WEBVTT - When You Come at the King: Holding Presidents to Account (with Elie Honig) 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:29.404 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 0:00:29.524 --> 0:00:32.164 better decisions. I'm Maria Kanikova. 0:00:31.804 --> 0:00:32.884 And I'm Nate Silver. 0:00:33.484 --> 0:00:36.044 So today on the show, we have a special guest 0:00:36.124 --> 0:00:41.004 for you, Ellie Honig, who is CNN's senior legal analyst, 0:00:41.204 --> 0:00:47.124 former federal prosecutor, author of two prior bestsellers, Hatchetman and Untouchable, 0:00:47.444 --> 0:00:51.524 and he has a new book coming out called When 0:00:51.604 --> 0:00:52.924 You've Come at the King. 0:00:54.124 --> 0:00:54.884 It was great. 0:00:54.964 --> 0:00:58.124 I really enjoyed it. Ellie and I actually first met 0:00:58.524 --> 0:01:01.244 many years ago when I was working on my book 0:01:01.404 --> 0:01:04.164 The Confidence Game about con artists, and we were introduced 0:01:04.164 --> 0:01:07.364 by his former BOSSU pret Berrara, and both of them 0:01:07.404 --> 0:01:11.804 were incredibly hopeful to me in yeah, getting the background 0:01:11.844 --> 0:01:15.124 for that, getting case information and basically taking down some 0:01:15.244 --> 0:01:16.804 of the con artists, some of the bad guys who 0:01:16.884 --> 0:01:19.404 I took down in my book. So it's uh, it's 0:01:19.444 --> 0:01:22.284 great to be uh to be here with you. Congratulations 0:01:22.364 --> 0:01:24.284 on the book which is out this week. 0:01:26.004 --> 0:01:28.164 Thank you, Thank you so Maria. You you know I 0:01:28.204 --> 0:01:30.404 had you on my podcast, if you remember, I did 0:01:30.444 --> 0:01:32.724 a mob podcast and I needed somebody to help me 0:01:33.124 --> 0:01:36.004 deep dive the psychology of what goes into a gangster. 0:01:36.044 --> 0:01:39.804 You had written about that for some magazine outlet and 0:01:41.684 --> 0:01:45.084 some outlet or other whatever it's called. And Nate, you 0:01:45.124 --> 0:01:46.644 are in the book, by the way, you are in 0:01:46.684 --> 0:01:47.204 this book. 0:01:48.204 --> 0:01:51.324 Nate, you're on page Nate, you're on page one fifty three. 0:01:51.964 --> 0:01:53.564 Pretty good. How long is this book? 0:01:53.564 --> 0:01:54.804 I mean, is it the first half? 0:01:55.004 --> 0:01:56.764 You're in exactly halftime. 0:01:56.884 --> 0:01:58.884 Yes, it's about three hundred pages long, so you're about 0:01:58.924 --> 0:02:03.004 le halfway through. On the Hillary Clinton emails and whether 0:02:04.124 --> 0:02:06.764 the cam An investigation ended up costing her the. 0:02:06.684 --> 0:02:09.284 Election, you got it. And and Nate you your conclusion 0:02:09.284 --> 0:02:13.084 I think was boiled down was basically probably. But we 0:02:13.124 --> 0:02:15.644 can't know for sure, right, we can't know for sure. 0:02:16.524 --> 0:02:17.884 I've blurred it all out of my head. 0:02:18.364 --> 0:02:23.524 But yeah, the book takes us through the history of 0:02:24.444 --> 0:02:26.404 I don't know what to call it, Special Counsel and 0:02:26.444 --> 0:02:30.044 dependent council. Depending on the point in time that we're 0:02:30.084 --> 0:02:33.844 talking about, it's called different things. But before we move forward, 0:02:33.964 --> 0:02:36.604 can you just define what this is what this office 0:02:36.804 --> 0:02:38.444 actually is, regardless of name. 0:02:38.684 --> 0:02:40.804 So it's changed a bit over the years, but currently 0:02:40.844 --> 0:02:44.644 we call it special Counsel and this is an official 0:02:44.684 --> 0:02:48.164 who can be appointed by the United States Attorney General 0:02:48.524 --> 0:02:51.884 in order to conduct a criminal investigation that would pose 0:02:51.884 --> 0:02:55.004 a conflict of interest for DOJ itself or other quote 0:02:55.044 --> 0:02:58.324 extraordinary circumstances. So conflict of interest would mean something like, 0:02:58.364 --> 0:03:01.644 we're investigating the president, who can hire and fire the 0:03:01.644 --> 0:03:04.804 attorney general. But also plenty of ags have pointed to 0:03:04.924 --> 0:03:09.684 extraordinary circumstances, which means essentially whatever the AG feels like me, 0:03:09.724 --> 0:03:12.404 and so there's definitely some wiggle room there. But it's 0:03:12.444 --> 0:03:15.564 a prosecutor within DJ appointed by the Attorney General for 0:03:15.684 --> 0:03:17.484 a specific high profile case. 0:03:18.004 --> 0:03:22.964 And by the way, I'm I'm going to represent that 0:03:23.164 --> 0:03:28.164 I'm guessing substantial minority, maybe majority, of a civil bulletin 0:03:28.244 --> 0:03:31.604 audience who thinks. 0:03:31.364 --> 0:03:33.364 All this legal stuff. They just don't really. 0:03:33.164 --> 0:03:36.404 Have the compartment for it in their brain, right. They 0:03:36.564 --> 0:03:40.204 like elections, they like strategy, they like maybe they like 0:03:40.204 --> 0:03:43.644 cultural fights. But the legal stuff. Yeah, so I'm gonna 0:03:43.644 --> 0:03:45.164 be the I'm gonna ask the dumb questions. 0:03:45.284 --> 0:03:47.764 Thank you for asking that. No, but listen, this book 0:03:47.844 --> 0:03:50.164 is No. I don't do legal ease, and if I do, 0:03:50.244 --> 0:03:52.844 I will explain it. But like, what drives this book 0:03:52.924 --> 0:03:56.364 is the stories. I mean, I interviewed thirty five thirty 0:03:56.364 --> 0:03:58.324 six people on record. By the way, nobody. I didn't 0:03:58.324 --> 0:04:01.244 allow anybody to be anonymous. People who from WA Aregate 0:04:01.284 --> 0:04:04.004 prosecutors up until Donald Trump and Jack Smith that case. 0:04:04.044 --> 0:04:06.084 I mean, I don't talk to Donald Trump and Jack Smith, 0:04:06.124 --> 0:04:09.364 but people lawyers on the case. So what really drives us. 0:04:09.724 --> 0:04:11.444 I love the stories, I love the drama of it. 0:04:11.484 --> 0:04:14.764 And what you see is it's so human, Like we 0:04:14.964 --> 0:04:17.844 look at the law as a set of written statutes 0:04:17.884 --> 0:04:20.724 and rules. But having been a lawyer and a prosecutor 0:04:20.764 --> 0:04:23.284 for fourteen years and having written this book, I guess 0:04:23.484 --> 0:04:26.644 one of the major themes is it's so much about 0:04:26.684 --> 0:04:31.284 the human element, the human emotions, motivations, frailties, and as 0:04:31.364 --> 0:04:33.724 much as we try to design these systems, and that's important, 0:04:34.124 --> 0:04:35.844 the actual people are way more important. 0:04:36.684 --> 0:04:39.444 Yeah, And I think we get at that from the 0:04:39.484 --> 0:04:42.204 title of the book. The title comes from you know, 0:04:42.204 --> 0:04:44.804 one of the best TV shows of all time, Slash, 0:04:44.844 --> 0:04:46.884 one of the best political science books of all time. 0:04:47.124 --> 0:04:49.844 So When You Come at the King is originally Machiavelli, 0:04:50.444 --> 0:04:53.684 but we know it from Omar in the Wire, and 0:04:53.684 --> 0:04:55.764 that was a very very I think that's such an 0:04:55.804 --> 0:04:59.924 interesting choice because Omar is not exactly like the hero 0:05:00.124 --> 0:05:03.164 that you would think that, you know, a prosecutor would 0:05:03.204 --> 0:05:05.324 choose to title his book, and he has a very 0:05:05.404 --> 0:05:07.204 he has a code of ethics, right, he has his 0:05:07.284 --> 0:05:10.284 code of morals, but it's very specific. So I just 0:05:10.364 --> 0:05:13.324 wanted to before we get into, you know, the important 0:05:13.324 --> 0:05:15.844 stuff in the book, I wanted to ask about the 0:05:15.884 --> 0:05:19.124 inspiration behind your title and kind of the background of that. 0:05:20.284 --> 0:05:22.804 Taken from Omar and The Wire. Omar, of course, for 0:05:22.804 --> 0:05:24.404 those who haven't watched The Wire is sort of the 0:05:24.444 --> 0:05:28.084 lone wolfson pace Michael K. Williams May the late great 0:05:28.124 --> 0:05:31.804 Michael K. Williams. He is the lone Wolf assassin basically, 0:05:31.844 --> 0:05:33.724 and one of it there's a famous scene where he says, 0:05:33.764 --> 0:05:35.724 you come at the King, you best not miss now. 0:05:35.844 --> 0:05:38.924 I will confess I had a sense that that maybe 0:05:39.204 --> 0:05:42.444 went pre Omar, and as you said, Maria, it did 0:05:42.484 --> 0:05:45.364 go back, goes back to Machiavelli, Emerson, others, but let's 0:05:45.404 --> 0:05:48.524 be real, nobody said it as well as Omar. And 0:05:48.844 --> 0:05:51.084 there's really two things that motivate I didn't have the 0:05:51.084 --> 0:05:52.444 title one. I mean, I don't know if you tend 0:05:52.444 --> 0:05:54.524 to have your titles when you start your books. I haven't. 0:05:54.724 --> 0:05:57.444 I come up with them as I go, right, But 0:05:57.564 --> 0:06:00.244 two things. One, the stakes for all involved. I mean 0:06:00.284 --> 0:06:03.604 I talk to these people who are very accomplished prosecutors, 0:06:03.604 --> 0:06:06.244 defense lawyers, white House officials, and they all basically were 0:06:06.284 --> 0:06:08.644 like I'm paraphrasing, you know, but they all basically said, 0:06:08.684 --> 0:06:10.964 we knew that this is this was all I'd be 0:06:11.044 --> 0:06:16.604 remembered for. This was life or death politically, legally, et cetera, professionally. 0:06:17.004 --> 0:06:19.004 The other thing is the retribution angle, right, That's the 0:06:19.044 --> 0:06:20.804 point of what Omar saying, if you're gonna come after 0:06:20.844 --> 0:06:23.404 the king, you best not miss otherwise there will be retribution. 0:06:23.884 --> 0:06:26.204 And that I think reflects very much what's happening certainly 0:06:26.324 --> 0:06:28.084 right now with Donald Trump. 0:06:28.724 --> 0:06:33.004 Yes, I think retribution has definitely been part of the 0:06:33.964 --> 0:06:37.324 both implicit and explicit motives for for a long time. 0:06:37.604 --> 0:06:41.084 The office, and what I say the office, I mean 0:06:41.124 --> 0:06:45.684 the Office of Special Counsel is first created after Watergate, right, 0:06:45.724 --> 0:06:49.524 not before, like when Watergate happens, this doesn't even exist. 