WEBVTT - TV | RUSSIAN AGGRESSION 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.039 Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine came as a shock 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:13.920 to people around the world, but historically speaking, it's nothing new. 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.680 Under Soviet leadership and now Vladimir Putin, Russia has frequently 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.440 terrorized and invaded sovereign states, violently attempting to force its 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:24.240 will on neighboring countries and countries all over the world. 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:26.560 On this special edition of Hold the Line will take 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:31.720 a look at Russia's history of aggression from Afghanistan to Ukraine. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:39.200 Welcome to the special edition of Hold the Line. I'm 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:45.080 Buck Sexton. Look, the Russians are not new to military incursion, 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:50.000 invasion of other sovereign countries. We understand that this is 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.520 something they've done numerous times. They've gone into Georgia, They've 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:57.400 already taken Crimea and much of the Donbass region of 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:02.560 eastern Ukraine. They've also had a military intervention in Syria 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:06.200 on behalf of the Assad regime. They've gone into Afghanistan 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.199 back in the end of the Soviet era as well. 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:11.840 You'd think they might have learned a very painful and 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.839 high casualty lesson from that, but it turns out their 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:19.559 imperial ambitions continued even after the fall of the Berlin Wall. 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.839 Let's take a look at current NATO nations and Russia 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:25.920 to get a sense of where we stand here. As 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:31.120 you can see, Russia still views itself as under threat 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:35.520 from NATO and therefore wants to expand territorially and also 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.639 in terms of its military and economic influence in ways 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:43.440 to counter what's happening here. Counter the NATO alliance that 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:48.680 is arrayed was arrayed against the Soviet Union. Back in February, 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:51.360 Putin gave a speech in which he talked about the 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:55.160 current situation that's underway here. He said, for thirty years, 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.720 we have persistently and patiently tried to reach an agreement 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.200 with the leading natokas the principles of equal and inviolable 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:06.160 security in Europe. In response to our proposals, we constantly 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.520 face either cynical deception and lies, or attempts to pressure 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.880 and blackmail. While NATO, despite all our protests and concerns, 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.280 continues to steadily expand. The war machine is moving and 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:20.800 I repeat, is coming close to our borders. So here's 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.919 Putin trying to explain that he viewsed this, believe it 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.560 or not. He views offensive measures such as what we're 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.280 seeing right now in Ukraine with the war there, but 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:34.040 also previous offensive measures, whether it's taking the Crimea and 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.240 the Dawn Boss region, the separatist area of Eastern Ukraine, 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.520 Russian backed separatism of course, and also South Ossetia and 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:46.000 Abkhazia in Georgia. He views all of those maneuvers as 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:51.000 defensive in nature because they are against the NATO alliance. 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:56.040 So this is also how he justifies military incursion military 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.360 aggression against countries with which he is not at war. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.040 Putin is claiming and has claimed, including in his speech 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.919 in February, that the West took Ukraine hostage. What is 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:08.120 happening today, he said, does not come out of a 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.959 desire to infringe on the interests of Ukraine and the 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.000 Ukrainian people. It is related to the protection of Russia 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.880 itself from those who took Ukraine hostage and are trying 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.720 to use it against our country and its people. This 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.519 is fashionating. This is quite a reversal, isn't it. Here 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.320 you have someone who has engaged in multiple acts of 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:31.480 aggression against military aggression against neighboring countries and does send 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.760 troops around the world when he decides as necessary, including 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:39.440 to Syria, in order to expand Russian influence at the 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:43.040 expense of other countries in the region, at the expense 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:47.120 of movements determined to either out's dictators or achieved freedom, 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.200 or any number of things. He thinks that whether it's 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:54.040 the incursion into Czechnia, which the Russians engaged in under 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:59.320 Putin's Putin's leadership, or the various Russian incursions into neighboring 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:04.000 territory Georgia and Ukraine, most notably, that this is fine, 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.880 that this is actually defensive in nature, because Russia has 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:11.080 to stand up for itself and its allies. Quite a 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.800 an experience of reverse psychology here. Putin, By the way, 