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Speaker 1: It's that time. Time, time, Luck and load. The Michael

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Speaker 1: Verie Show is on the air. In our next segment,

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Speaker 1: we will talk with a woman named Kathleen Dulaski who's

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Speaker 1: written a book called Who Needs College Anymore? And it

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Speaker 1: is a question increasingly being asked. President Trump making a

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Speaker 1: statement today that Harvard University is a joke and has

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Speaker 1: lost its way. The federal funding amounts that are under

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Speaker 1: impact because of their woke policies currently Harvard University at

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Speaker 1: two point twenty six billion, Cornell University at one billion,

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Speaker 1: Northwestern University at seven hundred ninety million, Brown University at

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Speaker 1: five hundred ten million, Columbia University at four hundred million,

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Speaker 1: Princeton University at two hundred ten million, University of Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: UPEN as it's known, at one hundred and seventy five million.

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Speaker 1: It has been the case for a long time that

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Speaker 1: these institutions have received hundreds of millions, down to dozens

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Speaker 1: of millions of dollars of taxpayer dollars. And they are

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Speaker 1: supposedly elite, very exclusive institutions who are sitting on billions

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Speaker 1: of dollars in endowments. So why on earth, you know,

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Speaker 1: it all comes back again. It all comes back to

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Speaker 1: that poor guy or girl, the single mom who's waiting tables.

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Speaker 1: She's begging her sister to pick her kid up from

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Speaker 1: school at three, and then her mom to take the

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Speaker 1: kid from six, and the next door neighbor let her

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Speaker 1: play over there at eight, and she's just scratching in

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Speaker 1: claw to keep it all together because that's the only

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Speaker 1: shift she can go, that's the best tips. And she's trying,

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Speaker 1: and she's in a little rat hole apartment and doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to be on welfare, and she can't be there

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Speaker 1: for her kid as many hours she'd like to, and

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Speaker 1: yet we're taking money from her, and some of that

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Speaker 1: money is going to institutions that she didn't get to attend.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we'll leave a side that it's going to

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Speaker 1: Ukraine for their wars and toys and and graft and corruption.

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Speaker 1: But then you got you know Joe Bob, he's showing

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Speaker 1: up at the plant. He's working like my dad did,

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Speaker 1: every extra shift he can, sometimes working sixteen eighteen hours

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Speaker 1: at a go. We got folks that work seven days

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Speaker 1: a week. I get emails they're on a twenty one

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Speaker 1: day run and they'll get three days off and then

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Speaker 1: start back up again, or they don't take a day

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Speaker 1: off because they can't afford to. They're just trying to

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Speaker 1: make it. They're trying to pay for everything. They got

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Speaker 1: somebody with a chronic health problem. They're trying to put

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Speaker 1: their kid in a private school at the Catholic church

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Speaker 1: because there's crime in the neighborhood. They've got something that

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Speaker 1: they're having to pay off that they're desperately working their

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Speaker 1: tails off to do. And then we're sending hundreds of

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars to institutions that have billions in an endowment.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, dirty little secret, the professors at

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Speaker 1: these universities don't actually even teach your kids. The kids

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Speaker 1: go to the university and for your four year undergraduate degree,

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Speaker 1: you will have more classes taught by a teaching assistant.

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Speaker 1: And who will that teaching assistant me, Well, I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you it'll be a graduate student from China or India

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Speaker 1: who is in this country on a scholarship and a

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Speaker 1: monthly stipend from the university, and they have to teach

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Speaker 1: classes in order to get their stipend so they can

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Speaker 1: get their graduate, masters and PhD degrees. I have so

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Speaker 1: many friends who went through the program. I'm not mad

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Speaker 1: about it, but what ended up happening was as Indians

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Speaker 1: came in, especially into engineering in the graduate schools, they

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Speaker 1: picked other Indians until they became the faculty members. And

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Speaker 1: now you'll have almost entirely every teaching assistant as an Indian,

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Speaker 1: because well, the American kids don't need it, and they

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Speaker 1: don't get graduate degrees anyway, they just get their undergraduate degree.

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Speaker 1: So your kids, you spend all this money to send

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Speaker 1: them to this university because you didn't go to university,

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Speaker 1: and they're going to go to university and they're going

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Speaker 1: to learn stuff, and they're going to have a ticket

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Speaker 1: to punch to make a lot of money in and

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Speaker 1: they'll have the golden ticket, the golden ticket you saved

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Speaker 1: from the time your child is born. In Texas, it's

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Speaker 1: a five twenty nine. There's all sorts of different programs.

