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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making

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Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kanikova.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Nate Silver.

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Speaker 1: So today on the show, we have a special guest

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Speaker 1: for you, Ellie Honig, who is CNN's senior legal analyst,

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Speaker 1: former federal prosecutor, author of two prior bestsellers, Hatchetman and Untouchable,

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Speaker 1: and he has a new book coming out called When

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Speaker 1: You've Come at the King.

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Speaker 3: It was great.

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it. Ellie and I actually first met

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Speaker 1: many years ago when I was working on my book

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Speaker 1: The Confidence Game about con artists, and we were introduced

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Speaker 1: by his former BOSSU pret Berrara, and both of them

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Speaker 1: were incredibly hopeful to me in yeah, getting the background

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Speaker 1: for that, getting case information and basically taking down some

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Speaker 1: of the con artists, some of the bad guys who

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Speaker 1: I took down in my book. So it's uh, it's

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Speaker 1: great to be uh to be here with you. Congratulations

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Speaker 1: on the book which is out this week.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you so Maria. You you know I

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Speaker 3: had you on my podcast, if you remember, I did

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Speaker 3: a mob podcast and I needed somebody to help me

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Speaker 3: deep dive the psychology of what goes into a gangster.

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Speaker 3: You had written about that for some magazine outlet and

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Speaker 3: some outlet or other whatever it's called. And Nate, you

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Speaker 3: are in the book, by the way, you are in

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Speaker 3: this book.

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Speaker 1: Nate, you're on page Nate, you're on page one fifty three.

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Speaker 3: Pretty good. How long is this book?

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Speaker 2: I mean, is it the first half?

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Speaker 3: You're in exactly halftime.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's about three hundred pages long, so you're about

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Speaker 1: le halfway through. On the Hillary Clinton emails and whether

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Speaker 1: the cam An investigation ended up costing her the.

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Speaker 3: Election, you got it. And and Nate you your conclusion

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Speaker 3: I think was boiled down was basically probably. But we

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Speaker 3: can't know for sure, right, we can't know for sure.

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Speaker 3: I've blurred it all out of my head.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, the book takes us through the history of

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Speaker 1: I don't know what to call it, Special Counsel and

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Speaker 1: dependent council. Depending on the point in time that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, it's called different things. But before we move forward,

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Speaker 1: can you just define what this is what this office

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Speaker 1: actually is, regardless of name.

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Speaker 3: So it's changed a bit over the years, but currently

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Speaker 3: we call it special Counsel and this is an official

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Speaker 3: who can be appointed by the United States Attorney General

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Speaker 3: in order to conduct a criminal investigation that would pose

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Speaker 3: a conflict of interest for DOJ itself or other quote

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Speaker 3: extraordinary circumstances. So conflict of interest would mean something like,

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Speaker 3: we're investigating the president, who can hire and fire the

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Speaker 3: attorney general. But also plenty of ags have pointed to

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Speaker 3: extraordinary circumstances, which means essentially whatever the AG feels like me,

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Speaker 3: and so there's definitely some wiggle room there. But it's

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Speaker 3: a prosecutor within DJ appointed by the Attorney General for

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Speaker 3: a specific high profile case.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, I'm I'm going to represent that

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing substantial minority, maybe majority, of a civil bulletin

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Speaker 2: audience who thinks.

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Speaker 3: All this legal stuff. They just don't really.

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Speaker 2: Have the compartment for it in their brain, right. They

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Speaker 2: like elections, they like strategy, they like maybe they like

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Speaker 2: cultural fights. But the legal stuff. Yeah, so I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: be the I'm gonna ask the dumb questions.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for asking that. No, but listen, this book

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Speaker 3: is No. I don't do legal ease, and if I do,

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Speaker 3: I will explain it. But like, what drives this book

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Speaker 3: is the stories. I mean, I interviewed thirty five thirty

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Speaker 3: six people on record. By the way, nobody. I didn't

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Speaker 3: allow anybody to be anonymous. People who from WA Aregate

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Speaker 3: prosecutors up until Donald Trump and Jack Smith that case.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't talk to Donald Trump and Jack Smith,

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Speaker 3: but people lawyers on the case. So what really drives us.

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Speaker 3: I love the stories, I love the drama of it.

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Speaker 3: And what you see is it's so human, Like we

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Speaker 3: look at the law as a set of written statutes

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Speaker 3: and rules. But having been a lawyer and a prosecutor

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Speaker 3: for fourteen years and having written this book, I guess

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Speaker 3: one of the major themes is it's so much about

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Speaker 3: the human element, the human emotions, motivations, frailties, and as

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Speaker 3: much as we try to design these systems, and that's important,

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Speaker 3: the actual people are way more important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think we get at that from the

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Speaker 1: title of the book. The title comes from you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the best TV shows of all time, Slash,

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Speaker 1: one of the best political science books of all time.

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Speaker 1: So When You Come at the King is originally Machiavelli,

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Speaker 1: but we know it from Omar in the Wire, and

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Speaker 1: that was a very very I think that's such an

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Speaker 1: interesting choice because Omar is not exactly like the hero

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Speaker 1: that you would think that, you know, a prosecutor would

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Speaker 1: choose to title his book, and he has a very

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Speaker 1: he has a code of ethics, right, he has his

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Speaker 1: code of morals, but it's very specific. So I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to before we get into, you know, the important

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Speaker 1: stuff in the book, I wanted to ask about the

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Speaker 1: inspiration behind your title and kind of the background of that.

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Speaker 3: Taken from Omar and The Wire. Omar, of course, for

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Speaker 3: those who haven't watched The Wire is sort of the

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Speaker 3: lone wolfson pace Michael K. Williams May the late great

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Speaker 3: Michael K. Williams. He is the lone Wolf assassin basically,

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Speaker 3: and one of it there's a famous scene where he says,

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Speaker 3: you come at the King, you best not miss now.

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Speaker 3: I will confess I had a sense that that maybe

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Speaker 3: went pre Omar, and as you said, Maria, it did

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Speaker 3: go back, goes back to Machiavelli, Emerson, others, but let's

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Speaker 3: be real, nobody said it as well as Omar. And

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Speaker 3: there's really two things that motivate I didn't have the

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Speaker 3: title one. I mean, I don't know if you tend

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Speaker 3: to have your titles when you start your books. I haven't.

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Speaker 3: I come up with them as I go, right, But

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Speaker 3: two things. One, the stakes for all involved. I mean

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Speaker 3: I talk to these people who are very accomplished prosecutors,

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Speaker 3: defense lawyers, white House officials, and they all basically were

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Speaker 3: like I'm paraphrasing, you know, but they all basically said,

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Speaker 3: we knew that this is this was all I'd be

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Speaker 3: remembered for. This was life or death politically, legally, et cetera, professionally.

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Speaker 3: The other thing is the retribution angle, right, That's the

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Speaker 3: point of what Omar saying, if you're gonna come after

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Speaker 3: the king, you best not miss otherwise there will be retribution.

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Speaker 3: And that I think reflects very much what's happening certainly

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Speaker 3: right now with Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I think retribution has definitely been part of the

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Speaker 1: both implicit and explicit motives for for a long time.

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Speaker 1: The office, and what I say the office, I mean

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Speaker 1: the Office of Special Counsel is first created after Watergate, right,

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Speaker 1: not before, like when Watergate happens, this doesn't even exist.

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Speaker 1: It leads to the creation. I somehow didn't realize that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, can we just talk about you know, first,

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Speaker 1: why now, like why you decided to write this right now,

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Speaker 1: And secondly, like why why we're starting you know, why

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Speaker 1: you decided to take kind of this historical approach as

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Speaker 1: opposed to just like boom, we're going to start with

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump put us right in the.

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Speaker 3: I mean, look, there are two chapters here about Donald Trump,

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Speaker 3: the two big Trump investigations. But the end part, and

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Speaker 3: this is the why now, is geared at what's happening

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Speaker 3: right now, because I argue in the book it's fundamentally

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Speaker 3: different in kind than anything we've seen throughout our history. Now,

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Speaker 3: I wanted to go back. I actually wondered when was

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Speaker 3: the first outside we'll just call them outside prosecutors, because,

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Speaker 3: as you say, the nomenclature changes. But you know, Watergate's

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Speaker 3: the first one that I think registered for all of

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Speaker 3: you know, I mean, it's before all three of our times.

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Speaker 3: I will say I was born in nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 3: so it was over by then. But the first one

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Speaker 3: was Grant Ulysses ays Grant. The reason I put it

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Speaker 3: in there is because so many of the moves we've

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Speaker 3: become accustomed to we're being done back then. Like it's

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Speaker 3: a long story, I tell it in like one page,

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Speaker 3: but basically there was a kickback scheme with whiskey distillers

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Speaker 3: in Missouri, and so Grant gets pressured into appointing an

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Speaker 3: outside process of course, right, And what ends up happening.

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Speaker 3: The outside prosecutor starts, you know, picking up some low,

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Speaker 3: low hanging fruit, and then he starts getting close to Grant,

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Speaker 3: and Grant fires him, and then the media attacks Grant,

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Speaker 3: and then Grant says, the media is out to get me.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's all so familiar. We've seen it happen many,

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Speaker 3: many times. But Watergate, you're right, I mean people may

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Speaker 3: not realize. John Dean, the famous you know, Watergate witness,

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Speaker 3: the former White House counsel, said to me it was

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Speaker 3: improv There was no at that time, special council, independent

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Speaker 3: council laws, regulations anything that we got them right after

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Speaker 3: because of Watergate. But they were making it up as

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Speaker 3: they went along. They did a pretty good job. But

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Speaker 3: you know that that was the motivation, that was the

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Speaker 3: reason we have these rules now.

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Speaker 1: And you know, even back then, though, I found it

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Speaker 1: really interesting that they were scared that their investigation would

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Speaker 1: be shut down, yeah, and that the evidence would be destroyed.

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Speaker 1: So I actually thought it was really interesting that people

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Speaker 1: brought files home and hid them to try to make

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Speaker 1: sure that they would actually have evidence to prosecute. That

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Speaker 1: was not something we learned in US history, you know

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Speaker 1: that even back then, because to me it seemed, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think, because I'm not a lawyer, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: don't have a legal background. So maybe this, you know,

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Speaker 1: as just a consumer of this, it's probably quite naive

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Speaker 1: of me, But I had thought that this kind of

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Speaker 1: threat to you know, to the prosecution was more of

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Speaker 1: a modern thing, right, was something that just happened basically. Now,

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize that this is something that people had

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Speaker 1: been living with, and that the office was partly created

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Speaker 1: to try to mitigate that.

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Speaker 3: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: We protect the people who were trying to run these investigations.