0:06:49.564 --> 0:06:52.604 It leads to the creation. I somehow didn't realize that. 0:06:52.724 --> 0:06:56.004 But you know, can we just talk about you know, first, 0:06:56.084 --> 0:06:58.404 why now, like why you decided to write this right now, 0:06:58.684 --> 0:07:02.364 And secondly, like why why we're starting you know, why 0:07:02.404 --> 0:07:04.804 you decided to take kind of this historical approach as 0:07:04.804 --> 0:07:07.324 opposed to just like boom, we're going to start with 0:07:07.364 --> 0:07:09.524 Donald Trump put us right in the. 0:07:09.444 --> 0:07:11.804 I mean, look, there are two chapters here about Donald Trump, 0:07:11.884 --> 0:07:14.324 the two big Trump investigations. But the end part, and 0:07:14.364 --> 0:07:16.364 this is the why now, is geared at what's happening 0:07:16.444 --> 0:07:19.364 right now, because I argue in the book it's fundamentally 0:07:19.364 --> 0:07:22.724 different in kind than anything we've seen throughout our history. Now, 0:07:22.964 --> 0:07:24.804 I wanted to go back. I actually wondered when was 0:07:24.804 --> 0:07:27.444 the first outside we'll just call them outside prosecutors, because, 0:07:27.444 --> 0:07:30.684 as you say, the nomenclature changes. But you know, Watergate's 0:07:30.724 --> 0:07:32.644 the first one that I think registered for all of 0:07:32.804 --> 0:07:35.364 you know, I mean, it's before all three of our times. 0:07:35.644 --> 0:07:37.364 I will say I was born in nineteen seventy five, 0:07:37.444 --> 0:07:41.284 so it was over by then. But the first one 0:07:41.364 --> 0:07:43.204 was Grant Ulysses ays Grant. The reason I put it 0:07:43.244 --> 0:07:46.204 in there is because so many of the moves we've 0:07:46.204 --> 0:07:49.004 become accustomed to we're being done back then. Like it's 0:07:49.044 --> 0:07:50.964 a long story, I tell it in like one page, 0:07:50.964 --> 0:07:53.844 but basically there was a kickback scheme with whiskey distillers 0:07:53.844 --> 0:07:56.524 in Missouri, and so Grant gets pressured into appointing an 0:07:56.524 --> 0:07:59.724 outside process of course, right, And what ends up happening. 0:08:00.044 --> 0:08:02.724 The outside prosecutor starts, you know, picking up some low, 0:08:02.804 --> 0:08:04.924 low hanging fruit, and then he starts getting close to Grant, 0:08:04.924 --> 0:08:07.244 and Grant fires him, and then the media attacks Grant, 0:08:07.244 --> 0:08:09.124 and then Grant says, the media is out to get me. 0:08:09.164 --> 0:08:12.924 I mean, it's all so familiar. We've seen it happen many, 0:08:12.964 --> 0:08:16.084 many times. But Watergate, you're right, I mean people may 0:08:16.124 --> 0:08:19.204 not realize. John Dean, the famous you know, Watergate witness, 0:08:19.284 --> 0:08:21.404 the former White House counsel, said to me it was 0:08:21.444 --> 0:08:25.124 improv There was no at that time, special council, independent 0:08:25.124 --> 0:08:28.204 council laws, regulations anything that we got them right after 0:08:28.324 --> 0:08:30.644 because of Watergate. But they were making it up as 0:08:30.684 --> 0:08:32.324 they went along. They did a pretty good job. But 0:08:33.524 --> 0:08:36.004 you know that that was the motivation, that was the 0:08:36.364 --> 0:08:37.804 reason we have these rules now. 0:08:39.364 --> 0:08:42.164 And you know, even back then, though, I found it 0:08:42.204 --> 0:08:47.764 really interesting that they were scared that their investigation would 0:08:47.804 --> 0:08:50.764 be shut down, yeah, and that the evidence would be destroyed. 0:08:51.204 --> 0:08:53.564 So I actually thought it was really interesting that people 0:08:53.644 --> 0:08:56.764 brought files home and hid them to try to make 0:08:56.804 --> 0:09:00.444 sure that they would actually have evidence to prosecute. That 0:09:00.644 --> 0:09:03.964 was not something we learned in US history, you know 0:09:04.044 --> 0:09:07.124 that even back then, because to me it seemed, you know, 0:09:07.404 --> 0:09:09.604 I think, because I'm not a lawyer, I don't know, 0:09:09.804 --> 0:09:12.324 don't have a legal background. So maybe this, you know, 0:09:12.364 --> 0:09:15.764 as just a consumer of this, it's probably quite naive 0:09:15.844 --> 0:09:17.684 of me, But I had thought that this kind of 0:09:17.884 --> 0:09:22.524 threat to you know, to the prosecution was more of 0:09:22.564 --> 0:09:26.404 a modern thing, right, was something that just happened basically. Now, 0:09:26.724 --> 0:09:28.884 I didn't realize that this is something that people had 0:09:28.924 --> 0:09:31.404 been living with, and that the office was partly created 0:09:31.684 --> 0:09:32.644 to try to mitigate that. 0:09:33.044 --> 0:09:33.524 Exactly. 0:09:33.524 --> 0:09:37.724 We protect the people who were trying to run these investigations. 0:09:37.884 --> 0:09:40.244 So the book opens with the story from Jill Wyne Banks, 0:09:40.284 --> 0:09:42.964 who was then thirty years old, one of the Watergate prosecutors, 0:09:42.964 --> 0:09:45.804 and she told me candidly she would bring photo copies, 0:09:45.844 --> 0:09:48.684 not originals, but photocopies of key pieces of evidence, notes, 0:09:49.324 --> 0:09:52.284 witness summaries home and put them in a box because 0:09:52.364 --> 0:09:56.764 they were afraid that Nixon's goons would ransack the office, 0:09:56.844 --> 0:09:59.444 and that sort of ended up happening and she says 0:09:59.484 --> 0:10:02.804 to me something like, I don't know how smartly I 0:10:02.884 --> 0:10:04.604 thought through my options, and it may have been on 0:10:04.644 --> 0:10:06.724 the borderline of what we call Rule six e, which 0:10:06.764 --> 0:10:09.004 is like the grand jury secrecy rules, she said, but 0:10:09.124 --> 0:10:11.444 we like, in order to protect our investigation, we had 0:10:11.484 --> 0:10:13.604 to do that. And I love the historical echoes in 0:10:13.644 --> 0:10:16.364 the book because if you fast forward forty some years, 0:10:16.764 --> 0:10:19.764 the Mueller team did almost the same thing, higher tech, 0:10:20.084 --> 0:10:22.484 but they you know, I talked to FBI agents and 0:10:22.844 --> 0:10:25.404 prosecutors on that team. They said, we made a point 0:10:25.444 --> 0:10:28.044 of backing up like you back up your files every 0:10:28.124 --> 0:10:31.484 day to an off site server, because we were worried 0:10:31.924 --> 0:10:34.204 that same thing that Trump's people would come in and 0:10:34.324 --> 0:10:36.644 take over and shut down the office. So when you 0:10:36.684 --> 0:10:39.564 see those echoes, I think it tells us something about 0:10:39.724 --> 0:10:42.924 sort of the common instinct for self preservation that both 0:10:42.964 --> 0:10:44.564 presidents and prosecutors have. 0:10:45.644 --> 0:10:49.764 There's got to be some like Kinkos in Arlington, Virginia 0:10:49.844 --> 0:10:52.044 where they know every government secret from like nineteen seventy 0:10:52.044 --> 0:10:54.444 five until what do people saw photocopy in two thousand 0:10:54.484 --> 0:10:55.284 and five or something. 0:10:55.684 --> 0:10:57.324 I can I tell you something along those lines of day. 0:10:57.444 --> 0:10:59.204 So there's a moment in here when I'm talking about 0:10:59.204 --> 0:11:00.844 the Star Report, which I don't know how old you 0:11:00.844 --> 0:11:02.684 all are, but that, right, this is the big Ken 0:11:02.764 --> 0:11:05.764 Star Report, and I was trying to explain to people. 0:11:05.564 --> 0:11:08.364 Are fifty shades of gray right exactly? 0:11:08.404 --> 0:11:12.004 Yeah, A how this broke was the first real massive 0:11:12.084 --> 0:11:13.844 Internet moment. I mean, I remember I was in law 0:11:13.844 --> 0:11:16.364 school at the time. I remember download download download things 0:11:16.364 --> 0:11:19.284 were crashing, right, and there's all these articles about like 0:11:19.404 --> 0:11:22.244 can this new thing called the internet support this? But 0:11:22.404 --> 0:11:26.324 at one point I wrote, however many copies Borders order? Borders, 0:11:26.364 --> 0:11:28.284 you guys both know was the big bookstore, right. I 0:11:28.284 --> 0:11:31.564 spent half our lives in Borders as kids. And my 0:11:32.604 --> 0:11:35.124 one of my copy editors, a much younger person, said, 0:11:35.564 --> 0:11:37.924 you're going to have to drop a parenthetical explaining what 0:11:37.964 --> 0:11:39.724 that is. So there is a section there where I 0:11:39.724 --> 0:11:41.524 say borders and it's sad, but I had to have 0:11:41.804 --> 0:11:47.124 borders Parenz, which used to be a major national bookstore Kinkos. 0:11:47.124 --> 0:11:50.204 I think Faul would fall into the same category eight this. 0:11:50.444 --> 0:11:53.444 I think the Star Report was a really you know, 0:11:53.524 --> 0:11:56.124 as I could have told you before we started taping. 0:11:56.564 --> 0:11:59.484 My first I was still in I think elementary school, 0:11:59.524 --> 0:12:01.604 you know, when this was all happening, and it's my 0:12:01.684 --> 0:12:05.404 first political memory, like my first big political memory was 0:12:05.764 --> 0:12:08.324 you know, Monica Lewinski and Star and all of this. 0:12:08.524 --> 0:12:10.004 I didn't read it too little. 0:12:10.444 --> 0:12:12.764 It was allowed to. It was a little too. 0:12:12.684 --> 0:12:17.004 Tittilating for the likes of me. But you know, it 0:12:17.164 --> 0:12:21.284 was a really I think interesting moment where a lot 0:12:21.324 --> 0:12:24.604 of people's political consciousness were awakened, like especially people who 0:12:24.644 --> 0:12:28.044 hadn't lived through Watergate, right, who hadn't who hadn't kind 0:12:28.044 --> 0:12:32.164 of seen the start of this. So I'd love to 0:12:32.284 --> 0:12:34.564 just kind of talk through that as just like a 0:12:34.604 --> 0:12:38.004 big historical moment and what it meant for how the 0:12:38.084 --> 0:12:41.284 office went forward, because, as you point out, Clinton was 0:12:41.324 --> 0:12:44.604 the last one to renew the law that was then 0:12:45.484 --> 0:12:47.884 take you know, was then used to try to take him. 0:12:47.804 --> 0:12:52.484 Down immediately boomerang. Yeah, look, Ken Starr killed the Independent 0:12:52.524 --> 0:12:54.924 Council Law. I mean, the Independent Council Law was passed 0:12:54.924 --> 0:13:00.484 after Watergate, signed by Jimmy Carter, and it died at Sunset. 