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Speaker 1: I guess the five twenty nine is national, but there's

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Speaker 1: different programs that states offer. And you put aside all

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Speaker 1: this money enough to pay for to pay off your house,

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Speaker 1: enough to provide part of your retirement in many cases,

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Speaker 1: so your kid will have money to go to college

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Speaker 1: because college is going to set your kid up, and

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Speaker 1: everything you do is to set your kid up so

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Speaker 1: your kid won't have to struggle the way you did.

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Speaker 1: And then you send your kid to the school, and

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Speaker 1: there's a very good likelihood they chose to go to

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Speaker 1: that school because the school won the national championship last

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Speaker 1: year or competed for it. And that's crazy, right, I

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Speaker 1: thought this was about education, and yeah, but that's there.

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Speaker 1: It is. And tuition keeps rising, but the quality of

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Speaker 1: instruction doesn't improve by any metric. The quality of instruction

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Speaker 1: doesn't improve, and fewer professors are actually professing any longer.

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Speaker 1: You got teaching assistants who cost very little money teaching

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Speaker 1: the class, many of whom you can't understand because they

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Speaker 1: don't speak any or much English, and that which they

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Speaker 1: do is in some sort of accent that is impossible

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Speaker 1: to understand. But who cares. You're an undergraduate. The university

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Speaker 1: has nothing to do with undergraduate students. Undergraduate students are

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Speaker 1: to come there, pass through. They'll hit you, hand them

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Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. They'll hand you a certificate.

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Speaker 1: You run and show that certificate to show that you

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Speaker 1: qualify to work at a fortune five hundred company because

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Speaker 1: that's what they do. They require you to have a

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Speaker 1: college degree for what reason. Nobody really knows. Now. The

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Speaker 1: CEO of independent companies that are very wealthy, they often

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Speaker 1: don't have a college degree. But the big corporations, the

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Speaker 1: woke institution, this is the funnel, right, We funnel them

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Speaker 1: through here. We teach them how to think in what

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Speaker 1: words to use. These are words we don't use. These

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Speaker 1: are words we do. We do love rap, We don't

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Speaker 1: like a country. Girls are better than boys. Boys have winers.

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Speaker 1: They should be cut off. War is bad, but we

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Speaker 1: should fund it. You know, all these different little things.

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Speaker 1: I guess war isn't bad. Standing up and fighting for

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Speaker 1: the honor of your girl, or against the neighbor who's

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Speaker 1: bullying you, that's bad. War is good because the war machine,

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Speaker 1: and they give a lot to the universities as well.

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Speaker 1: So there's this whole cycle that's going on, and Trump

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Speaker 1: is trying to break it. Harvard University has decided, you

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Speaker 1: know what, will choose not to get federal funds. It's

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Speaker 1: a bluff. Will choose not to get federal funds because

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Speaker 1: it's very important to us that the hamas sympathizers on

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Speaker 1: campus be allowed to call Jews dirty names. And that's

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Speaker 1: what that's about. The whole movement, or the hamas sympathizers

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Speaker 1: on campus. The whole thing there is to show how

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Speaker 1: lefty you can possibly be, which is fine. You wonder

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Speaker 1: how long Jews are going to stand by and allow

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Speaker 1: for this, because eventually it's not just going to be

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Speaker 1: saying nasty things. But the Democrats' top four heroes in

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Speaker 1: America right now, if you think about this, are a

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Speaker 1: murderer named Carmelo, the butcher knife murder who killed the

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Speaker 1: white kid and now has raised a half a million

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Speaker 1: dollars and they lowered his bond, so he's out free.

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Speaker 1: A murderer named Luigi that's the guy with the gun

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Speaker 1: who killed the CEO of United an MS thirteen illegal

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Speaker 1: gang member, and a Palestinian Hamas supporter. That's gonna fare

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Speaker 1: real well in the elections, guys in AOC as your candidate.

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Speaker 1: The Michael Berry Show, Michael Berry Show, let's take a

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Speaker 1: break from politics for a moment. It's not really it's life.

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Speaker 1: Politics should be about life and culture and how we

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Speaker 1: live and the things that matter most to families. I

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Speaker 1: went to college on a full scholarship. I was very

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Speaker 1: proud of that fact. So my parents didn't have to

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Speaker 1: pay a dime. I went to law school on scholarships.