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Speaker 3: So the book opens with the story from Jill Wyne Banks,

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Speaker 3: who was then thirty years old, one of the Watergate prosecutors,

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Speaker 3: and she told me candidly she would bring photo copies,

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Speaker 3: not originals, but photocopies of key pieces of evidence, notes,

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Speaker 3: witness summaries home and put them in a box because

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Speaker 3: they were afraid that Nixon's goons would ransack the office,

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Speaker 3: and that sort of ended up happening and she says

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Speaker 3: to me something like, I don't know how smartly I

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Speaker 3: thought through my options, and it may have been on

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Speaker 3: the borderline of what we call Rule six e, which

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Speaker 3: is like the grand jury secrecy rules, she said, but

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Speaker 3: we like, in order to protect our investigation, we had

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Speaker 3: to do that. And I love the historical echoes in

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Speaker 3: the book because if you fast forward forty some years,

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Speaker 3: the Mueller team did almost the same thing, higher tech,

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Speaker 3: but they you know, I talked to FBI agents and

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Speaker 3: prosecutors on that team. They said, we made a point

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Speaker 3: of backing up like you back up your files every

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Speaker 3: day to an off site server, because we were worried

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Speaker 3: that same thing that Trump's people would come in and

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Speaker 3: take over and shut down the office. So when you

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Speaker 3: see those echoes, I think it tells us something about

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Speaker 3: sort of the common instinct for self preservation that both

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Speaker 3: presidents and prosecutors have.

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Speaker 2: There's got to be some like Kinkos in Arlington, Virginia

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Speaker 2: where they know every government secret from like nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: five until what do people saw photocopy in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and five or something.

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Speaker 3: I can I tell you something along those lines of day.

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Speaker 3: So there's a moment in here when I'm talking about

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Speaker 3: the Star Report, which I don't know how old you

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Speaker 3: all are, but that, right, this is the big Ken

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Speaker 3: Star Report, and I was trying to explain to people.

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Speaker 1: Are fifty shades of gray right exactly?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, A how this broke was the first real massive

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Speaker 3: Internet moment. I mean, I remember I was in law

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Speaker 3: school at the time. I remember download download download things

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Speaker 3: were crashing, right, and there's all these articles about like

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Speaker 3: can this new thing called the internet support this? But

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Speaker 3: at one point I wrote, however many copies Borders order? Borders,

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Speaker 3: you guys both know was the big bookstore, right. I

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Speaker 3: spent half our lives in Borders as kids. And my

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Speaker 3: one of my copy editors, a much younger person, said,

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Speaker 3: you're going to have to drop a parenthetical explaining what

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Speaker 3: that is. So there is a section there where I

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Speaker 3: say borders and it's sad, but I had to have

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Speaker 3: borders Parenz, which used to be a major national bookstore Kinkos.

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Speaker 3: I think Faul would fall into the same category eight this.

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Speaker 1: I think the Star Report was a really you know,

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Speaker 1: as I could have told you before we started taping.

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Speaker 1: My first I was still in I think elementary school,

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Speaker 1: you know, when this was all happening, and it's my

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Speaker 1: first political memory, like my first big political memory was

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Speaker 1: you know, Monica Lewinski and Star and all of this.

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Speaker 1: I didn't read it too little.

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Speaker 3: It was allowed to. It was a little too.

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Speaker 1: Tittilating for the likes of me. But you know, it

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Speaker 1: was a really I think interesting moment where a lot

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Speaker 1: of people's political consciousness were awakened, like especially people who

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Speaker 1: hadn't lived through Watergate, right, who hadn't who hadn't kind

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Speaker 1: of seen the start of this. So I'd love to

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Speaker 1: just kind of talk through that as just like a

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Speaker 1: big historical moment and what it meant for how the

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Speaker 1: office went forward, because, as you point out, Clinton was

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Speaker 1: the last one to renew the law that was then

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Speaker 1: take you know, was then used to try to take him.

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Speaker 3: Down immediately boomerang. Yeah, look, Ken Starr killed the Independent

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Speaker 3: Council Law. I mean, the Independent Council Law was passed

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Speaker 3: after Watergate, signed by Jimmy Carter, and it died at Sunset.

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Speaker 3: Congress let it die in ninety nine, but it would

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Speaker 3: come up every five or ten years for renewal, and

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Speaker 3: basically every president didn't like it. Ronald Reagan's DJ concluded

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Speaker 3: that it was unconstitutional, but he was like, politically, he

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Speaker 3: felt he had no choice. He had to sign it.

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Speaker 3: When it came up for the final reauthorization in ninety four,

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Speaker 3: George H. W. Bush, the father who Clinton had just

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Speaker 3: defeated in the ninety two election, counseled him like, as

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Speaker 3: a fellow president, you're not gonna want to sign this thing.

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Speaker 3: But Clinton also felt he had no choice signs it

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Speaker 3: and then it becomes the bane of his existence. And

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Speaker 3: you know, that is such a memorable moment. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I was in law school. People may not realize how

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Speaker 3: much on the razor's edge we were. I mean there

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Speaker 3: was a moment when Bill Clinton calls a press conference

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Speaker 3: and we didn't know is he resigning or is Al

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Speaker 3: Gore going to be president by tonight? And you know,

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Speaker 3: I talk about how some of the indelible lines I

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Speaker 3: give the backstory. Right, the two probably most famous lines

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Speaker 3: or infamous lines from that whole thing are, I did

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Speaker 3: not have sexual relations with that woman, miss Lumis. That's

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Speaker 3: my Clinton and the other one is it depends on

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Speaker 3: what the meaning of is is. And I give the

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Speaker 3: backstory on both of them. I won't give it all

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Speaker 3: the way, but I'll just tell you that one of

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Speaker 3: the people I intern was the prosecute so ken Star

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Speaker 3: passed away a few years ago, but his number two

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Speaker 3: was a guy named Saul Weisenberg, who asked the question

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Speaker 3: that Bill Clinton answered, it depends on what the meaning

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Speaker 3: of is is. I also talked to Bill Clinton's lawyers,

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Speaker 3: Whore and the White House lawyers who were by his side.

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Speaker 3: But I asked Weisenberg. I said, how did you feel

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Speaker 3: when he gave you that answer? And Wisemberg said he

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Speaker 3: was very honest. He goes, Look, I'll tell you the truth.

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Speaker 3: That was a four hour timeframe that we had. That

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Speaker 3: was about three hours in and up to that point

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Speaker 3: Clinton was kicking our ass. We didn't get anything out

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Speaker 3: of him. He looked in control, he goes, But when

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Speaker 3: he gave that answer, he looked so smarty, and what

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Speaker 3: he said was so ridiculous. He was a former DOJ lawyer.

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Speaker 3: He said, if I was trying this case to a jury,

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Speaker 3: I would have turned to them and been like, can

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Speaker 3: you believe this guy? And of course that's you know,

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Speaker 3: that's the moment that lives on from that. That's a

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Speaker 3: precipitous moment in history right there.

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Speaker 2: When did this all kind of become a partisan hellscape

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Speaker 2: in your opinion, Elias? I mean, how much it was

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Speaker 2: during the Clinton years or has it just been upping

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Speaker 2: the ante one presidency at a time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always been somewhat. I don't know if partisan

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Speaker 3: in the early days is quite the right word, but

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Speaker 3: it's always been a battle. I mean, everyone's always circled

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Speaker 3: the wagons and geared up for survival Watergate. When you

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Speaker 3: look back at it is shockingly non partisan, right like

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Speaker 3: people within DJ stood up to him. I have scenes

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Speaker 3: in there on the Sunday morning after the Saturday Night

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Speaker 3: massacre where the team is wondering, have we all been.

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Speaker 1: By the way, for our listeners who don't know, Saturday

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Speaker 1: Night ostacer.

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Speaker 3: That was when Nixon fired the special counsel, and then

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Speaker 3: the Attorney General and Deputy Attorney General resigned rather than fire,

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Speaker 3: So the three top officials were all gone. And I

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Speaker 3: talked to the players. They they came in Sunday morning

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Speaker 3: and they didn't know there was actually an erroneous report

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Speaker 3: in the top New York Times that they had all

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Speaker 3: been fired, but they hadn't, and Archibald Cox comes in

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Speaker 3: and says to them, basically, you keep doing this work,

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Speaker 3: don't give him what he wants. Two weeks later, there's

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Speaker 3: a new special prosecutor and ends up, you know, ends

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Speaker 3: up resulting in Nixon's resignation. I think it got really ugly,

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Speaker 3: you know Clinton. I think Clinton ken starrs when people

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Speaker 3: really took their sides and people really dug in. And

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Speaker 3: we've seen that certainly with the Jack Smith Trump case,

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Speaker 3: both sides, certainly with the Joe Biden Robert her classified

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Speaker 3: documents case. I mean, I think everything since Clinton has

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Speaker 3: been pretty politicized. Maybe not the Scooter Libby Pat Fitzgerald case.

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Speaker 3: That one was George Bush was the president was like

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Speaker 3: he was fairly supportive of that investigation happening, but everything

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Speaker 3: else has become just partisan warfare since then.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting that you would put it that in that

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Speaker 1: modern era, because you know, in the book, when you

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Speaker 1: kind of give our Whiskey scandal that we started the

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Speaker 1: show with, you say that that was really the playbook

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Speaker 1: that's kind of still being used to this day, right

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Speaker 1: that we've had the bones of this for centuries.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean the moves that were made,

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Speaker 3: like why does Grant appoint a special counsel because he

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Speaker 3: feels political pressure because his opponent says, I found this

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Speaker 3: scandal and Greg goes, well, well, hold on, we're going

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Speaker 3: to take care of it. We're going to appoint an

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Speaker 3: independent guy. That guy goes out, he starts making headway.

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Speaker 3: When he gets too close, Grant fires. Grant actually tries

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Speaker 3: to do a move that Nixon did a century later.

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Speaker 3: Grant tries to have a military tributal takeover. Nixon tried

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Speaker 3: to have the CIA takeover, but both of them failed,

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Speaker 3: and ultimately it becomes finger pointing both ways, and the

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Speaker 3: media says he's you know, he's covering up, and Grant says,

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Speaker 3: the media is. I mean, he might as well have

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Speaker 3: called it fake news. He didn't use that phrase, but

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Speaker 3: he all but says that in eighteen seventies speak. So

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Speaker 3: I think it's important to understand, you know, people who've

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Speaker 3: only been really following this since Muller think it's brand new.

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Speaker 3: What's happening now Trump two point zero is brand new.

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Speaker 3: But really from Grant through the Jack Smith case, there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of connective tissue. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I always try to emphasize when people are understanding the

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Speaker 2: current very polarized moment in politics that like, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe my generation of political reporters, or maybe maybe one

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Speaker 2: generation older than me, probably right, but not two generations

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Speaker 2: we have grew up in like the lore of post

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Speaker 2: World War two elections, right, Yeah, the fifties, the sixties,

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Speaker 2: the seventies, and if you look historically, this is a

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Speaker 2: time of a very low polarization relative to the baseline,

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Speaker 2: and a time when the fifties in particular, you know,

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Speaker 2: the United States is doing very well. We had a

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Speaker 2: common enemy, we defeated in World War Two. You have

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Speaker 2: this baby boom, this prosperity boom. Right, we have the

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Speaker 2: space race. Right, things are looking up. That's so great

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Speaker 2: if you're a minority in the nineteen fifties or a

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Speaker 2: woman or day or whatever else. Right, But like, but

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Speaker 2: you know, people, society had less conflic than it does now.

