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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Judge Cannon has rejected Jack Smith's

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Speaker 1: request for a gag order against Donald Trump in the

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Speaker 1: classified documents case. We have such a great show for you.

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Speaker 1: Former presidential candidate Tom Steyer stops by to talk about

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Speaker 1: his new book, Cheaper, Faster, Better, how We'll win the

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Speaker 1: climate wars. Then we'll talk to the New York Times

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Speaker 1: is David Leonhard about neo populism. But first we have

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Speaker 1: MSNBC columnist and contributor and friend of mine Charlie Sykes.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics. Charlie Sykes.

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Speaker 2: Well, things are going so well, aren't they.

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Speaker 1: We were just before this. I was like, tell me, honestly,

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Speaker 1: when does American democracy? And okay, but this is like

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Speaker 1: democratic hand ringing. I want to point out something that

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Speaker 1: I was writing a piece about polls, and so this

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Speaker 1: fact came back into the vernacular and I want to

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Speaker 1: talk to you about it. Donald Trump actually underperformed all

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Speaker 1: of these primary contests, despite the fact that he was

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Speaker 1: running again to no one.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's right, and even though Nicky Haley was Nicky Haley,

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Speaker 2: as we should have known she was going to be.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that she's going to change the dynamic

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Speaker 2: of what you'sa on the primary is that there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of Republicans that just are not at this

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Speaker 2: point willing to vote for Donald Trump. Now, you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, the big question is do they all come home?

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Speaker 2: Do they consolidate? Is there this process of normalization where

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Speaker 2: Nicky says, well, of course I'll vote for Donald Trump,

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Speaker 2: you know, And then you get the various CEOs who

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Speaker 2: decide that tax policy involving passed through interest is way

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Speaker 2: more important than any of these other issues, like to

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Speaker 2: like democracy or whether or not people have just made

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Speaker 2: the decision that Donald Trump is just too deplorable. This

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Speaker 2: is the mind blowing thing. I don't know, if you

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Speaker 2: read my piece in The Atlantic where I talked about airsickness,

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Speaker 2: where it's disorienting, it's vertigenous to watch Donald Trump, to

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Speaker 2: listen to Donald Trump, to see how he behaves, who

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Speaker 2: this man is, and that not just millions of voters,

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Speaker 2: because I mean, you know, I've decided that it's okay,

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Speaker 2: but you know, people who know better in the Republican Party.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to find out whether or not we

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Speaker 2: have the replay of twenty sixteen where they all hold

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Speaker 2: their nose and figure that, you know, tribalism is more

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Speaker 2: important than democracy, or whether or not we're still going

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Speaker 2: to have ten twenty percent of Republicans saying yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: screw that, I'm not when we're not getting on the

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Speaker 2: Trump train. Who knows?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And nobody knows, and anyone who tells you they

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Speaker 1: know doesn't know. And in fact, even you know, Nate

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Speaker 1: Cohen from the New York Times, who's a polster, wrote

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Speaker 1: a really good piece about just how difficult it is

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Speaker 1: to measure a shifting electorate. Right, the electorate who voted

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen will make Trump president again. That is

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Speaker 1: a very shaky electorate that hadn't voted in any other

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Speaker 1: election ever, And so they may not come out in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four and.

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Speaker 2: We won't know for money and moms, And this week

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Speaker 2: is going to be rather significant, right, I mean, this

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Speaker 2: is going to be a pivotal week. We're going to

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Speaker 2: get the you know, as you and I are speaking,

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Speaker 2: they're they're concluding the you know, the final arguments in

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Speaker 2: the Trump hush money trial, and we're probably going to

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Speaker 2: get a verdict one way or another. It's either going

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Speaker 2: to be guilty, not guilty, or a hung jury. I

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Speaker 2: think it's very unlikely it's going to be not guilty

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Speaker 2: or split charges, and of course you know within that

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Speaker 2: subset you have split charges. The big question of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four, as it has been feels like for the

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Speaker 2: last eight years, is does anything matter? Will anything make

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Speaker 2: a difference. I'm in the camp that says that until

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Speaker 2: proven otherwise, a felony conviction is not a plus. That

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean it's going to be decisive, but it is

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Speaker 2: not a plus. It makes it even more cringe worthy

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Speaker 2: for all the Republicans to gather here in my hometown

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Speaker 2: in Milwaukee and nominate a convicted felon. That seems problematic

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Speaker 2: to me. But then I'm old school.

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Speaker 1: I agree that a criminal conviction does not help Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: and I think that again, I feel like, what happens

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Speaker 1: with punditry, and you tell me if I'm wrong, is

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Speaker 1: there's so much thinking that people start to like game

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Speaker 1: out different insane scenarios and all of a sudden, you're like,

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Speaker 1: Trump didn't win the primaries because he got indicted. He

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Speaker 1: won the primaries because nobody ran as anything else but

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Speaker 1: mimeographs of him.

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Speaker 2: You're right, there's so many aspects to all of this.

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Speaker 2: It is still remarkable. It is still amazing that Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump is is going to be the Republican nominee. But

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Speaker 2: you're right about the pundit brain. I've actually been trying

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Speaker 2: to step away from that because you know, you have

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Speaker 2: your face pressed up against the screen, you know, pressed

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Speaker 2: up against that, you know, fire hose of speculation, and

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Speaker 2: the answer is, we don't know. So you know, what

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to do is step back and say, you know,

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Speaker 2: what's actually happening to the country, and what are the stakes?

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Speaker 2: And I wish the media would focus less on the

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Speaker 2: horse race than the stakes. But the problem is is

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Speaker 2: that there are so many rabbit holes, and they're so

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Speaker 2: tempting to go down, and with the best of intentions,

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Speaker 2: every once in a while, I'll realize, how did I

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Speaker 2: get here at the the rabbit hole? Why have I

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Speaker 2: spent now hours speculating about something that a week from

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Speaker 2: now we'll know the answer one way or another. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we will know whether Trump is convicted or not. So

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Speaker 2: we could spend hours talking about like what was the

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Speaker 2: effect of Costello's cross examination or how did Michael Cohen do? Okay,

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Speaker 2: you know we're going to find out pretty soon, you know,

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Speaker 2: so maybe take a deep breath. Everybody needs, all of

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Speaker 2: America needs to take a deep breath and decide where

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Speaker 2: do we want to go as a country? Are you

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Speaker 2: really going to do this again? And frankly, I'm not

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Speaker 2: interested in having a debate about tax policy right now.

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Speaker 2: It's like this, this is the reality facing us.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point, and I do

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Speaker 1: think that one of the things that I'm struck by

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Speaker 1: is if you don't follow politics at all, you like

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, but if you read newspapers you don't so like.

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Speaker 1: Clearly there is an infration vacuum here that is I

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Speaker 1: think created by technology companies, or at least exacerbated by

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Speaker 1: technology companies, that is interesting, destructive, and quite scary.

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Speaker 3: Can we talk about that.

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Speaker 2: We can blame the media for this, but I also

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Speaker 2: think that there's something that's happened in American culture that

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Speaker 2: is perhaps underappreciative, or maybe maybe we're faced with it

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Speaker 2: every single day that you know, there had been an

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Speaker 2: assumption that we understood what the American character was what

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Speaker 2: the American people wanted, how deep and broad our sense

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Speaker 2: of a consensus about liberal constitutional democracy was. And maybe

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Speaker 2: that's all wrong, you know. And as I said, pulling

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Speaker 2: the lens back, I was reading something this morning. I

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Speaker 2: think it was an old quote from Bill Clinton, of

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Speaker 2: all people, who said, basically, in American politics, people want

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Speaker 2: the strong person, and they don't want to vote for

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Speaker 2: the weak person. And right now, Donald Trump, again, keep

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Speaker 2: in mind, you and I we follow this. We know

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Speaker 2: what Donald Trump tweeted, I mean, bleeded out on one more.