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Speaker 1: Was very proud of that fact. I went to the

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Speaker 1: University of Nottingham and England on a scholarship from the

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Speaker 1: University of Texas. I was very proud of that. And

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Speaker 1: I went to a lot of school. And I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be honest with you, and I know this is

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Speaker 1: a good way to alienate my audience. I loved it.

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Speaker 1: I loved school. The only reason I went and got

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Speaker 1: another law degree, which has no real useful purpose, is

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Speaker 1: to teach. And I wanted to teach. I love accumulating knowledge.

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Speaker 1: I love sharing knowledge. Was it Seneca who said to

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Speaker 1: teach us to learn? I love giving speeches, I love

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Speaker 1: watching documentaries. I love knowledge. I'm a jeopardy nut. It

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Speaker 1: makes me happy. Right. So with that in mind, the

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Speaker 1: academy was created. We were going to take kids from

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Speaker 1: the farms into the city and we were going to

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Speaker 1: teach them the things they would need to know to write,

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Speaker 1: to think, to experiment, science and mathematics and literature and

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Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. And so people like my parents,

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Speaker 1: who didn't go to college. Were delighted that I could

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Speaker 1: go to college. That was exciting, That was a big deal.

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Speaker 1: You bragged. And then there's the where's your kid going

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Speaker 1: to college? And it's the IVY leagues and all that,

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Speaker 1: and then that morphed into whose college has the best

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Speaker 1: football team? So schools like Alabama and Georgia rose to

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Speaker 1: the top where they hadn't been before in the brag factor.

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Speaker 1: And then you start looking at these cases and how

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Speaker 1: much people are spending on college intuition is seven times

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Speaker 1: what it was twenty five years ago, I think is

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Speaker 1: the number. And people are going broke over this, and

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Speaker 1: kids are graduating or not and have no means to

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Speaker 1: pay it back, and so the government is paying for it,

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Speaker 1: so that becomes a huge transfer of wealth. And so

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Speaker 1: all of this college talk, this massive industry in life

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Speaker 1: which is bigger than birth and death and marriage and

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Speaker 1: costs in many cases more than your home. What's the

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Speaker 1: point of it all? So we came across something called

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Speaker 1: who needs college Anymore? Imagining a future where degrees don't matter.

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Speaker 1: The author is Kathleen d'laski or Deloski. Ramon, do you

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Speaker 1: want me to first try Dulaski, and then she corrects

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Speaker 1: me as Delaski, or do you want to do delasky

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Speaker 1: and she corrects me as d'laski Dlaski. Okay, we're going

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Speaker 1: with Dlaski til she corrects us. And I'll be honest.

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Speaker 1: We don't get this excited up. We don't do many guests.

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Speaker 1: You folks know that, but I was really really interested

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Speaker 1: in this guest because I love when people think differently,

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Speaker 1: whether that's the COVID shot or anything else. Kathleen, is

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Speaker 1: it d'laski or dulaski d'laski? Oh, we got it? Okay Polish?

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Speaker 1: I presume the name is yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we've been here a long time, so who knows.

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Speaker 1: Well, it'll be okay if you were Polish. I like Poles.

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Speaker 1: One of my good friends is Polish. Yeah, and the

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Speaker 1: polls behave very admirably during World War Two. The Polish

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Speaker 1: underground and the cracking of Enigma is the greatest story

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Speaker 1: of World War two never told. But I won't bother

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Speaker 1: you with all that, so I read your background. You

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Speaker 1: are an education and workforce designer and a futurist. That's

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Speaker 1: always interesting. I'm not one, but I'm fascinated by people

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Speaker 1: who are You founded the Education Design Lab in twenty

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Speaker 1: thirteen to help Well, we'll get into that, and for

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Speaker 1: a decade you were CEO of this lab, and you're

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Speaker 1: obviously a person who spends a lot of time thinking

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Speaker 1: in the aggregate about the big picture of how we

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Speaker 1: don't believe that that that college is for the purpose

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Speaker 1: of getting a degree, or even as much as learning

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Speaker 1: as developing and growing the old the old Yates line

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Speaker 1: that that education is not filling a bucket but lighting

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Speaker 1: a fire. I am a big believer in the academy

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Speaker 1: as it once existed. But I'm going to turn the

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Speaker 1: show over now to you with a few basic questions.

