WEBVTT - Dissolver of Worlds 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:15.520 My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.639 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:24.760 I wanted to start off today by thinking about containers. Um, 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.840 if you ever look around a chemistry lab, you will 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:30.560 notice that there are a lot of containers made out 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.839 of glass. Glass is often thought of as the chemist's friend, right, 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:38.839 And this is because silica, the stuff that glass is 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:43.080 made out of, is generally chemically inert, not much reacts 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:46.880 with it, and glass is insoluble in in most solvents, 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:50.320 so it's not going to be leeching off and contaminating 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.959 your sample. But this is not true in all cases. 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:56.760 For instance, there's a chemical we've talked about on the 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:02.320 show before called hydrofluoric acid, the solution of hydrogen fluoride 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:07.280 or HF in water. Hydrogen fluoride is known to actually 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.960 corrode even glass, and there's some pretty good videos of 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.479 this that you can look up, like the YouTube channel 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.800 called Periodic Videos has one you can find where they 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:21.320 dissolve a glass light bulb in hydrofluoric acid. I think 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:23.720 while it's plugged in by the way, at least when 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.399 when the glass finally does dissolve and break off in 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.880 the liquid, the the filament inside the light bulb, I 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.399 recall is like sparking in the solution in a in 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:36.120 a very weak and creepy and cursed way. But it's 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:40.199 kind of disturbing to see even glass, the ultimate non reactor, 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:45.280 just getting sort of cleanly sheared off of the top 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.080 of a bulb when it's dipped into this this stuff 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.320 and then falling away and eventually just dissolving into it 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.760 and becoming a liquid itself. Regular glass, of course, is 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.200 made of silica sand, which is made of silicon dioxide 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.680 or s I O two. And when you put glass 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:07.160 into hydrogen fluoride into hydrofluoric acid, the hydrogen fluoride breaks 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:10.799 the bonds between silicon and oxygen in silica to form 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:15.320 silicon fluorine molecules, and the result is the hydrofluoric acid 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.880 eats right through the solid glass. So here you've got 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:23.000 this material, this hydrofluoric acid, that cannot be stored in 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.640 regular glass containers, asked to be stored in special plastic 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.840 containers or it might eat right through the bottle and 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.600 spill everywhere. And this is a jumping off point for 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.080 today's episode, because we're gonna be looking at the question 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:40.400 of what if you were to imagine a material that 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:44.040 push the boundaries even farther, if there was a solvent 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:48.360 that that could dissolve everything it touched, a sort of 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:52.639 universal solvent. Yeah, this reminds me a lot of our 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.400 discussions in the episode on Hollywood Acid, the the way 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:01.320 that acids are sometimes presented in science fiction, especially where 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.960 you know, you you wound a xenomorph and it's so 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.799 it's it's acidic blood seems to just burn its way 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.800 through every floor, you know, all the way through the 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.000 hull of the ship. Yeah, precisely. So this will be 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:15.840 kind of a follow up episode to that, but but 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.200 going more into the history of alchemy and getting into 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:23.920 some of the metaphorical realms of these these high powered solvents. Now, 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.440 one thing this immediately relates to for me is a 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:30.920 thought experiment that I remember encountering from reading some of 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:35.800 the American philosopher Daniel Dennett's books, where um Dennett often 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:40.240 talks about a metaphor that he uses called universal acid. 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.960 It's basically exactly what we're describing here, but he doesn't 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.760 mean it in the pure material sense. Dinn It uses 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:52.120 the metaphor of universal acid to describe evolution. Uh And 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.120 and what he means there is that evolution is a 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:59.280 concept that is not just a theory in biology. It's 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.480 not just that when we discovered evolution by natural selection, 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.880 we could suddenly explain the diversity of species on Earth. 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:09.560 That was true, but it's also a sort of revolutionizing 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:13.480 world view that changes everything it touches. And so, to 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.040 quote from his summary of this idea from his book Intuition, 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:20.479 Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking, then it writes, universal 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.000 acid is a liquid so corrosive that it will eat 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.039 through anything. But what do you keep it in? It 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:30.080 dissolves glass bottles and stainless steel canisters as readily as 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.720 paper bags. What would happen if you somehow came upon 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.200 or created a dollop of universal acid? Would the whole 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.919 planet eventually be destroyed? What would it leave in its wake, 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.320 after everything had been transformed by its encounter with universal acid? 