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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty five, Charles and Julie McCrory were having

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Speaker 1: marital trouble and seeing a counselor while amicably sharing both

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Speaker 1: the care of their three year old boy, Chad, and

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Speaker 1: occasionally the same bed. On May thirtieth, nineteen eighty five,

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Speaker 1: Charles left Julie's house around ten to fifteen pm and

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Speaker 1: made a phone call in the pre cell phone era.

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Speaker 1: This corroborated that he had arrived at his apartment the

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Speaker 1: following morning. Charles's parents were expecting Julie to drop off

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Speaker 1: Chad and began to worry when she did not show.

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Speaker 1: After several unanswered calls from Charles and his parents, Charles's

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Speaker 1: father was the first to discover Julie's body just inside

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Speaker 1: her front door. It was determined that she had died

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Speaker 1: of blunt force head trauma sometime in the early hours

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Speaker 1: of the morning. A red bandana was found near the body,

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Speaker 1: and a clump of hairs were found in her hand

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Speaker 1: that did not belong to her or Charles. Besides conflicting

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Speaker 1: and dubious reports of a car that looked like Charles's

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Speaker 1: at Julie's house that morning, no evidence connected him to

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Speaker 1: the crime. Despite a similar incident within a month committed

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Speaker 1: by a man known to wear red bandanas, the police

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Speaker 1: maintained their focus on Charles. Since the district attorney was

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Speaker 1: reluctant to charge Charles, Julie's family hired a private prosecutor

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Speaker 1: team who sought the help of notorious junk science dentist

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Speaker 1: Dick Suveran. Suveran testified that some of Julie's wounds were

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Speaker 1: not only bitemarks, but that they were made by Charles

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Speaker 1: at the time of death, effectively sealing his fate. Suveran

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Speaker 1: has since recanted that testimony, including the assertion that the

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Speaker 1: wounds were even bite marks at all. Yet, somehow Charles

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Speaker 1: is still serving a life sentence in an Alabama prison.

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Speaker 1: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. You know,

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Speaker 1: when listeners of our show asked me, what are some

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Speaker 1: of the most disturbing cases I've ever heard of? I

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Speaker 1: will list off Vincent Simmons, Richard Glossip, Pedro Renoso. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's so many others I could mention, But before we

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Speaker 1: even start today, I think Charles McCrory has to be

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Speaker 1: added to that horrifying list. Joining us Besides the man himself.

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Speaker 1: We have his attorneys first from the Southern Center for

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Speaker 1: Human Rights, Mark Louden Brown, Mark, welcome to Wronful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having me and a voice

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Speaker 1: you'll all recognize, I'm sure, Chris Fabricant. Chris is the

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Speaker 1: strategic Litigation director at the Innocence Project, the author of

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Speaker 1: the fantastic book You've heard me talk about it before,

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Speaker 1: Junk Science and the American criminal justice system. And he's

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Speaker 1: also a frequent guest on the show and was featured

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Speaker 1: on our Junk Science podcast hosted by Josh Dubin where

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Speaker 1: he talked about bite mark analysis, which was the pivotal

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Speaker 1: thing in this case. And so Chris, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: It's great to be back.

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Speaker 3: Jason, thanks for having us.

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Speaker 1: And now calling in from an Alabama prison where he's

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Speaker 1: been locked up for I hate I even have to

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Speaker 1: say this for over thirty seven years. Charles McCrory, thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining us.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you, I appreciate you having me.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're happy to have you here despite the reason

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Speaker 1: why you're here, or more to the point where you

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Speaker 1: are as you call us today, and that reason is

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Speaker 1: bitemark analysis. Which is a proven junk science. It fails

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Speaker 1: that not only reliably concluding who made a bite mark,

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Speaker 1: but also at reliably identifying wounds as bite marks at all,

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Speaker 1: especially because these wounds are found on skin and the

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Speaker 1: medium itself is elastic and usually changing over time as

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Speaker 1: it heals or decomposes or grows. And then some Charlottan

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Speaker 1: comes into court claiming that they can match a suspects

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Speaker 1: teeth to usually a photograph of an injury, and they

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Speaker 1: say they can do this to the exclusion of every

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Speaker 1: other set of teeth on the planet. It's just fuck

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Speaker 1: and bananas. But it's only recently that lawyers like Chris

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Speaker 1: and Mark have been battling these junk science experts in

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Speaker 1: post conviction, because at the time of conviction, everybody bought

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Speaker 1: into these lies. And Chris, I've been quoting your book

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Speaker 1: left and right, And of course the book I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about is junk science and the American criminal justice system.

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Speaker 1: But what are some of the other common threads between

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Speaker 1: these wrongful convictions that are based on junk science and

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Speaker 1: bite mark analysis?

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Speaker 3: In particular, what I've seen in all of these cases.

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Speaker 3: I feel like I've been involved in all the bite

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Speaker 3: mark cases over the last ten years, is that I

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Speaker 3: have never seen an effective cross examination of a bitemark

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Speaker 3: expert a trial, and all the transcripts that I've read,

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Speaker 3: I've never even seen the question, you know, even the

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Speaker 3: most basic one. You know, you think about when an

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Speaker 3: injury is inflicted, usually during the crime itself, nobody was there.

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Speaker 3: Nobody knows the position that the perpetrator or the victim

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Speaker 3: was in at that time. But we know one thing

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Speaker 3: is that it's not not on a mortuary slab where

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Speaker 3: the photographs were taken of this injury. And we know

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Speaker 3: that the injury has changed, often quite dramatically as a

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Speaker 3: result of decomposition of the body, and they continued decomposition,

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Speaker 3: So you may match quote unquote a bitemark quote unquote

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Speaker 3: one day and not the next. It might be one

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Speaker 3: hour and not the next hour, right, because skin is

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Speaker 3: changing all the time, particularly with the deceased victim. So

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Speaker 3: you never see that type of cross examination and you

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Speaker 3: never see like, how is it that you know that

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Speaker 3: this is a bitemark? What is it about being a

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Speaker 3: dentist that makes you an expert in diagnosing an injury

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Speaker 3: as a bite mark?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: What the proximity to teeth nonsense, right, So you never

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Speaker 3: see those. And I think that just as a general

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Speaker 3: matter on junk science convictions broadly speaking, is that it's

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Speaker 3: almost impossible to cross examine your way out of a

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Speaker 3: wrongful conviction with junk science. Once the judge lets it in,

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Speaker 3: you got two strikes against you anyway, you know, And

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure Johnny cochrane could have saved Charles McCrory

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Speaker 3: once Dick subern gets on the stand and you know,

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Speaker 3: spouts these invented credentials, right the American Board of Friends

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Speaker 3: of go Toontology. That's what I wrote about this in

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Speaker 3: the book. It's just an invented organization. Never tested any

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Speaker 3: of their members on their abilities to actually match bike

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Speaker 3: marks or even diagnose them. They just gave each other

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Speaker 3: board certifications to bring into court and Wougers and places

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Speaker 3: like andlus Alabama, and they led to a lot of

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Speaker 3: wrongful convictions, including at least three others by Dick Suberan.