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Speaker 1: Why have you written this book? What was the goal

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Speaker 1: in asking the question? Who needs college anymore? And then

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Speaker 1: you sort of answer that with imagining a future where

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Speaker 1: degrees don't matter. I'm going to let you have the

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Speaker 1: rest of the floor for the rest of the segment.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you and thanks for having me. I love

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Speaker 2: your story, Michael, It's really it's really compelling about your

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Speaker 2: family and how you know people who learn, who love

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Speaker 2: to learn, should will still have the opportunity to go

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Speaker 2: to college, to go get a four year degree. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's the degree is not going away. But I wrote

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Speaker 2: the book really to try to highlight the fact that

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Speaker 2: that model, the four your degree model, which has basically,

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Speaker 2: you know, overtaken all narratives about how how you get

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Speaker 2: your you know, find your way to the American dream.

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Speaker 2: It's like the only narrative right now. And yet yet

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Speaker 2: the model only serves a minority of American adults. You know,

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Speaker 2: only thirty eight percent of people have a four year degree.

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Speaker 2: So we need to stop treating it as the only

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Speaker 2: aspirational brand, you know, to to get to success, because

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Speaker 2: you know, we see what's happening with the resentment building

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Speaker 2: and the economic divide. You know, some people are calling

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Speaker 2: it the diploma divide. You know, we have other models

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Speaker 2: that show promise, like apprenticeships and like short term certificates

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Speaker 2: and certifications and boot camps, but they can't scale because

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Speaker 2: they don't qualify for the funding and the prestige that

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Speaker 2: you know that right now really only colleges enjoy. And

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Speaker 2: so that that's why I wrote the book. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I have my own personal story with my own children.

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Speaker 2: The model didn't really work for either of them, and

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Speaker 2: so I was kind of radicalized, even though I live

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Speaker 2: in an area where everybody goes to college and you're embarrassed,

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Speaker 2: you know, when you're at a you know, a softball game,

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Speaker 2: and you know you're kind of like under your breast

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Speaker 2: in my kids about going. And so you know that

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Speaker 2: that kind of got me going even in the first

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Speaker 2: place to start this thing called the Education Design Lab,

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Speaker 2: which is actually working with colleges to try to you know,

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Speaker 2: disrupt themselves and reinvent their own models. So we can

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Speaker 2: talk about that.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk first about your story. We've got two minutes

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Speaker 1: left in this segment. So I always like to know

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Speaker 1: where someone's angle is and all this. I feel like Nixon,

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Speaker 1: Nixon going to China. I can say that college doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter because I spent a lot of time in college.

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Speaker 1: I think it's harder if someone didn't, because then there

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Speaker 1: may be defensive about it. What was your story?

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Speaker 2: Well, I am not the right messenger to be able

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Speaker 2: to stand up and say you don't need college, because I,

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Speaker 2: like you, I was lucky enough to you know, go

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Speaker 2: to both have an undergrad and I did a master's

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Speaker 2: degree and I actually, in research in the book went

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Speaker 2: back to my to my ancestor, who my great grandfather

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Speaker 2: time seven, was one of the first graduates of you

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Speaker 2: know that university that's now under attack, but is the

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Speaker 2: first university, Harvard. He was the son of an indentured servant,

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Speaker 2: an immigrant, and he was able to somehow get into

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Speaker 2: Harvard and pulled his family up to a position of

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Speaker 2: prominence in colonial America. This is in sixteen seventy three,

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Speaker 2: in one generation. And so I start this I start

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Speaker 2: the book out there to kind of demonstrate how college

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Speaker 2: kind of took a foothold in the lore of you know,

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Speaker 2: how to succeed in America right from the very beginning.

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Speaker 2: So so you know, my story is that college was

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Speaker 2: always available to me and my forefathers, and yet now

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Speaker 2: I feel like we're in the family like some kids

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Speaker 2: are choosing not to go, including one of my daughters.

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Speaker 2: One wanted to go but you know, had neurodivergent issues

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Speaker 2: and ended up getting through it. But it was a complete,

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Speaker 2: you know, flog and difficult situation. And they, you know,

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Speaker 2: they helped me see that there are other ways to

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Speaker 2: succeed number one, but also that college needs to you know,

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Speaker 2: we need to redesign it to meet the needs of

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Speaker 2: other folks and have different versions, like the degree should

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Speaker 2: just be one version of what colleges offer. Why can't

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Speaker 2: they offer?

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Speaker 1: You are speaking my language. I love that you've undertaken

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Speaker 1: this project because I think that what you're saying is

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Speaker 1: is very visionary. One moment our guest is Kathleen Dlaski.

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Speaker 1: The book is who needs college anymore? Who needs college anymore?

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Speaker 3: The government made money off of it.

