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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business show about making better decisions.

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Speaker 1: I'm Maria Kanikova. Nate Silver is not with us today,

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Speaker 1: he is on a book tour, but we have an

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Speaker 1: amazing guest instead, one of my dear friends, Brian Koppleman,

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Speaker 1: who is everything I mean. He is a writer, he

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Speaker 1: is a director, he's a producer, he is a musician,

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Speaker 1: he is an actor. He is a kindred spirit and

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Speaker 1: someone who thinks about risk in a lot of the

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Speaker 1: same ways that I do. Because he also plays poker.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you know him. I originally knew

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Speaker 1: who he was, as many of you probably do through Rounders,

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Speaker 1: people who come to Brian more recently, probably no billions

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Speaker 1: before Rounders, so many other things. That's just like the

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Speaker 1: tip of an absolutely massive iceberg that we'll be talking

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Speaker 1: about today. Brian, thank you so much for joining me.

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Speaker 2: My absolute pleasure. And I think people now might know

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Speaker 2: me from The Bear.

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Speaker 1: Ah yes, and people might know you as the computer

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Speaker 1: on the third season of The Bear. I just want

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Speaker 1: to point out that you have a bicycle helmet on

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Speaker 1: the table, So did you ride your bike here? Since

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Speaker 1: we're talking about risky decision making, we're in New York

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Speaker 1: by the way, we're in Manhattan.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in Manhattan. I made a decision a while ago.

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Speaker 2: You know how you can come home and you're either

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Speaker 2: whether you have somebody who you live with, or you

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Speaker 2: talk to a lot of family member friend and they

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Speaker 2: ask you if you had a good day. I decided

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Speaker 2: a while ago that I wanted to be able to

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Speaker 2: like understand what that meant for myself, not just leave

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Speaker 2: that up to sort of an emotional thing or something

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Speaker 2: that would happen in the middle of my day. So

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Speaker 2: I decided, you know, if I do certain thing, if

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Speaker 2: I journal, if I meditate, if I exercise, and I

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Speaker 2: spend time with people that I love, I've had a

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Speaker 2: good day because I've written something, I've moved my body,

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Speaker 2: I've hugged somebody like those things. Well, but I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Six months ago, some months ago, I decided, anytime I

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Speaker 2: don't have to be on public transportation or in a

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Speaker 2: cab or an uber in New York City, it's a

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Speaker 2: great New York City day. And because it adds to

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Speaker 2: all these other things, so and in looking at all,

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Speaker 2: honestly looking at various risks, the rewards of riding a

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Speaker 2: bike all the time and walking are really great. There's

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Speaker 2: but there is this risk inherent in riding a bicycle

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Speaker 2: in New York City. But you can really mitigate the

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Speaker 2: worst of it. You can't eliminate it. You can mitigate

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Speaker 2: the worst of it by wearing a helmet. Downside is

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Speaker 2: you got to walk around looking like a goofball and

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Speaker 2: it's really confusing, like what to do with the helmet

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Speaker 2: sometimes and sometimes I put the helmet on and like

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Speaker 2: there's not you know, socially, it's not great, especially if

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Speaker 2: you like the older guy in the office complex or

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Speaker 2: whatever and you get off the elevator still wearing your

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Speaker 2: bike helmet. You know you are the fool for the day.

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Speaker 1: You're someone who's from a creative industry, right, Like you

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Speaker 1: don't come from the statistical background, and yet your way

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Speaker 1: of thinking aut the world. You're someone who Your poker

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Speaker 1: game was the first poker game I ever saw in

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Speaker 1: my life because Rounders was the only time I had

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Speaker 1: ever seen poker played because I wasn't into poker. You

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Speaker 1: were into poker, right. The reason Rounders to this day

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Speaker 1: is like the Poker movie is because you're actually a player.

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Speaker 1: You love the game. You understand the game, you went

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Speaker 1: to the clubs, you did the leg work, you did

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Speaker 1: the research. But I think that the way that you

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Speaker 1: think about the world actually does mirror that.

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Speaker 2: So I just want to say, my creative and business

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Speaker 2: partner and lifelong best friend, David Livina, and I did that.

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Speaker 2: It's not just me. I just important for me to say, Well,

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Speaker 2: it's right, but it's true.

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Speaker 1: It's very important for you to say. And actually I

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Speaker 1: would love to ask a question about that that was

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Speaker 1: a risk at the beginning of your career, to say,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this by myself. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to have a partner, because if you think about it,

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Speaker 1: like creative partnerships are fraught, and you and David have

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Speaker 1: been partners for how many years now.

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Speaker 2: I mean yeah, professionally almost thirty years, and but best

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Speaker 2: friends since we were kids, and I think you look

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Speaker 2: back on it and yet if someone knew they were

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Speaker 2: going to be able to really have this career at

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Speaker 2: that time, though, you're not really thinking about downside risk

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Speaker 2: other than to your friendship because your best friend like

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Speaker 2: your brother, and so you're thinking about that. So you

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Speaker 2: have to make you just sort of talk through a

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Speaker 2: process but also we wrote that script together, and I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, each of us just decide to go into

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Speaker 2: it really open minded and open hearted, and it was like,

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Speaker 2: let's let's write this thing together. And then as we

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Speaker 2: did that, and as we felt like this creative partnership

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Speaker 2: was what we'd hoped it would be, we were bringing

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Speaker 2: out kind of the best of each other, it just

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Speaker 2: made sense to roll in and continue. We've never had

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Speaker 2: a signed piece of paper.

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Speaker 1: I was I was just about to ask that.

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Speaker 2: And you know, people will say you have to. We've

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Speaker 2: signed many agreements together with other parties, meaning if a

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Speaker 2: studio or network wants to engage us, we both have

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Speaker 2: to sign that document, and we've signed leases, toget, We've

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Speaker 2: signed many many things together. But David and I have

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Speaker 2: never had more than a handshake and a hug agreement

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Speaker 2: with each other.

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Speaker 1: So you've never actually talked about and said this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a fifty to fifty partnership.

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Speaker 2: And yet well we've said those words to each other,

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Speaker 2: everything's fifty to fifty.

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Speaker 1: Of course, we've never written it down, never.

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Speaker 2: Written it down. In fact, I think those conversations we

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Speaker 2: didn't even email that to each other. I mean that

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Speaker 2: was just like, we're fifty to fifty and everything, and

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Speaker 2: they would it was.

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Speaker 1: My mind is breaking right now, by the way, at

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Speaker 1: that level of trust. Right, you know the types of

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Speaker 1: topics that I write about, right, Yeah, you know. I've

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Speaker 1: written about con artists. My next book is about cheating,

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Speaker 1: and I have just come across so many instances where

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Speaker 1: that just sours. And you've been doing this for thirty

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Speaker 1: five years, You've never had a written piece of paper.

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Speaker 1: You took that risk, and yet here you are. You're

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Speaker 1: just such a beautiful testament to like the fact that

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Speaker 1: not everyone sucks and that there's actually there are humans

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Speaker 1: that you can take this risk with. But there's part

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Speaker 1: of my mind. The reason I said my brain is

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Speaker 1: breaking is because I would think that someone like you,

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Speaker 1: who I respect so much and you're so smart, and

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Speaker 1: you're so smart about these risks, I would think that

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Speaker 1: you would say, you know, just in case, let's just

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Speaker 1: sign this little piece of paper.

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Speaker 2: I understand that way of thinking, and I would advise

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Speaker 2: I might advise somebody, but I think if you can

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Speaker 2: try to silence the voices that aren't your own inside you, right,

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Speaker 2: if you can try and actually listen to the truth,

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Speaker 2: you kind of do know, like your body kind of knows.

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Speaker 2: Not in a woo woo way, I mean your instinct

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Speaker 2: knows because of your brain sending these signals. And if

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Speaker 2: I think about what the battle in life is, it's

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Speaker 2: to become comfortable in your own skin. Because when you

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Speaker 2: are able to have these moments of them and they're fleeting,

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Speaker 2: and then maybe as you live a little bit and

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Speaker 2: you work on it, they can last longer. But if

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Speaker 2: you can get to a place where you have moments

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Speaker 2: of actual calm, moments where you can actually listen to

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Speaker 2: the best part of yourself, most alive part of yourself,

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Speaker 2: you know when you need a piece of paper and

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Speaker 2: when you don't. And especially for someone who studied consure,

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Speaker 2: so now, well, I don't want to This is a

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Speaker 2: proby Privo caster because I don't want to. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to become willis shown in The Princess Bride and

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Speaker 2: use search a logic. But it is true that if

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Speaker 2: you know about cons it's easier to con you on

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Speaker 2: a surface first level, meaning if you're someone who thinks, oh,

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Speaker 2: I know what the wise guys do, then it's very

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Speaker 2: easy for a wives guy to use that and play

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Speaker 2: you sure, but I'm not talking about that kind of situation.

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Speaker 2: But basically, I think David and I knew enough about

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Speaker 2: each other to trust each other. And it wasn't a

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Speaker 2: thin knowledge, it wasn't a quick knowledge. It was we

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Speaker 2: had been through enough things and been there enough for

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Speaker 2: one another and knew that that was the primacy, was

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Speaker 2: to do right by the other person. Our wives were

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Speaker 2: incredibly supportive, and nobody ever would have thought about those

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Speaker 2: risks other than, like I say, to the friendship, but

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Speaker 2: writing rounders are such joy. And then the way that

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Speaker 2: it all came together, that we just knew we were

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Speaker 2: off and running it, and it was actually David who

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Speaker 2: had the inflection point. We finished the script and he

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Speaker 2: sent it to a young manager in LA and the

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Speaker 2: manager said, I know you wrote this with a partner.