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Speaker 2: And you go before that to the turn of the

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Speaker 2: previous century, we had a civil war, Right, partisanship is

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Speaker 2: kind of the norm. But Ellie, but you do think that, like,

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Speaker 2: it's not just MSNBC exaggeration when people say what Trump

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Speaker 2: is doing is is much worse. Half an order of

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Speaker 2: magnitude worse or an order magnitude worse than we've seen before.

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Speaker 3: I often disagree with MSNBC, but I do think it's

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Speaker 3: accurate to say that about what's happening right now this part,

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Speaker 3: because what's different is every president up until now, and

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Speaker 3: I include Trump won in that every president up until

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Speaker 3: now has at least understood there does need to be

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Speaker 3: some sort of outside prosecutorial mechanism, whether they're investigating the

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Speaker 3: president or someone around him, or maybe they're kind of quiet.

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Speaker 3: There wasn't much of this during the Bush or Obama eras,

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Speaker 3: but that I do need to respect this, I do

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Speaker 3: need to let it go. Look, every president or most

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Speaker 3: presidents who've been involved in these cases have tried to

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Speaker 3: undermine them or obstruct them to some degree. But Trump

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Speaker 3: has just come in now and said, oh, we're not

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Speaker 3: even going down that road any There will be no

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Speaker 3: inward looking investigation at me, Donald Trump or anyone around me.

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Speaker 3: And more to the point, and this gets to the title,

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Speaker 3: anyone who looked at me in the past is now

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Speaker 3: getting investigated. It's when you come at the king and

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Speaker 3: also Nate to your other point, you know, I spoke

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Speaker 3: to Carl Bernstein for this book, who I know through CNN.

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Speaker 3: Of course, Carl was the legendary Washington Post reporter who

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Speaker 3: helped break the whole Watergate story. And I said, how

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Speaker 3: did this take so long to play out? Like Nixon

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Speaker 3: survived ten months after that Saturday night massacre during the

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Speaker 3: seventy two election. People may not realize this Watergate break

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Speaker 3: in happened before that. And Carl had already linked a

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Speaker 3: check from the burglars to a Nixon campaign, and Nixon

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Speaker 3: won wins, you know, fift forty nine states and five

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Speaker 3: hundred something electoral votes in seventy two. And I said

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Speaker 3: to Carl, like, how could this be? And he sort

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Speaker 3: of was, He's great, but he was sort of like, okay,

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Speaker 3: young man, let me explain something detail. But he basically

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Speaker 3: said things were different then. He said, by and large,

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Speaker 3: if the president denied something, you didn't automatically take him

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Speaker 3: at his word. But the public was much more likely

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Speaker 3: to give him the benefit of the doubt, as was Congress.

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Speaker 3: And he said things just move slower back then, like

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Speaker 3: it wasn't this twenty four hour boom boom news culture,

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Speaker 3: social media, so you know, but when I sat down,

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Speaker 3: the one point in the book where I sort of

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Speaker 3: cop out and just have a timeline is because it's

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Speaker 3: so confusing, and I think I just said, boom boom,

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Speaker 3: this happened, This happened, this happened, and then we do analysis,

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Speaker 3: but like you have to have that because I cannot

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Speaker 3: believe how long it took for that to play on.

428
00:21:19,444 --> 00:21:21,404
Speaker 3: I can't believe how long he survived politically.

429
00:21:21,924 --> 00:21:26,764
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, bridging, bridging those kind of two

430
00:21:26,844 --> 00:21:30,084
Speaker 1: things together kind of from the Watergate era two nights

431
00:21:30,164 --> 00:21:34,804
Speaker 1: question just now, and how different right Trump two point

432
00:21:34,884 --> 00:21:37,124
Speaker 1: zero is because you write in the book that he,

433
00:21:37,444 --> 00:21:40,244
Speaker 1: you know, Trump one point oh, the original hadn't quote

434
00:21:40,284 --> 00:21:43,604
Speaker 1: fully grasped the lovers of executive pet power, yeah, unquote,

435
00:21:43,964 --> 00:21:46,084
Speaker 1: and now he definitely has. Right the second time around,

436
00:21:46,164 --> 00:21:47,964
Speaker 1: he knows you.

437
00:21:47,964 --> 00:21:50,524
Speaker 3: Just flip it off, Okay, exactly.

438
00:21:50,404 --> 00:21:53,804
Speaker 1: That's what you do to that. And I was actually

439
00:21:53,884 --> 00:21:57,764
Speaker 1: curious under kind of the current regime, right, what has

440
00:21:57,804 --> 00:22:01,324
Speaker 1: happened right now? And kind of the really weird definition

441
00:22:01,444 --> 00:22:05,484
Speaker 1: of presidential immunity right kind of all of that. Do

442
00:22:05,564 --> 00:22:08,324
Speaker 1: we think that all of the cases that you write

443
00:22:08,324 --> 00:22:10,964
Speaker 1: about in the book, including Gate, could they happen today?

444
00:22:11,164 --> 00:22:11,324
Speaker 3: Right?

445
00:22:11,684 --> 00:22:14,244
Speaker 1: Like if something like that happened, if we had a

446
00:22:14,284 --> 00:22:16,244
Speaker 1: Watergate level scandal right now.

447
00:22:16,364 --> 00:22:19,564
Speaker 3: The realistic answer is today, you know, September of twenty

448
00:22:19,604 --> 00:22:22,524
Speaker 3: twenty five. No, because Donald Trump's president and Pambondi's ag

449
00:22:23,164 --> 00:22:25,284
Speaker 3: And I mean, if if you had any question about

450
00:22:25,284 --> 00:22:26,564
Speaker 3: that to me, there was a sort of moment of

451
00:22:26,644 --> 00:22:29,284
Speaker 3: truth with Pambondy a few months ago when the signal

452
00:22:29,324 --> 00:22:32,084
Speaker 3: scandal broke out, right, Mike Waltz and others were using

453
00:22:32,164 --> 00:22:35,324
Speaker 3: this non secure app and discussing military plans. And I

454
00:22:35,364 --> 00:22:37,204
Speaker 3: point out in the book every time we've had any

455
00:22:37,244 --> 00:22:40,724
Speaker 3: sort of classified documents issue before, it's been at least

456
00:22:40,764 --> 00:22:44,444
Speaker 3: an investigation Hillary Clinton's email, Joe Biden, or an investigation

457
00:22:44,524 --> 00:22:47,124
Speaker 3: and an indictment. Donald Trump was indicted for that. And

458
00:22:47,164 --> 00:22:51,684
Speaker 3: Pam Bondi comes out three days after no investigation and says, no,

459
00:22:51,964 --> 00:22:53,924
Speaker 3: nothing to see here. We're not investigating and you all

460
00:22:53,924 --> 00:22:56,404
Speaker 3: should be focused on the success of the military strike

461
00:22:56,684 --> 00:22:58,644
Speaker 3: more than anything else. That was it. What would have

462
00:22:58,644 --> 00:23:01,324
Speaker 3: happened in almost any prior administration, as DJ would have

463
00:23:01,524 --> 00:23:04,364
Speaker 3: convened an investigation. We're taking this very seriously, and six

464
00:23:04,404 --> 00:23:06,644
Speaker 3: months later, maybe they would have issued some report, maybe

465
00:23:06,644 --> 00:23:08,924
Speaker 3: they would have found someone needed to be indicted, But

466
00:23:09,884 --> 00:23:12,644
Speaker 3: here Pambondi was just slammed the door before it could

467
00:23:12,644 --> 00:23:15,364
Speaker 3: even start. Now, I don't think it has to be

468
00:23:15,484 --> 00:23:18,164
Speaker 3: this way forever. And essentially the pitch I make in

469
00:23:18,204 --> 00:23:22,764
Speaker 3: the book is, whenever president comes next forty eight, whoever

470
00:23:22,764 --> 00:23:26,284
Speaker 3: that is, you, sir or ma'am, are going to find

471
00:23:26,284 --> 00:23:28,644
Speaker 3: that a lot of guardrails have been kicked down, and

472
00:23:28,684 --> 00:23:30,884
Speaker 3: it's gonna be mighty tempting for you to leave them down,

473
00:23:30,924 --> 00:23:34,404
Speaker 3: because who wants ethics, who wants restrictions on private profits?

474
00:23:34,724 --> 00:23:38,564
Speaker 3: Who wants special counsel, who wants inspectors general? But this

475
00:23:38,724 --> 00:23:41,164
Speaker 3: one is too important And if we just let this

476
00:23:41,204 --> 00:23:44,004
Speaker 3: one stay dead, then we're gonna have big problems down

477
00:23:44,044 --> 00:23:48,124
Speaker 3: the line.

478
00:23:48,764 --> 00:23:50,164
Speaker 1: And we'll be back right after this.

479
00:24:06,084 --> 00:24:07,324
Speaker 2: How bad was Watergate?

480
00:24:07,444 --> 00:24:07,644
Speaker 3: Right?

481
00:24:07,724 --> 00:24:11,044
Speaker 2: Because you hear about like a quarterback or baseball play,

482
00:24:11,124 --> 00:24:14,804
Speaker 2: you know, Reggie Jackson hit whatever forty seven home runs

483
00:24:14,804 --> 00:24:16,044
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty eight or whatever?

484
00:24:16,204 --> 00:24:17,604
Speaker 3: Are we doing like era inflation?

485
00:24:18,804 --> 00:24:21,284
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like if wanting it happened today.

486
00:24:22,284 --> 00:24:24,604
Speaker 3: Would it be It's a good yeah, that's a good question.

487
00:24:24,644 --> 00:24:27,324
Speaker 3: I mean, let's think about it. So let's let's use

488
00:24:27,324 --> 00:24:28,684
Speaker 3: a real life example who do you want to be

489
00:24:28,724 --> 00:24:31,644
Speaker 3: the bad guys? Democrats are Republicans. Let's make democrats, let's

490
00:24:31,644 --> 00:24:34,084
Speaker 3: say democrats. Let's flip it. Let's flip it. If it

491
00:24:34,164 --> 00:24:36,604
Speaker 3: turned out that a group of burglars had broken into

492
00:24:36,604 --> 00:24:39,004
Speaker 3: the RNC or hacked into an R and C server

493
00:24:39,644 --> 00:24:42,684
Speaker 3: and downloaded a bunch of stuff, and then that was

494
00:24:42,764 --> 00:24:46,724
Speaker 3: tied back to let's say Joe Biden, and it turned

495
00:24:46,764 --> 00:24:48,884
Speaker 3: out Biden knew about it and was in on a

496
00:24:48,964 --> 00:24:51,844
Speaker 3: cover up, that'd be I think that'd be pretty bad, head,

497
00:24:52,044 --> 00:24:54,804
Speaker 3: I mean, right, But then again, I mean if you

498
00:24:54,844 --> 00:24:56,364
Speaker 3: look at some of this stuff Trump, I mean, January

499
00:24:56,404 --> 00:24:58,884
Speaker 3: sixth is hard to compare to anything, you know, the

500
00:24:58,884 --> 00:25:01,924
Speaker 3: possession of classified documents, but I think it's pretty bad.