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Speaker 2: We know what Donald Trump says. But let's pull back

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Speaker 2: to people who are not that that engage. They see

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump right now as a stronger and more dynamic figure,

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Speaker 2: and they see Joe Biden as sort of weak and

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Speaker 2: struggling to become more relevant, which is again kind of

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Speaker 2: the mind blowing thing. The man's the president of the

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Speaker 2: United States, and yet he is overshadowed by this clown

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Speaker 2: figure who is facing felony charges in New York. And

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Speaker 2: I think this is part of the problem that Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden has. And I think the cliche, of course, is

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Speaker 2: to focus on Biden's age. It's a fill in for

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Speaker 2: this larger sense of like, what is he doing? What

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Speaker 2: does he stand for? Is he up for it? Is

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Speaker 2: he the strong leader who is going to solve all

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Speaker 2: of these problems that we face here. And I think

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Speaker 2: that that's something that I get the sense the White

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Speaker 2: House understands that. I think you're seeing these attempts, but

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Speaker 2: it is difficult. I think you know that Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: is painting with these broad, crude, you know colors, you know,

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Speaker 2: garish colors. You know that I am the leader, I

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Speaker 2: am the change agent. And you get a much more mixed,

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Speaker 2: more nuanced message from Joe Biden, which in our culture

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Speaker 2: has a much harder time breaking through.

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Speaker 4: It's so depressing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, whatever, we shouldn't despair because we're just months

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Speaker 1: and months away. But the thing about having the world's

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Speaker 1: longest election is that Trump has been running for president

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Speaker 1: now since a week after the midterms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like we have been in this campaign

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Speaker 2: now for eight years. I mean, it feels as if

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Speaker 2: and this is this is part of the disorientation, you

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Speaker 2: know how I mean, I remember back in twenty fifteen

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Speaker 2: and twenty sixteen thinking, you know, how disastrous it would

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Speaker 2: be if Donald Trump was elected and yet we had

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Speaker 2: no idea. We had no idea the effect that he

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Speaker 2: would have. I think you could find things that we

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Speaker 2: wrote that said we thought we did. But the degree

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Speaker 2: in which he has changed the media environment, the cultural environment,

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Speaker 2: the moral environment, what is considered ecceptible, what is considered disqualifying.

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Speaker 1: And the Republican Party.

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Speaker 2: Look, there's no question about it. There were people who

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Speaker 2: thought the Republican Party would change Donald Trump.

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Speaker 4: It did not.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump changed the Republican Party. And we see that

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Speaker 2: on a daily basis.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean I was at this dinner in DC and

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Speaker 1: a person who's a you know, very smart writer, editor genius,

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Speaker 1: was saying the thing that just made me want to die.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about the day to day corruption that

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Speaker 1: Trump normalized. You know, we were talking about Scott Pruitt.

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Speaker 1: Remember Scott Prewit, Yes.

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Speaker 4: I do.

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Speaker 2: I actually see nobody else, Yeah, with.

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Speaker 1: The tactical pants who went to Cafe Milano every night.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there were so many, you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: this low level corruption in government, which already Americans had

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Speaker 1: anxiety about, got so exacerbated. It was just I don't know,

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Speaker 1: just thinking about it makes me shudder.

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Speaker 2: But here here's the bad News Molley, and we're going

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Speaker 2: to look back nostalgically upon that era because a Trump

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Speaker 2: two point zero presidency is not going to be peopled

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Speaker 2: by even quasi normies. You look back on the Trump cabinet.

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Speaker 2: Actually I did this the other day. Go back to

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Speaker 2: look at the Trump cabinet in early twenty seventeen. Now,

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Speaker 2: we were all hair on fire about what it represented,

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Speaker 2: but that was a you know, by current standards, and this,

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Speaker 2: by the way, shows how the window has moved. You

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Speaker 2: look back and go, that was a pretty normal cabinet.

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Speaker 2: You know, by and large, those were actual grown ups

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Speaker 2: who had who had accomplished and said. But one of

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Speaker 2: the things that Donald Trump has learned, he's the lesson

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Speaker 2: he's learned is I don't want those grown up normies

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Speaker 2: around me. I don't want anyone who's going to say,

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Speaker 2: I don't want a vice president like Mike Pence, who

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Speaker 2: may be you know, slavishly loyal, but but has you know,

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Speaker 2: still a little bit of integrity and principle left. I

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Speaker 2: have to make sure that all of that is gone.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, we have.

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Speaker 2: The low level sort of discrudity and the grifters, like

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Speaker 2: like the Scott Prewitz of the world. What's coming, I

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Speaker 2: think is going to be much much worse.

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Speaker 1: But what is interesting when you look at these dat

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Speaker 1: ballot right is Republicans have a very good Senate map

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Speaker 1: for them, but they don't have great candidates.

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Speaker 2: No, they have done this again and again over the years,

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Speaker 2: nominated bizarre, unelectable candidates. And this goes back as long

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Speaker 2: as I can remember him in the Sharon engeles and

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Speaker 2: I mean, who can forget Christine O'Donnell i am not

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Speaker 2: a witch or Todd Aiken talking about legitimate rate in

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Speaker 2: the before times, those comments, you know, that kind of

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Speaker 2: behavior was automatically disqualifying, And of course Donald Trump says

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Speaker 2: or does something almost on a daily basis that would

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Speaker 2: have been disqualifying for any other generation of candidates. So

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Speaker 2: they're testing the proposition about whether or not those standards

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Speaker 2: exist now down ballot as well, whether or not they're

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Speaker 2: going to blow these races as they have in the past,

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Speaker 2: or whether or not the moral window has shifted so

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Speaker 2: radically that people will go, yeah, we just don't care

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Speaker 2: about that crazy shit.

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Speaker 1: It does seem to me, though, while the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: has gone along with Trump, these Senate candidates. The thing

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Speaker 1: that unites all of them is that they are most

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Speaker 1: of them are self funders, right, because that money needs

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Speaker 1: to go to Donald Trump's criminal cases, his criminal lawyers,

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Speaker 1: so that money is not for candidates. But then also

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Speaker 1: so they're largely self funders, and then they also tend

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Speaker 1: to be carpetbaggers. So you got Dave McCormick flying from

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Speaker 1: Greenwich to Pennsylvania. Right, You've got Eric Hovdy, he's got

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Speaker 1: a weird mustache, he owns banks in California. You have

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Speaker 1: flying to Wisconsin. I mean, that's clearly a thing they're doing, right.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 2: You know, McCormick is probably the closest to the normy

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Speaker 2: candidate that Republicans would like. I just don't know whether

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Speaker 2: or not carpetbagging carries the way that perhaps once would have.

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Speaker 2: We have a long tradition of people, you know, moving around.

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Speaker 2: You know, Eric Hovedy in Wisconsin is an interesting case

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Speaker 2: because he has been almost completely absent from Wisconsin politics

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Speaker 2: since his last Senate bid. I know the guy, I've

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Speaker 2: had lunch with him, and let's just say that he

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Speaker 2: does not lack for healthy self regard guard I mean,

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Speaker 2: really healthy self regard. But having said that, I would

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Speaker 2: love an explanation for why he's wearing the seventies porn stash.

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Speaker 2: I just I don't quite get that he's one of

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Speaker 2: those candidates that I don't think is going to wear well,

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Speaker 2: even though he's been polling reasonably well. But those are

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Speaker 2: the candidates that I think, at least on paper, they're

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Speaker 2: not the Carrie Lake type candidate. And Carrie Lake is

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Speaker 2: an interesting person because Arizona is very much a swing

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Speaker 2: state that ought to have been top of the target.