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.560 I also told the West not to intervene in Ukraine, 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.160 and said to anyone who would consider interfering from the outside, 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.560 if you do, you will face consequences greater than any 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.560 you have faced in history. All the relevant decisions have 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.880 been taken. I hope you hear me. I mean he 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:34.839 is threatening, certainly major military reprisals against any Western country 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.960 that would try to stop this madness in Ukraine. But 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:42.159 also in the background, many say he's essentially brandishing his 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:46.760 nuclear arsenal in order to back up the military aggression 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:50.080 that he has engaged in in Ukraine. Where is all 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:53.120 of this heading. Well, we've certainly seen that Russia has 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:57.839 used previous invasions as a testing ground for both tactics 0:04:57.839 --> 0:04:59.840 and the response from NATO and the West and the 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.280 international community. So what can we learn from those previous 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:09.159 military military decisions that Russia has made to go into 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.360 foreign countries? Does that give us some template, some insight 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:16.000 into where this conflict in Ukraine is headed. That's what 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.720 we're going to address tonight in this special We've got 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.040 a great lineup of experts to give us insight into 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.800 Russia's aggressive military policies. Coming up. It was called the 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:29.400 Soviet Union's Vietnam Moscow's nineteen seventy nine invasion of Afghanistan 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.240 was devastating and devastating for the Afghan people, but it 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.280 might also have been the final nail in the coffin 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.400 of the Soviet Empire. What do we learn from this? 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:53.840 Stay with us. On December twenty fourth, nineteen seventy nine, 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.919 the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. That invasion kicked off a 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.479 brutal decade of warfare that would ultimately call as many 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.600 as two million lives. According to some estimates, conflict would 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.479 also mark the last major military operation of the Soviet Union, 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:09.160 which felt less than three years after the war ended. 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.719 During Now for a closer look at the Soviet invasion 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.119 of Afghanistan, as the director of the Heritage Foundation Center 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.880 from National Defense, retired Army Lieutenant General Tom Sport. Tom, 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.520 thanks for being with us, Thanks for having me, bug. Okay, 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.920 So let's just understand first what was the decision making process, 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:27.800 and given what we're seeing right now with Putin in Ukraine, 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.719 might be helpful understand the calculations at the time of 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:35.039 the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, what led up to what 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:39.320 were they trying to achieve? Yeah, and so Afghanistan had 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.400 had a Marxist communist puppet regime if you will, for 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.520 a couple of years prior to their invasion, but that 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.719 regime was kind of under pressure from the Islamist in 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.040 Afghanistan and they were actually losing that war. And so 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.000 the Soviet Union under that Secretary Braznev starting to get 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.159 the sense that Afghanistan was going to collapse. And was 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.680 that that reading of what was going on in Afghanistan 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.200 that ultimately caused them to choose to intervene in Afghanistan? 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.080 How did it go in the early phase as the 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:16.000 Soviets ramped up military operations there against the Afghan resistance, 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.160 they clearly had air superiority. I mean, how did the 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.760 military operations look in the early phase of what turned 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.480 into a decade long war. Yeah, the Soviets had initially 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.440 a great success. I guess you would say they dropped 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:33.120 airborne troops right into the capital Kabul. They were successful 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.520 and finding the guy that was acting as president at 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.640 the time and essentially neutralizing him, taking the reins of power, 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:44.160 and then capturing the major cities of Afghanistan. So you 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:49.440 think Kandahar and others, those fell relatively quickly to the Soviets, 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.520 unlike you know what we are seeing in the Ukraine today. 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.240 And so I think you'd have to say that the 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.640 first few months the Soviets had to been happy with 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:01.560 how things went. Now, what were some of the changing 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:03.840 the tipping points, if you will, or some of the 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:08.960 momentum shifts that occurred with the Mujahadeen And why was 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.240 it that the course of this conflict sort of to 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:15.520 turn against the Soviets. Yeah, the Mushadean even before the 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.000 Soviets got there were a powerful fighting force. That's you know, 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:21.360 that is what they do, that's their history. And so 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.960 they were never a cohesive one group of Muhadeen. They 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.239 were multiple war lords, but they kind of coalesced, and frankly, 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:33.000 the Soviet invasion of their country really kind of made 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.680 them have a common enemy that they all gathered around. 