501
00:25:01,964 --> 00:25:04,124
Speaker 3: Like I don't you know, I look back at Watergate

502
00:25:04,164 --> 00:25:06,644
Speaker 3: and see it as this had to happen. I look

503
00:25:06,724 --> 00:25:09,564
Speaker 3: back at ken Starr and think that was an out

504
00:25:09,604 --> 00:25:12,404
Speaker 3: of control prosecutor, and I think that's I'm certainly not

505
00:25:12,444 --> 00:25:15,564
Speaker 3: alone with that many many Republicans. I mean Clinton left

506
00:25:15,564 --> 00:25:18,524
Speaker 3: office in one Nate, this is up your alley with

507
00:25:18,564 --> 00:25:22,004
Speaker 3: a sixty six percent gallop approval rating, in large part

508
00:25:22,044 --> 00:25:24,804
Speaker 3: because of backlash over the ridiculous impeachment. And by the

509
00:25:24,804 --> 00:25:27,804
Speaker 3: way I talked to in the book, the prosecutor Bob Ray,

510
00:25:27,924 --> 00:25:31,084
Speaker 3: who replaced Ken Starr, comes in at the end and

511
00:25:31,204 --> 00:25:34,644
Speaker 3: he has the unfortunate the impeachment's already over, the failed impeachment.

512
00:25:34,924 --> 00:25:38,284
Speaker 3: He's got to decide, will you indict Bill Clinton? And

513
00:25:38,324 --> 00:25:40,244
Speaker 3: I said to him, Bob, you gotta be kidding me.

514
00:25:40,284 --> 00:25:42,444
Speaker 3: There's no way you're gonna indict in two thousand and

515
00:25:42,444 --> 00:25:46,524
Speaker 3: one Bill Clinton, for you'll never get a single vote

516
00:25:46,524 --> 00:25:49,364
Speaker 3: to convict him. And Bob basically ninety nine percent of

517
00:25:49,364 --> 00:25:51,244
Speaker 3: the way, And the book says, we had all the

518
00:25:51,244 --> 00:25:53,564
Speaker 3: pieces in place. If he didn't reach an agreement with us,

519
00:25:53,564 --> 00:25:55,004
Speaker 3: we would do what we had to do. Now, he

520
00:25:55,084 --> 00:25:57,604
Speaker 3: ended up paying a fine twenty five thousand dollars and

521
00:25:57,684 --> 00:26:00,924
Speaker 3: making a sort of Clintonian statement about misleading the American

522
00:26:00,964 --> 00:26:04,204
Speaker 3: public and giving up his bar license. But I mean,

523
00:26:04,284 --> 00:26:07,404
Speaker 3: I'm shocked by that. But Bob said, I'm glad that

524
00:26:07,524 --> 00:26:09,164
Speaker 3: I didn't it didn't come to that. I'm glad he

525
00:26:09,204 --> 00:26:11,364
Speaker 3: took a deal. And Bob said, by the way, if

526
00:26:11,404 --> 00:26:13,604
Speaker 3: we had indicted him, we could have had a situation

527
00:26:13,644 --> 00:26:16,484
Speaker 3: where we had a president sitting in the dock of

528
00:26:16,484 --> 00:26:19,444
Speaker 3: a criminal courtroom eight months later, nine months later when

529
00:26:19,484 --> 00:26:21,524
Speaker 3: nine to eleven happens, and that would have been Can

530
00:26:21,564 --> 00:26:23,604
Speaker 3: you imagine how horrible that would have been. So, you know,

531
00:26:23,924 --> 00:26:25,524
Speaker 3: it's crazy to me to think that he might have

532
00:26:25,604 --> 00:26:27,604
Speaker 3: indicted Clinton, But if Clinton had said I'm not giving

533
00:26:27,644 --> 00:26:30,444
Speaker 3: an inch, it's pretty clear that he would have been indicted.

534
00:26:30,484 --> 00:26:32,284
Speaker 3: He would have been equitted, but he would have been indicted.

535
00:26:33,324 --> 00:26:36,364
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's really interesting to me when you know,

536
00:26:36,404 --> 00:26:38,644
Speaker 1: when reading this book, and obviously there were some cases

537
00:26:38,684 --> 00:26:41,964
Speaker 1: that I knew and others that I hadn't heard of before.

538
00:26:42,724 --> 00:26:44,684
Speaker 3: It's no listen, nobody knows all these.

539
00:26:45,764 --> 00:26:52,724
Speaker 1: But but you know, the this wide spectrum of seriousness

540
00:26:52,924 --> 00:26:54,444
Speaker 1: is actually quite eye opening.

541
00:26:54,764 --> 00:26:54,924
Speaker 3: Right.

542
00:26:54,964 --> 00:26:57,364
Speaker 1: You have you have things that you're like, okay, like

543
00:26:57,444 --> 00:27:00,124
Speaker 1: I understand, and then you have things that just seem petty,

544
00:27:00,484 --> 00:27:04,124
Speaker 1: and you're like, why are we investigating this? And then

545
00:27:04,164 --> 00:27:05,844
Speaker 1: you realize, and you point this out in the book,

546
00:27:05,924 --> 00:27:08,404
Speaker 1: that the blame isn't just with the special prosecutor. You know,

547
00:27:08,764 --> 00:27:12,124
Speaker 1: it's with people like Reno who say, yes, you know,

548
00:27:12,324 --> 00:27:13,924
Speaker 1: we should we should do this.

549
00:27:14,164 --> 00:27:15,684
Speaker 3: Expand into Monica lays.

550
00:27:15,444 --> 00:27:20,564
Speaker 1: Sad, Yeah, into Lewinsky and they're just some some the

551
00:27:20,604 --> 00:27:23,604
Speaker 1: scale of it seems totally off, and I feel like

552
00:27:23,644 --> 00:27:25,764
Speaker 1: maybe we wouldn't be where we are today if it

553
00:27:25,804 --> 00:27:29,164
Speaker 1: had been more uniformally applied.

554
00:27:29,324 --> 00:27:31,484
Speaker 3: Well, I think it needs to be applied judicially. I

555
00:27:31,524 --> 00:27:34,404
Speaker 3: mean some of these cases where special councils were appointed

556
00:27:34,444 --> 00:27:37,044
Speaker 3: are preposterous. The first, this is one of my favorite facts,

557
00:27:37,244 --> 00:27:39,964
Speaker 3: the first ever independent council. So Watergate happens, we get

558
00:27:39,964 --> 00:27:42,684
Speaker 3: this new law. In seventy eight, the first ever special

559
00:27:42,724 --> 00:27:46,484
Speaker 3: council was appointed to our independent council was appointed to

560
00:27:46,524 --> 00:27:52,124
Speaker 3: investigate alleged cocaine use by a White House, a White

561
00:27:52,164 --> 00:27:54,964
Speaker 3: House advisor at Studio fifty four in Manhattan. I mean,

562
00:27:55,004 --> 00:27:59,004
Speaker 3: what could be more disco era than that? And you know,

563
00:27:59,084 --> 00:28:00,964
Speaker 3: the main guy they talked to was some Johnny C,

564
00:28:01,244 --> 00:28:03,444
Speaker 3: some drug guy at Studio fifty four who was like,

565
00:28:03,484 --> 00:28:05,164
Speaker 3: I think I might have given some guy a two.

566
00:28:05,564 --> 00:28:07,364
Speaker 3: And of course that didn't ever get charged, you know

567
00:28:07,364 --> 00:28:08,684
Speaker 3: they I mean a lot of times the right move

568
00:28:08,764 --> 00:28:13,124
Speaker 3: is you don't charge. But I think he was the

569
00:28:13,164 --> 00:28:17,164
Speaker 3: chief of staff. What's his name, Hamilton Jorden. It spelled

570
00:28:17,244 --> 00:28:19,724
Speaker 3: Jordan j O r Dam, but it's pronounced Jorden as

571
00:28:19,724 --> 00:28:22,124
Speaker 3: I learned during my audiobook, so it was the chief

572
00:28:22,164 --> 00:28:24,324
Speaker 3: of staff to the White House. In fact, the second

573
00:28:24,564 --> 00:28:27,404
Speaker 3: investigation was also a guy using coke. I mean, it

574
00:28:27,404 --> 00:28:30,244
Speaker 3: couldn't be more seventies. But I think I think the

575
00:28:30,284 --> 00:28:33,084
Speaker 3: bar has been raised, and I think people on both

576
00:28:33,084 --> 00:28:36,684
Speaker 3: sides politicians generally now understand we're not going to appoint

577
00:28:36,724 --> 00:28:40,404
Speaker 3: special counsel on pitdling matters. Although you could look at

578
00:28:40,444 --> 00:28:43,404
Speaker 3: Hunter Biden, that prosecutor, and I talked to Hunter's team,

579
00:28:44,044 --> 00:28:47,924
Speaker 3: Abby Lowell, his lawyer, who ferociously objected to this. It

580
00:28:47,964 --> 00:28:51,164
Speaker 3: was a gun and tax case on an Indi private individual.

581
00:28:51,684 --> 00:28:53,764
Speaker 3: And I think there's a lot of criticism to be

582
00:28:53,804 --> 00:28:57,444
Speaker 3: had of Merrick Garland for agreeing to turn that prosecutor,

583
00:28:57,564 --> 00:29:00,844
Speaker 3: David Wise, from a regular DOJ prosecutor. Then he decides

584
00:29:00,844 --> 00:29:02,844
Speaker 3: he wants to be special counsel, and Garland says sure,

585
00:29:02,884 --> 00:29:04,644
Speaker 3: but I think that was a mistake, and I think

586
00:29:04,924 --> 00:29:06,324
Speaker 3: I think you do have to look at what's the

587
00:29:06,364 --> 00:29:07,804
Speaker 3: seriousness of the charges here.

588
00:29:08,044 --> 00:29:11,924
Speaker 2: So do you do you think Democrats came and missed

589
00:29:12,804 --> 00:29:15,364
Speaker 2: with Trump? Do they not go hard enough on the

590
00:29:15,364 --> 00:29:16,044
Speaker 2: best cases?

591
00:29:16,804 --> 00:29:19,484
Speaker 3: So the short answers yes, And the person who I

592
00:29:19,564 --> 00:29:21,604
Speaker 3: laid most flame at in the book is Merrick Garland

593
00:29:21,684 --> 00:29:25,004
Speaker 3: because Jackson. The first sentence of the Jack Smith chapter

594
00:29:25,204 --> 00:29:28,444
Speaker 3: is jack Smith never had a chance because by the

595
00:29:28,524 --> 00:29:31,884
Speaker 3: time Merrick Garland wastes two years and appoints Jack Smith's

596
00:29:31,884 --> 00:29:35,644
Speaker 3: special counsel in November of twenty twenty two, almost two years.

597
00:29:36,044 --> 00:29:38,204
Speaker 3: I wrote in my prior book, which came out in

598
00:29:38,284 --> 00:29:41,644
Speaker 3: mid twenty twenty two, it's already too late. I quoted

599
00:29:41,684 --> 00:29:43,564
Speaker 3: the movie Searching for Bobby Fisher, which I don't know

600
00:29:43,564 --> 00:29:45,844
Speaker 3: if you guys seen a great movie, right, Chess Prodigy movie, yep,

601
00:29:45,884 --> 00:29:48,084
Speaker 3: And the kid says to his opponent, you've already lost.