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Speaker 1: And we'll go further into how this junk science applies

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Speaker 1: to Charles's case in just a bit, but first I'd

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Speaker 1: like to go back before all of this happened. Tell

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Speaker 1: us Charles about your life growing up. Were you born

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Speaker 1: in Alabama?

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Speaker 4: I was born actually in the Panhandle of Florida, and

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Speaker 4: lived in Mobile a couple of years when I was

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Speaker 4: in like first to second grade, But anyway, we moved

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Speaker 4: and Bluja at the beginning of my third grade year

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Speaker 4: and grew up there and graduated and Lujah High School.

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Speaker 4: Went to junior college there at Lurley Wallace for a

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Speaker 4: year or so, and then I transferred to MacArthur Tech

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Speaker 4: College and Op which is just fifteen miles or so away,

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Speaker 4: and I finished a associate degree in computer science. A

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Speaker 4: few months later. They started working for the junior college

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Speaker 4: that I had been a student and that previously, and

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Speaker 4: set up and then later ran the computer center there.

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Speaker 4: They didn't really have one when I started there. You know,

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Speaker 4: this is back in seventy nine, so we're in a

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Speaker 4: very early period as far as computers were concerned. And

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Speaker 4: worked there for five years, and then had gone over

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Speaker 4: to the Power Company album an Electric co op it

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Speaker 4: was called in it's now Power South. So pretty much

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Speaker 4: far a living, That's all I'd really ever done full

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Speaker 4: of time was computer work.

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Speaker 1: So okay, you were working in the field that has

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Speaker 1: become central to all that we do, so plenty of

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Speaker 1: potential in your life. And I understand you were also

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Speaker 1: a volunteer EMT the Rescue Squad as it was called

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Speaker 1: in Andalusia, Alabama.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the Rescue Squad was an all volunteer organizations about

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Speaker 4: thirty men that provided damas and rescue for that area.

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Speaker 4: You know, we wore work, to.

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Speaker 1: Say the least, Yes, saving Lise kind of the freaking

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Speaker 1: opposite of being a murderer, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And of course during this rise in your career,

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Speaker 1: both professional and in the volunteer space, you had married

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Speaker 1: your high school sweetheart Julie Bonds in nineteen eighty had

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Speaker 1: a great job fulfilling community service, and had your son,

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Speaker 1: Chad in nineteen eighty two, through which you and Julie

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Speaker 1: shared a bond that could not be broken even if

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Speaker 1: your marriage was going through a rough patch.

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Speaker 4: Right, and it was, you know, the look back, it

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Speaker 4: was just a lot of poor decisions on probably both

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Speaker 4: of our part, but certainly on mind and we kind

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Speaker 4: of grew apart, I guess, you know. I say we

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Speaker 4: had we had a good relationship, very very amicable to

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Speaker 4: say the least. We were together pretty much every day

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Speaker 4: even during the time that we later separated and I

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Speaker 4: had an apartment across town, we were still very involved

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Speaker 4: with course with our son as well as you know,

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Speaker 4: mutual friends and things like that, and we were together

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Speaker 4: constantly even though we were we were separated and trying

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Speaker 4: to work out marritder issues and so forth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems that things may have worked out

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Speaker 1: in your marriage had all of this tragic series of

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Speaker 1: events not come to pass. The night before Julie died,

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Speaker 1: you two had actually spent the evening together correct.

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Speaker 4: That night, I'd been over there. We had actually been

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Speaker 4: to see a marriage counselor, had had an affair before

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Speaker 4: that for several months prior to that, and it had

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Speaker 4: ended it although I was still talking to the lady

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Speaker 4: for a while there, and anyway, Julie and I were

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Speaker 4: trying to work through those things, and so we had

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Speaker 4: actually had an interview with it marriage counselor that night,

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Speaker 4: if and then we had actually met back over at

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Speaker 4: the house later and stayed at the house for I

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Speaker 4: guess a couple of hours or so, and left around

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Speaker 4: ten fifteen, ten thirty, somewhere in that range.

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Speaker 1: And this affair that you mentioned, the woman you're referring

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Speaker 1: to is Gloria Wiggins. So at least from trial testimony

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Speaker 1: said that you had called her on the phone from

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Speaker 1: your apartment. I remember this is the era before cell phone,

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Speaker 1: so this is corroborative evidence that you were actually at

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Speaker 1: the apartment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, at that phone call. I'm at the apartment when

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Speaker 4: I made the call. And then, you know, I just

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Speaker 4: go to sleep, and the next morning I get up

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Speaker 4: at whatever time, six thirty six forty five, had to

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Speaker 4: be at work at seven thirty.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So this is the morning of May thirty first,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, and you were having what you thought

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Speaker 1: was going to be a normal day, and as per usual,

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Speaker 1: your parents were waiting for Julie to drop off Chad

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Speaker 1: at their house on her way to.

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Speaker 4: Work right usually around eighties, and so there was times

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Speaker 4: when she'd bring me breakfast her, you know, or whatever.

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Speaker 4: And so that morning I had called her about that

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Speaker 4: and picking up something on her way and didn't get

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Speaker 4: an answer, and turn around call right back. I figured

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Speaker 4: I'd just dial the wrong number or something. Still didn't

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Speaker 4: get answer, and even then it didn't particularly alarm it.

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Speaker 4: You know, you just think, okay, she left for work,

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Speaker 4: a little earlier something I really thought a little of it,

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Speaker 4: and then later on it was I believe after eight

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Speaker 4: I called my mom's house and she hadn't got there yet.

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Speaker 4: And my mom, of course, if once something like that

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Speaker 4: had she just starts worrying. So, you know, I called

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Speaker 4: the house a couple more times and get no answer,

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Speaker 4: and so eventually I called her workplace. They had not

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Speaker 4: seen her either, and about that time, you know, my

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Speaker 4: mom was like, so he Dad's going to check on.

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Speaker 4: I said, okay, okay, I'll go there and just you know,

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Speaker 4: kind of like we're leaving, you know, fears, so to speak.

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Speaker 4: And so I leave work, go toward the house, and

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Speaker 4: many of the rescue squad members we had two way

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Speaker 4: radios in our personal vehicles, and so as I'm going

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Speaker 4: to the house, I hear them on the radio call

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Speaker 4: about a namas going to beside Charles McCrory's house or

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Speaker 4: near Charles mccrary's house. And even then, you know, my

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Speaker 4: thought was maybe a neighbor in trouble or somebody outside,

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Speaker 4: or I call and tell him, you know, I look,

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Speaker 4: I'm on my way over there anyway, And when I

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Speaker 4: get there, my dad's outside and he's just you know,

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Speaker 4: he's upset, and said, something's wrong with Julie. You know,

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Speaker 4: where is she? And he just kind of like falling

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Speaker 4: towards the house. I said, where's Chad, and he said,

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Speaker 4: I've already got Chad. He's at the neighbors. He had

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Speaker 4: he had already been in the house and founder the

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Speaker 4: front door was a jar when he got there.

