Speaker 1: Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 3: These are our stories, Dundun.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm Kara Klink.
Speaker 2: And I'm Liza Traeger and we're here talking SVU. The
Speaker 2: True Crimes are based on and we are union strong
Speaker 2: with SAG and WGA. There are no guests and holy
Speaker 2: that'll change soon.
Speaker 3: Guess what. I went to picket last week.
Speaker 1: I went to Picket with This with Sagan WGA at
Speaker 1: Disney and I ran into Robert brooks Cohen the pod. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he lives in La now full time. And we chatted
Speaker 1: for a minute and I was like so happy to
Speaker 1: see him. For those who don't know, he was a
Speaker 1: writer on SVU and he was a great guest.
Speaker 3: So if you want to go back in time and
Speaker 3: check that one out.
Speaker 1: We'll definitely have him on again one day post strike.
Speaker 1: I feel like he has a lot of tea that
Speaker 1: he has yet to spill. But yeah, and he kind
Speaker 1: of went viral because he made this like he made
Speaker 1: this like letter board that said like in the like
Speaker 1: in the television industry, writers are considered especially important or whatever.
Speaker 1: It was like this whole thing he did that was
Speaker 1: based on the sview thing, and it like went viral,
Speaker 1: like all these people were posting it, and Warren Light
Speaker 1: posted a picture of him with it too and stuff.
Speaker 1: So because I know he was picketing in New York also,
Speaker 1: but I think he's LA now, which is exciting. I
Speaker 1: told him we'll see him at our next LA show
Speaker 1: and we're post to coast right now.
Speaker 2: Kara is in LA. I am in New York having
Speaker 2: the time of my life. I you know, everyone leaves
Speaker 2: New York in August, and I came for Labor Day.
Speaker 2: You know, everyone leaves for Labor Day. They're in the
Speaker 2: Hans Ends. I have the best time of my fucking life.
Speaker 2: Like New York has so many different like you think
Speaker 2: of the concrete jungle. Okay, see that wasn't even on
Speaker 2: the rhythm. You don't have to edit that. That was
Speaker 2: not copyritted, And I said, copyrightted. Things are going wild
Speaker 2: over here. But for you know, I went to Red Hook,
Speaker 2: which is a cool neighborhood on the water, and then
Speaker 2: the next day, I went to a hotel pool and
Speaker 2: then the next day I took an hour something ferry
Speaker 2: to the beach, to the rockways. So it's like what
Speaker 2: you think New York is. There's just so much ocean
Speaker 2: and water and food.
Speaker 1: When I lived there, I like never went to the beach.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I went to Coney Island once,
Speaker 1: but I just like road rise, I didn't really go
Speaker 1: in the water.
Speaker 2: Like, so it's, you know, what's fucked up. I've been
Speaker 2: to the beach more in New York than I have
Speaker 2: in La.
Speaker 3: Oh. I mean, I never go to the beach in
Speaker 3: LA It's too much of a process. I should.
Speaker 2: My goal is I gotta go one more time. It
Speaker 2: really But that's the thing. The hotel pool so nice
Speaker 2: because like it's the it's the it's the getting to
Speaker 2: the beach. The walk back, you know, it's the classic
Speaker 2: yak back. That's like your sandy. You're sweaty, it's done.
Speaker 2: You have to put everything back, you know. It's yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: you hard, it's hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hate being sandy, but I do like the beach. Well,
Speaker 1: I would go with you during a week day. I
Speaker 1: just don't want to fuck with the weekends. And taking
Speaker 1: my kids and stuff like Oscar still naps, Like I'm
Speaker 1: not doing all that.
Speaker 3: They were not invited. They I want that to be
Speaker 3: very ch So that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying in general. With me going to the beach,
Speaker 1: everyone's always like, bring your kids to the beach. I'm like,
Speaker 1: not right now, not until the knaps are done. I
Speaker 1: think I don't want to do it. It sounds so
Speaker 1: annoying to have your kids be all sandy.
Speaker 3: Well, the best part was on the ferry back.
Speaker 2: Me and the girls were sitting not on the seats
Speaker 2: but on like the white containers that hold the safety jackets,
Speaker 2: like the lat pockets. So we're sitting because we want
Speaker 2: to look. We want to look at the ocean. A
Speaker 2: group of very religious Jewish women stand in front of us,
Speaker 2: and then this other woman and the woman goes, oh,
Speaker 2: did we block your view?
Speaker 3: But it's like, what, it's fine, you know, you gotta stand.
Speaker 2: If you want to stand, we're gonna we're gonna ruin
Speaker 2: the teens view. No, But then the woman's skirt kept
Speaker 2: flowing up with the wind and she kept mooning us
Speaker 2: with her full lavender underwear and to see a modest
Speaker 2: religious woman's butt over and over again.
Speaker 3: What a day. So, hey, you know what only in
Speaker 3: New York. That's so funny. Oh my god, my parents
Speaker 3: just landed in Israel this morning. No, yeah, I didn't
Speaker 3: even know they were going. Yeah.
Speaker 1: My mom is like, oh, we have a room overlooking
Speaker 1: the Mediterranean.
Speaker 3: I just what I need. I was like, yeah, Mom,
Speaker 3: go I have at it.
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, they my dad has this like cousin
Speaker 1: who's like a Holocaust survivor and lives there and is
Speaker 1: like ninety eight, and I think they just wanted to
Speaker 1: go see her one more time.
Speaker 3: So they're seeing her and hopefully I'll get a dip
Speaker 3: into the Mediterranean. Yeah, I hope. So you're not watching
Speaker 3: Below Decks Sailing yet, are you?
Speaker 1: I mean, down here, I'm just keeping track of all
Speaker 1: the near missed sexual assaults that are happening.
Speaker 3: But I'm not. I'm not watching. I watched well what
Speaker 3: about Roney?
Speaker 1: Okay, So I fell asleep last night halfway through the episode.
Speaker 1: So I'm ei they're getting ready for Anguila, but they
Speaker 1: haven't gone yet.
Speaker 2: And Guila's just the weird it feels. It doesn't roll
Speaker 2: off my tongue. No, it's a hard word to say.
Speaker 1: But I've seen pictures of friends that have gone there,
Speaker 1: and it does look pretty awesome.
Speaker 3: I mean, I would love to.
Speaker 1: Go any island would be fucking fantastic. Take it It's island,
Speaker 1: I'm coming.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I used to babysit on that island a lot of island, yeah,
Speaker 2: because it's you know, it's Upper East and it's across
Speaker 2: from some hospitals, so I would go babysit for.
Speaker 3: Some doctors, some residents, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1: My friend Andrea rose And is from there, and we
Speaker 1: were just talking about it.
Speaker 3: I just saw her recently. She grew up there, and.
Speaker 1: I'm always like, what was that like, Like they don't
Speaker 1: even have a school past sixth grade. I don't think
Speaker 1: like they have to go into the city for like school,
Speaker 1: but like it's such a I don't even think I've
Speaker 1: ever been there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, New York is And we passed Governor's Island
Speaker 2: on the ferry. I mean, it really is just multi faceted.
Speaker 2: I had the best cheeseburger of my life a Red
Speaker 2: Hook tavern, Like ooh yeah, it was just kind of
Speaker 2: too good to be true. And then I went to
Speaker 2: Friends South yesterday. There was some more Toadella, my favorite.
Speaker 3: You know, like, I'm so glad you had such a
Speaker 3: magical weekend I have been.
Speaker 1: I actually do want to bring this up to the
Speaker 1: listeners because I'm sure I'm going to get a ton
Speaker 1: of messages with uh suggestions. But I have been potty
Speaker 1: training my son all weekend doing the pants off method.
Speaker 1: My husband woke up with an illness on the first
Speaker 1: day of body training and has been in bed the
Speaker 1: entire time. We just found out he has pneumonia. Don't worry,
Speaker 1: he's in recovery. He's got medication. But like I've been
Speaker 1: like single handedly potty training a child while dealing with
Speaker 1: another child. He's peeing everywhere. I hate every second of
Speaker 1: it and I want to die. But you know, I
Speaker 1: sent him to school today and told his teachers we're
Speaker 1: fifty to fifty, so good luck.
Speaker 3: We'll see what happens. But anyway, it's just been like.
Speaker 1: A never ending weekend of blah because that's all I've
Speaker 1: been doing. So I'm really glad that you have a good,
Speaker 1: counterbalancing good weekend too.
Speaker 2: And what's happening or oh yeah, why is he pissing
Speaker 2: everywhere and taking the shits on the floor.
Speaker 1: He hasn't taken a shit on the floor at our house. Luckily,
Speaker 1: he has actually been proactive about shitting in the body.
Speaker 1: But peeing is like it's like he doesn't know what's happening,
Speaker 1: Like he's just talking to me while it's happening.
Speaker 3: He's just like he was. I took him.
Speaker 1: I took him because on the last day, the third day,
Speaker 1: you're allowed to go on short outings. So I took
Speaker 1: him to our friend's house and he immediately peed on
Speaker 1: this like there's these couches called the Nugget and they're like,
Speaker 1: you know, they kids can build like forts with them.
Speaker 1: They're like multi piece couches or like little couches for kids.
Speaker 1: And he was climbing on it and just pete. I
Speaker 1: was like, I've never seen you pee like in motion
Speaker 1: while doing something, Like, what is wrong with.
Speaker 3: What's going on with you?
Speaker 1: So I'm just really trying to keep it cool, which
Speaker 1: is what my potty training course told me is to
Speaker 1: keep it cool. So I'm like, oh, hey, man, you
Speaker 1: pete in your pants. You're supposed to do it in
Speaker 1: the potty maybe next time. Anyway, I'm supposed to act
Speaker 1: like that doesn't bother me at all, and it honestly
Speaker 1: is killing me, you know, because I don't like pee
Speaker 1: on my body or on my hands or when I
Speaker 1: step in it.
Speaker 3: I don't like it.
Speaker 2: There was a pea incident with potty training on the
Speaker 2: Real House Says of New York.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I saw that. I got to that part
Speaker 1: that actually made me feel a little bit better. I
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, I guess kids be pissing.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: I knew I had something to bring to the table,
Speaker 2: and it just hit me, you know. Besides bragging about
Speaker 2: my gorgeous labor day weekend, which I hope everyone had,
Speaker 2: I also want to thank everyone that wished me a
Speaker 2: happy birth. I saw all of your nice posts and messages,
Speaker 2: so thank you so much for that.
Speaker 3: I appreciate it. I am old and I am cool.
Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, my birthday is tomorrow, so
Speaker 1: I expect the same verb as you gave Lisa.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we are competitive with birthday wishes. We will be
Speaker 2: counting the amount of posts per person. But you did
Speaker 2: a great job on my slideshow. That was a nice
Speaker 2: little surprise to wait Ojay. I was really surprised by that.
Speaker 2: And you know, Kara and our friend Laurence sent me
Speaker 2: some cupcakes to the suburbs.
Speaker 3: Of Chicago, and I have another thing here for you.
Speaker 1: I'm actually like looking at it right now, but it's
Speaker 1: a little silly thing that I want to give you
Speaker 1: for your birthday. But I'll wait till you return from
Speaker 1: your travels, of course, so listen.
Speaker 2: After the day at the pool, my friend who I'm
Speaker 2: staying with, went to bed at eight pm, so I yes,
Speaker 2: eight pm. She left me and I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: but I wasn't gonna go out. So I watched the
Speaker 2: Telemarketers the whole three part series. Then I watched the
Speaker 2: documentary HQ, which was about this trivia phone app. And
Speaker 2: then I watched a four part series on Sean White,
Speaker 2: the snowboarder, and I'm into snowboarding. Map he is my icon,
Speaker 2: my idol. I pray to the at whatever to Sean White.
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything. And then Julia, who I'm saying with,
Speaker 2: is like, yeah, we yeah, he's a big deal.
Speaker 3: Like I didn't realize. Like I knew he was an
Speaker 3: Olympic gold medalist.
Speaker 2: Of course I knew he was very good, but a
Speaker 2: revolutionary in the sport. He is the reason snowboarding is
Speaker 2: what it is today. His family is incredible. They are
Speaker 2: all so tight knit and like even the sister in
Speaker 2: the doc was like, yeah, he's obviously incredibly talented, but
Speaker 2: if he didn't have our parents, this might not happen.
Speaker 2: They got a van, they would live in a van
Speaker 2: and just drive from mountain to mountain, and they would
Speaker 2: fly as a whole family like supporting him. He is
Speaker 2: so fucking cool. I just really enjoyed the documentary. Of
Speaker 2: course I cried, you know, he got his mama Lexus
Speaker 2: and so I I bawled. But the injuries he's had.
Speaker 2: But then it wasn't enough. So I'm sleeping in the
Speaker 2: living room. But I couldn't sleep in the morning, so
Speaker 2: I'm on YouTube and Julia comes out and she goes,
Speaker 2: are you watching Sean White videos?
Speaker 3: And I go, yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Go get ready, get ready for my snowboard era. I've
Speaker 2: never been interested in winter sports in any capacity, but
Speaker 2: I think I might try snowboarding.
Speaker 3: I want to kind of try it now. That's so fun.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, more about how you and Rosie are
Speaker 1: freaking soulmates. She literally yesterday goes, mom, can I try snowboarding?
Speaker 3: And I was like, sure, I.
Speaker 1: Don't know how to snowboard, but maybe Uncle Kevin can
Speaker 1: teach us because my brother snowboards. And she was like, okay,
Speaker 1: I go, but just so you know, when you first
Speaker 1: start snowboarding, you land on your butt a lot. And
Speaker 1: she was like, okay, I'm ready. Well that's maybe me
Speaker 1: and Rosie could take a lesson. Yeah, and I'll together
Speaker 1: drink drink a little spike hot chocolate. Wait, I've met
Speaker 1: Sean White.
Speaker 3: Wait get the in Torino.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in Torino, in bardonek Ya, I went to I
Speaker 1: went with Katie Couric to for to interview him the
Speaker 1: Flying Tomato.
Speaker 3: But I didn't really.
Speaker 1: Know, like I knew he was famous, but I was
Speaker 1: like phi, you know, like I wasn't really like.
Speaker 3: Exactly I didn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't realize what And because he pushed the sport
Speaker 2: because he started practicing with foam pits and just like
Speaker 2: now you know, the whole point of the four part
Speaker 2: doc is like the last run and it's his fifth
Speaker 2: Olympics and like, you know, just his retirement ride. But
Speaker 2: the youth are so good because of him.
Speaker 1: He elevated the sport and so now all these teenagers
Speaker 1: are incredible doing tricks that his old, you know, his old.
Speaker 3: He's thirty five.