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Speaker 2: We didn't get nothing.

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Speaker 1: The hard time the Michael Barry Show, it's a day.

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Speaker 1: I say it's a day. I say it's a day.

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Speaker 1: And I would encourage everyone who is listening to take

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Speaker 1: a step back and ask yourself this question. What should

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Speaker 1: college be If you're going to spend over over one

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars, which is crazy, what should be the

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Speaker 1: result at the end. Many people view it as as

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Speaker 1: I'll have a ticket to punch to get a job.

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Speaker 1: I think that's sad, but okay, and that's because corporations

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Speaker 1: created this. You have to have a degree to go

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Speaker 1: to work here, which was really just a way of saying,

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Speaker 1: I want to pick the white kids, not the black kids,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know how to do that. And since

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Speaker 1: the white kids go to college and the black kids don't.

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Speaker 1: That'd be a good way to separate. Then the black

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Speaker 1: kids went to college and they said, oh, what do

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Speaker 1: we do now? Well, about that time, you had DEI,

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Speaker 1: so it didn't matter. But I honestly think that that

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Speaker 1: was the history behind that. And you folks know that

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Speaker 1: I'm not one to claim very much as racism, but

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Speaker 1: I think that was racism. It was also a way

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Speaker 1: to create a class distinction because richer kids went to

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Speaker 1: college and poorer kids didn't. How do we just get

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Speaker 1: the kids who know which fort to use? Well, will

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Speaker 1: require a college degree? Or should it be an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to learn and you will come out of there and

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Speaker 1: you will be very smart. Well, nobody really believes that's happening.

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Speaker 1: The only people who really have to go to college.

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Speaker 1: Or if you want to be an engineer, a doctor,

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, an architect, someone who requires this certificate. So

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Speaker 1: that's really no different than a plumber and electrician just

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Speaker 1: costs a whole lot more. Or and you have toga parties.

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Speaker 1: But what should be the point of this thing? I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a major part of our economy, and so

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Speaker 1: I would encourage you to open your mind as we

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Speaker 1: Kathleen and I have this conversation and join in yourself.

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Speaker 1: What should be the purpose of all this? Should it

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Speaker 1: just be the buildings that are attached to the football

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Speaker 1: team and basketball team that we root for? Because that

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Speaker 1: seems sort of silly, doesn't it. So Kathleen, let me

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Speaker 1: let me fast forward from home. Who needs college anymore?

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Speaker 1: What is give me the four minute ideal? Kathleen is king,

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Speaker 1: what do you create as a college replacement?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's I don't want to replace college. I want

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Speaker 2: to uh a college an institution to have an umbrella

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Speaker 2: of let's call them products, right, services that they offer

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Speaker 2: a continuum of learners and not just the eighteen year

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Speaker 2: olds who shows up looking for adultification services.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: They need they need that maturation process probably more than anything.

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Speaker 2: They need to learn how to go through the gauntlet

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Speaker 2: to separate back from fiction, how to you know, organize

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Speaker 2: their thoughts, how to get along with people that they

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Speaker 2: might not have known existed. Right, So they need a

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Speaker 2: kind of a boot camp for life and growing up.

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Speaker 2: But then many other kinds. A lot of the people

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Speaker 2: who aren't being served by college are currently are you know,

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Speaker 2: people who are older or people who are single, moms,

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Speaker 2: or they're returning vets, or they're in the neurodivergent spectrum.

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Speaker 2: And you know, college was not designed to serve them,

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Speaker 2: but but it can. Other programs serve them. But those

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Speaker 2: other programs are don't have access to the same funding.

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Speaker 2: And that's what's become you know, kind of very skewed

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Speaker 2: in the system. Right. It's like it's like it makes

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Speaker 2: you realize that it really is an elitist funding model

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Speaker 2: that we need to you know, we need to. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to say take apart because I still want,

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Speaker 2: we still need, you know, people to go all the

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Speaker 2: way through to get a PhD and be be a

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Speaker 2: cancer researchers. You know, I don't want to stop that.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to stop engineers, civil engineers from getting

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Speaker 2: your degree to build bridget We need that. But you know,

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Speaker 2: the sixty two percent who are being left behind, which

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Speaker 2: is most of us, let's face it, most most Americans,

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Speaker 2: they need they need you know, they need college too,

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Speaker 2: Like why aren't there Why do they have to kind

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Speaker 2: of figure out how to work through a maze and

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Speaker 2: end up often trying and failing to do this college thing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, so so I didn't answer your question, which

