WEBVTT - Charlie Sykes, Tom Steyer & David Leonhardt

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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<v Speaker 1>where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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<v Speaker 1>today's best minds. And Judge Cannon has rejected Jack Smith's

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<v Speaker 1>request for a gag order against Donald Trump in the

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<v Speaker 1>classified documents case. We have such a great show for you.

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<v Speaker 1>Former presidential candidate Tom Steyer stops by to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>his new book, Cheaper, Faster, Better, how We'll win the

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<v Speaker 1>climate wars. Then we'll talk to the New York Times

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<v Speaker 1>is David Leonhard about neo populism. But first we have

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<v Speaker 1>MSNBC columnist and contributor and friend of mine Charlie Sykes.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to Fast Politics. Charlie Sykes.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, things are going so well, aren't they.

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<v Speaker 1>We were just before this. I was like, tell me, honestly,

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<v Speaker 1>when does American democracy? And okay, but this is like

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<v Speaker 1>democratic hand ringing. I want to point out something that

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<v Speaker 1>I was writing a piece about polls, and so this

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<v Speaker 1>fact came back into the vernacular and I want to

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<v Speaker 1>talk to you about it. Donald Trump actually underperformed all

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<v Speaker 1>of these primary contests, despite the fact that he was

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<v Speaker 1>running again to no one.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's right, and even though Nicky Haley was Nicky Haley,

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<v Speaker 2>as we should have known she was going to be.

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<v Speaker 2>That doesn't mean that she's going to change the dynamic

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<v Speaker 2>of what you'sa on the primary is that there are

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of Republicans that just are not at this

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<v Speaker 2>point willing to vote for Donald Trump. Now, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, the big question is do they all come home?

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<v Speaker 2>Do they consolidate? Is there this process of normalization where

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<v Speaker 2>Nicky says, well, of course I'll vote for Donald Trump,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, And then you get the various CEOs who

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<v Speaker 2>decide that tax policy involving passed through interest is way

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<v Speaker 2>more important than any of these other issues, like to

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<v Speaker 2>like democracy or whether or not people have just made

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<v Speaker 2>the decision that Donald Trump is just too deplorable. This

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<v Speaker 2>is the mind blowing thing. I don't know, if you

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<v Speaker 2>read my piece in The Atlantic where I talked about airsickness,

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<v Speaker 2>where it's disorienting, it's vertigenous to watch Donald Trump, to

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<v Speaker 2>listen to Donald Trump, to see how he behaves, who

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<v Speaker 2>this man is, and that not just millions of voters,

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<v Speaker 2>because I mean, you know, I've decided that it's okay,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, people who know better in the Republican Party.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're going to find out whether or not we

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<v Speaker 2>have the replay of twenty sixteen where they all hold

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<v Speaker 2>their nose and figure that, you know, tribalism is more

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<v Speaker 2>important than democracy, or whether or not we're still going

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<v Speaker 2>to have ten twenty percent of Republicans saying yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>screw that, I'm not when we're not getting on the

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<v Speaker 2>Trump train. Who knows?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And nobody knows, and anyone who tells you they

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<v Speaker 1>know doesn't know. And in fact, even you know, Nate

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<v Speaker 1>Cohen from the New York Times, who's a polster, wrote

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<v Speaker 1>a really good piece about just how difficult it is

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<v Speaker 1>to measure a shifting electorate. Right, the electorate who voted

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty sixteen will make Trump president again. That is

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<v Speaker 1>a very shaky electorate that hadn't voted in any other

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<v Speaker 1>election ever, And so they may not come out in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty four and.

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<v Speaker 2>We won't know for money and moms, And this week

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be rather significant, right, I mean, this

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be a pivotal week. We're going to

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<v Speaker 2>get the you know, as you and I are speaking,

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<v Speaker 2>they're they're concluding the you know, the final arguments in

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<v Speaker 2>the Trump hush money trial, and we're probably going to

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<v Speaker 2>get a verdict one way or another. It's either going

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<v Speaker 2>to be guilty, not guilty, or a hung jury. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's very unlikely it's going to be not guilty

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<v Speaker 2>or split charges, and of course you know within that

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<v Speaker 2>subset you have split charges. The big question of twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty four, as it has been feels like for the

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<v Speaker 2>last eight years, is does anything matter? Will anything make

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<v Speaker 2>a difference. I'm in the camp that says that until

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<v Speaker 2>proven otherwise, a felony conviction is not a plus. That

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean it's going to be decisive, but it is

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<v Speaker 2>not a plus. It makes it even more cringe worthy

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<v Speaker 2>for all the Republicans to gather here in my hometown

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<v Speaker 2>in Milwaukee and nominate a convicted felon. That seems problematic

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<v Speaker 2>to me. But then I'm old school.

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<v Speaker 1>I agree that a criminal conviction does not help Donald Trump,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think that again, I feel like, what happens

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<v Speaker 1>with punditry, and you tell me if I'm wrong, is

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<v Speaker 1>there's so much thinking that people start to like game

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<v Speaker 1>out different insane scenarios and all of a sudden, you're like,

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<v Speaker 1>Trump didn't win the primaries because he got indicted. He

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<v Speaker 1>won the primaries because nobody ran as anything else but

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<v Speaker 1>mimeographs of him.

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<v Speaker 2>You're right, there's so many aspects to all of this.

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<v Speaker 2>It is still remarkable. It is still amazing that Donald

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<v Speaker 2>Trump is is going to be the Republican nominee. But

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<v Speaker 2>you're right about the pundit brain. I've actually been trying

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<v Speaker 2>to step away from that because you know, you have

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<v Speaker 2>your face pressed up against the screen, you know, pressed

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<v Speaker 2>up against that, you know, fire hose of speculation, and

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<v Speaker 2>the answer is, we don't know. So you know, what

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to do is step back and say, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>what's actually happening to the country, and what are the stakes?

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<v Speaker 2>And I wish the media would focus less on the

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<v Speaker 2>horse race than the stakes. But the problem is is

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<v Speaker 2>that there are so many rabbit holes, and they're so

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<v Speaker 2>tempting to go down, and with the best of intentions,

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<v Speaker 2>every once in a while, I'll realize, how did I

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<v Speaker 2>get here at the the rabbit hole? Why have I

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<v Speaker 2>spent now hours speculating about something that a week from

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<v Speaker 2>now we'll know the answer one way or another. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>we will know whether Trump is convicted or not. So

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<v Speaker 2>we could spend hours talking about like what was the

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<v Speaker 2>effect of Costello's cross examination or how did Michael Cohen do? Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>you know we're going to find out pretty soon, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>so maybe take a deep breath. Everybody needs, all of

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<v Speaker 2>America needs to take a deep breath and decide where

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<v Speaker 2>do we want to go as a country? Are you

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<v Speaker 2>really going to do this again? And frankly, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>interested in having a debate about tax policy right now.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like this, this is the reality facing us.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's a really good point, and I do

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<v Speaker 1>think that one of the things that I'm struck by

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<v Speaker 1>is if you don't follow politics at all, you like

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump, but if you read newspapers you don't so like.

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<v Speaker 1>Clearly there is an infration vacuum here that is I

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<v Speaker 1>think created by technology companies, or at least exacerbated by

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<v Speaker 1>technology companies, that is interesting, destructive, and quite scary.

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<v Speaker 3>Can we talk about that.

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<v Speaker 2>We can blame the media for this, but I also

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<v Speaker 2>think that there's something that's happened in American culture that

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<v Speaker 2>is perhaps underappreciative, or maybe maybe we're faced with it

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<v Speaker 2>every single day that you know, there had been an

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<v Speaker 2>assumption that we understood what the American character was what

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<v Speaker 2>the American people wanted, how deep and broad our sense

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<v Speaker 2>of a consensus about liberal constitutional democracy was. And maybe

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<v Speaker 2>that's all wrong, you know. And as I said, pulling

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<v Speaker 2>the lens back, I was reading something this morning. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it was an old quote from Bill Clinton, of

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<v Speaker 2>all people, who said, basically, in American politics, people want

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<v Speaker 2>the strong person, and they don't want to vote for

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<v Speaker 2>the weak person. And right now, Donald Trump, again, keep

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<v Speaker 2>in mind, you and I we follow this. We know

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<v Speaker 2>what Donald Trump tweeted, I mean, bleeded out on one more.

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<v Speaker 2>We know what Donald Trump says. But let's pull back

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<v Speaker 2>to people who are not that that engage. They see

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<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump right now as a stronger and more dynamic figure,

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<v Speaker 2>and they see Joe Biden as sort of weak and

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<v Speaker 2>struggling to become more relevant, which is again kind of

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<v Speaker 2>the mind blowing thing. The man's the president of the

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<v Speaker 2>United States, and yet he is overshadowed by this clown

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<v Speaker 2>figure who is facing felony charges in New York. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is part of the problem that Joe

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<v Speaker 2>Biden has. And I think the cliche, of course, is

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<v Speaker 2>to focus on Biden's age. It's a fill in for

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<v Speaker 2>this larger sense of like, what is he doing? What

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<v Speaker 2>does he stand for? Is he up for it? Is

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<v Speaker 2>he the strong leader who is going to solve all

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<v Speaker 2>of these problems that we face here. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>that that's something that I get the sense the White

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<v Speaker 2>House understands that. I think you're seeing these attempts, but

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<v Speaker 2>it is difficult. I think you know that Donald Trump

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<v Speaker 2>is painting with these broad, crude, you know colors, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>garish colors. You know that I am the leader, I

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<v Speaker 2>am the change agent. And you get a much more mixed,

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<v Speaker 2>more nuanced message from Joe Biden, which in our culture

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<v Speaker 2>has a much harder time breaking through.

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<v Speaker 4>It's so depressing.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, whatever, we shouldn't despair because we're just months

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<v Speaker 1>and months away. But the thing about having the world's

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<v Speaker 1>longest election is that Trump has been running for president

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<v Speaker 1>now since a week after the midterms.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it feels like we have been in this campaign

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<v Speaker 2>now for eight years. I mean, it feels as if

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<v Speaker 2>and this is this is part of the disorientation, you

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<v Speaker 2>know how I mean, I remember back in twenty fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>and twenty sixteen thinking, you know, how disastrous it would

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<v Speaker 2>be if Donald Trump was elected and yet we had

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<v Speaker 2>no idea. We had no idea the effect that he

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<v Speaker 2>would have. I think you could find things that we

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<v Speaker 2>wrote that said we thought we did. But the degree

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<v Speaker 2>in which he has changed the media environment, the cultural environment,

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<v Speaker 2>the moral environment, what is considered ecceptible, what is considered disqualifying.

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<v Speaker 1>And the Republican Party.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, there's no question about it. There were people who

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<v Speaker 2>thought the Republican Party would change Donald Trump.

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<v Speaker 4>It did not.

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<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump changed the Republican Party. And we see that

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<v Speaker 2>on a daily basis.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I was at this dinner in DC and

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<v Speaker 1>a person who's a you know, very smart writer, editor genius,

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<v Speaker 1>was saying the thing that just made me want to die.

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<v Speaker 1>I was thinking about the day to day corruption that

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<v Speaker 1>Trump normalized. You know, we were talking about Scott Pruitt.

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<v Speaker 1>Remember Scott Prewit, Yes.

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<v Speaker 4>I do.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually see nobody else, Yeah, with.

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<v Speaker 1>The tactical pants who went to Cafe Milano every night.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, there were so many, you know, sort of

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<v Speaker 1>this low level corruption in government, which already Americans had

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<v Speaker 1>anxiety about, got so exacerbated. It was just I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>just thinking about it makes me shudder.

