WEBVTT - #276 Jason Flom with Charles McCrory 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:05.320 In nineteen eighty five, Charles and Julie McCrory were having 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.520 marital trouble and seeing a counselor while amicably sharing both 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:10.560 the care of their three year old boy, Chad, and 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.480 occasionally the same bed. On May thirtieth, nineteen eighty five, 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:17.279 Charles left Julie's house around ten to fifteen pm and 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:20.239 made a phone call in the pre cell phone era. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.040 This corroborated that he had arrived at his apartment the 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:27.360 following morning. Charles's parents were expecting Julie to drop off 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:29.680 Chad and began to worry when she did not show. 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:34.320 After several unanswered calls from Charles and his parents, Charles's 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.400 father was the first to discover Julie's body just inside 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.360 her front door. It was determined that she had died 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.080 of blunt force head trauma sometime in the early hours 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:45.920 of the morning. A red bandana was found near the body, 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:47.880 and a clump of hairs were found in her hand 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:51.760 that did not belong to her or Charles. Besides conflicting 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:54.200 and dubious reports of a car that looked like Charles's 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.480 at Julie's house that morning, no evidence connected him to 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:01.440 the crime. Despite a similar incident within a month committed 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.040 by a man known to wear red bandanas, the police 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:07.880 maintained their focus on Charles. Since the district attorney was 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:12.360 reluctant to charge Charles, Julie's family hired a private prosecutor 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.920 team who sought the help of notorious junk science dentist 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:19.880 Dick Suveran. Suveran testified that some of Julie's wounds were 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.360 not only bitemarks, but that they were made by Charles 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.560 at the time of death, effectively sealing his fate. Suveran 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.960 has since recanted that testimony, including the assertion that the 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:34.000 wounds were even bite marks at all. Yet, somehow Charles 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:37.080 is still serving a life sentence in an Alabama prison. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:53.400 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. You know, 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.360 when listeners of our show asked me, what are some 0:01:56.440 --> 0:02:00.080 of the most disturbing cases I've ever heard of? I 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.960 will list off Vincent Simmons, Richard Glossip, Pedro Renoso. I mean, 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.280 there's so many others I could mention, But before we 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.760 even start today, I think Charles McCrory has to be 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:16.960 added to that horrifying list. Joining us Besides the man himself. 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.440 We have his attorneys first from the Southern Center for 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.640 Human Rights, Mark Louden Brown, Mark, welcome to Wronful Conviction. 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.320 Thank you very much for having me and a voice 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:31.079 you'll all recognize, I'm sure, Chris Fabricant. Chris is the 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.880 strategic Litigation director at the Innocence Project, the author of 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:37.120 the fantastic book You've heard me talk about it before, 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:41.000 Junk Science and the American criminal justice system. And he's 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.519 also a frequent guest on the show and was featured 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:48.560 on our Junk Science podcast hosted by Josh Dubin where 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.919 he talked about bite mark analysis, which was the pivotal 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.280 thing in this case. And so Chris, welcome back to 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:55.040 Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:56.040 It's great to be back. 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:57.560 Jason, thanks for having us. 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.600 And now calling in from an Alabama prison where he's 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.200 been locked up for I hate I even have to 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:08.480 say this for over thirty seven years. Charles McCrory, thank 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:09.359 you for joining us. 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:11.720 Well, thank you, I appreciate you having me. 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:14.960 Well, we're happy to have you here despite the reason 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.400 why you're here, or more to the point where you 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.840 are as you call us today, and that reason is 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:25.440 bitemark analysis. Which is a proven junk science. It fails 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.880 that not only reliably concluding who made a bite mark, 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.600 but also at reliably identifying wounds as bite marks at all, 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:36.320 especially because these wounds are found on skin and the 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.600 medium itself is elastic and usually changing over time as 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:46.240 it heals or decomposes or grows. And then some Charlottan 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:50.400 comes into court claiming that they can match a suspects 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:54.160 teeth to usually a photograph of an injury, and they 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.880 say they can do this to the exclusion of every 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.960 other set of teeth on the planet. It's just fuck 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.280 and bananas. But it's only recently that lawyers like Chris 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:05.960 and Mark have been battling these junk science experts in 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:10.560 post conviction, because at the time of conviction, everybody bought 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:15.440 into these lies. And Chris, I've been quoting your book 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:17.560 left and right, And of course the book I'm talking 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.800 about is junk science and the American criminal justice system. 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.839 But what are some of the other common threads between 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.360 these wrongful convictions that are based on junk science and 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:27.320 bite mark analysis? 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.799 In particular, what I've seen in all of these cases. 