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Speaker 2: I can spin it one of two ways, and Dave said, no,

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Speaker 2: I spin it like I wrote it with my partner

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Speaker 2: and we wrote it together, not like that guy. I

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Speaker 2: know about poker, And what I see is like this

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Speaker 2: is we did this together, and I wanted to reflect.

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Speaker 1: That, Yeah, and that's amazing, and that actually, I think

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Speaker 1: is a really important reminder for listeners of our podcast.

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Speaker 1: Because we always talk about the herd statistics and kind

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Speaker 1: of those types of things, and so it is a

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Speaker 1: good reminder that the human element is very much a

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Speaker 1: part of it, you know, And that's I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: a psychologist, Nate's the numbers guy, so to me like that,

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Speaker 1: that is an important thing to have in the back

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Speaker 1: of your mind because it's so easy to get lost

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Speaker 1: in the numbers, in the statistics, and it's it's really

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Speaker 1: good to have that sort of a reminder.

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Speaker 2: You can't be in the art. So but if you're

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Speaker 2: in the arts, So what you said is true.

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Speaker 1: You went into the arts.

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Speaker 2: Yes, what you said is true that on the one hand,

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Speaker 2: you know me as your friend. You understand that I've

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Speaker 2: made a study of strategic thinking, that I can read people,

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Speaker 2: I can read situations. But when you make a decision

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Speaker 2: that you won't be happy unless you're in the arts,

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Speaker 2: and for me, it was you know, I knew if

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Speaker 2: I at a certain point in my life, like if

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Speaker 2: I didn't try, I wouldn't be a good father or husband.

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Speaker 2: And because I knew that I would have turned bitter,

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Speaker 2: and that if I turn bitter, you know, I knew

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Speaker 2: if I let the kind of a creative block happen,

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Speaker 2: it would be like a creative death, and like any

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Speaker 2: other death, the toxicity would lose onto those I love.

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Speaker 2: Then I just didn't want that. So I think there

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Speaker 2: are times where you have to turn off rationality and

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Speaker 2: reason in a way that you can make function for

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Speaker 2: your life. So you know, so as I hear people

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Speaker 2: like Scott Galloway, who's a smart guy but with say

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Speaker 2: it's not about what you want to do. You got

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Speaker 2: to pick something you're good at, and well, I disagree.

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Speaker 2: I think figuring out what brings you joy, Like guess

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Speaker 2: this thing I said about where you're working from the

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Speaker 2: most alive part of yourself is valuable. But like, I

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Speaker 2: didn't quit my job to write the first script. Somehow

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Speaker 2: I was, I think lucky enough to figure out, well,

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Speaker 2: if I just take two hours a day and really

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Speaker 2: give it everything I have for those two hours a day,

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Speaker 2: I don't have to put all the pressure on myself

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Speaker 2: that I've quit my job or that I've put my

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Speaker 2: family in jeopardy. I can just work. And I knew then, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I feel really alive doing that. I'm going to keep

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Speaker 2: doing this whether this thing sells or not, whether we

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Speaker 2: can make a career out of this or not, And

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Speaker 2: in fact, doing it allows me to do my job

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Speaker 2: in a much better spirit, more effectively than when I

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Speaker 2: was doing it and daydreaming about being something else. So

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Speaker 2: I could not make it an all or nothing proposition.

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Speaker 2: I could mitigate certain parts of the risk so that

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Speaker 2: I didn't have to think about the risk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really important lesson. Let's take

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Speaker 1: a quick ad break and then we will come back

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Speaker 1: to talking about why sometimes to take the biggest risks,

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Speaker 1: you need to actually not take the risk that other

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Speaker 1: people talk about. So, Brian, I think that that's an

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Speaker 1: incredibly important point. I also so did not quit my

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Speaker 1: day job when I was working on my first book.

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Speaker 1: I knew that I wanted to write. And you know,

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Speaker 1: the advice I give to young writers when they ask

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Speaker 1: me is I'm like, unless like you know that you

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Speaker 1: can't not do it, don't do it because if you

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Speaker 1: don't have that fire, it's a shitty way of making

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Speaker 1: a living. Right you don't have I mean, so you're

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Speaker 1: in the director's guild, the writer's guild, so you have

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Speaker 1: health insurance, but you know, if you're just becoming a

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Speaker 1: freelance writer, no health insurance, no W two like no security.

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Speaker 1: I have to plan for like a year ahead because

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Speaker 1: I might have a month where I have an insane

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Speaker 1: amount of income and then a month where I have

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Speaker 1: zero income right where I just don't make anything, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm going to you know, I can't.

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Speaker 1: It's to this day, right, I have this kind of

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Speaker 1: variation in what I earn, and so I have this,

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Speaker 1: like I have to have this in savings, I have

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Speaker 1: to have this. I have to have this, like I

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Speaker 1: need to know that I can pay my mortgage for.

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Speaker 2: The next because you're making this big real yes.

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Speaker 1: Because I'm making this big risk. And when I was

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Speaker 1: working on my first book, so I went to grad

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Speaker 1: school for psychology and everyone's like, Oh, that's amazing. You

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Speaker 1: wanted to be a professor. I was like, no, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to be a writer. I did that so that

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Speaker 1: I had the stability and the brain space to be

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Speaker 1: able to work on my first book. And that's why

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Speaker 1: I went to grad school.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. I don't think about it in the

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Speaker 2: terms of de risking, but it is. You can take

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Speaker 2: this giant risk if you can find ways to d

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Speaker 2: risk along the way to it. But you know, you're

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Speaker 2: you can be in the Writer's Guild, but to keep

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Speaker 2: your health insurance, health insurance the whole time, so you can,

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Speaker 2: I'm saying, I can, I can. I know you're I

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Speaker 2: could have now. Yeah, you know we sold Rounders in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven. Wow, so like so since then, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's amazing, But we managed to stay in the whole

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Speaker 2: time and to you know, always have it, but you

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Speaker 2: have you're aware of it. In the years that are bad,

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Speaker 2: you're really aware of being able to work enough so

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Speaker 2: that you get credit for that core so that that

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Speaker 2: goes toward your health and benefits. And then if you're

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Speaker 2: in it long enough, you have lifetime. But it you know,

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Speaker 2: takes twenty years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that those are all important things

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Speaker 1: to realize. So you knew that you wanted to be

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Speaker 1: in a creative field, and a creative field is an

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Speaker 1: incredibly These aren't the risks that we normally talk about

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Speaker 1: on this show. But I think it's so important to

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Speaker 1: realize that you're taking huge risks and the things that

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Speaker 1: so Rounders you wrote on spec so for people who

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Speaker 1: don't know what that means, you weren't paid.

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Speaker 2: Well we had there's a yeah, we weren't. But there's

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Speaker 2: a great little story that's perfect for this show, which

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Speaker 2: is because I was in the music business before that.

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Speaker 2: I knew some people who were attendant to the movie business.

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Speaker 2: And Dave and I had the idea for rounders, and

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Speaker 2: he met somebody who we told the idea to a

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Speaker 2: director producer, and that director producer offered us five thousand dollars,

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Speaker 2: and Dave was bartending and offered us five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: I bartended too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, five thousand dollars if we would write the script

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Speaker 2: and then he and his partner, the director producer guy.

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Speaker 2: He and his partner would own half of the script.

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Speaker 2: So if we then wrote the script and they were

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Speaker 2: able to sell it, we would split it fifty to fifty.

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Speaker 2: And there was all this other stuff. Oh no, well,

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Speaker 2: it was very exciting. You know, someone offered money, and

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Speaker 2: David had been wanting to do this and he met

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Speaker 2: this person, and you know, he'd wanted to have a

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Speaker 2: career at this. I came through it a little later,

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Speaker 2: but I knew someone who worked. I knew someone who

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Speaker 2: connected me to a woman named Rachel Harvitz, who was

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Speaker 2: at Fine line, which is part of a new line.

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Speaker 2: She's a great Academy Award winning producer now, but at

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Speaker 2: the time she wasn't. She was an executive at a

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Speaker 2: company and her brother was in the Beastie Boys, and

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Speaker 2: her dad he's famous playwright, oh dad, And yeah, but

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Speaker 2: Rachel's super smart. And I smoke got a meeting with her.

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Speaker 2: David and I went up and met with her, and

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Speaker 2: she's like, tell me the situation, but don't tell me

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Speaker 2: your idea. Just tell me the situation. And we told

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Speaker 2: her the situation and she said, Okay, well, I can

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Speaker 2: tell that like the twenty five hundred bucks would be

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Speaker 2: good for EACHU coppleman. You need it less you have

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Speaker 2: a job, but I could see that it would be

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Speaker 2: like a good thing. But I'll tell you this, if

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Speaker 2: with you all having done nothing and having no track record,

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Speaker 2: you have a story and an idea that somebody who

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Speaker 2: also isn't someone who's like filled with money, they're not

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Speaker 2: a huge person. If they're willing to give you five

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars, you should risk losing that five thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: and write that script on spec because if you then

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Speaker 2: sell it and you guys control it, you'll have a

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Speaker 2: whole career. And we left her office and just looked

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Speaker 2: at each other and went, well, that's what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: That's such great advice. You're you're so you know that

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Speaker 1: the role of luck is something that I think about

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Speaker 1: a lot. Of course, that I think is so crucial.