0:13:00.564 --> 0:13:03.004 Congress let it die in ninety nine, but it would 0:13:03.004 --> 0:13:04.804 come up every five or ten years for renewal, and 0:13:04.844 --> 0:13:09.124 basically every president didn't like it. Ronald Reagan's DJ concluded 0:13:09.124 --> 0:13:12.004 that it was unconstitutional, but he was like, politically, he 0:13:12.004 --> 0:13:13.604 felt he had no choice. He had to sign it. 0:13:13.724 --> 0:13:16.284 When it came up for the final reauthorization in ninety four, 0:13:16.724 --> 0:13:19.964 George H. W. Bush, the father who Clinton had just 0:13:20.004 --> 0:13:23.084 defeated in the ninety two election, counseled him like, as 0:13:23.084 --> 0:13:25.924 a fellow president, you're not gonna want to sign this thing. 0:13:25.924 --> 0:13:28.604 But Clinton also felt he had no choice signs it 0:13:28.644 --> 0:13:31.524 and then it becomes the bane of his existence. And 0:13:31.604 --> 0:13:35.004 you know, that is such a memorable moment. I mean, 0:13:35.044 --> 0:13:37.284 I was in law school. People may not realize how 0:13:37.364 --> 0:13:39.644 much on the razor's edge we were. I mean there 0:13:39.684 --> 0:13:41.684 was a moment when Bill Clinton calls a press conference 0:13:41.724 --> 0:13:44.244 and we didn't know is he resigning or is Al 0:13:44.324 --> 0:13:48.044 Gore going to be president by tonight? And you know, 0:13:48.084 --> 0:13:51.004 I talk about how some of the indelible lines I 0:13:51.004 --> 0:13:53.884 give the backstory. Right, the two probably most famous lines 0:13:53.964 --> 0:13:56.324 or infamous lines from that whole thing are, I did 0:13:56.324 --> 0:13:59.244 not have sexual relations with that woman, miss Lumis. That's 0:13:59.244 --> 0:14:01.644 my Clinton and the other one is it depends on 0:14:01.684 --> 0:14:04.924 what the meaning of is is. And I give the 0:14:04.964 --> 0:14:06.804 backstory on both of them. I won't give it all 0:14:06.804 --> 0:14:08.684 the way, but I'll just tell you that one of 0:14:08.724 --> 0:14:10.844 the people I intern was the prosecute so ken Star 0:14:10.884 --> 0:14:13.404 passed away a few years ago, but his number two 0:14:13.484 --> 0:14:15.724 was a guy named Saul Weisenberg, who asked the question 0:14:15.764 --> 0:14:17.804 that Bill Clinton answered, it depends on what the meaning 0:14:17.844 --> 0:14:20.524 of is is. I also talked to Bill Clinton's lawyers, 0:14:20.524 --> 0:14:22.764 Whore and the White House lawyers who were by his side. 0:14:22.924 --> 0:14:25.044 But I asked Weisenberg. I said, how did you feel 0:14:25.044 --> 0:14:28.324 when he gave you that answer? And Wisemberg said he 0:14:28.324 --> 0:14:30.124 was very honest. He goes, Look, I'll tell you the truth. 0:14:30.684 --> 0:14:33.444 That was a four hour timeframe that we had. That 0:14:33.564 --> 0:14:35.564 was about three hours in and up to that point 0:14:35.604 --> 0:14:38.084 Clinton was kicking our ass. We didn't get anything out 0:14:38.124 --> 0:14:40.444 of him. He looked in control, he goes, But when 0:14:40.484 --> 0:14:43.604 he gave that answer, he looked so smarty, and what 0:14:43.644 --> 0:14:46.204 he said was so ridiculous. He was a former DOJ lawyer. 0:14:46.244 --> 0:14:48.164 He said, if I was trying this case to a jury, 0:14:48.164 --> 0:14:50.044 I would have turned to them and been like, can 0:14:50.084 --> 0:14:52.164 you believe this guy? And of course that's you know, 0:14:52.324 --> 0:14:54.684 that's the moment that lives on from that. That's a 0:14:54.724 --> 0:14:56.364 precipitous moment in history right there. 0:14:56.644 --> 0:15:01.244 When did this all kind of become a partisan hellscape 0:15:01.564 --> 0:15:03.684 in your opinion, Elias? I mean, how much it was 0:15:05.124 --> 0:15:07.484 during the Clinton years or has it just been upping 0:15:07.484 --> 0:15:09.924 the ante one presidency at a time. 0:15:10.324 --> 0:15:13.724 Yeah, it's always been somewhat. I don't know if partisan 0:15:13.804 --> 0:15:15.284 in the early days is quite the right word, but 0:15:15.324 --> 0:15:17.924 it's always been a battle. I mean, everyone's always circled 0:15:17.924 --> 0:15:21.524 the wagons and geared up for survival Watergate. When you 0:15:21.564 --> 0:15:24.924 look back at it is shockingly non partisan, right like 0:15:25.324 --> 0:15:28.644 people within DJ stood up to him. I have scenes 0:15:28.684 --> 0:15:31.244 in there on the Sunday morning after the Saturday Night 0:15:31.284 --> 0:15:34.084 massacre where the team is wondering, have we all been. 0:15:34.044 --> 0:15:36.564 By the way, for our listeners who don't know, Saturday 0:15:36.644 --> 0:15:37.684 Night ostacer. 0:15:37.604 --> 0:15:40.244 That was when Nixon fired the special counsel, and then 0:15:40.284 --> 0:15:43.444 the Attorney General and Deputy Attorney General resigned rather than fire, 0:15:43.604 --> 0:15:46.164 So the three top officials were all gone. And I 0:15:46.204 --> 0:15:48.764 talked to the players. They they came in Sunday morning 0:15:48.764 --> 0:15:51.084 and they didn't know there was actually an erroneous report 0:15:51.084 --> 0:15:52.444 in the top New York Times that they had all 0:15:52.484 --> 0:15:55.124 been fired, but they hadn't, and Archibald Cox comes in 0:15:55.164 --> 0:15:57.204 and says to them, basically, you keep doing this work, 0:15:57.244 --> 0:15:59.604 don't give him what he wants. Two weeks later, there's 0:15:59.644 --> 0:16:02.084 a new special prosecutor and ends up, you know, ends 0:16:02.124 --> 0:16:05.804 up resulting in Nixon's resignation. I think it got really ugly, 0:16:06.604 --> 0:16:09.764 you know Clinton. I think Clinton ken starrs when people 0:16:09.844 --> 0:16:13.564 really took their sides and people really dug in. And 0:16:13.604 --> 0:16:16.284 we've seen that certainly with the Jack Smith Trump case, 0:16:16.364 --> 0:16:19.924 both sides, certainly with the Joe Biden Robert her classified 0:16:19.964 --> 0:16:23.484 documents case. I mean, I think everything since Clinton has 0:16:23.524 --> 0:16:27.364 been pretty politicized. Maybe not the Scooter Libby Pat Fitzgerald case. 0:16:27.404 --> 0:16:29.804 That one was George Bush was the president was like 0:16:30.164 --> 0:16:33.644 he was fairly supportive of that investigation happening, but everything 0:16:33.684 --> 0:16:35.644 else has become just partisan warfare since then. 0:16:36.244 --> 0:16:39.124 That's interesting that you would put it that in that 0:16:39.204 --> 0:16:41.844 modern era, because you know, in the book, when you 0:16:41.924 --> 0:16:44.444 kind of give our Whiskey scandal that we started the 0:16:44.444 --> 0:16:47.524 show with, you say that that was really the playbook 0:16:47.564 --> 0:16:50.324 that's kind of still being used to this day, right 0:16:50.404 --> 0:16:54.724 that we've had the bones of this for centuries. 0:16:54.924 --> 0:16:57.964 Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean the moves that were made, 0:16:58.044 --> 0:17:00.084 like why does Grant appoint a special counsel because he 0:17:00.084 --> 0:17:02.924 feels political pressure because his opponent says, I found this 0:17:03.044 --> 0:17:05.004 scandal and Greg goes, well, well, hold on, we're going 0:17:05.084 --> 0:17:06.364 to take care of it. We're going to appoint an 0:17:06.364 --> 0:17:10.124 independent guy. That guy goes out, he starts making headway. 0:17:10.644 --> 0:17:13.484 When he gets too close, Grant fires. Grant actually tries 0:17:13.524 --> 0:17:16.604 to do a move that Nixon did a century later. 0:17:16.684 --> 0:17:20.244 Grant tries to have a military tributal takeover. Nixon tried 0:17:20.244 --> 0:17:22.444 to have the CIA takeover, but both of them failed, 0:17:22.924 --> 0:17:25.524 and ultimately it becomes finger pointing both ways, and the 0:17:25.564 --> 0:17:28.484 media says he's you know, he's covering up, and Grant says, 0:17:28.484 --> 0:17:29.724 the media is. I mean, he might as well have 0:17:29.764 --> 0:17:31.844 called it fake news. He didn't use that phrase, but 0:17:31.924 --> 0:17:35.484 he all but says that in eighteen seventies speak. So 0:17:36.764 --> 0:17:39.964 I think it's important to understand, you know, people who've 0:17:40.044 --> 0:17:43.724 only been really following this since Muller think it's brand new. 0:17:44.644 --> 0:17:47.484 What's happening now Trump two point zero is brand new. 0:17:47.804 --> 0:17:51.324 But really from Grant through the Jack Smith case, there's 0:17:51.364 --> 0:17:53.804 a lot of connective tissue. Yeah. 0:17:53.044 --> 0:17:56.444 I always try to emphasize when people are understanding the 0:17:56.484 --> 0:18:00.244 current very polarized moment in politics that like, you know, 0:18:01.924 --> 0:18:05.244 maybe my generation of political reporters, or maybe maybe one 0:18:05.284 --> 0:18:08.844 generation older than me, probably right, but not two generations 0:18:09.404 --> 0:18:12.204 we have grew up in like the lore of post 0:18:12.244 --> 0:18:15.844 World War two elections, right, Yeah, the fifties, the sixties, 0:18:16.324 --> 0:18:19.164 the seventies, and if you look historically, this is a 0:18:19.204 --> 0:18:23.164 time of a very low polarization relative to the baseline, 0:18:23.284 --> 0:18:26.164 and a time when the fifties in particular, you know, 0:18:26.324 --> 0:18:28.764 the United States is doing very well. We had a 0:18:28.764 --> 0:18:30.764 common enemy, we defeated in World War Two. You have 0:18:30.804 --> 0:18:34.004 this baby boom, this prosperity boom. Right, we have the 0:18:34.044 --> 0:18:38.364 space race. Right, things are looking up. That's so great 0:18:38.404 --> 0:18:41.244 if you're a minority in the nineteen fifties or a 0:18:41.244 --> 0:18:43.644 woman or day or whatever else. Right, But like, but 0:18:43.804 --> 0:18:46.444 you know, people, society had less conflic than it does now. 0:18:46.484 --> 0:18:47.884 And you go before that to the turn of the 0:18:47.884 --> 0:18:52.404 previous century, we had a civil war, Right, partisanship is 0:18:52.484 --> 0:18:55.564 kind of the norm. But Ellie, but you do think that, like, 0:18:56.404 --> 0:19:02.764 it's not just MSNBC exaggeration when people say what Trump 0:19:02.844 --> 0:19:07.204 is doing is is much worse. Half an order of 0:19:07.244 --> 0:19:09.844 magnitude worse or an order magnitude worse than we've seen before. 