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Speaker 2: And here once again you see the Republicans who apparently

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Speaker 2: are at least conceding that one seat. Whether that's going

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Speaker 2: to make a difference, but I think that we need

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Speaker 2: to go into this election with the assumption that there

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Speaker 2: is going to be a Republican Senate just because of

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Speaker 2: the map what's going on, you know, in West Virginia,

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Speaker 2: because that's almost an automatic pickup for the Republicans. And

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Speaker 2: so this is what also makes the prospect of a

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Speaker 2: Trump presidency so dangerous, because I don't know whether Republicans

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Speaker 2: are still telling themselves quietly, Okay, this is bad, but

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Speaker 2: we have to go along with it, because at least

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Speaker 2: he's not Joe Biden, and we will be able to

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Speaker 2: control him. How bad could it be? Well, when's the

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Speaker 2: last time that we actually saw the Republicans effectively act

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Speaker 2: as a check on Donald Trump? And does anyone really

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Speaker 2: believe that a Republican Senate would turn down the more

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Speaker 2: egregious appointees. I just I'm again, the default setting has

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Speaker 2: to be the Republican Party will always cave to Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump when it comes to things like personnel and judges.

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Speaker 1: Right, And I think that's a really good point. There's

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Speaker 1: not going to be any checks and balances. That's what

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Speaker 1: it is. And I think there weren't that many checks

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Speaker 1: and balances the last time.

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Speaker 2: Mitch McConnell would every once in a while toy with

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Speaker 2: it and play with it, but then would cave in.

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Speaker 2: But speaking of checks and balances, I just can we

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Speaker 2: focus on one positive things? One positive thing? Over the

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Speaker 2: weekend Trump's appearance at the Libertarian convention.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, And that didn't get that much news. And

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Speaker 1: it was amazing.

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Speaker 2: That's why I want to mention that it was amazing. Now,

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Speaker 2: now the Libertarian Party as opposed to libertarianism, I I'm

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Speaker 2: open to libertarianism. Libertarian party has been kind of taken

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Speaker 2: over by crackpots a long time ago. I mean, this

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Speaker 2: is an eccentric group. And so one of the questions

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Speaker 2: was have they become so crackpotty that they would be

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Speaker 2: open to an RFK that they would actually think that

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump is a libertarian? And I don't know what

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Speaker 2: they were thinking. I mean, this is a really interesting question.

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Speaker 2: What were the Trump folks thinking. What did they think

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Speaker 2: was going to happen when he showed up at this

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Speaker 2: libertarian convention? Because they bowed the shit out of him.

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Speaker 2: I mean they chump. I mean, it was it was

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Speaker 2: a make Rick Wilson says, somebody's going to lose their

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Speaker 2: job over this, and you think so, I mean, he's

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Speaker 2: got to come off the stage and going did anybody

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Speaker 2: know it was going to be this bad? Because people,

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Speaker 2: everyone knew it was going to be this bad, and

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Speaker 2: there it was, and they're like hippocrid, hippocrede, hippie grip.

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Speaker 2: So it was one of those rare, rare moments where

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump has stepped out of the bubble of his

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Speaker 2: own rallies. He does travel in a bubble except when

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Speaker 2: he has to course no face his felony charges. It

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Speaker 2: was interesting to watch how he handled and of course

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Speaker 2: he snapped them and said, well, you know what you

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Speaker 2: want your three percent.

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Speaker 1: Of the vote.

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Speaker 2: You know you want to lose that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: You know how to win friends and influence people. So

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Speaker 2: it was a reminder how Trump kind of melts down

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Speaker 2: when he's confronted with people who are calling out his bullshit.

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Speaker 2: And basically, you had an entire convention basically saying Trump bullshit.

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Speaker 2: You've had your shot. You're not a libertarian, you don't

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Speaker 2: represent liberty. And I think in the end he got

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Speaker 2: out of eight hundred votes, I think he got six

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Speaker 2: right ends, which is Chef's kiss. So much moved, but

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Speaker 2: Molly was also interesting watching people like Mike Lee go

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Speaker 2: on television the next day and implying that this was

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Speaker 2: great or the usual turd polishers suggesting that maybe it

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Speaker 2: wasn't so bad after all, And of course Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: is pretending it's not so bad after so they have

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Speaker 2: gotten so used to this gas lighting of like, don't

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Speaker 2: you know, pay attention to what actually happened, what you

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Speaker 2: saw with your own eyes. I'm going to tell a

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Speaker 2: completely different story. They have become a addicted to gas lighting.

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Speaker 2: But also it shows how much contempt they have for

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Speaker 2: the voters that they honestly think that they can tell

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Speaker 2: the voters, no, what you just saw happen did not happen.

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Speaker 2: I am going to create my own completely bogus reality,

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Speaker 2: and you are dumb enough or gullible enough to believe it.

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Speaker 2: That contempt for the voters, I think, well, it certainly

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Speaker 2: doesn't speak well of their respect for American democracy. And

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Speaker 2: we'll see whether or not their lack of confidence is justified.

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Speaker 1: Charlie Sikes, you are awesome. I appreciate you so much.

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Speaker 2: And you are a great American. Milling good talking with you.

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Speaker 1: Spring is here, and I bet you are trying to

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Speaker 1: look fashionable, So why not pick up some fashionable all

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Speaker 1: new Fast Politics merchandise. We just opened a news store

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Speaker 1: with all new designs just for you. Get t shirts, hoodies, hats,

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Speaker 1: and top bags. To grab some head to fastpolitics dot com.

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Speaker 1: Tom Steyer is a former twenty twenty presidential candidate and

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Speaker 1: author of Cheaper, Faster, Better, How We'll Win the Climate War.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Tom Steyer.

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Speaker 4: Molly, good morning, So.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about this book. I know I feel like

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Speaker 1: I know why you wrote it, but I want you

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Speaker 1: to explain to us sort of why you decided to

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Speaker 1: write this book your trajectory, since you've always been in

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Speaker 1: the climate space, but explain to us why you decided

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Speaker 1: to write this well.

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Speaker 5: I wanted to write this book because I think the

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Speaker 5: two prevailing theories about where we are in the energy

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Speaker 5: transition are both wrong. The first one is that we

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Speaker 5: rely on fossil fuels. We've always relied on fossil fuels,

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Speaker 5: and we must always rely on fossil fuels, and that's

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Speaker 5: not true. And the second one is that the climate

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Speaker 5: is changing, it's changing fast, We've lost control, We're doomed,

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Speaker 5: and that's not true. What I wanted to say was

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Speaker 5: something diametrically opposed to both of those points, which which is, yes,

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Speaker 5: the natural world is changing faster than most people understand,

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Speaker 5: and not in a good way. But the technology and

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Speaker 5: our ability to solve that problem and to basically create

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Speaker 5: a better world is much greater than people understand. And

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Speaker 5: so why don't we acknowledge that we have an issue

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Speaker 5: and do what Americans do best, which is when there

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Speaker 5: is something serious to be dealt with, we come together.

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Speaker 5: And solve it together. And that's what I'm proposing, is

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Speaker 5: why don't we just win? Why don't we go back

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Speaker 5: to coming together and winning together instead of either one

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Speaker 5: of the two memes that people seem to believe, neither

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Speaker 5: of which is true.

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Speaker 1: My long suffering spouse was an academic and is very

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Speaker 1: very smart and wrong about a lot of stuff, but smart.

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Speaker 1: But he's really right, or at least he has the

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Speaker 1: same exact theory of the cases you do, which is

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Speaker 1: we're blowing through that one and a half degree change, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're going to miss all our numbers when

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Speaker 1: it comes to Paris climate. I mean, talk to us

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Speaker 1: about sort of the state of where we are right now.

