WEBVTT - Calculating Risks in a Creative Life, with Brian Koppelman 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:27.924 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business show about making better decisions. 0:00:28.084 --> 0:00:31.524 I'm Maria Kanikova. Nate Silver is not with us today, 0:00:32.004 --> 0:00:34.444 he is on a book tour, but we have an 0:00:34.484 --> 0:00:39.004 amazing guest instead, one of my dear friends, Brian Koppleman, 0:00:39.244 --> 0:00:43.084 who is everything I mean. He is a writer, he 0:00:43.204 --> 0:00:46.564 is a director, he's a producer, he is a musician, 0:00:46.724 --> 0:00:50.964 he is an actor. He is a kindred spirit and 0:00:51.004 --> 0:00:53.484 someone who thinks about risk in a lot of the 0:00:53.484 --> 0:00:56.124 same ways that I do. Because he also plays poker. 0:00:56.924 --> 0:01:00.124 I don't know how you know him. I originally knew 0:01:00.124 --> 0:01:03.444 who he was, as many of you probably do through Rounders, 0:01:04.044 --> 0:01:07.684 people who come to Brian more recently, probably no billions 0:01:07.724 --> 0:01:11.204 before Rounders, so many other things. That's just like the 0:01:11.244 --> 0:01:14.924 tip of an absolutely massive iceberg that we'll be talking 0:01:14.924 --> 0:01:23.164 about today. Brian, thank you so much for joining me. 0:01:23.884 --> 0:01:27.604 My absolute pleasure. And I think people now might know 0:01:27.684 --> 0:01:28.244 me from The Bear. 0:01:28.684 --> 0:01:31.684 Ah yes, and people might know you as the computer 0:01:32.124 --> 0:01:35.884 on the third season of The Bear. I just want 0:01:35.884 --> 0:01:38.564 to point out that you have a bicycle helmet on 0:01:38.604 --> 0:01:41.204 the table, So did you ride your bike here? Since 0:01:41.244 --> 0:01:44.564 we're talking about risky decision making, we're in New York 0:01:44.604 --> 0:01:45.604 by the way, we're in Manhattan. 0:01:45.644 --> 0:01:48.004 Yeah, we're in Manhattan. I made a decision a while ago. 0:01:49.564 --> 0:01:53.284 You know how you can come home and you're either 0:01:53.844 --> 0:01:56.044 whether you have somebody who you live with, or you 0:01:56.124 --> 0:01:59.884 talk to a lot of family member friend and they 0:01:59.924 --> 0:02:02.124 ask you if you had a good day. I decided 0:02:02.164 --> 0:02:03.844 a while ago that I wanted to be able to 0:02:03.924 --> 0:02:07.884 like understand what that meant for myself, not just leave 0:02:07.924 --> 0:02:12.924 that up to sort of an emotional thing or something 0:02:12.924 --> 0:02:14.964 that would happen in the middle of my day. So 0:02:15.004 --> 0:02:17.164 I decided, you know, if I do certain thing, if 0:02:17.204 --> 0:02:22.324 I journal, if I meditate, if I exercise, and I 0:02:22.324 --> 0:02:26.884 spend time with people that I love, I've had a 0:02:26.924 --> 0:02:29.364 good day because I've written something, I've moved my body, 0:02:29.404 --> 0:02:32.644 I've hugged somebody like those things. Well, but I don't know. 0:02:32.684 --> 0:02:35.524 Six months ago, some months ago, I decided, anytime I 0:02:35.604 --> 0:02:39.044 don't have to be on public transportation or in a 0:02:39.084 --> 0:02:42.684 cab or an uber in New York City, it's a 0:02:42.724 --> 0:02:45.604 great New York City day. And because it adds to 0:02:45.684 --> 0:02:49.124 all these other things, so and in looking at all, 0:02:49.524 --> 0:02:55.004 honestly looking at various risks, the rewards of riding a 0:02:55.044 --> 0:02:58.244 bike all the time and walking are really great. There's 0:02:58.844 --> 0:03:02.924 but there is this risk inherent in riding a bicycle 0:03:02.964 --> 0:03:05.764 in New York City. But you can really mitigate the 0:03:05.804 --> 0:03:08.204 worst of it. You can't eliminate it. You can mitigate 0:03:08.244 --> 0:03:10.524 the worst of it by wearing a helmet. Downside is 0:03:10.524 --> 0:03:12.404 you got to walk