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Speaker 1: So your father was the first to see this horrible

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Speaker 1: crime scene before whisking away your three year old boy,

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Speaker 1: who was thankfully unharmed. It's the only silver lining in

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Speaker 1: this whole thing. And as you mentioned, he had taken

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Speaker 1: him to the neighbors. Julie, on the other hand, was

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Speaker 1: not so fortunate. She had been beaten to death. Rigormortis

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Speaker 1: typically sets in about three to six hours after death,

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Speaker 1: and by the time investigators arrived on scene around nine am,

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Speaker 1: rigor mortis had not yet set in, so the murder

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Speaker 1: must have occurred sometime between three and six am. Well,

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Speaker 1: you hadn't seen her since about ten to fifteen pm,

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Speaker 1: despite conflicting and dubious reports of a car that looked

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Speaker 1: like yours having been allegedly seen at the house during

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Speaker 1: those hours. And we're going to get to that in

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Speaker 1: a bit, but first I want to talk about the

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Speaker 1: crime scene itself. Now, this was a terribly violent struggle.

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Speaker 1: A stocking had been tied to her right wrist. Hair

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Speaker 1: was found at her left hand, hair that must have

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Speaker 1: logically belonged to the person but to whom she was

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Speaker 1: fighting for her very life. There was also a red

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Speaker 1: bandana found near the body. Now, the fire poker from

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Speaker 1: the fireplace appeared to be missing and was never found again.

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Speaker 1: From the autopsy, it appears that she was struck four

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Speaker 1: times in the back of the head, with one wound

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Speaker 1: to the side of the head blunt trauma's the left

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Speaker 1: part of her skull, eleven puncture wounds to the left breast,

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Speaker 1: fractures on both mandibles, bruises on her face and ribs,

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Speaker 1: and two bruises that may or may not have been

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Speaker 1: bite marks on her right shoulder. So this is your wife,

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Speaker 1: the mother of your son, and now you've come upon

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Speaker 1: this unbelievably bloody and brutal crime scene.

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Speaker 4: When you walk in and see that, you just mean,

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Speaker 4: you don't know, you just don't know what sits to do.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you don't know what to think. It's so

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Speaker 4: shocking that there's really no standard response for it. You know,

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Speaker 4: after I had saying that Julie was dead, and then

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Speaker 4: the risky score got there right after that. And of course,

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Speaker 4: you know, I knew all the guys on the squad,

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Speaker 4: they were all friends of mine, and they were you know,

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Speaker 4: wanting to see At that point, the police had not

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Speaker 4: arrived or anything. And so as we do that, I

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Speaker 4: come out and I go across the street to Chad

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Speaker 4: and I remember I remember holding him and just I mean, really,

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Speaker 4: the thought that come to mine is, my god, what

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Speaker 4: is happening. I remember him kind of pushing back a

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Speaker 4: little bit. I guess I was squeezing him too tight

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Speaker 4: or something. But and then in the coming days, you know,

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Speaker 4: he would ask for and we'd try to answer him

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Speaker 4: as best you can.

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Speaker 3: This is an incredibly brutal crime and the perpetrator undoubtedly

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Speaker 3: would have been very bloody. And there was only lads

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Speaker 3: to a been about four hours passed between the last

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Speaker 3: time that mister McCrory he saw the victim in this case,

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Speaker 3: and when he was first questioned by police at that time,

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Speaker 3: they turned over all of his clothes, they searched the

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Speaker 3: intertor's car, they searched his house, They found no trace

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Speaker 3: of blood on anything. Then they examined the hares that

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Speaker 3: were clutched in the victim's hand. Those hairs were not

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Speaker 3: from the victim, and they were not from Charles McCrory.

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Speaker 3: In other words, they were from a third person. We

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Speaker 3: still don't know whose hairs those were. There was also

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Speaker 3: a red bandana found near the victim's body. There was

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Speaker 3: a construction worker that worked next door to the victim's

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Speaker 3: house was known to wear a red bandana. There was

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Speaker 3: an open window on that side of the house, the

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Speaker 3: same side as the construction site, that had a fresh

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Speaker 3: bootprint outside that window. The police took an impression of

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Speaker 3: that bootprint, but then never compared it to anything or anybody,

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Speaker 3: and never dusted the the window sill that was open

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Speaker 3: for fingerprints. But we know that a man who worked

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Speaker 3: at that construction site named Ainsworth was known to wear

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Speaker 3: a red bandana. And we know that a few weeks

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Speaker 3: after this murder, he committed a home invasion rape and

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Speaker 3: served twenty years in prison for that crime. Was never

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Speaker 3: investigated as a suspect in this case. Then we also

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Speaker 3: know that mister McCrory had been entirely cooperative with the

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Speaker 3: prosecution from beginning to end, had voluntarily supplied samples of

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Speaker 3: his hair, his DNA, his body, all of which was exculpatory,

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Speaker 3: nothing to point to mister McCrory's guilt. The only physical

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Speaker 3: evidence was concocted, and we'll talk about the bite marks

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Speaker 3: in a second. The only other evidence was that neighbor

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Speaker 3: across the street who claimed that around four o'clock in

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Speaker 3: the morning, his nineteen year old kid decides to get

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Speaker 3: up and check on the garden, but he wasn't sure

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Speaker 3: of the date, was sure of the truck, but he's

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Speaker 3: thought that on the date in question that he had

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Speaker 3: seen a truck similar to mister McCrory's.

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Speaker 1: And despite this extremely dubious teenage middle of the night

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Speaker 1: gardening scenario, we also found out later that he and

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Speaker 1: later his grandfather not only exaggerated their vantage point, but

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Speaker 1: also several other neighbors with much more credible recollections reported

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Speaker 1: only Julie's car in the driveway on the date and

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Speaker 1: time in question.

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Speaker 3: That's the only evidence that they had apart from this

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Speaker 3: bite mark.

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Speaker 1: And the bite mark. Even their trial expert Dick Suveran,

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Speaker 1: years later admitted that he wasn't even sure if it

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Speaker 1: even was a bitemark at all. But even back in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, other than the refuted recollection of this

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Speaker 1: teenage middle of the night gardener and his grandfather, all

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00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,159
Speaker 1: other evidence pointed away from Charles. But tunnel Vision had

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Speaker 1: already said in and some say that it came back

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Speaker 1: to something Charles had said at the crime scene and

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Speaker 1: what later the prosecutor tried to use against him a trial.