Speaker 2: His body he can't do it, he can't do it,
Speaker 2: all these injuries. But his physical therapy is amazing. And
Speaker 2: she works with Serena and Venus and they have such
Speaker 2: a lovely relationship. His coach is cool.
Speaker 3: And he's dating Nina Jabriv which people with her. Yeah,
Speaker 3: she's Vampire Diaries.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she dated Ian smolder Holder from Smolder Holder.
Speaker 3: I knew it, and you didn't say it.
Speaker 2: I was going to say it, but yeah, because I
Speaker 2: found an article and it was like all Nina's exes
Speaker 2: and their estimated wealth like net worth, and his is,
Speaker 2: of course more than anybody's. He's worth sixty five million dollars.
Speaker 2: I mean his Red Bull contract was for one hundred
Speaker 2: million dollars.
Speaker 1: He's like Tony Hawk with skateboarding, right exactly. And they
Speaker 1: lived Michael to each other, Oh my god, because he
Speaker 1: called he goes.
Speaker 3: I got a video game too.
Speaker 2: But like I guess I knew he had long hair
Speaker 2: because my favorite clip of him is he's doing a
Speaker 2: post Olympic interview and he's like the flight was wild.
Speaker 3: Everyone's giving me attention.
Speaker 2: I've already said this on the pod before, but I
Speaker 2: do love it, and they did put it in the
Speaker 2: dock and he goes, everyone is giving me drinks and
Speaker 2: the newscast goes, drinks, aren't you nineteen?
Speaker 3: And he goes, hah, mountain dews baby.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like so, and then she goes, did he just
Speaker 1: call me baby?
Speaker 3: But I don't know.
Speaker 2: I was really inspired. It was really cool. He is, yeah,
Speaker 2: and then he's friends with Aaron Paul. I don't know,
Speaker 2: it just was sports are really easy material for inspire
Speaker 2: inspirational docks, like thirty for thirties. Any kind of sport
Speaker 2: thing is usually invigorating. I would say, yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 2: you know, and then his mom was really tight with
Speaker 2: money and didn't want him to spend. And then finally
Speaker 2: he goes, whatever, mom, and then bought two Lamborghinis. But
Speaker 2: all this footage but the telemarket So I had like
Speaker 2: a documentary Saturday night.
Speaker 1: How was the telemarketing thing? Because I'm dying to watch that.
Speaker 1: But everything that those Saftie Brothers guys make like make
Speaker 1: me feel like I'm on cocaine and like I have
Speaker 1: to so I'm going to be agitated, didn't make it.
Speaker 1: They producing it.
Speaker 3: So basically it's this like teen teen scumbag.
Speaker 2: He loved graffiti and his dad was like, you gotta
Speaker 2: do it, you gotta get a job. And who's going
Speaker 2: to hire a dirt bag team? This telemarketing place that
Speaker 2: is a scam.
Speaker 3: I mean, they're.
Speaker 2: Highly illegal and they are they're doing fundraising for the
Speaker 2: Fraternal Order of the Police and the it's obviously intertwined
Speaker 2: with the police and unions, and they're taking people's money
Speaker 2: and spending it on golf excursion.
Speaker 3: It's really fucked.
Speaker 2: But so basically, but this teen wanted to be a
Speaker 2: documentary filmmaker. So it's so much footage of this place,
Speaker 2: so it's like that's how it started. It was just
Speaker 2: him as a teen getting all this footage. But a
Speaker 2: lot of the people that work there are ex cons
Speaker 2: because no one hires felons, but this place, there's no
Speaker 2: standards in any way, so these felons come out, they
Speaker 2: get jobs. So it's felons and teens and the best
Speaker 2: salesman on the force a heroin addict, so he's like
Speaker 2: falling asleep on heroin at work. They're sex workers selling
Speaker 2: their goods in the back like it was wild.
Speaker 3: It's like there's a camaraderie.
Speaker 2: So it's like using all this footage and then the
Speaker 2: dude on Heroin Pat is like, you know, this company
Speaker 2: is shady as fuck, and they start investigating, and so
Speaker 2: then they lose him because he's an addict, and they
Speaker 2: they can't find him for eight years, and then he
Speaker 2: hits them back up and they start with their investigation
Speaker 2: again and they start talking to government people and all
Speaker 2: this stuff. But what's a little wild is they get
Speaker 2: really cool meetings and they have a lot of evidence, but.
Speaker 3: He's not good at it.
Speaker 2: So there's a scene where Pat, this heroin dude is
Speaker 2: like interviewing someone and the voiceover goes and then we
Speaker 2: realized he wasn't very good at this, but they continue
Speaker 2: to do it. So they're like trying to do Michael
Speaker 2: Moore stuff and they're breaking. They're like entering a police
Speaker 2: union conference and he's like going up to a guy.
Speaker 2: He's like Yates, Yates, Yates, and the guy's like, I'm
Speaker 2: not Yeates, and they go outside. He goes he's denying
Speaker 2: who he even is, and they're like his name is Yaus,
Speaker 2: It's not Yates, you know.
Speaker 3: So it's like they're bad at it.
Speaker 2: So they get all the information and it is like,
Speaker 2: no one wants to fuck with the unions. At the
Speaker 2: end of the day, there were there were like national
Speaker 2: investigations and the company has got in trouble, but no
Speaker 2: one wants to fuck with these unions. But it is
Speaker 2: good and there's a lot of cool info and footage,
Speaker 2: and I like the friendship and I you know, camaraderie
Speaker 2: at a workplace when you're young is special. Yes, Like
Speaker 2: I waitress set a coke den restaurant and it's like
Speaker 2: there is like fun, you know, stealing clam chowders and
Speaker 2: eating them in the back with saying, oh no, that
Speaker 2: was fun. But it's they're not good at investigative reporting,
Speaker 2: and so every interview they get ends up the bust.
Speaker 3: But they are right and it is corrupt and it
Speaker 3: is cool.
Speaker 2: So I think the Safti brothers like joined and probably
Speaker 2: made it better and produced. But it's because of all
Speaker 2: this old footage she had of this why I'm.
Speaker 3: Not putting I gotta watch it. I can't wait.
Speaker 2: And the heroin dude looks like someone we know, and
Speaker 2: it is very funny.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, now you got Now I wait, let me
Speaker 1: watch it and make my guests.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I also found out through this that before you watched it,
Speaker 1: we talked about it with our friends, and we found
Speaker 1: out that our friend was a telemarketer and was like
Speaker 1: very good at it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I did fundraising for my university and I was good
Speaker 2: at it.
Speaker 3: But I don't think. But I believed in it in
Speaker 3: a way.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I called alumni and was like, give a few bucks,
Speaker 1: you know, like I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't think.
Speaker 1: I was like, I wasn't selling somebody, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: a website that's not real, like jen Shaw or whatever.
Speaker 2: No, but it also like they had all the scripts
Speaker 2: and it's they've really they're terrible people. And then some
Speaker 2: people's faces are blurred in the interviews, like the people
Speaker 2: that own these companies like it. Oh, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: The HQ one was interesting too. I didn't know anything
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 3: I played HQ religious.
Speaker 2: Of course you did. Yeah, that's not I don't have
Speaker 2: a doubt in my mind about that.
Speaker 3: I was obsessed with HG.
Speaker 2: Well do you know the story of the demise and
Speaker 2: all of that. No, I don't even know what happened.
Speaker 2: Why did I stop playing?
Speaker 1: Like why, I mean, I guess why do we stop
Speaker 1: When did I stop doing Marco Polo? When did we
Speaker 1: stop playing house party? I mean, you know, like there's
Speaker 1: all these little.
Speaker 2: Like no but those like someone lost their life, Like
Speaker 2: this is insane. There's there's wild shit in this doc.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm meaning about.
Speaker 3: Yes, true, the HQ doc Betary is true crime. I
Speaker 3: had no idea.
Speaker 1: It's all true. That's what we've learned. Everything is funny.
Speaker 1: Everything that's a true crime. You know, once the Housewives
Speaker 1: crossed over. Well, I also want to say thanks to
Speaker 1: everybody that came out to our shows in Raleigh, Charlotte,
Speaker 1: d C, Atlanta. We are back out in October. Get
Speaker 1: those tickets Boston. We need you guys to show up.
Speaker 1: We're at the wilbur We maybe bit off more than
Speaker 1: we could chew and we need to fill those seats.
Speaker 1: And then cle We're at a We're in Toronto for
Speaker 1: the first time. We're at a ton of cool places.
Speaker 1: So go to That's Messed Up Live dot com and
Speaker 1: check out where we're going in October and come see us.
Speaker 3: And then yes, the New.
Speaker 1: York tickets are going fast. We might add another show
Speaker 1: if you guys keep If you guys keep it, up. So,
Speaker 1: but get those New York ticks and we'll let you
Speaker 1: know what happens with that should we get.
Speaker 2: Started, and I'll be in Brooklyn October eleventh at the Bellhouse.
Speaker 3: There's some tickets left, not a lot. I would get that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, get those Bellhouse tickets. I'm doing an opening set.
Speaker 1: It's gonna blow your fucking mind. Just I mean, we'll
Speaker 1: do what I can.
Speaker 3: All right. We have a great.
Speaker 1: Episode for you guys, though, so stay right where you are.
Speaker 1: You guessed it, guys. We did Born Psychopath last week,
Speaker 1: and obviously we're hitting you with the two parter. We're
Speaker 1: doing Postgraduate Psychopath Today, season twenty two, the second part
Speaker 1: of a I don't know two episodes that with eight
Speaker 1: seasons in between. This one aired May twenty twenty one,
Speaker 1: and you can tell there's COVID like precautions all over
Speaker 1: this episode, so you could tell they shot it during
Speaker 1: that time.
Speaker 3: But I don't even think I noticed that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there are screens. There's people talking about masks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw the screen. I don't know why the
Speaker 2: masks and registered so wild.
Speaker 1: Well, so if you have not listened to last week's episode,
Speaker 1: you probably should.
Speaker 3: If this is your first episode.
Speaker 1: That's pretty wild of our podcast, but go back because
Speaker 1: this is part of a two parter. So we open
Speaker 1: with a disclaimer on this episode that it's a fictional
Speaker 1: story and not based on anyone as usual. Sure, Jan,
Speaker 1: So the episode opens with some sepia toned footage of
Speaker 1: the last episode, so eight seasons earlier, Born Psychopath. It's
Speaker 1: refreshing our memory Henry's being sent to a treatment facility
Speaker 1: until he's eighteen years old. Cut to present day, it's
Speaker 1: December of twenty twenty and how So I.
Speaker 2: Am curious did they come up with this in the
Speaker 2: writer's room? Did Warren Light want him back? Were they
Speaker 2: like this would be a great idea like that? I
Speaker 2: am so curious, And maybe we need to hit up
Speaker 2: Mole because I want to know how they decided to
Speaker 2: do this. They've never really done this before outside I
Speaker 2: know William Lewis, but that's so connected. They've never done this,
Speaker 2: and I am curious how they came up with this
Speaker 2: and that the boy agreed.
Speaker 3: To come back and all of that. So, yeah, I
Speaker 3: am too.
Speaker 1: That'll be a question when we finally get Warren Light
Speaker 1: on the podcast. I'm sure after the strike is resolved,
Speaker 1: he's going to be dying to talk. So it's December
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, the heart of the pandemic. Henry Messner
Speaker 1: is standing in family court addressing a judge and guess what,
Speaker 1: he's eighteen now, and he is describing how he's been
Speaker 1: in the facility since he was ten. And by the way,
Speaker 1: he doesn't go to Vermont like the way they talk
Speaker 1: about it, and the thing he definitely, I think, is
Speaker 1: in a facility that's like out on Long Island or
Speaker 1: somewhere in New York because you see it later in
Speaker 1: the title cards. And he's like, when I got here,
Speaker 1: I lacked remorse, empathy, impulse control.
Speaker 3: I was a pathological liar. I had anger issues.
Speaker 1: And we see a flashback of Henry being a creepy
Speaker 1: little psycho, like we just all watched this episode last week.
Speaker 1: And now his therapist is on the sands saying that
Speaker 1: he's been an exemplary patient for the past five years, curious,
Speaker 1: proactive in his recovery, and she is just standing behind
Speaker 1: a free piece of plexiglass so you can tell its
Speaker 1: pandemic vibes, and she I.
Speaker 3: Don't know if you remember her.
Speaker 2: She's from that episode with Adam Beach where Chesterlake ends
Speaker 2: up murdering people.
Speaker 3: She's in the society with him.
Speaker 1: Oh, she's like, Okay, I knew I recognized her. The
Speaker 1: actress's name is Deirdre love Joy, which I was like,
Speaker 1: that's just a cute name, but I didn't actually look
Speaker 1: her up, like to see that.
Speaker 3: That's interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was the one that was in the Secret
Speaker 2: Society of Detectives in Philadelphia with Yeah, which is based
Speaker 2: sound like because she sounds familiar, she looks she seems
Speaker 2: what's her name again, Deirdre love Joy because love Joy.
Speaker 3: Is also from the Simpsons, Reverend love Joy.
Speaker 2: Oh, but she's really familiar.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she has so many credits. Oh yeah, she's been
Speaker 1: working Blacklist sview. Oh wait, she's been on a couple
Speaker 1: s views. Hold on, Oh my god. She was in Slaves.
Speaker 1: She was in Slaves season one, which we've covered based
Speaker 1: on Colleen stan She plays a detective. Then she's the
Speaker 1: same detective in season two an episode called Secrets, and
Speaker 1: then she plays someone named Penelope Fielding in Cold that's
Speaker 1: the one you're talking about, because those are cold cases.
Speaker 1: And then she's back as doctor Mackie. Uh so they
Speaker 1: obviously love her looking at her stuff.
Speaker 2: This is interesting because I just watched Girls and she's
Speaker 2: in an episode of Girls, So I feel like that
Speaker 2: might be the connection. Oh okay, and I had because
Speaker 2: she seemed so familiar to me. But also she was
Speaker 2: in Orange just the New Black for a couple episodes.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, and she's done like an American horror story.
Speaker 3: She's been working, so she's like, no one could be like.
Speaker 2: Oh, she plays one of Hannah's aunts and girls.
Speaker 1: Oh right, right right, that's no one could be hype
Speaker 1: manning Henry Mesterner more than this woman.
Speaker 3: She is like, he is the shit.
Speaker 2: And this surminds me of Ed Kemper, you know, who
Speaker 2: was able to he was so smart because a lot
Speaker 2: of these psychopaths are really high IQ and so Ed Kemper,
Speaker 2: you know, killed his like grandma and grandpa as a
Speaker 2: youth and was able to trick everyone, become everyone's favorite guy,
Speaker 2: and they feel good about themselves because they're like, Wow,
Speaker 2: I'm an amazing psychologist.
