1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: and I'm Kristin, And today Kristen and I are are 4 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: jumping on a pop culture train. We are going to 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: talk about sociopaths today because the movie Gone Girl is 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: hitting theaters October three, and spoiler alert listeners, one of 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: the main characters in that movie, well also in the book, 8 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: can be considered a sociopath. And so this led us 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: to read all sorts of fascinating things about sociopathy, but 10 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 1: also sociopathy gender and our fascination with women who are 11 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: called sociopaths. That's right, So all aboard the sociopathy express everybody, 12 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: and the trains pulling out of the station. But it 13 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: is pulling out the station in the nineteen fifties, how 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: about that for a smooth transportation related transition to nineteen 15 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: fifty two, when the first d s M or Diagnostic 16 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: Statistical Manual, the so called psychologist Psychiatrist Bible, comes out 17 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:25,279 Speaker 1: and it mentions personality disorders and personality disorders were generally 18 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: viewed as deficit conditions reflecting partial developmental arrests or distortions 19 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: in development secondary to inadequate or pathological early caretaking. How 20 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: about that for some jargon ey jargon jargon, right, And 21 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: what's interesting about the earliest definition of personality disorders and 22 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: sociopathy is that it's very fluid. We are definition of 23 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: sociopathy has changed to the point where really today's psychologists 24 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: and psychiatrists don't rely too heavily on that term at all. 25 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: Sociopathy and psychopathy both fall under these things called personality 26 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: disorders UM and sociopathic Personality disturbance was in the n 27 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: D s M one of three personality disorder subtypes, and 28 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: it reflected what at the time were considered different types 29 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: of social deviance, which definitely don't apply anymore. Things like 30 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: just sexual deviation you were considered a sociopath. Addiction you 31 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: were also considered a sociopath, and then that was further 32 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: subcategorized into alcoholism and drug addiction. And we have completely 33 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: moved away from that definition and those subcategories in particular, 34 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: but the whole tie into early caregiving triggers for sociopathy 35 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: that is still sort of part of the general definition. Yeah, 36 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: that caregiving trigger is a really important distinction between sociopathy 37 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: and psychopathy because today it's Caroline mentioned clinicians don't necessarily 38 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: lay bull many people as sociopaths, but rather, according to 39 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: the terms of the d s M five would talk 40 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: more about people having antisocial personality disorders. And while there's 41 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: still a lot of disagreement about what the distinct differences 42 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: or if there are in fact distinct differences between psychopaths 43 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: and sociopaths, some think that sociopaths are the product of 44 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: nurture i e. Those caregiving triggers, whereas psychopaths are more 45 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: the product of nature, of being born with that kind 46 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: of deviance, right exactly, which is pretty scary to think 47 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: about either way. Um So, Donald Black, who's a psychiatry 48 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: professor and author of the book Bad Boys, Bad Men 49 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: Confronting Antisocial Personality Disorder parentheses, sociopathy calls anti social personality 50 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: disorders recurrent and serial patterns of misbeah behavior that involves 51 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: significant facets of life, and it's marked by violation of 52 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: social norms and regulations that occur over time, and it 53 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: can range, he says, from things like just lying, pathological 54 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: lying all the way up to petty theft, violence and 55 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: even murder, and basically to give you a rundown. People 56 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: with antisocial personality disorders lack empathy and a conscience and 57 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: really don't care about the rights of others. And so 58 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: if you extrapolate that, that can either apply to the 59 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: lying thing. I don't care about you or what you think. 60 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna lie to you all the way up 61 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: to murder. I don't care about you as a humans. 62 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to murder you. Yeah, I'm gonna just get 63 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: you out of my way. Uh. Statistically, antisocial personality disorder 64 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: is thought to affect four percent of the population, or 65 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: about one and twenty five people, and signs of it 66 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: excluding murder include things like disregard for right and wrong, 67 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: persistent lying, deceit, exploitation, a sense of superiority, and exhibitionism, 68 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: which might lead to difficulties with the law. It might 69 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: also manifest if they are parents, and things like child 70 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: abuse or neglect, and again and again, just different ways 71 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: of exhibiting that lack of empathy, whether it's through neglect 72 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: or through lying, or through