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.680 What would the world look like? Little did I realize 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.280 that in a few years I would encounter an idea, 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:55.919 Darwin's idea bearing an unmistakable likeness to universal acid. It 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.640 eats through just about every traditional concept and leaves and 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.039 it's ake a revolutionized worldview with most of the old 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:08.440 landmarks still recognizable but transformed in fundamental ways. Now there's 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:10.599 a thing here where the metaphor I think might not 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.159 be the best one because we get Hollywood acid in 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.320 our brains, and when we think about Hollywood acid, Hollywood 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.760 acid doesn't just change, it destroys. Right. You put the 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.600 Batman in the Hollywood acid, and then the Batman is 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.120 no more. Yeah, I mean a lot of this though, 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.560 comes down to what we I mean when you talk 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.640 about things being destroyed. This is a very human viewpoint. 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.880 This is a very um, you know, organism based view 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:41.080 of things. That the Batman is destroyed in the acid, 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:45.520 that the the car is destroyed in the crash, that 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.240 or that even something is destroyed when it is um 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.320 you know, when it's just you know, a metal or 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.039 something and it's melted or it's uh or it's it's 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.240 it's it's put into some sort of an acid or 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.600 a base. But you know, it comes back to the 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.599 basic principle that matter can neither be uh, you know, 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.320 ultimately created or destroyed. Everything can only be transferred into 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:09.280 different states or broken down into different components. That's a 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:11.400 very good point. Yeah, from the sort of like chemical 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.200 view of the universe, nothing has been destroyed. But I 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:15.800 think it'd be fair to say that if you put 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.640 a batman in a bunch of sulfuric acid and then 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.919 you liberate all the possible water molecules from him and 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.760 just leave a bunch of elemental carbon, you could say, 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:28.880 in some sense the Batman has been destroyed conceptually at least, yes, 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:30.880 But I mean part of that is the difficulty of 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:36.000 then recreating a Batman, right because I mean we would 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.400 have to recreate not only the batman's body, but the 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:42.479 batman's psyche, and and you know, they're huge hurdles, not 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.120 only in terms of of science and our understanding of psychology, 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.080 but also time. It's a huge time investment to try 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.360 and reproduce another Batman. Right. So, so I don't know 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.680 if maybe he could have used a slightly better metaphor 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:57.599 for what he means, because what I think he means 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:02.200 is not that the concept of evolution destroys everything it 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.760 touches in culture, but rather it reacts with everything it touches, 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.919 so it leaves the world we knew before populated with 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.400 the same questions and beauties and wonders, but each of 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:16.040 them sort of now upgraded by a chemical reaction, each 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.240 one sort of changed somewhat by our new perspective. You 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.640 have a new scientific way of thinking about everything that 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:25.640 you knew before. Yeah, you know, I think this this 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:30.600 argument it certainly applies to evolution very strongly, uh, but 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.360 you know, into evolutionary theory. But it also can apply 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:38.119 to even um hypotheses that we've discussed in the show before. 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.120 You know that take for instance, the bi cameral mind 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:44.640 hypothesis by Julian Jaynes. That's an example of of of 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.240 a very infectious idea that once you have, if you've 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:51.200 really gotten into it, you it kind of can change 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.000 the way you think about so many other things. Um. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.400 And then there are even less you know, controversial ideas 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.520 you can think of where once you have, once you 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:02.240 were alert to say a oh, just you know, certain 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:07.320 sort of psychological ideas about how, uh you know, how 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.880 things like trauma work. You know, uh, it changes the 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.040 way you think about reality because you have a different 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:18.240 way of processing what is going on or maybe going 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:21.520 on with other people and other groups and throughout history. Yeah, 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:23.560 and the metaphorical sense, I mean, all kinds of ideas 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.520 I guess can become a mental universal solvent. I would say, 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:31.560 in some cases with with more use than in other cases, 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.640 Like sometimes we just start applying an idea to everything 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.560 because it's really fun. And in other cases we start 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.520 applying idea an idea to everything because we get we 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:42.840 we at least believe we're getting some kind of analytical 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.120 use out of it, like it's explaining more than, uh 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.560 than than other ideas that we had previously. Though, I 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.880 would say, be cautious of any lens that seems to 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.360 explain everything, because you know, I've been through phases in 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:57.160 my life where I sort of like learned a new 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:00.839 analytical lens and then it explained literally everything in the world, 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.160 and you like, you gotta be careful about those that 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:07.400 usually you're probably over applying it at that point. Yeah, 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.240 Like if you if you just apply aliens to everything 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.600 and then it works, uh, you know, you're probably over 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.480 applying aliens. That There was actually a sample I hear 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.000 every now and then in a in a track where 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.400 someone saying, you know, listing off all these different things 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:24.360 and then saying you drop aliens in the middle of 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:30.720 this and everything makes sense. It's always true, it's always true. 