Speaker 3: I cured this little psycho and they know how to
Speaker 3: fake it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So this reminds me of Ed Kemper, which is a
Speaker 2: case that we covered. If you know, if you're new
Speaker 2: to this pod and you want to go explore. We
Speaker 2: already gave you a couple examples.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a cool, it's a it's a it's a
Speaker 1: it's fucking psycho, but it's a very I love the
Speaker 1: Ed Kemper stuff.
Speaker 3: It's so interesting.
Speaker 2: Well because Slaves also that you mentioned, was one of
Speaker 2: our first episodes we've ever done and still haunts me.
Speaker 2: I think about Colleen stan weekly. Yeah, I think about
Speaker 2: her all the time. It really affected me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's a yeah, horrific case and the people can survive
Speaker 1: come back from the edge of such horror.
Speaker 2: Oh you know what this actress though to come back
Speaker 2: to it. She was sixty episodes of The Wire, so
Speaker 2: because people will yell if we didn't sixty they know.
Speaker 1: Okay, you guys know The Wire is my blind spot.
Speaker 1: I never watched it, so but that is that is
Speaker 1: a big thing for her. Yeah, sixty episodes, and she's
Speaker 1: done regular law and Order, and I bet you she's
Speaker 1: done you know, Oh, she's done criminal intent. So she's
Speaker 1: done the whole tri EFFECTA. So the sister Ruby, who
Speaker 1: is now thirteen, who Henry tried to kill, is like
Speaker 1: in the gallery at court watching his therapist says that
Speaker 1: when he was admitted, he was on the severe end
Speaker 1: of the psychopathy checklist. And we're seeing, you know, a
Speaker 1: flashback of Henry describing how he just super coolly killed Snowball,
Speaker 1: but the therapist insisting that now he's learned how to
Speaker 1: control his emotions and behavior. And now on the stand
Speaker 1: is Henry's dad, who was sitting with the sister. But
Speaker 1: I didn't recognize it because they have recast him. He
Speaker 1: is a different man.
Speaker 3: Isn't a recast? I thought maybe he just got a
Speaker 3: little older.
Speaker 1: No, the season fourteen actor was na to Alex Mannette,
Speaker 1: who weirdly was also in the movie We Need to
Speaker 1: Talk About Kevin, which is like conic movie about a
Speaker 1: child psychopath.
Speaker 3: Which I saw on one of my first dates with Jared.
Speaker 1: If that is tells you anything anyway, it looks like
Speaker 1: this guy stopped acting in twenty seventeen, so that's probably
Speaker 1: why he didn't come back to reprise the role. And
Speaker 1: now it's being played by Jason Cottole, and I don't
Speaker 1: really know anything him from anything. He's on the stand
Speaker 1: saying that him and his new wife Holly, and his
Speaker 1: sister Ruby have visited regularly Henry in this facility. They
Speaker 1: can't wait for him to come home and live with
Speaker 1: them and live with his new little.
Speaker 3: Brother arlow uh oh.
Speaker 1: He also reveals, I just think having a when you
Speaker 1: mentioned that, like there's gonna be a little kid around
Speaker 1: a psychopath, I don't like that. I mean immediate hairs
Speaker 1: on the back of my neck. So he also reveals
Speaker 1: that Henry's mother passed away five years ago aka Hope
Speaker 1: Davis was busy and not replaceable because I think she
Speaker 1: had a bigger part in the last episode and she's
Speaker 1: more recognizable and they're like, but she would be so
Speaker 1: proud of Henry, he says. And Henry testifies that the
Speaker 1: staff and doctor Mackie have helped and encouraged him so much.
Speaker 3: They really had faith that he could change.
Speaker 1: And the judge is like, all right, let me think
Speaker 1: about this and I'll get a decision to you before
Speaker 1: the holidays. And Henry gives this like extremely freaky half smile.
Speaker 1: This actor is like very good, like he's so dead eyes,
Speaker 1: it's like really and he just gives a sort of
Speaker 1: like half smile that you could kind of if you
Speaker 1: were the judge be like, oh, is he smiling or
Speaker 1: is he a total psycho? It's like very, very confusing,
Speaker 1: and that leads us right into the credits. From the credits,
Speaker 1: we are smashed right in to seeing a girl getting
Speaker 1: wheeled out of a building on a stretcher that says
Speaker 1: the building says Manhattan School of Design. So we're at
Speaker 1: like one of the many made up colleges in New
Speaker 1: York and a uniformed officer is downloading all the info.
Speaker 3: Her name is Libby Blandon. She's nineteen, she's unconscious. She
Speaker 3: was found.
Speaker 1: Burned, lost a lot of blood or her roomy found
Speaker 1: her tied up, gagged and naked, so sexual assault is implied.
Speaker 1: Finn and our girl kat Toman aka friend of the
Speaker 1: Pod Jamie gray Hyder, are there.
Speaker 3: They go to top to the roommate.
Speaker 1: She's wearing like a two piece outfit with like neon
Speaker 1: and like matching neon boots, and she explains that she
Speaker 1: and Libby.
Speaker 3: Were at a dage, which is a day rage.
Speaker 1: I did double check it and make sure that it
Speaker 1: wasn't just like some boomer in the writer's room making
Speaker 1: this up. It does exist. I wish we could do better.
Speaker 1: I think that sounds like silly slang. But apparently Libby
Speaker 1: left the dage early around seven or eight, and the
Speaker 1: roommate went to go hook up with her ex, and
Speaker 1: then she's like, oh my god, that might have saved
Speaker 1: my life. And it's like, also, your friend isn't dead.
Speaker 1: Stop being so dramatic. In the dorm room, the scene
Speaker 1: is extremely fucked up, like we've seen other scenes, but like,
Speaker 1: there is so much blood on the mattress. There's an
Speaker 1: extension cord that was used to tie up the victim,
Speaker 1: and Finn goes, we're looking at a psycho and Kat
Speaker 1: looks like she's about to throw up. She's like new
Speaker 1: guy Pugan in the corner, if you know, Tommy Boy, and.
Speaker 3: She's very disturbed by what she's seeing.
Speaker 1: Security cameras have kids coming in and out of the
Speaker 1: building all night, and half of them are wearing masks,
Speaker 1: not mascarade style, COVID style, so it's like, gonna be
Speaker 1: very hard to like weed this guy out. And Kat's like,
Speaker 1: he had to have left DNA, and Finn's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but he might not be in the system. Someone this
Speaker 1: fucked up. If they were in the system, they would
Speaker 1: have never let them out. And it's like yeah, but Finn.
Speaker 1: We've seen the system let out dangerous psychos a million times,
Speaker 1: like the Baker Butcher of Alaska. The fucking guy was
Speaker 1: hunting women in the woods of Alaska. He was in
Speaker 1: jail like three times before he went out and did
Speaker 1: all that. So anyway, now we're at the playground, Rollins
Speaker 1: is in mom mode, Jesse is swinging, Little Billy is
Speaker 1: spundled up in a stroller, and Rollin's on the phone
Speaker 1: with her mom talking about how it was your idea
Speaker 1: for dad to move in. You can't call me every
Speaker 1: time he makes a mess, and blah blah blah. So
Speaker 1: Rollins goes, all right, listen, I'll call dad. We'll have
Speaker 1: a family meeting. And I was like, I am RSV
Speaker 1: being a hard no to the Rollins family meeting. Can
Speaker 1: you imagine how psycho that is, just like Amanda.
Speaker 3: And her crazy sister and her crazy mom.
Speaker 2: Dastly Henry would fit right in ight in with Yeah,
Speaker 2: the Rolins family, right, And the dad gets to bring
Speaker 2: his new girlfriend who's like using him for we don't
Speaker 2: know what it would be.
Speaker 3: Does Cariesie get to go, Will Billy and Jesse be there?
Speaker 3: Who's to say?
Speaker 1: So? She gets a call from Live and ditches her mom. Obviously,
Speaker 1: Rollins can't find Jet and she's like, all right, I'll
Speaker 1: meet you right there. Rollins then cannot find Jesse immediately,
Speaker 1: and this is like a nightmare mom scenario that happens
Speaker 1: to me six times a day where I'm just like,
Speaker 1: where's Oscar, Like I can't find it. Like Rosie, I
Speaker 1: kind of always know we'll not do something crazy, but
Speaker 1: Oscar will run into traffic.
Speaker 3: So I have this happen all the time.
Speaker 1: After like five seconds, Jesse appears with a little white dog, Stuffy,
Speaker 1: and she.
Speaker 3: Says, oh, a nice man gave it to me.
Speaker 1: And I don't think we've ever discussed this, but I
Speaker 1: think everybody must know. Jesse is played by twins whose
Speaker 1: names are Charlotte and Vivian Cable, and this is like
Speaker 1: a moment where Jesse has more lines and so I
Speaker 1: wanted to just shout out those little twinsies. They are
Speaker 1: very cute, and Rollins is like very sketched out by
Speaker 1: a random man giving her daughter a toy. And then
Speaker 1: Jesse drops the hammer and goes, yeah, the man told
Speaker 1: me that the puppy's name is Snowball. And Amanda looks
Speaker 1: shook because she's like remembering Snowball from eight years ago
Speaker 1: at Mercy Hospital. Now Libby is awake and talking to Benson.
Speaker 1: You might also remember that this character, Libby Blandon is
Speaker 1: in the beginning of the episode Tangle Strands of Justice.
Speaker 1: Remember she's stealing all those watches from her sugar daddy
Speaker 1: and then a Queen's detective played by Orphe uses her
Speaker 1: DNA from this case to bust her illegally. So if
Speaker 1: you're wondering how do I remember Libby Blandon, this is
Speaker 1: where we first meet her. She explains that this purp
Speaker 1: knocked on her dorm room door, said he was locked out,
Speaker 1: asked to use her cell phone, and so she let
Speaker 1: him in. I thought he was a student. He's the
Speaker 1: same age as me, he knew my name, she says.
Speaker 1: He pulled a knife and said should I cut your
Speaker 1: clothes off or burn them off?
Speaker 3: And she didn't answer him. He just smiled, tied.
Speaker 1: Her up, cut her clothes, sexually assaulted her, bring her
Speaker 1: with cigarettes.
Speaker 3: Ugh.
Speaker 2: When I first saw this, I thought it was going
Speaker 2: to be two crimes. Like I feel like a fool.
Speaker 2: I totally thought it was going to be like two
Speaker 2: Dueling crimes. Like I was really, even though I've seen
Speaker 2: this episode before, I was like shocked it was him. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is a I.
Speaker 1: Mean, this episode's delivered like two this podcast had started
Speaker 1: when this episode aired. This is like an episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So he she says he choked her until she'd almost
Speaker 1: pass out. So this guy's like very much torturing her
Speaker 1: for fun. And then before he left, he asked for
Speaker 1: her debit card on the code. Then he came back
Speaker 1: and took one of her stuffed animals, and Rollins is
Speaker 1: like it wasn't a white dog, was it, and like, yeah, bitch,
Speaker 1: it actually was. She shows a picture because she has
Speaker 1: a picture of the stuffy on her phone and Libby goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's Daisy, and so I guess her stuffed animals named Daisy.
Speaker 1: And then a nurse comes in to bring Libby to
Speaker 1: surgery and Lives talking to Rollins and Lives like, what
Speaker 1: the hell what's up with the stuffed animal? And Rollins
Speaker 1: is like, here's the whole story, and Lives immediately panicked
Speaker 1: and she's like and Rollins says, don't worry. The girls
Speaker 1: are with my mom, and Livy is like, I'm sending
Speaker 1: an officer anyway. Rollins is like, this can't be a coincidence, right,
Speaker 1: and lives like, there's no way. Henry Mesterer must still
Speaker 1: be locked up, And It's like it's pretty simple math.
Speaker 1: He was ten, it's been eight years. He's out, and
Speaker 1: Rollins is like, let's make some calls. Finn has a
Speaker 1: hit on the debit card and lives like, be careful.
Speaker 1: This guy knows who we are, so now we're in
Speaker 1: Cooper Square and guess who we.
Speaker 3: Are fucking talking to.
Speaker 1: It's Keys, the guy from Wednesday's Child who has all
Speaker 1: the sets of keys and moves everybody's cars.
Speaker 3: We just talked to him.
Speaker 1: We just met this character like four episodes ago on
Speaker 1: our podcast, not in the run of the show, and
Speaker 1: he's played by Andre de heartbreaking because I would have
Speaker 1: loved to try to get Andre Deshields, you know, but.
Speaker 3: It happens.
Speaker 2: We do love keys, We do love keys, and you
Speaker 2: know Andrea Shields. And I will say it again, even
Speaker 2: though I said in the other episode his Tony Award
Speaker 2: winning speech is very inspirational and if you need a
Speaker 2: boost in your spirit, I would watch it.
Speaker 1: And I know we have our casting mole that listens.
Speaker 1: Let's get Andre to Shields in season twenty.
Speaker 3: Five when things pick back up, Let's get him.
Speaker 1: On yeah, bigger portion. In Key, something happened Keys Whitnest.
Speaker 3: This is a crime.
Speaker 1: Let's get Keys like, actually, you know most of he's
Speaker 1: all been circumstantial here, but basically what happens here is
Speaker 1: he goes, why are you messing with Keys again? Which
Speaker 1: I love because we're supposed to like remember Keys from
Speaker 1: multiple seasons ago. And Finn's like, you used a stolen
Speaker 1: debit card last night, and he's like, I didn't hurt anyone.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to survive. And the guy's like, he
Speaker 1: only let me have fifty bucks. I'll give it back.
Speaker 1: I don't want anything to do with that guy, and
Speaker 1: he says he ain't right.
Speaker 2: So this guy and Keys Knowskes has been in this
Speaker 2: city for the decade.
Speaker 1: Keys meets all kinds and if someone's freaking out Keys,
Speaker 1: this guy is freaky.
Speaker 3: So he goes. This guy had me use the ATM
Speaker 3: takeout cash.
Speaker 1: And then made me go buy quote a bunch of
Speaker 1: crazy stuff at the hardware store, zip ties, rope, duct tape, oh,
Speaker 1: and a hand torch.
Speaker 3: Cool.
Speaker 1: This guy obviously has a thing for fire and burning,
Speaker 1: as we've established. At the hospital, Rollins is calling around,
Speaker 1: but it's a Saturday. No one will tell her where
Speaker 1: the fuck Henry Messer is or acting like it's confidentiality,
Speaker 1: like they it feels like it would be public record
Speaker 1: that he was released into the public, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: In walks Libby's mother, doctor Blandon, played by Margaret Reid,
Speaker 1: who also played defense attorney Felicia Chatham in the episode's Debt, Charisma,
Speaker 1: and Stranger, which are all episodes we've covered on this podcast.