0:19:10.204 --> 0:19:13.404 I often disagree with MSNBC, but I do think it's 0:19:13.444 --> 0:19:16.364 accurate to say that about what's happening right now this part, 0:19:16.404 --> 0:19:20.604 because what's different is every president up until now, and 0:19:20.644 --> 0:19:23.484 I include Trump won in that every president up until 0:19:23.484 --> 0:19:26.324 now has at least understood there does need to be 0:19:26.404 --> 0:19:30.844 some sort of outside prosecutorial mechanism, whether they're investigating the 0:19:30.964 --> 0:19:33.604 president or someone around him, or maybe they're kind of quiet. 0:19:33.604 --> 0:19:37.004 There wasn't much of this during the Bush or Obama eras, 0:19:37.804 --> 0:19:40.364 but that I do need to respect this, I do 0:19:40.444 --> 0:19:42.364 need to let it go. Look, every president or most 0:19:42.404 --> 0:19:44.884 presidents who've been involved in these cases have tried to 0:19:44.964 --> 0:19:47.924 undermine them or obstruct them to some degree. But Trump 0:19:47.924 --> 0:19:49.364 has just come in now and said, oh, we're not 0:19:49.404 --> 0:19:52.124 even going down that road any There will be no 0:19:52.284 --> 0:19:56.204 inward looking investigation at me, Donald Trump or anyone around me. 0:19:56.324 --> 0:19:58.684 And more to the point, and this gets to the title, 0:19:59.204 --> 0:20:02.044 anyone who looked at me in the past is now 0:20:02.124 --> 0:20:05.284 getting investigated. It's when you come at the king and 0:20:05.324 --> 0:20:08.004 also Nate to your other point, you know, I spoke 0:20:08.044 --> 0:20:10.564 to Carl Bernstein for this book, who I know through CNN. 0:20:10.604 --> 0:20:13.324 Of course, Carl was the legendary Washington Post reporter who 0:20:13.764 --> 0:20:16.684 helped break the whole Watergate story. And I said, how 0:20:16.724 --> 0:20:19.444 did this take so long to play out? Like Nixon 0:20:19.484 --> 0:20:23.564 survived ten months after that Saturday night massacre during the 0:20:23.604 --> 0:20:26.844 seventy two election. People may not realize this Watergate break 0:20:26.884 --> 0:20:29.844 in happened before that. And Carl had already linked a 0:20:30.004 --> 0:20:33.644 check from the burglars to a Nixon campaign, and Nixon 0:20:33.724 --> 0:20:36.484 won wins, you know, fift forty nine states and five 0:20:36.564 --> 0:20:39.924 hundred something electoral votes in seventy two. And I said 0:20:39.924 --> 0:20:42.084 to Carl, like, how could this be? And he sort 0:20:42.084 --> 0:20:44.204 of was, He's great, but he was sort of like, okay, 0:20:44.204 --> 0:20:46.444 young man, let me explain something detail. But he basically 0:20:46.484 --> 0:20:50.004 said things were different then. He said, by and large, 0:20:50.044 --> 0:20:53.404 if the president denied something, you didn't automatically take him 0:20:53.444 --> 0:20:55.684 at his word. But the public was much more likely 0:20:55.724 --> 0:20:58.084 to give him the benefit of the doubt, as was Congress. 0:20:58.324 --> 0:21:00.364 And he said things just move slower back then, like 0:21:00.444 --> 0:21:02.724 it wasn't this twenty four hour boom boom news culture, 0:21:02.764 --> 0:21:05.084 social media, so you know, but when I sat down, 0:21:05.284 --> 0:21:06.804 the one point in the book where I sort of 0:21:06.804 --> 0:21:10.044 cop out and just have a timeline is because it's 0:21:10.084 --> 0:21:12.804 so confusing, and I think I just said, boom boom, 0:21:12.804 --> 0:21:15.804 this happened, This happened, this happened, and then we do analysis, 0:21:15.884 --> 0:21:17.804 but like you have to have that because I cannot 0:21:17.804 --> 0:21:19.444 believe how long it took for that to play on. 0:21:19.444 --> 0:21:21.404 I can't believe how long he survived politically. 0:21:21.924 --> 0:21:26.764 Yeah, so you know, bridging, bridging those kind of two 0:21:26.844 --> 0:21:30.084 things together kind of from the Watergate era two nights 0:21:30.164 --> 0:21:34.804 question just now, and how different right Trump two point 0:21:34.884 --> 0:21:37.124 zero is because you write in the book that he, 0:21:37.444 --> 0:21:40.244 you know, Trump one point oh, the original hadn't quote 0:21:40.284 --> 0:21:43.604 fully grasped the lovers of executive pet power, yeah, unquote, 0:21:43.964 --> 0:21:46.084 and now he definitely has. Right the second time around, 0:21:46.164 --> 0:21:47.964 he knows you. 0:21:47.964 --> 0:21:50.524 Just flip it off, Okay, exactly. 0:21:50.404 --> 0:21:53.804 That's what you do to that. And I was actually 0:21:53.884 --> 0:21:57.764 curious under kind of the current regime, right, what has 0:21:57.804 --> 0:22:01.324 happened right now? And kind of the really weird definition 0:22:01.444 --> 0:22:05.484 of presidential immunity right kind of all of that. Do 0:22:05.564 --> 0:22:08.324 we think that all of the cases that you write 0:22:08.324 --> 0:22:10.964 about in the book, including Gate, could they happen today? 0:22:11.164 --> 0:22:11.324 Right? 0:22:11.684 --> 0:22:14.244 Like if something like that happened, if we had a 0:22:14.284 --> 0:22:16.244 Watergate level scandal right now. 0:22:16.364 --> 0:22:19.564 The realistic answer is today, you know, September of twenty 0:22:19.604 --> 0:22:22.524 twenty five. No, because Donald Trump's president and Pambondi's ag 0:22:23.164 --> 0:22:25.284 And I mean, if if you had any question about 0:22:25.284 --> 0:22:26.564 that to me, there was a sort of moment of 0:22:26.644 --> 0:22:29.284 truth with Pambondy a few months ago when the signal 0:22:29.324 --> 0:22:32.084 scandal broke out, right, Mike Waltz and others were using 0:22:32.164 --> 0:22:35.324 this non secure app and discussing military plans. And I 0:22:35.364 --> 0:22:37.204 point out in the book every time we've had any 0:22:37.244 --> 0:22:40.724 sort of classified documents issue before, it's been at least 0:22:40.764 --> 0:22:44.444 an investigation Hillary Clinton's email, Joe Biden, or an investigation 0:22:44.524 --> 0:22:47.124 and an indictment. Donald Trump was indicted for that. And 0:22:47.164 --> 0:22:51.684 Pam Bondi comes out three days after no investigation and says, no, 0:22:51.964 --> 0:22:53.924 nothing to see here. We're not investigating and you all 0:22:53.924 --> 0:22:56.404 should be focused on the success of the military strike 0:22:56.684 --> 0:22:58.644 more than anything else. That was it. What would have 0:22:58.644 --> 0:23:01.324 happened in almost any prior administration, as DJ would have 0:23:01.524 --> 0:23:04.364 convened an investigation. We're taking this very seriously, and six 0:23:04.404 --> 0:23:06.644 months later, maybe they would have issued some report, maybe 0:23:06.644 --> 0:23:08.924 they would have found someone needed to be indicted, But 0:23:09.884 --> 0:23:12.644 here Pambondi was just slammed the door before it could 0:23:12.644 --> 0:23:15.364 even start. Now, I don't think it has to be 0:23:15.484 --> 0:23:18.164 this way forever. And essentially the pitch I make in 0:23:18.204 --> 0:23:22.764 the book is, whenever president comes next forty eight, whoever 0:23:22.764 --> 0:23:26.284 that is, you, sir or ma'am, are going to find 0:23:26.284 --> 0:23:28.644 that a lot of guardrails have been kicked down, and 0:23:28.684 --> 0:23:30.884 it's gonna be mighty tempting for you to leave them down, 0:23:30.924 --> 0:23:34.404 because who wants ethics, who wants restrictions on private profits? 0:23:34.724 --> 0:23:38.564 Who wants special counsel, who wants inspectors general? But this 0:23:38.724 --> 0:23:41.164 one is too important And if we just let this 0:23:41.204 --> 0:23:44.004 one stay dead, then we're gonna have big problems down 0:23:44.044 --> 0:23:48.124 the line. 0:23:48.764 --> 0:23:50.164 And we'll be back right after this. 0:24:06.084 --> 0:24:07.324 How bad was Watergate? 0:24:07.444 --> 0:24:07.644 Right? 0:24:07.724 --> 0:24:11.044 Because you hear about like a quarterback or baseball play, 0:24:11.124 --> 0:24:14.804 you know, Reggie Jackson hit whatever forty seven home runs 0:24:14.804 --> 0:24:16.044 in nineteen sixty eight or whatever? 0:24:16.204 --> 0:24:17.604 Are we doing like era inflation? 0:24:18.804 --> 0:24:21.284 Yeah, I mean, like if wanting it happened today. 0:24:22.284 --> 0:24:24.604 Would it be It's a good yeah, that's a good question. 0:24:24.644 --> 0:24:27.324 I mean, let's think about it. So let's let's use 0:24:27.324 --> 0:24:28.684 a real life example who do you want to be 0:24:28.724 --> 0:24:31.644 the bad guys? Democrats are Republicans. Let's make democrats, let's 0:24:31.644 --> 0:24:34.084 say democrats. Let's flip it. Let's flip it. If it 0:24:34.164 --> 0:24:36.604 turned out that a group of burglars had broken into 0:24:36.604 --> 0:24:39.004 the RNC or hacked into an R and C server 0:24:39.644 --> 0:24:42.684 and downloaded a bunch of stuff, and then that was 0:24:42.764 --> 0:24:46.724 tied back to let's say Joe Biden, and it turned 0:24:46.764 --> 0:24:48.884 out Biden knew about it and was in on a 0:24:48.964 --> 0:24:51.844 cover up, that'd be I think that'd be pretty bad, head, 0:24:52.044 --> 0:24:54.804 I mean, right, But then again, I mean if you 0:24:54.844 --> 0:24:56.364 look at some of this stuff Trump, I mean, January 0:24:56.404 --> 0:24:58.884 sixth is hard to compare to anything, you know, the 0:24:58.884 --> 0:25:01.924 possession of classified documents, but I think it's pretty bad. 0:25:01.964 --> 0:25:04.124 Like I don't you know, I look back at Watergate 0:25:04.164 --> 0:25:06.644 and see it as this had to happen. I look 0:25:06.724 --> 0:25:09.564 back at ken Starr and think that was an out 0:25:09.604 --> 0:25:12.404 of control prosecutor, and I think that's I'm certainly not 0:25:12.444 --> 0:25:15.564 alone with that many many Republicans. I mean Clinton left 0:25:15.564 --> 0:25:18.524 office in one Nate, this is up your alley with 0:25:18.564 --> 0:25:22.004 a sixty six percent gallop approval rating, in large part 0:25:22.044 --> 0:25:24.804 because of backlash over the ridiculous impeachment. And by the 0:25:24.804 --> 0:25:27.804 way I talked to in the book, the prosecutor Bob Ray, 0:25:27.924 --> 0:25:31.084 who replaced Ken Starr, comes in at the end and 0:25:31.204 --> 0:25:34.644 he has the unfortunate the impeachment's already over, the failed impeachment. 0:25:34.924 --> 0:25:38.284 He's got to decide, will you indict Bill Clinton? And 0:25:38.324 --> 0:25:40.244 I said to him, Bob, you gotta be kidding me. 0:25:40.284 --> 0:25:42.444 There's no way you're gonna indict in two thousand and 0:25:42.444 --> 0:25:46.524 one Bill Clinton, for you'll never get a single vote 0:25:46.524 --> 0:25:49.364 to convict him. And Bob basically ninety nine percent of 0:25:49.364 --> 0:25:51.244 the way, And the book says, we had all the 0:25:51.244 --> 0:25:53.564 pieces in place. If he didn't reach an agreement with us, 0:25:53.564 --> 0:25:55.004 we would do what we had to do. Now, he 0:25:55.084 --> 0:25:57.604 ended up paying a fine twenty five thousand dollars and 0:25:57.684 --> 0:26:00.924 making a sort of Clintonian statement about misleading the American 0:26:00.964 --> 0:26:04.204 public and giving up his bar license. But I mean, 0:26:04.284 --> 0:26:07.404 I'm shocked by that. But Bob said, I'm glad that 0:26:07.524 --> 0:26:09.164 I didn't it didn't come to that. I'm glad he 0:26:09.204 --> 0:26:11.364 took a deal. And Bob said, by the way, if 0:26:11.404 --> 0:26:13.604 we had indicted him, we could have had a situation 0:26:13.644 --> 0:26:16.484 where we had a president sitting in the dock of 0:26:16.484 --> 0:26:19.444 a criminal courtroom eight months later, nine months later when 0:26:19.484 --> 0:26:21.524 nine to eleven happens, and that would have been Can 0:26:21.564 --> 0:26:23.604 you imagine how horrible that would have been. So, you know, 0:26:23.924 --> 0:26:25.524 it's crazy to me to think that he might have 0:26:25.604 --> 0:26:27.604 indicted Clinton, But if Clinton had said I'm not giving 0:26:27.644 --> 0:26:30.444 an inch, it's pretty clear that he would have been indicted. 0:26:30.484 --> 0:26:32.284 He would have been equitted, but he would have been indicted. 0:26:33.324 --> 0:26:36.364 Yeah, it's it's really interesting to me when you know, 0:26:36.404 --> 0:26:38.644 when reading this book, and obviously there were some cases 0:26:38.684 --> 0:26:41.964 that I knew and others that I hadn't heard of before. 0:26:42.724 --> 0:26:44.684 It's no listen, nobody knows all these. 0:26:45.764 --> 0:26:52.724 But but you know, the this wide spectrum of seriousness 0:26:52.924 --> 0:26:54.444 is actually quite eye opening. 0:26:54.764 --> 0:26:54.924 Right. 0:26:54.964 --> 0:26:57.364 You have you have things that you're like, okay, like 0:26:57.444 --> 0:27:00.124 I understand, and then you have things that just seem petty, 0:27:00.484 --> 0:27:04.124 and you're like, why are we investigating this? And then 0:27:04.164 --> 0:27:05.844 you realize, and you point this out in the book, 0:27:05.924 --> 0:27:08.404 that the blame isn't just with the special prosecutor. You know, 0:27:08.764 --> 0:27:12.124 it's with people like Reno who say, yes, you know, 0:27:12.324 --> 0:27:13.924 we should we should do this. 0:27:14.164 --> 0:27:15.684 Expand into Monica lays. 0:27:15.444 --> 0:27:20.564 Sad, Yeah, into Lewinsky and they're just some some the 0:27:20.604 --> 0:27:23.604 scale of it seems totally off, and I feel like 0:27:23.644 --> 0:27:25.764 maybe we wouldn't be where we are today if it 0:27:25.804 --> 0:27:29.164 had been more uniformally applied. 0:27:29.324 --> 0:27:31.484 Well, I think it needs to be applied judicially. I 0:27:31.524 --> 0:27:34.404 mean some of these cases where special councils were appointed 0:27:34.444 --> 0:27:37.044 are preposterous. The first, this is one of my favorite facts, 0:27:37.244 --> 0:27:39.964 the first ever independent council. So Watergate happens, we get 0:27:39.964 --> 0:27:42.684 this new law. In seventy eight, the first ever special 0:27:42.724 --> 0:27:46.484 council was appointed to our independent council was appointed to 0:27:46.524 --> 0:27:52.124 investigate alleged cocaine use by a White House, a White 0:27:52.164 --> 0:27:54.964 House advisor at Studio fifty four in Manhattan. I mean, 0:27:55.004 --> 0:27:59.004 what could be more disco era than that? And you know, 0:27:59.084 --> 0:28:00.964 the main guy they talked to was some Johnny C, 0:28:01.244 --> 0:28:03.444 some drug guy at Studio fifty four who was like, 0:28:03.484 --> 0:28:05.164 I think I might have given some guy a two. 0:28:05.564 --> 0:28:07.364 And of course that didn't ever get charged, you know 0:28:07.364 --> 0:28:08.684 they I mean a lot of times the right move 0:28:08.764 --> 0:28:13.124 is you don't charge. But I think he was the 0:28:13.164 --> 0:28:17.164 chief of staff. What's his name, Hamilton Jorden. It spelled 0:28:17.244 --> 0:28:19.724 Jordan j O r Dam, but it's pronounced Jorden as 0:28:19.724 --> 0:28:22.124 I learned during my audiobook, so it was the chief 0:28:22.164 --> 0:28:24.324 of staff to the White House. In fact, the second 0:28:24.564 --> 0:28:27.404 investigation was also a guy using coke. I mean, it 0:28:27.404 --> 0:28:30.244 couldn't be more seventies. But I think I think the 0:28:30.284 --> 0:28:33.084 bar has been raised, and I think people on both 0:28:33.084 --> 0:28:36.684 sides politicians generally now understand we're not going to appoint 0:28:36.724 --> 0:28:40.404 special counsel on pitdling matters. Although you could look at 0:28:40.444 --> 0:28:43.404 Hunter Biden, that prosecutor, and I talked to Hunter's team, 0:28:44.044 --> 0:28:47.924 Abby Lowell, his lawyer, who ferociously objected to this. It 0:28:47.964 --> 0:28:51.164 was a gun and tax case on an Indi private individual. 0:28:51.684 --> 0:28:53.764 And I think there's a lot of criticism to be 0:28:53.804 --> 0:28:57.444 had of Merrick Garland for agreeing to turn that prosecutor, 0:28:57.564 --> 0:29:00.844 David Wise, from a regular DOJ prosecutor. Then he decides 0:29:00.844 --> 0:29:02.844 he wants to be special counsel, and Garland says sure, 0:29:02.884 --> 0:29:04.644 but I think that was a mistake, and I think 0:29:04.924 --> 0:29:06.324 I think you do have to look at what's the 0:29:06.364 --> 0:29:07.804 seriousness of the charges here. 0:29:08.044 --> 0:29:11.924 So do you do you think Democrats came and missed 0:29:12.804 --> 0:29:15.364 with Trump? Do they not go hard enough on the 0:29:15.364 --> 0:29:16.044 best cases? 0:29:16.804 --> 0:29:19.484 So the short answers yes, And the person who I 0:29:19.564 --> 0:29:21.604 laid most flame at in the book is Merrick Garland 0:29:21.684 --> 0:29:25.004 because Jackson. The first sentence of the Jack Smith chapter 0:29:25.204 --> 0:29:28.444 is jack Smith never had a chance because by the 0:29:28.524 --> 0:29:31.884 time Merrick Garland wastes two years and appoints Jack Smith's 0:29:31.884 --> 0:29:35.644 special counsel in November of twenty twenty two, almost two years. 0:29:36.044 --> 0:29:38.204 I wrote in my prior book, which came out in 0:29:38.284 --> 0:29:41.644 mid twenty twenty two, it's already too late. I quoted 0:29:41.684 --> 0:29:43.564 the movie Searching for Bobby Fisher, which I don't know 0:29:43.564 --> 0:29:45.844 if you guys seen a great movie, right, Chess Prodigy movie, yep, 0:29:45.884 --> 0:29:48.084 And the kid says to his opponent, you've already lost. 0:29:48.124 --> 0:29:50.324 You just don't know it yet. And it turned out 0:29:50.324 --> 0:29:52.964 that was correct. There was never any way, if you 0:29:53.044 --> 0:29:56.484 know how long federal prosecutions take, if you knew, which 0:29:56.564 --> 0:29:58.044 we did, because I wrote about in my last book, 0:29:58.044 --> 0:29:59.644 they were going to have to deal with the immunity issue. 0:29:59.684 --> 0:30:01.484 It was going to go to the Supreme Court. There 0:30:01.524 --> 0:30:03.404 was never any way jack Smith was going to get 0:30:03.404 --> 0:30:07.924 his case done tried before the twenty twenty four election. Now, 0:30:07.924 --> 0:30:10.484 if Trump had lost, okay, you know, you try him later. 