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Speaker 1: It was when at the scene, looking at the body

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Speaker 1: with the other rescue squad guys on police and seeing

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Speaker 1: the gash on the back of her head, Charles said

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Speaker 1: something to the effect of do you think it was

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Speaker 1: the licks to her head? Is that what killed her?

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Speaker 1: So they just totally ignored the clump of hair in

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Speaker 1: her hand, the red bandana, any alternative suspects, the lack

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Speaker 1: of blood on anything that Charles owned, and started turning

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Speaker 1: their focus on him anyway, on Charles, do you remember

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Speaker 1: when that happened?

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Speaker 4: I do know there was a time when the fielding

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Speaker 4: is almost like the atmosphere changed. You could just feel

355
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Speaker 4: it in the air, And in fact, I believe later Saturday,

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Speaker 4: I told my mom that looked you know, they're turning

357
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Speaker 4: this on me. They're looking at me. And then it

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Speaker 4: was on Saturday night. The mayor of Andalusia was a

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Speaker 4: man named Chalwmers, Brian. He was a longtime family friend

360
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Speaker 4: of ours. He was a deacon in our church and

361
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Speaker 4: I had known Chalmers a long time. He was also

362
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Speaker 4: one of the charge members of the resk You squad,

363
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Speaker 4: so I knew him through that. And he called me

364
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Speaker 4: and said, look, I want to talk to you. So

365
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Speaker 4: we talked on Saturday night for a good while and

366
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,360
Speaker 4: Chalmers told me then he said, you know they think

367
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Speaker 4: you did this. He told me, say, I don't believe that,

368
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 4: he said, But I'm the mayor. I can't get involved

369
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Speaker 4: in this, you know, I've got to let the police

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Speaker 4: do their work.

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Speaker 1: Wow. So, okay, if you're at home listening to this

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Speaker 1: insane story right now and thinking, well, okay, but you're

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Speaker 1: somehow safe, You're somehow insulated from the possibility of being

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Speaker 1: the victim of a wrongful conviction. Are you friends with

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Speaker 1: the mayor? Because even a friendship like that couldn't save Charles,

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Speaker 1: which shows us, in very stark terms that none of

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Speaker 1: us are safe. So just after Julie's funeral. On that Monday,

378
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 1: they brought you in for a more accusatory interview that

379
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Speaker 1: ended up in your arrest. Did they try to extract

380
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Speaker 1: a confession, as we so often see.

381
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Speaker 4: Oh yes, as we were walking over to the county

382
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 4: jails when one of them said, you know we can

383
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 4: help you on this. And you got a long record

384
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 4: of community service, you come from a good family. You know,

385
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 4: all these kinds of positive things about my life that

386
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,639
Speaker 4: they seem to soon forget. But they say, you know,

387
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,560
Speaker 4: we can do a deal here where you know, we'll

388
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,359
Speaker 4: talk to the DA and see if we can't. You know,

389
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Speaker 4: I think we can do ten years at that time

390
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,679
Speaker 4: manslaughter without a weapon. I believe it was called for

391
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Speaker 4: like ten years is the max. And said, you know

392
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Speaker 4: you'd be home in two or three years for Chad

393
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Speaker 4: even gets in school. Good. You know you'd already be home.

394
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Speaker 4: So I'm not pleading guilty to something I didn't do.

395
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Speaker 4: And that kind of ended that discussion.

396
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Speaker 1: And oddly enough, the Covenant County DA Grady Lanier, had

397
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 1: no plans on indicting you none. The case against you

398
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,119
Speaker 1: was just too weak. A false confession would have definitely

399
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,639
Speaker 1: changed his tune. But you didn't crumble. This is why

400
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 1: Julie's family, on this bizarre Alabama law, was able to

401
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 1: bring in private prosecutors to do with Grady Laneer rightfully

402
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:02,120
Speaker 1: did not want to do He declined to do it. Mark,

403
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,160
Speaker 1: do I have that right?

404
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 2: That's right from talking to folks in the community that

405
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,680
Speaker 2: he was at best lukewarm about the prospect of indicting

406
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,400
Speaker 2: mister McCrory and trying the case, as you would think

407
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,919
Speaker 2: he would be, because, as you pointed out, there was

408
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 2: no evidence against mister McCrory, and the evidence that there

409
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 2: was was exculpatory, right, And so I believe it was

410
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 2: Julie's uncle approached this father son duo of Frank and

411
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 2: Harvey Tippler, who were very well known trial attorneys, and

412
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 2: so he went out and paid them to prosecute the case.

413
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 2: And I think that's the point at which this alleged

414
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,199
Speaker 2: bite mark, sort of as Chris said, gets concocted.

415
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Speaker 3: There were a number of puncture wounds on the victim's body.

416
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 3: It was the tiplars who took this injury and decided

417
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 3: that these were potentially teeth marks and took this evidence

418
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 3: to doctor Dick Suveran who rose to fame as one

419
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,120
Speaker 3: of the forensic odentologists. Is they like to call themselves

420
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 3: when they're in court. It's just a fancy way of

421
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 3: saying forensic dentist. And Suvron decides that these R and

422
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 3: D teeth marks, but he's very noncommittal about associating these

423
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 3: teeth marks with mister McCrory. Then the case gets closer

424
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,640
Speaker 3: and closer to trial. And you see this in wrongful

425
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 3: conviction after wrongful conviction, particularly as it relates to junk science.

426
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 3: And this is why junk science is so convenient, because

427
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,400
Speaker 3: it really can say whatever you needed to say. And

428
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 3: it wasn't saying enough before trial. But by the time

429
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 3: it got to trial, Dick Suban was saying that it

430
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 3: was mister McCrory's tea, to exclusion of everybody else on

431
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 3: the planet's teeth that made this particular bitemark.

432
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Speaker 1: So, according to this letter from Souveran to the Tiplers

433
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 1: that was hidden from the defensive trial, Souvan shared his

434
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 1: own doubts about making that match in court, but then

435
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: he later did it anyway a trial. Now how he

436
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 1: squared that circle for himself know, But the Tiplers now

437
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: had their you know, the piece of evidence that they

438
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: needed to win, not to get justice, but to win

439
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: for trial. And this is just five months later in

440
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: October nineteen eighty five. And remember Charles was doing well

441
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 1: in life, so he was able to hire a real

442
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 1: solid team Bubba, Marcel and Larrigus said, who were experienced

443
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: defense layers. They just couldn't overcome what was eventually the

444
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 1: recanted false testimony of Dick Suveran.

445
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 2: So it's a short trial, a couple of days. What

446
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 2: is frustrating is that the opening and closing statements are

447
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 2: not transcribed, so we only have the testimony of the witnesses.

448
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 2: And like you mentioned, it really comes down to the

449
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: bitemark by doctor Souverron.