breaking the law right. And 73 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: these signs generally show up in childhood but become fully 74 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: evident for most sociopaths UH during their twenties and thirties, 75 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: and so people argue, you know, we talked about issues 76 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: in childhood being a trigger, and uh, some researchers, this 77 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: is Donald Black in particular, would argue that it's sort 78 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: of a combination of both nature and nurture. Perhaps there 79 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: is a genetic component that makes you prone to this 80 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: type of personality disorder, but then life situations such as 81 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: child abuse or neglect could potentially trigger it. Yeah. So 82 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: different risk factors include things like family histories of personality 83 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: disorders or mental illness, being subjected to verbal, physical, or 84 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: sexual abuse during childhood, an unstable or chaotic upbringing, a 85 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: history of substance abuse in parents or other family members. 86 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: And when it comes to that diagnosis, we mentioned that 87 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: the symptoms start to emerge in adolescents a lot of times, 88 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: but a child will not be diagnosed necessarily with antisocial 89 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: personality disorder or certainly not be labeled a sociopath in 90 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: childhood because of that nurturing factor going on, and clinicians thinking, well, 91 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: they're still sort of developing who they are if we 92 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: label them this way, now, that might not be correct, right, Yeah, exactly, 93 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: I mean it would it would be unfortunate to label 94 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: a child as sociopath when maybe they're just you know, 95 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: poorly behaved. But conduct disorder in childhood are another big 96 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: sign they are definitely Studies have shown that conduct is 97 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: a serious conduct disorder. I'm not talking about a kid 98 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: who won't listen or won't mind. I mean like a 99 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: serious conduct disorder as a child is linked to being 100 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: a sociopath as an adult. But so we mentioned nature 101 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: versus nurture, and there was a really interesting story from 102 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: NPR that talked to neuroscientists James Fallon. I don't know 103 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: if people read this. I did. I had not heard 104 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: about this before, but I thought it was so interesting. 105 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: So neuroscientists James Fallon have been studying psychopaths for years, 106 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: looking at brain scan, studying the link between psychopathy, sociopathy, 107 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: and criminal behavior and prisoners um and he decided to 108 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: look at his own brain scan after talking to his mama, 109 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: and his mama said, we have some really interesting characters 110 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: in our family tree, a lot of like bad seeds. 111 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: And he went back and realized that he was descended 112 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: from not one, not to but several like murderers. Criminals 113 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: included Lizzie Borden. He is a relative of Lizzie Borden, 114 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: and so he's like, well, that's really weird because I 115 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: never feel like I want to kill anyone. So let 116 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: me look into this. And and for listeners unfamiliar with 117 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: who Lizzie Borden is, she is known for being the 118 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: child who killed her parents with an X with an ax. 119 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: Right she was acquitted though. Um So he had already 120 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: had a bunch of brain scans and blood samples and 121 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: stuff from his own family, because I guess if you're 122 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 1: related to a neuroscientist, you're just gonna get picked on 123 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: for research. Yeah, that's what you do with Thanksgiving dinner, right, Hey, 124 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: everybody get the m r. I'm machine. So he looked 125 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: at a bunch of scans, and he looked at his kids, 126 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: and they all look like a normal brain scan. He 127 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 1: looked at his mom's hers look normal. Fallon looks at 128 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: his own and he goes, h, he had absolutely low 129 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: activity in the orbital cortex, the front of the brain, 130 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: just like the psychopaths and sociopath criminals that he had 131 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: been studying. So he writes that people with low activity 132 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: in that section of the brain, the orbital cortex are 133 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: either free wheeling types or sociopaths. The orbital cortex essentially 134 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: serves to put a break on the amygdala, which is 135 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: involved in aggression. And in addition to that low activity 136 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: in the orbital cortex, there's something called the m ao 137 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: a gene also known as the warrior gene, which is 138 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: um an enzyme that regulates serotonin, and a lot of 139 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: scientists think that if you have a certain version of 140 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: this so called warrior gene, your brain won't respond to 141 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: the calming effects of serotonin. So psychopaths sociopaths are kind 142 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: of always primed to fight. This is one reason why 143 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: one hallmark of a sociopath is never learning their lesson. 