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Speaker 5: Sure your description of it perfectly fits the United States

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Speaker 5: of America, because what the people in running Paris, which

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Speaker 5: was the UN group, said that we should not go

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Speaker 5: through one and a half degrees see change celsius change.

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Speaker 5: Of course, no one in America lives in celsius.

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Speaker 2: No one knows what that means.

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Speaker 5: That is absolute gobbledegook. Secondly, people are saying, you know,

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Speaker 5: we are terribly scared about carbon dioxide. What you can't

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Speaker 5: touch it, you can't smell it, you can't see it.

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Speaker 5: No one knows what they're even talking about. And people

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Speaker 5: are going like this is terrible. It's like what Yeah,

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Speaker 5: So let me say this. What we've seen that scientists

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Speaker 5: and people focused on this problem notice, is that we're

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Speaker 5: getting warmer, faster than scientists had predicted. And what the

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Speaker 5: people in Paris in twenty fifteen said is, don't go

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Speaker 5: through one and a half degrees celsius, which is somewhere

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Speaker 5: too between two and three degrees fahrenheit, which is where

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Speaker 5: we all live, right And they said, if you go

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Speaker 5: through that, you're going to start taking a lot of risk.

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Speaker 5: And if you go through two degrees celsius, which is

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Speaker 5: three point six degrees fahrenheit, you're going to get into

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Speaker 5: a lot of trouble right now if you do the

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Speaker 5: last twelve months, The last twelve months were one point

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Speaker 5: six degrees celsius hotter than pre industrial So those are

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Speaker 5: all just numbers that scientists care about. They are going

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Speaker 5: faster than people expected, The impacts are greater than scientists predicted,

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Speaker 5: and so yes, we have a real issue on our

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Speaker 5: hands that is worse than the un expected or all

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Speaker 5: these scientists expected. Having said that, yeah, that's why we have.

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Speaker 5: If it weren't a real thing, I wouldn't be spending

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Speaker 5: a ton of time trying to work on it and

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Speaker 5: invest in solutions and come up with solutions. But the

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Speaker 5: other thing that's true is I can look at those

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Speaker 5: solutions day to day and say, Wow, that's great. We

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Speaker 5: not only have the ability to win this, we are

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Speaker 5: winning it. We're definitely going to win it. So why

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Speaker 5: don't we do that together and do what Americans do,

433
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 5: which is pull together in a crisis.

434
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm struck by is it

435
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 1: seems like people, for example, we just had someone on

436
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 1: this podcast to talk about Florida. Florida is feeling the

437
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 1: effects of the climate crisis on the regular Right, they

438
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: have tornadoes in ways they've never had, but also their

439
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: insurance has gone up percentages that are like a joke, right,

440
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 1: the double tripled, quadrupled. So you know, it's unsustainable to

441
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: have people paying hundreds of dollars of thousands of dollars

442
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 1: of insurance every month. So I'm curious, like, why do

443
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,679
Speaker 1: you think it's so hard for people to put together

444
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 1: massive flooding with climate change?

445
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 5: Well, first, let's take a step back. MALLI, which is this.

446
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 5: I mean, I know that everything in the country is

447
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 5: being politicized, every issue, and this is one of them.

448
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 5: But let's take a step back before we talk about that,

449
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 5: and that's this. If you pull registered Republicans, they get it.

450
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 5: If you ask them, should we have a stronger climate

451
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 5: response from the federal government, they say yes. No, one

452
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 5: is unsure about what's going on because everybody is seeing

453
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 5: the impact. As you said, you know the most Republican,

454
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 5: the reddest states are kind of in arms way more

455
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 5: than anybody else. Or to Texas, Louisiana, you know that

456
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 5: whole Gulf Coast. Yes, so people actually know it. But

457
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 5: if you look at Republican voters, they will say, yes,

458
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 5: we should have a stronger climate response. Yes, I know

459
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 5: this is happening. Yes, I know it's human cause somewhere.

460
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 5: But depending on how you ask the question, somewhere between

461
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 5: fifty five and seventy five percent. The issue is they

462
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 5: don't see it as a critical urgent issue from a

463
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 5: voting standpoint, and therefore, you know, it doesn't really matter

464
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 5: to the people they're voting for because it's not going

465
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 5: to change their vote, and politicians care about things that

466
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 5: change votes. But having said that. Yes, Really, what we're

467
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 5: talking about in trying to solve this is to a

468
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 5: avoid almost unimaginable human suffering, and we can definitely do it.

469
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 5: And all of us want that, and all of us,

470
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 5: you know, want our country to be strong and to

471
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 5: do the right thing and for America to be the

472
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 5: leader and the that we've always been. So when I

473
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 5: look at this, I say, sure, why is insurance up

474
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 5: in Florida. Well, if you build a house in a

475
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 5: floodplane and you know that it's going to flood, insurance

476
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 5: companies have to charge a lot of money or they're

477
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 5: going to lose a lot. You know, Normally building a

478
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 5: house in a floodplane is not advisable, and you can't

479
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 5: ask an insurance company to take away the risk if

480
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 5: the risk is really overwhelming. So we are in a

481
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 5: situation where we need to adapt to what's changed and prevent,

482
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 5: you know, really use the new technologies. That's why my

483
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 5: book is called Cheaper, Faster, Better, Use stuff that is better.

484
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 5: We're not asking people to buy stuff they don't want.

485
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 5: We're saying, let's win in the marketplace. Let's create the products,

486
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 5: Let's create the processes that actually give us a better

487
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 5: life so that people choose them willingly. And that's where

488
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 5: we are and that's what we're trying to do. And

489
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 5: that works for Democrats, that works for Republicans, that works

490
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 5: for America.

491
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: So let's do a minute or two on why this

492
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 1: is so much cheaper, because at this point you have

493
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: a state like Texas. These are not left y ideologes, right,

494
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: they are absolutely very The leadership in Texas very right wing.

495
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: They are running largely on solar. I mean, the reason

496
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: that their grid did not die this winter as it

497
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: has in previous winters was because of solar. So though

498
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: they're not running largely on it, there certainly are checks

499
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: and balances courtesy of solar because solar is cheaper. So

500
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: make it make sense, is well.

501
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 5: First of all, Texas has a very special electric grid,

502
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 5: and it's self contained and is designed to be as

503
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 5: competitive and free market as possible, as you said, while

504
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 5: the legislators in Texas have been saying how bad renewables

505
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 5: are and how important it is to support the fossil

506
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 5: fuel economy, the amount of solar in Texas is tripled

507
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 5: twenty eighteen. It's scheduled to go up another thirty five

508
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 5: percent this year. They have more solar than they have coal.

509
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 5: They're by far the biggest wind producer in the United

510
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 5: States of America because wind is solar cheaper, and they

511
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 5: need that for that grid because they also have had

512
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 5: some really cold storms and they have really really hot summers,

513
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 5: and so to protect people from really to protect their

514
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 5: health and the extremes of cold and heat, they need

515
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 5: a grid that's resilient. And by the way, solar and

516
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 5: wind are the cheapest sources of energy. So when we

517
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 5: think about cheaper, faster, better, Texas is a perfect example

518
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 5: because human beings are smart, and solar power used to

519
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 5: be a heck of a lot more expensive than fossil

520
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 5: fuel power, and so did with but you know what,

521
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 5: people kept working on it and working on it and

522
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 5: working on it and making it better and cheaper and

523
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 5: better and cheaper, and now it's much cheaper. And you

524
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 5: want to know something, it's going to get a lot

525
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 5: cheaper from there. So when we look at this, what

526
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 5: we're seeing is human ingenuity. American ingenuity is better than

527
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 5: dead dinosaurs. It's better now, and it's going to only continue.

528
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 5: That gap is only going to continue cheaper, faster, better.

529
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: Can you talk for a minute about this sort of

530
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: grid update.