602
00:29:48,124 --> 00:29:50,324
Speaker 3: You just don't know it yet. And it turned out

603
00:29:50,324 --> 00:29:52,964
Speaker 3: that was correct. There was never any way, if you

604
00:29:53,044 --> 00:29:56,484
Speaker 3: know how long federal prosecutions take, if you knew, which

605
00:29:56,564 --> 00:29:58,044
Speaker 3: we did, because I wrote about in my last book,

606
00:29:58,044 --> 00:29:59,644
Speaker 3: they were going to have to deal with the immunity issue.

607
00:29:59,684 --> 00:30:01,484
Speaker 3: It was going to go to the Supreme Court. There

608
00:30:01,524 --> 00:30:03,404
Speaker 3: was never any way jack Smith was going to get

609
00:30:03,404 --> 00:30:07,924
Speaker 3: his case done tried before the twenty twenty four election. Now,

610
00:30:07,924 --> 00:30:10,484
Speaker 3: if Trump had lost, okay, you know, you try him later.

611
00:30:10,764 --> 00:30:12,324
Speaker 3: But you always knew there was at least a fifty

612
00:30:12,324 --> 00:30:15,324
Speaker 3: to fifty chance Trump would win, So they took that

613
00:30:15,444 --> 00:30:17,164
Speaker 3: risk and they lost. But I think there's there's a

614
00:30:17,164 --> 00:30:20,084
Speaker 3: lot of discussion in here about why Merrick Garland, you

615
00:30:20,124 --> 00:30:23,564
Speaker 3: know the fact that Merrick Garland took too long, and look,

616
00:30:23,604 --> 00:30:28,324
Speaker 3: does that justify retribution? Absolutely not. But Trump has now

617
00:30:28,364 --> 00:30:30,724
Speaker 3: you know, they shot and missed, and Trump's now coming

618
00:30:30,764 --> 00:30:32,724
Speaker 3: back at them.

619
00:30:32,284 --> 00:30:34,244
Speaker 1: And they're not the first ones. So one of the

620
00:30:34,244 --> 00:30:37,124
Speaker 1: things that you know, I was noting as I went

621
00:30:37,324 --> 00:30:39,204
Speaker 1: through the book was, you know, a lot of the

622
00:30:39,204 --> 00:30:42,724
Speaker 1: people who came at the King missed, right, Yeah, well

623
00:30:42,884 --> 00:30:43,684
Speaker 1: missed the mark.

624
00:30:43,644 --> 00:30:46,484
Speaker 3: Yes, and some decided not to take the shot. I mean,

625
00:30:46,684 --> 00:30:49,004
Speaker 3: Robert her with Joe Biden is a good example. You know,

626
00:30:49,084 --> 00:30:52,404
Speaker 3: everyone remembers that Robert Herr said, oh, Biden's an elderly

627
00:30:52,404 --> 00:30:54,284
Speaker 3: man with a faulty memory, blah blah blah. That was

628
00:30:54,324 --> 00:30:56,684
Speaker 3: the big But but what everyone kind of missed is

629
00:30:56,724 --> 00:31:00,444
Speaker 3: that Robert Hurr found that Joe Biden knew he had

630
00:31:00,444 --> 00:31:03,964
Speaker 3: classified documents, like Joe Biden denied that for years. Anything

631
00:31:03,964 --> 00:31:06,724
Speaker 3: I had was in Adverton accidental, accidental. But there's a

632
00:31:06,764 --> 00:31:10,364
Speaker 3: tape we find out of Joe Biden's say to his ghostwriter,

633
00:31:11,364 --> 00:31:13,764
Speaker 3: I just found all the classified stuff downstairs, meaning in

634
00:31:13,804 --> 00:31:16,244
Speaker 3: his private office. So like I sort of said, look,

635
00:31:16,524 --> 00:31:20,004
Speaker 3: Robert Herr could have I think he did the right

636
00:31:20,044 --> 00:31:22,964
Speaker 3: thing by passing on this, but he could have written

637
00:31:23,004 --> 00:31:25,844
Speaker 3: a report that said, while I cannot indict the sitting

638
00:31:25,884 --> 00:31:28,404
Speaker 3: president under long standing DOJ policy, to talk about that

639
00:31:28,444 --> 00:31:30,644
Speaker 3: in the book, I do find that the evidence would

640
00:31:30,644 --> 00:31:33,444
Speaker 3: have been sufficient to uphold a criminal charge. There is

641
00:31:33,484 --> 00:31:39,604
Speaker 3: a criminal charge for knowingly mishandling classified documents. And really

642
00:31:39,964 --> 00:31:44,804
Speaker 3: that statement by Robert Herr is offered to explain his

643
00:31:44,924 --> 00:31:47,364
Speaker 3: calculation on the state of mind, the intent. He says, well,

644
00:31:47,564 --> 00:31:49,244
Speaker 3: it would have been hard to, you know, show a

645
00:31:49,324 --> 00:31:52,164
Speaker 3: jury that he was fully aware, fully remembered. He would

646
00:31:52,204 --> 00:31:54,084
Speaker 3: have been sympathetic to a jury. I mean, but look,

647
00:31:54,124 --> 00:31:56,164
Speaker 3: I talked to Bob Bauer, who's Biden's lawyer, who was

648
00:31:56,164 --> 00:31:58,684
Speaker 3: fiercely critical of her. Said he went too far, said

649
00:31:58,684 --> 00:32:00,364
Speaker 3: he put politically, you know, stuff he shouldn't have put

650
00:32:00,404 --> 00:32:02,404
Speaker 3: in his report. So I kind of leave some of

651
00:32:02,444 --> 00:32:04,004
Speaker 3: this to the reader, you know, I mean, I don't.

652
00:32:04,604 --> 00:32:06,724
Speaker 3: I will let people withdraw their own conclusion, some of them.

653
00:32:06,764 --> 00:32:09,444
Speaker 3: I think there's a definitive conclusion to be drawn. But O,

654
00:32:09,484 --> 00:32:11,644
Speaker 3: there's I think, you know, it depends how you see it.

655
00:32:11,684 --> 00:32:13,804
Speaker 3: So sometimes you know, Look, I make a point of

656
00:32:13,884 --> 00:32:15,524
Speaker 3: saying this in the book, and I say this as

657
00:32:15,564 --> 00:32:17,324
Speaker 3: someone who was a prosecutor for a long time. You

658
00:32:17,324 --> 00:32:20,404
Speaker 3: can't just judge prosecutors. I'm like, what's their stats? Like,

659
00:32:20,444 --> 00:32:22,564
Speaker 3: how man? How many people did you ring up here?

660
00:32:22,764 --> 00:32:24,964
Speaker 3: Because sometimes the right move the better move, and the

661
00:32:25,004 --> 00:32:28,124
Speaker 3: right move is to exercise your discretion against the charge.

662
00:32:28,644 --> 00:32:30,884
Speaker 3: And I think reasonable minds can differ on the Biden case,

663
00:32:30,924 --> 00:32:33,524
Speaker 3: but I think it's hard to say her was wrong.

664
00:32:34,324 --> 00:32:38,044
Speaker 2: What do prosecutors not understand about politics?

665
00:32:40,084 --> 00:32:43,444
Speaker 3: That's a great question question I want to say everything.

666
00:32:43,644 --> 00:32:46,084
Speaker 3: I mean, look, if you would talk to me six

667
00:32:46,164 --> 00:32:48,444
Speaker 3: years ago. Let's say I've been doing media stuff for

668
00:32:48,444 --> 00:32:51,124
Speaker 3: seven years now. In early in my media cra I

669
00:32:51,164 --> 00:32:52,964
Speaker 3: was fresh out of fourteen years of being a prosecutor.

670
00:32:53,004 --> 00:32:55,364
Speaker 3: And I have this very like purest notion of prosecutors.

671
00:32:55,364 --> 00:32:58,604
Speaker 3: Like what we do, especially at DJ is pure. It

672
00:32:58,684 --> 00:33:02,564
Speaker 3: is uninfected by politics. It is separate, apart, and probably

673
00:33:02,604 --> 00:33:08,204
Speaker 3: above from politics. The reality, however, is prosecution is part

674
00:33:08,284 --> 00:33:11,444
Speaker 3: of our It exists within our political system. I mean

675
00:33:11,564 --> 00:33:14,524
Speaker 3: why do we have DJ and an attorney general and

676
00:33:14,564 --> 00:33:17,244
Speaker 3: an executive branch. It's from the Constitution, where all we

677
00:33:17,284 --> 00:33:19,564
Speaker 3: all spring from the same document. And I think it's

678
00:33:19,964 --> 00:33:23,684
Speaker 3: a bit naive to say that like prosecutors are just

679
00:33:23,724 --> 00:33:27,404
Speaker 3: you know, where are white knights and never aware of policy.

680
00:33:27,444 --> 00:33:29,244
Speaker 3: I mean, look, this is part of the complexity of

681
00:33:29,324 --> 00:33:32,484
Speaker 3: Jack Smith. Like did he do his job in a straightforward,

682
00:33:32,524 --> 00:33:35,764
Speaker 3: aggressive way, yes, but there's no question he was rushing

683
00:33:35,804 --> 00:33:38,884
Speaker 3: like mad to get Trump tried before the twenty four election.

684
00:33:39,004 --> 00:33:43,924
Speaker 3: That's an uncomfortable intersection of politics and prosecution and people

685
00:33:43,964 --> 00:33:46,764
Speaker 3: who you know, I point, people sort of defended Jack

686
00:33:46,764 --> 00:33:49,444
Speaker 3: Smith reflexively. I think, because like there was a thing

687
00:33:49,484 --> 00:33:51,444
Speaker 3: for a while, anyone who's going after Trump is good

688
00:33:51,444 --> 00:33:54,644
Speaker 3: by me. I don't buy into that. But Jack Smith

689
00:33:54,844 --> 00:33:59,484
Speaker 3: initially demanded a trial date for Trump five months after

690
00:33:59,484 --> 00:34:02,924
Speaker 3: the indictment on a case with thirteen million pages of discovery.

691
00:34:03,204 --> 00:34:06,164
Speaker 3: That is impossible and unheard of. I actually looked up

692
00:34:06,204 --> 00:34:08,724
Speaker 3: the data. The average case in that court, in DC

693
00:34:08,884 --> 00:34:11,324
Speaker 3: Federal Court, and I'm just talking drug and gun rips

694
00:34:11,324 --> 00:34:14,444
Speaker 3: mostly took twenty eight months. The defendant got twenty eight

695
00:34:14,444 --> 00:34:17,124
Speaker 3: months to prep that two years and change, and Jack

696
00:34:17,124 --> 00:34:19,404
Speaker 3: Smith says, here, we have like the most complex, most

697
00:34:19,444 --> 00:34:21,644
Speaker 3: important case in US history, and he needs to go

698
00:34:21,684 --> 00:34:23,404
Speaker 3: to trial in five months. And I talked to Trump's

699
00:34:23,484 --> 00:34:28,244
Speaker 3: legal team and they said, correctly, like, there's no physical

700
00:34:28,324 --> 00:34:30,724
Speaker 3: way we could have gone through the evidence in that time.