450
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,959
Speaker 1: But in addition to that, the Tiplers presented the marriage

451
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,199
Speaker 1: counselor as well as the woman with whom Charles had

452
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: had an affair, Gloria Wiggins, to solidify their narrative that

453
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: marital trouble was a potential catalyst or motive. But oddly enough,

454
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: this woman, Gloria Wiggins, actually corroborated that Charles was back

455
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: in his apartment around ten thirty pm, not at Julie's.

456
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 1: They also brought up this comment from Charles at the

457
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: crime scene about the quote licks to the back of

458
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: her head. Now again, he was making an observation and

459
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: she had a massive gash to the back of her head.

460
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: So far, this is not a compelling case at all.

461
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: Then they brought out the nineteen year old with the

462
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: crazy midnight gardening story, Willie Meeks, who had been staying

463
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 1: with his grandfather, Hubert Walker, Julie's neighbor, who also testified.

464
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: There's this teenager kitty corner from Julie's home who claims

465
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 2: that he was out at four point thirty at five

466
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning checking on his grandfather's garden. It

467
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: may have been the morning of May thirty. First, he's

468
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 2: not really sure, and he sees this car that looks

469
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 2: similar to the one that mister McCrory drives parked at

470
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 2: Julie's house, right, so whatever that is worth. Interestingly, his

471
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 2: grandfather there, who lives in that home, also testifies and

472
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: claims that he is also up in the morning and

473
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 2: also says that he sees a similar car, but he

474
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: says that the car is parked somewhere else in a

475
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: different location. So like you have these two stories that

476
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: I think the prosecution probably hoped would corroborate each other,

477
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: which actually didn't corroborate each other, probably because they were inaccurate.

478
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 4: You know, Mick said that he saw the truck there,

479
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 4: and my attorney had him draw a sketch, and that's

480
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 4: part of the trial records. There's actually a hand drawn

481
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 4: sketch of where the truck was parked. And I think

482
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 4: it's the point a lot of people just didn't catch

483
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 4: in the jury at the time. The house has a

484
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 4: double driveway in it, and Julie's car would always parked it,

485
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 4: you know, closer to the front door, and my Bronco

486
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 4: was sit beside it, but there was plenty of room

487
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 4: in the driveway for both vehicles. So when I got there,

488
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 4: my dad's car was already there, parked beside Julie's car

489
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 4: in the drive so I just pull up behind him

490
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 4: over on the grass to the left side of the driveway.

491
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 4: So then Danny leaves to go tell mother what had happened,

492
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 4: and so when he leaves, that leaves an opening in

493
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 4: the driveway. And so that's exactly how Meeks drew it

494
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 4: on his diagram, and to me, it's obviously what Meeks

495
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 4: saying is what he'd remembers seeing that morning after the

496
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 4: police got there and after all this had happened, And

497
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 4: there's an aerial photo of the scene taken by the

498
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 4: police that shows that.

499
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 1: So it seems like maybe this kid was interviewed in

500
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: the aftermath about seeing Charles's car a few days after

501
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: the fact, and his recollection was a bit fuzzy. Perhaps

502
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: his memory was enhanced by that aerial photo. We'll never know. Perhaps,

503
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: as we've seen in other cases, you just had a

504
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: kid who, for whatever reason, wanted to insert himself into

505
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: an investigation to help the police. However, what we found

506
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 1: out just before the evidence you hearing that Chris and

507
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: Mark recently tagged him, was that an investigator working for

508
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: Chris checked out the properties and get this, the vantage

509
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: point that Willie Meeks and his grandfather had. They checked

510
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: it out, and what they found is that that vantage

511
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: point was totally misrepresented to the jury. The jury had

512
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: been told that they were right across the street, but

513
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: if you were standing where they said they were standing

514
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: and looking at Julie's house, you would not have been

515
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: able to see the driveway in the way that they claimed.

516
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 3: This kid who testified they was checking the garden as

517
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 3: the father of a teenager. It struck me when I

518
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 3: read the transcript, it was like who does that? Who

519
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 3: gets up? But like, you know, I think that you know,

520
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 3: normally when you would have a testimony like that at

521
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 3: a trial, that you would have some sort of explanation. Yeah,

522
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 3: it was part of my job, like to go out

523
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 3: and you know, make sure that the garden was still

524
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 3: there at four thirty in the morning, when it's still

525
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 3: basically dark out.

526
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 2: The defense called two other neighbors, one of whom had

527
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: an actual explanation that was credible for why they were

528
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: out on the morning of May thirty. First, that is,

529
00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: they were getting in their car to go to work.

530
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 2: These were you know, and it was an adult who

531
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: had a job. These two witnesses said there was no

532
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 2: car there, meeting that description.

533
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: So this midnight, pre dawned gardening teenager and his grandfather,

534
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 1: who remember, whose accounts did not corroborate each other, were

535
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: refuted by two other neighbors with credible recollections of that

536
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: morning who said that both said that Charles's car was

537
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: not there. And in addition to this weak evidence, the

538
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 1: Tiplers presented no confessions, eyewitnesses, forensic evidence because there wasn't any.

539
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: The hares found in Julie's hand were not a match

540
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: for Julie or Charles. Charles's clothes, his car, fingernails, his apartment.

541
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: No blood evidence at all was found. In fact, get

542
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: this prior to trial. At one point they even claimed

543
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: that they had found blood on his tennis shoes, but

544
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: when it came back for the lab it turned out

545
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: to be Coca cola. Now, the defense presented Charles, who,

546
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: of course reiterated the same statement that he had been

547
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: making since day one, recounting his every step and maintaining

548
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: his innocence. The defense tried to up to the evidence

549
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: of an intruder coming through the open rear window, the bootprint,

550
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: and the red bandana, as well as the construction worker

551
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: Ainsworth who worked behind Julie's house and committed a rape

552
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: and home invasion just a month after Julie's murder, but

553
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: none of it gained enough traction to overcome the testimony

554
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: of Dick Suveran.

555
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: Doctor Richard Suveran, fresh off his testimony convicting Ted Bundy.

556
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: Doctor Suveran is a charismatic guy, one of the sort

557
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 2: of godfathers of forensic odonology. Right, he's got resume full

558
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: of credentials, at least he did in nineteen eighty five.

559
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: At the time of this trial. Fancy doctor flies up

560
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: to ende Lujahl Obama from Miami and wow's the jury

561
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: with this quote unquote science. And you know, I think

562
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: the private prosecutors, the Tipplers, knew how important he was

563
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: because they saved him to the end of their case

564
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 2: against mister McCrory. And right at the end of his testimony,

565
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: they do this series of questions, is this a bitemark?

566
00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: Yes?

567
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: Did mister McCrory make this by mark?

568
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: Yes?

569
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: Did he do it during the murder? Essentially? Yes? And

570
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: if you're a juror, that's hard to overcome. You know. Yeah,

571
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 2: there's tons of all their expalatory information out there, obviously,

572
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 2: but you just had this fancy doctor who flew up

573
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 2: from Miami saying this guy bit her while.

574
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: He was killing her.

575
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 4: You know.