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<v Speaker 2>But here here's the bad News Molley, and we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to look back nostalgically upon that era because a Trump

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<v Speaker 2>two point zero presidency is not going to be peopled

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<v Speaker 2>by even quasi normies. You look back on the Trump cabinet.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually I did this the other day. Go back to

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<v Speaker 2>look at the Trump cabinet in early twenty seventeen. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>we were all hair on fire about what it represented,

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<v Speaker 2>but that was a you know, by current standards, and this,

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<v Speaker 2>by the way, shows how the window has moved. You

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<v Speaker 2>look back and go, that was a pretty normal cabinet.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, by and large, those were actual grown ups

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<v Speaker 2>who had who had accomplished and said. But one of

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<v Speaker 2>the things that Donald Trump has learned, he's the lesson

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<v Speaker 2>he's learned is I don't want those grown up normies

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<v Speaker 2>around me. I don't want anyone who's going to say,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want a vice president like Mike Pence, who

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<v Speaker 2>may be you know, slavishly loyal, but but has you know,

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<v Speaker 2>still a little bit of integrity and principle left. I

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<v Speaker 2>have to make sure that all of that is gone.

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<v Speaker 4>So yeah, yeah, we have.

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<v Speaker 2>The low level sort of discrudity and the grifters, like

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<v Speaker 2>like the Scott Prewitz of the world. What's coming, I

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<v Speaker 2>think is going to be much much worse.

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<v Speaker 1>But what is interesting when you look at these dat

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<v Speaker 1>ballot right is Republicans have a very good Senate map

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<v Speaker 1>for them, but they don't have great candidates.

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<v Speaker 2>No, they have done this again and again over the years,

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<v Speaker 2>nominated bizarre, unelectable candidates. And this goes back as long

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<v Speaker 2>as I can remember him in the Sharon engeles and

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, who can forget Christine O'Donnell i am not

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<v Speaker 2>a witch or Todd Aiken talking about legitimate rate in

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<v Speaker 2>the before times, those comments, you know, that kind of

0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:28.680
<v Speaker 2>behavior was automatically disqualifying, And of course Donald Trump says

0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:31.840
<v Speaker 2>or does something almost on a daily basis that would

0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:36.480
<v Speaker 2>have been disqualifying for any other generation of candidates. So

0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.559
<v Speaker 2>they're testing the proposition about whether or not those standards

0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.080
<v Speaker 2>exist now down ballot as well, whether or not they're

0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:45.120
<v Speaker 2>going to blow these races as they have in the past,

0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:48.520
<v Speaker 2>or whether or not the moral window has shifted so

0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.400
<v Speaker 2>radically that people will go, yeah, we just don't care

0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:52.440
<v Speaker 2>about that crazy shit.

0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:55.160
<v Speaker 1>It does seem to me, though, while the Republican Party

0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.600
<v Speaker 1>has gone along with Trump, these Senate candidates. The thing

0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.000
<v Speaker 1>that unites all of them is that they are most

0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.160
<v Speaker 1>of them are self funders, right, because that money needs

0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.840
<v Speaker 1>to go to Donald Trump's criminal cases, his criminal lawyers,

0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.240
<v Speaker 1>so that money is not for candidates. But then also

0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.120
<v Speaker 1>so they're largely self funders, and then they also tend

0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:20.200
<v Speaker 1>to be carpetbaggers. So you got Dave McCormick flying from

0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:25.360
<v Speaker 1>Greenwich to Pennsylvania. Right, You've got Eric Hovdy, he's got

0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.240
<v Speaker 1>a weird mustache, he owns banks in California. You have

0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:32.240
<v Speaker 1>flying to Wisconsin. I mean, that's clearly a thing they're doing, right.

0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:32.959
<v Speaker 4>That's right.

0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.959
<v Speaker 2>You know, McCormick is probably the closest to the normy

0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.120
<v Speaker 2>candidate that Republicans would like. I just don't know whether

0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.600
<v Speaker 2>or not carpetbagging carries the way that perhaps once would have.

0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.200
<v Speaker 2>We have a long tradition of people, you know, moving around.

0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.439
<v Speaker 2>You know, Eric Hovedy in Wisconsin is an interesting case

0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:52.400
<v Speaker 2>because he has been almost completely absent from Wisconsin politics

0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.800
<v Speaker 2>since his last Senate bid. I know the guy, I've

0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.640
<v Speaker 2>had lunch with him, and let's just say that he

0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.920
<v Speaker 2>does not lack for healthy self regard guard I mean,

0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.680
<v Speaker 2>really healthy self regard. But having said that, I would

0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.120
<v Speaker 2>love an explanation for why he's wearing the seventies porn stash.

0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.480
<v Speaker 2>I just I don't quite get that he's one of

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.000
<v Speaker 2>those candidates that I don't think is going to wear well,

0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.480
<v Speaker 2>even though he's been polling reasonably well. But those are

0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.160
<v Speaker 2>the candidates that I think, at least on paper, they're

0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.599
<v Speaker 2>not the Carrie Lake type candidate. And Carrie Lake is

0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.959
<v Speaker 2>an interesting person because Arizona is very much a swing

0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.880
<v Speaker 2>state that ought to have been top of the target.

0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.680
<v Speaker 2>And here once again you see the Republicans who apparently

0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.560
<v Speaker 2>are at least conceding that one seat. Whether that's going

0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:36.199
<v Speaker 2>to make a difference, but I think that we need

0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.880
<v Speaker 2>to go into this election with the assumption that there

0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.080
<v Speaker 2>is going to be a Republican Senate just because of

0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.080
<v Speaker 2>the map what's going on, you know, in West Virginia,

0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.240
<v Speaker 2>because that's almost an automatic pickup for the Republicans. And

0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.880
<v Speaker 2>so this is what also makes the prospect of a

0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:54.040
<v Speaker 2>Trump presidency so dangerous, because I don't know whether Republicans

0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:57.320
<v Speaker 2>are still telling themselves quietly, Okay, this is bad, but

0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.079
<v Speaker 2>we have to go along with it, because at least

0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.120
<v Speaker 2>he's not Joe Biden, and we will be able to

0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.360
<v Speaker 2>control him. How bad could it be? Well, when's the

0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:08.160
<v Speaker 2>last time that we actually saw the Republicans effectively act

0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:10.800
<v Speaker 2>as a check on Donald Trump? And does anyone really

0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:15.400
<v Speaker 2>believe that a Republican Senate would turn down the more

0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.400
<v Speaker 2>egregious appointees. I just I'm again, the default setting has

0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 2>to be the Republican Party will always cave to Donald

0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Trump when it comes to things like personnel and judges.

0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.320
<v Speaker 1>Right, And I think that's a really good point. There's

0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:33.440
<v Speaker 1>not going to be any checks and balances. That's what

0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.760
<v Speaker 1>it is. And I think there weren't that many checks

0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:38.200
<v Speaker 1>and balances the last time.

0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:40.480
<v Speaker 2>Mitch McConnell would every once in a while toy with

0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.520
<v Speaker 2>it and play with it, but then would cave in.

0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:44.840
<v Speaker 2>But speaking of checks and balances, I just can we

0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.280
<v Speaker 2>focus on one positive things? One positive thing? Over the

0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.880
<v Speaker 2>weekend Trump's appearance at the Libertarian convention.

0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.720
<v Speaker 1>Oh yes, And that didn't get that much news. And

0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:54.600
<v Speaker 1>it was amazing.

0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.720
<v Speaker 2>That's why I want to mention that it was amazing. Now,

0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.680
<v Speaker 2>now the Libertarian Party as opposed to libertarianism, I I'm

0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.920
<v Speaker 2>open to libertarianism. Libertarian party has been kind of taken

0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:06.920
<v Speaker 2>over by crackpots a long time ago. I mean, this

0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.320
<v Speaker 2>is an eccentric group. And so one of the questions

0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.280
<v Speaker 2>was have they become so crackpotty that they would be

0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.880
<v Speaker 2>open to an RFK that they would actually think that

0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:18.040
<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump is a libertarian? And I don't know what

0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.760
<v Speaker 2>they were thinking. I mean, this is a really interesting question.

0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.400
<v Speaker 2>What were the Trump folks thinking. What did they think

0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:25.400
<v Speaker 2>was going to happen when he showed up at this

0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.920
<v Speaker 2>libertarian convention? Because they bowed the shit out of him.

0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean they chump. I mean, it was it was

0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.320
<v Speaker 2>a make Rick Wilson says, somebody's going to lose their

0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.000
<v Speaker 2>job over this, and you think so, I mean, he's

0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:38.240
<v Speaker 2>got to come off the stage and going did anybody

0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.000
<v Speaker 2>know it was going to be this bad? Because people,

0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.560
<v Speaker 2>everyone knew it was going to be this bad, and

0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.680
<v Speaker 2>there it was, and they're like hippocrid, hippocrede, hippie grip.

0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.360
<v Speaker 2>So it was one of those rare, rare moments where

0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.560
<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump has stepped out of the bubble of his

0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.800
<v Speaker 2>own rallies. He does travel in a bubble except when

0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.200
<v Speaker 2>he has to course no face his felony charges. It

0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.440
<v Speaker 2>was interesting to watch how he handled and of course

0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.400
<v Speaker 2>he snapped them and said, well, you know what you

0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:02.560
<v Speaker 2>want your three percent.

0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:02.800
<v Speaker 1>Of the vote.

0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:04.880
<v Speaker 2>You know you want to lose that sort of thing.

0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.520
<v Speaker 2>You know how to win friends and influence people. So

0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.240
<v Speaker 2>it was a reminder how Trump kind of melts down

0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.720
<v Speaker 2>when he's confronted with people who are calling out his bullshit.

0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:19.080
<v Speaker 2>And basically, you had an entire convention basically saying Trump bullshit.

0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.920
<v Speaker 2>You've had your shot. You're not a libertarian, you don't

0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.640
<v Speaker 2>represent liberty. And I think in the end he got

0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.000
<v Speaker 2>out of eight hundred votes, I think he got six

0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:34.320
<v Speaker 2>right ends, which is Chef's kiss. So much moved, but

0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:38.000
<v Speaker 2>Molly was also interesting watching people like Mike Lee go

0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.400
<v Speaker 2>on television the next day and implying that this was

0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.480
<v Speaker 2>great or the usual turd polishers suggesting that maybe it

0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.920
<v Speaker 2>wasn't so bad after all, And of course Donald Trump

0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.560
<v Speaker 2>is pretending it's not so bad after so they have

0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:53.240
<v Speaker 2>gotten so used to this gas lighting of like, don't

0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:55.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, pay attention to what actually happened, what you

0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:57.760
<v Speaker 2>saw with your own eyes. I'm going to tell a

0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:01.240
<v Speaker 2>completely different story. They have become a addicted to gas lighting.

0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.200
<v Speaker 2>But also it shows how much contempt they have for

0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:06.960
<v Speaker 2>the voters that they honestly think that they can tell

0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.800
<v Speaker 2>the voters, no, what you just saw happen did not happen.

0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.800
<v Speaker 2>I am going to create my own completely bogus reality,

0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.720
<v Speaker 2>and you are dumb enough or gullible enough to believe it.

0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.760
<v Speaker 2>That contempt for the voters, I think, well, it certainly

0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:26.199
<v Speaker 2>doesn't speak well of their respect for American democracy. And

0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:29.240
<v Speaker 2>we'll see whether or not their lack of confidence is justified.

0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.560
<v Speaker 1>Charlie Sikes, you are awesome. I appreciate you so much.

0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:35.800
<v Speaker 2>And you are a great American. Milling good talking with you.