0:30:10.764 --> 0:30:12.324 But you always knew there was at least a fifty 0:30:12.324 --> 0:30:15.324 to fifty chance Trump would win, So they took that 0:30:15.444 --> 0:30:17.164 risk and they lost. But I think there's there's a 0:30:17.164 --> 0:30:20.084 lot of discussion in here about why Merrick Garland, you 0:30:20.124 --> 0:30:23.564 know the fact that Merrick Garland took too long, and look, 0:30:23.604 --> 0:30:28.324 does that justify retribution? Absolutely not. But Trump has now 0:30:28.364 --> 0:30:30.724 you know, they shot and missed, and Trump's now coming 0:30:30.764 --> 0:30:32.724 back at them. 0:30:32.284 --> 0:30:34.244 And they're not the first ones. So one of the 0:30:34.244 --> 0:30:37.124 things that you know, I was noting as I went 0:30:37.324 --> 0:30:39.204 through the book was, you know, a lot of the 0:30:39.204 --> 0:30:42.724 people who came at the King missed, right, Yeah, well 0:30:42.884 --> 0:30:43.684 missed the mark. 0:30:43.644 --> 0:30:46.484 Yes, and some decided not to take the shot. I mean, 0:30:46.684 --> 0:30:49.004 Robert her with Joe Biden is a good example. You know, 0:30:49.084 --> 0:30:52.404 everyone remembers that Robert Herr said, oh, Biden's an elderly 0:30:52.404 --> 0:30:54.284 man with a faulty memory, blah blah blah. That was 0:30:54.324 --> 0:30:56.684 the big But but what everyone kind of missed is 0:30:56.724 --> 0:31:00.444 that Robert Hurr found that Joe Biden knew he had 0:31:00.444 --> 0:31:03.964 classified documents, like Joe Biden denied that for years. Anything 0:31:03.964 --> 0:31:06.724 I had was in Adverton accidental, accidental. But there's a 0:31:06.764 --> 0:31:10.364 tape we find out of Joe Biden's say to his ghostwriter, 0:31:11.364 --> 0:31:13.764 I just found all the classified stuff downstairs, meaning in 0:31:13.804 --> 0:31:16.244 his private office. So like I sort of said, look, 0:31:16.524 --> 0:31:20.004 Robert Herr could have I think he did the right 0:31:20.044 --> 0:31:22.964 thing by passing on this, but he could have written 0:31:23.004 --> 0:31:25.844 a report that said, while I cannot indict the sitting 0:31:25.884 --> 0:31:28.404 president under long standing DOJ policy, to talk about that 0:31:28.444 --> 0:31:30.644 in the book, I do find that the evidence would 0:31:30.644 --> 0:31:33.444 have been sufficient to uphold a criminal charge. There is 0:31:33.484 --> 0:31:39.604 a criminal charge for knowingly mishandling classified documents. And really 0:31:39.964 --> 0:31:44.804 that statement by Robert Herr is offered to explain his 0:31:44.924 --> 0:31:47.364 calculation on the state of mind, the intent. He says, well, 0:31:47.564 --> 0:31:49.244 it would have been hard to, you know, show a 0:31:49.324 --> 0:31:52.164 jury that he was fully aware, fully remembered. He would 0:31:52.204 --> 0:31:54.084 have been sympathetic to a jury. I mean, but look, 0:31:54.124 --> 0:31:56.164 I talked to Bob Bauer, who's Biden's lawyer, who was 0:31:56.164 --> 0:31:58.684 fiercely critical of her. Said he went too far, said 0:31:58.684 --> 0:32:00.364 he put politically, you know, stuff he shouldn't have put 0:32:00.404 --> 0:32:02.404 in his report. So I kind of leave some of 0:32:02.444 --> 0:32:04.004 this to the reader, you know, I mean, I don't. 0:32:04.604 --> 0:32:06.724 I will let people withdraw their own conclusion, some of them. 0:32:06.764 --> 0:32:09.444 I think there's a definitive conclusion to be drawn. But O, 0:32:09.484 --> 0:32:11.644 there's I think, you know, it depends how you see it. 0:32:11.684 --> 0:32:13.804 So sometimes you know, Look, I make a point of 0:32:13.884 --> 0:32:15.524 saying this in the book, and I say this as 0:32:15.564 --> 0:32:17.324 someone who was a prosecutor for a long time. You 0:32:17.324 --> 0:32:20.404 can't just judge prosecutors. I'm like, what's their stats? Like, 0:32:20.444 --> 0:32:22.564 how man? How many people did you ring up here? 0:32:22.764 --> 0:32:24.964 Because sometimes the right move the better move, and the 0:32:25.004 --> 0:32:28.124 right move is to exercise your discretion against the charge. 0:32:28.644 --> 0:32:30.884 And I think reasonable minds can differ on the Biden case, 0:32:30.924 --> 0:32:33.524 but I think it's hard to say her was wrong. 0:32:34.324 --> 0:32:38.044 What do prosecutors not understand about politics? 0:32:40.084 --> 0:32:43.444 That's a great question question I want to say everything. 0:32:43.644 --> 0:32:46.084 I mean, look, if you would talk to me six 0:32:46.164 --> 0:32:48.444 years ago. Let's say I've been doing media stuff for 0:32:48.444 --> 0:32:51.124 seven years now. In early in my media cra I 0:32:51.164 --> 0:32:52.964 was fresh out of fourteen years of being a prosecutor. 0:32:53.004 --> 0:32:55.364 And I have this very like purest notion of prosecutors. 0:32:55.364 --> 0:32:58.604 Like what we do, especially at DJ is pure. It 0:32:58.684 --> 0:33:02.564 is uninfected by politics. It is separate, apart, and probably 0:33:02.604 --> 0:33:08.204 above from politics. The reality, however, is prosecution is part 0:33:08.284 --> 0:33:11.444 of our It exists within our political system. I mean 0:33:11.564 --> 0:33:14.524 why do we have DJ and an attorney general and 0:33:14.564 --> 0:33:17.244 an executive branch. It's from the Constitution, where all we 0:33:17.284 --> 0:33:19.564 all spring from the same document. And I think it's 0:33:19.964 --> 0:33:23.684 a bit naive to say that like prosecutors are just 0:33:23.724 --> 0:33:27.404 you know, where are white knights and never aware of policy. 0:33:27.444 --> 0:33:29.244 I mean, look, this is part of the complexity of 0:33:29.324 --> 0:33:32.484 Jack Smith. Like did he do his job in a straightforward, 0:33:32.524 --> 0:33:35.764 aggressive way, yes, but there's no question he was rushing 0:33:35.804 --> 0:33:38.884 like mad to get Trump tried before the twenty four election. 0:33:39.004 --> 0:33:43.924 That's an uncomfortable intersection of politics and prosecution and people 0:33:43.964 --> 0:33:46.764 who you know, I point, people sort of defended Jack 0:33:46.764 --> 0:33:49.444 Smith reflexively. I think, because like there was a thing 0:33:49.484 --> 0:33:51.444 for a while, anyone who's going after Trump is good 0:33:51.444 --> 0:33:54.644 by me. I don't buy into that. But Jack Smith 0:33:54.844 --> 0:33:59.484 initially demanded a trial date for Trump five months after 0:33:59.484 --> 0:34:02.924 the indictment on a case with thirteen million pages of discovery. 0:34:03.204 --> 0:34:06.164 That is impossible and unheard of. I actually looked up 0:34:06.204 --> 0:34:08.724 the data. The average case in that court, in DC 0:34:08.884 --> 0:34:11.324 Federal Court, and I'm just talking drug and gun rips 0:34:11.324 --> 0:34:14.444 mostly took twenty eight months. The defendant got twenty eight 0:34:14.444 --> 0:34:17.124 months to prep that two years and change, and Jack 0:34:17.124 --> 0:34:19.404 Smith says, here, we have like the most complex, most 0:34:19.444 --> 0:34:21.644 important case in US history, and he needs to go 0:34:21.684 --> 0:34:23.404 to trial in five months. And I talked to Trump's 0:34:23.484 --> 0:34:28.244 legal team and they said, correctly, like, there's no physical 0:34:28.324 --> 0:34:30.724 way we could have gone through the evidence in that time. 0:34:30.884 --> 0:34:32.444 And the only reason he wasn't able to do it 0:34:32.524 --> 0:34:35.084 was because the immunity decision came in and everything I'll 0:34:35.084 --> 0:34:37.364 put on hold, and then Trump won. So look, I 0:34:38.524 --> 0:34:41.004 understand Jack Smith, I think has the closest to my 0:34:41.484 --> 0:34:45.324 prosecutorial background of like cea target attack target. But I 0:34:45.364 --> 0:34:47.644 also think you can't tell me that Jack Smith was 0:34:47.764 --> 0:34:50.564 unaware of the looming election and trying to get his 0:34:50.604 --> 0:34:53.644 case tried before the election. There's no rational observer who 0:34:53.644 --> 0:34:55.284 could say that he had no idea and didn't care. 0:34:55.364 --> 0:34:56.084 Of course he cared. 0:34:56.444 --> 0:34:59.044 Yeah, so we have a lot of, you know, important 0:34:59.084 --> 0:35:02.364 questions about what should happen, you know, going forward. But 0:35:02.444 --> 0:35:04.364 I do have to say that I did one piece 0:35:04.404 --> 0:35:08.044 of outside research that I was inspired to do based 0:35:08.044 --> 0:35:11.804 on your book, and you included a detail about Patrick Fitzgerald, 0:35:12.204 --> 0:35:14.684 who was the special counsel who was put in charge 0:35:14.724 --> 0:35:18.324 of investigating the Bush administration for leaking the identity of 0:35:18.444 --> 0:35:21.964 a CIA agent. But that's not what I took away 0:35:22.004 --> 0:35:24.484 from that chapter. What I took away was that he 0:35:25.044 --> 0:35:29.684 was one of people's fifty sexiest men Alive of two 0:35:29.764 --> 0:35:30.364 thousand and five. 0:35:30.444 --> 0:35:33.204 Yes, sexy, and he wasn't, but he was on the list. 0:35:33.324 --> 0:35:37.124 No, Matthew McConaughey that year was the sexiest man alive. Yes, 0:35:37.324 --> 0:35:39.484 just edged him out. And I was like, what the fuck? Like, 0:35:39.564 --> 0:35:42.164 who is this guy? So I looked him up and 0:35:42.284 --> 0:35:44.124 my answer is what the fuck? 0:35:44.164 --> 0:35:47.844 Okay, So my editor, my editor, Maria, one of my 0:35:48.044 --> 0:35:50.364 fact checkers and editors, who was a woman of about 0:35:50.404 --> 0:35:54.964 your age, dropped and note in the manuscript saying, holy shit, 0:35:55.044 --> 0:35:59.284 did you just disappoint me? Because because Pat Fitzger, she 0:35:59.324 --> 0:36:02.724 did the same thing as you. She googled him. Now, child, 0:36:03.084 --> 0:36:05.644 he's a good looking guy, right, Like he's above that average. 0:36:06.324 --> 0:36:09.684 He's maybe above average, I don't know, but fifty sexes 0:36:09.804 --> 0:36:12.404 met alive? Like what was he doing as a special 0:36:12.484 --> 0:36:14.484 prosecutor that made him? 0:36:15.004 --> 0:36:15.084 Like? 0:36:15.564 --> 0:36:17.164 What what a funny moment in history? 0:36:17.284 --> 0:36:23.164 Number one? Number one? That is, you know, objectively, he's 0:36:23.204 --> 0:36:26.964 the only special counsel ever named sexiest anything. I've never seen. 0:36:27.244 --> 0:36:28.964 You know, the guy from the Whiskey Rain was not 0:36:29.044 --> 0:36:32.604 named sexiest anything by the New York Herald number two. 0:36:34.404 --> 0:36:37.124 I think it's actually a good reminder of like I remember, 0:36:37.164 --> 0:36:39.644 because I had just started at DJ. I started an 0:36:39.844 --> 0:36:42.524 four and this investigation went crazy in five six oh 0:36:42.564 --> 0:36:44.804 s and Fitzgerald had come out of the office I 0:36:44.844 --> 0:36:46.884 had started in. I don't know him, I've never met him. 0:36:46.884 --> 0:36:49.044 He didn't talk to me because he's sort of retired. 