531
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 5: So, look, one of the things that has been true

532
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 5: in the United States is we can see how all

533
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 5: of these technologies work, but they have to be their

534
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 5: physical things that have to be built in the real world,

535
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 5: which means they have to be permitted in the real world,

536
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 5: and then they have to be attached to the electric

537
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 5: grids so that the energy can be delivered to consumers.

538
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 5: And that is both of those things have proved because

539
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 5: the approvals and the way that they pay for access

540
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 5: to the grid are all really old fashioned and cumbersome

541
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 5: and slow and cause incredible delays and cost Having said that,

542
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 5: so one of the things is we need to simplify

543
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 5: the approval mechanism for both permitting new renewable installations and

544
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 5: also easing access to the grid, because they are both

545
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 5: gigantic bottlenecks. Having said which, you know, you know, we

546
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 5: see incredible technological work being done across the board, Molly,

547
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 5: And there's a company that I highlight in my book

548
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 5: called Veer Technology, which is basically created a technology that

549
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 5: allows standard power lines to carry up to five times

550
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 5: more energy so you don't have to rebuild the grid

551
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 5: in order to do this. That in fact, there's a

552
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 5: technology to use the existing grid, to use the existing

553
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 5: footprint and carry five times as much electricity. And that's

554
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 5: my point about human ingenuity and American ingenuity. You know

555
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 5: the guy who started that, Tim Heidel. There are people

556
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 5: out there looking at how to improve the world from

557
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 5: a climate response standpoint in a thousand ways, and they

558
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 5: are all over the place, and they're doing it from

559
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 5: every angle and they're brilliant. And when you look at it,

560
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 5: it's like I keep saying, let's come together and solve

561
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 5: this together. Because we have some great young people around

562
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 5: the country who are putting all of their energy and

563
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 5: all of their brain power into figuring out how to

564
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 5: make this work in the real world. And that's very

565
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 5: exciting to see. And we have existing incredible technology that

566
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 5: we can deploy, but also we have so many ideas

567
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 5: that are so great and not all of them are work,

568
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 5: but a whole bunch of them will.

569
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: And then we have people like Elon Mosk. Yes, you

570
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: use climate tax incentives to become a complete fascist. I

571
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: mean it infuriates me to know.

572
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 4: And that is all.

573
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 5: Look in this people are going to do the right thing.

574
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 5: From your standpoint, and my standpoint for a whole bunch

575
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 5: of different reasons. And you know what, we're going to

576
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 5: have to accept that Americans don't always agree on the

577
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,959
Speaker 5: reasons for doing things, but we need to agree on

578
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 5: what we're going to accomplish. And if people want to

579
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 5: do this just purely to make money, and they're gonna

580
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 5: that's all they're interested in, and it's too fine, right,

581
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 5: who cares incentive to do things that benefit us all

582
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 5: and to build companies that help solve this this crisis

583
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 5: and they do things that I say, fine, It's like,

584
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 5: we don't need people to have the perfect incentive. We

585
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,479
Speaker 5: need people to work together to solve the problem. And

586
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 5: if and they're definitely not going to agree on everything,

587
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 5: and you know what, that's Americans never agree on everything, right,

588
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 5: and come together in a crisis and put aside our

589
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 5: differences and just work together. And you know what, if

590
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 5: people do it for reasons that we don't agree with,

591
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 5: if they're doing the work, I say, God bless them.

592
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good attitude, especially in a

593
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: situation like this where really we're in such a dire state.

594
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: Can you do two seconds on methane? In your take

595
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: on methane.

596
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 5: Sure, when we think about electricity, people tend to think

597
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 5: about it in terms of cost per kilo odd hour,

598
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 5: And if you look at it in terms of cost

599
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 5: per kilo ood hour, by far the cheapest ways of

600
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 5: producing energy are solar and wind are the renewables, and

601
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 5: to be fair, in twenty twenty three last year, of

602
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 5: the new electricity generation in the world, eighty six percent

603
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 5: of it was renewable. But when you talk to people

604
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 5: who are charged with making sure that we have electricity

605
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 5: twenty four seven three sixty five, they distinguish between the

606
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 5: energy that is so called intermittent. So solar is intermittent

607
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 5: because the sun is not always shining, and wind is

608
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 5: intermittent because the wind is not always blown. But fossil

609
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 5: fuel energy is something where it's sitting somewhere waiting to

610
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 5: be used. So therefore it can be considered quote unquote

611
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 5: base load energy. And the argument that people are using

612
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 5: now to create more methane capability or they use the

613
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 5: words natural gas or liquefied natural gas capability around the

614
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 5: world is for basically that base load, which they say

615
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 5: is it's not enough to have cheap energy, you need

616
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 5: to have cheap energy all the time. And so when

617
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 5: you look at it, people have said that, Okay, methane

618
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 5: is half as polluting as coal, So if we replace

619
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 5: coal with methane, that is an improvement of fifty percent.

620
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 5: That's a big step forward, that's the argument.

621
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 4: But it makes the climate much hotter, much faster.

622
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 5: Right. That be true in the lab, but it's not

623
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 5: true in the real world. If methane escapes as you're

624
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 5: trying to get deliver it to people's houses to heat

625
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 5: or cool, that escape. It's an incredibly powerful greenhouse gas.

626
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 5: And if more than a couple percent escapes, it's worse

627
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 5: than coal actually in the short run. So the fact

628
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 5: of the matter is, and we're not sure how much

629
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 5: escapes because but from what we can tell, it's very

630
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 5: likely that at least two percent escapes. So it's really

631
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 5: not a clean solution. It is a solution that is baselok,

632
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 5: but it's not a clean one. So if we build

633
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 5: a lot more natural gas capability, which the United States,

634
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 5: you know, there are a lot of people in the

635
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 5: United States who want to do that. If we build

636
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 5: that capability, it's a forty year capability, and that takes

637
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 5: us that blows us out of the water from meeting

638
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 5: any of our climacles. It's magical thinking that somehow you

639
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 5: can keep polluting but pollution won't build up, because of

640
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 5: course it will. So then the question is, okay, but

641
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 5: people realistically need to provide energy electricity twenty four to

642
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 5: seven three sixty five, And how is that possible when

643
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 5: you have only intermittent stuff? And the answer is, there

644
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 5: are a bunch of ways that can happen, but the

645
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 5: biggest one is probably batteries, because what we've seen is

646
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 5: the cost of batteries of storage. So yes, the sun

647
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 5: only shines sometimes and the wind only blows sometimes, but

648
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,959
Speaker 5: if you then store it in a battery, you now

649
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 5: have base load power if the battery lasts long enough,

650
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 5: and together it's cheap enough, and the cost of battery

651
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 5: is down eighty percent, and it'll go down a lot more.

652
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 5: And we're in the process of a lot of people

653
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 5: building new kinds of batteries and doing new technology and

654
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 5: batteries to extend duration and to reduce cost. So when

655
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 5: we look forward, it seems to me in technology there's

656
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 5: no nothing for certain, but it seems extremely like that

657
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 5: we will go through a couple of revolutions in battery technology,

658
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 5: both in terms of cost, which it's already gone through,

659
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 5: but also in terms of duration so that you can

660
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 5: actually store the energy long enough so that you have

661
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 5: a safe twenty four seven, three sixty five. That's the

662
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 5: first thing I'd say. Second thing is there are a

663
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 5: couple other things that may fit this bill. One is

664
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 5: enhanced geothermal, basically tapping the earth for really hot water

665
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 5: and steam. And the third is can we do safe,

666
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 5: cheap nuclear. That's very unclear and people in the United

667
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 5: States have been very scared about both parts of that.

668
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 5: The safe art is there going to be an accident

669
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 5: or are we going to create a nuclear waste for

670
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 5: one hundred thousand years that's incredibly toxic and dangerous to people.