0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.399
<v Speaker 1>Spring is here, and I bet you are trying to

0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:45.040
<v Speaker 1>look fashionable, So why not pick up some fashionable all

0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:49.760
<v Speaker 1>new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store

0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:54.320
<v Speaker 1>with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats,

0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:59.679
<v Speaker 1>and top bags. To grab some head to fastpolitics dot com.

0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.520
<v Speaker 1>Tom Steyer is a former twenty twenty presidential candidate and

0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.600
<v Speaker 1>author of Cheaper, Faster, Better, How We'll Win the Climate War.

0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.240
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Fast Politics, Tom Steyer.

0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:13.080
<v Speaker 4>Molly, good morning, So.

0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.520
<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about this book. I know I feel like

0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.720
<v Speaker 1>I know why you wrote it, but I want you

0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.159
<v Speaker 1>to explain to us sort of why you decided to

0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:26.040
<v Speaker 1>write this book your trajectory, since you've always been in

0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.800
<v Speaker 1>the climate space, but explain to us why you decided

0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:29.680
<v Speaker 1>to write this well.

0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:31.520
<v Speaker 5>I wanted to write this book because I think the

0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:36.240
<v Speaker 5>two prevailing theories about where we are in the energy

0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:40.120
<v Speaker 5>transition are both wrong. The first one is that we

0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.879
<v Speaker 5>rely on fossil fuels. We've always relied on fossil fuels,

0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:45.960
<v Speaker 5>and we must always rely on fossil fuels, and that's

0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.120
<v Speaker 5>not true. And the second one is that the climate

0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:53.880
<v Speaker 5>is changing, it's changing fast, We've lost control, We're doomed,

0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.359
<v Speaker 5>and that's not true. What I wanted to say was

0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:01.320
<v Speaker 5>something diametrically opposed to both of those points, which which is, yes,

0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:06.160
<v Speaker 5>the natural world is changing faster than most people understand,

0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.120
<v Speaker 5>and not in a good way. But the technology and

0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:14.360
<v Speaker 5>our ability to solve that problem and to basically create

0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:19.000
<v Speaker 5>a better world is much greater than people understand. And

0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.280
<v Speaker 5>so why don't we acknowledge that we have an issue

0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.400
<v Speaker 5>and do what Americans do best, which is when there

0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.040
<v Speaker 5>is something serious to be dealt with, we come together.

0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.159
<v Speaker 5>And solve it together. And that's what I'm proposing, is

0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.200
<v Speaker 5>why don't we just win? Why don't we go back

0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:35.680
<v Speaker 5>to coming together and winning together instead of either one

0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.800
<v Speaker 5>of the two memes that people seem to believe, neither

0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:39.600
<v Speaker 5>of which is true.

0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:44.240
<v Speaker 1>My long suffering spouse was an academic and is very

0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.640
<v Speaker 1>very smart and wrong about a lot of stuff, but smart.

0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.280
<v Speaker 1>But he's really right, or at least he has the

0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.159
<v Speaker 1>same exact theory of the cases you do, which is

0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.480
<v Speaker 1>we're blowing through that one and a half degree change, right,

0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.479
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we're going to miss all our numbers when

0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:02.399
<v Speaker 1>it comes to Paris climate. I mean, talk to us

0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.280
<v Speaker 1>about sort of the state of where we are right now.

0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.160
<v Speaker 5>Sure your description of it perfectly fits the United States

0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:12.800
<v Speaker 5>of America, because what the people in running Paris, which

0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.320
<v Speaker 5>was the UN group, said that we should not go

0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.879
<v Speaker 5>through one and a half degrees see change celsius change.

0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.320
<v Speaker 5>Of course, no one in America lives in celsius.

0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:24.080
<v Speaker 2>No one knows what that means.

0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:28.800
<v Speaker 5>That is absolute gobbledegook. Secondly, people are saying, you know,

0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.359
<v Speaker 5>we are terribly scared about carbon dioxide. What you can't

0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.760
<v Speaker 5>touch it, you can't smell it, you can't see it.

0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.040
<v Speaker 5>No one knows what they're even talking about. And people

0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:41.720
<v Speaker 5>are going like this is terrible. It's like what Yeah,

0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:45.520
<v Speaker 5>So let me say this. What we've seen that scientists

0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:49.359
<v Speaker 5>and people focused on this problem notice, is that we're

0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:53.119
<v Speaker 5>getting warmer, faster than scientists had predicted. And what the

0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:55.800
<v Speaker 5>people in Paris in twenty fifteen said is, don't go

0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.000
<v Speaker 5>through one and a half degrees celsius, which is somewhere

0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:02.280
<v Speaker 5>too between two and three degrees fahrenheit, which is where

0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.520
<v Speaker 5>we all live, right And they said, if you go

0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:06.440
<v Speaker 5>through that, you're going to start taking a lot of risk.

0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.600
<v Speaker 5>And if you go through two degrees celsius, which is

0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.240
<v Speaker 5>three point six degrees fahrenheit, you're going to get into

0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:14.520
<v Speaker 5>a lot of trouble right now if you do the

0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.760
<v Speaker 5>last twelve months, The last twelve months were one point

0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:21.960
<v Speaker 5>six degrees celsius hotter than pre industrial So those are

0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.040
<v Speaker 5>all just numbers that scientists care about. They are going

0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:30.040
<v Speaker 5>faster than people expected, The impacts are greater than scientists predicted,

0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.000
<v Speaker 5>and so yes, we have a real issue on our

0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.919
<v Speaker 5>hands that is worse than the un expected or all

0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:40.359
<v Speaker 5>these scientists expected. Having said that, yeah, that's why we have.

0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:42.639
<v Speaker 5>If it weren't a real thing, I wouldn't be spending

0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.520
<v Speaker 5>a ton of time trying to work on it and

0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:48.399
<v Speaker 5>invest in solutions and come up with solutions. But the

0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:50.640
<v Speaker 5>other thing that's true is I can look at those

0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:54.119
<v Speaker 5>solutions day to day and say, Wow, that's great. We

0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:56.840
<v Speaker 5>not only have the ability to win this, we are

0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.800
<v Speaker 5>winning it. We're definitely going to win it. So why

0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.080
<v Speaker 5>don't we do that together and do what Americans do,

0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:04.200
<v Speaker 5>which is pull together in a crisis.

0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:06.720
<v Speaker 1>One of the things that I'm struck by is it

0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:10.240
<v Speaker 1>seems like people, for example, we just had someone on

0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.199
<v Speaker 1>this podcast to talk about Florida. Florida is feeling the

0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.560
<v Speaker 1>effects of the climate crisis on the regular Right, they

0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:21.240
<v Speaker 1>have tornadoes in ways they've never had, but also their

0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:25.320
<v Speaker 1>insurance has gone up percentages that are like a joke, right,

0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:29.480
<v Speaker 1>the double tripled, quadrupled. So you know, it's unsustainable to

0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:34.080
<v Speaker 1>have people paying hundreds of dollars of thousands of dollars

0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:38.879
<v Speaker 1>of insurance every month. So I'm curious, like, why do

0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.679
<v Speaker 1>you think it's so hard for people to put together

0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:45.280
<v Speaker 1>massive flooding with climate change?

0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:48.399
<v Speaker 5>Well, first, let's take a step back. MALLI, which is this.

0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:50.920
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I know that everything in the country is

0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:53.800
<v Speaker 5>being politicized, every issue, and this is one of them.

0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.000
<v Speaker 5>But let's take a step back before we talk about that,

0:22:56.240 --> 0:23:00.680
<v Speaker 5>and that's this. If you pull registered Republicans, they get it.

0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.080
<v Speaker 5>If you ask them, should we have a stronger climate

0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:07.800
<v Speaker 5>response from the federal government, they say yes. No, one

0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:11.399
<v Speaker 5>is unsure about what's going on because everybody is seeing

0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:14.760
<v Speaker 5>the impact. As you said, you know the most Republican,

0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:17.720
<v Speaker 5>the reddest states are kind of in arms way more

0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:21.359
<v Speaker 5>than anybody else. Or to Texas, Louisiana, you know that

0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:25.520
<v Speaker 5>whole Gulf Coast. Yes, so people actually know it. But

0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:29.240
<v Speaker 5>if you look at Republican voters, they will say, yes,

0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:31.480
<v Speaker 5>we should have a stronger climate response. Yes, I know

0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.359
<v Speaker 5>this is happening. Yes, I know it's human cause somewhere.

0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:36.600
<v Speaker 5>But depending on how you ask the question, somewhere between

0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:39.680
<v Speaker 5>fifty five and seventy five percent. The issue is they

0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:43.440
<v Speaker 5>don't see it as a critical urgent issue from a

0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:47.600
<v Speaker 5>voting standpoint, and therefore, you know, it doesn't really matter

0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:49.679
<v Speaker 5>to the people they're voting for because it's not going

0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:52.520
<v Speaker 5>to change their vote, and politicians care about things that

0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:57.680
<v Speaker 5>change votes. But having said that. Yes, Really, what we're

0:23:57.680 --> 0:24:00.040
<v Speaker 5>talking about in trying to solve this is to a

0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:04.920
<v Speaker 5>avoid almost unimaginable human suffering, and we can definitely do it.

0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:08.639
<v Speaker 5>And all of us want that, and all of us,

0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:11.320
<v Speaker 5>you know, want our country to be strong and to

0:24:11.400 --> 0:24:14.159
<v Speaker 5>do the right thing and for America to be the

0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:17.600
<v Speaker 5>leader and the that we've always been. So when I

0:24:17.640 --> 0:24:21.439
<v Speaker 5>look at this, I say, sure, why is insurance up

0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:23.840
<v Speaker 5>in Florida. Well, if you build a house in a

0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:26.840
<v Speaker 5>floodplane and you know that it's going to flood, insurance

0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:29.000
<v Speaker 5>companies have to charge a lot of money or they're

0:24:29.040 --> 0:24:31.199
<v Speaker 5>going to lose a lot. You know, Normally building a

0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:35.280
<v Speaker 5>house in a floodplane is not advisable, and you can't

0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:38.200
<v Speaker 5>ask an insurance company to take away the risk if

0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.320
<v Speaker 5>the risk is really overwhelming. So we are in a

0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:47.440
<v Speaker 5>situation where we need to adapt to what's changed and prevent,

0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:51.520
<v Speaker 5>you know, really use the new technologies. That's why my

0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:56.520
<v Speaker 5>book is called Cheaper, Faster, Better, Use stuff that is better.

0:24:56.560 --> 0:24:58.800
<v Speaker 5>We're not asking people to buy stuff they don't want.

0:24:59.200 --> 0:25:03.480
<v Speaker 5>We're saying, let's win in the marketplace. Let's create the products,

0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:08.160
<v Speaker 5>Let's create the processes that actually give us a better

0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:11.560
<v Speaker 5>life so that people choose them willingly. And that's where

0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:13.600
<v Speaker 5>we are and that's what we're trying to do. And

0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:17.000
<v Speaker 5>that works for Democrats, that works for Republicans, that works

0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:17.800
<v Speaker 5>for America.

0:25:17.840 --> 0:25:21.359
<v Speaker 1>So let's do a minute or two on why this

0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:24.199
<v Speaker 1>is so much cheaper, because at this point you have

0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:29.359
<v Speaker 1>a state like Texas. These are not left y ideologes, right,

0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:34.160
<v Speaker 1>they are absolutely very The leadership in Texas very right wing.

0:25:34.720 --> 0:25:39.359
<v Speaker 1>They are running largely on solar. I mean, the reason

0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:42.800
<v Speaker 1>that their grid did not die this winter as it

0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:45.800
<v Speaker 1>has in previous winters was because of solar. So though

0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:49.000
<v Speaker 1>they're not running largely on it, there certainly are checks

0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:53.040
<v Speaker 1>and balances courtesy of solar because solar is cheaper. So

0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:55.560
<v Speaker 1>make it make sense, is well.