144 00:09:58,040 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: You punish them, it doesn't matter, They're going to do 145 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: this same thing again because their brains are literally primed 146 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: for this. And yeah, and no conscience, and so he 147 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: points out. Fallon points out that the third piece of 148 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: the puzzle in terms of his research is child abuse 149 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: or violence, which can be a major trigger if those 150 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: other puzzle pieces are already there. So if you already 151 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: have low to no activity in your orbital cortex and 152 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: you also have this warrior gene, so you're primed to 153 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: fight or primed to be aggressive, if you already suffered 154 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: as a child, then that's like a perfect storm that 155 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: could set you on a path of being associate path. 156 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: He in the interview and his wife too were saying, well, 157 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: thank goodness, I had a great childhood, a great upbringing, 158 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: very loving family because oh boy, and his wife even 159 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: joked about it. His wife was like, well, I'm still here, 160 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: so everything that's fine. And it's such evidence that nature 161 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: in this instance is not destiny because you have this 162 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: perfectly well adjusted, successful neuroscientist who just happens to discover 163 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: that he has the brain of a psychopath. Right, but yeah, 164 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: and so he's his own very interesting case study as 165 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: to like, why am I not in prison and all 166 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: these other people are in prison for doing these terrible things. 167 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: I just didn't have some of the puzzle pieces well, 168 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: And because of that, that nurture puzzle piece, it is possible, 169 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: unlike what a lot of people think, it is possible 170 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: for sociopaths to be treated psychotherapy can possibly be affected. 171 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: The challenge, though, is that person wanting to have that 172 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: change happen, right, Because, as you might imagine a lot 173 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: of people who would be labeled sociopaths. I mean they 174 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: don't have a conscience, so they might and they have 175 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: a sense of superiority. Yeah, they see no need to change. Yeah, 176 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: what why would I need to change? It's all of 177 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: you people who out there who need to change, which 178 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: which some days, you know, when I'm being hard on myself, 179 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: that kind of a brain would be a nice, nice break, 180 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: like I'm fine, I'm totally fine here, it's the rest 181 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: of you. And when it keeps sitting on this scug 182 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: you're watching Netflix, Yeah, murdering. I think that's I think 183 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: that's something totally different. But that's just wanting a lazy 184 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: sunday you deserve. It doesn't inside into my brain. Ye. Well, 185 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: so we haven't talked about gender yet. Um, you know, 186 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: we talked about how about four percent of the population 187 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: could be qualified as having an antisocial personality disorder, But 188 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: so what about gender. Well, it turns out that there 189 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: is a massive gender gap when it comes to antisocial 190 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: personality disorder and people we think of as sociopaths because 191 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: very few of them are women. Out of about the 192 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: ten million sociopaths in the United States, only one and 193 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: a half million of them are women, and depending on 194 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: the particular population, men are two to eight times likelier 195 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: to have it. So what's going on with that on 196 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: the nature front, Well, some scientists think that it has 197 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: a lot to do with that warrior gene that I 198 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: just mentioned. Yeah, because the warrior gene is a variant 199 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: on the X chromosome, and men have just the one 200 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: X chromosome, which means that they're more sensitive to the 201 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: warrior genes effects and therefore more likely than women to 202 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: exhibit anti social behavior. And Donald Black, who is the 203 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: author of that book we sited earlier, Bad Boys, Bad Men, 204 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: offers another possible explanation in that the way that antisocial 205 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: personality disorders sociopathy, the way they manifest in people, could 206 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: also have something to do with gender norms that no 207 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: matter what we're feeling inside, even if you Kristen as 208 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: a woman, just as Rag as a man next to you, 209 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: that you might, because you're a woman, turn your anger inward, 210 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: while men generally stereoto typically tend to express it outwardly. 211 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: So perhaps women are acting out in less obvious ways, 212 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: which could then mean that women are simply less likely 213 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: to be diagnosed as associate bath. So you might not 214 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: go around like smashing storefronts and murdering people. Instead, I 215 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: just eat Jacklin and buy shoes. Caroline, I'm a monster, Seriously. 