671
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 5: So they are real issues with nuclear, but people are

672
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 5: working hard to see if they can solve those. But

673
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 5: to me, the big issues are going to be, Okay,

674
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 5: when do the batteries reach a duration when people feel

675
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 5: like okay, that turns intermittent solar and wind into baseload,

676
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 5: And I think very simple. I'm a big believer in that,

677
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 5: and I'm not a big believer in building forty year

678
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 5: infrastructure for methane when in fact, we're going to solve

679
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 5: the problem in this decade, that to me seems like

680
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 5: building a problem that we can't get her out instead

681
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 5: of trying to come up with a real solution to

682
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 5: the problem.

683
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: Tom Steyer, thank you so much for joining us.

684
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 5: Totally right well.

685
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: David Leonhardt is a senior writer at The New York

686
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: Times and author of ours was The Shining Future, The

687
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: Story of the American Dream. Welcome back to Fast Politics.

688
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 4: Thanks Molly, it's great to be back.

689
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: So happy to have you back. I actually was listening

690
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: to a rival podcast and you were on there, and

691
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, I was.

692
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 4: Like, that's a fair I will always come on your podcast.

693
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: Very good because you know, one of the things about

694
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 1: having a very entitled childhood was that I always feel

695
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: entitled to get certain guests, and so I was like,

696
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: this is not fair. But anyways, so the idea that

697
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: there's something bipartisan in this incredibly contentious moment in American

698
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: politics is a and so will you talk about that?

699
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was the idea of one of my editors,

700
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 4: which is, look, we all talk about how polarized American

701
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 4: society is, and it is polarized, but we talk about

702
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 4: it often, sometimes we lapse into descriptions of it's so

703
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 4: polarized that Washington can't get anything done in gridlock. And

704
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 4: so let's keep that thought in our mind. Our country

705
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 4: is polarized. It doesn't always feel like Washington can get

706
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 4: things done. It doesn't feel like the parties can agree

707
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 4: on anything. And now let's think about this list. In

708
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 4: the last several years, the parties under Donald Trump agreed

709
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 4: on major COVID relief. Under President Biden, there has been

710
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:50,240
Speaker 4: a bipartisan infrastructure bill that passed, a very big bill, roads, bridges, internet, infrastructure, water,

711
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 4: you name it. There is a bipartisan bill in the

712
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 4: semiconducductor industry that passed to try to build up our

713
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 4: domestic semiconductor industry to make sure we're not relying on

714
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 4: China or other countries that are unfriendly to the US.

715
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 4: There's a list of like eight or nine other bipartisan

716
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 4: bills that aren't as big on veterans' health and antiation,

717
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 4: hate crimes and even gun violence, and the Electoral count Act.

718
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 4: We've got Biden continuing many of Trump's trade policies and

719
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 4: expanding some of them. We just had another major bipartisan

720
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 4: legislation pass on TikTok and aide to Ukraine and other allies.

721
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 4: And we just had Democrats in the House save the

722
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 4: job of the House Republican speaker when far right Republicans

723
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 4: rebelled against him because of that Ukraine bill, something that

724
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 4: has basically, according to my colleagues who cover the Hill,

725
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 4: has never happened. You've never had members of one party

726
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 4: save another. And I'm not even giving you some of

727
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 4: the fun performative examples of bipartisanship, like JD Vance saying

728
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 4: positive things about Lena Khan, President Biden's trust busting head

729
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 4: of the FTC. And so we look at all this

730
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 4: and we just say, wait a second, how is this happening?

731
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: I want more on Lena Khan and JD Vance for

732
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: a minute, because this is something I'm particularly interested in,

733
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 1: and I think Lena Khan is pretty interesting, unusual person.

734
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: So can you just talk about that for a second.

735
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 4: Absolutely, so, Lena Khan rocketed to wonky stardom. That's right.

736
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: I'm like Lena Kahan. She's a real celebrity. Yeah.

737
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 4: As a Yale law student, she wrote a law review

738
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 4: article saying that the country needs to take much more

739
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 4: seriously Amazon as a monopoly and do something about it.

740
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 4: Got her a bunch of attentions. She became kind of

741
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 4: an anti trust activist who got a bunch of attention

742
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 4: along with Tim Wu and Zephyr teach Out and some

743
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 4: other legal scholars. And Biden, despite her extremely young age,

744
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 4: named her to run the Federal Trade Commission. So she's

745
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 4: one of his, if not his number one, most important

746
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 4: anti trust regulator. She is, by any measure, one of

747
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 4: the most progressive members of the Biden administration. She really

748
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 4: wants to take a new approach to anti trust. And yeah,

749
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 4: when Jade Vance recently was talking about the Biden administration,

750
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 4: he said that he thought she was the only member

751
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 4: of it who was doing a pretty good job. Jd

752
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 4: Vance is, I think fairly can considered a far right senator.

753
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,439
Speaker 4: So how is it that someone who is a far

754
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 4: right senator would be praising someone who big business views

755
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 4: as a far left regulator. And it's that fusion of

756
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 4: right and left that I think unlocks some of the

757
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 4: mystery of this bipartisan flur.

758
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: So that's quite interesting. Okay, So there is a place

759
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: where these two worlds meet.

760
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 4: There is a place where they mean. And look, I

761
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 4: don't want to exaggerate it. If someone's saying, but abortion,

762
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 4: transgender rights, but Donald Trump's hostility democracy. Yes, there are

763
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 4: huge partisan gaps on a lot of issues. Yes, Donald

764
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 4: Trump threatens democracy in some basic ways. All those things

765
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 4: are true. If we're trying to make sense of it,

766
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 4: How is it that there's been bipartisan cooperation on these issues.

767
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 4: I think there are two main explanations. One is foreign policy.

768
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 4: We really are in a competition now with China and

769
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 4: an emerging global alliance that President Biden I think accurately

770
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 4: calls an alliance of autocracies. They don't work together and everything,

771
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 4: but they increasingly work together. So that's China, it's Russia,

772
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 4: it's occasionally North Korea, and it's Iran as well as

773
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 4: the non state groups that are on backs like Hesba,

774
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 4: Lahamas and the Huthis. And you really do see cooperation

775
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 4: among all these countries and groups. They all are authoritarian groups.

776
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 4: And I think American policy makers of both the Democratic

777
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 4: and Republican Party, at least a significant number of them,

778
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 4: have become really worried about this, and particularly about China.

779
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 4: And in the same way that the Cold War in

780
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 4: the forties, fifties and sixties sparked a whole bunch of

781
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 4: bipartisan legislating, the Eisenhower Highway System, the post Sputnik emphasis

782
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 4: on science education. We see some of that today. So

783
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 4: that's the semiconductor bill, it's the TikTok bill, a bunch

784
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 4: of these things, I think our responses to China. It's

785
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 4: the trade policy. And then the second thing is the

786
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 4: failure of neoliberalism. And Molly, you and I talked about

787
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 4: this when I came on to talk about my book

788
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 4: about the American Dream, and you look at what neoliberalism is,

789
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 4: which it's these set of policies that reduce regulations and

790
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 4: shrink labor unions and increase trade and increase immigration and

791
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 4: basically shrink government and increase market forces. And they happened

792
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 4: in the seventies and eighties and nineties and early aughts.

793
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 4: And the promise was that this would deliver prosperity to

794
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 4: Americans and it would deliver freedom to the world. And

795
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 4: those promises just haven't been met. China isn't freer, working

796
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 4: class Americans are not doing particularly well, and so the

797
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 4: failures of neoliberalism have led to what I described as

798
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 4: a rise of neo populism. I deliberately picked that term.

799
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 4: I know some people are uncomfortable with the phrase populism.