0:25:55.600 --> 0:25:58.280
<v Speaker 5>First of all, Texas has a very special electric grid,

0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:01.600
<v Speaker 5>and it's self contained and is designed to be as

0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:05.399
<v Speaker 5>competitive and free market as possible, as you said, while

0:26:05.400 --> 0:26:09.480
<v Speaker 5>the legislators in Texas have been saying how bad renewables

0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:12.600
<v Speaker 5>are and how important it is to support the fossil

0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:16.320
<v Speaker 5>fuel economy, the amount of solar in Texas is tripled

0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:19.800
<v Speaker 5>twenty eighteen. It's scheduled to go up another thirty five

0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:24.000
<v Speaker 5>percent this year. They have more solar than they have coal.

0:26:24.320 --> 0:26:27.960
<v Speaker 5>They're by far the biggest wind producer in the United

0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:31.760
<v Speaker 5>States of America because wind is solar cheaper, and they

0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:34.520
<v Speaker 5>need that for that grid because they also have had

0:26:34.560 --> 0:26:38.360
<v Speaker 5>some really cold storms and they have really really hot summers,

0:26:38.600 --> 0:26:42.560
<v Speaker 5>and so to protect people from really to protect their

0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:46.480
<v Speaker 5>health and the extremes of cold and heat, they need

0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:50.000
<v Speaker 5>a grid that's resilient. And by the way, solar and

0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:52.879
<v Speaker 5>wind are the cheapest sources of energy. So when we

0:26:53.000 --> 0:26:56.800
<v Speaker 5>think about cheaper, faster, better, Texas is a perfect example

0:26:57.400 --> 0:27:01.199
<v Speaker 5>because human beings are smart, and solar power used to

0:27:01.200 --> 0:27:04.159
<v Speaker 5>be a heck of a lot more expensive than fossil

0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:07.080
<v Speaker 5>fuel power, and so did with but you know what,

0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:09.760
<v Speaker 5>people kept working on it and working on it and

0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:12.040
<v Speaker 5>working on it and making it better and cheaper and

0:27:12.080 --> 0:27:14.399
<v Speaker 5>better and cheaper, and now it's much cheaper. And you

0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:16.320
<v Speaker 5>want to know something, it's going to get a lot

0:27:16.400 --> 0:27:18.879
<v Speaker 5>cheaper from there. So when we look at this, what

0:27:18.880 --> 0:27:23.920
<v Speaker 5>we're seeing is human ingenuity. American ingenuity is better than

0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:27.520
<v Speaker 5>dead dinosaurs. It's better now, and it's going to only continue.

0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:31.440
<v Speaker 5>That gap is only going to continue cheaper, faster, better.

0:27:31.840 --> 0:27:34.600
<v Speaker 1>Can you talk for a minute about this sort of

0:27:34.640 --> 0:27:35.520
<v Speaker 1>grid update.

0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:38.879
<v Speaker 5>So, look, one of the things that has been true

0:27:39.359 --> 0:27:42.960
<v Speaker 5>in the United States is we can see how all

0:27:43.000 --> 0:27:46.800
<v Speaker 5>of these technologies work, but they have to be their

0:27:46.960 --> 0:27:50.280
<v Speaker 5>physical things that have to be built in the real world,

0:27:50.320 --> 0:27:52.879
<v Speaker 5>which means they have to be permitted in the real world,

0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:55.720
<v Speaker 5>and then they have to be attached to the electric

0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:59.120
<v Speaker 5>grids so that the energy can be delivered to consumers.

0:27:59.480 --> 0:28:02.480
<v Speaker 5>And that is both of those things have proved because

0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:07.560
<v Speaker 5>the approvals and the way that they pay for access

0:28:07.560 --> 0:28:12.000
<v Speaker 5>to the grid are all really old fashioned and cumbersome

0:28:12.240 --> 0:28:17.160
<v Speaker 5>and slow and cause incredible delays and cost Having said that,

0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:20.160
<v Speaker 5>so one of the things is we need to simplify

0:28:20.280 --> 0:28:26.800
<v Speaker 5>the approval mechanism for both permitting new renewable installations and

0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:30.359
<v Speaker 5>also easing access to the grid, because they are both

0:28:30.440 --> 0:28:35.000
<v Speaker 5>gigantic bottlenecks. Having said which, you know, you know, we

0:28:35.080 --> 0:28:40.920
<v Speaker 5>see incredible technological work being done across the board, Molly,

0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:43.760
<v Speaker 5>And there's a company that I highlight in my book

0:28:44.240 --> 0:28:50.000
<v Speaker 5>called Veer Technology, which is basically created a technology that

0:28:50.120 --> 0:28:54.440
<v Speaker 5>allows standard power lines to carry up to five times

0:28:54.480 --> 0:28:57.360
<v Speaker 5>more energy so you don't have to rebuild the grid

0:28:57.440 --> 0:28:59.920
<v Speaker 5>in order to do this. That in fact, there's a

0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:03.400
<v Speaker 5>technology to use the existing grid, to use the existing

0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:07.040
<v Speaker 5>footprint and carry five times as much electricity. And that's

0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:11.560
<v Speaker 5>my point about human ingenuity and American ingenuity. You know

0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:14.280
<v Speaker 5>the guy who started that, Tim Heidel. There are people

0:29:14.360 --> 0:29:18.040
<v Speaker 5>out there looking at how to improve the world from

0:29:18.120 --> 0:29:21.520
<v Speaker 5>a climate response standpoint in a thousand ways, and they

0:29:21.520 --> 0:29:23.880
<v Speaker 5>are all over the place, and they're doing it from

0:29:24.000 --> 0:29:27.120
<v Speaker 5>every angle and they're brilliant. And when you look at it,

0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:30.800
<v Speaker 5>it's like I keep saying, let's come together and solve

0:29:30.840 --> 0:29:34.360
<v Speaker 5>this together. Because we have some great young people around

0:29:34.360 --> 0:29:37.520
<v Speaker 5>the country who are putting all of their energy and

0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:40.720
<v Speaker 5>all of their brain power into figuring out how to

0:29:40.760 --> 0:29:43.000
<v Speaker 5>make this work in the real world. And that's very

0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:47.280
<v Speaker 5>exciting to see. And we have existing incredible technology that

0:29:47.320 --> 0:29:49.840
<v Speaker 5>we can deploy, but also we have so many ideas

0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:51.800
<v Speaker 5>that are so great and not all of them are work,

0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:53.280
<v Speaker 5>but a whole bunch of them will.

0:29:53.400 --> 0:29:56.920
<v Speaker 1>And then we have people like Elon Mosk. Yes, you

0:29:57.080 --> 0:30:01.920
<v Speaker 1>use climate tax incentives to become a complete fascist. I

0:30:01.920 --> 0:30:03.880
<v Speaker 1>mean it infuriates me to know.

0:30:04.040 --> 0:30:05.440
<v Speaker 4>And that is all.

0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:09.960
<v Speaker 5>Look in this people are going to do the right thing.

0:30:10.120 --> 0:30:13.640
<v Speaker 5>From your standpoint, and my standpoint for a whole bunch

0:30:13.640 --> 0:30:16.240
<v Speaker 5>of different reasons. And you know what, we're going to

0:30:16.320 --> 0:30:20.200
<v Speaker 5>have to accept that Americans don't always agree on the

0:30:20.280 --> 0:30:22.959
<v Speaker 5>reasons for doing things, but we need to agree on

0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:25.800
<v Speaker 5>what we're going to accomplish. And if people want to

0:30:25.800 --> 0:30:28.680
<v Speaker 5>do this just purely to make money, and they're gonna

0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:32.160
<v Speaker 5>that's all they're interested in, and it's too fine, right,

0:30:32.200 --> 0:30:36.640
<v Speaker 5>who cares incentive to do things that benefit us all

0:30:37.000 --> 0:30:40.720
<v Speaker 5>and to build companies that help solve this this crisis

0:30:41.040 --> 0:30:43.840
<v Speaker 5>and they do things that I say, fine, It's like,

0:30:43.960 --> 0:30:47.520
<v Speaker 5>we don't need people to have the perfect incentive. We

0:30:47.600 --> 0:30:50.479
<v Speaker 5>need people to work together to solve the problem. And

0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:55.560
<v Speaker 5>if and they're definitely not going to agree on everything,

0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:58.680
<v Speaker 5>and you know what, that's Americans never agree on everything, right,

0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:01.800
<v Speaker 5>and come together in a crisis and put aside our

0:31:01.880 --> 0:31:05.480
<v Speaker 5>differences and just work together. And you know what, if

0:31:05.480 --> 0:31:08.240
<v Speaker 5>people do it for reasons that we don't agree with,

0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.080
<v Speaker 5>if they're doing the work, I say, God bless them.

0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:14.960
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a really good attitude, especially in a

0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:19.840
<v Speaker 1>situation like this where really we're in such a dire state.

0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:23.880
<v Speaker 1>Can you do two seconds on methane? In your take

0:31:23.920 --> 0:31:24.760
<v Speaker 1>on methane.

0:31:24.880 --> 0:31:29.160
<v Speaker 5>Sure, when we think about electricity, people tend to think

0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:32.680
<v Speaker 5>about it in terms of cost per kilo odd hour,

0:31:32.960 --> 0:31:34.680
<v Speaker 5>And if you look at it in terms of cost

0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:38.640
<v Speaker 5>per kilo ood hour, by far the cheapest ways of

0:31:38.640 --> 0:31:41.440
<v Speaker 5>producing energy are solar and wind are the renewables, and

0:31:41.480 --> 0:31:45.120
<v Speaker 5>to be fair, in twenty twenty three last year, of

0:31:45.160 --> 0:31:47.920
<v Speaker 5>the new electricity generation in the world, eighty six percent

0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:50.880
<v Speaker 5>of it was renewable. But when you talk to people

0:31:50.960 --> 0:31:55.800
<v Speaker 5>who are charged with making sure that we have electricity

0:31:56.040 --> 0:32:01.200
<v Speaker 5>twenty four seven three sixty five, they distinguish between the

0:32:01.400 --> 0:32:06.560
<v Speaker 5>energy that is so called intermittent. So solar is intermittent

0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:09.479
<v Speaker 5>because the sun is not always shining, and wind is

0:32:09.520 --> 0:32:13.800
<v Speaker 5>intermittent because the wind is not always blown. But fossil

0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:17.560
<v Speaker 5>fuel energy is something where it's sitting somewhere waiting to

0:32:17.600 --> 0:32:21.040
<v Speaker 5>be used. So therefore it can be considered quote unquote

0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:25.400
<v Speaker 5>base load energy. And the argument that people are using

0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:31.800
<v Speaker 5>now to create more methane capability or they use the

0:32:31.840 --> 0:32:35.560
<v Speaker 5>words natural gas or liquefied natural gas capability around the

0:32:35.560 --> 0:32:39.240
<v Speaker 5>world is for basically that base load, which they say

0:32:39.360 --> 0:32:41.840
<v Speaker 5>is it's not enough to have cheap energy, you need

0:32:41.880 --> 0:32:44.720
<v Speaker 5>to have cheap energy all the time. And so when

0:32:44.760 --> 0:32:49.280
<v Speaker 5>you look at it, people have said that, Okay, methane

0:32:49.320 --> 0:32:53.800
<v Speaker 5>is half as polluting as coal, So if we replace

0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:57.560
<v Speaker 5>coal with methane, that is an improvement of fifty percent.

0:32:57.640 --> 0:33:00.000
<v Speaker 5>That's a big step forward, that's the argument.