Speaker 1: So it turns out that the mom is an adolescent
Speaker 1: psychologist specializing in violent behavior, so she knows that whoever
Speaker 1: did this is a psychopath, and Rollins is like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: now we are definitely not in coincidence territory anymore. Does
Speaker 1: the name Henry Messner ring any psycho bells for you?
Speaker 1: And she's like, I haven't seen Henry in five years,
Speaker 1: And she says she was the one that told him
Speaker 1: that his mother had died, and they go, did you
Speaker 1: ever tell Henry about your daughter?
Speaker 3: Libby?
Speaker 1: And she goes sometimes to get patients to open up,
Speaker 1: Please don't tell me they've released him and then live
Speaker 1: in Rolins share a look. So now at the Messner's home,
Speaker 1: they're banging on the door. No one's answering. Neighbors haven't
Speaker 1: seen hide er hair of these people since yesterday.
Speaker 3: They bust in.
Speaker 1: It's a mess, shit smashed. There is blood splattered everywhere.
Speaker 1: Pretty quickly, we see the legs of a little boy
Speaker 1: in a pool of blood, which is fucked up like
Speaker 1: we have not seen that many times. And this is
Speaker 1: like a five year old boy. Cat looks terrified, like
Speaker 1: she looks truly. I don't know what episode this is
Speaker 1: for Cat, but she's look, Oh god, this is not
Speaker 1: what I'm used to I forgot what department she came from,
Speaker 1: but I don't think it was dead little boys in
Speaker 1: a pool of blood. So Amanda finds the step mom
Speaker 1: in the kitchen, murdered. Wait this whole time I was away,
Speaker 1: did you ever watch mob Wives? No?
Speaker 3: Do you know who Big Anne is? Though?
Speaker 1: Of course? Okay, so Big Ann rest in peace. There's
Speaker 1: an amazing clip of her going around where she's talking
Speaker 1: to somebody about a new guy she's dating. She goes, well,
Speaker 1: he just got out off to twenty five years for murder. Anyway,
Speaker 1: he's buying me a puppy, and it's like the funniest clip,
Speaker 1: and we just played it with my siblings and we
Speaker 1: just kept going for murder.
Speaker 3: So when I was when I was.
Speaker 1: Writing this, I wrote, the mom Stepmom's in the kitchen, murdered.
Speaker 1: The dad is dead, face down in what looks like
Speaker 1: a very elaborate breakfast spread. And then Kat goes there's
Speaker 1: another body and lives like, well, the sister would be thirteen,
Speaker 1: and Cat's like no, this is a little boy like five,
Speaker 1: and they're like, okay, this guy is on a spree
Speaker 1: and it started here.
Speaker 3: So the bodies are.
Speaker 1: We find out at the top of AC two that
Speaker 1: the bodies are out of rigor. Time of death is
Speaker 1: within forty eight hours. So basically the timeline is, he
Speaker 1: murders his whole family Friday morning, assaults Libby Friday night.
Speaker 1: On Saturday morning, he goes to the park where he
Speaker 1: approaches Jesse. Also, the gun safe in the house is
Speaker 1: wide open and empty, so now this kid is armed,
Speaker 1: and we have no idea how many even fucking guns
Speaker 1: this dad had, so who knows how dangerous this kid is.
Speaker 1: Benson gets a call Ruby is alive, and she goes, oh,
Speaker 1: thank god, she was staying at a friend's house in
Speaker 1: Oyster Bay, and Rollin goes, yeah, but now we have
Speaker 1: to tell a thirteen year old that her whole family's
Speaker 1: been murdered, and Benson's like, right, I forgot, Yes, that's true.
Speaker 1: We do have to do that, and then they do
Speaker 1: a quick shot of a tiny body bag before we
Speaker 1: head over to Oyster Bay. Ruby is with her friend
Speaker 1: Charlotte and her friend's mom, Megan, and the detectives have
Speaker 1: already broken the news, like Ruby's crying, and they're like, okay,
Speaker 1: we need to talk to Ruby alone. So the friend
Speaker 1: and the mom walk away with Cat. But the mom
Speaker 1: is like, I definitely don't want to be a target
Speaker 1: for a serial killing psychopath.
Speaker 3: Are we supposed to be worried?
Speaker 1: Cat's like, no, worry, there's gonna be a twenty four
Speaker 1: to seven police presence outside. Don't leave the house. And
Speaker 1: the mom is like, listen, I was friends with Holly,
Speaker 1: the stepmom. She was terrified of Henry. She tried to
Speaker 1: tell Tom, and honestly, the dad is to blame for
Speaker 1: all of this, Like the dad never thought he should
Speaker 1: be sent away. And then the dad's like, after eight years,
Speaker 1: he's fixed, Let's bring him home and bring him around
Speaker 1: my tiny son. Who how could that kid? How could
Speaker 1: any kid would feel a little bit replaced? Like I
Speaker 1: got sent away for eight years and you had another
Speaker 1: boy when I was gone, Like, and you're just gonna
Speaker 1: let him be in the house.
Speaker 3: It's so crazy.
Speaker 1: And it's also weird because they pammed to the stepmom
Speaker 1: in and she had like a big smile on her face,
Speaker 1: like they were putting on a show for court. But
Speaker 1: to her friends, she's like, this kid terrifies me, and
Speaker 1: I don't really want him in my house. Kat wonders, Oh,
Speaker 1: is that why he had a gun? And Holly was
Speaker 1: like Tom thought they just needed to show Henry enough
Speaker 1: love and he'd be fine, but Holly insisted on protection.
Speaker 1: But they also had a gun before in earlier in
Speaker 1: the season fourteen episodes, so I don't really know what
Speaker 1: the point of this conversation is. Rollins is talking to Ruby,
Speaker 1: who is played by Maxine Wanderer, who was very young
Speaker 1: but recently did three episodes of Chicago Fire. So Dick
Speaker 1: Wolf sees the potential and she's sad about her little brother.
Speaker 1: She's like, ur low, he was just a little boy,
Speaker 1: and she says Henry hated him, he was so jealous
Speaker 1: of him. She says the last time she talked to
Speaker 1: Henry was Friday, she left early for school. While the
Speaker 1: rest of the family was having breakfast. Henry and his
Speaker 1: dad were fighting because the dad wanted Henry to get
Speaker 1: a job, to do something anything.
Speaker 3: Well, what happened.
Speaker 2: He was like pretty quick, like I don't understand why
Speaker 2: you need to force this kid to have a job.
Speaker 3: He's obviously trouble.
Speaker 2: Like, can he just not have a process, Like he's
Speaker 2: been locked away for eight years, he can't have a
Speaker 2: moment to Breathe totally agree, And I think it's absolutely
Speaker 2: because of this dad being a lot like the dad
Speaker 2: in like the Pika episode or a lot of these
Speaker 2: other episodes where they're like, everything's fine, everything's fine, You're
Speaker 2: a normal eighteen year old, Go get a job, like
Speaker 2: that's yeah, exactly, Like he's not.
Speaker 3: What would he do? I mean, I don't know. I
Speaker 3: feel like he needs a lot.
Speaker 2: You take him to the zoo first, take him to
Speaker 2: the beach. Why don't you just like work on your
Speaker 2: familial love and relationship, take a week off work? You
Speaker 2: amtrak freak, like, I just this dad is outside of
Speaker 2: the ones that abuse and murder is my least favorite.
Speaker 2: He is the worst dad of yeah, the whole or
Speaker 2: you know who the episode popular that Dad's Bad where
Speaker 2: he's like happy that his daughter got raped instead of
Speaker 2: being a slut, because then it's not her fault.
Speaker 3: That was a bad dad. Oh yeah, a couple bad dads.
Speaker 2: These two dads should go have a fucking meeting in
Speaker 2: hell together.
Speaker 3: Fuck yeah.
Speaker 1: So rollins or somebody asks, well, what has he been
Speaker 1: up to? And the friend Charlotte is like, he's been
Speaker 1: bragging to Ruby about taking driving lessons, and the mom
Speaker 1: is like, Holly didn't like that. She liked it better
Speaker 1: when he just stayed in his room for days playing
Speaker 1: video games. At least like she knew where he was
Speaker 1: and like he wasn't hurting anybody. Ruby says, they could
Speaker 1: hear him talking through the wall in the headset, but
Speaker 1: he doesn't have any friends. The only kids knew are
Speaker 1: from the facility, and he had nobody else, so they
Speaker 1: shouldn't have let him out.
Speaker 3: Ruby says, why did they? Great question?
Speaker 1: So now we're at the Heslin Juvenile Psychiatric Facility in Yonkers.
Speaker 1: So he didn't make it to Vermont. He's somewhere local
Speaker 1: doctor Mackie. We're talking to her, Henry's BFF, and she's like,
Speaker 1: this is every psychiatrist's worst nightmare. For five years, we
Speaker 1: gave him the tools to get better. His family petitioned
Speaker 1: for his release. He demonstrated he was no longer a threat.
Speaker 1: He passed all the exams, he had a perfect record.
Speaker 1: The family said they'd care for him. Three psychiatrists, including me,
Speaker 1: testified on his behalf, like what else could we have done?
Speaker 1: When she met him, she thought he'd turned his life round,
Speaker 1: cause I guess when she got there he was already
Speaker 1: in treatment there and Rollins.
Speaker 3: Is like, but have you heard the theory?
Speaker 1: Like this is a classic Rowlins where I think this
Speaker 1: is what makes Melinda annoyed with her, where she acts
Speaker 1: like she's an expert more than people that are experts.
Speaker 1: She's like, but have you heard the theory that group
Speaker 1: therapy is ineffective for psychopaths because it just helps them
Speaker 1: learn how to fake being mentally healthy. And she's like, yes, Rowins,
Speaker 1: I'm aware, and I've looked for that. And she says,
Speaker 1: no one has ever fooled me. And an entire staff before.
Speaker 1: So basically, this kid spent eight years learning how to
Speaker 1: appear completely sane. And the doctor's like, yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: it looks like. They said, he has one friend in
Speaker 1: this place, let's go talk to him. So they're talking
Speaker 1: to this kid, and he talked about being angry with Holly,
Speaker 1: his stepmom, and said, and then he goes, hate and
Speaker 1: anger are not productive emotions, so you can sort of
Speaker 1: tell this kid's also just like repeating back what parents
Speaker 1: want to hear and what people want to hear. No
Speaker 1: idea where Henry is, he said, He goes, he left
Speaker 1: me a note when he got out, but and he
Speaker 1: puts some money in my commissary, but I would have
Speaker 1: no idea where that letter even is. And he's painting
Speaker 1: a bird house and Rollins is like, bro, I'm going
Speaker 1: to testify that you ate it in a bed at
Speaker 1: a serial killer if you don't start spilling, and the
Speaker 1: guy's like, I don't know, and Finn goes take a
Speaker 1: guess and suddenly well and also yeah, Rollins is like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna cut your time in half.
Speaker 3: You're never gonna get out of here. And he's like,
Speaker 3: that's not fair.
Speaker 1: I'm not the same as Henry, and so Finn's like,
Speaker 1: take a guess, and suddenly this guy has tons of info.
Speaker 1: He goes, maybe check with my older sister Cora. They
Speaker 1: hooked up on a visit here once, and Cora always
Speaker 1: reminds me of the Woman and the Poor Woman in
Speaker 1: the Dean Kine episode. So now we're at Cora's apartment.
Speaker 1: Music is blaring, live a cat and a team bust
Speaker 1: the door down.
Speaker 3: No one's there.
Speaker 1: But then one second later Cora comes home and is like,
Speaker 1: what the hell And they're like down on the ground,
Speaker 1: and she's on the ground with like a very wild,
Speaker 1: multi level haircut, and she's like, they're like, is Henry
Speaker 1: Messner here? And she goes, yeah, he's my boyfriend. And
Speaker 1: then they start going through his like meticulously folded piles
Speaker 1: of clothes and she goes, don't go through his stuff.
Speaker 3: He doesn't like that. Don't you need a warrant? And
Speaker 3: lives like, bitch, your boyfriend is armed and dangerous.
Speaker 1: She goes, He's not how you think he is. He's
Speaker 1: a gentle soul. His demons are gone. Okay, we'll see.
Speaker 1: So now Cora is an interrogation wood and blinds not
Speaker 1: bars and concrete, and she says, Henry just needs to
Speaker 1: breathe without people all up in his grill. He needs
Speaker 1: some time. And she tells them that he likes to
Speaker 1: be by the water, he likes to go to the
Speaker 1: park and watch kids play, and that he was at
Speaker 1: morning Side Park yesterday and they're like, how do you
Speaker 1: know that? She goes whatever. He takes pictures on his phone.
Speaker 1: They upload to the cloud, so now they're like, give
Speaker 1: us your phone. They go through, They go to the
Speaker 1: phone and fuck, there's pictures of Jesse and there are
Speaker 1: pictures of Ruby at the house in Oyster Bay, which
Speaker 1: means he's been like watching her and stalking her and
Speaker 1: knows where she is. They're like, fuck, get to the
Speaker 1: house and let's alert the parents. The mom is not
Speaker 1: answering her cell and when they get there, the volvo
Speaker 1: is gone. So there's a police department from like the
Speaker 1: local Oyster Bay PD. There's a car outside but no
Speaker 1: cop in it, and then another local cop rolls up
Speaker 1: and he's like, what's the big deal and they're like, what,
Speaker 1: where the fuck is your guy? Like we have somebody
Speaker 1: on the loose, and they're like, he goes there was
Speaker 1: a bomb scare at.
Speaker 3: The mall all units.
Speaker 1: So now the cop car is there, but where's the
Speaker 1: cop They popped the trunk. He's in there alive, Thank god.
Speaker 1: I don't know why Henry wouldn't just stab him for shits,
Speaker 1: but he's zip tied and duct taped the house down.
Speaker 3: He obviously I don't know, but also how embarrassing.
Speaker 2: You're a grown ass cop and the kid without hurting
Speaker 2: you or injuring you, got you tied up.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess he has a bunch of guns,
Speaker 1: but like, how did this like teen outsmart and overpower
Speaker 1: a cop. It's very confusing. So now they answer the house.
Speaker 1: The mom is on the ground of the kitchen. It
Speaker 1: very much echoes when they found Holly, who was found
Speaker 1: dead in the kitchen, and the woman looks pretty dead.
Speaker 1: But Rollins finds a pulse upstairs. Cat here's screaming and
Speaker 1: it's Charlotte Ruby's friend who's like tied up in the shower,
Speaker 1: and she says it was Henry. Henry took Ruby and
Speaker 1: he said he wanted to go on a ride. And
Speaker 1: then Rollin's is talking to Thin and just out of nowhere,
Speaker 1: just Rollin's intuition goes, maybe a ride isn't a car ride?