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Speaker 2: is what you know, what if I were king, what

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Speaker 2: would I do? What? What I advocated in the book

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Speaker 2: is what I call a step ladder approach. And some

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Speaker 2: community colleges in particular are starting to do this, and

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Speaker 2: we're actually working with a number in Texas where they,

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Speaker 2: you know, you have a short stack called a micro

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Speaker 2: pathway where you you know, you get you basically learn

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Speaker 2: the skills through a couple of uh, you know, like

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Speaker 2: a boot camp basically for one job role, right, and

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Speaker 2: then you can go out and get that job role,

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Speaker 2: and then you can stack to the next, you know,

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Speaker 2: the next income level to build your earnings power, you know,

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Speaker 2: often while you're in that job. So it's the idea

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Speaker 2: that you are earning and learning and scaffolding up to

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Speaker 2: along your career path and getting the learning you need

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Speaker 2: along the way. And there's two reasons why why why

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Speaker 2: we're starting to move to this and we have to

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Speaker 2: move to this model for higher education. Number one is

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Speaker 2: people can't afford one hundred thousand dollars, which is the

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Speaker 2: average cost of a college degree these days, four your degree.

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Speaker 2: People can't afford that, right, So there's opting out and

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Speaker 2: they're sitting on the sidelines. The second reason is AI, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, and technology, Like the things that you spend

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Speaker 2: those four years learning are not necessarily useful to the

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Speaker 2: employer when you get out the door and want to

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Speaker 2: you know, want to line up and apply for that job.

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Speaker 2: So we need, you know, we need shorter term learning

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Speaker 2: because you need to be agile, and you need to

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Speaker 2: learn the latest right, the latest software, the latest cyber thing,

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Speaker 2: the latest technology, and your healthcare job. It's changing so fast.

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Speaker 2: The four year model is steeling kind of antique.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just so different. You know, we have in

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Speaker 1: the state of Texas a plumbing crisis or plumber crisis

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Speaker 1: where plumbers are phasing out and nobody's coming in, and

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Speaker 1: it requires certification, it requires time on the job. You know,

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Speaker 1: you go from journeyman and all, you know, from apprentice

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Speaker 1: to journeymen and all this, and we don't have the

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Speaker 1: master plumbers to a lesser degree, but still a problem

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Speaker 1: is true of electricians. And these are things that AI

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Speaker 1: is not going to replace overnight, and so.

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Speaker 2: We've got probably very secure jobs.

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Speaker 1: So what's happening is the guy who started as a

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Speaker 1: plumber made pretty good money and built up a plumbing

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Speaker 1: company with twenty plumbers, and he's making over a million

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Speaker 1: dollars a year and he has no He has a

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Speaker 1: plumbing license, but no college degree. And so he sends

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Speaker 1: his kid to college to get a psychology degree, and

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Speaker 1: he's he's folding shirts at avercrime Me and Fitch, and

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Speaker 1: and our economy is, our needs aren't being met, and

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Speaker 1: that kid's futures not being set very well because God knows,

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Speaker 1: Daddy doesn't want him to get his hands dirty. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's a real problem. Whereas the people who

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Speaker 1: do go for a vocational license, that should be a

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Speaker 1: very different experience. We don't need to go and spend

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Speaker 1: a fortune for fraternities and toga parties when what you

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Speaker 1: really want to do is get a life skill and

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Speaker 1: get to work. And so I think everybody's every journey,

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Speaker 1: I hate the word, but should be different and a

430
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 1: different approach depending on kind of what you're going to do.

431
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by this, this study you have. You have

432
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: really piqued an interest in me in something I think

433
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: our society is getting wrong, and especially a one size

434
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: fits all, because that's that's not the answer to this.

435
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: When did you read who needs College anymore. I want

436
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: when did you write?

437
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,959
Speaker 2: I mean, I just finished it like last summer, and

438
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 2: then you know, it takes like six months for the

439
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 2: publisher to get it put it together.

440
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 3: So it came out in February, okay this year and

441
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,199
Speaker 3: worth noting for those of you who are interested in this,

442
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 3: especially because you have children who are in high school

443
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 3: and you're trying to consider what to do for your

444
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 3: c student who's.

445
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: Not really interested in school per se, but you want

446
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: a good future for them. The website is who Needs

447
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: College Anymore? Dot orgorg Who Needs College Anymore? Dot org?

448
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: And with that we will continue our conversation with Kathleen Dulaski.