216 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: The we did find a few studies looking at how 217 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: generals might play into the diagnosis of personality disorders, because 218 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: you have borderline personality disorder being overwhelmingly diagnosed to women. 219 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: And we've actually side note, had a few stuff I've 220 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: never told you. Listeners request an episode on that, which 221 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: we can come back and do later on if folks 222 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: would like to hear about that. But we found one 223 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: study in the Journal of Personality Disorders in two thousand 224 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: two looking at this, and it examined whether established gender 225 00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: differences in the prevalence of normal personality trait could explain 226 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: the gender differences found in the prevalence of personality disorders. So, 227 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: in other words, how we are clinicians sitting there would assume, 228 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: for instance, talking about the anger inward outward would assume 229 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: that either a woman or a man sitting on a 230 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: couch across from them should be processing their emotions. Right. So, yes, 231 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: there are definitely stereotypical gender roles and expectations whether you're 232 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,479 Speaker 1: a man or a woman. But it's not just biological 233 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: sex that has stuff to do with this, it's also 234 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: gender roles and the way that you fit into the 235 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: spectrum as far as masculinity and femininity, not just your 236 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: biological sex. And so they found that, you know, as 237 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: you would expect anti social traits, those people with low 238 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: levels of agreeableness that was associated with masculinity, whereas men. 239 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: So it's still men, but men who are described as 240 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: feminine ended up exhibiting more features of all the personality 241 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: disorders they studied, except antisocial, whereas when it comes to 242 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: dependent traits which involve higher levels of agreeableness, were not 243 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: so surprisingly associated with higher femininity and lower masculinity. So 244 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: these studies aren't saying that all of these diagnoses are 245 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: totally bunk because all clinicians are just operating on gender stereotypes. 246 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: But it nonetheless, for something as puzzling as these kinds 247 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: of personality disorders, it is worthwhile to pay attention to again, 248 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: like how the nurture intertwines with the nature, because gender 249 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: roles would certainly be a part of that nurture pieces. 250 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: But what is it though, about this combination of nature 251 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: nurture that manifests in these antisocial personality disorders, which when 252 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: you say it like that, that doesn't sound to appealing 253 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: at all. And yet we seem to have, especially now 254 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: a pop cultural fascination with them and almost like a 255 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: secret sort of admiration for the sociopath. So let's take 256 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: let's take more into that when we come right back 257 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: from a quick break and now back to the show. 258 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: So in terms of of the pop culture fascination with 259 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: the sociopath, I think it makes sense. I think, uh, 260 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: you know, the sociopath is someone that we have described 261 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: in the first half of this episode as someone yeah, 262 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,479 Speaker 1: who's terrible and doesn't have a conscience. But also if 263 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 1: we're watching them as a third party from the safety 264 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: of our own living room, it's it's almost as if 265 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,959 Speaker 1: you can look at this character, this archetype, this trope 266 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: and say, man, look at how powerful he or she is. 267 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: Look at the fact that this person doesn't really give 268 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: a hoot. Give a hoot. The sociopaths certainly gives no hoops. 269 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: That's right, the new tagline for sociopaths everywhere. Um. Well, 270 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: what's interesting to see two is when you look at 271 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: characters sociopathic characters on television like Tony Soprano or Walter White, 272 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: Dexter Stringer Bell and Marlow from the wire. What you 273 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: do see is that it's this sociopathy as manifested in 274 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: sort of the unadulterated violent masculinity. In a way, there 275 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: are murdering people, they're out for themselves, they're getting wealth 276 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: and power along the way. Some also called Don Draper 277 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: a sociopath. So he's clearly not killing people, but he 278 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: is having sex left and right and lying constantly with 279 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: no conscience as well. So what's going on with this? Well? 280 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: Adam Kotsko over at the New Inquiry wrote along piece 281 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: about this, and he said that it seems as though 282 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: most cultures have lionized ruthless individuals who make their own rules. 