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.040 So if there's anything like that, yeah, you could. You 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.800 can sub anything for aliens if if it feels like 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.480 it's a perfect fit, that it explains everything that it 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:42.640 that it absolutely dissolves all the mysteries of life. I 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:44.959 don't know, it's it's probably not the universal solvent you're 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.040 you're really looking for, but it can seem like that. 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.679 But before we get back into the fully metaphorical space, 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:51.920 but what it means to to think about the world 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.360 in terms of universal solvents. I want to actually consider 0:09:55.559 --> 0:10:00.760 the the real material possibility of a universal solvent, especially 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:05.680 as it has figured into the history of alchemy, because 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:09.280 you probably know, even if you only have passing familiarity 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:13.520 with alchemy, that one of the endeavors of of alchemy 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:17.920 was this search for these sort of dream materials, these 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.319 holy Grail materials. What an author I'm going to be 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:25.640 quoting extensively in this episode, Lawrence Prince you pa calls 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:30.480 chemical arcana or I guess singular chemical arcanum. Uh, these 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.600 objects that are sort of the mcguffin's of alchemy, that 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.760 alchemists were requesting after. So one of these things might 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.840 be like the Philosopher's stone that could allow you to 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:44.400 transmute base metals into gold in the process known as chrysopoeia, 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.000 or other ones might be Actually I talked about one 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.640 in an artifact episode and it did not too long ago. Uh, 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:53.959 it's an idea that you can find going all the 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:57.280 way back to ancient Roman times, and that's the concept 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:01.240 of bindable glass. The vitrum flexile or vitram malley abel 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.720 that you could have glass that could be soft like 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.280 dough and shaped into into different you know, in whatever 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:13.200 form you needed. But another similar arcanum in alchemy was 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:17.320 the concept of alcahest a, a substance that would act 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.840 as a universal solvent that could break down anything. Now, 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:26.240 discussing alchemy is always a little bit difficult because alchemy 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:31.800 is somewhat controversially defined, like different people try to insist 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.719 on different historical understandings of exactly what alchemy was. I mean, 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.280 you can't say it's a it's the general output of 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.040 a group of certain scholars who, you know, we're kind 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.319 of secretive about their beliefs, and we're working with materials 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.840 in some way. I mean, it's a kind of slippery concept. 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.280 In English, the term has been used to refer to 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.920 a huge range of beliefs and behaviors, with special emphasis 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.400 on things done that that sound in some way related 0:11:56.440 --> 0:12:00.760 to sorcery, the hermetic, and the occult, and these associations 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:05.080 are absolutely not without foundation. Like that they much of 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:10.040 alchemy does have a cult and and and supernatural connections. 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.160 But another way to understand alchemy, for the purpose of 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:15.400 today's discussion at least, is that it is sort of 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:21.240 the proto scientific study of the dynamics of matter, particularly 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:26.440 concerned with transforming one type of matter into another, or 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:31.760 of isolating the constituents of a material, refining that material, 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.640 or enhancing its alleged properties, many of which were perceived 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.440 to be medicinal properties. I know a lot of people 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:40.719 in the modern era when they think of alchemy, they 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.360 think about people trying to turn lead into gold, and 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.080 and then that was a preoccupation of some people in 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.400 the world of alchemy. But also a huge part of 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:52.800 alchemy was a quest for medicine. Yeah. I guess to 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.080 two points to make here. One is that we do 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.240 often think of that when we think of alchemy, we 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.520 may think of a very Western context and we think 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.160 of people who look like wizards, you know, or even 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.439 specifically someone who looks like John d or Merlin, Uh, 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.640 toying around with science stuff. You know. Alchemy is science 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.199 stuff what wizards do. Uh. But it is also important 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.480 to note that that alchemy and things that we think 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.000 of in English and in the end in the Western 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.360 world as alchemy, you also find that in the in 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.480 the Arabic world, you find it in in ancient India, 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.440 you find it in ancient China. Uh. You know. So 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:32.000 alchemy can very broadly speaking, be seen as kind of 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:36.280 a global effort of learned individuals trying to learn more 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:40.160 about the world. UM. I think one way to think 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:44.360 of it too is think about geographic discovery. You know, 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:49.040 people setting out on on voyages trying to find distant 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.560 lands that they know to exist or that they have 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:55.000 heard to exist. Sometimes those lands do not exist at all. 