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:32.440 I feel like I've been involved in all the bite 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.680 mark cases over the last ten years, is that I 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:40.120 have never seen an effective cross examination of a bitemark 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.640 expert a trial, and all the transcripts that I've read, 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.320 I've never even seen the question, you know, even the 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:47.560 most basic one. You know, you think about when an 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.839 injury is inflicted, usually during the crime itself, nobody was there. 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.000 Nobody knows the position that the perpetrator or the victim 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.840 was in at that time. But we know one thing 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:02.280 is that it's not not on a mortuary slab where 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.440 the photographs were taken of this injury. And we know 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.440 that the injury has changed, often quite dramatically as a 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:12.839 result of decomposition of the body, and they continued decomposition, 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.600 So you may match quote unquote a bitemark quote unquote 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.520 one day and not the next. It might be one 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.240 hour and not the next hour, right, because skin is 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:26.280 changing all the time, particularly with the deceased victim. So 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.839 you never see that type of cross examination and you 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:30.479 never see like, how is it that you know that 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:32.599 this is a bitemark? What is it about being a 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.800 dentist that makes you an expert in diagnosing an injury 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:36.440 as a bite mark? 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:36.720 Right? 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.920 What the proximity to teeth nonsense, right, So you never 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:42.839 see those. And I think that just as a general 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.720 matter on junk science convictions broadly speaking, is that it's 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.279 almost impossible to cross examine your way out of a 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:52.520 wrongful conviction with junk science. Once the judge lets it in, 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:55.159 you got two strikes against you anyway, you know, And 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:59.600 I'm not sure Johnny cochrane could have saved Charles McCrory 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:02.479 once Dick subern gets on the stand and you know, 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:05.560 spouts these invented credentials, right the American Board of Friends 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.440 of go Toontology. That's what I wrote about this in 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.279 the book. It's just an invented organization. Never tested any 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.560 of their members on their abilities to actually match bike 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:15.880 marks or even diagnose them. They just gave each other 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:20.239 board certifications to bring into court and Wougers and places 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.960 like andlus Alabama, and they led to a lot of 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.719 wrongful convictions, including at least three others by Dick Suberan. 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.320 And we'll go further into how this junk science applies 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.719 to Charles's case in just a bit, but first I'd 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.400 like to go back before all of this happened. Tell 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:40.520 us Charles about your life growing up. Were you born 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:41.440 in Alabama? 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.480 I was born actually in the Panhandle of Florida, and 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:46.719 lived in Mobile a couple of years when I was 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:48.800 in like first to second grade, But anyway, we moved 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.279 and Bluja at the beginning of my third grade year 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.479 and grew up there and graduated and Lujah High School. 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.680 Went to junior college there at Lurley Wallace for a 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:02.120 year or so, and then I transferred to MacArthur Tech 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.360 College and Op which is just fifteen miles or so away, 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:09.200 and I finished a associate degree in computer science. A 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.160 few months later. They started working for the junior college 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:14.280 that I had been a student and that previously, and 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:16.640 set up and then later ran the computer center there. 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.400 They didn't really have one when I started there. You know, 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.000 this is back in seventy nine, so we're in a 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.640 very early period as far as computers were concerned. And 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:28.360 worked there for five years, and then had gone over 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:30.840 to the Power Company album an Electric co op it 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.000 was called in it's now Power South. So pretty much 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.360 far a living, That's all I'd really ever done full 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.200 of time was computer work. 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:40.680 So okay, you were working in the field that has 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.520 become central to all that we do, so plenty of 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.280 potential in your life. And I understand you were also 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:50.000 a volunteer EMT the Rescue Squad as it was called 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:51.520 in Andalusia, Alabama. 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:55.400 Yeah, the Rescue Squad was an all volunteer organizations about 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.280 thirty men that provided damas and rescue for that area. 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:00.520 You know, we wore work, to. 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:04.680 Say the least, Yes, saving Lise kind of the freaking 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:06.400 opposite of being a murderer, right. 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:08.480 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.240 Yeah. And of course during this rise in your career, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.880 both professional and in the volunteer space, you had married 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.560 your high school sweetheart Julie Bonds in nineteen eighty had 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:22.440 a great job fulfilling community service, and had your son, 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.840 Chad in nineteen eighty two, through which you and Julie 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.280 shared a bond that could not be broken even if 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:30.680 your marriage was going through a rough patch. 