0:36:49.084 --> 0:36:50.524 He lives like in I don't want to say where, 0:36:50.564 --> 0:36:52.644 but he lives a quiet life out of the law now. 0:36:53.164 --> 0:36:56.244 And he very politely declined. But everyone at the office 0:36:56.284 --> 0:37:00.524 I worked at worshiped this guy. Loved him. He's hilarious, 0:37:00.564 --> 0:37:03.564 he's brilliant, and I think just something he was the guy. 0:37:03.684 --> 0:37:07.204 He was the Jack Smith, the Robert Muller of two 0:37:07.284 --> 0:37:09.444 thousand and five six, and you know, like that what 0:37:09.644 --> 0:37:13.364 kind of iconography or whatever? You know, I talk about 0:37:13.364 --> 0:37:15.844 that with Muller, right, remember all the Muller action figures 0:37:15.884 --> 0:37:18.124 and memes and He's gonna get you and all this. 0:37:18.484 --> 0:37:20.844 You know, Muller's team made a really interesting points. I 0:37:21.364 --> 0:37:23.644 talked to a couple of the prosecutors. They said, people 0:37:23.684 --> 0:37:26.524 who were spreading that stuff Muller, she wrote, and you know, 0:37:26.844 --> 0:37:29.084 Muller's gonna do it justice. And by the way, they 0:37:29.084 --> 0:37:30.724 did the same thing the other side with John Durham, 0:37:30.764 --> 0:37:32.644 and they did the same thing with Jack Smith. These 0:37:32.644 --> 0:37:35.644 guys said to me, that was first of all, completely 0:37:35.684 --> 0:37:38.204 a disservice to Robert Muller, the man who was an 0:37:38.204 --> 0:37:40.684 American hero. The guy was shot in Vietnam through his 0:37:40.764 --> 0:37:44.404 leg and returned. He was he was a recipient of 0:37:44.404 --> 0:37:48.284 a purple heart. He's, you know, an FBI director during 0:37:48.324 --> 0:37:51.764 nine to eleven. He hated that crap. He hated being, 0:37:52.404 --> 0:37:55.604 you know, a Twitter meme for liberals. And they also 0:37:55.684 --> 0:37:58.484 say it didn't help us, by the way, because it 0:37:58.604 --> 0:38:02.164 gave the other side fuel to say, look, they're coming 0:38:02.204 --> 0:38:05.244 after us. They've put this attack dog on us. And 0:38:05.324 --> 0:38:08.564 so as much as some liberals had fun with their 0:38:08.644 --> 0:38:11.284 Muller memes, Owlers own team hated it, and they talk 0:38:11.324 --> 0:38:12.124 about that in the book. 0:38:12.204 --> 0:38:14.044 No, that's definitely sorry. 0:38:13.844 --> 0:38:17.764 About Pat Fitzgerald. By the way, I pretty handsome. 0:38:18.404 --> 0:38:22.204 It's okay, it's okay, But you know you aren't you 0:38:22.284 --> 0:38:25.444 happy that you've inspired in dependent historical research on the 0:38:25.444 --> 0:38:26.404 part of your readers. 0:38:26.684 --> 0:38:29.804 I hope for Pat fitz Cherald's spike right right about now. 0:38:29.844 --> 0:38:31.004 That's a good sign. 0:38:36.044 --> 0:38:52.524 And we'll be right back after this break. Who would 0:38:52.564 --> 0:38:54.644 you want to talk to that you weren't able to 0:38:54.684 --> 0:38:56.204 pin me? And what would you ask them? 0:38:56.284 --> 0:39:00.004 That's a great question. The guy I wanted to talk 0:39:00.044 --> 0:39:02.884 to most was Jim Comey, who takes a lot of 0:39:02.884 --> 0:39:06.284 heat in this book. Now, Jim Comy again. I started 0:39:06.364 --> 0:39:10.084 at the SDN y five months for something like that 0:39:10.124 --> 0:39:12.084 after Jim Comy left, and I say in the book 0:39:12.124 --> 0:39:15.444 when I got there, everyone who was already there loved 0:39:15.484 --> 0:39:17.964 and worshiped Comy. They you know, Comy's like six set. 0:39:17.964 --> 0:39:19.724 I've met him. I've had nice conversations with him in 0:39:19.764 --> 0:39:23.124 green rooms and stuff. But Comy declined to speak with 0:39:23.164 --> 0:39:25.404 me because we all know how shy Jim Comey is 0:39:25.404 --> 0:39:29.484 about the meeting. That's a joke. But look, Jim Comy 0:39:29.564 --> 0:39:31.204 takes a lot of shit in this book, and I 0:39:31.204 --> 0:39:34.764 think he deserves it. The incident with Hillary Clinton's email 0:39:34.764 --> 0:39:36.804 that we talked about before, Nate, that you looked into 0:39:36.804 --> 0:39:39.644 whether it may have flipped the election, that is the 0:39:39.644 --> 0:39:42.884 perfect example of why we need rules because what happened 0:39:42.884 --> 0:39:44.724 was Loretta Lynch has our meeting on the tarmac with 0:39:44.764 --> 0:39:48.444 Bill Clinton. They both say nothing inappropriate has happened, was discussed, 0:39:48.444 --> 0:39:51.044 but Loretta Lynch herself said that meeting cast a shadow. 0:39:51.124 --> 0:39:53.804 That's her word over the investigation. She showed at that 0:39:53.844 --> 0:39:55.684 point of a point that a special council it was 0:39:55.684 --> 0:39:59.164 actually briefly considered, but she doesn't. Instead, she says, I'm 0:39:59.164 --> 0:40:00.884 going to just defer to the FBI, which is not 0:40:00.964 --> 0:40:03.004 the way it works. The AG's in charge, Well, what 0:40:03.004 --> 0:40:05.604 do you do. What happens when Jim Comy is told 0:40:05.604 --> 0:40:07.884 I'm going to defer to you. He runs wild. He 0:40:07.924 --> 0:40:10.524 doesn't abide by any of the rules or regulations. He 0:40:10.604 --> 0:40:13.364 does whatever he wants. And that results in two announcements 0:40:13.364 --> 0:40:16.764 shortly before the election, and since then, I don't think 0:40:16.764 --> 0:40:19.844 anybody defends Comey other than himself. I mean, three different 0:40:19.844 --> 0:40:24.204 attorneys general of both parties, a Democrat and two Republicans 0:40:24.204 --> 0:40:26.644 have publicly said that Jim what Jim Comy did was 0:40:26.684 --> 0:40:29.484 absolutely wrong, violated DJ norms. And so if you want 0:40:29.524 --> 0:40:32.124 to know what happens when we try to investigate the president, 0:40:32.164 --> 0:40:34.364 but we make it up as we go along, look 0:40:34.404 --> 0:40:36.004 at Jim Comy, so he didn't he didn't want to 0:40:36.004 --> 0:40:37.644 talk to me. I wish he would have. 0:40:38.084 --> 0:40:41.044 You get these things in like, if you're watching the 0:40:41.164 --> 0:40:44.564 NFL or NHL or NBA whatever, right, where like the 0:40:44.644 --> 0:40:49.044 decisions that officials make are not totally unbiased with respect 0:40:49.124 --> 0:40:51.204 to the game score and the effect on the outcome 0:40:51.284 --> 0:40:54.084 and the and the and the star power of the 0:40:54.124 --> 0:40:57.604 athletes involved, right, And they'll say, well, look, we're trying 0:40:57.644 --> 0:41:00.484 to manage the game. It's an entertainment product. And like, yeah, 0:41:00.524 --> 0:41:02.284 if you're calling some tiki tech foul want to play 0:41:02.284 --> 0:41:05.124 the determines the super Bowl, then that's not good game. 0:41:05.244 --> 0:41:08.204 As an Eagles fan, that hurts. But yeah that's the 0:41:08.204 --> 0:41:10.524 first Chief super Bowl, which bullshit. But god, yeah, you 0:41:11.044 --> 0:41:18.084 guys are spoiled. Now I'm not complaining, but yeah. 0:41:16.404 --> 0:41:22.484 I mean, is a better prosecutor unaware of politics or not? Right, Like, 0:41:22.524 --> 0:41:23.644 let's say you have something that's. 0:41:23.484 --> 0:41:26.964 Gonna know Again, I don't buy into this ideal of 0:41:27.004 --> 0:41:29.284 like the prosecutor locked in a vacuum and just looking 0:41:29.284 --> 0:41:31.964 at the DOJ Justice Manual. Like, I think a good 0:41:31.964 --> 0:41:34.644 prosecutor has to be aware of what the politics are, 0:41:34.764 --> 0:41:37.084 especially in these special council cases because you're gonna have 0:41:37.084 --> 0:41:40.284 the White House involved, You're going to be requesting information 0:41:40.324 --> 0:41:42.644 from the White House. Congress may get involved the media, 0:41:43.604 --> 0:41:45.244 but I think you have to keep your head down 0:41:45.364 --> 0:41:48.524 and I mean it sounds pollyanna ish maybe, and do 0:41:48.604 --> 0:41:51.164 your best to do the job without regard to the 0:41:51.404 --> 0:41:53.524 certainly not the Okay, let me put it this way. 0:41:53.684 --> 0:41:55.964 You have to be aware of an account for the politics, 0:41:56.164 --> 0:41:58.804 but you should never be playing a partisan role. There's 0:41:58.804 --> 0:42:01.884 a difference there. Right, you exist in a political universe. 0:42:02.084 --> 0:42:03.884 But I think when it gets to a point where 0:42:03.884 --> 0:42:07.324 people are with some credibility saying now that's something that 0:42:07.364 --> 0:42:11.164 wouldn't ordinarily be done. Now you're potentially crossing the line 0:42:11.204 --> 0:42:12.124 into partisanship. 0:42:13.484 --> 0:42:15.844 So I think that's a good moment to kind of 0:42:15.884 --> 0:42:19.444 turn to your recommendations, right, which you kind of have 0:42:19.564 --> 0:42:21.924 some end at the end of the book for kind 0:42:21.964 --> 0:42:24.684 of going forward. Now that this office has been like 0:42:24.724 --> 0:42:27.324 completely gutted, right and we don't even know what's going on, 0:42:27.644 --> 0:42:31.044 we basically need to start over. What would your ideal 0:42:31.484 --> 0:42:33.804 look like? How do how do we come back from 0:42:33.844 --> 0:42:36.284 where we are now? How do we create an office 0:42:36.284 --> 0:42:39.724 of whatever we call it? Independent Council Special whatever it is, 0:42:40.364 --> 0:42:43.444 What do we do so that we have investigations that 0:42:43.484 --> 0:42:47.164 are as impartial, you know, with all the caveats as possible, 0:42:47.484 --> 0:42:51.284 and that actually keep people to account who need to 0:42:51.324 --> 0:42:52.124 be held to account. 0:42:52.204 --> 0:42:55.044 Yeah. So, first of all, if you look at history, 0:42:55.044 --> 0:42:57.724 every quarter century or so, we sort of revamped this, right, 0:42:57.764 --> 0:42:59.604 we did one in the seventies, one in the nineties. 0:42:59.644 --> 0:43:04.084 Now Here we are, and there is no perfect system. 