Speaker 1: Are there any amusement parks nearby?
Speaker 3: Huge jump?
Speaker 1: Not sure how Rollins figured that out, but here we are.
Speaker 1: They pull up to this closed amusement park and boom.
Speaker 1: The Volvos parked right outside the amusement park is locked,
Speaker 1: but they could have easily squeezed through the gate. There's
Speaker 1: like give in the lock on the gate. Everyone is
Speaker 1: searching this place for Henry. Rollins spots a fun house
Speaker 1: and once again has serial killer intuition and just knows
Speaker 1: that he might be in there. So Finn goes wait
Speaker 1: on backup, and Amanda's like right, And then Amanda, Queen
Speaker 1: of bad Decisions, is like, I'm just gonna pop into
Speaker 1: the fun house by myself.
Speaker 3: And so now she's in a witch wil.
Speaker 2: I know this is TV. Obviously they have to enter alone.
Speaker 2: They of course they're not going to wait for backup.
Speaker 2: They are heroes. But a fun house is the number
Speaker 2: one worst place, Like I can't imagine a worst place
Speaker 2: it is, And it's also not as funny as the
Speaker 2: haunted house that like Finn and Munch went in roy
Speaker 2: Pace and that was like funny, Like this is truly
Speaker 2: like from the movie US, Like, I don't get out
Speaker 2: of there.
Speaker 1: I know it is truly from the movie Else, like
Speaker 1: why would you go into a fun house which is
Speaker 1: just known for being mirrors, corners, nooks where people can
Speaker 1: hide and jump out at any moment, literally the worst.
Speaker 3: So she's in there.
Speaker 1: I remember watching this when it first came out and
Speaker 1: being like, oh, this is kind of a neat scene though,
Speaker 1: like where you can't tell where he is and you
Speaker 1: can't tell where Rollins is, like because it's so many mirrors,
Speaker 1: so they filmed it kind of cool. We hear Henry
Speaker 1: talking to Ruby telling him how the parents brought him
Speaker 1: there before she was born, and she was like, let
Speaker 1: me go, please, I won't tell, and he says she's
Speaker 1: always been a lying, little tattletale.
Speaker 3: He doesn't believe her. Rollins interrupts.
Speaker 1: Henry has a gun on Rollins and he's like, you're
Speaker 1: even prettier up close, and your daughters look just like you,
Speaker 1: and she's like, you haven't changed a bit.
Speaker 3: Henry's still a freaky creep.
Speaker 1: So now she goes drop the gun and he goes,
Speaker 1: it's not like I'm going to hurt her, And it's like,
Speaker 1: why would anybody think that, like you are literally a
Speaker 1: fully murderous psychobab.
Speaker 3: She's like your number one enemy.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, you've been holding on to hate for Ruby,
Speaker 2: probably forever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Rollins goes, why don't you let Ruby go?
Speaker 1: We'll stay here, just us too, Because Rollin's is like,
Speaker 1: this guy's eighteen.
Speaker 3: I can flirt with him, it's legal.
Speaker 1: She always uses her flirtations to get what she needs.
Speaker 1: He's like, you're not mad about Jesse. He goes, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't hurt her. She wasn't on my list. So this
Speaker 1: guy has like an Adam Sandler style like list of
Speaker 1: people or what movie.
Speaker 3: Is that Happy Madison?
Speaker 1: Happy Madison talking about Billy Madison. Somebody has a list
Speaker 1: of all the people they want to kill. A Steve
Speaker 1: Boucemy I had almost everything right. Happy Madison is like
Speaker 1: his production company anyway, So Rollin says, still, a mom
Speaker 1: has to protect her kids, and Henry's like, not mine.
Speaker 3: She had me locked up.
Speaker 1: And Ruby's like, that wasn't mom's fault or dad's, and
Speaker 1: he goes, yeah, it was your fault. And I wasn't
Speaker 1: sorry when mom died in that car crash slash Hope
Speaker 1: Davis was unavailable because she was making the movie Love Life,
Speaker 1: the television show. Ruby is crying and he calls her
Speaker 1: a cry baby. Rollin swoops in and says, I'm the
Speaker 1: one who put you you away after you shot my partner.
Speaker 1: I made sure you got locked up. So then he
Speaker 1: points a gun at her. But it's still a funhouse mirror,
Speaker 1: so it's very confusing. Outside there's all these huge teams
Speaker 1: moving in. You know, I never know who it is.
Speaker 1: It's like Nasau County Police and the CSU teams or whatever.
Speaker 1: There's always kinds of like different teams of guys in
Speaker 1: like full hard hat and riot gear getting ready to.
Speaker 3: Storm the funhouse.
Speaker 1: Rollins is not responding to the radio, which is making
Speaker 1: Live really frustrated, but then she finally does and she
Speaker 1: says Ruby is coming out with Henry's gun, and so
Speaker 1: Ruby comes out gun up, is like, don't shoot me.
Speaker 1: They grab her and she says Henry didn't want to
Speaker 1: talk to me anymore. He just wanted to talk to Rollins.
Speaker 1: And now some guy in a technical unit is like,
Speaker 1: we got state police and Nassau County Police en route.
Speaker 3: How experienced is your detective?
Speaker 1: And lives like very don't even question the experience of
Speaker 1: my detectives, you little punk. Plus this is now downgraded
Speaker 1: because he's disarmed, and they're like, yeah, unless he took
Speaker 1: Rollins's gun, we have no idea what's going on in there.
Speaker 1: So they're like, well, it'll be kind of tough to
Speaker 1: sneak up on someone in a house of mirror. So
Speaker 1: the guy goes, I'm gonna try to sneak some cameras
Speaker 1: in there. She keeps trying to radio Rollins, who won't respond,
Speaker 1: and then finally she's like, give us a few minutes.
Speaker 1: Henry and I are talking. So now we get the
Speaker 1: little moment that we always get between Rollins and a
Speaker 1: psycho where she's like, why'd you come here? And he goes, well,
Speaker 1: I had my childhood taken away from me. No beaches,
Speaker 1: no amusement parks, just arts and crafts, and that's I
Speaker 1: guess a reference to the bird houses that they had
Speaker 1: to paint back at the facility. He loves the ocean
Speaker 1: because the ocean doesn't give a fuck. The ocean does
Speaker 1: what it wants, take what it wants. The ocean is
Speaker 1: a psychopath. So he tells the story about coming to
Speaker 1: that park and the beach. I guess this park is
Speaker 1: right next to a beach. When he was six with
Speaker 1: a kid named Oscar and his mom a little unnerving,
Speaker 1: the kid, Oscar, couldn't swim. He didn't know that there
Speaker 1: was deep water at the edge of the flats. He
Speaker 1: got sucked under a riptide. He said he saw him
Speaker 1: gasping for air. The kid's mom jumped in, so did
Speaker 1: a lifeguard, but both Oscar and his mom drowned, which
Speaker 1: they She goes, that must have been scary, and he goes,
Speaker 1: I just did what the ocean wanted me to do.
Speaker 1: Floated with the tide. The coastguard found me a mile
Speaker 1: from shore, and I guess his mom was a mess,
Speaker 1: and he was like, I was more than okay. That
Speaker 1: was the first time I knew I was different. I
Speaker 1: was just bummed I didn't get to see it, meaning
Speaker 1: he didn't get to see his friend and his mother drowned.
Speaker 1: Outside Live is getting annoyed. She needs Rolins to update her,
Speaker 1: and on top of that, the bossy man in the
Speaker 1: hot hard hat is like, it's not your call. We're
Speaker 1: going in in five minutes. So inside, Rollins is like,
Speaker 1: so what's up, dude, Like what do you want to do?
Speaker 1: You want to come out, you want to get shot,
Speaker 1: you want to come with me and I'll protect you.
Speaker 3: And he's like, why would you protect me?
Speaker 1: And she's like, because I remember you as a little
Speaker 1: boy in the kitchen eating strawberries. Call back to last episode.
Speaker 1: He goes, you flinched when I walked past, but you
Speaker 1: didn't leave, and she says I was worried about you,
Speaker 1: and even now I don't want you to die. And
Speaker 1: Rollins comes out finally with Henry cuffed, and Henry's like,
Speaker 1: I couldn't help myself.
Speaker 3: Just ask her.
Speaker 1: I'm not of sound mind like he's already talking like
Speaker 1: the fucking joker. Liv's like, what the fuck? And Rollins
Speaker 1: is like, I'm sorry. I just love playing Mindhunter. I
Speaker 1: can't stop myself. I love to noodle around in the
Speaker 1: head of these creepy psychos. She's like, this spree is
Speaker 1: all he's been thinking about for eight years, and wherever
Speaker 1: he ends up, they need to throw away the key.
Speaker 1: So top of act four, this seems like could be
Speaker 1: the end of the episode.
Speaker 3: But there's more.
Speaker 1: Top of act four, Henry's being evaluated, but alas our
Speaker 1: Hoong days are long gone at this point. So it
Speaker 1: is mister Noodle aka Olivia's therapist, doctor Peter Lindstrom. He's
Speaker 1: been in seventeen episodes. I didn't realize so many, but
Speaker 1: he is quite recurring in these later seasons, some of
Speaker 1: the mid teens to the twenties. And he says, he's
Speaker 1: not there to judge you, Henry, I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: figure out how we got here. And Henry says, four
Speaker 1: months ago. So I guess it's been four months. So
Speaker 1: he got out in December and now it's like March
Speaker 1: or something April, and he's decided to go on his spree.
Speaker 1: Henry says, four months ago, the State of New York
Speaker 1: said I wasn't a danger to myself or others think
Speaker 1: they made the right decision.
Speaker 3: So then Lindstrom comes out to talk.
Speaker 1: To Livin Rollins and Careesi and he's like, whoever let
Speaker 1: this kid out should have their license revoked.
Speaker 3: Cariese's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Hindsight's twenty twenty doc is he competent to stand trial?
Speaker 1: And the doc is like, it's complicated, starring Meryl Streep
Speaker 1: and Alec Baldwin. He's like, so they're basically like does
Speaker 1: he know right from wrong? Can he aid in his defense,
Speaker 1: and Lindstrom is like, hello, I'm a professional, I know
Speaker 1: what the legal parameters are. But he's also saying that
Speaker 1: Henry has two standard deviations away from the normal range
Speaker 1: for callous on emotional behavior when he was ten. A
Speaker 1: psychopath brain is different, probably from birth. But his defense
Speaker 1: may argue that his personality disorder affects his sanity. So
Speaker 1: Rollins argues that he knew exactly what he was doing
Speaker 1: and he knew it was wrong, and the doctor's like, yes,
Speaker 1: but he spent half his life locked up and then
Speaker 1: was sent home to the family he blamed for doing
Speaker 1: the locking up and lives. It's like pouring gas on
Speaker 1: a fire and lighting a match, or whatever, pouring gas
Speaker 1: on something and lighting a match. And his defense will
Speaker 1: be to put the state on trial for letting him
Speaker 1: out in the first place. And Rollins is like, fuck
Speaker 1: that he gets to go on a spring break killing spree,
Speaker 1: settle a bunch of scores, and then go back to
Speaker 1: group there be with his friends at Camp Heesland. I
Speaker 1: don't think so, Rollins is like, I thought there was
Speaker 1: some of it was true about when she was in
Speaker 1: the funhouse with him, She's not only acting.
Speaker 3: And I'm with Rollins.
Speaker 2: I hate this therapist in this moment, I go, Benson,
Speaker 2: you better find another therapist. He's not good because what
Speaker 2: you want to be soft on this guy?
Speaker 3: He's just killed multiple people.
Speaker 2: Even earlier he shot a cop like the I think
Speaker 2: the States should be sued for letting him out, And
Speaker 2: I think this therapist fucking sucks. Like why are we
Speaker 2: making excuses for the psychopath that is going to continue
Speaker 2: to murder? I don't get it.
Speaker 3: Here's the thing.
Speaker 1: If he goes to jail, he's just gonna murder in jail.
Speaker 1: If he goes to a psychiatric facility, they'll just keep
Speaker 1: him drugged up and he won't be able to hurt anybody.
Speaker 2: They can't get him drugged up in prison, maybe I
Speaker 2: don't know, because he can murder people there too, Like
Speaker 2: I don't understand. Yeah, yeah, he keep him in solitary confinement,
Speaker 2: Like fuck it, Like again than the born psychopath that's
Speaker 2: like poor Henry, poor Henry as his daughter, as his sister,
Speaker 2: Ruby is getting the shit beat out of her and
Speaker 2: now is dead and they're still just like but Henry's
Speaker 2: kind of crazy. We gotta take care of him. I'm
Speaker 2: like in a twilight zone with this thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, but okay, So Lindstrom is like, I
Speaker 1: know you want to see him punished, but sending a
Speaker 1: mentally ill person to prison, I've seen prisons where there's
Speaker 1: one psychologist for five hundred men. It's like the Dark Ages.
Speaker 1: And Carisey's like, all right, we just competent or not,
Speaker 1: Like I gotta know, like what's up? This is black
Speaker 1: and white for cares And He's like, he is competent,
Speaker 1: but the question is the problem? Like you asking me
Speaker 1: whether he's competent is kind of the problem. Is what
Speaker 1: Lindstrum says, you.
Speaker 3: How you were brought in?
Speaker 2: What do you mean we brought you here to say
Speaker 2: if he's competent or not. If you had a problem
Speaker 2: with the question, you shouldn't have come in.
Speaker 1: But I think he's saying there's shades of gray here.
Speaker 1: It's not just black and white. And you know, I
Speaker 1: see where he's coming from in his like as a
Speaker 1: psychiatric professional.
Speaker 3: Anyway, Rollin's is about to break down. She's like, I
Speaker 3: gotta go get some fresh air. Lisa's with her. They
Speaker 3: have to go outside together. Caresee's like, I'll go with her.
Speaker 1: Lindstrom asks Live how she's She goes, it's been a
Speaker 1: tough year, I think, just referencing the pandemic. And she goes,
Speaker 1: I'm lucky. Noah's okay, my squad is healthy. And then
Speaker 1: Lindstrom goes and what about Stabler? You said he reappeared
Speaker 1: out of nowhere and Live goes, yeah, and it's been
Speaker 1: a lot to process. And he's like, well, I can
Speaker 1: see why you want an appointment, and I really look
Speaker 1: forward to it. That's such a weird thing to say.
Speaker 1: If my therapist was like I ran under her Trader
Speaker 1: Joe's and she was like, I heard you're having a problem,
Speaker 1: and I really look forward to our session on Sunday,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, what, that's.