449
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: The website is who Needs College Anymore? Dot org. And

450
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: I encourage every family to have this conversation as your

451
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: kids are growing up. Don't just go to college because

452
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: you don't know what else to do. That's no reason

453
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: to join the military, there's no reason to go to college.

454
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: There's no reason to do anything else. You've thought to this,

455
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: what do I want to be when I grew up?

456
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: Who do I want to be when I go up?

457
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: And not just what job or how much money I

458
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: want to make, but what field of study? What passion

459
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: do you have? More coming up here? Yet, people to

460
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: understand giving information is not nicky. Kats Len Delastin is

461
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: our guest. She's the author of Who Needs College Anymore?

462
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 1: Imagining a future where degrees won't matter. Imagine a society

463
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 1: giving the power to confer upon an individual the ticket

464
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: to punch to riches. You would be giving all the

465
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: power to this unique institution. And a lot of people

466
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: think that's what's happening, and it's not. I've known two

467
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: billionaires very closely in my life, neither of whom went

468
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: to college. I've known other billionaires who didn't graduate from college.

469
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: So if riches are your goal, getting a job and

470
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: working within a corporate entity is not always the best

471
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: way to go about that. But there's so much more

472
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: to life than how much you make. It's what you

473
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: do and finding a passion for that. Yeahitely, and how

474
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: has your work been received? Because everybody with the college

475
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: degree thinks you're devaluing their college degree.

476
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. I think at the time that

477
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: I chose to raya, which is pretty much now. It

478
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: is a kind of wake up call moment. I feel

479
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 2: like ever since the recession from twenty ten college attendance.

480
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: College enrollment has been dropping. So community college has lost

481
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 2: a third of their enrollment in the last decade. And

482
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 2: this was even happening well before COVID and then degrees.

483
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 2: I mean, people are not the degree. A number of

484
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 2: people signing up for degrees is dropping, and the number

485
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: of people signing up to do like certificates and other

486
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: form short forms of training is going up. And so

487
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 2: you know, I don't colleges are receiving my message pretty

488
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: well because they know they have to change, and they're

489
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 2: like going right to the chapter that's like how can

490
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: colleges adapt? And they're looking at you know, the models

491
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 2: that I show there are really around. Okay, if you

492
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 2: if you want to show that you still have an

493
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 2: ROI or a return on investment for your students, you

494
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 2: really need to focus more on helping them, you know,

495
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: land them at the front door of their first job,

496
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: because as you just said a few minutes ago, that's

497
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 2: exactly what you know, That's what families are expecting to

498
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: happen when their kid graduates, is is they you know,

499
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: they're going to get a job, and so you know,

500
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: how can we connect those dots better and so I think,

501
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 2: you know, you see a lot of colleges really trying

502
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: to start to work on that, and Texas in particular.

503
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 2: I was just at the Association with all the Community Colleges,

504
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: the annual meeting UH in Nashville, and some Texas colleges

505
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 2: were presenting and they're explaining that, you know, you've got

506
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: you've got a new law in Texas called hb E,

507
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: which which is now UH colleges are being judged and

508
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 2: they're getting funding based upon the outcomes that they deliver,

509
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: and by that they mean what kind of income are

510
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 2: students making after they graduate. That's actually being tracked and

511
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: Texas is the first state to do this, and everybody

512
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: else is watching this. I mean the other states are

513
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: kind of doing versions of that. They're doing the most

514
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: intense version and it's been really interesting to watch.

515
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: That is wow. You know, these are things that I

516
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: don't think are talked about widely. There is so much.

517
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: I have a son who's a junior, so he will

518
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: begin the college application process in the fall, and I've

519
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: told both of my sons I'm in the zone. I

520
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: have a son who's the freshman's University of Texas, and

521
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: I've told them you can do the military, you can

522
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,719
Speaker 1: do vocational school, you can go to college, you can

523
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: take a gap year and travel and work around the

524
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: world as you do it. It's totally up to you.

525
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: And both have thus far chosen college as their route.

526
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: And I think part of that is that's what their

527
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: friends are doing. Is a comfort to that and all that.

528
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: Just like with careers and your life partner choice, I

529
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: think it's important that that you keep an open mind

530
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: and you look at you know, you don't just marry

531
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: the girl who lives next door or was your high

532
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: school sweetheart. That may work. You don't just do the

533
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: job that your dad did. That may work, but you

534
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: know these are these are going to have a big

535
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: impact on your life and your happiness. So be willing

536
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: to look at at least know what all is out there, right,

537
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: and don't be limited to the kids who did bring

538
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: your dad to work day because there's a lot there

539
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: are a lot more careers out there.