701
00:34:30,884 --> 00:34:32,444
Speaker 3: And the only reason he wasn't able to do it

702
00:34:32,524 --> 00:34:35,084
Speaker 3: was because the immunity decision came in and everything I'll

703
00:34:35,084 --> 00:34:37,364
Speaker 3: put on hold, and then Trump won. So look, I

704
00:34:38,524 --> 00:34:41,004
Speaker 3: understand Jack Smith, I think has the closest to my

705
00:34:41,484 --> 00:34:45,324
Speaker 3: prosecutorial background of like cea target attack target. But I

706
00:34:45,364 --> 00:34:47,644
Speaker 3: also think you can't tell me that Jack Smith was

707
00:34:47,764 --> 00:34:50,564
Speaker 3: unaware of the looming election and trying to get his

708
00:34:50,604 --> 00:34:53,644
Speaker 3: case tried before the election. There's no rational observer who

709
00:34:53,644 --> 00:34:55,284
Speaker 3: could say that he had no idea and didn't care.

710
00:34:55,364 --> 00:34:56,084
Speaker 3: Of course he cared.

711
00:34:56,444 --> 00:34:59,044
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we have a lot of, you know, important

712
00:34:59,084 --> 00:35:02,364
Speaker 1: questions about what should happen, you know, going forward. But

713
00:35:02,444 --> 00:35:04,364
Speaker 1: I do have to say that I did one piece

714
00:35:04,404 --> 00:35:08,044
Speaker 1: of outside research that I was inspired to do based

715
00:35:08,044 --> 00:35:11,804
Speaker 1: on your book, and you included a detail about Patrick Fitzgerald,

716
00:35:12,204 --> 00:35:14,684
Speaker 1: who was the special counsel who was put in charge

717
00:35:14,724 --> 00:35:18,324
Speaker 1: of investigating the Bush administration for leaking the identity of

718
00:35:18,444 --> 00:35:21,964
Speaker 1: a CIA agent. But that's not what I took away

719
00:35:22,004 --> 00:35:24,484
Speaker 1: from that chapter. What I took away was that he

720
00:35:25,044 --> 00:35:29,684
Speaker 1: was one of people's fifty sexiest men Alive of two

721
00:35:29,764 --> 00:35:30,364
Speaker 1: thousand and five.

722
00:35:30,444 --> 00:35:33,204
Speaker 3: Yes, sexy, and he wasn't, but he was on the list.

723
00:35:33,324 --> 00:35:37,124
Speaker 1: No, Matthew McConaughey that year was the sexiest man alive. Yes,

724
00:35:37,324 --> 00:35:39,484
Speaker 1: just edged him out. And I was like, what the fuck? Like,

725
00:35:39,564 --> 00:35:42,164
Speaker 1: who is this guy? So I looked him up and

726
00:35:42,284 --> 00:35:44,124
Speaker 1: my answer is what the fuck?

727
00:35:44,164 --> 00:35:47,844
Speaker 3: Okay, So my editor, my editor, Maria, one of my

728
00:35:48,044 --> 00:35:50,364
Speaker 3: fact checkers and editors, who was a woman of about

729
00:35:50,404 --> 00:35:54,964
Speaker 3: your age, dropped and note in the manuscript saying, holy shit,

730
00:35:55,044 --> 00:35:59,284
Speaker 3: did you just disappoint me? Because because Pat Fitzger, she

731
00:35:59,324 --> 00:36:02,724
Speaker 3: did the same thing as you. She googled him. Now, child,

732
00:36:03,084 --> 00:36:05,644
Speaker 3: he's a good looking guy, right, Like he's above that average.

733
00:36:06,324 --> 00:36:09,684
Speaker 1: He's maybe above average, I don't know, but fifty sexes

734
00:36:09,804 --> 00:36:12,404
Speaker 1: met alive? Like what was he doing as a special

735
00:36:12,484 --> 00:36:14,484
Speaker 1: prosecutor that made him?

736
00:36:15,004 --> 00:36:15,084
Speaker 3: Like?

737
00:36:15,564 --> 00:36:17,164
Speaker 1: What what a funny moment in history?

738
00:36:17,284 --> 00:36:23,164
Speaker 3: Number one? Number one? That is, you know, objectively, he's

739
00:36:23,204 --> 00:36:26,964
Speaker 3: the only special counsel ever named sexiest anything. I've never seen.

740
00:36:27,244 --> 00:36:28,964
Speaker 3: You know, the guy from the Whiskey Rain was not

741
00:36:29,044 --> 00:36:32,604
Speaker 3: named sexiest anything by the New York Herald number two.

742
00:36:34,404 --> 00:36:37,124
Speaker 3: I think it's actually a good reminder of like I remember,

743
00:36:37,164 --> 00:36:39,644
Speaker 3: because I had just started at DJ. I started an

744
00:36:39,844 --> 00:36:42,524
Speaker 3: four and this investigation went crazy in five six oh

745
00:36:42,564 --> 00:36:44,804
Speaker 3: s and Fitzgerald had come out of the office I

746
00:36:44,844 --> 00:36:46,884
Speaker 3: had started in. I don't know him, I've never met him.

747
00:36:46,884 --> 00:36:49,044
Speaker 3: He didn't talk to me because he's sort of retired.

748
00:36:49,084 --> 00:36:50,524
Speaker 3: He lives like in I don't want to say where,

749
00:36:50,564 --> 00:36:52,644
Speaker 3: but he lives a quiet life out of the law now.

750
00:36:53,164 --> 00:36:56,244
Speaker 3: And he very politely declined. But everyone at the office

751
00:36:56,284 --> 00:37:00,524
Speaker 3: I worked at worshiped this guy. Loved him. He's hilarious,

752
00:37:00,564 --> 00:37:03,564
Speaker 3: he's brilliant, and I think just something he was the guy.

753
00:37:03,684 --> 00:37:07,204
Speaker 3: He was the Jack Smith, the Robert Muller of two

754
00:37:07,284 --> 00:37:09,444
Speaker 3: thousand and five six, and you know, like that what

755
00:37:09,644 --> 00:37:13,364
Speaker 3: kind of iconography or whatever? You know, I talk about

756
00:37:13,364 --> 00:37:15,844
Speaker 3: that with Muller, right, remember all the Muller action figures

757
00:37:15,884 --> 00:37:18,124
Speaker 3: and memes and He's gonna get you and all this.

758
00:37:18,484 --> 00:37:20,844
Speaker 3: You know, Muller's team made a really interesting points. I

759
00:37:21,364 --> 00:37:23,644
Speaker 3: talked to a couple of the prosecutors. They said, people

760
00:37:23,684 --> 00:37:26,524
Speaker 3: who were spreading that stuff Muller, she wrote, and you know,

761
00:37:26,844 --> 00:37:29,084
Speaker 3: Muller's gonna do it justice. And by the way, they

762
00:37:29,084 --> 00:37:30,724
Speaker 3: did the same thing the other side with John Durham,

763
00:37:30,764 --> 00:37:32,644
Speaker 3: and they did the same thing with Jack Smith. These

764
00:37:32,644 --> 00:37:35,644
Speaker 3: guys said to me, that was first of all, completely

765
00:37:35,684 --> 00:37:38,204
Speaker 3: a disservice to Robert Muller, the man who was an

766
00:37:38,204 --> 00:37:40,684
Speaker 3: American hero. The guy was shot in Vietnam through his

767
00:37:40,764 --> 00:37:44,404
Speaker 3: leg and returned. He was he was a recipient of

768
00:37:44,404 --> 00:37:48,284
Speaker 3: a purple heart. He's, you know, an FBI director during

769
00:37:48,324 --> 00:37:51,764
Speaker 3: nine to eleven. He hated that crap. He hated being,

770
00:37:52,404 --> 00:37:55,604
Speaker 3: you know, a Twitter meme for liberals. And they also

771
00:37:55,684 --> 00:37:58,484
Speaker 3: say it didn't help us, by the way, because it

772
00:37:58,604 --> 00:38:02,164
Speaker 3: gave the other side fuel to say, look, they're coming

773
00:38:02,204 --> 00:38:05,244
Speaker 3: after us. They've put this attack dog on us. And

774
00:38:05,324 --> 00:38:08,564
Speaker 3: so as much as some liberals had fun with their

775
00:38:08,644 --> 00:38:11,284
Speaker 3: Muller memes, Owlers own team hated it, and they talk

776
00:38:11,324 --> 00:38:12,124
Speaker 3: about that in the book.

777
00:38:12,204 --> 00:38:14,044
Speaker 1: No, that's definitely sorry.

778
00:38:13,844 --> 00:38:17,764
Speaker 3: About Pat Fitzgerald. By the way, I pretty handsome.

779
00:38:18,404 --> 00:38:22,204
Speaker 1: It's okay, it's okay, But you know you aren't you

780
00:38:22,284 --> 00:38:25,444
Speaker 1: happy that you've inspired in dependent historical research on the

781
00:38:25,444 --> 00:38:26,404
Speaker 1: part of your readers.

782
00:38:26,684 --> 00:38:29,804
Speaker 3: I hope for Pat fitz Cherald's spike right right about now.

783
00:38:29,844 --> 00:38:31,004
Speaker 3: That's a good sign.

784
00:38:36,044 --> 00:38:52,524
Speaker 2: And we'll be right back after this break. Who would

785
00:38:52,564 --> 00:38:54,644
Speaker 2: you want to talk to that you weren't able to

786
00:38:54,684 --> 00:38:56,204
Speaker 2: pin me? And what would you ask them?

787
00:38:56,284 --> 00:39:00,004
Speaker 3: That's a great question. The guy I wanted to talk

788
00:39:00,044 --> 00:39:02,884
Speaker 3: to most was Jim Comey, who takes a lot of

789
00:39:02,884 --> 00:39:06,284
Speaker 3: heat in this book. Now, Jim Comy again. I started

790
00:39:06,364 --> 00:39:10,084
Speaker 3: at the SDN y five months for something like that

791
00:39:10,124 --> 00:39:12,084
Speaker 3: after Jim Comy left, and I say in the book

792
00:39:12,124 --> 00:39:15,444
Speaker 3: when I got there, everyone who was already there loved

793
00:39:15,484 --> 00:39:17,964
Speaker 3: and worshiped Comy. They you know, Comy's like six set.