Speaker 3: A weird thing to say.
Speaker 1: Lives like yeah, cool, me too, bro, and then she
Speaker 1: just bounces right out of the room. She does not
Speaker 1: want to talk to Doc mister Noodle anymore. In the
Speaker 1: competency hearing, Lindstrom is on the stand once again trying
Speaker 1: to color the shades of gray between the law and
Speaker 1: psychiatry and the judge like everyone else is like black
Speaker 1: or white, competent or not, and he goes yes, and
Speaker 1: they excuse his ass, so he's out of there. Henry's
Speaker 1: lawyer is April Andrews, who is played by Aaron Anderson.
Speaker 1: She's been in Sixthsode of SVU, including I Deserve Some
Speaker 1: Loving Too, which we covered. She has like an eighty
Speaker 1: Falco vibe to me, and she plays a character named
Speaker 1: Ainsley and then just like that like three episodes. Look,
Speaker 1: but she has kind of like a young Edie Falco
Speaker 1: thing going on for me. Not that Edie Falco's not young,
Speaker 1: but this woman's younger.
Speaker 3: Anyway.
Speaker 1: The judge rules that Henry is capable of participating in
Speaker 1: his own defense, and his lawyer is like, okay, we'll
Speaker 1: be pleading not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect,
Speaker 1: and then she kind of starts to argue her case
Speaker 1: and the judge is like save it for the jury,
Speaker 1: and Henry like so creepily goes, you're being rude to
Speaker 1: my lawyer. Let her finish, and then he stands up
Speaker 1: starts heading for the judge. The slowest bailiffs on the
Speaker 1: planet are not moving at all. This fucking kid grabs
Speaker 1: a pencil. Cariese goes to stop him. He stabs Coresi
Speaker 1: in the ear with a pencil. The judge is screaming,
Speaker 1: get him out of here. Henry's screaming, I want my daddy,
Speaker 1: and Rollins is rushing to help a bleeding Coresi. It's chaos,
Speaker 1: like truly at the hospital now Careese. He's being discharged.
Speaker 1: Henry apparently just mispuncturing his ear drum. The judge remanded
Speaker 1: Henry he'll be medicated until he's deemed confident. Amanda's like,
Speaker 1: so he gets what he wants. He stabbed you to
Speaker 1: prove that he's crazy, and he's still going to stand trial.
Speaker 1: But he killed his dad, his stepmom, his five year
Speaker 1: old brother. If he's not crazy, then no one is.
Speaker 1: So Coreesy seems like he's on the side of this
Speaker 1: guy being crazy too.
Speaker 3: It's weird.
Speaker 1: Rollin's of all people, just like doesn't buy the mental
Speaker 1: health part of it. But she's also all about getting
Speaker 1: into the heads of these psychos and finding out what's wrong,
Speaker 1: like what's up with them? So then cut to Rollins
Speaker 1: marching into a cell to talk to Henry, who is
Speaker 1: drugged up. Eyes are open, but he's like totally catatonic.
Speaker 1: She says, I know you can hear me. And when
Speaker 1: I told you I didn't want you to die, I lied.
Speaker 1: If you ever get out of here, if you go
Speaker 1: after Careesy or anyone in my family, it will be
Speaker 1: your last day on earth.
Speaker 3: I'll kill you myself. And he doesn't respond at all.
Speaker 1: But as she leaves, he gets that sick, little half
Speaker 1: smile that he had at the beginning, and that's wolf baby.
Speaker 1: But also, this guy would never get out again, you
Speaker 1: never know. Maybe that's what she's fighting against. Maybe she's like,
Speaker 1: if he goes to a mental health facility, there's a
Speaker 1: chance in thirty years he'll get out again. And when
Speaker 1: he's like forty eight and he'll still kill But I
Speaker 1: just feel like he would be like remanded for the
Speaker 1: rest of his life.
Speaker 3: Like I don't think that.
Speaker 2: I'm more having an issue because I've watched every episode
Speaker 2: of in just like that, and I cannot place this
Speaker 2: woman or this character Ainslie, Like I can't. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: say she's in a few I keep looking at the
Speaker 2: photos and I just do not know. I don't know
Speaker 2: who she is. I can't figure it out. I'm going
Speaker 2: to watch the episodes again because it's killing me. It's
Speaker 2: killing me, so stay tuned for that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, lock him up, Lock him up, Lock him up.
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about the case this is based on,
Speaker 1: so looking forward to your rendition. But before we get
Speaker 1: to the crime, Lisa, I just want to remind everybody
Speaker 1: that we are going on tour.
Speaker 3: We've already we've been on tour. We're going on tour
Speaker 3: tour of this episode. We're in the middle of the tour.
Speaker 1: I am not exactly sure where we are when this
Speaker 1: episode comes out, but I believe it will be the
Speaker 1: October Range, Buffalo, New Haven, Burlington, Cleveland, Boston, Boston. We
Speaker 1: need your asses. If you live in Rhode Island, if
Speaker 1: you live anywhere remotely close to Boston, please drive in
Speaker 1: and come see us. We got to fill the Wilber
Speaker 1: at least to what do you say, half three quarter capacity?
Speaker 3: I want it so big, I want it full.
Speaker 2: Well, let's okay, Toronto, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, Chicago,
Speaker 2: Park West. That means a lot to me. And then
Speaker 2: we'll be back in Madison, Minneapolis. We're going to Milwaukee,
Speaker 2: Saint Louis, Sacramento, New York, and Philly. So yeah, but
Speaker 2: Chicago's part of a festival. Yeah, And the New York
Speaker 2: show is selling up pretty quickly, so grab your tickets
Speaker 2: to that.
Speaker 3: Sacramento. You were like one of the littest shows we
Speaker 3: ever did.
Speaker 1: So if every single one of you is not back,
Speaker 1: I don't know enough to start knocking on doors. But
Speaker 1: I'm very excited Chicago too. We need you guys to
Speaker 1: come out Chicago. This is going to be our only
Speaker 1: show in Chicago for the rest of the year. So
Speaker 1: all of our Rosemont gals that came out last year,
Speaker 1: all of our people that have come out to other venues,
Speaker 1: please come see us there, because that's a big venue too, right, Lisa, Oh,
Speaker 1: our bust is cool. I've seen some bands there. We
Speaker 1: got to fill that baby up to My sister puked
Speaker 1: in a garbage can in that lobby.
Speaker 3: My god, remember when I poked in a garbage can?
Speaker 3: We went to that like rave party? All right?
Speaker 2: Sure do okay, stay tuned for crime. Listen to our ads.
Speaker 2: We'll see you in a few seconds. So this episode
Speaker 2: is based on the Willie basket case, and I want
Speaker 2: to say we've researched so many crimes for this podcast.
Speaker 2: This was the most hard for me to organize because
Speaker 2: this person has committed so many crimes.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, they're all.
Speaker 2: Kind of overlapping, so I would be putting it in
Speaker 2: the order, and then I'm like, wait, did he do
Speaker 2: this to this this person or this person or that like.
Speaker 3: It truly was so confusing because.
Speaker 2: There are so many crimes and sentences and overlapping things.
Speaker 2: So you know, I did my best, but truly, I
Speaker 2: bet I fucked up here because I kept switching and
Speaker 2: being like, wait, did he puncture this one's lung or
Speaker 2: did he gash this one's forehead because they both aren't Like.
Speaker 2: It was so many crimes, so many articles. But I
Speaker 2: did get lucky because this all happened in New York
Speaker 2: and so there's a lot of great news and publications there.
Speaker 2: So Willie boskin he is a self proclaimed monster. He's
Speaker 2: a monster baby. Boskett once admitted to committing more than
Speaker 2: two thousand crimes between the ages of nine and fifteen,
Speaker 2: including twenty five stabbings.
Speaker 3: And yes, that is nine. I said nine.
Speaker 2: And you know, when there's legislation and laws that happen
Speaker 2: after you as an example, you know you're bad. He
Speaker 2: once said that he killed for end quote, for the experience.
Speaker 2: He was a child growing up in Harlem, and as
Speaker 2: early as second grade he was trouble.
Speaker 3: Trouble did that even sound lake Taylor Swift? No, not
Speaker 3: at all? Okay, so like it.
Speaker 2: As a small, small child, he threw a typewriter out
Speaker 2: of a third story window and missed a teacher by
Speaker 2: like not a lot of space. And you know, of course,
Speaker 2: classic questions arise about this kind of person. Did the
Speaker 2: courts and juvenile authorities help create the monster? That's what,
Speaker 2: of course he believes, or did his rage stem from
Speaker 2: his upbringing on West one hundred and fourteenth Street in Harlem,
Speaker 2: or another one of his claims is that he was
Speaker 2: destined to follow the path of a father he never met,
Speaker 2: who was also a criminal.
Speaker 3: But also what I was just gonna say, that's the
Speaker 3: kind of thing that always gets live.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you know, yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. And
Speaker 2: of course, in the classic sense of like criminals, oftentimes
Speaker 2: he was abused.
Speaker 3: He was sexually abused by his grandfather.
Speaker 2: So at age nine he was put in his first
Speaker 2: reform school and since then he's only been free a
Speaker 2: total of eighteen months in his life, and that's not consecutively.
Speaker 2: That is included with like escapes in different parole or
Speaker 2: like getting let out. But he's only been in the
Speaker 2: free world a total of eighteen months in his whole
Speaker 2: life past the age of nine.
Speaker 3: That's so so fucked up. It is so when he went.
Speaker 2: In at nine, he says, you know, like he was
Speaker 2: just a bad kid, but he left with all the
Speaker 2: lessons of how to commit crimes. So he was at
Speaker 2: the Brookwood Center for Boys from nineteen seventy four to
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven. And it is a maximum security institution
Speaker 2: and he was in there with murders, rapists, and arm robbers.
Speaker 2: And Sylvia Hoenig is a social worker and she first
Speaker 2: worked with him at age twelve and said that he
Speaker 2: was a terror, like he attacked the staff with clubs,
Speaker 2: smashed windows, stole shit, sodom, I other inmates escaped in
Speaker 2: state vehicles. And then it's hard to blame the facility
Speaker 2: when you are doing this, yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: It's not like you learned all this and you're doing
Speaker 2: it on the way out. You have no fear of
Speaker 2: any authority or like stealing vehicles and catching fire and
Speaker 2: then raping your other inmates.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 2: He was found to be very precocious and empathetic though,
Speaker 2: which I have a hard time believing.
Speaker 3: But that is I guess what the staff found.
Speaker 2: They said that he was warm and did have potential,
Speaker 2: but he was there for stabbing people, so I don't
Speaker 2: understand where the empathy comes out of. And he's quoted
Speaker 2: in the New York Times that he stabbed people because
Speaker 2: in quotes, because they made me mad, So I don't know.
Speaker 2: Honick says he was hardly ever disciplined, and that caused
Speaker 2: him to get more and more like, you know, aggressive.
Speaker 2: In her diaries, it's recorded how Willie was allowed to
Speaker 2: go into town with female staff members and get drunk,
Speaker 2: how he was permitted not to attend class, and then
Speaker 2: you know, all the serious things I mentioned earlier, but
Speaker 2: also he like hit another boy with a poker in
Speaker 2: the boy's eye, and then much chiller stealing cigarettes and
Speaker 2: then selling them, which does seem like normal like jail activities.
Speaker 2: But also he drove a truck into a social worker, so.
Speaker 3: That is what he was up to. But this actually
Speaker 3: reminded me.
Speaker 2: So I have like a little joke about jail that
Speaker 2: I do in my set, and in Sacramento, this dude
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I've been to prison, and he was
Speaker 2: in prison for a long time, and he was telling
Speaker 2: us the whole audience that he would take bottles of
Speaker 2: listrine for commissary, pour it out and then make sweet
Speaker 2: and sour sauce and sell teriyaki and sweet and sour
Speaker 2: sauce throughout the prison and that's how he made money.
Speaker 3: And we were also intrigued.
Speaker 2: And then someone from the back had also been to prison,
Speaker 2: so then she started like how'd you make or like
Speaker 2: asking questions that you would only know from someone on
Speaker 2: the inside, and then he admitted.
Speaker 3: Finally, he goes, I also sold.
Speaker 2: Meth so so your money just wasn't just from the sauces.
Speaker 2: And then we took a photo after the show and
Speaker 2: we got into a prison post and it is so hard,
Speaker 2: like it's gonna be my workout is how to like
Speaker 2: hold a prison post? What's the prison post? It's like
Speaker 2: one leg down. It's kind of like a boy band pose.
Speaker 2: It's like one leg down on your knee and one standing,
Speaker 2: but the knee never hits the floor and then you
Speaker 2: you hold your arm out and then you hold hands
Speaker 2: in the middle.
Speaker 3: But he spoke Russian and we bonded.
Speaker 2: And then after God, another dude came up to me
Speaker 2: and said, oh, I spent this many years in prison.
Speaker 3: That guy doesn't know shit.
Speaker 2: And then there was another girl who was like, I
Speaker 2: didn't like prison, like this guy, I was there for years,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I did not, I've only seen
Speaker 2: hell yeah, I know it is like Sacramento. His heart
Speaker 2: as fuck. And I was, you know, I said this
Speaker 2: like in the last episode. But everyone told me like
Speaker 2: not to go outside and to go for walks because
Speaker 2: people pop out of nowhere. And I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: I mean, I've lived in giant cities, but I'm going
Speaker 2: to listen to the people that live here and not
Speaker 2: walk if they'd tell me not to walk in a
Speaker 2: certain area. And then someone from the club was driving
Speaker 2: me home at night and I saw people pop out
Speaker 2: of bushes and stuff like they truly do, come out
Speaker 2: of anywhere.
Speaker 3: Poppables, no way, popples.
Speaker 1: Yeah wait, that's actually so genius of that guy, because
Speaker 1: prison food's so gross that I bet everybody just wanted
Speaker 1: sweet and sour sauce to like slather it on their
Speaker 1: food and make it like, you.
Speaker 3: Know, sweet and sour sauce. You can kind of eat
Speaker 3: anything with that stuff all over it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he said he worked in the kitchen, so he
Speaker 2: was able to like take ingredients and do it. But
Speaker 2: there's tiktoks of people in jail doing tiktoks of like
Speaker 2: the food that they should try, and they go, that's bustin'
Speaker 2: and it's like cheesy ramen sandwiches and like all the ingredients,
Speaker 2: and I watch them make prison food on these like, wow,
Speaker 2: it's a category of the Internet.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 2: That was a little aside, and I apologize, and we
Speaker 2: are back to this guy last night off he drove
Speaker 2: a truck into a social worker, Okay, and that's the thing.
Speaker 2: It's like, wait, so he's in there and he's blaming
Speaker 2: the authorities in this place and we learned to be bad.