576
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: It's usually at this point that I ask if you

577
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: were still holding out hope that the jury got it right,

578
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: but it doesn't sound like anyone did. Can you take

579
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: us back to that moment, that awful moment when the

580
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: jury came back in.

581
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 4: Well, when when they walked in, I mean, I could

582
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 4: have told you the verdict before they're in, just jurors

583
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 4: that were smiling and looking at us and so forth.

584
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 4: But when they came back in that they were not

585
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 4: looking at our way, and I knew then, you know

586
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 4: that it was over. When jeordge Balwin, you know, fantastic

587
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 4: guilt to I told him then that I didn't kill her.

588
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 4: I knew it wasn't gonna make any real difference, but

589
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 4: there's something I felt I had to say. I had

590
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 4: to tell him personally, well, you know, I wanted to

591
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 4: stay in front of everybody. I need not do this.

592
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 4: And we were surprised that the judge allowed me to

593
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 4: remain out on bond until sentence, and that was just

594
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 4: unheard of. And I've often thought that maybe that was

595
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 4: a little bit of how he felt about the case,

596
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 4: because you just don't get convicted the murder and stay

597
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 4: out on bonding. And I went out for ten more days.

598
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 4: Prison is a horrible place. You don't want to be there,

599
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 4: and you don't want your family there, to say the least.

600
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 4: There's a real adjustment. That's not the word for it.

601
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 4: It's culture shock. I mean, it's just not something I

602
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 4: ever dreamed in the worst nightmare, what ever happened. And

603
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 4: so to get sentenced to a life sentences, you know,

604
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 4: it takes a while to adjust to that.

605
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: There's no way I'd ever want to even imagine. Must

606
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: us live through it? I mean, seeing what Dick Suvron did,

607
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: did you have any hope that this could ever be undone?

608
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 4: Uh? Well, we of course did a direct appeal to

609
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 4: criminal court appeals like you normally would, and that was

610
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 4: shot down, although there were some comments in their opinion

611
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 4: that you know, they agreed that Subarun's testimony had substantially

612
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 4: changed from the time he wrote the letter until he

613
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 4: actually came in the courtroom and that should have been

614
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 4: revealed to us under discovery laws. But the judge said

615
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 4: that Marcel, my attorney, did not object at the proper

616
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 4: time to preserve it for appellate review. And it's like

617
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 4: I couldn't believe that, I mean, your attorney doesn't object

618
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,239
Speaker 4: even though they think there's an issue here. And then,

619
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 4: of course we didn't know until after I was at

620
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 4: Kilby for a while at a hearing on a motion

621
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 4: for a new trial. The DA greatly near at the

622
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: time Grady made the comment about Harvey went down there

623
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 4: one day, and that's when we first learned that Harvey Tippler,

624
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 4: the young the son of the Tipplers, had act going

625
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 4: down to Carl Gables, Florida and met with Suverron from

626
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 4: the time of the letter until the time of the trial.

627
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 4: So now it's like, Okay, now we're seeing some understanding.

628
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 4: Why did this testimony change like it did?

629
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: Wow, So now things begin to appear a bit clearer.

630
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 3: You know, another thing happened after this case. The Tipplers,

631
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: younger member of their duo went to federal prison serving

632
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 3: life sentence for solicitation and murder as an aside, right,

633
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 3: So these are the guys that prosecuted an innocent man.

634
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: So it appears Harvey Tippler may have been willing to

635
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: fudge evidence to ruin an innocent man's life, which makes

636
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 1: his solicitation of murder conviction not that surprising, let's face it.

637
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: So what did the Alabama Supreme Court do with this

638
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: information album?

639
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 4: The Supreme Court, they really just didn't do anything with it,

640
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 4: and then it just sat for a while. And I'm

641
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 4: not sure the date here in the early two thousands

642
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 4: or someone of the two thousands that the cases involved

643
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 4: in Michael Way and the dental mess over there in

644
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 4: Mississippi where two different men were sentenced to death row.

645
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Lavon Brooks and Kennedy Brewer. That was like two

646
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, two thousand and eight. Michael West was

647
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: basically exposed as being a fixer for hire. If you

648
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: didn't have the evidence you needed to con back, he'd

649
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: basically just show up and match any teeth to almost

650
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 1: any injury.

651
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 4: Right exactly. That case became public and we got wind

652
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 4: of it and Newsweek magazine I believe it was, and

653
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 4: so after that we file Rule thirty two trying to

654
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 4: attack the dental evidence, but at that point we didn't

655
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 4: have near the resources. Any serious ammunition didn't come up

656
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 4: until I got a letter from Mark earlier the Innocence

657
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 4: Project of New York could ask if we would be

658
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 4: willing to provide records. They were doing, I think a

659
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 4: task force or study in dental cases around the country.

660
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 4: So we provided all the records.

661
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 3: You know, when we in strategical litigation at the Innocence

662
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 3: Project decided to focus on bank Mark comparison at evidence

663
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 3: we identified as well as we possibly could every bite

664
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 3: Mark conviction in the history of time, and we focused

665
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 3: on death penalty cases initially, and then we started, you know,

666
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 3: litigating all of these cases because we know that any

667
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 3: conviction that rests on junk science is inherently unreliable. And

668
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 3: because Mark and I have litigated many post conviction cases previously,

669
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 3: including another wrongful conviction of Shila Denton in Georgia that

670
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 3: was also a bite Mark case. We reached out to Mark,

671
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 3: you know, because Mark and the Southern Center for Human

672
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 3: Rights litigates and Georgia and in Alabama and referred mister

673
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 3: McCrory's case to him.

674
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 2: I read the transcript and I thought, yep, we're going

675
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 2: to take this. You know, mister McCrory's lead trial council's

676
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,919
Speaker 2: deceased now, but the junior trial attorney at the time

677
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 2: is not. And you know, he was practicing in nineteen

678
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: eighty five. He's still practicing, So that's a career of

679
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 2: something like thirty seven thirty nine, forty years. When I

680
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: walked into his office after I learned of this case

681
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, he had mister McCrory's file

682
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 2: sitting behind his desk, and he said, that's where I

683
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: keep my file because this is that case, this is

684
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: the case that haunts me. One of the first things

685
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: we did was we've talked with Chris and we said, well,

686
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 2: let's just see if doctor Suvron what he thinks today,

687
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: and so we asked him.

688
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not very popular with the dentists, as

689
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 3: you can imagine, particularly after publishing my book, but I

690
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 3: do have respect for forensic analysts of any discipline that

691
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 3: are willing to review their prior case work and to

692
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 3: recant when they know they've been wrong, when they know

693
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 3: that their opinion may have led to the conviction of

694
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 3: an innocent person. And I think that with notable exceptions

695
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 3: that we've talked about on your show before, Jason, but

696
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 3: most forensic analysts are trying to do the right thing.