794
00:39:17,964 --> 00:39:19,724
Speaker 3: I've met him. I've had nice conversations with him in

795
00:39:19,764 --> 00:39:23,124
Speaker 3: green rooms and stuff. But Comy declined to speak with

796
00:39:23,164 --> 00:39:25,404
Speaker 3: me because we all know how shy Jim Comey is

797
00:39:25,404 --> 00:39:29,484
Speaker 3: about the meeting. That's a joke. But look, Jim Comy

798
00:39:29,564 --> 00:39:31,204
Speaker 3: takes a lot of shit in this book, and I

799
00:39:31,204 --> 00:39:34,764
Speaker 3: think he deserves it. The incident with Hillary Clinton's email

800
00:39:34,764 --> 00:39:36,804
Speaker 3: that we talked about before, Nate, that you looked into

801
00:39:36,804 --> 00:39:39,644
Speaker 3: whether it may have flipped the election, that is the

802
00:39:39,644 --> 00:39:42,884
Speaker 3: perfect example of why we need rules because what happened

803
00:39:42,884 --> 00:39:44,724
Speaker 3: was Loretta Lynch has our meeting on the tarmac with

804
00:39:44,764 --> 00:39:48,444
Speaker 3: Bill Clinton. They both say nothing inappropriate has happened, was discussed,

805
00:39:48,444 --> 00:39:51,044
Speaker 3: but Loretta Lynch herself said that meeting cast a shadow.

806
00:39:51,124 --> 00:39:53,804
Speaker 3: That's her word over the investigation. She showed at that

807
00:39:53,844 --> 00:39:55,684
Speaker 3: point of a point that a special council it was

808
00:39:55,684 --> 00:39:59,164
Speaker 3: actually briefly considered, but she doesn't. Instead, she says, I'm

809
00:39:59,164 --> 00:40:00,884
Speaker 3: going to just defer to the FBI, which is not

810
00:40:00,964 --> 00:40:03,004
Speaker 3: the way it works. The AG's in charge, Well, what

811
00:40:03,004 --> 00:40:05,604
Speaker 3: do you do. What happens when Jim Comy is told

812
00:40:05,604 --> 00:40:07,884
Speaker 3: I'm going to defer to you. He runs wild. He

813
00:40:07,924 --> 00:40:10,524
Speaker 3: doesn't abide by any of the rules or regulations. He

814
00:40:10,604 --> 00:40:13,364
Speaker 3: does whatever he wants. And that results in two announcements

815
00:40:13,364 --> 00:40:16,764
Speaker 3: shortly before the election, and since then, I don't think

816
00:40:16,764 --> 00:40:19,844
Speaker 3: anybody defends Comey other than himself. I mean, three different

817
00:40:19,844 --> 00:40:24,204
Speaker 3: attorneys general of both parties, a Democrat and two Republicans

818
00:40:24,204 --> 00:40:26,644
Speaker 3: have publicly said that Jim what Jim Comy did was

819
00:40:26,684 --> 00:40:29,484
Speaker 3: absolutely wrong, violated DJ norms. And so if you want

820
00:40:29,524 --> 00:40:32,124
Speaker 3: to know what happens when we try to investigate the president,

821
00:40:32,164 --> 00:40:34,364
Speaker 3: but we make it up as we go along, look

822
00:40:34,404 --> 00:40:36,004
Speaker 3: at Jim Comy, so he didn't he didn't want to

823
00:40:36,004 --> 00:40:37,644
Speaker 3: talk to me. I wish he would have.

824
00:40:38,084 --> 00:40:41,044
Speaker 2: You get these things in like, if you're watching the

825
00:40:41,164 --> 00:40:44,564
Speaker 2: NFL or NHL or NBA whatever, right, where like the

826
00:40:44,644 --> 00:40:49,044
Speaker 2: decisions that officials make are not totally unbiased with respect

827
00:40:49,124 --> 00:40:51,204
Speaker 2: to the game score and the effect on the outcome

828
00:40:51,284 --> 00:40:54,084
Speaker 2: and the and the and the star power of the

829
00:40:54,124 --> 00:40:57,604
Speaker 2: athletes involved, right, And they'll say, well, look, we're trying

830
00:40:57,644 --> 00:41:00,484
Speaker 2: to manage the game. It's an entertainment product. And like, yeah,

831
00:41:00,524 --> 00:41:02,284
Speaker 2: if you're calling some tiki tech foul want to play

832
00:41:02,284 --> 00:41:05,124
Speaker 2: the determines the super Bowl, then that's not good game.

833
00:41:05,244 --> 00:41:08,204
Speaker 3: As an Eagles fan, that hurts. But yeah that's the

834
00:41:08,204 --> 00:41:10,524
Speaker 3: first Chief super Bowl, which bullshit. But god, yeah, you

835
00:41:11,044 --> 00:41:18,084
Speaker 3: guys are spoiled. Now I'm not complaining, but yeah.

836
00:41:16,404 --> 00:41:22,484
Speaker 2: I mean, is a better prosecutor unaware of politics or not? Right, Like,

837
00:41:22,524 --> 00:41:23,644
Speaker 2: let's say you have something that's.

838
00:41:23,484 --> 00:41:26,964
Speaker 3: Gonna know Again, I don't buy into this ideal of

839
00:41:27,004 --> 00:41:29,284
Speaker 3: like the prosecutor locked in a vacuum and just looking

840
00:41:29,284 --> 00:41:31,964
Speaker 3: at the DOJ Justice Manual. Like, I think a good

841
00:41:31,964 --> 00:41:34,644
Speaker 3: prosecutor has to be aware of what the politics are,

842
00:41:34,764 --> 00:41:37,084
Speaker 3: especially in these special council cases because you're gonna have

843
00:41:37,084 --> 00:41:40,284
Speaker 3: the White House involved, You're going to be requesting information

844
00:41:40,324 --> 00:41:42,644
Speaker 3: from the White House. Congress may get involved the media,

845
00:41:43,604 --> 00:41:45,244
Speaker 3: but I think you have to keep your head down

846
00:41:45,364 --> 00:41:48,524
Speaker 3: and I mean it sounds pollyanna ish maybe, and do

847
00:41:48,604 --> 00:41:51,164
Speaker 3: your best to do the job without regard to the

848
00:41:51,404 --> 00:41:53,524
Speaker 3: certainly not the Okay, let me put it this way.

849
00:41:53,684 --> 00:41:55,964
Speaker 3: You have to be aware of an account for the politics,

850
00:41:56,164 --> 00:41:58,804
Speaker 3: but you should never be playing a partisan role. There's

851
00:41:58,804 --> 00:42:01,884
Speaker 3: a difference there. Right, you exist in a political universe.

852
00:42:02,084 --> 00:42:03,884
Speaker 3: But I think when it gets to a point where

853
00:42:03,884 --> 00:42:07,324
Speaker 3: people are with some credibility saying now that's something that

854
00:42:07,364 --> 00:42:11,164
Speaker 3: wouldn't ordinarily be done. Now you're potentially crossing the line

855
00:42:11,204 --> 00:42:12,124
Speaker 3: into partisanship.

856
00:42:13,484 --> 00:42:15,844
Speaker 1: So I think that's a good moment to kind of

857
00:42:15,884 --> 00:42:19,444
Speaker 1: turn to your recommendations, right, which you kind of have

858
00:42:19,564 --> 00:42:21,924
Speaker 1: some end at the end of the book for kind

859
00:42:21,964 --> 00:42:24,684
Speaker 1: of going forward. Now that this office has been like

860
00:42:24,724 --> 00:42:27,324
Speaker 1: completely gutted, right and we don't even know what's going on,

861
00:42:27,644 --> 00:42:31,044
Speaker 1: we basically need to start over. What would your ideal

862
00:42:31,484 --> 00:42:33,804
Speaker 1: look like? How do how do we come back from

863
00:42:33,844 --> 00:42:36,284
Speaker 1: where we are now? How do we create an office

864
00:42:36,284 --> 00:42:39,724
Speaker 1: of whatever we call it? Independent Council Special whatever it is,

865
00:42:40,364 --> 00:42:43,444
Speaker 1: What do we do so that we have investigations that

866
00:42:43,484 --> 00:42:47,164
Speaker 1: are as impartial, you know, with all the caveats as possible,

867
00:42:47,484 --> 00:42:51,284
Speaker 1: and that actually keep people to account who need to

868
00:42:51,324 --> 00:42:52,124
Speaker 1: be held to account.

869
00:42:52,204 --> 00:42:55,044
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, first of all, if you look at history,

870
00:42:55,044 --> 00:42:57,724
Speaker 3: every quarter century or so, we sort of revamped this, right,

871
00:42:57,764 --> 00:42:59,604
Speaker 3: we did one in the seventies, one in the nineties.

872
00:42:59,644 --> 00:43:04,084
Speaker 3: Now Here we are, and there is no perfect system.

873
00:43:04,124 --> 00:43:06,404
Speaker 3: There's no way I do lay out a system at

874
00:43:06,404 --> 00:43:07,924
Speaker 3: the end. There's no way I would tell you it's

875
00:43:07,964 --> 00:43:11,964
Speaker 3: infallible or every you know, there are certainly arguments against it,

876
00:43:12,364 --> 00:43:14,684
Speaker 3: but my first argument is some system is better than

877
00:43:14,684 --> 00:43:16,644
Speaker 3: no system. Just look at Jim Comy again. If you

878
00:43:16,684 --> 00:43:19,924
Speaker 3: want to freestyle all these get ready for more Comy's

879
00:43:21,084 --> 00:43:23,644
Speaker 3: second of all, the crux of what and in coming

880
00:43:23,724 --> 00:43:28,084
Speaker 3: up with this proposal A I looked at scholarly articles

881
00:43:28,084 --> 00:43:31,324
Speaker 3: and law review articles and various other legislative proposals. But

882
00:43:31,324 --> 00:43:33,884
Speaker 3: I also everyone I talked to for this book, all

883
00:43:33,884 --> 00:43:36,284
Speaker 3: the prosecutors, defense layers, white House officials, you name it.

884
00:43:36,324 --> 00:43:39,204
Speaker 3: I said, what how did the rules work for you?