Speaker 2: But then also it seemed like this there weren't any
Speaker 2: rules for him and he was able to do what
Speaker 2: he wanted. And so I'm imagining this like the boy
Speaker 2: from the episode what's the episode with fucking.
Speaker 3: Oh Trials when he drives the car. Yeah, but is
Speaker 3: that the Elizabeth Banks the Julie Bowen one? I always
Speaker 3: fuck it up?
Speaker 1: Okay, there are I hate I hate vegetables. They're just
Speaker 1: they're gross candy. I'm with you, kid, So it's just
Speaker 1: it's really wild. So he got released in nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 1: and so he was fourteen when released, So all of
Speaker 1: this that I just said was before he was fourteen
Speaker 1: years of age.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So they sent him off to a group home in Brooklyn.
Speaker 2: He got a job as a maintenance worker, and the
Speaker 2: supervisor at Brookwood told Honig that was gonna kill somebody
Speaker 2: one of these days, and it's like duh. So he
Speaker 2: goes to Harlem and then him and his cousin, the Judas,
Speaker 2: roam the subways looking for drunks to rob. So March nineteenth,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight, he shot and killed one person in
Speaker 2: the subway system with a twenty two caliber pistol, and
Speaker 2: then eight days later he shot and killed another person.
Speaker 2: And then he got only five years because that was
Speaker 2: the max at the time, So because he was underage,
Speaker 2: even though he shot and killed two people in cold blood,
Speaker 2: he only got five years.
Speaker 3: Jesus.
Speaker 2: So June nineteen seventy eight, he went in to serve
Speaker 2: his time in custody and everyone flipped the fuck out,
Speaker 2: So that led the governor at the time, Hugh Carey,
Speaker 2: to win passage of a new law letting juvenile offenders
Speaker 2: be tried as adults for murder. So now defendants can
Speaker 2: be as young as thirteen and the sentence can range
Speaker 2: from seven years to life. And so New York toughened
Speaker 2: it's juvenile criminal laws because of this guy. And it's
Speaker 2: known as the Willie Basket Law, aka the Juvenile a
Speaker 2: Fender Law, and it remains one of the toughest in
Speaker 2: the nation. And that's from a nineteen eighty five La
Speaker 2: Times article. It went into effect in nineteen seventy eight,
Speaker 2: and even as like it still stands as of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty and stuff like it's there you will be tried
Speaker 2: as an adult if you are a murderer a teener.
Speaker 3: And that was seventy eight.
Speaker 1: Was like when the subway was like at the height
Speaker 1: of being like thunderedome Like the subway at that time
Speaker 1: I think was really really fucked up.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Colin Quinn and his show is it New York Stories,
Speaker 2: or the book that accompanies it is The Coloring Book,
Speaker 2: and it's incredible. But he said, yeah, it's wild to
Speaker 2: see people now on iPhones and iPads in there. He's like,
Speaker 2: I would have to hide my Metro card in my sock. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, like you couldn't have anything.
Speaker 1: My parents lived in the city at that time and
Speaker 1: they never took the subway, and so when I moved
Speaker 1: to the city, you know, twenty five years later, they
Speaker 1: were like, you're not taking the subway, are you? And
Speaker 1: I was like just seven times a day, Like I
Speaker 1: just take it everyone where I go every day. My
Speaker 1: mom couldn't believe it, but it was like she just
Speaker 1: had moved to the suburbs and didn't really realize that
Speaker 1: it had gotten cleaned up, you know.
Speaker 3: But yeah, you know, you're bad when laws are made
Speaker 3: for you.
Speaker 2: So he was at the Goshen Youth Facility and this
Speaker 2: dude bashed two guards in the head with a mop handle,
Speaker 2: and then he also temporarily escaped. Honig said his letters
Speaker 2: became more and more angry, like they kept in touch,
Speaker 2: and he realized and said he mentally prepared himself that
Speaker 2: he's going to be in prison for the rest of
Speaker 2: his life. But December nineteen eighty three, a few days
Speaker 2: before his twenty first birthday, he was released. And then
Speaker 2: March nineteenth and nineteen eighty four, he was arrested for
Speaker 2: attempted robbery, but he kept causing problems in prison. So
Speaker 2: his original charge when he entered in nineteen eighty four
Speaker 2: was a sentence of three and a half to seven
Speaker 2: years where he mugged a half blind seventy two year
Speaker 2: old man in Harlem. But because of all of his
Speaker 2: additional crimes that he committed in prison, it's now like fifty.
Speaker 3: Three to life. So he went in.
Speaker 2: But even that mugging, that seems like such a low
Speaker 2: sentence for a repeat offender. But again, even as like
Speaker 2: a young adult, he set fire to his cells multiple times,
Speaker 2: he would attack the guards that would come in to
Speaker 2: put out the fires.
Speaker 3: And he also didn't look dangerous.
Speaker 2: They said, you know, he was five nine, one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty pounds and he's handsome, dimpled face is what
Speaker 2: they say.
Speaker 3: And I can confirm he is hot. I did find
Speaker 3: one photo of him.
Speaker 2: He is sexy, and hopefully we'll get the rights to
Speaker 2: that photo to put in our Instagram and you can
Speaker 2: go look at him or not. But I would say
Speaker 2: he's probably one of the top cutest criminals we have
Speaker 2: covered one hundred percent, and he had a genius IQ
Speaker 2: and at times like I think it was the La Times.
Speaker 2: One of the articles I was reading compared him to
Speaker 2: Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs, and I had
Speaker 2: to include that because Kara, of course loves Silence of
Speaker 2: the Lambs. Yes, And they also compared him like to
Speaker 2: the Silence of the Lambs movies because of the padlocking
Speaker 2: devices they used to restrain him. They really had to
Speaker 2: restrain the fuck out of this guy, because he kept
Speaker 2: attacking guards and starting fires and beating the shit out
Speaker 2: of people and using weapons and escaping like and Honig
Speaker 2: eventually stopped visiting him. I'm the old social worker. She said,
Speaker 2: she just couldn't because he was living like an animal.
Speaker 2: And the more they treat him like a monster, the
Speaker 2: more monstrous he becomes. And you know, I'm going to
Speaker 2: take a little aside to man to say that it's
Speaker 2: also wild how close to his father his actions are.
Speaker 2: His father, Legit went into the same reform school at
Speaker 2: age nine as well, so they both were in the
Speaker 2: same like locked up place at nine. They both stopped
Speaker 2: schooling in the third grade when Boskett's mother was pregnant
Speaker 2: with him. His father was arrested for a double murder
Speaker 2: at age twenty, killing two people in a Milwaukee pond
Speaker 2: shop in nineteen sixty two, and then the dad escaped,
Speaker 2: robbed a bank and was on the FBI Most Wanted list,
Speaker 2: and then finally locked up in Kansas. But and while
Speaker 2: in Kansas, he ended up graduating from like the program
Speaker 2: with it, you know, with the University of like with
Speaker 2: a university with straight a's, And he got elected to
Speaker 2: be a Phi Beta Kappa, which is Phi Beta Kappa.
Speaker 3: Is like a national honor society. That's crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So he got into that, and then he was
Speaker 2: released in nineteen eighty three, which seems wilder, and then
Speaker 2: got a job at an aerospace company and now back
Speaker 2: to a twist. And then immediately he was charged with
Speaker 2: molesting his girlfriend's daughter. But then the girlfriend helped him escape,
Speaker 2: smuggled him a revolver, and there was a police shootout,
Speaker 2: and his final act came March seventh, nineteen eighty five,
Speaker 2: when he used his two last bullets to kill himself
Speaker 2: and his girlfriend. Oh my god, and now I have
Speaker 2: an even wilder The world is so fat. His grandfather
Speaker 2: was also a criminal who was arrested in nineteen forty
Speaker 2: two for armed robbery and also went to the same
Speaker 2: reform school for boys.
Speaker 3: So it's three generations. It's a cycle.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And when Willy was growing up, and whenever he
Speaker 2: asked about his father, his mother and grandmother would just
Speaker 2: say he's a bad man and you're.
Speaker 3: Just like him.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, he never met his father because he
Speaker 2: was in prison for the double murder at the time
Speaker 2: Willy was born.
Speaker 3: And that's so fucked.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you've just been told you're bad, You're gonna
Speaker 1: be bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like so complicated, so sad, so vish.
Speaker 2: I can't even I don't even know the right words
Speaker 2: to fully dissect all this. So, you know, back to Willy.
Speaker 2: While he's in custody, he stabbed a prison guard and
Speaker 2: then was facing twenty five to life for the attack,
Speaker 2: which happened when he was being interviewed by a journalist
Speaker 2: who's helping him write his autobiography.
Speaker 3: And he's twenty six.
Speaker 2: He's already serving this like twenty five twenty years to life,
Speaker 2: you know, sentence for assault and arson, which have nothing
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 3: While he's there already.
Speaker 2: These more like it's just wild and so he grabbed
Speaker 2: the shoulder of this guard spun him around and then
Speaker 2: stabbed him in the chest. And then he jumped on
Speaker 2: a table and said surround me, surround me, but nobody
Speaker 2: surrounded him, and all the other inmates just backed away
Speaker 2: and left. So he tried to create.
Speaker 1: Some kind of like ryo, and everyone's like, we hate yo,
Speaker 1: so you're not even like yeah.
Speaker 3: So he's in.
Speaker 2: He's the New York State's most violent inmate. And he
Speaker 2: has a special cell that's stripped of everything. No light
Speaker 2: fixtures because he has swallowed those in the past, so
Speaker 2: he can't have lights. The guards aren't even allowed to
Speaker 2: speak to him. And there's a dark quote coming up
Speaker 2: next that is the only noise Willie Boskett is going
Speaker 2: to hear, and that is the sound of his toilet flushing.
Speaker 2: And this was said to The New York Times by
Speaker 2: Thomas A. Coughlin three D, the Commissioner of the Department
Speaker 2: of Correctional Services at the time, and he at one
Speaker 2: point tried to challenge some of the restraints and shot
Speaker 2: in court as cruel and unusual punishment, but he lost
Speaker 2: that case an appeal because you're too wild, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like you can't stab guards and think
Speaker 2: they're going to just keep you in the you know,
Speaker 2: like they're not going.
Speaker 3: To continuously risk themselves.
Speaker 2: But he was fighting for them to stop this one
Speaker 2: restraint because they chain him to his cell door each
Speaker 2: time he's permitted out, so from the in from the outside,
Speaker 2: and he like puts his you know, arms and legs
Speaker 2: through and they shackle him to the door, and then
Speaker 2: they open the door and unshackle him and shackle him
Speaker 2: again because they couldn't trust him at all. And I
Speaker 2: understand why he feels dehumanized by this, but I also
Speaker 2: understand the guards are being like they're getting their lungs punctured,
Speaker 2: you know. And he quote he has a quote Willie
Speaker 2: Bosket where he said, I laugh at this system because
Speaker 2: there ain't a damn thing it can do to me
Speaker 2: except to deal with the monster at his creator it
Speaker 2: has created. And he said this in court when he
Speaker 2: acted as his own lawyer in an assault case. So
Speaker 2: he acted as his own lawyer a lot. He was
Speaker 2: always representing himself. So in his opening statement when he
Speaker 2: stabbed the guard Earl Porter, he was like, the only
Speaker 2: thing I regret is that I didn't kill him. And
Speaker 2: he said that to the jury and that's the punctured lung.
Speaker 2: And then also there was another attack where one time
Speaker 2: he was being led from his cell to the exercise yard,
Speaker 2: and there was a quote to The Times the Correctional
Speaker 2: Services Department James B. Flatteau said, mister Boskett removed a
Speaker 2: restraining chain from his waist to hit the guard. He
Speaker 2: then ran into his cell and closed the door. And
Speaker 2: the guard has a six inch head laceration. He is
Speaker 2: six years old. He's incarcerated at the Wendy Correctional Facility.
Speaker 3: I wonder if you.
Speaker 1: Say it like that, w e ND we talked about
Speaker 1: that facility before.
Speaker 3: I feel like we knew somebody else that's there. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I wonder are you searching in our drive? I'm like,
Speaker 3: let's see who else is there?
Speaker 1: Mark David Chapman, the man who murdered John Lennon, was
Speaker 1: transferred there in twenty twelve. Harvey Weinstein, whoa after he
Speaker 1: was convicted, he was returned.
Speaker 3: Oh wait, that's wrong.
Speaker 1: Wait it says it has him under notable inmates for Wendy,
Speaker 1: So I don't know he.
Speaker 3: Was there for some point. Yeah, so he's still there.
Speaker 2: And one time he said end quote I'll haunt this
Speaker 2: damn system. He has a quote where he said that
Speaker 2: he's going to throw balls of fire back into the
Speaker 2: devil's face. So he's definitely ready for hell. If you
Speaker 2: want to know more about him, there is a book
Speaker 2: called All God's Children, The Basket Family and the American
Speaker 2: Tradition of Violence, and it's written by Fox Butterfield, and
Speaker 2: it's about the root causes of the system of violence,
Speaker 2: from slavery in the South to the dissolution in Harlem.
Speaker 2: So you know, he is black, his family is black,
Speaker 2: and there's just like a long line of bosket family crime,
Speaker 2: like you know, like I said, it's three generations, and
Speaker 2: so this book kind of tracks from slavery where the
Speaker 2: white boss gets ended up, like how this happened and
Speaker 2: how it all ended up in Harlem and this like
Speaker 2: genealogy of crime. I chose not to kind of focus
Speaker 2: on this. You can obviously check the book. I felt
Speaker 2: strange in my own personal feelings to tie a lineage back.
Speaker 2: I feel it like takes away from personal responsibility in
Speaker 2: a way I felt uncomfortable with. But obviously I believe
Speaker 2: in generational trauma.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how things happen and how you're raising this
Speaker 1: guy was a fucking genius if one person had just
Speaker 1: helped him, taken an interest in him, like, you know,
Speaker 1: helped him focus his attention towards something other than violence
Speaker 1: and crime and telling him that he was a piece
Speaker 1: of shit. I wonder how things might have turned out differently,
Speaker 1: But one.
Speaker 2: Hundred percent, Yeah, it's I tried reading a lot of
Speaker 2: the stuff from this book. It was I would say
Speaker 2: over my head, like I was not able to like
Speaker 2: fully connect it. And in the show notes that the
Speaker 2: La Times article really touched on this book and the
Speaker 2: lineage of just the history of crime and violence that
Speaker 2: he was raised in, and so there's definitely more to
Speaker 2: explore with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just h but I had no idea the
Speaker 3: middle of New York. Yeah, and this is the guy
Speaker 3: where Juvenile.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's like we've sort of debated that in
Speaker 1: many SVU episodes, like Trying Kids as Adults and like
Speaker 1: the episode Juvenile where one kid is going to get
Speaker 1: charged even though he didn't do the majority of it
Speaker 1: because he's fourteen versus thirteen, you know, or whatever the
Speaker 1: little arbitrary cut off lines of age are.