283 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: Yet there is something new going on in this entertainment 284 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: trend that goes beyond the understandable desire to fantasize about 285 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: living without the restrictions of society. He says that this 286 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: fantasy sociopath is somehow outside social norms, and he goes 287 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: on to talk about how this person, this character is 288 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: totally breaft of sympathy and totally a moral They're a 289 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: master manipulator doing whatever they can to get what he 290 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: or she wants. But we're looking at them and we're 291 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: just going like, oh, that is so cool, yeah, because 292 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: what would it be like through this fantasy sociopath It 293 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: allows us to just take a moment and consider and 294 00:19:54,280 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: indulge in this idea of living without any rules what soever, 295 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: only you know, serving ourselves and um. One thing in 296 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: his essay that really jumped out to me was this 297 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: idea that perhaps our admiration of these sociopaths on screen 298 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: is connected to our desire to avoid awkwardness, because I 299 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: feel like there is a total, like pop cultural obsession 300 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,479 Speaker 1: right now with awkwardness and also on the other end 301 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: of it with these sociopaths. And he talks about how 302 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: maybe the fantasy of the sociopath is partly the fact 303 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: that sociopaths don't experience awkwardness, because they part of like 304 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: awkwardness in and of itself. Social awkwardness is all about 305 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: feeling uncomfortable with the violation of social norms, of not 306 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: knowing what rules to follow, you know, the dead silence, 307 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: not knowing how to fill it. I have a very 308 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: close and personal relationship with this feeling. But a sociopath 309 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 1: could yet again give a hoot Caroline, but could not 310 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: get dog a boot about the awkward silence because there 311 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 1: are you know, that person is living in sort of 312 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: the psychological vacuum where there are no rules. Who cares? Yeah, 313 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: he says, so that if you're sitting on your couch 314 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: watching Tony Soprano do his thing. It's a thought experiment 315 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: based on the question what if I really and truly 316 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: did not give a bleep about anyone the answer they provide, 317 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: then I would be powerful and free. We all we 318 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: all want to avoid the awkwardness, and so maybe that's 319 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: a good test that we can all perform right now 320 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: on ourselves. Do you feel awkward on a regular basis? Yes, Okay, 321 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: you're probably not a sociopath. Congratulations to a portion of 322 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: our audience. This is true. Well, and these fantasy sociopaths too, 323 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: are so clearly not grounded in all of the clinical 324 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: stuff we were just talking about in terms of how 325 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: sociopaths might have this neurological predisposition for these kinds of behaviors, 326 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 1: but a lot of that is triggered by a series 327 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: of unfortunate events. You know, It's not like being a 328 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: fantasy sociopath is like you just won the lottery, dude, 329 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: everything's great for you. No, no, right, because you know, 330 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: some some of the studies and articles we looked at, 331 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: we're talking about how a lot of sociopaths come out 332 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: of broken homes, kids who were just left to their 333 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: own devices. They were neglected, and when mom or dad 334 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: or grandma whoever did come home, then they were abused 335 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,479 Speaker 1: verbally or physically, and then they end up in the 336 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: criminal system and they end up in prison very much 337 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: unlike a lot of the people that, as Kotsko says, 338 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: we lionized for their ruthless activity, the ruthless behavior. Well, 339 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: it seems like when it comes to this fantasy sociopath 340 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:49,479 Speaker 1: though that Kotsko is talking about, we are misinterpreting that 341 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: as what's really a fantasy psychopath, because the psychopath is 342 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: the one that we hear about a lot in terms of, 343 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: you know, the psychopaths among us, psychopaths and CEOs, like 344 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: psycho paths, do tend to not always but they have 345 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: a greater likelihood of being very successful because they tend 346 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: to be very charming with with that lack of empathy 347 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: on top of it, which unfortunately is kind of a 348 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: recipe for success in certain ways, whereas the sociopath, like 349 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: you said, Caroline, in real world terms, often has a 350 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: much harder time climbing a ladder, if they even want 351 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: to climb a ladder. Right, And when we were searching 352 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: for this episode, I ran a Google Trends search and 353 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: a Google Ingram search for our use of the term 354 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: sociopath because it seemed like we hear more and more 355 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: and more these days, and the data showed like, pretty 356 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: much after two thousand it's used just shoots up. Yeah, yeah, 357 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: I think that's interesting because I think we do just 358 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: sort of throw it around. Yeah, I know that I 359 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: throw it around, not throw it around just like hey 360 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: that girl on the street over there must be a sociopath, 361 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: Chris and stuffings such a sociopath, Like I mean, I 362 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: don't throw it around like that, but you know, I 363 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: do know I have this acquaintance and in my life 364 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: who um completely lack sympathy, which is part of the 365 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: sociopath psychopath thing. But I did read one article that 366 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: sort of said it was one of those like are 367 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: you dating this person? And it looked at psychopath sysiopath, 368 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: but also narcissist. I think they're like things like narcissism. 