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:41.200 And there were at least eighty eight hundred different Muhahadeen 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.320 bases that they worked out of the support of multiple nations, 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:50.280 including the United States, the UK, Pakistan, and surprisingly enough 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:54.320 even at the time, China helped keep the Muhadeen supplied 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.720 and they became over time a more and more effective force, 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:03.000 employing famously Stinger missiles to bring down Soviet hind helicopters 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:07.720 and the like. So the changing of the advantage that 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:12.000 the Soviets had from the air specifically, that was I mean, 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.120 this is known to most people as it's depicted in 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.520 the movie Charlie Wilson's War, right that that was actually 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:22.480 a major tactical shift then away from the complete air 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:26.720 dominance superiority of the Soviets had had because of those Stingers. Yeah, 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.480 that and plus the Muhadeen really controlled the countryside. So 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.840 the Soviets kept and held the major cities, they really 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:38.160 never lost any of them to the Muchadeen. But the countryside, 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:42.120 the roads, the connecting roads, those are really under the 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.360 Muhadein's control. And so in a situation like that, you 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:49.000 can never really consolidate power if you only can venture 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.280 out of the city's in limited situations. So there was 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.840 almost from the start the Soviets were in trouble in 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.920 that invasion. What was the political calculation like for the 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.440 Soviets towards towards the end of it too, It was 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:06.640 it just purely casualties in a sense that the military 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.959 wasn't going to accomplish the mission of installing a communist 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.360 puppet regime in Cobble. I mean, what brought about the 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.800 end of the conflict, Yeah, a realization that they were 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.479 not winning. They were just it was just a stalemate. 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.320 They had a change of leadership. Corbetchov came in, you know, 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.840 widely viewed as a reformist kind of leader for the 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.240 Soviet Union. He could see that they were spending billions 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:33.640 of rubles, had spent thousands of lives, and really had 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.920 nothing to show for it, and so like in other areas, 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:40.679 Corbetchov decided to reduce their losses in that area and 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.120 started the withdrawal, I want to say, in around nineteen 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:48.400 eighty seven and it ended in nineteen eighty nine. Did 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.040 you give us a sense of the kind of suppression 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.600 tactics and the level of brutality that the Soviets willing 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:59.800 to engage into in military parliamce perhaps pacify to two 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:04.400 oppress the resistance in Afghanistan? We know there was a 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.920 very high civilian casualty account. What were the tactics that 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.280 the Soviets used, What kind of of tactics and maneuvers 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.120 were they deploying? And the Soviets used what are widely 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.400 recognized as war crimes to kind of suppress the Afghans. 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:22.240 So they slaughtered entire villages that had, you know, had 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.960 the temerity to fight back against the Soviets. They raped 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:35.000 the women of Afghanistan, they killed millions of Afghans, bombed schools, churches, hospitals, 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.360 and so really the sky is the limit when you 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.320 when you want to think about what went on in 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:41.400 Afghanistan and what they did to the poor people of 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:44.720 that country. Still unable to break the back of the 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.480 resistance though, as we know, and the Soviets had an 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.920 ignominious withdrawal at the end of this. Some say that 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:55.480 the ultimate collapse of the Soviet Union, if not triggered by, 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:59.559 was hastened at least by this failed war, this failed 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.640 military invasion of Afghanistan. What do you say to that. 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:04.959 I think that's very true. And so, you know, we 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:07.920 think about the big moments, you know, Ronald Reagan saying, 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.160 mister Gorbachev, tear this wall down, and we think about 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:13.840 the Star Wars initiative. I think you have to put 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.719 the war in Afghanistan and their failure there and all 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.800 the millions of dollars of rubles they spent there that 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.640 really I think helped to bring down that evil regime. 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.959 And as we look today at the situation in Ukraine, 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.440 do you feel that there are lessons learned from the 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:34.600 international community and from the Western Powers about what happened 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:36.959 to the Soviets in Afghanistan and what should be applied 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:41.120 now to Ukraine. Yeah, I think there's a lot of lessons. 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:43.400 There's a lot of similarities, I mean, and there's a 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.560 lot of differences to the Soviets thought they were going 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.480 to have great I think initial success in the Ukraine 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:50.920 and underestimated the resistance there. And you can see the 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:54.080 same thing playing out again in the Ukraine now, and 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:58.480 so I think that it's hard for the Ukrainian people. 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.719 I think making a difference. We can't see it now 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.200 because we're so close to the conflict. Now, as we 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.319 zoom back and as we see this maybe from a 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.160 little bit more distance, I think we're going to see 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.800 that their bravery is going to make a huge difference. Tenant, Colonel, 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:14.480 thanks so much for being with us. We appreciate it, sir, 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:19.000 Thank you, sir. In nineteen ninety two, a small territory 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.960 known as chechney And declared its independence from the Russian Federation, 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.320 a move that would lead to two brutal wars with 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.320 Russia and cost thousands of lives. When we come back, 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:29.880 Jim Brooke of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.240 joins us to give his insight into the Chechen Wars. 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:49.000 Stay with us. A year after the fall of a 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:52.840 Soviet Union, Chechen, a small territory in Russia's southwestern region, 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.600 declared independence from the Russian Federation. Unlike other republics. At 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:00.560 the time, Chechny's independence was rejected by Moscow and would 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.160 spark two wars. Of the course of the next decade 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.360 and a half. Chechen separatists waged a brutal guerrilla war 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.520 against Russian forces, and the wars would ultimately cost tens 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.520 of thousands of Russian and Chechen lives. Join me now 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.840 is Russia Ukraine. Fellow at the Foundation for Defensive Democracies 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.560 and former Moscow bureau chief for Bloomberg Jim Brook. Jim, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.160 thanks for being with us. Thank you so, John. Let's 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.720 start with the first Chechen War, which started in nineteen 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:30.360 ninety four. What's the background on this and why, for example, 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:32.920 wouldn't the Russians after the fall of the Soviet Union 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:37.240 allow cheching us a seed like other territories. Head well, 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:41.440 Chession is an overwhelmingly Muslim population, a long history of 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:47.240 mountain guerrillas, fierce fighters, and the Russians are afraid of 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.320 letting Chessnion go because there's a whole swath in Russia. 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:53.440 It could cut the country and a half that is 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:58.240 Muslim tartistown, but shorts a stand some of the little 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:02.040 stands there They happen to be called they're on the Volga, 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:06.440 and they could literally cut Russia in half. So first 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.480 Yeltsen then Putin wanted to send a very clear message 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:15.440 to the other Islamic majority republics which are inside Russia 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.480 that they were not going to get independence and the 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.640 country would not be cut in half. And so how 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.560 did hostilities begin and what was the so that the 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:27.280 Russians went in under what pretext into Chechi in nineteen 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:31.720 ninety four obviously to stop the stop the secession movement there, 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.240 But how how was it in the early days. Obviously 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.440 we're looking at the situation Ukraine now trying to figure 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.280 out if there are any parallels or you know, strategic 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:44.680 comparisons in dral Yeah, and your video shows terrible parallels. 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:49.400 It was basically scorched earth. It started off with the 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.200 ethnic Chechen members of the Red Army basically formed their 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:56.800 own army and took their own weapons with them, and 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.960 there was a Chech in general who became president. They 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.920 launched their own war genocide against ethnic Russians, and they 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:11.320 fought Russia into a stalemate. They got independence recognized by 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.520 virtually nobody. And that brings up to about nineteen ninety 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.680 nine two thousand, when Putin was up for the presidency. 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:24.440 Then things get very sinister. There were three apartment bombings 0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:29.400 in the Russian part of Russia which killed hundreds of people, 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:34.960 and the third one they discovered some FSB which is 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:40.040 the later KGB operatives, basically piling fertilizer into the basement 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:44.320 of a building. These men were detained arrested. But the 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:50.440 thinking is that Putin and his FSB cohorts planned these 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.360 terrible apartment bombings, I say, killed hundreds of people to 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:59.720 rally the country behind him and his tough policies. With Chechia. 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.080 I was sort of in and out of Russia around 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.200 that time. By the time I got there, which is 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.280 two thousand and six, the war was still going on. 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:13.240 And I visited Chesnia Grosny the capitol, in twenty twelve, 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.639 and it was like a disneyland. It was everything was cute. 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.400 Avery's rebuilt. There was even a toy Orthodox church. He 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:25.320 had leveled Grosny, the capital of Chechia. It looked like Stalingrad. 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.680 It had been totally leveled, and then when he got 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:32.119 control again of Chesnia, he rebuilt it. So that's a 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:36.160 scary parallel that he basically destroyed the capitol and destroyed 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.719 this so called country in order to keep it inside 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:44.120 underneath the Russian umbrella. How did I know? There were 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.120 two Chechen conflicts, and we're trying to give at least 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.960 some background here on both of them. Everybody watching the 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:56.400 first Chechen War ended, how and why? The church first 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.040 Chester War ended basically with a victory of the guerrillas, 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:06.040 and Yelson drudgingly kind of gave up, and the gorillas 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.919 announced a independent nation which is recognized by virtually nobody, 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.240 and that lasted for two or three years, and then 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.080 the socially when Putin came back, the Russian side to 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:23.360 have another go at it and used even tougher strategies, 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:28.280 including essentially carpet bombing, really destroying the city. So so 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.000 that would be the second, the second conflict. So let's 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:35.639 say that the first, the first Chechen incursion into Chechen fails. 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.399 Yelson says, all right, and there's a something of a 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.320 day facto independence for chech being during that period, as 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.720 you say, doesn't get everybody to actually recognize in the 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:49.400 international scene. Then Putin takes charge and nineteen ninety nine 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:54.400 again in nineteen ninety nine, they roll in and different tactics. 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:59.000 What's what's the approach? Well, as I said, it scores 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.440 to earth. Now, the Chechens had a lot of Saudi 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.119 Jahadist money, so they were not orphans. Let's say on 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:10.159 the international scene, they had money and weapons. And I 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:14.120 think one of the Saudi kings threatened several years ago. 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.119 You know, we can turn Cheching it back on a 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:22.840 centister threat. But to answer your question, bouten one control 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:29.880 of Chechi through very vicious brutal methods scored short. I said, 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:35.919 heavy bombing, tons of civilians were killed and basically batted 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.520 them into submission. And when I moved to Moscow in 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.720 two thousand and six, it went on for several more years. 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:45.240 But there was a huge amount of sensitivity in Russia too, 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.680 dead soldiers coming back, and there are these committees and 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:54.200 mothers of soldiers and the burials were hidden, and they 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.520 really did not want to repeat of Afghanistan, although they 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:02.240 they lost thousands of men in Chess by all accounts. 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:07.159 So there are reports right now that there are specific 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:14.240 Chechen fighters men loyal to catterall right, the authority character 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.480 leader of Czechnia that they're going to be fighting that 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:19.280 they are fighting in Ukraine. What can you tell us 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:24.400 about that? Well, they're apparently Chechens on both sides. Chechens 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:31.399 are very brutal fighters. Their national sport is wrestling. They 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.920 really enjoy fighting. They're natural born fighters, knife fighters, gun fighters. 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:41.800 And the Chechens who lost the war against Putin have 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:45.119 either been an exile in Europe or elsewhere and they've 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:49.439 come back to join the Ukrainians. So the Ukrainian government 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:51.760 has a few Chechens on their side, and then the 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:57.240 Russian government has said sent Chechens into Ukraine, reportedly to 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:01.959 assassinate President Zelenski. And we know the Chechens have been 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:06.080 in the Russian controlled parts of southeastern Ukraine since twenty fourteen. 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:11.080 Oh further ago, I don't know. There's a very interesting memorial. 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:16.640 The World War Two Museum in Kiev has a section 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:20.919 to the foreign volunteers Chechens and Georgians who come to 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:24.600 fight in Ukraine against the Russians. So this is not 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:31.240 totally new that men Chechen and Georgian men looking for 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.000 a chance to shoot Russians would go to Ukraine. Jim, 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:35.639 we want to come back in a second here and 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:39.080 talk about Georgia. Stay with us if you would please, 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.800 because back in two thousand and eight, Vladimir Putin invaded 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:45.160 the Republic of Georgia using a lot of the same 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:48.320 pretexts we're seeing here in Ukraine present day. When we 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:50.879 come back, we'll be rejoined by Jim Brooke, who's going 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.720 to give insight on the Russo Georgian War and how 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:56.520 some of those tactics are being replayed right now in Ukraine. 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:15.160 Stay with us. Many consider it the first European war 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:17.080 of the twenty first century. In two thousand and eight, 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.240 Russia invaded the Republic of Georgia, a former Soviet state 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:23.520 which had achieved independence in nineteen ninety one. The war 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:26.160 would only last two weeks and had ended with Russia's 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:29.800 recognition of two regions in Georgia as independent of Khazia 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.800 and South Ossetia. Although these two areas are not internationally recognized, 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:37.280 they become de facto countries closely aligned with Russia, and 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.720 outcome many believe Vladimir Putin wants to repeat in Ukraine. 0:22:41.119 --> 0:22:43.680 Joining once again is Russia. Ukraine fellow at the Foundation 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:47.159 for Defensive Democracies and former Moscow Bureau chief for Bloomberg 0:22:47.400 --> 0:22:51.119 Jim Brooke, Jim, thanks so much, Thank you buy And 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.560 I was also the VA Voice American bureau chief in Moscow, 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:59.160 which brought me to places like Georgia and Grosne, which 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:02.760 you just mentioned. Indeed, so the Russian invasion of Georgia 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:06.080 Gym is seen by many today as the most analogous 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:09.000 to Putin's invasion of Ukraine on a number of levels. 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:12.240 Could he just walk us through what was the pretext 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:15.240 for Russia's invasion of Georgia. What were the factors at 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:19.760 play right before and in the run up to this, Yeah, Black, 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:22.720 very good question. I was in George of the first 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:26.720 week of the war, just almost by accident, and then 0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:28.480 in the fag of war we really didn't know what 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:32.480 was going on. But now journalists and historians have put 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:36.639 together the TikTok the timeline. What happened was that George W. 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:39.840 Bush went to the NATO summit in Bucharest in April 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:45.160 and strongly urged Europe to accept Georgia and Ukraine as 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:48.040 members of NATO. The Germans, of the French and the 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:50.600 Brits kind of pushed the whole thing off until December. 0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:56.359 The Russians got very alarmed and we now know within 0:23:56.400 --> 0:23:59.840 a week started drawing up a plan to invade Georgia. 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:04.879 The same time the Russian Duma, as president putin to 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:08.760 recognize these two separatist areas of separate republics. I bring 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:13.280 this up because all this happened again with Ukraine. Then 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:17.399 the Russian railroad troops. When Animajazia reinforced the railroad, which 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:21.040 and where the Russian railroad troops go, soldiers followed, so 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:25.760 people should have drawn connections there. Then there were two 0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:30.560 weeks of maneuvers just north of the Georgian border. And 0:24:30.640 --> 0:24:33.480 when the maneuvers are over, they left behind a thousand 0:24:33.520 --> 0:24:36.120 pieces of equipment. They did not go home. I'm talking 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:40.000 about armored personnel carriers, tank trucks, chiefs, the sort of thing. 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:43.960 That weekend, and when I was in Georgia that weekend, 0:24:44.680 --> 0:24:51.760 they started to accuse, accused George of genocide, and they 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:56.120 started to evacuate civilians from South Assetia. And I saw 0:24:56.160 --> 0:24:59.920 these hysterical reports out of South Assetia by Russian correspond 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:03.600 So they were loading women and children on buses and 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:07.560 sending them up into the safety of Russia. This is 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:11.120 exactly what happened in the last two weeks with Ukraine, 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:16.040 there was the Duma asked Boutin to recognize the separatist 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:21.240 republics as independent nations. There were maneuvers, the equipment did 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:26.720 not go home. Boutin accused Georgia, accused Ukraine of genocide, 0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:32.520 and the civilians were evacuated. Then, in the case of Georgia, 0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:37.720 back in August twenty eight, two eight, there's a lot 0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:42.040 of cross border shelling, light across line shelling, and that 0:25:42.119 --> 0:25:45.199 was so the warm up. In that case, the president 0:25:45.200 --> 0:25:48.840 of Georgia, Mihail Sakshavili, fell for the bait and he 0:25:48.840 --> 0:25:52.600