Speaker 3: But that's crazy.
Speaker 1: This guy is like who put that legislature, legislature out there,
Speaker 1: but thank you for telling us all that. Let's roll
Speaker 1: right into our post mortem, baby wow. So that concludes
Speaker 1: the two part arc that you've all been clamoring for
Speaker 1: about a psychotic eight year old that becomes a psychotic
Speaker 1: eighteen year old um or ten year old to eighteen
Speaker 1: year old.
Speaker 2: I thought that Dad, he deserves to die, and I
Speaker 2: don't feel bad for him. I just feel bad for
Speaker 2: his son and wife that had to die because.
Speaker 1: Of him, because of his inability to look at the
Speaker 1: truth or taken any information about his son's condition.
Speaker 3: What it's really fucked up. There's really nothing to say.
Speaker 2: I hate that Dad obviously shouldn't have been let out
Speaker 2: that the psychiatric place should be held responsible.
Speaker 3: He's like, what the fuck? I know, because it's like everybody,
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess it's like we just placed so much stock
Speaker 1: in someone being a child. Whereas it's like Ted Bundy
Speaker 1: was charming, the fucking kemp and Kemper was funny, was charming.
Speaker 1: These guys can be charming, like you can fool people
Speaker 1: like it's just it's wild how the doctor was like,
Speaker 1: no one's ever fooled me. And a whole staff before
Speaker 1: It's like, this is the best psychopath ever, We've met,
Speaker 1: the biggest, Like he's the best one.
Speaker 3: Like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like there had to have been signs, even
Speaker 1: in the courtroom when he gives that little like dead
Speaker 1: eyed half smile.
Speaker 3: I just tried to do it, and I truly looked
Speaker 3: like I was.
Speaker 2: I needed Trey McDougall to be there to testify. But
Speaker 2: he's probably in prison for murder.
Speaker 1: He's in prison for murdering another psychopath.
Speaker 3: He did the opposite of what this dad did.
Speaker 1: He took matters into his own fucking hands and save
Speaker 1: the world from a psych a tiny psycho.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't even remember.
Speaker 2: Oh that a Conscience is that episode if you want
Speaker 2: to check that out.
Speaker 1: Yes, Conscience hard to spell, easy to watch, great video,
Speaker 1: great great episode.
Speaker 2: Ypsod of television, sad crime. But listen, you can't keep
Speaker 2: attacking guards. You will be in a silent room with
Speaker 2: no friends. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I do think it's cool too that the show like
Speaker 1: got him back and was able to like do kind
Speaker 1: of like a eight years later type of episode. That's
Speaker 1: like a neat thing that you don't see in television
Speaker 1: a lot. So it's a cool it's a cool thing.
Speaker 1: But I love that Amanda Rollins.
Speaker 2: She'll flirt with a child, with a teen, with a
Speaker 2: grown person, she'll flirt Oh yeah, a.
Speaker 1: Psychopath personality disorder. I mean she does not care. She
Speaker 1: will flirt with you like you are getting a swipe
Speaker 1: from Amanda Rollins for sure. And I mean it was
Speaker 1: a stupid move, but I thought it was cool. They
Speaker 1: did a scene in a funhouse. I thought it was
Speaker 1: a cool cinematically. I liked the funhouse scene, I.
Speaker 2: Thought, honestly, making me really bummed now that the we're
Speaker 2: not going to get new episodes.
Speaker 3: I know, I know what.
Speaker 2: The whole time at the beach, I kept thinking of
Speaker 2: the sv episode about the lifeguard, about the powerful life guard.
Speaker 1: I mean, Dark's the most powerful lifeguard. But it was
Speaker 1: so funny.
Speaker 2: So then our friends came later to the beach and
Speaker 2: one of them was like, wow, it looks so calm
Speaker 2: and nice, and I was like someone was saved a
Speaker 2: half hour ago, Like what are you talking about? The
Speaker 2: waves are insane. I've never been dragged down like this
Speaker 2: in my life. I was fully dragged and spun under
Speaker 2: the waves multiple times, hitting the sand like it was
Speaker 2: nuts out there. But I had my goggles, thank you
Speaker 2: to my father, So I was ready for it.
Speaker 3: But it was not.
Speaker 1: You were wearing goggles at the beach, of course I was.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever seen that.
Speaker 2: Oh why would I want the saltwater splashing into my
Speaker 2: sensitive eyes when I want goggles?
Speaker 1: I guess because like when I go to the beach,
Speaker 1: like when I go to the ocean, I kind of
Speaker 1: just like wade in and maybe I'll dunk my head under.
Speaker 1: But I'm not like swimming the way I'm swimming in
Speaker 1: a pool as much.
Speaker 2: No, I'm trying to jump in those waves. I'm trying
Speaker 2: to ride the waves bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do I know your boogie boys, I'm the Sean
Speaker 1: wife of the rock ways.
Speaker 3: You sh right up the last. I love that. But
Speaker 3: I just that's funny.
Speaker 1: Like, write me and tell me if you consider goggles
Speaker 1: to be a beach thing or a pool thing or both.
Speaker 3: I could.
Speaker 2: I brought them into the pool too, and my friend
Speaker 2: laughed on my face. But because that was chic, that
Speaker 2: was more chic. It was like a sexy hotel, no
Speaker 2: children allowed.
Speaker 1: You're also basically talking right into a plot line from
Speaker 1: the episode of this from this episode of SVU. You
Speaker 1: were basically almost dragged under like that little kid who
Speaker 1: died at the beach while the psycho just watched, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, Yeah, did you let the ocean take what
Speaker 1: it wanted and then it just spit you back out?
Speaker 2: Kind of because I'm a good knock on wood, I'm
Speaker 2: a I'm a good swimmer. Yeah I knew, Yeah, I
Speaker 2: knew the lifeguards were on. It was fin What happened
Speaker 2: was so our friends, there's two Julia's they were they
Speaker 2: were at the place where they were riding the waves,
Speaker 2: and that's where I wanted to get.
Speaker 3: But anytime I tried to get.
Speaker 2: To them to ride the waves, I was swushed back
Speaker 2: and thrown so far. So it was like a forty
Speaker 2: five minute excursion to try to get to them and
Speaker 2: just being beaten up. My tit's falling out. People lost
Speaker 2: body goggles askew. But I know I don't go into
Speaker 2: the ocean without goggles.
Speaker 1: And you know what, it's crazy that I'm even I
Speaker 1: hate saltwater in my eyes, like I hate it. So
Speaker 1: that's why I'm kind of like when I go in
Speaker 1: I'm just more of like a waiter in the ocean,
Speaker 1: and I'm not like I don't I never as a kid,
Speaker 1: I never wore goggles in the ocean.
Speaker 2: Well that's because your dad didn't steal things from the
Speaker 2: pool Lost and found.
Speaker 3: You know, I wish, I can only wish. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: I have lots of goggles because my dad is a thief.
Speaker 1: Wait, and we didn't even get to this, but you
Speaker 1: did a big surprise for your parents. You want you
Speaker 1: surprise them on your birthday?
Speaker 3: I shir did? It really works out great?
Speaker 1: If you don't watch Lisa's if you don't follow glitter
Speaker 1: Cheese on Instagram, what, I don't know what you're doing
Speaker 1: with your life. But you can see a video of
Speaker 1: it there of her surprising your parents, and it's very sweet.
Speaker 2: And I'm on TikTok. I'm trying to get viral. I'm
Speaker 2: trying to get famous on Ti TikTok. And I'm you know,
Speaker 2: it's embarrassing to say out loud, but it is the truth.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there you have it.
Speaker 2: I'll use my player path Yeah more psychopath Get ready
Speaker 2: for segments, guys, Get ready, because I am I'm trying
Speaker 2: to get famous on TikTok. I'm watching all these other people.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I think I'm funnier than these guys. Of course,
Speaker 2: watching a woman shake a salad in the front seat
Speaker 2: of her car on a lunch break.
Speaker 3: I'm watching a woman eat one o TikTok is so weird.
Speaker 3: What goes viral like this.
Speaker 1: One girl, Bella Porch is famous, famous on TikTok, and
Speaker 1: literally her first video is like from her just like
Speaker 1: wiggling her nose and crossing her eyes to a song
Speaker 1: and she's and she's hot, you know, like that's it.
Speaker 1: It's like wild. And now she's literally like a millionaire
Speaker 1: and she has songs and like a huge career.
Speaker 2: Get ready, guys, Get ready, guys, that's what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do it. You know, think I used there.
Speaker 2: You don't think there's twenty five segments coming out of
Speaker 2: my parents home.
Speaker 3: You're wrong.
Speaker 2: Watch out, guy, I'm heading for TikTok stardom.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 3: I was getting really dragged down. It was wild.
Speaker 2: But also what's nice is you don't want to lose
Speaker 2: your sunglasses in the ocean, you know, because you could
Speaker 2: get hit by a wave. But you get the sun
Speaker 2: protection too. With the goggles like it's a little dimmer.
Speaker 2: Oh you know, yeah, because I have had my sunglasses
Speaker 2: fly off.
Speaker 1: I think that's what I do is I wear sunglasses
Speaker 1: because I figure, oh, those will stop me any air
Speaker 1: and water from splashing in my eyes. But I don't
Speaker 1: really go under that much in the ocean because of
Speaker 1: the salt water. I don't like it in my eyes.
Speaker 1: So maybe I'm a goggle girl. Maybe you've convinced me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I gotta get Rosy a new pair the speedo's I
Speaker 1: got or keep falling off. Her hair's too like silky?
Speaker 1: Is your hair too silky for goggles? Call this number below.
Speaker 3: They just keep falling down and she doesn't and then she.
Speaker 1: They you have to keep them tight, but then she
Speaker 1: doesn't like that they're tight and they're making a crease
Speaker 1: around her eyes.
Speaker 3: You know you can't win.
Speaker 1: Let's get into our Do you have any final thoughts?
Speaker 3: Jerry Springer? Do I have final thoughts on the beach
Speaker 3: or or anything?
Speaker 1: Psychopaths so beath children being locked up forever?
Speaker 3: Who who can know?
Speaker 1: I definitely think we have to be careful about kids.
Speaker 1: We brand a psychopath because, like you know, my son
Speaker 1: will giggle and be having a great time and then
Speaker 1: just slash me with his nails in the face. I
Speaker 1: don't think he's a psychopath, you know. People tell me
Speaker 1: that's age appropriate, So we should just be careful who
Speaker 1: we do decide to call a psycho, even though I've
Speaker 1: met many children that are riding the line, baby.
Speaker 3: But they have to take the test. But this gu
Speaker 3: right into our own.
Speaker 2: The thing with my parents' surprise, this is what I
Speaker 2: wanted to say. Oh yeah, I think visiting family three
Speaker 2: days is perfect an event with three days, that's the
Speaker 2: secret number. You come in, you're surprised, they can't believe
Speaker 2: they're seeing you. We have a great dinner, we play
Speaker 2: some game. You know, I had such fun times with
Speaker 2: my sister, like it is, and then you leave while
Speaker 2: they're still wanting more.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Day two is like a fun first full day solid.
Speaker 1: By day three you're like, I'm getting a little sick
Speaker 1: of it, and then you you're out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it was really fun.
Speaker 2: And our poor cat is so old now though her
Speaker 2: she can't retract her clause anymore. Oh no, like, so
Speaker 2: they're just out, they're just out, and then they keep
Speaker 2: getting stuck in blankets and then she like howls and
Speaker 2: you have to unhook her.
Speaker 3: It's sad poor mania.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, go into this go, let's go.
Speaker 1: Okay, So this week, you guys know, I'm like a
Speaker 1: little bit obsessed with psychopaths. And for this week's what
Speaker 1: would Sister Peg Do, which is our weekly segment where
Speaker 1: we direct you towards a blog, post, a podcast, an organization.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: In this case, we're gonna direct you towards a book
Speaker 1: that just something to give you a little bit more
Speaker 1: knowledge about what we.
Speaker 3: Talked about in today's episode.
Speaker 1: And I read a book that I really enjoyed called
Speaker 1: The psychopath Test, A Journey through the Madness Industry by
Speaker 1: John Ronson. John Ronson's written a bunch of books that
Speaker 1: I loved. Also another book called So You've Been Publicly Shamed.
Speaker 1: He's he almost does like it's like it's more like sociological.
Speaker 1: I feel like the way he writes books, it's not
Speaker 1: like I wouldn't. This is like a book about psychopathy
Speaker 1: that I think is more accessible to those of us
Speaker 1: that are not scholars, and like it's not a text
Speaker 1: that you're going to read from a college professor. And
Speaker 1: so obviously there's more digging to do if you really
Speaker 1: want to learn about this kind of thing. But I
Speaker 1: think for like an overview, The Psychopaths Test was a
Speaker 1: very interesting book and I found it super readable as
Speaker 1: like a layman and a non scholar and a non
Speaker 1: like you know, psychology student. So he interviews purported psychopaths
Speaker 1: as well as psychologists and psychiatrists who study them. It
Speaker 1: spends a lot of time with Robert D. Hare, the
Speaker 1: author of the hair Psychopathy Checklist that I mentioned in
Speaker 1: the first episode, Born Psychopath. But overall, it's an examination
Speaker 1: of the mental health industry at large, which I know
Speaker 1: many of our listeners and we are interested in. So
Speaker 1: we will have a link to that in our show
Speaker 1: notes on our stories the day that the show releases,
Speaker 1: this episode releases, and all of our what would sister
Speaker 1: peg dos are saved in highlights called WWSPD on our
Speaker 1: Instagram page.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, really appreciate that. And next week
Speaker 2: we will be covering Futility. That's season four, episode twenty two,
Speaker 2: So please join us, you know, throw us some five stars,
Speaker 2: send us a nice message, whatever, you know, whatever, We're
Speaker 2: obsessed with all of you. See us on the road
Speaker 2: and next week Futility. Bye guys, That's Messed Up as
Speaker 2: an Exactly Right production. If you have compliments you'd like
Speaker 2: to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover,
Speaker 2: shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail
Speaker 2: dot com. Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed
Speaker 2: Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and
Speaker 2: follow us personally at Karraklank and at glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much to our producer KC.
Speaker 1: O'Brien, and to our exer John Bradley and our guest
Speaker 1: booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme
Speaker 1: song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you
Speaker 1: to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer,
Speaker 1: and everybody at Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 3: Dun Dunn