369 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: We tend to just lump all of this, you know, 370 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: less than ideal personality traits into just calling somebody a 371 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: sociopath because it sounds so dramatic. I wonder too, and 372 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: this is completely anecdotal armchair aside. I wonder if it's 373 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: more of our current sort of need to label everything 374 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: and identify a lot of things, and thinking about the 375 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: popularity of BuzzFeed quizzes what kind of X are you? 376 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: I think we just are at a moment where we 377 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: really want to figure out what every thing is, and 378 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: o ceopath is one of those things that sort of 379 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: risen to the top as like our go to, oh, well, 380 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: that person is clearly lack sympathy, must be a sociopath. Well, 381 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: I think also in an era where uh pop psychology 382 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: books like from Malcolm Gladwell or like Freakonomics, those guys, 383 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: I think when we live in an era like that, 384 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: where more and more people are wanting to know more 385 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: about basic psychological concepts, I think that that raises an 386 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: issue too. Not to say that we are learning everything 387 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: that we need to learn to properly identify people but 388 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: we're still curious about it. We're still fascinated by these people. Well, 389 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: and that's one of the reasons why this memoir that 390 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: came out not too long ago, Confessions of a Sociopath 391 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: A Life Spent Hiding in Plane Sight by M. E. Thomas, 392 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: which is a pseudonym, cut so much attention because first 393 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: of all, people were like, oh, this is a memoir 394 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: written by a sociopath. This is incredible. We have nothing 395 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: like this. We have to read this. What is it 396 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: like inside that brain? And also the fact that Thomas 397 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: is a woman. Right now, John Ronson, who wrote the 398 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: book The Psychopath Test and who we talked about in 399 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: our episode a while back on Psychopaths, wrote a piece 400 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: in The New York Times about Emmy Thomas's book because 401 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: he was so excited. He's like, oh my god, am 402 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: I going to get the chance to hear, you know, 403 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: from the mouth of a sociopath. And then his review 404 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: is so just like, oh man, because it's a freaking 405 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: memoir written by a sociopath. He says that it starts 406 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: out great and then it just lags because someone with 407 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: this trait, this personality disorder, doesn't maybe um understand when 408 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: they're just spewing nonsense, you know, when they've gotten past 409 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: the point of being interesting and helpful and they buy 410 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: too much into their own image. And so he says that, 411 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: like the book just starts to sort of peter off, 412 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: and then he says, and then wait a second, it 413 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: part of being a sociopath is pathological lying. So how 414 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: do we even know that all the stuff this woman 415 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: says it is true about being you know, this powerful 416 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: corporate person in the corporate world, but also teaching Sunday 417 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: school and having a family and doing all this stuff, 418 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: Like how much of this can we actually believe? Well, 419 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: and he was even skeptical of the author's claim that 420 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: she's a woman because sociopathy is so predominant among men, 421 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: and going back to you know, his being of like 422 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: wait a minute, their pathological wires. A lot of times 423 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: this is almost too good to be true? Is the 424 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: wrong cliche to use, but sort of like that, right, 425 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, so Amby Thomas is actually well. She said 426 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: she was attacked quite a bit online on her blog, 427 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: you know message boards, uh, saying that, oh, well, you're 428 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: faking it because you're a woman, or you're really a 429 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: man disguised as a woman, or you're just trying to 430 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: get attention by, you know, breaking out of the norms 431 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: of what a sociopath is is. But in terms of 432 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: answering the question of why are we so fascinated by 433 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: these characters take it from a sociopath or a self 434 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 1: described sociopath, Thomas writes that in a world filled with gloomy, 435 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: mediocre nothings, people are attracted to the sociopaths exceptionalism, like 436 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: moths to a flame. And that seems to fit in 437 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,719 Speaker 1: with what Kotsko was saying about, you know, kind of 438 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: this escapism when we watch a sociopathic character like Tony 439 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: Soprano or whatever, that we're like, oh, man, he just 440 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: doesn't give a hoot who you know, who it's given, 441 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: he doesn't care. He can just do what he wants. 