540
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I just wanted to mention I want to

541
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: with your son being a University of Texas. So another

542
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: really interesting pilot that I feature in the book is

543
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: University of Texas. The whole system is starting to incorporate

544
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: like industry certifications into the degrees. And they're again, they're

545
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: doing it. You're doing the largest pilot in the country

546
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 2: right now and everybody's watching it. And so you're you know,

547
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: they're getting like a Google It certificate or a cybersecurity certificate.

548
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: You can get those out going to college. But at

549
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: least the college is just saying, wow, we need to

550
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: add this value. Yes, where you know, learners can see

551
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: the connection between you know, what Google is going to

552
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: be asking for in the job interview and what we're

553
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 2: delivering in the classroom. So they're actually baking in the

554
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 2: certificates that have been created by companies, which I think

555
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: is a great step in the right.

556
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: Let's talk about why they didn't do it. It wasn't that

557
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: they lacked the expertise, or the space, or or the

558
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: students with the interest in it. It was beneath the university.

559
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: We are the academy, we are the Ivory Tower. We

560
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: don't get down into certificates. And I think there is

561
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: now a sort of hey, guys, there's got to be

562
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: some value to this. I'm spending all this money and

563
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: I need to be able to have certificates when we

564
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: get out of this to perform tasks, especially because you

565
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: mentioned Google. Google goes out of their way to hire

566
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: young people who did not go to college, and I

567
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: think that's a wake up call to the universities.

568
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, they have been good about them.

569
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: What is what is the takeaway that people have the

570
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: website is who needs college anymore? Dot org to your

571
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: theories and ideas that you get the most. What is

572
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: the thing that someone says, I hadn't thought about that.

573
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, everybody's heard about apprenticeships and

574
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: boot camps, but I don't think people realize that we

575
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: are suppressing those models by the way that we put

576
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: all of our all of our funding eggs in the

577
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 2: in the in the you know sort of college and

578
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 2: college tuition basket, you know, through federal financial aid. You know,

579
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: there's like fifty to one is the expenditures on college,

580
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: you know, nationally versus supporting college versus apprenticeships. So, you know,

581
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,239
Speaker 2: I don't want to suggest to your listeners that they

582
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: could just walk out their kid to walk out and

583
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: get a cool apprenticeship, because apprenticeships are are you know,

584
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: have long been available areas light construction, electrician, HVAC. But

585
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: they're now becoming available in what you might call the

586
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: white collar jobs, but not at scale yet. And so

587
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: I don't want to suggest that these are like ready

588
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: to go models. We need to push for them, and

589
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 2: states are actually taking the lead right now on that.

590
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: And so you can your listeners could go to apprenticeship

591
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 2: dot gov and see, you know, where what apprenticeships are available,

592
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: because I mean, that's a great model. Yes, and colleges

593
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: are now even trying to to bring them in, you know,

594
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: to kind of become the the you know, the facilitators

595
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: for apprenticeships, and that's cool. You'll see more of that,

596
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 2: but you know, probably not why your kids are in school.

597
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: So I don't want to suggest that like these other

598
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 2: models are like easily available to kids right now. They're not,

599
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: but we need to make them.

600
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: So I have I'm fortunate to have contacts and people

601
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: that I could reach out to, but I have had

602
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: my kids doing what I would consider apprenticeships, internships, whatever

603
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: you want to call it, and I break down the

604
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: formal barriers and I say, I just want them to

605
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: hang out with you for some period of time a week,

606
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: a month, and literally watch you take phone calls. Watch

607
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: how you spend your day, watch how you spend your hours,

608
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: watch who you go to lunch with, and you learn

609
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: so much. I learned at the foot of mentors that

610
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: I had who were much older than me, who were

611
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: willing to invest in me. And I'm a big believer

612
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: in that model. I want to say, because I'm up

613
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 1: against the clock. You also mentioned self instruction using YouTube.

614
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: I think of how many kids are doing homeschooling now,

615
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: and they're doing it all online, and you're always told

616
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: you have to go to school to be socialized. These

617
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: kids are smart, they're well rounded. I'm thoroughly impressed by them.

618
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: I love what you're doing. Kathleen Dlaski, let's have you

619
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: on again, the author of Who Needs College Anymore? The

620
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: website is who Needs College Anymore dot org. Thank you

621
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: for your time.

622
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: Thank you, Michael