0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:02.760
<v Speaker 4>But it makes the climate much hotter, much faster.

0:33:03.000 --> 0:33:05.440
<v Speaker 5>Right. That be true in the lab, but it's not

0:33:05.480 --> 0:33:09.560
<v Speaker 5>true in the real world. If methane escapes as you're

0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:13.360
<v Speaker 5>trying to get deliver it to people's houses to heat

0:33:13.800 --> 0:33:18.000
<v Speaker 5>or cool, that escape. It's an incredibly powerful greenhouse gas.

0:33:18.280 --> 0:33:21.920
<v Speaker 5>And if more than a couple percent escapes, it's worse

0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:24.320
<v Speaker 5>than coal actually in the short run. So the fact

0:33:24.320 --> 0:33:27.080
<v Speaker 5>of the matter is, and we're not sure how much

0:33:27.200 --> 0:33:30.560
<v Speaker 5>escapes because but from what we can tell, it's very

0:33:30.680 --> 0:33:33.440
<v Speaker 5>likely that at least two percent escapes. So it's really

0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:37.840
<v Speaker 5>not a clean solution. It is a solution that is baselok,

0:33:38.040 --> 0:33:40.040
<v Speaker 5>but it's not a clean one. So if we build

0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:42.680
<v Speaker 5>a lot more natural gas capability, which the United States,

0:33:42.680 --> 0:33:43.480
<v Speaker 5>you know, there are a lot of people in the

0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:45.400
<v Speaker 5>United States who want to do that. If we build

0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:48.080
<v Speaker 5>that capability, it's a forty year capability, and that takes

0:33:48.160 --> 0:33:50.200
<v Speaker 5>us that blows us out of the water from meeting

0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:54.640
<v Speaker 5>any of our climacles. It's magical thinking that somehow you

0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:57.880
<v Speaker 5>can keep polluting but pollution won't build up, because of

0:33:57.920 --> 0:34:00.280
<v Speaker 5>course it will. So then the question is, okay, but

0:34:00.400 --> 0:34:04.640
<v Speaker 5>people realistically need to provide energy electricity twenty four to

0:34:04.680 --> 0:34:06.959
<v Speaker 5>seven three sixty five, And how is that possible when

0:34:07.000 --> 0:34:09.640
<v Speaker 5>you have only intermittent stuff? And the answer is, there

0:34:09.680 --> 0:34:11.440
<v Speaker 5>are a bunch of ways that can happen, but the

0:34:11.440 --> 0:34:14.560
<v Speaker 5>biggest one is probably batteries, because what we've seen is

0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:17.839
<v Speaker 5>the cost of batteries of storage. So yes, the sun

0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:20.560
<v Speaker 5>only shines sometimes and the wind only blows sometimes, but

0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:22.959
<v Speaker 5>if you then store it in a battery, you now

0:34:23.040 --> 0:34:26.800
<v Speaker 5>have base load power if the battery lasts long enough,

0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:29.720
<v Speaker 5>and together it's cheap enough, and the cost of battery

0:34:29.800 --> 0:34:33.040
<v Speaker 5>is down eighty percent, and it'll go down a lot more.

0:34:33.400 --> 0:34:36.120
<v Speaker 5>And we're in the process of a lot of people

0:34:36.160 --> 0:34:39.360
<v Speaker 5>building new kinds of batteries and doing new technology and

0:34:39.400 --> 0:34:42.560
<v Speaker 5>batteries to extend duration and to reduce cost. So when

0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:46.040
<v Speaker 5>we look forward, it seems to me in technology there's

0:34:46.200 --> 0:34:49.799
<v Speaker 5>no nothing for certain, but it seems extremely like that

0:34:49.880 --> 0:34:54.560
<v Speaker 5>we will go through a couple of revolutions in battery technology,

0:34:54.600 --> 0:34:57.439
<v Speaker 5>both in terms of cost, which it's already gone through,

0:34:57.760 --> 0:34:59.960
<v Speaker 5>but also in terms of duration so that you can

0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:03.360
<v Speaker 5>actually store the energy long enough so that you have

0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:06.480
<v Speaker 5>a safe twenty four seven, three sixty five. That's the

0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:08.680
<v Speaker 5>first thing I'd say. Second thing is there are a

0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:12.759
<v Speaker 5>couple other things that may fit this bill. One is

0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:17.320
<v Speaker 5>enhanced geothermal, basically tapping the earth for really hot water

0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:20.760
<v Speaker 5>and steam. And the third is can we do safe,

0:35:20.960 --> 0:35:23.719
<v Speaker 5>cheap nuclear. That's very unclear and people in the United

0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:25.880
<v Speaker 5>States have been very scared about both parts of that.

0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:28.800
<v Speaker 5>The safe art is there going to be an accident

0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:31.399
<v Speaker 5>or are we going to create a nuclear waste for

0:35:31.440 --> 0:35:35.240
<v Speaker 5>one hundred thousand years that's incredibly toxic and dangerous to people.

0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:38.359
<v Speaker 5>So they are real issues with nuclear, but people are

0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:41.080
<v Speaker 5>working hard to see if they can solve those. But

0:35:41.200 --> 0:35:43.520
<v Speaker 5>to me, the big issues are going to be, Okay,

0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:47.000
<v Speaker 5>when do the batteries reach a duration when people feel

0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:51.320
<v Speaker 5>like okay, that turns intermittent solar and wind into baseload,

0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:54.120
<v Speaker 5>And I think very simple. I'm a big believer in that,

0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:56.879
<v Speaker 5>and I'm not a big believer in building forty year

0:35:56.920 --> 0:35:59.960
<v Speaker 5>infrastructure for methane when in fact, we're going to solve

0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:02.920
<v Speaker 5>the problem in this decade, that to me seems like

0:36:03.080 --> 0:36:06.080
<v Speaker 5>building a problem that we can't get her out instead

0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:08.520
<v Speaker 5>of trying to come up with a real solution to

0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:09.279
<v Speaker 5>the problem.

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:12.000
<v Speaker 1>Tom Steyer, thank you so much for joining us.

0:36:12.400 --> 0:36:13.520
<v Speaker 5>Totally right well.

0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:18.719
<v Speaker 1>David Leonhardt is a senior writer at The New York

0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:22.360
<v Speaker 1>Times and author of ours was The Shining Future, The

0:36:22.560 --> 0:36:27.680
<v Speaker 1>Story of the American Dream. Welcome back to Fast Politics.

0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:29.520
<v Speaker 4>Thanks Molly, it's great to be back.

0:36:29.760 --> 0:36:32.560
<v Speaker 1>So happy to have you back. I actually was listening

0:36:32.600 --> 0:36:35.920
<v Speaker 1>to a rival podcast and you were on there, and

0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:37.200
<v Speaker 1>I was like, wait, I was.

0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:41.760
<v Speaker 4>Like, that's a fair I will always come on your podcast.

0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:43.680
<v Speaker 1>Very good because you know, one of the things about

0:36:43.760 --> 0:36:46.720
<v Speaker 1>having a very entitled childhood was that I always feel

0:36:46.920 --> 0:36:49.400
<v Speaker 1>entitled to get certain guests, and so I was like,

0:36:49.480 --> 0:36:52.160
<v Speaker 1>this is not fair. But anyways, so the idea that

0:36:52.200 --> 0:36:57.440
<v Speaker 1>there's something bipartisan in this incredibly contentious moment in American

0:36:57.480 --> 0:37:02.960
<v Speaker 1>politics is a and so will you talk about that?

0:37:03.560 --> 0:37:05.600
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it was the idea of one of my editors,

0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:09.800
<v Speaker 4>which is, look, we all talk about how polarized American

0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:13.400
<v Speaker 4>society is, and it is polarized, but we talk about

0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:17.279
<v Speaker 4>it often, sometimes we lapse into descriptions of it's so

0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:21.520
<v Speaker 4>polarized that Washington can't get anything done in gridlock. And

0:37:21.920 --> 0:37:25.080
<v Speaker 4>so let's keep that thought in our mind. Our country

0:37:25.160 --> 0:37:27.839
<v Speaker 4>is polarized. It doesn't always feel like Washington can get

0:37:27.880 --> 0:37:30.440
<v Speaker 4>things done. It doesn't feel like the parties can agree

0:37:30.440 --> 0:37:32.960
<v Speaker 4>on anything. And now let's think about this list. In

0:37:33.040 --> 0:37:37.360
<v Speaker 4>the last several years, the parties under Donald Trump agreed

0:37:37.840 --> 0:37:42.799
<v Speaker 4>on major COVID relief. Under President Biden, there has been

0:37:42.840 --> 0:37:50.240
<v Speaker 4>a bipartisan infrastructure bill that passed, a very big bill, roads, bridges, internet, infrastructure, water,

0:37:50.480 --> 0:37:53.319
<v Speaker 4>you name it. There is a bipartisan bill in the

0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:56.799
<v Speaker 4>semiconducductor industry that passed to try to build up our

0:37:56.960 --> 0:38:00.319
<v Speaker 4>domestic semiconductor industry to make sure we're not relying on

0:38:00.440 --> 0:38:03.240
<v Speaker 4>China or other countries that are unfriendly to the US.

0:38:03.520 --> 0:38:05.759
<v Speaker 4>There's a list of like eight or nine other bipartisan

0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:08.840
<v Speaker 4>bills that aren't as big on veterans' health and antiation,

0:38:09.040 --> 0:38:13.280
<v Speaker 4>hate crimes and even gun violence, and the Electoral count Act.

0:38:13.600 --> 0:38:17.840
<v Speaker 4>We've got Biden continuing many of Trump's trade policies and

0:38:17.920 --> 0:38:22.360
<v Speaker 4>expanding some of them. We just had another major bipartisan

0:38:22.440 --> 0:38:26.160
<v Speaker 4>legislation pass on TikTok and aide to Ukraine and other allies.

0:38:26.400 --> 0:38:29.680
<v Speaker 4>And we just had Democrats in the House save the

0:38:29.840 --> 0:38:33.440
<v Speaker 4>job of the House Republican speaker when far right Republicans

0:38:33.480 --> 0:38:36.279
<v Speaker 4>rebelled against him because of that Ukraine bill, something that

0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:39.719
<v Speaker 4>has basically, according to my colleagues who cover the Hill,

0:38:39.920 --> 0:38:43.000
<v Speaker 4>has never happened. You've never had members of one party

0:38:43.040 --> 0:38:45.080
<v Speaker 4>save another. And I'm not even giving you some of

0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:49.240
<v Speaker 4>the fun performative examples of bipartisanship, like JD Vance saying

0:38:49.280 --> 0:38:53.279
<v Speaker 4>positive things about Lena Khan, President Biden's trust busting head

0:38:53.280 --> 0:38:54.839
<v Speaker 4>of the FTC. And so we look at all this

0:38:54.960 --> 0:38:57.520
<v Speaker 4>and we just say, wait a second, how is this happening?

0:38:57.719 --> 0:39:01.160
<v Speaker 1>I want more on Lena Khan and JD Vance for

0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:04.040
<v Speaker 1>a minute, because this is something I'm particularly interested in,

0:39:04.239 --> 0:39:08.800
<v Speaker 1>and I think Lena Khan is pretty interesting, unusual person.

0:39:08.880 --> 0:39:10.680
<v Speaker 1>So can you just talk about that for a second.

0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:16.839
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, so, Lena Khan rocketed to wonky stardom. That's right.

0:39:16.880 --> 0:39:19.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm like Lena Kahan. She's a real celebrity. Yeah.