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.199 Sometimes they are you know, islands of the imagination. But 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.120 in the quest to find those play pass, they find 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.959 real places, and ultimately this leads up to a a 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:10.280 more accurate and more refined understanding of the world. Own 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:14.840 interesting parallel between alchemy and your geography example, during ages 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:17.400 of exploration, where people were trying to get away from 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.440 their home country and figure out what else was out 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.000 there that they could find. They're going to be different 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:27.240 levels of perspicacity and reporting, you know, because like whatever 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.280 you've discovered, you may think of this as, oh, this 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.000 is knowledge I want to share with the world, but 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.640 you may also very much think of it as like 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.280 kind of a trade secret or a personal you know, 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:38.960 this is something I've discovered for me and my my, 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.800 my buddies, and we need to keep this secret and 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.360 not let everybody else get in there before we've had 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.200 a good go at it. Yeah, and then you have 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.240 the pesky situation of discovering the real but keeping it 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:52.520 secret or only holding on to it because of your 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.440 quest for the unreal. And we've touched on this before 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.520 on the show before um when we were talking about 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:03.080 urine at point Urine's role in alchemy, and uh, I 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:07.600 forget that the exact chemical episode who were discussing this, 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:11.280 But the history of alchemy is full of such scenarios, 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.120 you know. I was reading actually a Washington Post article 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.960 from January eighteen by Ben Guarino that interviews Lawrence Princeipe, 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.440 one of the one of the authors who's an expert 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.720 on alchemy that we're gonna be talking about in this episode. 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.120 And this article ends up talking a lot about p 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:28.920 And there was one part I found very funny. It's 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.600 talking about how in Prince ships lab he will try 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:38.000 to recreate some some old alchemy experiments as they are 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.760 described from these these texts, and so the artifacts of 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.640 these experiments are all all around his lab. And and 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.800 the article here describes on the counter sits a large 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:53.240 jar labeled flim of acidified urine. More than one alchemical 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.640 recipe calls for human p. Prince Ship said. An old 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.760 Arabic text used the phrase the secret is within you, 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.920 probably meaning well, reader, you go figure it out, and 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.360 then it quotes Prince Bay saying, but some people took 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.760 that more literally, so they ended up using vast amounts 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:15.160 of urine. Oh that's wonderful. Yeah, and and that now 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.680 that they've had a second to reflect. It was our 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:22.200 our invention episode or episodes on the match stick. Uh yeah, 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:24.440 we're we're talking. I can't read. So we talked about 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.920 multiple people who used urine. At least one of the 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:31.040 main people who was big into two urine experiments. Was 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.440 was the seventeenth century alchemist Hinnig Brund who who really 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.160 specifically wanted urine from beer drinkers. So it was like, 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.280 go to the bars, get the drunks to p in 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.520 a bucket, and I will create a huge, a gigantic 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.680 vat of beer drinker p. Yes, yes it was brand 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:52.360 He was in search of the philosopher's stone um, but 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:56.040 in doing so made these discoveries that ultimately tied into 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.800 our understanding of a phosphorus and matches and you know, 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.720 or matches being the one of the the actual real 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.159 world and world inventions to come out of this quest 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.920 for the fantastic. But it's so funny also about like 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:12.360 misinterpreting the line the secret is within you two mean 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.920 like literally in your bladder, because that that seems just 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.159 just perfect for the world of alchemy, because there was 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:23.880 a lot of sort of metaphors and secret keeping, kind 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.000 of coded language. A Prince Pay talks in in one 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.040 interview I was watching about how you know, in some 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:36.240 alchemical texts, the author will not say the conventional names 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:40.679 of the chemicals that he's talking about. He might instead 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.720 of saying nitric acid. He will say the red dragon, 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.800 and instead of saying, um, you know, like add nitric 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.159 acid to this solution, he would say something like allow 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.719 the red dragon to consume the white eagle or something. So, 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:56.240 you know, it's kind of you have to like dig 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.399 through and figure out what all of these code words 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.520 refer to, not in every case, but in many. Yeah. 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.040 So it it makes looking back on some of these 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:08.920 recipes and ideas oftentimes confusing because like I'm reminded of 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.359 of the recipe that I looked at once for the 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.600 creation of a homunculous and it has this kind of 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.080 coded language in it. So sometimes it's hard to determine, 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.439 you know, how much of what you're looking at is 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:26.520 just abject occultism and in sorcery, and how much is 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:31.080 coded material referring to something more closely related to to 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.880 the world of chemistry and reality. Oh right, So like 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.399 is it actually asking for like a bat swing or 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.040 is it or is that a code for like saltpeter 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:43.760 or something. Yeah, And I guess you can you can 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:47.439 look at similar situations throughout our you know, the world 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:51.920 of language and spirituality and all. But um, I guess 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.040 one of the things to drive home with with alchemy 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:59.760 is that, yes, we're talking about ultimately a proto scientific sphere. Uh. One. 