885
00:43:39,284 --> 00:43:41,364
Speaker 3: What rule do you wish have been different? Which which

886
00:43:41,364 --> 00:43:43,964
Speaker 3: ones were effective. The number one thing I think we

887
00:43:44,044 --> 00:43:48,644
Speaker 3: need is a semi permanent special council within DJ nominated

888
00:43:48,684 --> 00:43:51,084
Speaker 3: by the President, confirmed by the Senate to give some

889
00:43:51,124 --> 00:43:54,004
Speaker 3: political look. There has to be some accountability. You can't

890
00:43:54,004 --> 00:43:57,124
Speaker 3: just have a super powerful prosecutor. The AG and all

891
00:43:57,124 --> 00:43:59,084
Speaker 3: the US attorneys have to be nominated to confirm this

892
00:43:59,124 --> 00:44:01,644
Speaker 3: person has the same powers, if not more, and so

893
00:44:01,924 --> 00:44:06,204
Speaker 3: needs to have that political legitimacy to It needs to

894
00:44:06,244 --> 00:44:08,164
Speaker 3: have a set term of years, sort of like the

895
00:44:08,204 --> 00:44:10,724
Speaker 3: FBI director serves for five years, although now Trump just

896
00:44:10,764 --> 00:44:12,844
Speaker 3: fires them at will, but for a long time it

897
00:44:12,884 --> 00:44:15,084
Speaker 3: was like ten years FBI director, I should say, but

898
00:44:15,204 --> 00:44:17,844
Speaker 3: you know, you just you inherited that Mueller carried over

899
00:44:17,964 --> 00:44:23,204
Speaker 3: over various administrations. And the person needs a semi permanent

900
00:44:23,284 --> 00:44:27,604
Speaker 3: staff of prosecutors, analysts, investigators, so you don't have this

901
00:44:27,684 --> 00:44:32,364
Speaker 3: scenario of Ken Starr, Bill Clinton go go. You know,

902
00:44:32,484 --> 00:44:35,444
Speaker 3: Jack Smith, Donald Trump go. So you are looking at

903
00:44:35,524 --> 00:44:37,364
Speaker 3: various things at once. But you know, one of the

904
00:44:37,364 --> 00:44:39,444
Speaker 3: concerns is aren't you going to incentivize this person to

905
00:44:39,484 --> 00:44:42,324
Speaker 3: always be breathing down the president's neck. My answer is

906
00:44:42,404 --> 00:44:44,844
Speaker 3: not if you have the right person. I mean not

907
00:44:44,884 --> 00:44:49,004
Speaker 3: if you have a person who understands prosecutorial restraint and

908
00:44:49,844 --> 00:44:51,924
Speaker 3: you know, so, Look, we rely on the people to

909
00:44:51,964 --> 00:44:53,964
Speaker 3: an extent. But I also think this person needs more

910
00:44:54,204 --> 00:44:56,844
Speaker 3: higher level protection against firing. I think we need to

911
00:44:56,884 --> 00:45:00,204
Speaker 3: more carefully vet our people who are on that team

912
00:45:00,244 --> 00:45:04,004
Speaker 3: for any outwards political biases. There have been people on

913
00:45:04,044 --> 00:45:07,404
Speaker 3: these teams who have been donors and been to campaign parties.

914
00:45:07,604 --> 00:45:11,684
Speaker 3: I think that's disastrous. I talked about one of Muller's

915
00:45:11,684 --> 00:45:13,564
Speaker 3: team members who was at the Hillary Clinton what was

916
00:45:13,564 --> 00:45:16,404
Speaker 3: supposed to be victory party but was not, and has donated.

917
00:45:16,804 --> 00:45:20,844
Speaker 3: And he has defended himself by saying, well, but I

918
00:45:20,844 --> 00:45:23,604
Speaker 3: didn't make any I didn't get anything wrong though. Whatever

919
00:45:23,644 --> 00:45:25,564
Speaker 3: my personal beliefs, I was able to put them aside.

920
00:45:25,564 --> 00:45:27,964
Speaker 3: And I said, yeah, but the other people on the

921
00:45:28,004 --> 00:45:29,444
Speaker 3: team said they had to stop you a couple of

922
00:45:29,444 --> 00:45:32,764
Speaker 3: times from doing things that were inappropriate. And I also said,

923
00:45:32,764 --> 00:45:34,524
Speaker 3: this person wouldn't talk to me either. But I also

924
00:45:34,644 --> 00:45:37,004
Speaker 3: used a baseball analogy. I said, this would be like

925
00:45:37,084 --> 00:45:39,164
Speaker 3: if in the seventh game of the World Series, the

926
00:45:39,204 --> 00:45:41,044
Speaker 3: home plate it was Yankees and Dodgers. I should have

927
00:45:41,124 --> 00:45:44,644
Speaker 3: used a Phillies Astros or something, but Yankees Dodgers. I said,

928
00:45:44,644 --> 00:45:48,764
Speaker 3: what if the homeplate umpire ended up with a high

929
00:45:48,764 --> 00:45:50,684
Speaker 3: game score? Like you know, the computer said he did

930
00:45:50,684 --> 00:45:52,844
Speaker 3: a good job. But on his Instagram page he was

931
00:45:52,844 --> 00:45:55,484
Speaker 3: wearing a Dodgers hat every day. Like would Yankees fans

932
00:45:55,524 --> 00:45:58,044
Speaker 3: be expected to accept that guy? Would the general public

933
00:45:58,084 --> 00:46:00,524
Speaker 3: be expected to accept that guy? So I think we

934
00:46:00,564 --> 00:46:04,964
Speaker 3: need to vet for political bias, you know, donations and

935
00:46:05,244 --> 00:46:08,644
Speaker 3: public statements, that kind of thing. It's not perfect, but

936
00:46:08,884 --> 00:46:10,924
Speaker 3: I do think I do reject the idea that like

937
00:46:11,124 --> 00:46:12,884
Speaker 3: I'm just going to throw my hands up and say

938
00:46:13,004 --> 00:46:15,924
Speaker 3: this is all broken, because that's not dealing with the problem.

939
00:46:15,964 --> 00:46:17,924
Speaker 3: That's just washing your hands of it.

940
00:46:18,164 --> 00:46:21,084
Speaker 2: Ellie, how much could be done via legislation as opposed

941
00:46:21,124 --> 00:46:23,084
Speaker 2: to requiring constitutional changes.

942
00:46:23,244 --> 00:46:25,364
Speaker 3: So you can do all of this basically, I think

943
00:46:25,404 --> 00:46:28,724
Speaker 3: by legislation, I'm not sure, you know, the current Congress

944
00:46:28,724 --> 00:46:30,804
Speaker 3: certainly wouldn't do it, and I'm not sure any But

945
00:46:31,204 --> 00:46:34,764
Speaker 3: the real fallback option A is legislation. Option B is

946
00:46:34,844 --> 00:46:38,124
Speaker 3: DJ can pass its own REGs. The current Special Council.

947
00:46:38,124 --> 00:46:41,484
Speaker 3: There is no law, it's just DJ reggs which are

948
00:46:41,524 --> 00:46:45,044
Speaker 3: passed by DJ itself. So those are the fallbacks I think,

949
00:46:45,084 --> 00:46:47,324
Speaker 3: And by the way, there would be a constitutional challenge.

950
00:46:47,404 --> 00:46:50,084
Speaker 3: There have been over time. It's the systems have always

951
00:46:50,124 --> 00:46:52,804
Speaker 3: withstood it. But that would happen as well.

952
00:46:54,164 --> 00:46:57,964
Speaker 1: So, you know, for people who you know read this,

953
00:46:58,124 --> 00:47:01,724
Speaker 1: who kind of get acquainted with the history, who feel

954
00:47:01,764 --> 00:47:05,364
Speaker 1: your frustration about the current moment and kind of take

955
00:47:05,404 --> 00:47:08,564
Speaker 1: it to heart, what's kind of the big message that

956
00:47:08,604 --> 00:47:10,844
Speaker 1: you want people can have take away from this?

957
00:47:10,964 --> 00:47:13,964
Speaker 3: The big message is we have been grappling with this

958
00:47:14,084 --> 00:47:15,884
Speaker 3: problem for a long time, but it's a problem we

959
00:47:15,964 --> 00:47:18,204
Speaker 3: have to grapple with. And as much as the prior

960
00:47:18,244 --> 00:47:20,444
Speaker 3: investigations have been highly imperfect, and a lot of the

961
00:47:20,444 --> 00:47:23,484
Speaker 3: book is about how flawed some of these investigations were,

962
00:47:24,124 --> 00:47:27,844
Speaker 3: we need this mechanism. It's a crucial check on the presidency.

963
00:47:28,364 --> 00:47:31,284
Speaker 3: And although Donald Trump will be you know, it will

964
00:47:31,284 --> 00:47:35,444
Speaker 3: be go dormant during the next three years, it can

965
00:47:35,484 --> 00:47:37,684
Speaker 3: come back and it needs to come back because otherwise

966
00:47:37,764 --> 00:47:39,964
Speaker 3: we're going to lose a key check on not just

967
00:47:40,044 --> 00:47:44,404
Speaker 3: presidential power, but runaway executive branch power as a whole.

968
00:47:45,484 --> 00:47:47,444
Speaker 1: So, at the end of the day, are you an

969
00:47:47,444 --> 00:47:49,684
Speaker 1: optimist that that will happen or are you a pessimist?

970
00:47:49,724 --> 00:47:51,324
Speaker 3: I tend to be an optimist. I mean, look, I've

971
00:47:51,364 --> 00:47:53,364
Speaker 3: been in media for seven years. I've seen all sorts

972
00:47:53,364 --> 00:47:56,284
Speaker 3: of crazy stuff happen. But I do believe in our institutions.

973
00:47:56,284 --> 00:47:58,804
Speaker 3: I do believe in our laws. I don't think they're perfect,

974
00:47:58,884 --> 00:48:01,524
Speaker 3: but I reject the hyperbolic. You know, I've heard people

975
00:48:01,524 --> 00:48:03,804
Speaker 3: say we'll never have another election. In twenty twenty eight,

976
00:48:03,844 --> 00:48:06,044
Speaker 3: Trump's going to run again. I've always rejected that. I

977
00:48:06,044 --> 00:48:07,764
Speaker 3: don't think that's going to happen. I don't think that's

978
00:48:08,124 --> 00:48:09,764
Speaker 3: I don't think he wants to do that. I do

979
00:48:09,844 --> 00:48:14,684
Speaker 3: believe our laws and our constitution are sturdy enough. They're imperfect,

980
00:48:14,924 --> 00:48:16,804
Speaker 3: but I think they're sturdy enough. They've stood up for

981
00:48:16,804 --> 00:48:20,644
Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty years, and I think if we

982
00:48:20,724 --> 00:48:23,964
Speaker 3: give them thought, they'll continue to stand up.

983
00:48:25,044 --> 00:48:27,884
Speaker 1: I'm very happy to hear that. Thank you so much

984
00:48:28,044 --> 00:48:32,084
Speaker 1: for coming on and sharing your wisdom and your optimism

985
00:48:32,124 --> 00:48:35,124
Speaker 1: with us. Congrats again on the release of your new book,

986
00:48:35,444 --> 00:48:36,684
Speaker 1: When You Come at the King.

987
00:48:36,844 --> 00:48:38,844
Speaker 3: Thanks very much, guys, I appreciate it was great talking

988
00:48:38,844 --> 00:48:39,084
Speaker 3: to you.

989
00:48:45,124 --> 00:48:46,924
Speaker 1: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach

990
00:48:46,964 --> 00:48:50,644
Speaker 1: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot FM.

991
00:48:50,844 --> 00:48:54,364
Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova.

992
00:48:53,644 --> 00:48:56,364
Speaker 2: And by me Nate Silver. The show was a cool

993
00:48:56,404 --> 00:49:00,364
Speaker 2: production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced

994
00:49:00,364 --> 00:49:04,724
Speaker 2: by Isaa Carter. Our associate producer is Sonia gerwit Lydia,

995
00:49:04,844 --> 00:49:07,724
Speaker 2: Jean Kott and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our

996
00:49:07,724 --> 00:49:11,604
Speaker 2: executive producer is Jacob Gold's mixing by Sarah Bruguer.

997
00:49:11,884 --> 00:49:14,124
Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate and review us

998
00:49:14,124 --> 00:49:16,764
Speaker 1: so other people can find us too, But once again,

999
00:49:16,924 --> 00:49:18,724
Speaker 1: only if you like us. We don't want those bad

1000
00:49:18,764 --> 00:49:20,964
Speaker 1: reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.