697
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 3: They're not trying to frame innocent people for crimes that

698
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 3: they didn't commit. And you know, when you have the

699
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 3: influence of you know, prosecutors saying that that you know,

700
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,439
Speaker 3: this guy is a guilty murderer and we need your

701
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: opinion to help put him away, you know, many friends

702
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 3: analysts believe that they're doing the right thing by giving

703
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 3: the opinion to the prosecution that.

704
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 2: They want dix.

705
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,919
Speaker 3: Zuban went back, he reviewed his testimony, he reviewed the

706
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: evidence at issue, and he entirely recanted his opinion. Once

707
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: that happened, Mark and I decided to co counsel this

708
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 3: case together and we filed a petition for a new

709
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 3: trial untainted by false, misleading. Evidence that was presented, nonetheless

710
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 3: is so called scientific evidence to mister McCrory's jury, So.

711
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 2: That's what we want.

712
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 3: We filed this motion for a new trial in the case,

713
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 3: and we were granted an evidentiary hearing, and in the

714
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 3: lead up to this evidentiary hearing, the day before, we

715
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 3: got an offer from the prosecution for time served, which

716
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 3: means that all mister McCrory has to do is accept

717
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 3: responsibility for this murder, and he goes home that day

718
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 3: day that day, goes back to his son, to his sisters,

719
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 3: to his life after thirty seven years in prison. He

720
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 3: did not hesitate for one second in rejecting it. I

721
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 3: think I'd plead guilty almost anything to get out of

722
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 3: prison after being in for that long, And to me,

723
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 3: that was as much evidence as anything else that mister

724
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 3: McCrory is an instant.

725
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: Man, and the fact that it was offered in the

726
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: first place, and the fact that they let him go

727
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: home after he was sentenced, but before he went to prison.

728
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: All of it adds up to an even more searing

729
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: indictment of the whole system.

730
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 4: Someone asked me recently, did you entertain it? And I

731
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 4: know I didn't entertain it. I'm not about to plead

732
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 4: guilty to a murder that I did not do for

733
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 4: many reasons. I mean, obviously I want to get out

734
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 4: of prison, but we want to know what happened and

735
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 4: who did it and so forth, And it seems to

736
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 4: be that we're the only ones chasing those answers. The

737
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 4: police have long since given up on trying to help that.

738
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 4: It seemed like in many ways they've tried to cover

739
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 4: their tracks on their inepness. Back when all this occurred,

740
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 4: I mean, investigator blay geartt destroys and burns several things

741
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 4: that could have been used for DNAs. That's when DNA

742
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 4: was just becoming known and just becoming popular, and yeah,

743
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 4: he burns these things.

744
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 2: Now, we would love to do DNA testing of the

745
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 2: fingernail scrapings that were taken from Julie right, despite no

746
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 2: scratches on mister McCrory, the hair that was found clutched

747
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 2: in her head, the red bandana like the one that

748
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 2: Ainsworth wore. We'd love to test all of that for DNA,

749
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 2: but one of the police officers burnt it all and

750
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 2: so it's unavailable for testing.

751
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: Who burns evidence? This is insane, like at least lie

752
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: to us, right it was, tell us that you lost it,

753
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 1: but you burned it. It just speaks to the fact

754
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: that all the people in positions of power really must

755
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: know that he's innocent.

756
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 3: Is just astonishing. So we proceed to the hearing, and

757
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 3: in addition to the recantation that was done in an

758
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,479
Speaker 3: Affidavid and you know, notably, the prosecution did not call

759
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 3: pigsu Verron to try to rehabilitate him or to try

760
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 3: to salvage his commcsion. Instead, we put on the evidence,

761
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 3: and we put on two forensic dentists, Adam Freeman and

762
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: Cynthia Berezowski, both of whom are to extent that anybody

763
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 3: can be well qualified in this field. They're both very

764
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 3: well qualified and studied it, and they both opined that

765
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 3: this was not a bite mark. They looked at the

766
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 3: other injuries that had not been called teeth marks and

767
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 3: pointed out that these things that were called teeth marks

768
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 3: and these other things that weren't appeared to be the

769
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: same instrument that created all these injuries which were not

770
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 3: teeth right. And then additionally and importantly, we had an

771
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 3: investigator go out to the scene a couple of days

772
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 3: before the hearing and take a look at the vantage

773
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 3: point that the kid across the street and his grandfather

774
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 3: claimed to have seen mister McCrory's truck or something that

775
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 3: looked like his truck, maybe on the.

776
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: Day of the murder, maybe not.

777
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 3: And the description of the vantage point that they gave

778
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 3: to mister McCory's jury, it was described as being directly

779
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 3: across the street. But if you were standing where they

780
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 3: said they were standing, and you were looking toward the

781
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 3: victim's house, you would not have been able to see

782
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 3: the driveway in the way that they claimed. And when

783
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 3: we put our investigator on the stand, we showed evidence

784
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 3: from the nineteen eighties that showed that the houses were

785
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 3: in the same position, that there were no new structures,

786
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,399
Speaker 3: and that they were the same when we did the

787
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 3: hearing last year. So even this one shred of weak

788
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 3: evidence was further undermined at this hearing.

789
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: To sort of close out the rest of the hearing.

790
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: You know, we felt like we did it. That's the

791
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 2: only evidence. It's not there anymore. Right, And so what

792
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: does the prosecution do. A prosecution has an investigator from

793
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: their office read the direct testimony of some of the

794
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: witnesses who testify in nineteen eighty five. So this guy's

795
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: just literally reading the transcript. He's not reading the cross examinations,

796
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: he's not reading any of the defense witnesses.

797
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: He's just reading.

798
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: Certain prosecutor and witnesses from nineteen eighty five, which seems

799
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 2: to me a concession that they have no response to

800
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: anything that we've said. And then in closing argument, get

801
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 2: up and create an entirely new theory of guilt.

802
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: Right.

803
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 2: Liliana Sigoura and Jordan Smith did an article for The

804
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 2: Intercept on this case, and they called the closing argument

805
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 2: a fever dream. It was just this story that the

806
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 2: new prosecutor made up, completely inconsistent with the theory that

807
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 2: the prosecution had at the time. And so we're sitting

808
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 2: there like, what is going on? What is this? This

809
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: makes no sense this is a totally new theory. And

810
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: so a few days after the hearing, in Investergeiter and

811
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 2: I went down to the prison where Harvey Tipler was

812
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 2: serving his prison. Since he was agreeable he knew the

813
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 2: case well. He has since passed away. He spoke with

814
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: us for quite a while about his memory of the

815
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: case because I mentioned at the outset, we didn't have

816
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: the opening statement or the closing argument, and so we

817
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 2: didn't know what the prosecution argut in closing. So we

818
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: went to the source and we said, mister Tipler, what

819
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: did you say in closing? And he said, oh, it

820
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 2: is the bitemark. That was all we had, you know.