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.679 You know, this is one though, in which scientific considerations 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:08.080 are either inherently mingled with philosophic and supernatural ideas, or 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.400 at the very least are heavily susceptible to flowing into 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:16.040 those subjects. And as the author um Mercia Eliade put 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.520 it in the Forge and the Crucible quote, alchemy posed 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.960 as a sacred science, whereas chemistry came into its own 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:27.240 when substances had shed their sacred attributes. Oh that's interesting, 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.120 I mean, yeah, One thing I do want to talk 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.359 about as we go on is the ways that different 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:36.120 uh practitioners of the alchemy period didn't They weren't just 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:42.440 looking for chemical formulas, but they really thought chemicals meant something. Yeah. Yeah, 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.720 And you you can imagine too where this gets. You know, 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:49.000 we can't look at something without working without you know, 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.560 without our brain beginning to ponder over the possible metaphors there. 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.159 You know, how does this relate to me? Um? And 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:57.520 maybe we're we get we're a little further from that now, 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.000 but you know, we have to sort of put ourselves 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:06.600 in the mindset of of older Uh, you know, experimentors. 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:08.919 And uh, this is where I want to bring up 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.840 some of the some of the thoughts that Terence McKenna 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:15.680 brought to the table concerning alchemy. Um and and I 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:17.560 think he I think he made he made some good, 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:19.480 good points on the topic. He gave a series of 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:22.800 lectures on alchemy in the late nineties um and touched 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.000 on this. And I want to read a quote from 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:28.520 it from a transcription. In this he is citing Iliade, 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.600 but also putting his own spin on things. Quote. The 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.399 shaman is the brother of the smith. The smith is 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.520 the metallurgist, the worker in metals. And this is where 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.760 alchemy has its roots. We who take this for granted, 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.720 have no idea how mysterious and powerful this seemed to 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.359 ancient people, and in fact, it would seem so to 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:48.880 us if we had anything to do with it. I mean, 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.399 how many of us are welders or casters of metal. 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.960 It's a magical process to take, for instance, cinnabar, a 0:20:55.040 --> 0:20:57.800 red soft ore, and by the mere act of heating 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:00.680 it in a furnace, it will sweat liquid mercury onto 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:05.760 its surface. We have unconsciously imbibed the ontology of science, 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.280 where we have mind firmly separated it out from the world. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.199 We take this for granted. It's effortless because it is 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.200 the ambiance of the civilization that we've been born into. 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:17.639 But in an earlier age, some writers would say, a 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.639 more naive age. But I wonder about that mind and 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:24.359 matter were seen to be alloyed together throughout nature, so 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:27.159 that the sweating of mercury out of cinnabar is not 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.119 a material process. It is a process in which the 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:34.000 mind and the observations of the metal worker maintain an 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:37.040 important role. Well, I don't know what to think about 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:39.600 that claim about the idea the role of the mind 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:43.560 in the transformations, but I think he's absolutely right that, 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.639 Like you know, it's one of the frustrations of the 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:50.480 modern world is that we rely so on so much 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:55.560 um science and technology in the background of our lives 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:57.720 that we can lose sight of the sheer wonder that 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:01.520 that is on, you know, visible if you're actually watching 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:05.720 these processes unfold in firsthand. Yeah, I mean, we talked 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:08.880 about technological metaphors all the time on the show. How 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:12.560 how often we think about our own cognition in terms 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:17.719 of computers and cameras and digital recordings and so forth, 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:20.960 uh and photoshop, etcetera. You know, and and these can 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.320 all be useful, but they can also distort and create 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.880 a a distorted version of of what's actually going on 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:32.960 inside the mind or outside of it. And yeah, I 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:34.720 think you know, if you were to put yourself in 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.320 someone who day in and day out, was not using 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:39.639 an iPhone, was not using a PC or a GO 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:43.760 or a Mac or whatever, but was instead, uh working 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:47.720 with the base materials and with metals and chemicals and 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:51.320 trying to figure out their properties. Like this would be 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:54.679 the primary way that they would also think about the mind. 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:57.280 I mean it, it makes perfect sense to me, Like 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.639 these would be there, This would be their telephone, their television, 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:03.760 their computer. These would be the ways that they might 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:06.680 then self reflect. Well, yeah, I mean it's it's apparent 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:11.080