800
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 4: But this neopopulism includes trade restrictions, it includes more investment

801
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 4: in things like infrastructure and businesses like semiconductors. It basically says, yes,

802
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 4: we are a capitalist economy, but if the government just

803
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 4: kind of lets everything go, it doesn't work out that well.

804
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 4: It hasn't worked out that well for many Americans, and

805
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 4: despite what the neoliberals told us, it has not remade

806
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 4: the world in a democratic image.

807
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: So interesting because as we're talking about this, I'm thinking,

808
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 1: like the left and the right are pretty aligned. Again

809
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: with their anti China sentiment, They're very aligned when it

810
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: comes to the capitalism needs. I mean, how they want

811
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 1: to do it is different, but you know varies by party,

812
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: but both parties believe that unfettered capitalism hasn't delivered results.

813
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 1: I mean that's what you're saying, right.

814
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 4: Yes, I would say I think the Democratic Party is

815
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 4: very comfortable with that, and I think the Republican Party

816
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 4: is torn. You do have in the Republican Party figures

817
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 4: who are comfortable with the idea that we need to

818
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 4: move on from neoliberalism. That helps explain how some of

819
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 4: these big pieces of legislation like infrastructure and semiconductor's got

820
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 4: a meaningful number of Republican votes. It explains the JD.

821
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 4: Anthley Nakom thing we were talking about. But there's also

822
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 4: still a really strong part of the Republican Party that

823
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 4: does believe basically in lasaf fair capitalism. I mean, the

824
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 4: Supreme Court majority is basically a pro lasafe fair majority.

825
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 4: Donald Trump doesn't seem to care that much about policy.

826
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 4: When he campaigns, he campaigns as a populist. When he governs,

827
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 4: he's a mix. His trade policies are populous, his tax

828
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 4: cut for rich people is not populist, right.

829
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 1: I mean, he mostly wants to just do whatever's good

830
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 1: for him.

831
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 4: Yes, he doesn't really care about policy details on most issues.

832
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 4: But his rejection Trump's rejection of laisaif fair economics, the

833
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 4: fact that he criticized trade, the fact that he stopped

834
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 4: talking about cutting Medicare and social Security the way Paul

835
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 4: Ryan was talking about it, did open up the republic

836
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 4: Can Party to have more people reject the laissez fair

837
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 4: economics of the eighties and nineties and we see more

838
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 4: of that now.

839
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: Such an interesting point as we look at this, one

840
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: of the things that I'm struck by is it seems

841
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: like we're tariffs are highly inflationary. Both parties, Biden and

842
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: Trump have decided that tariffs are the way to go

843
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: after China.

844
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 3: It makes me a little uncomfortable.

845
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: But tell us why they've decided it, and if you

846
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: think they're right to so.

847
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 4: Tariffs can be highly inflationary, and I think the kind

848
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 4: of tariffs Trump is talking about probably would be highly

849
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 4: inflationary because they would apply to everything in the economy.

850
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 4: But it's also important to remember that tariffs have an

851
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 4: incredibly successful track record of help to build up economies.

852
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 4: I mean, the United States became an economic powerhouse in

853
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 4: part through tariffs to protect our early industries. China has

854
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 4: become economic powerhouse in part through its own protectionism, the

855
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 4: fact that other countries can't go freely compete in China.

856
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 4: And there is a very long successful history of countries

857
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 4: saying we want to protect this domestic industry for one

858
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 4: of a number of reasons. Maybe it's national security. You

859
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 4: need to be making things that protect your national security.

860
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 4: You can't rely on your global competitors to make those

861
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 4: because if you go to war, you're going to lose.

862
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 4: You also want to make sure if you identify an

863
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 4: industry as being a growing industry important to the future,

864
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 4: that you're going to have that kind of domestic industry.

865
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 4: And so it's not clear to me that targeted tariffs,

866
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 4: say on electric vehicles or semiconductors, are economically harmful. They

867
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 4: might be, they might also be economically beneficial. And I

868
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 4: just think it's really important that we get beyond the

869
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 4: kind of instinct that many of us in kind of

870
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 4: elite circles have to, oh, my goodness, trade restrictions have

871
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 4: to be bad. Most Americans are very comfortable with trade restrictions.

872
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 4: They favor them the same way most Americans favorite immigration restrictions.

873
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 4: I know this is an overword used, but I think elites,

874
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 4: by which I mean campaign downers and policy experts and

875
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 4: journalists and party activists and others, I think they spent

876
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 4: decades telling Americans, Hey, this kind of open trade, open immigration,

877
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 4: neoliberal economy is going to be really great for you.

878
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 4: And many Americans have looked at the evidence and they've said, no,

879
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 4: it's not. And so the idea that we're actually looking

880
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 4: at something like tariffs, to me is a sign of

881
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,720
Speaker 4: lower case de democratic health, in which our policy makers

882
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 4: are saying, Hey, this policy we pursued that people were

883
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 4: skeptical of didn't work out the way we promised, and

884
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 4: now they're hostile to it, and maybe we should not

885
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 4: keep doing the same old thing that hasn't been working.

886
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 5: Well.

887
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: They're saying that tarifs is really interesting. But I'm hoping

888
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 1: you could talk now, if we're going to go here

889
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: about immigration, because while there is sort of mixed public

890
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: sentiment on immigration, clearly one of the reasons why we

891
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 1: as a country are having the best COVID recovery is

892
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: because we have immigration. It's not the only reason, but

893
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: it certainly helped us along. And right now our immigration

894
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: system is in such disarray. I mean, can you just

895
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: speak to sort of where we are with that and

896
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: what that could look like.

897
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, when you say we've had the best

898
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,879
Speaker 4: COVID response, I think it's important to say that's GDP right, right, Right?

899
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 1: Economic GDP compared to other affluent countries.

900
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 4: Right, you go ask most people and not just ask them,

901
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 4: but you look at some of the data on wages.

902
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 4: You know, the wage recovery and COVID's been fine, but

903
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 4: it hasn't been great because inflation has been so high.

904
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 4: So it's not like most Americans have gotten a big

905
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 4: raise over the last few years. I mean, they haven't,

906
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 4: and they hate inflation for good reason. It's like a

907
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 4: tax or a pay cut. Now, immigration isn't the reason

908
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 4: for that. But I think we should be clear that

909
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 4: when Americans say that the economy has still been disappointing

910
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 4: to them, whether that's over the last few years or

911
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 4: certainly over the last few decades, their right to feel

912
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 4: that way. I mean, the economic data is in line

913
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 4: with the idea that the American economy has not been

914
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 4: serving most people.

915
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 5: Well.

916
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 4: I think the left has made a really big mistake

917
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 4: on immigration, the modern left, and it's not a mistake

918
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 4: that the left historically made about immigration. A lot of

919
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 4: parts of the left basically try to pretend that it's

920
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 4: a free lunch, that it has no downsides, that if

921
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 4: we have very high levels of immigration it benefits everybody,

922
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 4: that it benefits the immigrants who are coming, which I

923
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 4: think it clearly does, and that it also benefits American workers,

924
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,280
Speaker 4: whether it's in the United States or Europe. Or Japan,

925
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 4: or pretty much any country. Most people are deeply uncomfortable

926
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 4: with very high levels of immigration, and we have had

927
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 4: very high levels of immigration, and there are some economic

928
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,720
Speaker 4: costs to that. It expands the labor for and provides

929
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 4: wage competition. Why do you think it is that doctors

930
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,720
Speaker 4: work really hard to prevent immigrants from immediately coming here

931
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 4: and competing for jobs. As you probably know, Molly, if

932
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 4: you're a doctor in another country and you move here,

933
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 4: you can't just start practicing medicine. You have to have

934
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 4: your medical training in this country in most instances, which

935
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 4: means if you're forty or fifty years old, you just

936
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 4: can't really come here and be a doctor. You'd have

937
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 4: to spend years getting training to be certified. That's because

938
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 4: doctors have political power, and they understand when you let

939
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 4: in a whole bunch more people to compete with you

940
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,240
Speaker 4: in the labor market, it tends to hold your wages down, right.