821
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 2: And so we submitted a notice to the court saying

822
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 2: we would like to let the court know that mister Tipler,

823
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 2: the lawyer who tried the case, disagrees with the new tact,

824
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 2: essentially that the prosecution has taken and the court didn't

825
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 2: allow us to add that to the record, so they

826
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 2: had no response to the new evidence and instead made

827
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 2: up this story. And the real kicker was when they

828
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: said that the jury was free to decide for itself

829
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: that it was mister McCrory's bitemark. So notwithstanding three dentists

830
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 2: who said it's not a bitemark let alone. Mister McCrory's

831
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 2: execution said, well, but the jury could have decided that

832
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: it was, and therefore his convictions should stand.

833
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 3: So to put it differently, lagers are more capable of

834
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 3: engaging in junk science than the junk scientists themselves, right,

835
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 3: So that the idea is is that you don't even

836
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 3: need an expert witness. We can just put this junk

837
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 3: science in front of the jury and that would be

838
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 3: good enough for government work.

839
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 4: You know what, do you bring in somebody LASU or

840
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 4: all these big fancy pictures and all that, and they're

841
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 4: gonna believe what he says. And the idea that somehow

842
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 4: they can take that out and the jury would have

843
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 4: reached the same verdict is ridiculous.

844
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 1: It's unfucking real. And then on the first of March

845
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, you guys filed the motion to reconsider

846
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: the order. In it, you've described all of the other

847
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: bitemark cases that resulted in overturned convictions, and this emotion began.

848
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 1: I think this is so powerful, just with the names

849
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: of thirty five people who combined probably served over a

850
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: thousand years in prison. If I to guess, and we

851
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: know some of these names because they've been on the show,

852
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: and I mean we can read them one at a time,

853
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: I feel like we should go in each take turns

854
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:10,280
Speaker 1: reading the names.

855
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: Keith Harward, Robert Stinson, Gerard Richardson, Willie Jackson, Roy Brown,

856
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 2: Ray Cron, Calvin Washington, Joe Williams, James O'Donnell, Levon Brooks,

857
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: Kennedy Brewer, Benny.

858
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: Starks, Michael Christine.

859
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Muldowan, Anthony Keko, Harold Hill, Dan Young Junior, Greg Wilhoyt,

860
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,720
Speaker 3: Crystal Weimer, Stephen Cheney, William.

861
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: Richards, Alfred Swinton.

862
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 2: Sherwood Brown, John Kunzo, Garry Sifazzari, Sheila Denton, Robert de Boys,

863
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: Eddie Lee, Howard, Gilbert Pool, and of.

864
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: Course the man we're talking about today, Charles McCrory. And

865
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: each of these people was wrongfully convicted due to bite

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00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: mark evidence. And there are countless other names that could

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00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: be added to this list that we haven't been able

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00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: to help yet. So with that, Charles is in your

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00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: thirty of this slow moving train wreck, you know, I

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00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: want to find out from you guys, is there any

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00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: steps that people can take as their petition. Is there someone?

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00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: What can people do?

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00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 2: We are appealing the case. We've partnered with some Alabama

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00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,439
Speaker 2: lawyers who are helping us do the best we can

875
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 2: to try to convince the appellate court that the trial

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00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: court will get it wrong. And so that's the next step.

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00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: And I think just the more people who know about

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00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 2: the case, the better.

879
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 3: Reshare the podcast the articles to those listeners in Alabama

880
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 3: to write into your lawmakers and question, you know why

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00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: Charles McCrory, an instant man, is still in prison and

882
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 3: this is correctable. Charles McCrory can still live the rest

883
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 3: of his life and be reunited with his family. So

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00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 3: I hope that listeners will help spread the word, help

885
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 3: put pressure on the decision makers to do the right thing.

886
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 2: We really want people in Alabama to know that this

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00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,439
Speaker 2: is happening in their backyard.

888
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 3: And this is not a right or a less issue.

889
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 3: This is a human rights issue. There should be no

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00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 3: politics in freeing the innocent.

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00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: So please do get involved. We'll put links in the

892
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: bio to action steps you can take. Again. Chris Fabricant,

893
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 1: go get the book Junk Science. Some of these stories

894
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: are just too crazy to be believed. But you'll understand

895
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 1: the issue so much better. And it's a great read

896
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: to read like a novel. And now we turn to

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00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 1: the part of our show that I know everyone looks

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00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: forward to like I do, which is called closing arguments.

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00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: And Chris, you know how it works. Charles was going

900
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 1: to tell you how it works right now, and Mark,

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00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: So basically I thank you closing arguments. I'm going to

902
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off and leave it on for each

903
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: of you guys to share any thoughts that you have,

904
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: anything we may have left out, or anything else you

905
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: want to say. So we'll go Chris, then over to

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00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: you Mark, and then of course mister McCrory, Charles, please

907
00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: close it out.

908
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 3: I'd like people to retain their skepticism and that it's

909
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 3: really important that we all serve on juries, that we

910
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 3: have skeptical jurors and that don't believe anything that somebody

911
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 3: tells you just because they're board certified or they're wearing

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00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 3: a white lab coat.

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00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: I want to just read a quote that I think

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00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 2: is important for people to keep in mind. You know,

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00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: Chris and I have mentioned a few times that we

916
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 2: represented a woman by the name of Shila Denton in

917
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: Georgia who was a bitemark case and in twenty twenty

918
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 2: Miss Denton was granted a new trial. This is died

919
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: in Waycross, Georgia, conservative part of Georgia, and the judge

920
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:42,879
Speaker 2: chief judge wrote, quote proven unreliable scientific evidence should never

921
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 2: serve as the basis of a conviction and should be

922
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 2: dealt with by the courts if and when it is found.

923
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 2: And like doctor Suveran, who we applaud for admitting his mistake,

924
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: like this judge who wrote this, who applaud for being

925
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 2: courageous enough to overturn a murder conviction because it was

926
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: based on proving unreliable scientific evidence. I just hope that

927
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 2: there are more judges and prosecutors out there who have

928
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 2: the courage that this judge did to see that and.

929
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 1: To enforce that.

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00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 4: Well. Again, I appreciate your interest in the case, and

931
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 4: I just say that I think I wrote this recent

932
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 4: but there should not be a finality in a case

933
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 4: where an innocent person is in prison. And I think

934
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 4: what some courts want to do is close the door.

935
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 4: This is not the only case we know of thirty

936
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,439
Speaker 4: something exoneries just from dental evidence alone, and how many

937
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 4: others are out there so juries. While they try to

938
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 4: make I think good decisions, they do not make perfect

939
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 4: decisions and there should be a real process for people.

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00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 4: Seriously look at this when people claim innocence, and I

941
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 4: appreciate groups like yourself and others that are working on that.

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00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to raw Conviction. I'd like to

943
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wardis,

944
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

945
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

946
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,720
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

947
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

948
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

949
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,959
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

950
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is

951
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with

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Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one