around looking like a goofball and 0:03:12.444 --> 0:03:15.124 it's really confusing, like what to do with the helmet 0:03:15.164 --> 0:03:17.404 sometimes and sometimes I put the helmet on and like 0:03:17.444 --> 0:03:21.844 there's not you know, socially, it's not great, especially if 0:03:21.844 --> 0:03:24.524 you like the older guy in the office complex or 0:03:24.564 --> 0:03:27.484 whatever and you get off the elevator still wearing your 0:03:27.524 --> 0:03:32.124 bike helmet. You know you are the fool for the day. 0:03:32.724 --> 0:03:35.684 You're someone who's from a creative industry, right, Like you 0:03:36.204 --> 0:03:40.924 don't come from the statistical background, and yet your way 0:03:40.964 --> 0:03:44.644 of thinking aut the world. You're someone who Your poker 0:03:44.684 --> 0:03:46.524 game was the first poker game I ever saw in 0:03:46.564 --> 0:03:49.804 my life because Rounders was the only time I had 0:03:49.844 --> 0:03:53.444 ever seen poker played because I wasn't into poker. You 0:03:53.524 --> 0:03:56.804 were into poker, right. The reason Rounders to this day 0:03:57.164 --> 0:04:00.364 is like the Poker movie is because you're actually a player. 0:04:00.604 --> 0:04:02.604 You love the game. You understand the game, you went 0:04:02.644 --> 0:04:04.644 to the clubs, you did the leg work, you did 0:04:04.724 --> 0:04:08.084 the research. But I think that the way that you 0:04:08.204 --> 0:04:11.204 think about the world actually does mirror that. 0:04:11.684 --> 0:04:15.564 So I just want to say, my creative and business 0:04:15.604 --> 0:04:17.924 partner and lifelong best friend, David Livina, and I did that. 0:04:17.964 --> 0:04:20.324 It's not just me. I just important for me to say, Well, 0:04:20.324 --> 0:04:21.524 it's right, but it's true. 0:04:21.604 --> 0:04:23.644 It's very important for you to say. And actually I 0:04:23.684 --> 0:04:25.564 would love to ask a question about that that was 0:04:25.564 --> 0:04:28.364 a risk at the beginning of your career, to say, 0:04:28.404 --> 0:04:30.284 I'm not going to do this by myself. I'm going 0:04:30.364 --> 0:04:33.644 to have a partner, because if you think about it, 0:04:33.684 --> 0:04:37.084 like creative partnerships are fraught, and you and David have 0:04:37.164 --> 0:04:38.924 been partners for how many years now. 0:04:38.804 --> 0:04:42.724 I mean yeah, professionally almost thirty years, and but best 0:04:42.724 --> 0:04:45.644 friends since we were kids, and I think you look 0:04:45.684 --> 0:04:48.644 back on it and yet if someone knew they were 0:04:48.684 --> 0:04:51.324 going to be able to really have this career at 0:04:51.324 --> 0:04:55.284 that time, though, you're not really thinking about downside risk 0:04:55.444 --> 0:04:58.004 other than to your friendship because your best friend like 0:04:58.044 --> 0:05:00.684 your brother, and so you're thinking about that. So you 0:05:00.684 --> 0:05:03.324 have to make you just sort of talk through a 0:05:03.404 --> 0:05:07.564 process but also we wrote that script together, and I think, 0:05:07.844 --> 0:05:10.004 you know, each of us just decide to go into 0:05:10.044 --> 0:05:12.844 it really open minded and open hearted, and it was like, 0:05:13.844 --> 0:05:20.084 let's let's write this thing together. And then as we 0:05:20.204 --> 0:05:23.804 did that, and as we felt like this creative partnership 0:05:24.484 --> 0:05:26.644 was what we'd hoped it would be, we were bringing 0:05:26.684 --> 0:05:31.124 out kind of the best of each other, it just 0:05:31.164 --> 0:05:34.324 made sense to roll in and continue. We've never had 0:05:34.404 --> 0:05:36.284 a signed piece of paper. 