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.520 Right, and it was, you know, the look back, it 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:36.920 was just a lot of poor decisions on probably both 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:40.959 of our part, but certainly on mind and we kind 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:42.880 of grew apart, I guess, you know. I say we 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.520 had we had a good relationship, very very amicable to 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.040 say the least. We were together pretty much every day 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.760 even during the time that we later separated and I 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.120 had an apartment across town, we were still very involved 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:55.920 with course with our son as well as you know, 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.680 mutual friends and things like that, and we were together 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.520 constantly even though we were we were separated and trying 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.319 to work out marritder issues and so forth. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.240 Yeah, and it seems that things may have worked out 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.079 in your marriage had all of this tragic series of 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:12.920 events not come to pass. The night before Julie died, 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.880 you two had actually spent the evening together correct. 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:18.200 That night, I'd been over there. We had actually been 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:22.120 to see a marriage counselor, had had an affair before 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.959 that for several months prior to that, and it had 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.760 ended it although I was still talking to the lady 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.280 for a while there, and anyway, Julie and I were 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:33.520 trying to work through those things, and so we had 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.560 actually had an interview with it marriage counselor that night, 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.679 if and then we had actually met back over at 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:40.720 the house later and stayed at the house for I 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.280 guess a couple of hours or so, and left around 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:46.240 ten fifteen, ten thirty, somewhere in that range. 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.400 And this affair that you mentioned, the woman you're referring 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:52.280 to is Gloria Wiggins. So at least from trial testimony 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.720 said that you had called her on the phone from 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:58.040 your apartment. I remember this is the era before cell phone, 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:02.480 so this is corroborative evidence that you were actually at 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:03.120 the apartment. 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:05.880 Yeah, at that phone call. I'm at the apartment when 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:07.360 I made the call. And then, you know, I just 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:09.600 go to sleep, and the next morning I get up 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.320 at whatever time, six thirty six forty five, had to 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:14.160 be at work at seven thirty. 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:17.560 Okay, So this is the morning of May thirty first, 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.560 nineteen eighty five, and you were having what you thought 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.720 was going to be a normal day, and as per usual, 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.560 your parents were waiting for Julie to drop off Chad 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:26.959 at their house on her way to. 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:31.240 Work right usually around eighties, and so there was times 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.920 when she'd bring me breakfast her, you know, or whatever. 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:36.440 And so that morning I had called her about that 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.000 and picking up something on her way and didn't get 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:40.920 an answer, and turn around call right back. I figured 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.640 I'd just dial the wrong number or something. Still didn't 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.719 get answer, and even then it didn't particularly alarm it. 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.000 You know, you just think, okay, she left for work, 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:50.880 a little earlier something I really thought a little of it, 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.040 and then later on it was I believe after eight 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:57.640 I called my mom's house and she hadn't got there yet. 0:10:57.679 --> 0:10:59.680 And my mom, of course, if once something like that 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:01.960 had she just starts worrying. So, you know, I called 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.040 the house a couple more times and get no answer, 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.600 and so eventually I called her workplace. They had not 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.640 seen her either, and about that time, you know, my 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:12.880 mom was like, so he Dad's going to check on. 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:14.760 I said, okay, okay, I'll go there and just you know, 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:16.840 kind of like we're leaving, you know, fears, so to speak. 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:20.440 And so I leave work, go toward the house, and 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.040 many of the rescue squad members we had two way 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.000 radios in our personal vehicles, and so as I'm going 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.760 to the house, I hear them on the radio call 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:33.160 about a namas going to beside Charles McCrory's house or 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.960 near Charles mccrary's house. And even then, you know, my 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.160 thought was maybe a neighbor in trouble or somebody outside, 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:40.840 or I call and tell him, you know, I look, 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.280 I'm on my way over there anyway, And when I 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.040 get there, my dad's outside and he's just you know, 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:50.000 he's upset, and said, something's wrong with Julie. You know, 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.760 where is she? And he just kind of like falling 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:54.960 towards the house. I said, where's Chad, and he said, 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.480 I've already got Chad. He's at the neighbors. He had 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.920 he had already been in the house and founder the 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:03.000 front door was a jar when he got there. 