0:39:19.800 --> 0:39:22.720
<v Speaker 4>As a Yale law student, she wrote a law review

0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:26.120
<v Speaker 4>article saying that the country needs to take much more

0:39:26.160 --> 0:39:29.440
<v Speaker 4>seriously Amazon as a monopoly and do something about it.

0:39:29.520 --> 0:39:31.840
<v Speaker 4>Got her a bunch of attentions. She became kind of

0:39:31.880 --> 0:39:34.160
<v Speaker 4>an anti trust activist who got a bunch of attention

0:39:34.239 --> 0:39:37.799
<v Speaker 4>along with Tim Wu and Zephyr teach Out and some

0:39:37.920 --> 0:39:42.360
<v Speaker 4>other legal scholars. And Biden, despite her extremely young age,

0:39:42.480 --> 0:39:45.920
<v Speaker 4>named her to run the Federal Trade Commission. So she's

0:39:46.000 --> 0:39:49.120
<v Speaker 4>one of his, if not his number one, most important

0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:52.719
<v Speaker 4>anti trust regulator. She is, by any measure, one of

0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:56.480
<v Speaker 4>the most progressive members of the Biden administration. She really

0:39:56.520 --> 0:40:00.000
<v Speaker 4>wants to take a new approach to anti trust. And yeah,

0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:04.400
<v Speaker 4>when Jade Vance recently was talking about the Biden administration,

0:40:04.719 --> 0:40:06.800
<v Speaker 4>he said that he thought she was the only member

0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:08.799
<v Speaker 4>of it who was doing a pretty good job. Jd

0:40:08.960 --> 0:40:13.320
<v Speaker 4>Vance is, I think fairly can considered a far right senator.

0:40:13.440 --> 0:40:16.439
<v Speaker 4>So how is it that someone who is a far

0:40:16.600 --> 0:40:20.520
<v Speaker 4>right senator would be praising someone who big business views

0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:24.040
<v Speaker 4>as a far left regulator. And it's that fusion of

0:40:24.160 --> 0:40:27.480
<v Speaker 4>right and left that I think unlocks some of the

0:40:27.640 --> 0:40:30.880
<v Speaker 4>mystery of this bipartisan flur.

0:40:31.080 --> 0:40:34.280
<v Speaker 1>So that's quite interesting. Okay, So there is a place

0:40:34.520 --> 0:40:37.680
<v Speaker 1>where these two worlds meet.

0:40:37.880 --> 0:40:39.239
<v Speaker 4>There is a place where they mean. And look, I

0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:41.800
<v Speaker 4>don't want to exaggerate it. If someone's saying, but abortion,

0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:46.799
<v Speaker 4>transgender rights, but Donald Trump's hostility democracy. Yes, there are

0:40:46.920 --> 0:40:49.560
<v Speaker 4>huge partisan gaps on a lot of issues. Yes, Donald

0:40:49.600 --> 0:40:52.560
<v Speaker 4>Trump threatens democracy in some basic ways. All those things

0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:54.399
<v Speaker 4>are true. If we're trying to make sense of it,

0:40:54.440 --> 0:40:57.960
<v Speaker 4>How is it that there's been bipartisan cooperation on these issues.

0:40:58.040 --> 0:41:02.840
<v Speaker 4>I think there are two main explanations. One is foreign policy.

0:41:03.160 --> 0:41:08.239
<v Speaker 4>We really are in a competition now with China and

0:41:08.320 --> 0:41:13.000
<v Speaker 4>an emerging global alliance that President Biden I think accurately

0:41:13.040 --> 0:41:16.800
<v Speaker 4>calls an alliance of autocracies. They don't work together and everything,

0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:20.600
<v Speaker 4>but they increasingly work together. So that's China, it's Russia,

0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:24.360
<v Speaker 4>it's occasionally North Korea, and it's Iran as well as

0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:28.160
<v Speaker 4>the non state groups that are on backs like Hesba,

0:41:28.239 --> 0:41:32.239
<v Speaker 4>Lahamas and the Huthis. And you really do see cooperation

0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:38.000
<v Speaker 4>among all these countries and groups. They all are authoritarian groups.

0:41:38.160 --> 0:41:41.400
<v Speaker 4>And I think American policy makers of both the Democratic

0:41:41.440 --> 0:41:44.600
<v Speaker 4>and Republican Party, at least a significant number of them,

0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.680
<v Speaker 4>have become really worried about this, and particularly about China.

0:41:47.760 --> 0:41:50.000
<v Speaker 4>And in the same way that the Cold War in

0:41:50.040 --> 0:41:53.239
<v Speaker 4>the forties, fifties and sixties sparked a whole bunch of

0:41:53.280 --> 0:41:58.560
<v Speaker 4>bipartisan legislating, the Eisenhower Highway System, the post Sputnik emphasis

0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:01.560
<v Speaker 4>on science education. We see some of that today. So

0:42:01.640 --> 0:42:04.400
<v Speaker 4>that's the semiconductor bill, it's the TikTok bill, a bunch

0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:06.759
<v Speaker 4>of these things, I think our responses to China. It's

0:42:06.800 --> 0:42:09.560
<v Speaker 4>the trade policy. And then the second thing is the

0:42:09.640 --> 0:42:13.279
<v Speaker 4>failure of neoliberalism. And Molly, you and I talked about

0:42:13.280 --> 0:42:14.919
<v Speaker 4>this when I came on to talk about my book

0:42:14.960 --> 0:42:19.239
<v Speaker 4>about the American Dream, and you look at what neoliberalism is,

0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:22.400
<v Speaker 4>which it's these set of policies that reduce regulations and

0:42:22.440 --> 0:42:26.040
<v Speaker 4>shrink labor unions and increase trade and increase immigration and

0:42:26.120 --> 0:42:31.640
<v Speaker 4>basically shrink government and increase market forces. And they happened

0:42:31.680 --> 0:42:34.200
<v Speaker 4>in the seventies and eighties and nineties and early aughts.

0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:37.200
<v Speaker 4>And the promise was that this would deliver prosperity to

0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:40.080
<v Speaker 4>Americans and it would deliver freedom to the world. And

0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:45.040
<v Speaker 4>those promises just haven't been met. China isn't freer, working

0:42:45.080 --> 0:42:48.839
<v Speaker 4>class Americans are not doing particularly well, and so the

0:42:48.840 --> 0:42:52.600
<v Speaker 4>failures of neoliberalism have led to what I described as

0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:56.759
<v Speaker 4>a rise of neo populism. I deliberately picked that term.

0:42:56.840 --> 0:43:00.000
<v Speaker 4>I know some people are uncomfortable with the phrase populism.

0:43:00.120 --> 0:43:05.719
<v Speaker 4>But this neopopulism includes trade restrictions, it includes more investment

0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:10.640
<v Speaker 4>in things like infrastructure and businesses like semiconductors. It basically says, yes,

0:43:10.760 --> 0:43:13.560
<v Speaker 4>we are a capitalist economy, but if the government just

0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:17.000
<v Speaker 4>kind of lets everything go, it doesn't work out that well.

0:43:17.040 --> 0:43:20.160
<v Speaker 4>It hasn't worked out that well for many Americans, and

0:43:20.480 --> 0:43:24.440
<v Speaker 4>despite what the neoliberals told us, it has not remade

0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:27.000
<v Speaker 4>the world in a democratic image.

0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:29.960
<v Speaker 1>So interesting because as we're talking about this, I'm thinking,

0:43:30.400 --> 0:43:33.800
<v Speaker 1>like the left and the right are pretty aligned. Again

0:43:33.920 --> 0:43:37.880
<v Speaker 1>with their anti China sentiment, They're very aligned when it

0:43:37.920 --> 0:43:41.040
<v Speaker 1>comes to the capitalism needs. I mean, how they want

0:43:41.080 --> 0:43:44.280
<v Speaker 1>to do it is different, but you know varies by party,

0:43:44.320 --> 0:43:49.560
<v Speaker 1>but both parties believe that unfettered capitalism hasn't delivered results.

0:43:49.600 --> 0:43:51.279
<v Speaker 1>I mean that's what you're saying, right.

0:43:51.520 --> 0:43:54.000
<v Speaker 4>Yes, I would say I think the Democratic Party is

0:43:54.120 --> 0:43:56.680
<v Speaker 4>very comfortable with that, and I think the Republican Party

0:43:56.760 --> 0:44:00.920
<v Speaker 4>is torn. You do have in the Republican Party figures

0:44:01.160 --> 0:44:04.120
<v Speaker 4>who are comfortable with the idea that we need to

0:44:04.120 --> 0:44:07.200
<v Speaker 4>move on from neoliberalism. That helps explain how some of

0:44:07.280 --> 0:44:10.799
<v Speaker 4>these big pieces of legislation like infrastructure and semiconductor's got

0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:13.640
<v Speaker 4>a meaningful number of Republican votes. It explains the JD.

0:44:13.760 --> 0:44:16.160
<v Speaker 4>Anthley Nakom thing we were talking about. But there's also

0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:19.279
<v Speaker 4>still a really strong part of the Republican Party that

0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:22.160
<v Speaker 4>does believe basically in lasaf fair capitalism. I mean, the

0:44:22.200 --> 0:44:25.360
<v Speaker 4>Supreme Court majority is basically a pro lasafe fair majority.

0:44:25.440 --> 0:44:28.080
<v Speaker 4>Donald Trump doesn't seem to care that much about policy.

0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:31.640
<v Speaker 4>When he campaigns, he campaigns as a populist. When he governs,

0:44:31.680 --> 0:44:34.520
<v Speaker 4>he's a mix. His trade policies are populous, his tax

0:44:34.560 --> 0:44:37.719
<v Speaker 4>cut for rich people is not populist, right.

0:44:37.880 --> 0:44:40.839
<v Speaker 1>I mean, he mostly wants to just do whatever's good

0:44:40.880 --> 0:44:41.279
<v Speaker 1>for him.

0:44:41.719 --> 0:44:45.120
<v Speaker 4>Yes, he doesn't really care about policy details on most issues.

0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:50.520
<v Speaker 4>But his rejection Trump's rejection of laisaif fair economics, the

0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:53.840
<v Speaker 4>fact that he criticized trade, the fact that he stopped

0:44:53.840 --> 0:44:56.359
<v Speaker 4>talking about cutting Medicare and social Security the way Paul

0:44:56.440 --> 0:45:00.000
<v Speaker 4>Ryan was talking about it, did open up the republic

0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:04.799
<v Speaker 4>Can Party to have more people reject the laissez fair

0:45:04.840 --> 0:45:07.680
<v Speaker 4>economics of the eighties and nineties and we see more

0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:08.320
<v Speaker 4>of that now.

0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:12.560
<v Speaker 1>Such an interesting point as we look at this, one

0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:14.520
<v Speaker 1>of the things that I'm struck by is it seems

0:45:14.520 --> 0:45:21.680
<v Speaker 1>like we're tariffs are highly inflationary. Both parties, Biden and

0:45:21.840 --> 0:45:24.960
<v Speaker 1>Trump have decided that tariffs are the way to go

0:45:25.000 --> 0:45:26.160
<v Speaker 1>after China.

0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:28.399
<v Speaker 3>It makes me a little uncomfortable.

0:45:28.800 --> 0:45:32.120
<v Speaker 1>But tell us why they've decided it, and if you

0:45:32.120 --> 0:45:33.799
<v Speaker 1>think they're right to so.

0:45:33.840 --> 0:45:37.040
<v Speaker 4>Tariffs can be highly inflationary, and I think the kind

0:45:37.040 --> 0:45:40.680
<v Speaker 4>of tariffs Trump is talking about probably would be highly

0:45:40.680 --> 0:45:44.400
<v Speaker 4>inflationary because they would apply to everything in the economy.