0:05:36.404 --> 0:05:38.604 I was I was just about to ask that. 0:05:38.684 --> 0:05:41.564 And you know, people will say you have to. We've 0:05:41.844 --> 0:05:45.444 signed many agreements together with other parties, meaning if a 0:05:45.564 --> 0:05:49.684 studio or network wants to engage us, we both have 0:05:49.764 --> 0:05:53.444 to sign that document, and we've signed leases, toget, We've 0:05:53.484 --> 0:05:56.284 signed many many things together. But David and I have 0:05:56.364 --> 0:05:59.004 never had more than a handshake and a hug agreement 0:05:59.044 --> 0:05:59.604 with each other. 0:05:59.764 --> 0:06:01.684 So you've never actually talked about and said this is 0:06:01.684 --> 0:06:03.164 going to be a fifty to fifty partnership. 0:06:03.204 --> 0:06:05.564 And yet well we've said those words to each other, 0:06:05.604 --> 0:06:06.644 everything's fifty to fifty. 0:06:06.684 --> 0:06:08.444 Of course, we've never written it down, never. 0:06:08.404 --> 0:06:13.244 Written it down. In fact, I think those conversations we 0:06:13.284 --> 0:06:14.884 didn't even email that to each other. I mean that 0:06:15.004 --> 0:06:17.684 was just like, we're fifty to fifty and everything, and 0:06:17.844 --> 0:06:19.684 they would it was. 0:06:20.804 --> 0:06:23.884 My mind is breaking right now, by the way, at 0:06:23.884 --> 0:06:26.444 that level of trust. Right, you know the types of 0:06:26.444 --> 0:06:28.724 topics that I write about, right, Yeah, you know. I've 0:06:28.724 --> 0:06:31.204 written about con artists. My next book is about cheating, 0:06:31.764 --> 0:06:35.164 and I have just come across so many instances where 0:06:35.204 --> 0:06:37.964 that just sours. And you've been doing this for thirty 0:06:37.964 --> 0:06:41.004 five years, You've never had a written piece of paper. 0:06:41.084 --> 0:06:43.564 You took that risk, and yet here you are. You're 0:06:43.644 --> 0:06:46.364 just such a beautiful testament to like the fact that 0:06:46.524 --> 0:06:49.924 not everyone sucks and that there's actually there are humans 0:06:49.924 --> 0:06:51.724 that you can take this risk with. But there's part 0:06:51.724 --> 0:06:53.204 of my mind. The reason I said my brain is 0:06:53.244 --> 0:06:56.564 breaking is because I would think that someone like you, 0:06:56.604 --> 0:06:59.964 who I respect so much and you're so smart, and 0:07:00.004 --> 0:07:02.084 you're so smart about these risks, I would think that 0:07:02.084 --> 0:07:03.724 you would say, you know, just in case, let's just 0:07:03.764 --> 0:07:05.164 sign this little piece of paper. 0:07:05.444 --> 0:07:09.964 I understand that way of thinking, and I would advise 0:07:10.844 --> 0:07:15.604 I might advise somebody, but I think if you can 0:07:15.644 --> 0:07:21.884 try to silence the voices that aren't your own inside you, right, 0:07:22.044 --> 0:07:25.964 if you can try and actually listen to the truth, 0:07:27.724 --> 0:07:30.964 you kind of do know, like your body kind of knows. 0:07:31.084 --> 0:07:34.244 Not in a woo woo way, I mean your instinct 0:07:34.244 --> 0:07:41.924 knows because of your brain sending these signals. And if 0:07:41.924 --> 0:07:45.964 I think about what the battle in life is, it's 0:07:45.964 --> 0:07:48.444 to become comfortable in your own skin. Because when you 0:07:48.524 --> 0:07:51.004 are able to have these moments of them and they're fleeting, 0:07:51.044 --> 0:07:53.164 and then maybe as you live a little bit and 0:07:53.204 --> 0:07:57.164 you work on it, they can last longer. But if 0:07:57.164 --> 0:08:00.004 you can get to a place where you have moments 0:08:00.724 --> 0:08:04.964 of actual calm, moments where you can actually listen to 0:08:05.004 --> 0:08:08.204 the best part of yourself, most alive part of yourself, 0:08:09.484 --> 0:08:11.324 you know when you need a piece of paper and 0:08:11.364 --> 0:08:14.724 when you don't. And especially for someone who studied consure, 0:08:14.964 --> 0:08:17.764 so now, well, I don't want to This is a 0:08:17.764 --> 0:08:21.724 proby Privo caster because I don't want to. I don't 0:08:21.764 --> 0:08:23.764 want to become willis shown in The Princess Bride and 0:08:24.244 --> 0:08:27.364 use search a logic. But it is true that if 0:08:27.404 --> 0:08:30.484 you know about cons it's easier to con you on 0:08:30.524 --> 0:08:33.324 a surface first level, meaning if you're someone who thinks, oh, 0:08:33.364 --> 0:08:35.444 I know what the wise guys do, then it's very 0:08:35.484 --> 0:08:37.484 easy for a wives guy to use that and play 0:08:37.524 --> 0:08:40.124 you sure, but I'm not talking about that kind of situation. 0:08:41.204 --> 0:08:45.524 But basically, I think David and I knew enough about 0:08:45.564 --> 0:08:48.964 each other to trust each other. And it wasn't a 0:08:49.004 --> 0:08:54.124 thin knowledge, it wasn't a quick knowledge. It was we 0:08:54.204 --> 0:08:57.644 had been through enough things and been there enough for 0:08:57.684 --> 0:09:00.404 one another and knew that that was the primacy, was 0:09:00.404 --> 0:09:04.844 to do right by the other person. Our wives were 0:09:04.884 --> 0:09:11.164 incredibly supportive, and nobody ever would have thought about those 0:09:11.284 --> 0:09:13.724 risks other than, like I say, to the friendship, but 0:09:14.044 --> 0:09:16.964 writing rounders are such joy. And then the way that 0:09:17.044 --> 0:09:20.684 it all came together, that we just knew we were 0:09:20.684 --> 0:09:22.404 off and running it, and it was actually David who 0:09:22.444 --> 0:09:25.284 had the inflection point. We finished the script and he 0:09:25.404 --> 0:09:30.244 sent it to a young manager in LA and the 0:09:30.324 --> 0:09:33.124 manager said, I know you wrote this with a partner. 0:09:33.204 --> 0:09:37.404 I can spin it one of two ways, and Dave said, no, 0:09:37.404 --> 0:09:39.564 I spin it like I wrote it with my partner 0:09:39.564 --> 0:09:41.244 and we wrote it together, not like that guy. I 0:09:41.324 --> 0:09:43.724 know about poker, And what I see is like this 0:09:43.764 --> 0:09:47.364 is we did this together, and I wanted to reflect. 0:09:46.964 --> 0:09:50.884 That, Yeah, and that's amazing, and that actually, I think 0:09:50.964 --> 0:09:55.164 is a really important reminder for listeners of our podcast. 0:09:55.324 --> 0:09:59.444 Because we always talk about the herd statistics and kind 0:09:59.484 --> 0:10:02.644 of those types of things, and so it is a 0:10:02.644 --> 0:10:05.164 good reminder that the human element is very much a 0:10:05.164 --> 0:10:06.844 part of it, you know, And that's I mean, I'm 0:10:06.844 --> 0:10:10.084 a psychologist, Nate's the numbers guy, so to me like that, 0:10:10.084 --> 0:10:13.524 that is an important thing to have in the back 0:10:13.564 --> 0:10:16.564 of your mind because it's so easy to get lost 0:10:17.324 --> 0:10:20.164 in the numbers, in the statistics, and it's it's really 0:10:20.204 --> 0:10:21.724 good to have that sort of a reminder. 0:10:21.844 --> 0:10:23.404 You can't be in the art. So but if you're 0:10:23.404 --> 0:10:25.804 in the arts, So what you said is true. 0:10:26.084 --> 0:10:26.844 You went into the arts. 0:10:27.044 --> 0:10:31.844 Yes, what you said is true that on the one hand, 0:10:32.604 --> 0:10:36.964 you know me as your friend. You understand that I've 0:10:36.964 --> 0:10:40.004 made a study of strategic thinking, that I can read people, 0:10:40.084 --> 0:10:43.764 I can read situations. But when you make a decision 0:10:44.444 --> 0:10:47.204 that you won't be happy unless you're in the arts, 0:10:48.044 --> 0:10:51.924 and for me, it was you know, I knew if 0:10:51.964 --> 0:10:53.684 I at a certain point in my life, like if 0:10:53.724 --> 0:10:57.364 I didn't try, I wouldn't be a good father or husband. 0:10:57.364 --> 0:10:59.364 And because I knew that I would have turned bitter, 0:10:59.884 --> 0:11:02.164 and that if I turn bitter, you know, I knew 0:11:02.164 --> 0:11:04.324 if I let the kind of a creative block happen, 0:11:04.404 --> 0:11:06.164 it would be like a creative death, and like any 0:11:06.204 --> 0:11:09.364 other death, the toxicity would lose onto those I love. 0:11:09.484 --> 0:11:12.684 Then I just didn't want that. So I think there 0:11:12.724 --> 0:11:17.644 are times where you have to turn off rationality and 0:11:17.724 --> 0:11:20.844 reason in a way that you can make function for 0:11:20.924 --> 0:11:23.964 your life. So you know, so as I hear people 0:11:24.044 --> 0:11:26.564 like Scott Galloway, who's a smart guy but with say 0:11:27.084 --> 0:11:29.324 it's not about what you want to do. You got 0:11:29.324 --> 0:11:33.644 to pick something you're good at, and well, I disagree. 0:11:34.484 --> 0:11:36.724 I think figuring out what brings you joy, Like guess 0:11:36.764 --> 0:11:38.764 this thing I said about where you're working from the 0:11:38.764 --> 0:11:41.884 most alive part of yourself is valuable. But like, I 0:11:41.884 --> 0:11:46.204 didn't quit my job to write the first script. Somehow 0:11:46.444 --> 0:11:52.804 I was, I think lucky enough to figure out, well, 0:11:52.844 --> 0:11:55.244 if I just take two hours a day and really 0:11:55.244 --> 0:11:57.404 give it everything I have for those two hours a day, 0:11:57.924 --> 0:11:59.724 I don't have to put all the pressure on myself 0:12:00.004 --> 0:12:02.884 that I've quit my job or that I've put my 0:12:03.004 --> 0:12:07.884 family in jeopardy. I can just work. And I knew then, Okay, 0:12:08.004 --> 0:12:11.124 I feel really alive doing that. I'm going to keep 0:12:11.164 --> 0:12:13.404 doing this whether this thing sells or not, whether we 0:12:13.484 --> 0:12:15.524 can make a career out of this or not, And 0:12:15.564 --> 0:12:18.324 in fact, doing it allows me to do my job 0:12:19.084 --> 0:12:22.844 in a much better spirit, more effectively than when I 0:12:22.884 --> 0:12:25.844 was doing it and daydreaming about being something else. So 0:12:25.964 --> 0:12:29.244 I could not make it an all or nothing proposition. 0:12:29.684 --> 0:12:32.884 I could mitigate certain parts of the risk so that 0:12:32.964 --> 0:12:34.644 I didn't have to think about the risk. 0:12:35.044 --> 0:12:37.844 Yeah, I think that's a really important lesson. Let's take 0:12:37.884 --> 0:12:40.884 a quick ad break and then we will come back 0:12:40.924 --> 0:12:44.324 to talking about why sometimes to take the biggest risks, 0:12:44.364 --> 0:12:46.844 you need to actually not take the risk that other 0:12:46.884 --> 0:13:07.204 people talk about. So, Brian, I think that that's an 0:13:07.284 --> 0:13:10.284 incredibly important point. I also so did not quit my 0:13:10.364 --> 0:13:12.684 day job when I was working on my first book. 0:13:13.124 --> 0:13:17.164 I knew that I wanted to write. And you know, 0:13:17.204 --> 0:13:19.164 the advice I give to young writers when they ask 0:13:19.244 --> 0:13:21.524 me is I'm like, unless like you know that you 0:13:21.604 --> 0:13:24.444 can't not do it, don't do it because if you 0:13:24.484 --> 0:13:27.804 don't have that fire, it's a shitty way of making 0:13:27.804 --> 0:13:30.004 a living. Right you don't have I mean, so you're 0:13:30.364 --> 0:13:32.484 in the director's guild, the writer's guild, so you have 0:13:32.524 --> 0:13:35.364 health insurance, but you know, if you're just becoming a 0:13:35.404 --> 0:13:39.484 freelance writer, no health insurance, no W two like no security. 0:13:39.924 --> 0:13:43.044 I have to plan for like a year ahead because 0:13:43.444 --> 0:13:46.364 I might have a month where I have an insane 0:13:46.404 --> 0:13:48.164 amount of income and then a month where I have 0:13:48.404 --> 0:13:51.004 zero income right where I just don't make anything, and 0:13:51.044 --> 0:13:53.444 I don't know if I'm going to you know, I can't. 0:13:53.884 --> 0:13:56.524 It's to this day, right, I have this kind of 0:13:56.844 --> 0:13:59.644 variation in what I earn, and so I have this, 0:13:59.804 --> 0:14:01.484 like I have to have this in savings, I have 0:14:01.524 --> 0:14:03.204 to have this. I have to have this, like I 0:14:03.284 --> 0:14:06.324 need to know that I can pay my mortgage for. 0:14:06.364 --> 0:14:08.604 The next because you're making this big real yes. 0:14:08.404 --> 0:14:10.764 Because I'm making this big risk. And when I was 0:14:10.804 --> 0:14:12.724 working on my first book, so I went to grad 0:14:12.724 --> 0:14:15.004 school for psychology and everyone's like, Oh, that's amazing. You 0:14:15.004 --> 0:14:16.404 wanted to be a professor. I was like, no, I 0:14:16.404 --> 0:14:19.044 wanted to be a writer. I did that so that 0:14:19.124 --> 0:14:22.764 I had the stability and the brain space to be 0:14:22.844 --> 0:14:25.844 able to work on my first book. And that's why 0:14:25.924 --> 0:14:27.044 I went to grad school. 0:14:27.364 --> 0:14:29.564 Yeah, it's funny. I don't think about it in the 0:14:29.644 --> 0:14:32.044 terms of de risking, but it is. You can take 0:14:32.044 --> 0:14:34.564 this giant risk if you can find ways to d 0:14:34.804 --> 0:14:38.004 risk along the way to it. But you know, you're 0:14:38.044 --> 0:14:40.924 you can be in the Writer's Guild, but to keep 0:14:40.964 --> 0:14:43.164 your health insurance, health insurance the whole time, so you can, 0:14:43.364 --> 0:14:45.444 I'm saying, I can, I can. I know you're I 0:14:45.484 --> 0:14:49.684 could have now. Yeah, you know we sold Rounders in 0:14:49.724 --> 0:14:55.684 nineteen ninety seven. Wow, so like so since then, Yeah, 0:14:55.724 --> 0:14:59.644 it's amazing, But we managed to stay in the whole 0:14:59.684 --> 0:15:02.724 time and to you know, always have it, but you 0:15:02.804 --> 0:15:04.684 have you're aware of it. In the years that are bad, 0:15:04.724 --> 0:15:07.004 you're really aware of being able to work enough so 0:15:07.044 --> 0:15:10.364 that you get credit for that core so that that 0:15:10.484 --> 0:15:14.684 goes toward your health and benefits. And then if you're 0:15:14.684 --> 0:15:17.404 in it long enough, you have lifetime. But it you know, 0:15:17.524 --> 0:15:19.004 takes twenty years. 0:15:19.164 --> 0:15:22.524 Yeah, And I think that those are all important things 0:15:22.524 --> 0:15:25.284 to realize. So you knew that you wanted to be 0:15:25.284 --> 0:15:28.244 in a creative field, and a creative field is an 0:15:28.244 --> 0:15:30.684 incredibly These aren't the risks that we normally talk about 0:15:30.724 --> 0:15:32.524 on this show. But I think it's so important to 0:15:32.524 --> 0:15:36.404 realize that you're taking huge risks and the things that 0:15:36.684 --> 0:15:39.964 so Rounders you wrote on spec so for people who 0:15:39.964 --> 0:15:42.564 don't know what that means, you weren't paid. 0:15:42.484 --> 0:15:44.964 Well we had there's a yeah, we weren't. But there's 0:15:45.004 --> 0:15:47.404 a great little story that's perfect for this show, which 0:15:47.444 --> 0:15:50.364 is because I was in the music business before that. 0:15:50.524 --> 0:15:55.524 I knew some people who were attendant to the movie business. 0:15:56.204 --> 0:15:59.124 And Dave and I had the idea for rounders, and 0:15:59.164 --> 0:16:04.884 he met somebody who we told the idea to a 0:16:04.924 --> 0:16:13.484 director producer, and that director producer offered us five thousand dollars, 0:16:14.084 --> 0:16:17.004 and Dave was bartending and offered us five thousand dollars. 0:16:17.684 --> 0:16:18.804 I bartended too. 0:16:18.764 --> 0:16:22.204 Yeah, five thousand dollars if we would write the script 0:16:22.284 --> 0:16:29.484 and then he and his partner, the director producer guy. 0:16:29.564 --> 0:16:33.324 He and his partner would own half of the script. 0:16:33.444 --> 0:16:35.644 So if we then wrote the script and they were 0:16:35.644 --> 0:16:39.044 able to sell it, we would split it fifty to fifty. 0:16:39.164 --> 0:16:41.604 And there was all this other stuff. Oh no, well, 0:16:41.684 --> 0:16:43.964 it was very exciting. You know, someone offered money, and 0:16:44.044 --> 0:16:45.684 David had been wanting to do this and he met 0:16:45.724 --> 0:16:48.804 this person, and you know, he'd wanted to have a 0:16:48.844 --> 0:16:50.684 career at this. I came through it a little later, 0:16:53.004 --> 0:16:56.444 but I knew someone who worked. I knew someone who 0:16:56.444 --> 0:16:59.964 connected me to a woman named Rachel Harvitz, who was 0:17:00.084 --> 0:17:02.004 at Fine line, which is part of a new line. 0:17:02.164 --> 0:17:04.684 She's a great Academy Award winning producer now, but at 0:17:04.684 --> 0:17:07.324 the time she wasn't. She was an executive at a 0:17:07.364 --> 0:17:10.724 company and her brother was in the Beastie Boys, and 0:17:10.764 --> 0:17:15.564 her dad he's famous playwright, oh dad, And yeah, but 0:17:15.844 --> 0:17:19.084 Rachel's super smart. And I smoke got a meeting with her. 0:17:19.124 --> 0:17:21.164 David and I went up and met with her, and 0:17:21.204 --> 0:17:23.244 she's like, tell me the situation, but don't tell me 0:17:23.364 --> 0:17:26.364 your idea. Just tell me the situation. And we told 0:17:26.364 --> 0:17:29.044 her the situation and she said, Okay, well, I can 0:17:29.084 --> 0:17:30.884 tell that like the twenty five hundred bucks would be 0:17:30.884 --> 0:17:33.444 good for EACHU coppleman. You need it less you have 0:17:33.444 --> 0:17:35.124 a job, but I could see that it would be 0:17:35.164 --> 0:17:39.244 like a good thing. But I'll tell you this, if 0:17:39.244 --> 0:17:43.364 with you all having done nothing and having no track record, 0:17:44.884 --> 0:17:48.124 you have a story and an idea that somebody who 0:17:48.164 --> 0:17:51.124 also isn't someone who's like filled with money, they're not 0:17:51.204 --> 0:17:53.964 a huge person. If they're willing to give you five 0:17:54.044 --> 0:17:58.124 thousand dollars, you should risk losing that five thousand dollars 0:17:58.364 --> 0:18:02.604 and write that script on spec because if you then 0:18:02.724 --> 0:18:04.804 sell it and you guys control it, you'll have a 0:18:04.844 --> 0:18:08.164 whole career. And we left her office and just looked 0:18:08.164 --> 0:18:09.844 at each other and went, well, that's what we're doing. 0:18:10.164 --> 0:18:13.004 That's such great advice. You're you're so you know that 0:18:13.204 --> 0:18:15.364 the role of luck is something that I think about 0:18:15.404 --> 0:18:17.804 a lot. Of course, that I think is so crucial. 0:18:18.124 --> 0:18:20.924 What a lucky kind of moment that that that you 0:18:21.004 --> 0:18:23.964 had that connection and that you had that conversation, because 0:18:24.364 --> 0:18:27.284 your career would look so different if you had sold 0:18:27.364 --> 0:18:29.564 fifty percent from the get go. 0:18:29.884 --> 0:18:32.124 Oh for sure, it would have been a different ways. 0:18:32.564 --> 0:18:36.604 And now that interestingly, because Dave's instincts are great to 0:18:36.724 --> 0:18:39.604 the person David met ended up becoming a very big 0:18:39.644 --> 0:18:43.284 person in Hollywood, and we have a great relationship with him. 0:18:43.604 --> 0:18:46.684 So Dave did spot up on somebody who was going 0:18:46.724 --> 0:18:49.324 to go the distance, but all of our careers would 0:18:49.324 --> 0:18:51.724 have been That guy then went and directed a small 0:18:51.764 --> 0:18:54.884 movie where the actress in it got nominated for an 0:18:54.924 --> 0:18:58.284 oscar and his career was off and running, and we've 0:18:58.364 --> 0:19:01.764 often thought about sort of how it all would have gone, 0:19:02.204 --> 0:19:04.444 could have gone differently. So there's the luck element, but 0:19:04.484 --> 0:19:06.764 also truly it was a risk question. Yeah, it was 0:19:06.804 --> 0:19:09.244 like you know, and yeah, I remember was like, well, 0:19:09.564 --> 0:19:11.724 you guys could get ten grand, you know if you counter, 0:19:12.284 --> 0:19:14.324 but I wouldn't counter. No walk away. 0:19:14.524 --> 0:19:14.764 Yep. 0:19:14.924 --> 0:19:16.644 It's a hard piece of advice to give, by the way, 0:19:17.004 --> 0:19:19.644 for sure, a hard piece of advice to give, having 0:19:19.644 --> 0:19:22.964 been as you have on any other chair. But we 0:19:22.964 --> 0:19:25.924 were so grateful and I never miss an opportunity to 0:19:25.964 --> 0:19:29.364 thank Rachel for giving us that advice. 0:19:29.524 --> 0:19:31.924 It is. It is wonderful advice, and I think that 0:19:33.284 --> 0:19:37.084 it's advice that everyone can hear at every single stage 0:19:37.244 --> 0:19:41.124 of their career because that power to like to realize 0:19:41.124 --> 0:19:45.364 that you can walk away, that you actually have the risk, 0:19:45.564 --> 0:19:48.164 but you have the downside, but you also have the upside. 0:19:48.444 --> 0:19:50.444 Yeah, it's important to say, like both Dave and I 0:19:50.484 --> 0:19:53.484 had college paid for and I think that that's a 0:19:53.604 --> 0:19:57.124 huge advantage that we had. We and I can never 0:19:57.284 --> 0:20:00.684 And that's not sort of like that's something I've thought 0:20:00.724 --> 0:20:02.724 about and said for a long time, sort of before 0:20:02.844 --> 0:20:05.964 it was in vogue to have to always sort of 0:20:06.284 --> 0:20:08.884 explain away these parts, you know, just but it is 0:20:08.964 --> 0:20:12.564 just the fact, sure my father was able to pay 0:20:13.164 --> 0:20:15.804 for college for me. That gave me, when you talk 0:20:15.804 --> 0:20:20.524 about luck, that gave me the ability to make decisions, yeah, 0:20:21.444 --> 0:20:24.324 based on a series of things that were quite different 0:20:24.364 --> 0:20:25.884 than if I had one hundred thousand dollars worth of 0:20:25.924 --> 0:20:28.724 debt that I had to satisfy. I did right, and 0:20:29.724 --> 0:20:33.844 that shapes certain decisions, right and absolutely so for me. 0:20:34.004 --> 0:20:38.564 That gift, it's a huge gift, is a gigantic advantage. 0:20:38.684 --> 0:20:42.364 You know, we talked about earlier, not on this pod, 0:20:42.404 --> 0:20:44.244 but when you and I were just having a conversation. 0:20:45.044 --> 0:20:47.604 You had asked me about having gone to Harvard, right, 0:20:47.804 --> 0:20:50.564 and whether you thought that it still had some sort 0:20:50.564 --> 0:20:53.844 of cachet, some advantage because things are changing so much. 0:20:54.524 --> 0:20:57.044 And I thought about that question after you asked me, 0:20:57.684 --> 0:21:00.444 and my answer is that it depends on who you are. 0:21:00.564 --> 0:21:03.844 For someone like me, yes, it does. Because I wasn't 0:21:03.884 --> 0:21:07.124 born here. I'm generation zero, I knew nobody. You know. 0:21:07.204 --> 0:21:09.844 I'm an immigrant, like I'm a Russian Jewish immigrant, right, 0:21:10.884 --> 0:21:16.484 and having that degree confers a certain kind of it. 0:21:16.604 --> 0:21:18.644 Just it gives me a check mark that I wouldn't 0:21:18.644 --> 0:21:21.764 otherwise have that gets me through the door. How did 0:21:21.844 --> 0:21:26.004 I get into television? My first job in television was 0:21:26.124 --> 0:21:28.484 as a producer. Well, I didn't start as a producer. 0:21:28.484 --> 0:21:32.244 I became a producer for Charlie Rose, and that was, 0:21:32.284 --> 0:21:34.324 you know, that was my kind of before I went 0:21:34.324 --> 0:21:37.004 to grad school. And the only reason I was able 0:21:37.044 --> 0:21:39.404 to get that job was through the Harvard Network because 0:21:39.404 --> 0:21:42.724 there were Harvard people working at Charlie Rose who picked 0:21:42.724 --> 0:21:46.084 my resume and got me that interview, and then you know, 0:21:46.124 --> 0:21:47.044