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.000 So your father was the first to see this horrible 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.720 crime scene before whisking away your three year old boy, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:12.560 who was thankfully unharmed. It's the only silver lining in 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:14.760 this whole thing. And as you mentioned, he had taken 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.720 him to the neighbors. Julie, on the other hand, was 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:23.239 not so fortunate. She had been beaten to death. Rigormortis 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.600 typically sets in about three to six hours after death, 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.319 and by the time investigators arrived on scene around nine am, 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.480 rigor mortis had not yet set in, so the murder 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:35.439 must have occurred sometime between three and six am. Well, 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.000 you hadn't seen her since about ten to fifteen pm, 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.679 despite conflicting and dubious reports of a car that looked 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:47.559 like yours having been allegedly seen at the house during 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.000 those hours. And we're going to get to that in 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.360 a bit, but first I want to talk about the 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.840 crime scene itself. Now, this was a terribly violent struggle. 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.199 A stocking had been tied to her right wrist. Hair 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:01.679 was found at her left hand, hair that must have 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.440 logically belonged to the person but to whom she was 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.880 fighting for her very life. There was also a red 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.760 bandana found near the body. Now, the fire poker from 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.400 the fireplace appeared to be missing and was never found again. 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:17.360 From the autopsy, it appears that she was struck four 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.960 times in the back of the head, with one wound 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.360 to the side of the head blunt trauma's the left 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.520 part of her skull, eleven puncture wounds to the left breast, 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.160 fractures on both mandibles, bruises on her face and ribs, 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:30.920 and two bruises that may or may not have been 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:34.760 bite marks on her right shoulder. So this is your wife, 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.960 the mother of your son, and now you've come upon 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:42.280 this unbelievably bloody and brutal crime scene. 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:44.800 When you walk in and see that, you just mean, 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.880 you don't know, you just don't know what sits to do. 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:50.040 I mean, you don't know what to think. It's so 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:54.200 shocking that there's really no standard response for it. You know, 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.200 after I had saying that Julie was dead, and then 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:01.240 the risky score got there right after that. And of course, 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.079 you know, I knew all the guys on the squad, 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.000 they were all friends of mine, and they were you know, 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.040 wanting to see At that point, the police had not 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:12.040 arrived or anything. And so as we do that, I 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.720 come out and I go across the street to Chad 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:20.040 and I remember I remember holding him and just I mean, really, 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:21.880 the thought that come to mine is, my god, what 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.920 is happening. I remember him kind of pushing back a 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:26.880 little bit. I guess I was squeezing him too tight 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.800 or something. But and then in the coming days, you know, 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.680 he would ask for and we'd try to answer him 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:33.640 as best you can. 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:54.760 This is an incredibly brutal crime and the perpetrator undoubtedly 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.680 would have been very bloody. And there was only lads 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.000 to a been about four hours passed between the last 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.200 time that mister McCrory he saw the victim in this case, 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:07.320 and when he was first questioned by police at that time, 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:09.960 they turned over all of his clothes, they searched the 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:13.880 intertor's car, they searched his house, They found no trace 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:18.800 of blood on anything. Then they examined the hares that 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:23.800 were clutched in the victim's hand. Those hairs were not 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:27.240 from the victim, and they were not from Charles McCrory. 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.160 In other words, they were from a third person. We 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.240 still don't know whose hairs those were. There was also 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.320 a red bandana found near the victim's body. There was 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:42.200 a construction worker that worked next door to the victim's 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.000 house was known to wear a red bandana. There was 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:47.920 an open window on that side of the house, the 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.880 same side as the construction site, that had a fresh 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:55.360 bootprint outside that window. The police took an impression of 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.560 that bootprint, but then never compared it to anything or anybody, 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:02.040 and never dusted the the window sill that was open 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.800 for fingerprints. But we know that a man who worked 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.280 at that construction site named Ainsworth was known to wear 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.000 a red bandana. And we know that a few weeks 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.200 after this murder, he committed a home invasion rape and 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.000 served twenty years in prison for that crime. Was never 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.520 investigated as a suspect in this case. Then we also 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:26.760 know that mister McCrory had been entirely cooperative with the 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:32.240 prosecution from beginning to end, had voluntarily supplied samples of 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:37.600 his hair, his DNA, his body, all of which was exculpatory, 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:42.520 nothing to point to mister McCrory's guilt. The only physical 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.360 evidence was concocted, and we'll talk about the bite marks 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.960 in a second. The only other evidence was that neighbor 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:54.200 across the street who claimed that around four o'clock in 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:56.640 the morning, his nineteen year old kid decides to get 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.160 up and check on the garden, but he wasn't sure 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.560 of the date, was sure of the truck, but he's 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.960 thought that on the date in question that he had 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.320 seen a truck similar to mister McCrory's. 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:15.240 And despite this extremely dubious teenage middle of the night 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.840 gardening scenario, we also found out later that he and 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.960 later his grandfather not only exaggerated their vantage point, but 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.720 also several other neighbors with much more credible recollections reported 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.359 only Julie's car in the driveway on the date and 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:29.240 time in question. 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.520 That's the only evidence that they had apart from this 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:33.280 bite mark. 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.440 And the bite mark. Even their trial expert Dick Suveran, 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:40.800 years later admitted that he wasn't even sure if it 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.879 even was a bitemark at all. But even back in 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.439 nineteen eighty five, other than the refuted recollection of this 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.400 teenage middle of the night gardener and his grandfather, all 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.159 other evidence pointed away from Charles. But tunnel Vision had 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.640 already said in and some say that it came back 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.440 to something Charles had said at the crime scene and 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.440 what later the prosecutor tried to use against him a trial. 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:07.520 It was when at the scene, looking at the body 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.159 with the other rescue squad guys on police and seeing 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.280 the gash on the back of her head, Charles said 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.760 something to the effect of do you think it was 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:18.440 the licks to her head? Is that what killed her? 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.760 So they just totally ignored the clump of hair in 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.840 her hand, the red bandana, any alternative suspects, the lack 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.520 of blood on anything that Charles owned, and started turning 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:34.600 their focus on him anyway, on Charles, do you remember 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:35.440 when that happened? 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:37.760 I do know there was a time when the fielding 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.840 is almost like the atmosphere changed. You could just feel 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.120 it in the air, And in fact, I believe later Saturday, 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:46.760 I told my mom that looked you know, they're turning 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.280 this on me. They're looking at me. And then it 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:52.240 was on Saturday night. The mayor of Andalusia was a 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.680 man named Chalwmers, Brian. He was a longtime family friend 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:57.359 of ours. He was a deacon in our church and 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.400 I had known Chalmers a long time. He was also 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.280 one of the charge members of the resk You squad, 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:03.480 so I knew him through that. And he called me 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:04.800 and said, look, I want to talk to you. So 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.040 we talked on Saturday night for a good while and 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.360 Chalmers told me then he said, you know they think 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.600 you did this. He told me, say, I don't believe that, 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.520 he said, But I'm the mayor. I can't get involved 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.320 in this, you know, I've got to let the police 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:19.000 do their work. 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:23.360 Wow. So, okay, if you're at home listening to this 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:27.640 insane story right now and thinking, well, okay, but you're 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:32.160 somehow safe, You're somehow insulated from the possibility of being 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:37.199 the victim of a wrongful conviction. Are you friends with 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:41.680 the mayor? Because even a friendship like that couldn't save Charles, 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:46.520 which shows us, in very stark terms that none of 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:50.600 us are safe. So just after Julie's funeral. On that Monday, 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.960 they brought you in for a more accusatory interview that 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.480 ended up in your arrest. Did they try to extract 0:19:57.480 --> 0:19:59.240 a confession, as we so often see. 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.640 Oh yes, as we were walking over to the county 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.200 jails when one of them said, you know we can 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:06.480 help you on this. And you got a long record 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.359 of community service, you come from a good family. You know, 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:12.000 all these kinds of positive things about my life that 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.639 they seem to soon forget. But they say, you know, 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:16.560 we can do a deal here where you know, we'll 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:18.359 talk to the DA and see if we can't. You know, 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.160 I think we can do ten years at that time 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:22.679 manslaughter without a weapon. I believe it was called for 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:24.760 like ten years is the max. And said, you know 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.320 you'd be home in two or three years for Chad 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:29.920 even gets in school. Good. You know you'd already be home. 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.639 So I'm not pleading guilty to something I didn't do. 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:34.840 And that kind of ended that discussion. 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:38.400 And oddly enough, the Covenant County DA Grady Lanier, had 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.399 no plans on indicting you none. The case against you 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.119 was just too weak. A false confession would have definitely 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.639 changed his tune. But you didn't crumble. This is why 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:53.840 Julie's family, on this bizarre Alabama law, was able to 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:57.960