0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:47.319
<v Speaker 4>But it's also important to remember that tariffs have an

0:45:47.400 --> 0:45:51.840
<v Speaker 4>incredibly successful track record of help to build up economies.

0:45:51.840 --> 0:45:54.520
<v Speaker 4>I mean, the United States became an economic powerhouse in

0:45:54.640 --> 0:45:59.040
<v Speaker 4>part through tariffs to protect our early industries. China has

0:45:59.080 --> 0:46:03.920
<v Speaker 4>become economic powerhouse in part through its own protectionism, the

0:46:03.960 --> 0:46:07.480
<v Speaker 4>fact that other countries can't go freely compete in China.

0:46:07.880 --> 0:46:11.640
<v Speaker 4>And there is a very long successful history of countries

0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:16.399
<v Speaker 4>saying we want to protect this domestic industry for one

0:46:16.400 --> 0:46:19.520
<v Speaker 4>of a number of reasons. Maybe it's national security. You

0:46:19.600 --> 0:46:22.880
<v Speaker 4>need to be making things that protect your national security.

0:46:22.920 --> 0:46:26.480
<v Speaker 4>You can't rely on your global competitors to make those

0:46:26.480 --> 0:46:28.600
<v Speaker 4>because if you go to war, you're going to lose.

0:46:28.840 --> 0:46:31.279
<v Speaker 4>You also want to make sure if you identify an

0:46:31.280 --> 0:46:34.680
<v Speaker 4>industry as being a growing industry important to the future,

0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:38.520
<v Speaker 4>that you're going to have that kind of domestic industry.

0:46:38.560 --> 0:46:42.680
<v Speaker 4>And so it's not clear to me that targeted tariffs,

0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:48.480
<v Speaker 4>say on electric vehicles or semiconductors, are economically harmful. They

0:46:48.560 --> 0:46:52.040
<v Speaker 4>might be, they might also be economically beneficial. And I

0:46:52.200 --> 0:46:55.239
<v Speaker 4>just think it's really important that we get beyond the

0:46:55.320 --> 0:46:57.960
<v Speaker 4>kind of instinct that many of us in kind of

0:46:57.960 --> 0:47:02.080
<v Speaker 4>elite circles have to, oh, my goodness, trade restrictions have

0:47:02.200 --> 0:47:06.600
<v Speaker 4>to be bad. Most Americans are very comfortable with trade restrictions.

0:47:06.640 --> 0:47:11.319
<v Speaker 4>They favor them the same way most Americans favorite immigration restrictions.

0:47:11.560 --> 0:47:13.759
<v Speaker 4>I know this is an overword used, but I think elites,

0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:17.080
<v Speaker 4>by which I mean campaign downers and policy experts and

0:47:17.200 --> 0:47:21.160
<v Speaker 4>journalists and party activists and others, I think they spent

0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:26.080
<v Speaker 4>decades telling Americans, Hey, this kind of open trade, open immigration,

0:47:26.280 --> 0:47:28.960
<v Speaker 4>neoliberal economy is going to be really great for you.

0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:32.759
<v Speaker 4>And many Americans have looked at the evidence and they've said, no,

0:47:32.880 --> 0:47:36.880
<v Speaker 4>it's not. And so the idea that we're actually looking

0:47:36.920 --> 0:47:40.080
<v Speaker 4>at something like tariffs, to me is a sign of

0:47:40.200 --> 0:47:44.720
<v Speaker 4>lower case de democratic health, in which our policy makers

0:47:44.760 --> 0:47:48.200
<v Speaker 4>are saying, Hey, this policy we pursued that people were

0:47:48.200 --> 0:47:51.000
<v Speaker 4>skeptical of didn't work out the way we promised, and

0:47:51.040 --> 0:47:53.799
<v Speaker 4>now they're hostile to it, and maybe we should not

0:47:54.120 --> 0:47:56.560
<v Speaker 4>keep doing the same old thing that hasn't been working.

0:47:56.719 --> 0:47:56.799
<v Speaker 5>Well.

0:47:56.840 --> 0:48:00.239
<v Speaker 1>They're saying that tarifs is really interesting. But I'm hoping

0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:02.879
<v Speaker 1>you could talk now, if we're going to go here

0:48:03.000 --> 0:48:06.800
<v Speaker 1>about immigration, because while there is sort of mixed public

0:48:06.920 --> 0:48:12.480
<v Speaker 1>sentiment on immigration, clearly one of the reasons why we

0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:15.799
<v Speaker 1>as a country are having the best COVID recovery is

0:48:15.800 --> 0:48:18.960
<v Speaker 1>because we have immigration. It's not the only reason, but

0:48:19.000 --> 0:48:22.640
<v Speaker 1>it certainly helped us along. And right now our immigration

0:48:22.840 --> 0:48:25.920
<v Speaker 1>system is in such disarray. I mean, can you just

0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:28.960
<v Speaker 1>speak to sort of where we are with that and

0:48:29.040 --> 0:48:30.080
<v Speaker 1>what that could look like.

0:48:30.560 --> 0:48:32.000
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean, when you say we've had the best

0:48:32.000 --> 0:48:35.879
<v Speaker 4>COVID response, I think it's important to say that's GDP right, right, Right?

0:48:36.000 --> 0:48:40.240
<v Speaker 1>Economic GDP compared to other affluent countries.

0:48:40.640 --> 0:48:43.319
<v Speaker 4>Right, you go ask most people and not just ask them,

0:48:43.360 --> 0:48:45.280
<v Speaker 4>but you look at some of the data on wages.

0:48:45.680 --> 0:48:48.759
<v Speaker 4>You know, the wage recovery and COVID's been fine, but

0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:51.560
<v Speaker 4>it hasn't been great because inflation has been so high.

0:48:51.680 --> 0:48:54.000
<v Speaker 4>So it's not like most Americans have gotten a big

0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:56.320
<v Speaker 4>raise over the last few years. I mean, they haven't,

0:48:56.440 --> 0:48:58.520
<v Speaker 4>and they hate inflation for good reason. It's like a

0:48:58.600 --> 0:49:01.440
<v Speaker 4>tax or a pay cut. Now, immigration isn't the reason

0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:03.360
<v Speaker 4>for that. But I think we should be clear that

0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:08.200
<v Speaker 4>when Americans say that the economy has still been disappointing

0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:10.480
<v Speaker 4>to them, whether that's over the last few years or

0:49:10.520 --> 0:49:13.480
<v Speaker 4>certainly over the last few decades, their right to feel

0:49:13.480 --> 0:49:16.240
<v Speaker 4>that way. I mean, the economic data is in line

0:49:16.239 --> 0:49:18.839
<v Speaker 4>with the idea that the American economy has not been

0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:20.080
<v Speaker 4>serving most people.

0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:20.400
<v Speaker 5>Well.

0:49:20.520 --> 0:49:23.000
<v Speaker 4>I think the left has made a really big mistake

0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:26.520
<v Speaker 4>on immigration, the modern left, and it's not a mistake

0:49:26.719 --> 0:49:29.920
<v Speaker 4>that the left historically made about immigration. A lot of

0:49:29.920 --> 0:49:32.520
<v Speaker 4>parts of the left basically try to pretend that it's

0:49:32.520 --> 0:49:35.160
<v Speaker 4>a free lunch, that it has no downsides, that if

0:49:35.160 --> 0:49:38.280
<v Speaker 4>we have very high levels of immigration it benefits everybody,

0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:40.600
<v Speaker 4>that it benefits the immigrants who are coming, which I

0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:44.320
<v Speaker 4>think it clearly does, and that it also benefits American workers,

0:49:44.560 --> 0:49:47.280
<v Speaker 4>whether it's in the United States or Europe. Or Japan,

0:49:47.480 --> 0:49:51.480
<v Speaker 4>or pretty much any country. Most people are deeply uncomfortable

0:49:51.480 --> 0:49:54.560
<v Speaker 4>with very high levels of immigration, and we have had

0:49:54.640 --> 0:49:57.680
<v Speaker 4>very high levels of immigration, and there are some economic

0:49:57.760 --> 0:50:00.720
<v Speaker 4>costs to that. It expands the labor for and provides

0:50:00.800 --> 0:50:04.360
<v Speaker 4>wage competition. Why do you think it is that doctors

0:50:04.400 --> 0:50:08.720
<v Speaker 4>work really hard to prevent immigrants from immediately coming here

0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:11.440
<v Speaker 4>and competing for jobs. As you probably know, Molly, if

0:50:11.480 --> 0:50:13.680
<v Speaker 4>you're a doctor in another country and you move here,

0:50:13.760 --> 0:50:16.920
<v Speaker 4>you can't just start practicing medicine. You have to have

0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:20.759
<v Speaker 4>your medical training in this country in most instances, which

0:50:20.800 --> 0:50:22.680
<v Speaker 4>means if you're forty or fifty years old, you just

0:50:22.719 --> 0:50:24.719
<v Speaker 4>can't really come here and be a doctor. You'd have

0:50:24.719 --> 0:50:28.120
<v Speaker 4>to spend years getting training to be certified. That's because

0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:31.680
<v Speaker 4>doctors have political power, and they understand when you let

0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:33.880
<v Speaker 4>in a whole bunch more people to compete with you

0:50:33.920 --> 0:50:37.240
<v Speaker 4>in the labor market, it tends to hold your wages down, right.

0:50:37.280 --> 0:50:40.320
<v Speaker 4>And the idea that the more elite parts of the

0:50:40.400 --> 0:50:43.160
<v Speaker 4>left in our country have told workers, no, no, no,

0:50:43.280 --> 0:50:46.360
<v Speaker 4>silly you, How could you ever think there are downsides

0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:51.040
<v Speaker 4>of immigration. Workers have rebelled, And that's why immigration is

0:50:51.120 --> 0:50:53.839
<v Speaker 4>such a vulnerability for Joe Biden. I think it's really

0:50:53.920 --> 0:50:56.840
<v Speaker 4>important to say this isn't the history of the progressive

0:50:56.920 --> 0:51:02.000
<v Speaker 4>left Historically, whether it's civil rights leader or labor union leaders,

0:51:02.160 --> 0:51:06.279
<v Speaker 4>or Barack Obama or you name it, Democrats were very

0:51:06.320 --> 0:51:09.480
<v Speaker 4>comfortable with the idea of we need to protect the

0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:13.719
<v Speaker 4>rights of immigrants, and we honor this country's history as

0:51:13.760 --> 0:51:16.840
<v Speaker 4>a beacon for immigrants. But that doesn't mean that we're

0:51:16.880 --> 0:51:20.880
<v Speaker 4>constantly in favor of higher and higher immigration. It doesn't

0:51:20.920 --> 0:51:25.000
<v Speaker 4>mean that we reduce border security. We are a country,

0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:28.160
<v Speaker 4>as Barbara Jordan, the congresswoman and civil rights icon say,

0:51:28.400 --> 0:51:31.080
<v Speaker 4>we are a country of laws, and if you don't

0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:34.800
<v Speaker 4>have a border that keeps people out, you don't really

0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:37.400
<v Speaker 4>have the most important kind of law there is. And

0:51:37.440 --> 0:51:40.560
<v Speaker 4>I just think the left has lost that, And particularly

0:51:40.560 --> 0:51:44.000
<v Speaker 4>when you consider how much of a threat Donald Trump

0:51:44.080 --> 0:51:48.560
<v Speaker 4>is to so many democratic values. I'm genuinely confused about

0:51:48.600 --> 0:51:52.720
<v Speaker 4>why the Biden administration has been so slow to shore

0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:57.000
<v Speaker 4>up what is a massive vulnerability it has on this issue.