941
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,320
Speaker 4: And the idea that the more elite parts of the

942
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 4: left in our country have told workers, no, no, no,

943
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 4: silly you, How could you ever think there are downsides

944
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 4: of immigration. Workers have rebelled, And that's why immigration is

945
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 4: such a vulnerability for Joe Biden. I think it's really

946
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 4: important to say this isn't the history of the progressive

947
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 4: left Historically, whether it's civil rights leader or labor union leaders,

948
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 4: or Barack Obama or you name it, Democrats were very

949
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 4: comfortable with the idea of we need to protect the

950
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 4: rights of immigrants, and we honor this country's history as

951
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 4: a beacon for immigrants. But that doesn't mean that we're

952
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 4: constantly in favor of higher and higher immigration. It doesn't

953
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 4: mean that we reduce border security. We are a country,

954
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 4: as Barbara Jordan, the congresswoman and civil rights icon say,

955
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 4: we are a country of laws, and if you don't

956
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 4: have a border that keeps people out, you don't really

957
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 4: have the most important kind of law there is. And

958
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 4: I just think the left has lost that, And particularly

959
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 4: when you consider how much of a threat Donald Trump

960
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 4: is to so many democratic values. I'm genuinely confused about

961
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,720
Speaker 4: why the Biden administration has been so slow to shore

962
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 4: up what is a massive vulnerability it has on this issue.

963
00:51:57,160 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 3: But didn't the Biden administration how negotiate like the absolutely

964
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 3: most funitive immigration bill that has been introduced since nineteen

965
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 3: ninety one.

966
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 4: It did, and Trump then killed it right, But.

967
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 3: I mean that's not Biden's fault, is it.

968
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 4: No, it's definitely not. It was incredibly cynical of Trump

969
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 4: to kill that bill and for congressional Republicans to go

970
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 4: along with it.

971
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: And I mean that was a bill. I wouldn't have

972
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: liked that bill as an elite liberal. I mean, but

973
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: it was a bill that Biden was all in on.

974
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: So and they bullied Chris Murphy into spending all Christmas

975
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 1: negotiating it.

976
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 4: I mean with James.

977
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: Langford who asked him about his faith journey. So they

978
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 1: really made as much of a good faith effort to

979
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: do an immigration bill as anyone has ever seen. I mean,

980
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 1: the fact that it did work.

981
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,439
Speaker 4: Yes, it is absolutely true. They tried really hard. They've

982
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 4: tried really hard over the last six months to fix

983
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 4: this problem. So maybe I should have said, I'm confused

984
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 4: why I took them this long. But they also helped

985
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 4: create this problem. I mean, Joe Biden ran for office

986
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,720
Speaker 4: very clearly saying we are going to welcome more people.

987
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 4: Dexter Filkins did a very good piece for The New

988
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 4: Yorker documenting this. People heard that message. He took office

989
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 4: and immediately loosened immigration policy in a bunch of ways.

990
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 4: Some of them were actual ways that changed the law,

991
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 4: like expanding parole, which is supposed to be this gets

992
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 4: really wonky, but it is supposed to be used on

993
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 4: individual bases, and they basically expanded it to admit hundreds

994
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 4: of thousands of more people. And they just sent a

995
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 4: message that both would be migrants and the Mexican cartels

996
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 4: that run the transportation networks very much heard, which is

997
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,240
Speaker 4: it's going to be easier to get into this country

998
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,919
Speaker 4: than it was, and huge numbers of people came again.

999
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 4: I think for them it's a very rational decision. For

1000
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 4: immigrants who move here, they do very well. And so

1001
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 4: the Biden administration really does deserve significant responsibility for this

1002
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 4: huge surge in migration, and they spent a couple of

1003
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 4: years really not doing much to change that, and then yes,

1004
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty three, they work very hard to try

1005
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 4: to solve this problem and Republicans cynically stopped it. But

1006
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 4: to me, that doesn't give them kind of a carte

1007
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 4: blanche on the issue.

1008
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: I have interviewed a lot of people for this podcast,

1009
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 1: including a doctor at Planned Parenthood in Arizona who told

1010
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 1: me the story of a woman who had walked here

1011
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 1: from South America and been gang raved multiple times and

1012
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: was able to get an abortion before the abortion ban came.

1013
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: So I would suggest that a lot of these people

1014
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: are not coming to do better, but just to do Look,

1015
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 1: there are certainly people who come to this country and

1016
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: have better experiences and make more money and do better.

1017
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: But a lot of these people come to this country

1018
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: are just desperate and are running for their lives. So

1019
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: in my mind, you know, I think it is important

1020
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: that this is not going on foot across the border.

1021
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: Is not an experience that I would ever want to

1022
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: have to try to do. So I do think there's

1023
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: a fair amount of these people who are really just

1024
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 1: out of options.

1025
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 4: There are a huge number of people who are out

1026
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 4: of options, and the United States can't admit everyone who's

1027
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 4: out of options. Around the world, we can't admit close

1028
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 4: to everyone. We should remain a beacon for people who

1029
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 4: are true political refugees. I think the thing to think

1030
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 4: about a little bit is by any measure of global

1031
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 4: poverty has plummeted over the last couple decades, and by

1032
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 4: any measure, the number of people who are killed in

1033
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,359
Speaker 4: violent conflicts has declined. Over the last couple decades. So

1034
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 4: I don't think it can simply be the case that

1035
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 4: immigration of this country is surging because situation around the

1036
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 4: world has gotten worse by any objective measure. In poor countries,

1037
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 4: the situation has gotten better over the last few decades.

1038
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 4: And I think what many Americans look at these numbers

1039
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 4: and they say, how much of it is our responsibility

1040
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 4: to admit people around the world. And different people can

1041
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 4: come to different reasonable conclusions about that. But the Biden

1042
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 4: administration has been in a place that most Americans are

1043
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,720
Speaker 4: not comfortable with, and it's part of why his reelection

1044
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 4: campaign is so difficult.

1045
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 1: I'm just glad that my great grandparents didn't have to

1046
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 1: worry about that. So anyway, David, thank you so much

1047
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:15,839
Speaker 1: for joining us.

1048
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 4: Thank you, Molly, No moment full.

1049
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 1: Jesse Cannon my junk fest.

1050
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 4: You know, we used to ask what came first, the

1051
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 4: checker or the egg.

1052
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 5: Now everybody seems to be asking what came first?

1053
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 2: Trump having bad lawyers or him making those lawyers.

1054
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 5: Bet what are you seeing?

1055
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you will be listening to this podcast on Wednesday.

1056
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,479
Speaker 1: Tuesday was the last day of closing arguments in the

1057
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 1: Trump New York criminal trial, which you may remember, Todd

1058
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: Blanche went sort of off the script and said some

1059
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 1: stuff that he maybe hoped would cause a mistrial. Judge Murshan,

1060
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:03,280
Speaker 1: who is a very measured guy, told that. He said

1061
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 1: he doesn't think it's an accident when Blanche told the

1062
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,560
Speaker 1: jury that the jury should think twice before sending a

1063
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:12,840
Speaker 1: man to prison, which Trump would not go to prison

1064
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 1: for this, or if he did, it would take many,

1065
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 1: many appeals. Merchand to Blanche, your statement was outrageous and

1066
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: highly inappropriate. Merchant's tone was tempered, but you could tell

1067
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: how angry he was with Todd Blanche. Basically, Trump has

1068
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: terrible lawyers who are being terrible and honestly, I mean,

1069
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 1: couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. That's it for

1070
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday

1071
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes

1072
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard,

1073
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1074
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening.