WEBVTT - Businessweek Extra- Filmmaker Nick Bilton 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.400 This is Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Carol 0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:09.040 Masser and I'm Tim Stanovic. Welcome to the Bloomberg Business 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.680 Week Extra. It's a weekly podcast bringing you a highlight 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.400 our favorite interview from the week. And this week it's 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:17.119 really a simple question, Carol, do you want to be famous? 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.279 I really did love this interview. It's a question asked 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.280 by a new HBO Max documentary. It provides really a 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.640 window into the world of influencers. It's called Fake Famous. 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:28.440 It's been described as a yearlong social experiment to turn 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:32.840 three individuals into Instagram influencers behind the camera, in front 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.200 of the camera, and creating the influencers. Is a veteran 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.519 technology journalist Nick Bilton. He's written for Vanity Fair, the 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:40.440 New York Times. He's also the author of the book 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:44.400 Hatching Twitter, A true story of money, power, friendship and betrayal. 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:46.559 By the Way, it's a good book. He wrote, produced 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.680 and directed the documentary, and we began with just kind 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.120 of asking how it all came about. I've been a 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.120 technology reporter for almost twenty years now, and um I 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.600 was a Fanity Fair about five years ago, and Graydon 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.440 Carter was my editor chief, and you know, we were 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.600 kicking around a few documentary ideas over the years, and 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:06.480 a couple of years back, he said, oh, we should 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:09.920 do a documentary on influencers, uh. And I said, oh, well, 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.280 the whole industry is a bit of a joke. And 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:13.520 he said what do you mean. I said, well, I 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.800 could make an influencer in ten minutes. And he said, well, 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.479 that's our documentary and um, and that was essentially how 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.120 this all began. And I had been at the New 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.800 York Times. Uh, I had written about box. You know, 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.600 these these uh fake accounts that exist on social media 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.840 that can be created by writing code and so on, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:35.560 and I had written about the rise of them and 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.600 how advanced they were getting over the years. I had 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.319 then written about them when I was a bandy fair 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.880 talking about the election, how Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.520 both had millions and millions of fake accounts following them, 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.800 and of course influencers employed these same tactics. And that 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:53.559 was essentially what we wanted to show in the film. 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:55.800 And Nicky say that influence our culture is is a 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.080 bit of a joke, but hey, there's there's real money 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:00.400 behind this, and and there's real money behind it's still 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.360 even though it seems like a lot of people and 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.520 companies are in on the joke. Well, I think it's 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.320 interesting because there is real money behind it, um, But 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.640 it's at the same time it's not. It's it is 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:16.120 so inauthentic in in the way that the money, you know, 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:20.520 changes hands, in the way that influences essentially purport to 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:25.000 be kind of these these new bearers of ideas and 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.320 culture and consumerism and so on. It's you know, when 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:29.920 we really kind of show this in the film, I mean, 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:32.679 one of the things that we talk about is is 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:38.160 how influencers the entire concept of it, uh is it is. 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.240 It is very similar to advertising, but even more extreme 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:43.880 in that the whole goal is to make you feel 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.600 worse about yourself, so that you want to experience what 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.000 an influencer experiences in their wonderful life of their free 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.839 vacations and their fancy Lamborghinis and this, that and the other, 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:55.800 and and really they're getting all this stuff for free, 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.440 but they're not necessarily being honest about whether they actually 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.760 like it or not. And so sorry, well, this is 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:04.000 this is like kind of social media at its core, though, right, 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:07.280 it's not just influencers who we are posting the highlight reel. Right, 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:11.120 this is like how how normal people use Instagram. Right, 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.680 They show off the best parts of their lives. It's 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.000 like a holiday letter, you know, the trips to Africa 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:20.600 and the kids are all getting straight a's on steroids. Well, 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.720 it's it's completely true. I think that you know, Instagram, 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:27.520 I personally believe is the worst at this. They're the 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.440 guiltiest of it because Instagram was founded on this idea 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:36.280 of being deceptive to the viewer and the uh the 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.680 whole point of filters that were there was a highlight 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.080 of Instagram, which can make your really bad photo look 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.840 really good by just pressing a single button. And the 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.360 founders of Instagram, they wanted it to feel like like 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:52.920 a Vogue magazine or a Vanity Fair. They wanted people 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:57.040 to post the beautiful shot images and make it appear 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.640 as if you know, that was the life that you 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.320 wouldn't living. And I think that the end result of 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.000 that was that you now have a system in place 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.840 where I think it's just the most inauthentic platform on 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.480 the Internet. Every every platform has the problems. You have 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.040 Twitter where it's and everyone's just angry at everyone else, 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.920 and you know, they all have their things, but Instagram, 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.120 I think is the absolute most deceptive of them all. Well, 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:23.880 and talk about deception. I mean it's like when you 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:26.080 find out reality show, what do you mean that that's 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:29.279 not real? Um? And you're finding it out with Instagram 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.400 and I love where you know you showed and you 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:35.200 guys use like a toilet seat to be a plane window, 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:39.400 like who to thunk? Like it's just amazing a new toilets. 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.960 But what's interesting is you know, and Tim had you know, 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:44.960 Tim and I were talking before we got going. You know, 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.720 kids want to do this. They want to be influencers, 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.080 they want to be famous, which is something you ask 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:54.040 a group of of twenties some things right when you 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.720 kind of line up a couple of people to work with. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.280 So the one of the other aspects of the giving 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.080 of this film that we did a lot of research 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:06.320 into and I had read about before, was, um, when 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.200 you look at the studies that have been done, there's 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.839 all these longitudinal studies who have been done Lais done 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:15.400 them other other universities to where over the years they 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:17.160 ask kids every single year, what do you want to 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.279 be when you grow up and back in the sixties 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.440 and seventies, kids used to be wanted to be a 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:25.120 teacher or a lawyer, doctor. Back in the eighties, they 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.760 started to kind of get a little bit interested in fame, 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:29.920 but it was famed for something that they had done, 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.800 like they wanted to be a basketball player or an 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.200 actor or something. Fast forward to today and kids just 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:38.360 want to be famous and they want to be famous 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.440 influencers because they think that is the fast track to 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.919 get there. And so now eight seven percent of children 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:48.080 say in America say they want to be famous influences 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:50.280 when they grow up. And you know, that's interesting that 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:53.599 you say, because you do highlight three three people, Chris, 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.480 Dominique and Wiley, And that's kind of without giving too 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:58.359 much away, that's that's kind of the conclusion that that 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.080 Chris comes to, right, he talked about how he wants 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:05.440 to be famous for being him. Yeah, so we you know, 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.880 the film started off with this idea of like, let's 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.559 go and get three people who have a very small 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.800 following online. Let me go and buy them fake followers. Um, 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.839 you know, fake box that exists on social media. Let's 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:19.800 do a bunch of fake photo shoots. As you said, 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.760 where we you know, we we took an aeroplane seat. 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:24.599 You hold it up against the screen that looks like 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.960 it's out of an airplane window. You take a photo 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.039 and it actually looks like you're in a private Yeah, 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.359 it's really amazing. We're all going to be like buying 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:36.160 toilet seats now Rember on a fake private jet. And 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.440 then we took we took three people in this regard, 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:41.960 did all this stuff and then wants to see which 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.600 direction they would go. And we we genuinely had no 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:47.480 idea how it was going to work out. I didn't 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.560 know if if they were all become superstars or there 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:52.960 would or it would just sailed dismally. And we were 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:55.240 really lucky that it took three different routes. We had 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.800 one of the guys who was just like, I am 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:02.120 not interested in this. This is ridiculous. Uh, this is 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.120 all fake. I want real fame. I want I'd rather 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.040 not be famous than have fake fame. We had another 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.680 guy who essentially panicked in the middle of all this 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.920 and was bullied online and shut his account down, and 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.840 his story was pretty fascinating to watch and and sad. 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.840 And then we had our third person who essentially went 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.200 all the way and became a want of a better description, 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:31.080 a famous influencer and um, and she got so much 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:35.240 reached stuff, all because we had bought her fake followers 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.240 and it looked like she had hundreds of thousands of 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.600 real followers. I mean, it was a It was a 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.680 life changer in some ways for her. Right, she was 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:45.120 an actress, you know, and she talked about kind of 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.080 going out beforehand, and you know, it wasn't so easy. 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:50.880 But once she built up are you built up in 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.200 Instagram following? For her, she was getting callbacks and people 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.520 would note that when she went back, you know, to 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.760 those auditions. Well, I think that this is I think 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:03.560 one of the status aspect of our culture today, especially 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.880 business and and people's young people's pursuits of what they 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.680 want to do when they grow up, you know and 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.360 get out of school and so on. When you go 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.440 to an audition in Los Angeles as an actor and actress, 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.040 the first thing they're looking at is how many follows 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.720 you have on Instagram, which is just such a stupid metric. 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:26.720 Quite frankly, it just doesn't mean anything exactly. Could you 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:29.440 imagine if Meryl Street had to say, show how many 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.120 followers you had on social media before she got a gig. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.800 But it but it's not just that industry, every industry. 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:40.720 It's writing, it's radio, it's just a creative industry. And 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.160 it's and I think it is such a uh, just 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:48.439 the wrong metric to be looking at, and I completely 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.160 fault the people who run these industries for doing it. 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:53.880 And I think it's just so shortsighted. But what was 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:58.280 so evident in the in the filming of the doc 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:03.160 was that the Dominique who we got to follows her 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:05.600 life change as a result. She got called back, she 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:07.520 got you know, there was one moment that we didn't 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.120 put in the film where she her mom was in 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.320 town visiting her in l A. And she was they 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.200 were trying to get into the stancy restaurant. They couldn't 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:18.480 get in. Her mom showed her dominique Instagram account and 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:20.319 and showed how many falls they had and they let 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:21.959 her right in. Well, I can't believe that made that. 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:26.720 I can't believe that we didn't film it something that 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.439 happened on the side. But but it's just just even 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.439 that was just so ludicrous. And I think that it's 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:35.640 like a currency almost it's a currency. That's exactly what 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:37.200 it is. So is this the way that you see 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.440 things continuing nick even though there is more scrutiny, especially 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.160 with this documentary around the industry, because you do make 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.600 the point that hey, this isn't the best interest of 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:49.680 sort of everyone involved, that this thing doesn't come tumbling down. 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:54.199 This influencer culture, I mean, I think that I think 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.679 influence the culture has already burned itself quite frankly. I mean, 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.480 I think that the most influencers lived in the bubble 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.439 and think that people believe that they're you know, that 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:05.839 their lives and their lives, and I think most people 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.520 realize that they're not. Um. I think that, you know, 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.199 one thing, it's we have this expert on the in 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.040 the film, just In Bateman, who of course as a 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.000 child star and has gone on to written an amazing 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:21.120 book about fame and what it means for society, and 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.920 she says that these people are not famous. Their incommercial hosts, 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.080 you know, they're hawking a product. And that really stuck 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:29.640 with me because I think, at the end of the day, 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.320 that's really what influencer culture is. It's just you're just 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:37.080 a fancy infomercial host and and one thing that was 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:40.559 evident to us is we we filmed some influencers doing 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.520 certain things, and and behind the scenes, they you know, 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.640 they hated the trip they were on, they hated the 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:47.880 hotel they were at, they thought the food was awful, 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.240 but they still posted it lying saying that they loved it, 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.720 because if they were honest, they wouldn't get invited back, 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:55.800 or they wouldn't get invited to the next thing. And 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:57.920 I think that that's what people really have to realize. 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.680 When you're scrolling through your phone and you're seeing these 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:04.960 people live the so called wonderful life, the reality is 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.839 they're only showing you the peak peak highlights, and even 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.640 that is fake and exaggerated. But from a marketing perspective, 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:15.200 this must work because it is working for brands and 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.280 companies to send these influencers these things, and there is 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.480 a return on investment, else they wouldn't be doing it right. No, Well, 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.079 that's the thing, it's not. The thing is that they're 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:28.800 they're throwing. It works sometimes for these American companies and 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.760 these brands, but it doesn't work most times, and the 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.319 marketing companies don't know which ones are going to work 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.439 and which ones are not, so they just throw all 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.040 the spaghetti against the wall and hope and the best 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.600 and really for them. You know, you could buy a 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.560 a TV spot on the Super Bowl, you know, and 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:47.920 I don't know what it costs. You gave millions and 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.959 millions of dollars, or you can you can say, oh, 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.679 we're going to work with fifty influencers or a hundred 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.319 influences for the same amount of money. One of them 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:58.600 may may get that reach, and so I think that 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.240 they don't. But it does not work in the respect 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.679 of the way most people think it does. Nick. You 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.800 did talk with our own Bloomberg News reporter, Sarah Fryar. 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.480 She's our tech reporter, one of our tech reporters. She's 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:12.880 written a book, No Filter, The Inside Story of Instagram, 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:15.640 And I talked with her too before our interview, and she, 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.120 you know, she'd never having a conversation. She brought up 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.000 a good point. She goes, why has nobody done something, 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.360 you know, or who should do something about all of 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:25.320 this fakery on Instagram. You know, the fact that you, Nick, 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.719 were able to buy all these followers and all this 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.760 engagement for these regular people and make them look famous, 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.600 get them brand deals. Is this on the companies? Is 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:38.199 it on the FTC? I mean, what do we do well? 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:39.880 I think that the you know, when it comes down 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:42.240 to it, the people that are most of fault here 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:47.360 beyond far and away are the technology companies. Um, it 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:49.680 is not in their interests in Saraces is in the 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.640 film and um this is said the buss Sarah and 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.160 I have reported in the past, it's not in their 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:59.400 interest to to make sure that they they fix this. 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.560 You know, Instagram supposedly has a billion users, right and 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.240 based on the experts we spoke to and bought dealers 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:11.000 and things like that, you could you know, it's it's 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.000 feasible that there are around half of the of the 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.600 accounts on Instagram are fake or debt accounts or whatever. 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.280 But Instagram has no incentive to get rid of those 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:22.760 fake accounts because if they did, they wouldn't have a 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:24.800 billion users. And if they didn't have a billion users, 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:29.040 Facebook stock isn't worth what Facebook stock is. Advertisers don't 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.199 think that they're the value for what they're paying is 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.000 worth what it is, and so they don't do anything 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:35.320 to get rid of it. And I think the other 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:40.080 aspect of it is that Instagram makes sure that the 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.840 likes and the comments and the number of follows you 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.400 have and all those little metrics that give people so 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.560 much anxiety that they are so high up on the 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.680 scale of things that you see. And I think that 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:53.760 that is one aspect of the film that we really 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.600 talk about. Two is it's how it's leading to anxiety 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.520 for kids and depression and so on and so forth. 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:02.079 And Instagram does care one iota. All they care about 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.160 is the metrics. It's like a constant like popularity, race, 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:09.600 um and right, and like we talked about it here, 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.559 you know news like you know our followers and are 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:14.959 you mentioned? And it's it's it's crazy and you think 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:17.920 about on a younger but you think about on a 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.080 younger population, right, Like what this does to these kids? 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:22.840 So I just want to go follow up on what 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:24.800 you just said. I think I know the answer. So 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:28.239 the valuations of these companies, whether it's Facebook, whether it's Instagram. 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.920 Within Facebook, you know their user numbers, the metrics they 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.560 are giving advertisers, is it all based on totally fake data? 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.440 And does it even matter if they are because does 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:42.040 the ecosystem kind of work? I mean, the eCos it's 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:46.280 funny the ecosystem, the system works. It really truly does. 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:49.520 I mean it's funny. Like on Instagram, I get get 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.280 ads that are sent to me that I'm like, oh, 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.080 actually I would click on that. I mean, I won't 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.480 out of principle because I don't want to give them 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:00.400 the money. But but you know, the targeting works. There's 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.720 a reason that Google and Facebook are value to what 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.880 their value that simply based on advertising. So it does work. 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.000 But I think that the reality is is that there 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.560 is an incredible amount of deception going on at the 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.880 same time from these companies. And I think that and 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.360 they're fully aware of it. You know. It's like you 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:22.880 think about the advertising. You know, you can say I 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:27.160 want to advertise a pink bicycle to people who like 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.160 pink and live in in this town. Uh, and the 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.840 you know, wake up at six am and drink green juices, 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.760 and you can do that. You can literally target that 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.960 person and they'll probably click on your bike and buy it. 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.320 But so if they if they have the technology and 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:45.760 the and the smarts to be able to pull out off, 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:47.800 they also have the technology and the smarts to be 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.080 able to kill the box. But they don't because it's 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.920 not in their best interests because if they had to 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.280 be honest, they would probably have half the number of 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.640 users that they really have. And what's that going to 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.720 do for the stock price? Right? Nick? You, you, by 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.800 your own admission, have have been covering these companies for 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:10.600 about fifteen years. Facebook just had its its seventeenth birthday. Um. 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.800 You open up the film with this sort of montage 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.520 of of you appearing on different television programs, saying that 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:19.240 you used to be the one who would go on 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:23.800 TV and defend these social platforms. It does seem like though, 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.920 in recent years, with fake news proliferating on Facebook and 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.800 you know, fake news and bad things happening on Twitter, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.720 and then of course the rise of the influencer and 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.720 the mental health issues that are associated with Instagram, it 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.080 does seem like the conversation around social media has really shifted. 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:42.640 It from it being a tool that, you know, in 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:44.800 the words of Mark Zuckerberg, right, is about connecting and 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.400 sharing two more that that's one about, you know, the 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.160 effect that these platforms are having on our lives and 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.320 in not a good way. When did that shift happen 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.720 for you? When did you start to see that happening. 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.360 So I think it's it's a great question. And I 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.000 think you know, one thing I've noticed is, you know, 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:06.119 the technology people, both reporters and people who work in 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.680 tech and so on, who I know, on a personal level, 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.680 we were kind of old the nerds, if you will, 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:15.760 that got on these platforms first. You know, we were 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.280 the first ones on Instagram and Snapchat and Twitter, and 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.560 and I think in those early days, what was so 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.200 intriguing about them was that they were what they said 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:26.119 they were going to be. They were a place for 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.440 you to connect and share things and and and take 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.679 pretty photos and just have have a you know, and 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.040 people could comment on them. And I think what happened 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:39.919 is over time they started to become the worst versions 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.719 of themselves. And you know, Twitter, I think is just 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:45.640 I mean, I used to be on their twelve hours 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:47.280 a day, would be in the background in the news 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.639 room when I was working. I was constantly tweeting links 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:52.639 and articles and comments and thoughts and this, that and 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.240 the other. I barely look at it now because it's 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.119 so the triolic. It's got so much hatred and anger 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.240 on there, and and you can be you can see 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.080 your career destroyed by for one tweet because someone doesn't 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.880 like it. And I think that, um, you know, all 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:11.199 across the board, these platforms have grown so quickly and 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:14.480 so so big that the and the companies haven't put 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.440 the effort forth to try to control them and try 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:19.560 to make them, you know, work in the same way 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.880 they did in the beginning. That um, that they are 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:25.960 now in the place that they are. And and and 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:28.199 for me and all those early people to bring this 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.639 back to what I say earlier, all those early nerves 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.120 that start signed up, none of them use them anymore. 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.200 None of them people who used to work on Twitter, 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.840 I know who built the platform do not use it. 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.359 And I think that that the reason for that is 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:44.160 because it has become it's become such a bad thing 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.800 in society. It has become so negative and and I 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:48.680 think that people are fed up. Well, I should say, 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:50.520 you did write the book Hatching Twitter. You wrote the 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:52.000 book on Twitter, so you do know a thing or 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.919 two of them the early days of Twitter. Yes, well, 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.600 And I would say, though, social influencers can also be good. 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:00.800 And you point this out, whether it's Black Lives Matter, 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.600 whether it's me Too, whether it's climate change, whether it's 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:08.000 the Arab Spring right, it can be a force for good. 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.400 It can be. But I think that here and there's 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:12.480 no question if it was you know, if it wasn't 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.679 for I mean, look, I can't say this definitively, but 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:19.600 I guess the question is, would me to have happened 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.960 if it wasn't for social media? Would Black Lives Matter 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:23.919 have happened if it wasn't for social media? There are 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.160 certain people who say, well, black lives matter, for example, 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.040 you know, in the nineties sixties we had the civil 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.600 rights movement that was no social media then, right, so 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.240 that you know that, that's one argument some people make. 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:39.119 I don't know if the answer is true or if 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:42.199 it's not. I don't necessarily think me too would have 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.040 happened if it wasn't for it. And I think that 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.919 you know, there are and the climate change stuff that's happening, 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.960 and and and so on. I think that the reality 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:55.280 is though that you know that Kevin Kelly, who started Wired, 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:59.800 he's a technology philosopher, if you will, and he said 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:01.440 to at one point he said, look, when you look 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.719 at technology, it makes there are always bad sides to it. 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:09.280 In his opinion, technology makes society fifty one better and 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.600