0:51:57.160 --> 0:52:03.239
<v Speaker 3>But didn't the Biden administration how negotiate like the absolutely

0:52:03.320 --> 0:52:08.680
<v Speaker 3>most funitive immigration bill that has been introduced since nineteen

0:52:08.760 --> 0:52:09.279
<v Speaker 3>ninety one.

0:52:09.760 --> 0:52:12.719
<v Speaker 4>It did, and Trump then killed it right, But.

0:52:12.800 --> 0:52:15.120
<v Speaker 3>I mean that's not Biden's fault, is it.

0:52:15.400 --> 0:52:18.200
<v Speaker 4>No, it's definitely not. It was incredibly cynical of Trump

0:52:18.239 --> 0:52:21.000
<v Speaker 4>to kill that bill and for congressional Republicans to go

0:52:21.080 --> 0:52:21.759
<v Speaker 4>along with it.

0:52:22.280 --> 0:52:24.600
<v Speaker 1>And I mean that was a bill. I wouldn't have

0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:27.840
<v Speaker 1>liked that bill as an elite liberal. I mean, but

0:52:27.960 --> 0:52:31.120
<v Speaker 1>it was a bill that Biden was all in on.

0:52:31.320 --> 0:52:35.840
<v Speaker 1>So and they bullied Chris Murphy into spending all Christmas

0:52:35.920 --> 0:52:36.839
<v Speaker 1>negotiating it.

0:52:36.920 --> 0:52:38.520
<v Speaker 4>I mean with James.

0:52:38.280 --> 0:52:42.239
<v Speaker 1>Langford who asked him about his faith journey. So they

0:52:42.520 --> 0:52:45.400
<v Speaker 1>really made as much of a good faith effort to

0:52:45.480 --> 0:52:48.680
<v Speaker 1>do an immigration bill as anyone has ever seen. I mean,

0:52:48.760 --> 0:52:50.400
<v Speaker 1>the fact that it did work.

0:52:50.520 --> 0:52:53.439
<v Speaker 4>Yes, it is absolutely true. They tried really hard. They've

0:52:53.480 --> 0:52:56.200
<v Speaker 4>tried really hard over the last six months to fix

0:52:56.280 --> 0:52:58.800
<v Speaker 4>this problem. So maybe I should have said, I'm confused

0:52:58.840 --> 0:53:01.680
<v Speaker 4>why I took them this long. But they also helped

0:53:01.719 --> 0:53:04.840
<v Speaker 4>create this problem. I mean, Joe Biden ran for office

0:53:05.000 --> 0:53:08.720
<v Speaker 4>very clearly saying we are going to welcome more people.

0:53:08.840 --> 0:53:10.840
<v Speaker 4>Dexter Filkins did a very good piece for The New

0:53:10.920 --> 0:53:14.560
<v Speaker 4>Yorker documenting this. People heard that message. He took office

0:53:14.600 --> 0:53:18.480
<v Speaker 4>and immediately loosened immigration policy in a bunch of ways.

0:53:18.760 --> 0:53:21.480
<v Speaker 4>Some of them were actual ways that changed the law,

0:53:21.719 --> 0:53:24.759
<v Speaker 4>like expanding parole, which is supposed to be this gets

0:53:24.800 --> 0:53:26.840
<v Speaker 4>really wonky, but it is supposed to be used on

0:53:26.920 --> 0:53:30.320
<v Speaker 4>individual bases, and they basically expanded it to admit hundreds

0:53:30.360 --> 0:53:32.640
<v Speaker 4>of thousands of more people. And they just sent a

0:53:32.680 --> 0:53:37.200
<v Speaker 4>message that both would be migrants and the Mexican cartels

0:53:37.200 --> 0:53:40.080
<v Speaker 4>that run the transportation networks very much heard, which is

0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:43.240
<v Speaker 4>it's going to be easier to get into this country

0:53:43.239 --> 0:53:46.919
<v Speaker 4>than it was, and huge numbers of people came again.

0:53:47.000 --> 0:53:49.920
<v Speaker 4>I think for them it's a very rational decision. For

0:53:50.000 --> 0:53:53.239
<v Speaker 4>immigrants who move here, they do very well. And so

0:53:53.640 --> 0:53:58.360
<v Speaker 4>the Biden administration really does deserve significant responsibility for this

0:53:58.480 --> 0:54:01.640
<v Speaker 4>huge surge in migration, and they spent a couple of

0:54:01.680 --> 0:54:04.960
<v Speaker 4>years really not doing much to change that, and then yes,

0:54:05.080 --> 0:54:07.160
<v Speaker 4>in twenty twenty three, they work very hard to try

0:54:07.200 --> 0:54:09.960
<v Speaker 4>to solve this problem and Republicans cynically stopped it. But

0:54:10.239 --> 0:54:12.440
<v Speaker 4>to me, that doesn't give them kind of a carte

0:54:12.440 --> 0:54:14.160
<v Speaker 4>blanche on the issue.

0:54:14.239 --> 0:54:16.840
<v Speaker 1>I have interviewed a lot of people for this podcast,

0:54:16.840 --> 0:54:21.000
<v Speaker 1>including a doctor at Planned Parenthood in Arizona who told

0:54:21.040 --> 0:54:23.040
<v Speaker 1>me the story of a woman who had walked here

0:54:23.440 --> 0:54:26.880
<v Speaker 1>from South America and been gang raved multiple times and

0:54:26.960 --> 0:54:29.640
<v Speaker 1>was able to get an abortion before the abortion ban came.

0:54:30.040 --> 0:54:32.520
<v Speaker 1>So I would suggest that a lot of these people

0:54:32.840 --> 0:54:36.399
<v Speaker 1>are not coming to do better, but just to do Look,

0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:39.920
<v Speaker 1>there are certainly people who come to this country and

0:54:40.440 --> 0:54:44.120
<v Speaker 1>have better experiences and make more money and do better.

0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:46.120
<v Speaker 1>But a lot of these people come to this country

0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:49.560
<v Speaker 1>are just desperate and are running for their lives. So

0:54:50.040 --> 0:54:52.800
<v Speaker 1>in my mind, you know, I think it is important

0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:56.120
<v Speaker 1>that this is not going on foot across the border.

0:54:56.280 --> 0:54:59.239
<v Speaker 1>Is not an experience that I would ever want to

0:54:59.320 --> 0:55:01.600
<v Speaker 1>have to try to do. So I do think there's

0:55:01.640 --> 0:55:04.680
<v Speaker 1>a fair amount of these people who are really just

0:55:04.880 --> 0:55:05.799
<v Speaker 1>out of options.

0:55:06.040 --> 0:55:07.640
<v Speaker 4>There are a huge number of people who are out

0:55:07.640 --> 0:55:11.480
<v Speaker 4>of options, and the United States can't admit everyone who's

0:55:11.480 --> 0:55:13.840
<v Speaker 4>out of options. Around the world, we can't admit close

0:55:13.880 --> 0:55:16.879
<v Speaker 4>to everyone. We should remain a beacon for people who

0:55:16.880 --> 0:55:20.440
<v Speaker 4>are true political refugees. I think the thing to think

0:55:20.480 --> 0:55:22.920
<v Speaker 4>about a little bit is by any measure of global

0:55:22.960 --> 0:55:25.960
<v Speaker 4>poverty has plummeted over the last couple decades, and by

0:55:25.960 --> 0:55:29.640
<v Speaker 4>any measure, the number of people who are killed in

0:55:29.760 --> 0:55:33.359
<v Speaker 4>violent conflicts has declined. Over the last couple decades. So

0:55:33.760 --> 0:55:35.960
<v Speaker 4>I don't think it can simply be the case that

0:55:36.040 --> 0:55:38.880
<v Speaker 4>immigration of this country is surging because situation around the

0:55:38.920 --> 0:55:42.680
<v Speaker 4>world has gotten worse by any objective measure. In poor countries,

0:55:42.840 --> 0:55:46.160
<v Speaker 4>the situation has gotten better over the last few decades.

0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:48.720
<v Speaker 4>And I think what many Americans look at these numbers

0:55:48.800 --> 0:55:52.000
<v Speaker 4>and they say, how much of it is our responsibility

0:55:52.040 --> 0:55:54.920
<v Speaker 4>to admit people around the world. And different people can

0:55:55.040 --> 0:55:58.800
<v Speaker 4>come to different reasonable conclusions about that. But the Biden

0:55:58.800 --> 0:56:02.279
<v Speaker 4>administration has been in a place that most Americans are

0:56:02.320 --> 0:56:05.720
<v Speaker 4>not comfortable with, and it's part of why his reelection

0:56:05.920 --> 0:56:07.560
<v Speaker 4>campaign is so difficult.

0:56:07.800 --> 0:56:11.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm just glad that my great grandparents didn't have to

0:56:11.760 --> 0:56:15.000
<v Speaker 1>worry about that. So anyway, David, thank you so much

0:56:15.000 --> 0:56:15.839
<v Speaker 1>for joining us.

0:56:16.160 --> 0:56:22.080
<v Speaker 4>Thank you, Molly, No moment full.

0:56:23.360 --> 0:56:25.360
<v Speaker 1>Jesse Cannon my junk fest.

0:56:25.400 --> 0:56:27.279
<v Speaker 4>You know, we used to ask what came first, the

0:56:27.360 --> 0:56:28.080
<v Speaker 4>checker or the egg.

0:56:28.400 --> 0:56:30.840
<v Speaker 5>Now everybody seems to be asking what came first?

0:56:31.120 --> 0:56:33.960
<v Speaker 2>Trump having bad lawyers or him making those lawyers.

0:56:34.000 --> 0:56:34.960
<v Speaker 5>Bet what are you seeing?

0:56:35.320 --> 0:56:38.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you will be listening to this podcast on Wednesday.

0:56:38.800 --> 0:56:42.479
<v Speaker 1>Tuesday was the last day of closing arguments in the

0:56:42.800 --> 0:56:47.480
<v Speaker 1>Trump New York criminal trial, which you may remember, Todd

0:56:47.520 --> 0:56:52.960
<v Speaker 1>Blanche went sort of off the script and said some

0:56:53.040 --> 0:56:58.160
<v Speaker 1>stuff that he maybe hoped would cause a mistrial. Judge Murshan,

0:56:58.600 --> 0:57:03.280
<v Speaker 1>who is a very measured guy, told that. He said

0:57:03.680 --> 0:57:07.320
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't think it's an accident when Blanche told the

0:57:07.400 --> 0:57:10.560
<v Speaker 1>jury that the jury should think twice before sending a

0:57:10.560 --> 0:57:12.840
<v Speaker 1>man to prison, which Trump would not go to prison

0:57:12.880 --> 0:57:15.319
<v Speaker 1>for this, or if he did, it would take many,

0:57:15.360 --> 0:57:19.480
<v Speaker 1>many appeals. Merchand to Blanche, your statement was outrageous and

0:57:19.560 --> 0:57:23.000
<v Speaker 1>highly inappropriate. Merchant's tone was tempered, but you could tell

0:57:23.000 --> 0:57:26.760
<v Speaker 1>how angry he was with Todd Blanche. Basically, Trump has

0:57:26.880 --> 0:57:31.800
<v Speaker 1>terrible lawyers who are being terrible and honestly, I mean,

0:57:32.040 --> 0:57:35.960
<v Speaker 1>couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. That's it for

0:57:36.080 --> 0:57:39.880
<v Speaker 1>this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday

0:57:39.880 --> 0:57:42.800
<v Speaker 1>and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes

0:57:42.840 --> 0:57:46.160
<v Speaker 1>sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard,

0:57:46.520 --> 0:57:49.480
<v Speaker 1>please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

0:57:49.840 --> 0:57:51.560
<v Speaker 1>And again, thanks for listening.