0:43:04.124 --> 0:43:06.404 There's no way I do lay out a system at 0:43:06.404 --> 0:43:07.924 the end. There's no way I would tell you it's 0:43:07.964 --> 0:43:11.964 infallible or every you know, there are certainly arguments against it, 0:43:12.364 --> 0:43:14.684 but my first argument is some system is better than 0:43:14.684 --> 0:43:16.644 no system. Just look at Jim Comy again. If you 0:43:16.684 --> 0:43:19.924 want to freestyle all these get ready for more Comy's 0:43:21.084 --> 0:43:23.644 second of all, the crux of what and in coming 0:43:23.724 --> 0:43:28.084 up with this proposal A I looked at scholarly articles 0:43:28.084 --> 0:43:31.324 and law review articles and various other legislative proposals. But 0:43:31.324 --> 0:43:33.884 I also everyone I talked to for this book, all 0:43:33.884 --> 0:43:36.284 the prosecutors, defense layers, white House officials, you name it. 0:43:36.324 --> 0:43:39.204 I said, what how did the rules work for you? 0:43:39.284 --> 0:43:41.364 What rule do you wish have been different? Which which 0:43:41.364 --> 0:43:43.964 ones were effective. The number one thing I think we 0:43:44.044 --> 0:43:48.644 need is a semi permanent special council within DJ nominated 0:43:48.684 --> 0:43:51.084 by the President, confirmed by the Senate to give some 0:43:51.124 --> 0:43:54.004 political look. There has to be some accountability. You can't 0:43:54.004 --> 0:43:57.124 just have a super powerful prosecutor. The AG and all 0:43:57.124 --> 0:43:59.084 the US attorneys have to be nominated to confirm this 0:43:59.124 --> 0:44:01.644 person has the same powers, if not more, and so 0:44:01.924 --> 0:44:06.204 needs to have that political legitimacy to It needs to 0:44:06.244 --> 0:44:08.164 have a set term of years, sort of like the 0:44:08.204 --> 0:44:10.724 FBI director serves for five years, although now Trump just 0:44:10.764 --> 0:44:12.844 fires them at will, but for a long time it 0:44:12.884 --> 0:44:15.084 was like ten years FBI director, I should say, but 0:44:15.204 --> 0:44:17.844 you know, you just you inherited that Mueller carried over 0:44:17.964 --> 0:44:23.204 over various administrations. And the person needs a semi permanent 0:44:23.284 --> 0:44:27.604 staff of prosecutors, analysts, investigators, so you don't have this 0:44:27.684 --> 0:44:32.364 scenario of Ken Starr, Bill Clinton go go. You know, 0:44:32.484 --> 0:44:35.444 Jack Smith, Donald Trump go. So you are looking at 0:44:35.524 --> 0:44:37.364 various things at once. But you know, one of the 0:44:37.364 --> 0:44:39.444 concerns is aren't you going to incentivize this person to 0:44:39.484 --> 0:44:42.324 always be breathing down the president's neck. My answer is 0:44:42.404 --> 0:44:44.844 not if you have the right person. I mean not 0:44:44.884 --> 0:44:49.004 if you have a person who understands prosecutorial restraint and 0:44:49.844 --> 0:44:51.924 you know, so, Look, we rely on the people to 0:44:51.964 --> 0:44:53.964 an extent. But I also think this person needs more 0:44:54.204 --> 0:44:56.844 higher level protection against firing. I think we need to 0:44:56.884 --> 0:45:00.204 more carefully vet our people who are on that team 0:45:00.244 --> 0:45:04.004 for any outwards political biases. There have been people on 0:45:04.044 --> 0:45:07.404 these teams who have been donors and been to campaign parties. 0:45:07.604 --> 0:45:11.684 I think that's disastrous. I talked about one of Muller's 0:45:11.684 --> 0:45:13.564 team members who was at the Hillary Clinton what was 0:45:13.564 --> 0:45:16.404 supposed to be victory party but was not, and has donated. 0:45:16.804 --> 0:45:20.844 And he has defended himself by saying, well, but I 0:45:20.844 --> 0:45:23.604 didn't make any I didn't get anything wrong though. Whatever 0:45:23.644 --> 0:45:25.564 my personal beliefs, I was able to put them aside. 0:45:25.564 --> 0:45:27.964 And I said, yeah, but the other people on the 0:45:28.004 --> 0:45:29.444 team said they had to stop you a couple of 0:45:29.444 --> 0:45:32.764 times from doing things that were inappropriate. And I also said, 0:45:32.764 --> 0:45:34.524 this person wouldn't talk to me either. But I also 0:45:34.644 --> 0:45:37.004 used a baseball analogy. I said, this would be like 0:45:37.084 --> 0:45:39.164 if in the seventh game of the World Series, the 0:45:39.204 --> 0:45:41.044 home plate it was Yankees and Dodgers. I should have 0:45:41.124 --> 0:45:44.644 used a Phillies Astros or something, but Yankees Dodgers. I said, 0:45:44.644 --> 0:45:48.764 what if the homeplate umpire ended up with a high 0:45:48.764 --> 0:45:50.684 game score? Like you know, the computer said he did 0:45:50.684 --> 0:45:52.844 a good job. But on his Instagram page he was 0:45:52.844 --> 0:45:55.484 wearing a Dodgers hat every day. Like would Yankees fans 0:45:55.524 --> 0:45:58.044 be expected to accept that guy? Would the general public 0:45:58.084 --> 0:46:00.524 be expected to accept that guy? So I think we 0:46:00.564 --> 0:46:04.964 need to vet for political bias, you know, donations and 0:46:05.244 --> 0:46:08.644 public statements, that kind of thing. It's not perfect, but 0:46:08.884 --> 0:46:10.924 I do think I do reject the idea that like 0:46:11.124 --> 0:46:12.884 I'm just going to throw my hands up and say 0:46:13.004 --> 0:46:15.924 this is all broken, because that's not dealing with the problem. 0:46:15.964 --> 0:46:17.924 That's just washing your hands of it. 0:46:18.164 --> 0:46:21.084 Ellie, how much could be done via legislation as opposed 0:46:21.124 --> 0:46:23.084 to requiring constitutional changes. 0:46:23.244 --> 0:46:25.364 So you can do all of this basically, I think 0:46:25.404 --> 0:46:28.724 by legislation, I'm not sure, you know, the current Congress 0:46:28.724 --> 0:46:30.804 certainly wouldn't do it, and I'm not sure any But 0:46:31.204 --> 0:46:34.764 the real fallback option A is legislation. Option B is 0:46:34.844 --> 0:46:38.124 DJ can pass its own REGs. The current Special Council. 0:46:38.124 --> 0:46:41.484 There is no law, it's just DJ reggs which are 0:46:41.524 --> 0:46:45.044 passed by DJ itself. So those are the fallbacks I think, 0:46:45.084 --> 0:46:47.324 And by the way, there would be a constitutional challenge. 0:46:47.404 --> 0:46:50.084 There have been over time. It's the systems have always 0:46:50.124 --> 0:46:52.804 withstood it. But that would happen as well. 0:46:54.164 --> 0:46:57.964 So, you know, for people who you know read this, 0:46:58.124 --> 0:47:01.724 who kind of get acquainted with the history, who feel 0:47:01.764 --> 0:47:05.364 your frustration about the current moment and kind of take 0:47:05.404 --> 0:47:08.564 it to heart, what's kind of the big message that 0:47:08.604 --> 0:47:10.844 you want people can have take away from this? 0:47:10.964 --> 0:47:13.964 The big message is we have been grappling with this 0:47:14.084 --> 0:47:15.884 problem for a long time, but it's a problem we 0:47:15.964 --> 0:47:18.204 have to grapple with. And as much as the prior 0:47:18.244 --> 0:47:20.444 investigations have been highly imperfect, and a lot of the 0:47:20.444 --> 0:47:23.484 book is about how flawed some of these investigations were, 0:47:24.124 --> 0:47:27.844 we need this mechanism. It's a crucial check on the presidency. 0:47:28.364 --> 0:47:31.284 And although Donald Trump will be you know, it will 0:47:31.284 --> 0:47:35.444 be go dormant during the next three years, it can 0:47:35.484 --> 0:47:37.684 come back and it needs to come back because otherwise 0:47:37.764 --> 0:47:39.964 we're going to lose a key check on not just 0:47:40.044 --> 0:47:44.404 presidential power, but runaway executive branch power as a whole. 0:47:45.484 --> 0:47:47.444 So, at the end of the day, are you an 0:47:47.444 --> 0:47:49.684 optimist that that will happen or are you a pessimist? 0:47:49.724 --> 0:47:51.324 I tend to be an optimist. I mean, look, I've 0:47:51.364 --> 0:47:53.364 been in media for seven years. I've seen all sorts 0:47:53.364 --> 0:47:56.284 of crazy stuff happen. But I do believe in our institutions. 0:47:56.284 --> 0:47:58.804 I do believe in our laws. I don't think they're perfect, 0:47:58.884 --> 0:48:01.524 but I reject the hyperbolic. You know, I've heard people 0:48:01.524 --> 0:48:03.804 say we'll never have another election. In twenty twenty eight, 0:48:03.844 --> 0:48:06.044 Trump's going to run again. I've always rejected that. I 0:48:06.044 --> 0:48:07.764 don't think that's going to happen. I don't think that's 0:48:08.124 --> 0:48:09.764 I don't think he wants to do that. I do 0:48:09.844 --> 0:48:14.684 believe our laws and our constitution are sturdy enough. They're imperfect, 0:48:14.924 --> 0:48:16.804 but I think they're sturdy enough. They've stood up for 0:48:16.804 --> 0:48:20.644 two hundred and fifty years, and I think if we 0:48:20.724 --> 0:48:23.964 give them thought, they'll continue to stand up. 0:48:25.044 --> 0:48:27.884 I'm very happy to hear that. Thank you so much 0:48:28.044 --> 0:48:32.084 for coming on and sharing your wisdom and your optimism 0:48:32.124 --> 0:48:35.124 with us. Congrats again on the release of your new book, 0:48:35.444 --> 0:48:36.684 When You Come at the King. 0:48:36.844 --> 0:48:38.844 Thanks very much, guys, I appreciate it was great talking 0:48:38.844 --> 0:48:39.084 to you. 0:48:45.124 --> 0:48:46.924 Let us know what you think of the show. Reach 0:48:46.964 --> 0:48:50.644 out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot FM. 0:48:50.844 --> 0:48:54.364 Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova. 0:48:53.644 --> 0:48:56.364 And by me Nate Silver. The show was a cool 0:48:56.404 --> 0:49:00.364 production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 0:49:00.364 --> 0:49:04.724 by Isaa Carter. Our associate producer is Sonia gerwit Lydia, 0:49:04.844 --> 0:49:07.724 Jean Kott and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our 0:49:07.724 --> 0:49:11.604 executive producer is Jacob Gold's mixing by Sarah Bruguer. 0:49:11.884 --> 0:49:14.124 If you like the show, please rate and review us 0:49:14.124 --> 0:49:16.764 so other people can find us too, But once again, 0:49:16.924 --> 0:49:18.724 only if you like us. We don't want those bad 0:49:18.764 --> 0:49:20.964 reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.