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Speaker 1: What a lucky kind of moment that that that you

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Speaker 1: had that connection and that you had that conversation, because

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Speaker 1: your career would look so different if you had sold

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Speaker 1: fifty percent from the get go.

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure, it would have been a different ways.

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Speaker 2: And now that interestingly, because Dave's instincts are great to

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Speaker 2: the person David met ended up becoming a very big

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Speaker 2: person in Hollywood, and we have a great relationship with him.

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Speaker 2: So Dave did spot up on somebody who was going

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Speaker 2: to go the distance, but all of our careers would

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Speaker 2: have been That guy then went and directed a small

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Speaker 2: movie where the actress in it got nominated for an

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Speaker 2: oscar and his career was off and running, and we've

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Speaker 2: often thought about sort of how it all would have gone,

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Speaker 2: could have gone differently. So there's the luck element, but

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Speaker 2: also truly it was a risk question. Yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: like you know, and yeah, I remember was like, well,

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Speaker 2: you guys could get ten grand, you know if you counter,

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Speaker 2: but I wouldn't counter. No walk away.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: It's a hard piece of advice to give, by the way,

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Speaker 2: for sure, a hard piece of advice to give, having

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Speaker 2: been as you have on any other chair. But we

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Speaker 2: were so grateful and I never miss an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: thank Rachel for giving us that advice.

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Speaker 1: It is. It is wonderful advice, and I think that

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Speaker 1: it's advice that everyone can hear at every single stage

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Speaker 1: of their career because that power to like to realize

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Speaker 1: that you can walk away, that you actually have the risk,

364
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Speaker 1: but you have the downside, but you also have the upside.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's important to say, like both Dave and I

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Speaker 2: had college paid for and I think that that's a

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Speaker 2: huge advantage that we had. We and I can never

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Speaker 2: And that's not sort of like that's something I've thought

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Speaker 2: about and said for a long time, sort of before

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Speaker 2: it was in vogue to have to always sort of

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Speaker 2: explain away these parts, you know, just but it is

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Speaker 2: just the fact, sure my father was able to pay

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Speaker 2: for college for me. That gave me, when you talk

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Speaker 2: about luck, that gave me the ability to make decisions, yeah,

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Speaker 2: based on a series of things that were quite different

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Speaker 2: than if I had one hundred thousand dollars worth of

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Speaker 2: debt that I had to satisfy. I did right, and

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Speaker 2: that shapes certain decisions, right and absolutely so for me.

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Speaker 2: That gift, it's a huge gift, is a gigantic advantage.

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Speaker 1: You know, we talked about earlier, not on this pod,

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Speaker 1: but when you and I were just having a conversation.

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Speaker 1: You had asked me about having gone to Harvard, right,

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Speaker 1: and whether you thought that it still had some sort

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Speaker 1: of cachet, some advantage because things are changing so much.

385
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Speaker 1: And I thought about that question after you asked me,

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Speaker 1: and my answer is that it depends on who you are.

387
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Speaker 1: For someone like me, yes, it does. Because I wasn't

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Speaker 1: born here. I'm generation zero, I knew nobody. You know.

389
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Speaker 1: I'm an immigrant, like I'm a Russian Jewish immigrant, right,

390
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Speaker 1: and having that degree confers a certain kind of it.

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Speaker 1: Just it gives me a check mark that I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: otherwise have that gets me through the door. How did

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Speaker 1: I get into television? My first job in television was

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Speaker 1: as a producer. Well, I didn't start as a producer.

395
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Speaker 1: I became a producer for Charlie Rose, and that was,

396
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Speaker 1: you know, that was my kind of before I went

397
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Speaker 1: to grad school. And the only reason I was able

398
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Speaker 1: to get that job was through the Harvard Network because

399
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Speaker 1: there were Harvard people working at Charlie Rose who picked

400
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Speaker 1: my resume and got me that interview, and then you know,

401
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Speaker 1: I got in the I.

402
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Speaker 2: Think it's magic. To me, those are still magic words.

403
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Speaker 2: But I'm fifty eight years old, so I know that.

404
00:21:53,084 --> 00:21:57,524
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't go to Harvard, but I there

405
00:21:57,564 --> 00:22:00,924
Speaker 2: are certain words in our in the world, in our

406
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Speaker 2: language that are magic words. Whether they should be or

407
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Speaker 2: shouldn't be as a different.

408
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Speaker 1: That's a different question. But your question to me was

409
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Speaker 1: are they still And I think for me they were,

410
00:22:09,004 --> 00:22:11,524
Speaker 1: and they enabled me. I had I had student loans, right,

411
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Speaker 1: I had no money. I grew up poor. Like my

412
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Speaker 1: parents had to leave everything behind when they came here,

413
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Speaker 1: including their passports. Right we had we got political asylum

414
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Speaker 1: when we came to the United States, And like, I

415
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Speaker 1: grew up actually poor, and I didn't realize that because

416
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Speaker 1: my mom is the most amazing person and like never

417
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Speaker 1: made me feel like we were poor, but we were right,

418
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Speaker 1: and so I they always supported me and when I

419
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Speaker 1: said I want to be a writer, Apparently I told

420
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Speaker 1: them I wanted to be a writer when I was five.

421
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Speaker 1: I don't remember this, but I wanted to be a

422
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Speaker 1: writer my entire life. But when I was in college

423
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Speaker 1: and I kind of went back and forth. I went

424
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Speaker 1: through recruiting, corporate recruiting, and got jobs as a consultant

425
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Speaker 1: and an investment banking because I was so nervous, you know,

426
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Speaker 1: to because I didn't know anyone. I hadn't I was

427
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Speaker 1: never able to do internships in the summer. I had

428
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Speaker 1: to work because I made it to be paid, so

429
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Speaker 1: I didn't have those legs up that you know, people

430
00:23:05,884 --> 00:23:08,804
Speaker 1: who are able to do you know, Harper's internship and

431
00:23:08,804 --> 00:23:09,444
Speaker 1: when you go up.

432
00:23:10,524 --> 00:23:13,244
Speaker 2: When you got to Harvard, because I remember I was

433
00:23:13,364 --> 00:23:18,884
Speaker 2: walking one day with my son and like five of

434
00:23:18,924 --> 00:23:23,484
Speaker 2: his friends at Harvard, and one of his friends was

435
00:23:23,524 --> 00:23:27,684
Speaker 2: the first not only in his family, but in his

436
00:23:27,964 --> 00:23:31,444
Speaker 2: entire high school. He was the first person to apply

437
00:23:31,724 --> 00:23:37,844
Speaker 2: to one of the four those four schools at Princeton, Stanford, Harvard, MIT.

438
00:23:39,444 --> 00:23:42,404
Speaker 2: And he's like, they didn't even know how, he said,

439
00:23:42,404 --> 00:23:46,484
Speaker 2: And then a bunch of these young men and women

440
00:23:46,644 --> 00:23:49,844
Speaker 2: walked ahead and I was standing back with this other

441
00:23:50,164 --> 00:23:52,804
Speaker 2: kid and he was like, I'll never catch up. And

442
00:23:52,844 --> 00:23:53,964
Speaker 2: I was like, they're not that far ahead, and he

443
00:23:54,004 --> 00:23:56,644
Speaker 2: was like no, no, no, I met geographically like they were

444
00:23:56,684 --> 00:23:58,444
Speaker 2: going to the Hong Kong and I was like, no, no,

445
00:23:58,444 --> 00:23:59,884
Speaker 2: they're just over there and he's like no, no, no, I mean,

446
00:23:59,924 --> 00:24:00,724
Speaker 2: how do I catch up?

447
00:24:00,764 --> 00:24:00,964
Speaker 1: Yeah?

448
00:24:01,724 --> 00:24:03,204
Speaker 2: And I went did you have that face? He's like

449
00:24:03,244 --> 00:24:06,124
Speaker 2: because there he goes. They all have just and they

450
00:24:06,124 --> 00:24:08,804
Speaker 2: were of wide, you know, very I mean, my son

451
00:24:09,284 --> 00:24:11,244
Speaker 2: was the son of two New York writers and it

452
00:24:11,284 --> 00:24:13,764
Speaker 2: was like before the show, like, you know, and some

453
00:24:13,804 --> 00:24:16,244
Speaker 2: of the people that he knew there were you know,

454
00:24:16,524 --> 00:24:24,284
Speaker 2: multi generational, sure wealth and so it you know, counts

455
00:24:24,484 --> 00:24:30,244
Speaker 2: and things like that. But still they all had a language. Yeah,

456
00:24:30,524 --> 00:24:35,124
Speaker 2: and this young man didn't have that language. And he

457
00:24:35,204 --> 00:24:37,484
Speaker 2: literally said to me like what do I have?

458
00:24:37,804 --> 00:24:38,004
Speaker 1: Yeah?

459
00:24:38,044 --> 00:24:39,684
Speaker 2: And this was freshman year and by the end, he

460
00:24:40,004 --> 00:24:42,764
Speaker 2: of course had it. But did you feel that at all?

461
00:24:42,924 --> 00:24:46,124
Speaker 1: Absolutely? And once again I'm going to say thank you mom,

462
00:24:46,724 --> 00:24:50,044
Speaker 1: because I remember my freshman year I took a class

463
00:24:50,204 --> 00:24:52,084
Speaker 1: and this was a totally different context, but I think

464
00:24:52,124 --> 00:24:54,284
Speaker 1: it gets at the heart of this. I took an

465
00:24:54,284 --> 00:24:58,564
Speaker 1: intensive Italian class for Romance language speakers, and I spoke

466
00:24:58,604 --> 00:25:00,804
Speaker 1: fluent French, so you needed to speak you know, some

467
00:25:01,364 --> 00:25:03,884
Speaker 1: And there was a kid there who spoke Italian because

468
00:25:03,924 --> 00:25:06,164
Speaker 1: he had trained at Juilliard. He already had a degree

469
00:25:06,164 --> 00:25:09,244
Speaker 1: from Juilliard as an opera singer. But he didn't know

470
00:25:09,284 --> 00:25:11,684
Speaker 1: that grammar like he so he was in it. And

471
00:25:12,324 --> 00:25:14,524
Speaker 1: you know, it was a tiny class, and you know,

472
00:25:14,564 --> 00:25:18,004
Speaker 1: grades matter. I went to Harvard, right, Like, I'm really competitive.

473
00:25:18,404 --> 00:25:20,164
Speaker 1: And I was talking to my mom and I'm like,

474
00:25:20,164 --> 00:25:23,124
Speaker 1: it's so unfair. You know, I can't like, how do

475
00:25:23,204 --> 00:25:25,724
Speaker 1: I you know, there's this kid and like, and she

476
00:25:25,804 --> 00:25:27,884
Speaker 1: looked at me and she said, I never want you

477
00:25:27,964 --> 00:25:30,844
Speaker 1: to say that sentence again. And she drilled it into

478
00:25:30,884 --> 00:25:34,844
Speaker 1: my head. That's saying that's so unfair. That word unfair

479
00:25:34,884 --> 00:25:37,164
Speaker 1: should not be in your vocabulary. She's like, life is

480
00:25:37,244 --> 00:25:41,404
Speaker 1: fucking unfair. Deal with it. Don't worry about that kid.

481
00:25:42,044 --> 00:25:46,444
Speaker 1: You work your ass off, you compete against yourself, you

482
00:25:46,484 --> 00:25:49,684
Speaker 1: do what you need to do. Yet it's unfair. Yes,

483
00:25:49,764 --> 00:25:52,644
Speaker 1: they have advantages that you don't have. My college roommates,

484
00:25:52,644 --> 00:25:55,204
Speaker 1: who are now my best friends, had money, right, I

485
00:25:55,244 --> 00:25:57,604
Speaker 1: had no money. I couldn't I couldn't afford like we

486
00:25:57,644 --> 00:26:00,764
Speaker 1: would do like they would do during like parent weekend,

487
00:26:01,004 --> 00:26:03,004
Speaker 1: like they would go to dinner and they'd invite me

488
00:26:03,364 --> 00:26:05,564
Speaker 1: with their parents, and we couldn't go because the restaurants

489
00:26:05,564 --> 00:26:07,924
Speaker 1: were too expensive for my family. And I never said

490
00:26:07,924 --> 00:26:10,004
Speaker 1: that to them. And if they're listening to this right now,

491
00:26:10,004 --> 00:26:12,124
Speaker 1: they're probably going to be horrified because I've never told

492
00:26:12,164 --> 00:26:15,964
Speaker 1: this to them. And these are my closest friends in

493
00:26:15,964 --> 00:26:16,244
Speaker 1: the world.

494
00:26:16,764 --> 00:26:18,644
Speaker 2: They figured it out by now, probably.

495
00:26:18,524 --> 00:26:21,124
Speaker 1: Probably, but we couldn't afford it, Like that's why I

496
00:26:21,164 --> 00:26:25,284
Speaker 1: never went to those dinners. And there were so many,

497
00:26:25,404 --> 00:26:27,084
Speaker 1: you know, so many things. And then when I wanted

498
00:26:27,084 --> 00:26:29,004
Speaker 1: to be a writer, and I admitted to myself that

499
00:26:29,044 --> 00:26:31,084
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a writer, because I didn't at first,

500
00:26:31,524 --> 00:26:34,324
Speaker 1: and then like I secretly applied to the fiction Summinar

501
00:26:34,444 --> 00:26:36,684
Speaker 1: because it was an application process and I didn't want

502
00:26:36,724 --> 00:26:38,964
Speaker 1: anyone to ask if I'd gotten in or not. And

503
00:26:39,004 --> 00:26:40,964
Speaker 1: then after I got in that I could talk about it.

504
00:26:41,284 --> 00:26:43,524
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a scary thing, and that's it. So

505
00:26:43,724 --> 00:26:46,284
Speaker 2: that's a giant risk. Absolutely one of the things people

506
00:26:46,324 --> 00:26:49,764
Speaker 2: don't talk about a lot. And I think this stuff applies,

507
00:26:49,964 --> 00:26:52,964
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I would say, the risk of

508
00:26:52,964 --> 00:26:55,004
Speaker 2: coming on this podcast and talking about this kind of

509
00:26:55,044 --> 00:26:58,124
Speaker 2: fuzzy stuff versus the sciencey stuff is I know that

510
00:26:58,444 --> 00:27:01,884
Speaker 2: some listeners all may be sort of not why they're

511
00:27:01,924 --> 00:27:05,004
Speaker 2: interested in this pod, right. Absolutely, I listened to this

512
00:27:05,044 --> 00:27:08,084
Speaker 2: podcast because I'm a geek about like learning out behavior

513
00:27:08,124 --> 00:27:10,804
Speaker 2: and risk. I love it. Decision making is really like

514
00:27:10,844 --> 00:27:14,604
Speaker 2: the such the most important thing, but a big risk.

515
00:27:14,644 --> 00:27:17,124
Speaker 2: But it is. But I think this is broadly applicable

516
00:27:17,164 --> 00:27:20,724
Speaker 2: because a huge risk to your own self image is

517
00:27:20,764 --> 00:27:23,804
Speaker 2: a huge risk. Yes, and we have to be aware

518
00:27:23,844 --> 00:27:26,484
Speaker 2: and so often well we will not tell ourselves that,

519
00:27:26,884 --> 00:27:30,924
Speaker 2: but we won't take the risk, so we will downplay it.

520
00:27:30,924 --> 00:27:34,044
Speaker 2: It's like I was talking to a group of salespeople.

521
00:27:34,804 --> 00:27:37,804
Speaker 2: I was speaking at some company, you know, a big company,

522
00:27:37,804 --> 00:27:43,444
Speaker 2: to a group of salespeople, and I say, like, is

523
00:27:43,444 --> 00:27:45,324
Speaker 2: this true? I have a feeling this might be true

524
00:27:45,364 --> 00:27:47,444
Speaker 2: because I can relate it to my own world and

525
00:27:47,484 --> 00:27:49,484
Speaker 2: a job I really want it. I said, is it

526
00:27:50,444 --> 00:27:53,484
Speaker 2: if you have a really like the day to day

527
00:27:53,524 --> 00:27:55,364
Speaker 2: if you're a top worker, if you're if you're you know,

528
00:27:55,444 --> 00:27:57,764
Speaker 2: the top of your field, the day to day meetings

529
00:27:57,804 --> 00:28:00,364
Speaker 2: you can sell you know, one hundred units of something

530
00:28:00,364 --> 00:28:04,804
Speaker 2: to somebody. It's it's very easy to do thorough, incredibly

531
00:28:04,884 --> 00:28:11,284
Speaker 2: deep preparation, but when you have a giant opportunity to

532
00:28:11,404 --> 00:28:15,044
Speaker 2: present to something where you could sell ten thousand units,

533
00:28:16,204 --> 00:28:21,924
Speaker 2: it's harder to not procrastinate. It's because if you put

534
00:28:22,004 --> 00:28:24,844
Speaker 2: everything you have into it and it doesn't work, you

535
00:28:24,884 --> 00:28:31,044
Speaker 2: are crushed. And all these people agree that it's the

536
00:28:31,084 --> 00:28:34,244
Speaker 2: bigger the opportunity, the harder it is to actually put

537
00:28:34,244 --> 00:28:36,844
Speaker 2: the work in ahead of time, even though the reward

538
00:28:36,964 --> 00:28:40,564
Speaker 2: is the greatest. But there's this feeling about that, and

539
00:28:40,604 --> 00:28:43,884
Speaker 2: so we have to recognize. I think this is one

540
00:28:43,884 --> 00:28:48,284
Speaker 2: of the things about behavioral economics in general decision making.

541
00:28:48,804 --> 00:28:51,444
Speaker 2: Seth Godin talks about the choice and a decision, and

542
00:28:51,564 --> 00:28:54,764
Speaker 2: like most things are choices, but anything that you recognize

543
00:28:54,804 --> 00:29:00,004
Speaker 2: as a decision is worth taking some kind of inventory

544
00:29:00,644 --> 00:29:04,884
Speaker 2: to figure out what is what you're adding up that

545
00:29:04,924 --> 00:29:07,964
Speaker 2: you're not realizing you're adding up in the process of

546
00:29:08,004 --> 00:29:10,964
Speaker 2: making that decision. Figure it out. You're stacking a bunch

547
00:29:11,004 --> 00:29:14,164
Speaker 2: of stuff on the table and it's a seesaw, but

548
00:29:14,324 --> 00:29:15,564
Speaker 2: you know you might not be able to see out

549
00:29:15,564 --> 00:29:18,644
Speaker 2: of your peripheral vision, but turn your head and actually

550
00:29:18,724 --> 00:29:20,884
Speaker 2: look at what's on the both ends of the both

551
00:29:20,964 --> 00:29:25,204
Speaker 2: ends of the seesaw, and no, it's hard to do this.

552
00:29:25,404 --> 00:29:27,284
Speaker 2: That's why journal. Like one of the things about morning

553
00:29:27,324 --> 00:29:30,324
Speaker 2: Pages is if you do morning Pages enough, you find

554
00:29:30,324 --> 00:29:32,524
Speaker 2: out what you really want. You find out what really

555
00:29:32,564 --> 00:29:35,684
Speaker 2: matters to you. Same with meditation and the reason. So

556
00:29:35,844 --> 00:29:40,324
Speaker 2: some of this stuff sounds like anti scientific, but it's not.

557
00:29:40,884 --> 00:29:46,404
Speaker 2: All these things become to me their data generating things.

558
00:29:47,044 --> 00:29:50,684
Speaker 2: They help you figure out, kind of like where you

559
00:29:50,724 --> 00:29:52,924
Speaker 2: are on the hand, if I can return it to poker.

560
00:29:54,644 --> 00:29:56,004
Speaker 2: And you know when you asked me about poker. At

561
00:29:56,044 --> 00:30:00,284
Speaker 2: the very beginning, I lost a bad I lost my

562
00:30:00,324 --> 00:30:02,484
Speaker 2: whole canteen worth of money when I was in fourth

563
00:30:02,484 --> 00:30:05,404
Speaker 2: grade and Sleepway camp the first time I learned to

564
00:30:05,404 --> 00:30:07,484
Speaker 2: play poker. My dad had a carouselo chips at home,

565
00:30:07,484 --> 00:30:10,724
Speaker 2: but he didn't teach me to play. And we played

566
00:30:10,724 --> 00:30:13,284
Speaker 2: at camp and I lost everything. I had, like thirty

567
00:30:13,284 --> 00:30:14,804
Speaker 2: bucks to get me through the whole summer, and I

568
00:30:14,884 --> 00:30:20,484
Speaker 2: lost all thirty dollars and it I was like, I

569
00:30:20,564 --> 00:30:23,884
Speaker 2: want to learn that game. I want to understand that game.

570
00:30:24,204 --> 00:30:29,164
Speaker 2: And it was slow coming. Like that experience happened a

571
00:30:29,164 --> 00:30:30,964
Speaker 2: couple of times because you know, you can learn the game,

572
00:30:30,964 --> 00:30:33,404
Speaker 2: but then you still have to But at a certain point,

573
00:30:34,844 --> 00:30:41,844
Speaker 2: I just became really, really fascinated by all the different

574
00:30:41,924 --> 00:30:45,284
Speaker 2: things you had to be able to stay aware of

575
00:30:45,324 --> 00:30:48,364
Speaker 2: in order to become decent at poker. And it was

576
00:30:48,404 --> 00:30:52,524
Speaker 2: fascinating to me, and it was a way gambling is

577
00:30:52,524 --> 00:30:54,364
Speaker 2: not great for me into any other kind of gambling.

578
00:30:54,724 --> 00:30:58,324
Speaker 2: Poker I've always been able to keep as a separate thing,

579
00:30:59,844 --> 00:31:03,524
Speaker 2: and it just brought me a tremendous amount of joy

580
00:31:03,924 --> 00:31:07,724
Speaker 2: to think through those problems to be most most things

581
00:31:07,764 --> 00:31:12,524
Speaker 2: in life, it's don't allow you to get to that

582
00:31:12,604 --> 00:31:17,004
Speaker 2: place where you're hyper present. And yeah, if you know

583
00:31:17,084 --> 00:31:19,564
Speaker 2: how to think about poker, I'm not great poker player,

584
00:31:19,564 --> 00:31:22,044
Speaker 2: but if you know how to think about poker, you

585
00:31:22,084 --> 00:31:24,044
Speaker 2: have the ability to be hyper president at the poker table.

586
00:31:24,084 --> 00:31:24,764
Speaker 2: And that's a gift.

587
00:31:25,044 --> 00:31:28,204
Speaker 1: Absolutely No people laugh at me when I say that.

588
00:31:28,404 --> 00:31:31,204
Speaker 1: I became much more zen when I started playing poker

589
00:31:31,404 --> 00:31:35,124
Speaker 1: because it just it put me in that state. We'll

590
00:31:35,164 --> 00:31:56,444
Speaker 1: be back in a minute. So now, if you extrapolate

591
00:31:56,484 --> 00:31:59,284
Speaker 1: from that, you you know, you took a huge risk

592
00:31:59,284 --> 00:32:01,404
Speaker 1: gun rounders, and we talked about that and it kind

593
00:32:01,404 --> 00:32:05,284
Speaker 1: of led to this whole career. But as you and

594
00:32:05,324 --> 00:32:07,364
Speaker 1: I have also talked about it, it's not like your

595
00:32:07,444 --> 00:32:11,884
Speaker 1: career has been like easy going and like oh like

596
00:32:12,004 --> 00:32:15,524
Speaker 1: after rounders, everything's great, we can sell everything, everything works.

597
00:32:15,604 --> 00:32:18,204
Speaker 1: I have money, pilon in you know, live in the

598
00:32:18,284 --> 00:32:21,044
Speaker 1: high life. Right That's that's not how it works. And

599
00:32:21,124 --> 00:32:25,524
Speaker 1: so I'm very curious to know whether there's a point

600
00:32:25,564 --> 00:32:29,884
Speaker 1: in time where kind of you took And right now

601
00:32:30,164 --> 00:32:33,084
Speaker 1: I think nobody can dispute that you're incredibly successful.

602
00:32:33,644 --> 00:32:33,924
Speaker 3: Thank you.

603
00:32:34,004 --> 00:32:37,844
Speaker 1: So I think you're welcome. But it's very well deserved

604
00:32:37,844 --> 00:32:40,004
Speaker 1: and very well earned through a lot of hard work.

605
00:32:40,324 --> 00:32:42,124
Speaker 1: So it's not like you went you know, from zero

606
00:32:42,164 --> 00:32:44,964
Speaker 1: to I think that, but right now I think that

607
00:32:44,964 --> 00:32:46,404
Speaker 1: that's kind of that's that's what.

608
00:32:46,524 --> 00:32:51,044
Speaker 2: You don't No, I'm listening well lifef like I mean, well, honestly,

609
00:32:51,044 --> 00:32:54,364
Speaker 2: if life tg anything, the moment you kind of think

610
00:32:55,164 --> 00:32:58,164
Speaker 2: you're safe, you're not safe. Of course, I never am

611
00:32:58,204 --> 00:33:02,444
Speaker 2: able to quite say yes, because at the moment I'm

612
00:33:02,444 --> 00:33:04,724
Speaker 2: not worried about you know, like, getting to pay off

613
00:33:04,724 --> 00:33:07,484
Speaker 2: your mortgage is a really big deal. I was able

614
00:33:07,524 --> 00:33:08,404
Speaker 2: to pay off my mortgage.

615
00:33:08,444 --> 00:33:09,324
Speaker 1: Congratulations.

616
00:33:09,804 --> 00:33:12,524
Speaker 2: No, that's a giant thing in life. Yeah, because they

617
00:33:12,524 --> 00:33:14,564
Speaker 2: can you know you, yeah, probably can't take it away

618
00:33:14,564 --> 00:33:17,484
Speaker 2: from you anymore. But right before the show Billions, I mean,

619
00:33:17,524 --> 00:33:19,004
Speaker 2: I thought we were gonna have to downsize and sell

620
00:33:19,004 --> 00:33:21,004
Speaker 2: our apartment, and I wasn't sure if I was gonna

621
00:33:21,004 --> 00:33:24,044
Speaker 2: be able to pay our mortgage. So you know, you

622
00:33:24,324 --> 00:33:25,844
Speaker 2: never you just never know.

623
00:33:26,204 --> 00:33:28,364
Speaker 1: It's I think that's really important, And that's a point

624
00:33:28,364 --> 00:33:30,564
Speaker 1: that I always make, like, was that a moment where

625
00:33:30,564 --> 00:33:33,324
Speaker 1: you actually had to kind of think about risk differently?

626
00:33:33,404 --> 00:33:36,484
Speaker 1: Think about kind of what tell me about that and

627
00:33:36,524 --> 00:33:39,964
Speaker 1: about that decision making process, and kind of where where

628
00:33:40,044 --> 00:33:42,524
Speaker 1: you were before before you sold the show, and kind

629
00:33:42,564 --> 00:33:44,444
Speaker 1: of how you thought about it, how you broke it down.

630
00:33:44,644 --> 00:33:47,804
Speaker 2: We had had giant failures. We had written a movie

631
00:33:47,804 --> 00:33:51,684
Speaker 2: that bombed, and we were supposed to make a television show,

632
00:33:52,764 --> 00:33:57,084
Speaker 2: and through a series of things, we before we even started,

633
00:33:57,404 --> 00:34:03,204
Speaker 2: we got fired and an agent called us and said,

634
00:34:03,724 --> 00:34:08,204
Speaker 2: I just want you to know you're unhireable. And I

635
00:34:08,284 --> 00:34:09,844
Speaker 2: was like, did you have to make that phone call?

636
00:34:09,924 --> 00:34:12,524
Speaker 2: We realized it by the no phone call when you called,

637
00:34:12,564 --> 00:34:14,404
Speaker 2: I thought maybe I was going to get hired, you know,

638
00:34:15,564 --> 00:34:18,684
Speaker 2: And just I remember this phone call from this agent,

639
00:34:18,764 --> 00:34:20,684
Speaker 2: and it was in Central Park in the winter, and

640
00:34:20,724 --> 00:34:22,284
Speaker 2: I was sitting on a bench in Central Park when

641
00:34:22,284 --> 00:34:24,484
Speaker 2: I got the call and it was snowy and gross,

642
00:34:24,724 --> 00:34:26,684
Speaker 2: and I just remember it was such a good punch.

643
00:34:26,564 --> 00:34:28,244
Speaker 1: And this is a bad scene.

644
00:34:28,324 --> 00:34:29,044
Speaker 2: It was terrible.

645
00:34:29,124 --> 00:34:31,764
Speaker 1: Yeah, unbelievable, too many, too many negative.

646
00:34:31,444 --> 00:34:37,124
Speaker 2: Things, that's terrible, true. And I remember exactly where I was.

647
00:34:37,164 --> 00:34:40,404
Speaker 2: But here's the thing. I would walk across the park

648
00:34:40,404 --> 00:34:42,524
Speaker 2: every day. We lived on the west side. My office

649
00:34:42,844 --> 00:34:46,484
Speaker 2: was at the top of this bridge club with like

650
00:34:46,524 --> 00:34:50,604
Speaker 2: the top floor of a bridge club on the upper side.

651
00:34:50,844 --> 00:34:53,044
Speaker 2: David and I and so yeah that at this like

652
00:34:53,044 --> 00:34:55,684
Speaker 2: little tiny elevator mostly walked upstairs. The final thing was

653
00:34:55,804 --> 00:34:58,244
Speaker 2: up that stairs. But it was great, loved it, loved

654
00:34:58,244 --> 00:34:59,804
Speaker 2: this weird thing. But every day would walk to the

655
00:34:59,804 --> 00:35:02,924
Speaker 2: park and h But we were off it was Christmas,

656
00:35:03,004 --> 00:35:05,084
Speaker 2: but we had started this script, and I just remember

657
00:35:05,204 --> 00:35:09,964
Speaker 2: thinking as soon as we started writing it, because it

658
00:35:10,044 --> 00:35:13,324
Speaker 2: was really the lowest point of my professional life, and

659
00:35:13,524 --> 00:35:16,084
Speaker 2: I really did start thinking about what else how to

660
00:35:16,484 --> 00:35:18,684
Speaker 2: keep this thing going. But then as soon as we

661
00:35:18,724 --> 00:35:21,444
Speaker 2: started writing the script, I started just feeling better. I

662
00:35:21,484 --> 00:35:23,404
Speaker 2: started being able to walk quicker instead of like just

663
00:35:23,444 --> 00:35:25,364
Speaker 2: slugging it out walking through the park, you know, in

664
00:35:25,404 --> 00:35:29,444
Speaker 2: the snow, I was able to kind of like march

665
00:35:29,524 --> 00:35:32,884
Speaker 2: through the park, and Dave was way on vacation, and

666
00:35:32,924 --> 00:35:35,124
Speaker 2: I would go through Central Park and go to our

667
00:35:35,164 --> 00:35:36,324
Speaker 2: office and I would work on the script and I

668
00:35:36,324 --> 00:35:38,204
Speaker 2: would send him whatever pages I did, and then he

669
00:35:38,244 --> 00:35:39,644
Speaker 2: would work on it when he got back to his

670
00:35:39,764 --> 00:35:42,044
Speaker 2: like wherever he was, and send me stuff. By the morning,

671
00:35:42,124 --> 00:35:45,444
Speaker 2: I would have stuff from him. And I remember just

672
00:35:45,524 --> 00:35:50,644
Speaker 2: working on it over this period of time and knowing, Okay,

673
00:35:50,684 --> 00:35:56,484
Speaker 2: I think this might be the thing. And to talk

674
00:35:56,484 --> 00:35:59,004
Speaker 2: about risks so in what you're supposed to do in

675
00:35:59,044 --> 00:36:03,564
Speaker 2: the TV business. And even though we were unhirable according

676
00:36:03,604 --> 00:36:08,324
Speaker 2: to the film agents, we did have a couple people

677
00:36:08,364 --> 00:36:15,444
Speaker 2: in TV at television companies who would have heard a

678
00:36:15,484 --> 00:36:20,324
Speaker 2: pitch from us and paid us some fee to write

679
00:36:21,164 --> 00:36:23,004
Speaker 2: a script if they were interested in it. And our

680
00:36:23,084 --> 00:36:25,484
Speaker 2: agent said, if you are working on something and you

681
00:36:25,524 --> 00:36:27,404
Speaker 2: want us to get you in those rooms, even though

682
00:36:27,404 --> 00:36:30,204
Speaker 2: you're cold, you know, the traditional thing is go pitch it.

683
00:36:30,244 --> 00:36:32,484
Speaker 2: If nobody wants to pitch, they're not going to want

684
00:36:33,244 --> 00:36:36,804
Speaker 2: the project, and you're going to save yourself time. Otherwise

685
00:36:36,804 --> 00:36:39,644
Speaker 2: you're going to spend four or five months writing this

686
00:36:39,764 --> 00:36:43,804
Speaker 2: script on spec, and the great likelihood is nobody is

687
00:36:43,844 --> 00:36:46,604
Speaker 2: going to want it, and you will have wasted the

688
00:36:46,684 --> 00:36:48,724
Speaker 2: time and the opportunity costs to find a way to

689
00:36:48,764 --> 00:36:51,084
Speaker 2: be in business with these people, and they will. You

690
00:36:51,084 --> 00:36:53,164
Speaker 2: will make some money over this time and now you'll

691
00:36:53,164 --> 00:36:56,444
Speaker 2: make no money over this time period. But what David

692
00:36:56,444 --> 00:36:59,484
Speaker 2: and I realized was if we wrote the script, and

693
00:36:59,524 --> 00:37:02,124
Speaker 2: we wrote the first episode with andrewros Orkintwo was three

694
00:37:02,204 --> 00:37:04,564
Speaker 2: of us. But Andrew was willing to go along with

695
00:37:04,604 --> 00:37:10,124
Speaker 2: this idea, which was, well, write it on spec. Yes,

696
00:37:10,164 --> 00:37:13,484
Speaker 2: it's possible. In fact, it's likely that nobody will want it.

697
00:37:15,004 --> 00:37:17,764
Speaker 2: But the only way a writer in Hollywood can grab

698
00:37:17,804 --> 00:37:22,524
Speaker 2: any power and control their future in any way is

699
00:37:22,564 --> 00:37:26,284
Speaker 2: to have a piece of material that the business wants,

700
00:37:27,124 --> 00:37:29,764
Speaker 2: because then you can set terms instead of having to

701
00:37:30,204 --> 00:37:35,004
Speaker 2: de facto take their terms. And so we decided we're

702
00:37:35,004 --> 00:37:36,644
Speaker 2: going to write it on spec so that we can

703
00:37:36,684 --> 00:37:39,964
Speaker 2: create an inflection point. If somebody wants it, we can say, well,

704
00:37:40,004 --> 00:37:42,404
Speaker 2: then you have to set a start date that you're

705
00:37:42,404 --> 00:37:45,004
Speaker 2: going to make the show, that you have to be

706
00:37:45,004 --> 00:37:46,844
Speaker 2: willing to give us the script back by this date.

707
00:37:46,884 --> 00:37:50,284
Speaker 2: If you won't, we could gain momentum and kind of

708
00:37:50,324 --> 00:37:54,404
Speaker 2: flip the paradigm, and we decided that that was a

709
00:37:54,524 --> 00:37:58,604
Speaker 2: risk worth taking because of the asymmetrical upside, and so

710
00:37:59,924 --> 00:38:03,684
Speaker 2: we did that and luckily, this wherelock comes in, like

711
00:38:03,724 --> 00:38:06,604
Speaker 2: we had something that had the thing in it that

712
00:38:06,844 --> 00:38:09,724
Speaker 2: made it the right thing at that time, so that

713
00:38:09,844 --> 00:38:12,204
Speaker 2: all just added up in the right way, so that

714
00:38:13,164 --> 00:38:16,524
Speaker 2: somebody did want it badly enough that we could set

715
00:38:16,524 --> 00:38:20,124
Speaker 2: a situation up where we could put ourselves in a

716
00:38:20,204 --> 00:38:21,684
Speaker 2: position to really succeed with it.

717
00:38:22,324 --> 00:38:25,764
Speaker 1: That's amazing And in some ways I love the symmetry

718
00:38:25,844 --> 00:38:29,404
Speaker 1: right where the beginning of your career and this particular

719
00:38:29,444 --> 00:38:31,644
Speaker 1: point which has brought you to where you are today,

720
00:38:32,084 --> 00:38:35,564
Speaker 1: there are some symmetries despite the fact that you're now

721
00:38:36,044 --> 00:38:39,324
Speaker 1: you know, older, wiser, more mature, etc. But that thinking

722
00:38:39,404 --> 00:38:44,044
Speaker 1: and that risk calculus, it has served you well.

723
00:38:44,124 --> 00:38:46,564
Speaker 2: It's also about telling the truth to yourself. So like, yes,

724
00:38:46,604 --> 00:38:50,484
Speaker 2: the agent said that to us undeniably, even though it

725
00:38:50,524 --> 00:38:53,124
Speaker 2: sounds apocryphal, but it's true. I mean, I've all the

726
00:38:53,244 --> 00:38:57,204
Speaker 2: email backup. But also at other times in one's life

727
00:38:57,364 --> 00:38:59,404
Speaker 2: you could ignore it we had made because you look

728
00:38:59,444 --> 00:39:02,484
Speaker 2: at me kind of incredulously, but we yes, I was

729
00:39:02,524 --> 00:39:05,484
Speaker 2: incredulous about the fact that you mean this twenty year

730
00:39:05,524 --> 00:39:08,684
Speaker 2: career of constantly making stuff that people want to make

731
00:39:08,804 --> 00:39:11,924
Speaker 2: and see, like, you know, we had done all sorts

732
00:39:11,964 --> 00:39:14,444
Speaker 2: of written Ocean's thirteen by them, it didn't matter. The

733
00:39:14,444 --> 00:39:16,444
Speaker 2: business doesn't care. And it's a great thing to know

734
00:39:16,564 --> 00:39:20,204
Speaker 2: that the business doesn't care. And so you have to

735
00:39:20,284 --> 00:39:24,164
Speaker 2: make the business care. You have to create something undeniable,

736
00:39:24,684 --> 00:39:27,724
Speaker 2: and you have to create a piece of work that

737
00:39:27,844 --> 00:39:32,084
Speaker 2: is undeniable. Like your mother said, it's unfair. It's okay,

738
00:39:32,204 --> 00:39:34,844
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean yet that's the state of play, is

739
00:39:34,844 --> 00:39:35,684
Speaker 2: that it's unfair.

740
00:39:36,284 --> 00:39:39,444
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. It's the same thing in you know,

741
00:39:39,484 --> 00:39:43,404
Speaker 1: the written realm, even though it's much more fair I

742
00:39:43,484 --> 00:39:45,884
Speaker 1: think the than Hollywood. And we'll talk about this in

743
00:39:45,884 --> 00:39:49,084
Speaker 1: a second, but you're only as good as your last

744
00:39:49,124 --> 00:39:51,324
Speaker 1: book in terms of the advance you can get and

745
00:39:51,404 --> 00:39:53,924
Speaker 1: like how people will listen to you. And I always

746
00:39:53,964 --> 00:39:56,204
Speaker 1: know this when I'm working on my next book, I'm like, shit,

747
00:39:56,284 --> 00:39:57,964
Speaker 1: if this book bombs, then I'm not going to be

748
00:39:58,004 --> 00:39:59,844
Speaker 1: able to sell the next one. It doesn't matter that

749
00:39:59,844 --> 00:40:02,604
Speaker 1: I've had three New York Times bestsellers. If the fourth

750
00:40:02,644 --> 00:40:04,404
Speaker 1: one is a bomb, you know, like.

751
00:40:04,484 --> 00:40:06,604
Speaker 2: I have a question that I haven't heard Nate ask

752
00:40:06,644 --> 00:40:08,564
Speaker 2: you yet, or haven't heard somebody ask you and if

753
00:40:08,564 --> 00:40:12,524
Speaker 2: they have, So you were in one of the best

754
00:40:12,524 --> 00:40:14,724
Speaker 2: positions a human who wants to be a writer can

755
00:40:14,724 --> 00:40:16,884
Speaker 2: be in, which is you were at the New Yorker.

756
00:40:18,364 --> 00:40:24,004
Speaker 2: That's not something anybody ever kind of like cast aside

757
00:40:24,084 --> 00:40:26,444
Speaker 2: in any way, meaning if you can say to somebody,

758
00:40:26,684 --> 00:40:29,004
Speaker 2: I'm on staff writer at the New York No, no, no,

759
00:40:29,164 --> 00:40:31,964
Speaker 2: the access that that gives you and the sense of

760
00:40:32,004 --> 00:40:36,444
Speaker 2: security of like Harvard, I'm at the New York I lost.

761
00:40:36,204 --> 00:40:39,124
Speaker 1: My New Yorker email last year, Brian, I had a

762
00:40:39,124 --> 00:40:41,884
Speaker 1: Maria Kondacove at New Yorker dot com email address that

763
00:40:41,924 --> 00:40:44,564
Speaker 1: I no longer have and I wasn't even warned that

764
00:40:44,604 --> 00:40:46,284
Speaker 1: they were going to take it away all of a sudden,

765
00:40:46,284 --> 00:40:49,404
Speaker 1: I couldn't log into it. Really, yes, really, but I

766
00:40:49,444 --> 00:40:51,604
Speaker 1: haven't written for them for years, so, like, I totally

767
00:40:51,644 --> 00:40:52,204
Speaker 1: understand it.

768
00:40:52,244 --> 00:40:53,324
Speaker 2: Were you worried about that?

769
00:40:53,364 --> 00:40:55,044
Speaker 1: Though? No, no, it was No.

770
00:40:55,084 --> 00:40:56,844
Speaker 2: I don't mean about losing the email address. I mean

771
00:40:57,284 --> 00:41:00,124
Speaker 2: were you worried about kind.

772
00:40:59,884 --> 00:41:02,604
Speaker 1: Of like sure, I went on book leave because in

773
00:41:02,684 --> 00:41:05,124
Speaker 1: order to write the biggest bluff my last book. I

774
00:41:05,164 --> 00:41:07,324
Speaker 1: had to immerse myself in that world one hundred percent.

775
00:41:07,364 --> 00:41:08,764
Speaker 1: There was no other way it was going to work.

776
00:41:09,004 --> 00:41:10,924
Speaker 1: I could just you know, stay at the New Yar,

777
00:41:11,044 --> 00:41:14,084
Speaker 1: like do my weekly thing that I was doing, plus

778
00:41:14,524 --> 00:41:16,404
Speaker 1: you know, learn poker and be able to do this,

779
00:41:16,764 --> 00:41:19,804
Speaker 1: you know, understand this world. And so I kind of

780
00:41:19,844 --> 00:41:23,684
Speaker 1: I made that calculated choice. And then you know, one

781
00:41:23,684 --> 00:41:26,844
Speaker 1: thing led to another and I realized, you know, there

782
00:41:26,844 --> 00:41:28,884
Speaker 1: are other things I want to be doing, and what

783
00:41:29,004 --> 00:41:31,404
Speaker 1: am I happiest doing? That was also a question I

784
00:41:31,404 --> 00:41:35,284
Speaker 1: asked myself, right, and I realized that longer for me

785
00:41:35,444 --> 00:41:38,604
Speaker 1: is happier. So I'm happiest when I get to immerse

786
00:41:38,604 --> 00:41:40,524
Speaker 1: myself in a book where I get to be in

787
00:41:40,564 --> 00:41:41,724
Speaker 1: that world for a long time.

788
00:41:41,844 --> 00:41:43,644
Speaker 2: You know what, something we didn't talk about because what

789
00:41:43,844 --> 00:41:45,724
Speaker 2: you know, so I have to vote a lot of

790
00:41:45,724 --> 00:41:49,884
Speaker 2: time the last five years to songwriting, and I h

791
00:41:50,324 --> 00:41:50,924
Speaker 2: it's amazing.

792
00:41:50,964 --> 00:41:51,964
Speaker 1: I follow you on Instagram.

793
00:41:52,364 --> 00:41:54,124
Speaker 2: Yeah, once in a while I'll say something, but like

794
00:41:54,884 --> 00:41:57,884
Speaker 2: I don't know, like sort of how that I At

795
00:41:57,924 --> 00:42:01,124
Speaker 2: a certain point I started writing songs. I wanted other

796
00:42:01,124 --> 00:42:03,204
Speaker 2: people to hear them, and I made a decision like

797
00:42:03,324 --> 00:42:05,924
Speaker 2: I don't five years ago I was like, I'm gonna

798
00:42:05,924 --> 00:42:09,164
Speaker 2: write with people, and I love like Guy Clark in

799
00:42:09,204 --> 00:42:14,564
Speaker 2: Town Van Zanne. I love country music broadly. I'll say

800
00:42:15,844 --> 00:42:18,804
Speaker 2: folk music songs that have stories in them that that's

801
00:42:18,804 --> 00:42:22,164
Speaker 2: the kind of consonance with what I normally do. I

802
00:42:22,204 --> 00:42:24,924
Speaker 2: come from a musical background, you know. My first career

803
00:42:25,284 --> 00:42:27,924
Speaker 2: was as an an R person producer, record producer. I've

804
00:42:27,924 --> 00:42:30,884
Speaker 2: always been around it, but a number of years ago

805
00:42:30,884 --> 00:42:33,484
Speaker 2: I started really taking it seriously and I decided I'm

806
00:42:33,484 --> 00:42:36,924
Speaker 2: going to devote time, like I'm going to devote a

807
00:42:36,964 --> 00:42:43,924
Speaker 2: day a week at least to working on songwriting, making

808
00:42:44,764 --> 00:42:50,324
Speaker 2: relationships with people in that business, going to Nashville, trying

809
00:42:50,444 --> 00:42:53,524
Speaker 2: to write songs with people down there with an eye

810
00:42:53,524 --> 00:42:57,364
Speaker 2: toward getting some artists to sing those songs. That's like

811
00:42:57,764 --> 00:43:03,884
Speaker 2: really intense use of time and also at up time,

812
00:43:03,964 --> 00:43:09,804
Speaker 2: and and like the constant risk of humiliation of rejection.

813
00:43:10,044 --> 00:43:12,284
Speaker 2: You know, it's like if you want to do anything,

814
00:43:12,284 --> 00:43:14,244
Speaker 2: that's like you're just going to deal with rejection. And

815
00:43:14,724 --> 00:43:19,924
Speaker 2: even though one gets much better at understanding rejection for

816
00:43:19,964 --> 00:43:23,284
Speaker 2: what it is, it's a complete lie to say like

817
00:43:23,364 --> 00:43:26,244
Speaker 2: rejection doesn't sting. It's the only difference is it stings

818
00:43:26,244 --> 00:43:29,244
Speaker 2: as opposed to it, like, you know, knocking you out,

819
00:43:30,444 --> 00:43:31,644
Speaker 2: but a jab still hurts.

820
00:43:31,724 --> 00:43:31,804
Speaker 3: Right.

821
00:43:31,844 --> 00:43:33,764
Speaker 2: It's no longer a right cross or an upper cut,

822
00:43:33,804 --> 00:43:35,724
Speaker 2: but a jab is still like, oh, that was not fun.

823
00:43:35,724 --> 00:43:38,204
Speaker 2: I didn't want to get hit in the face. But like,

824
00:43:38,324 --> 00:43:41,164
Speaker 2: I just and I've thought about it a lot, like

825
00:43:41,164 --> 00:43:44,404
Speaker 2: what why? What made me keep me going? Because I

826
00:43:44,444 --> 00:43:47,884
Speaker 2: had off the bat. A couple of people were like, oh,

827
00:43:47,924 --> 00:43:51,204
Speaker 2: well that's a good song like come, but I had

828
00:43:51,364 --> 00:43:54,084
Speaker 2: I could stack up the rejections and it just this year, finally,

829
00:43:54,124 --> 00:43:56,524
Speaker 2: now there's an album coming out A really big country

830
00:43:56,564 --> 00:43:58,844
Speaker 2: artist named Jackson Deine caught a song that co wrote

831
00:43:58,924 --> 00:44:02,244
Speaker 2: and that I co wrote. And I've had a bunch

832
00:44:02,244 --> 00:44:04,284
Speaker 2: of songs get cut by people, but this is the first,

833
00:44:04,324 --> 00:44:06,284
Speaker 2: like and people artists who meant a lot to me,

834
00:44:06,324 --> 00:44:07,804
Speaker 2: where it was like a really big deal to me,

835
00:44:08,124 --> 00:44:11,524
Speaker 2: But this is like a song getting cut by somebody

836
00:44:11,604 --> 00:44:15,724
Speaker 2: who's a really big deal and they just you know,

837
00:44:15,764 --> 00:44:17,404
Speaker 2: he just put out the track listing and I know

838
00:44:17,484 --> 00:44:20,164
Speaker 2: that this songs on the record. We wrote it together

839
00:44:20,204 --> 00:44:25,364
Speaker 2: and congratulations, thanks, But it was I cannot tell you

840
00:44:25,404 --> 00:44:33,124
Speaker 2: the amount of time, just hours, days, energy, focus, heart

841
00:44:33,364 --> 00:44:38,164
Speaker 2: and all mostly where the writing of the songs feels

842
00:44:38,164 --> 00:44:40,724
Speaker 2: really great, but the rest of it felt really bad.

843
00:44:43,164 --> 00:44:45,404
Speaker 2: But I've just learned to chase This is to the

844
00:44:45,444 --> 00:44:50,644
Speaker 2: point of like the curiosity something about something about the

845
00:44:50,684 --> 00:44:54,804
Speaker 2: form of that particular kind of songwriting is hard in

846
00:44:54,884 --> 00:44:59,324
Speaker 2: a way that's like poker. That's that draws me to

847
00:44:59,444 --> 00:45:03,804
Speaker 2: wanting to solve it. It's not really solvable, but it's

848
00:45:04,004 --> 00:45:07,604
Speaker 2: an artist the same kind of artistic spark that happens

849
00:45:07,604 --> 00:45:09,684
Speaker 2: when I want to and this dialogue. It's the same

850
00:45:09,404 --> 00:45:13,244
Speaker 2: sort of idea of writing, but the form is strict

851
00:45:13,964 --> 00:45:16,404
Speaker 2: and you have to find a way to satisfy a

852
00:45:16,444 --> 00:45:18,604
Speaker 2: bunch of different things. And it drew me to even

853
00:45:18,604 --> 00:45:23,444
Speaker 2: though there wasn't gonna be really money in it. There

854
00:45:23,564 --> 00:45:25,404
Speaker 2: was just going to be a time suck and I

855
00:45:25,444 --> 00:45:28,644
Speaker 2: will pay. And people in my life really supported it

856
00:45:29,084 --> 00:45:32,004
Speaker 2: and wanted me to do it as as now it's

857
00:45:32,044 --> 00:45:36,524
Speaker 2: gonna and I know it'll look Whenever we all look

858
00:45:36,764 --> 00:45:42,684
Speaker 2: at someone doing something where it's like, oh, that person,

859
00:45:42,724 --> 00:45:44,444
Speaker 2: how did they go from that? It always looks in

860
00:45:44,524 --> 00:45:49,724
Speaker 2: the outside like God, they that person must be that

861
00:45:49,844 --> 00:45:52,204
Speaker 2: must be like a lot of talent, or that must

862
00:45:52,244 --> 00:45:55,404
Speaker 2: be like that's an amazing connection. Or that must and

863
00:45:55,564 --> 00:45:58,844
Speaker 2: almost always it's just like they were willing to risk

864
00:45:58,924 --> 00:46:02,644
Speaker 2: failure and they were willing to try really really really hard,

865
00:46:03,404 --> 00:46:06,164
Speaker 2: and they're ring the most out of like a talent

866
00:46:06,204 --> 00:46:09,844
Speaker 2: that might not actually be greater than someone else is.

867
00:46:10,164 --> 00:46:13,684
Speaker 2: It's just like the willingness to look ridiculous and the

868
00:46:13,724 --> 00:46:16,964
Speaker 2: willingness to fall on your face and the willingness to

869
00:46:17,724 --> 00:46:23,324
Speaker 2: feel bad because you're called to do it, and you

870
00:46:23,364 --> 00:46:25,604
Speaker 2: stack those things. You're aware of it, especially as you

871
00:46:25,604 --> 00:46:28,964
Speaker 2: get older. I was aware of it, and I am

872
00:46:29,044 --> 00:46:32,804
Speaker 2: aware of it, and it's just like a problem that

873
00:46:32,844 --> 00:46:37,964
Speaker 2: I'm drawn to. And that's the hallmark for all the things.

874
00:46:39,004 --> 00:46:40,484
Speaker 2: And that goes back to the thing I started with

875
00:46:40,524 --> 00:46:44,284
Speaker 2: about self knowledge. It's like the greater risk for me

876
00:46:44,364 --> 00:46:47,044
Speaker 2: is not doing those things because I'll feel bad and

877
00:46:47,124 --> 00:46:50,644
Speaker 2: I won't I won't feel like I could answer the questions.

878
00:46:50,684 --> 00:46:53,444
Speaker 2: You have a good day, honestly because I didn't chase

879
00:46:53,524 --> 00:46:56,244
Speaker 2: those I didn't listen to that spark. But I have

880
00:46:56,404 --> 00:46:57,844
Speaker 2: to listen to it. I have. That's why I do

881
00:46:57,884 --> 00:47:01,604
Speaker 2: morning pages, meditate because that stuff surfaces. You want to

882
00:47:01,644 --> 00:47:04,084
Speaker 2: write songs, Go do it, take the risk. What's the

883
00:47:04,124 --> 00:47:06,684
Speaker 2: worst that happens? Is you hear know a lot? Okay,

884
00:47:06,884 --> 00:47:08,324
Speaker 2: you'll hear no and you'll try again.

885
00:47:09,044 --> 00:47:12,044
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well I have many more questions, but I think

886
00:47:12,044 --> 00:47:14,564
Speaker 1: that that is just such a beautiful place to end,

887
00:47:15,084 --> 00:47:17,724
Speaker 1: so I could. I couldn't have thought of a better

888
00:47:17,764 --> 00:47:19,764
Speaker 1: way to put it. Thank you so much for coming on, Brian.

889
00:47:19,804 --> 00:47:21,444
Speaker 1: It's been such a pleasure.

890
00:47:21,484 --> 00:47:22,884
Speaker 2: Maria, It's my pleasure.

891
00:47:22,964 --> 00:47:41,804
Speaker 3: Thanks.

892
00:47:42,524 --> 00:47:45,644
Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kannakova and me

893
00:47:45,844 --> 00:47:48,804
Speaker 1: Mate Silver. The show is a co production of Pushkin

894
00:47:48,884 --> 00:47:53,404
Speaker 1: Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced by Isabelle Carter.

895
00:47:53,804 --> 00:47:57,684
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Gabriel Hunter Chang. Our executive producer

896
00:47:57,724 --> 00:48:00,124
Speaker 1: is Jacob Goldstein. And if you want to listen to

897
00:48:00,164 --> 00:48:02,644
Speaker 1: an AD free version, sign up for Pushkin Plus.

898
00:48:02,644 --> 00:48:03,964
Speaker 2: For six seventy nine a month.

899
00:48:04,204 --> 00:48:07,004
Speaker 3: You get access to ad free listening. Thanks for tuning

900
00:48:07,084 --> 00:48:18,284
Speaker 3: in only f