442 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: He's so powerful and and and doesn't stop to feel guilty, 443 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: Like there is something attractive about that. Well, and it's 444 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: incredible to consider what it would be like if you know. M. E. 445 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: Thomas claims in her book that she has never had 446 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: an insecurity and feels no anxiety. And on top of this, 447 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: and this is a quote listeners she possesses quote remarkably 448 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: beautiful breast, which even putting that out there to the 449 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: world in your memoir is evidence of the fact that 450 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: you have never had a security And what what is 451 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: walking through the world like that for a day like that? 452 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: I mean, that is kind of incredible to think about. Um. 453 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: But one thing too that jumped out at me reading 454 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: about how her blog followers turned on her, some of 455 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: them when she was actually outed by another blog Above 456 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: the Law as a woman. Um, it was a number 457 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: of sociopaths who had started reading the blog because there 458 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: is an online community of sociopaths, which sounds sort of 459 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: like an oxymoron of an sociopathic community, but of people 460 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: you know there are obviously in the same way that 461 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: they're functioning psychopaths out there, they're clearly functioning sociopaths out 462 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: there as well. And yeah, but the the idea of 463 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: her being a woman was just outrageous, so outrageous. What 464 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: it's not so outrageous when it comes to pop cultural 465 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: characters of late because in addition to the Tony sopranos, 466 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: would you call Walter White on Breaking Bad a sociopath 467 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: or psychopath? Oh? I mean, because he cares about Walt Jr. 468 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: Making him his his breakfast. Now I would I would 469 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: say that he's not, you know, because he does care 470 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: so much, and that what drives him into a life 471 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: of crime is not because he doesn't give a hoot 472 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: uh and want power. It's because he is sick and 473 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 1: needs money and also needs to save his family. This 474 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: is this is true. Walter White not a sociopath. You've 475 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: heard it here for yes, moving on, but yeah, in 476 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: addition to all these male characters that have been very 477 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: popular of late, they're also a lot of sociopathic women, 478 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: particularly on television as well. You have Cercy Landister, for instance, 479 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: in Game of Throw although we have to say, I 480 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: mean that's it's more originally written in a book. I 481 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: know it didn't start as a television show. And then 482 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: they're also there's Glenn Close's character in Damages, which I 483 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: think it's I watched it on Netflix. I assume it's 484 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: still on Netflix if you haven't seen it yet. She's 485 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: definitely a sociopath on there. And then on screen you 486 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: have Laura and under the Skin, who I believe is 487 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: played by Scarlett Joe Hanson. And then Elizabeth Salander again 488 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: started as a book girl with a dragon tattoo, right, 489 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, we need to we need 490 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: to get to the chase here people Gone Girl and 491 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: uh and this is the part where if you haven't 492 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: read the book and you're not planning to see the 493 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: movie yet, you might want to go ahead and pause 494 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: the podcast until after you've done one of those things 495 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: because spoiler alert. So part of the inspiration for this 496 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: episode was talking about Amy Dunn from Gone Girl. She 497 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: is the wife in the movie. She'll be played by 498 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: the lovely Rosamond Pike. Um. In writing the character of Amy, 499 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: Jillian Flynn, Gone Girls author calls Amy a quote unquote 500 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: functioning sociopath, which she makes sure to distinguish from the 501 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: quote iconic psycho bitch. And I thought that her definitions 502 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: of these things was was so interesting because she ties 503 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: it in, as does another writer that we'll talk about 504 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: a second, but she ties it in with feminism and 505 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: kind of society's perceptions of what women and female characters 506 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: should be um because she says Flynn Flynn writes that 507 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: feminism isn't just this go girl empowering attitude about being 508 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: the best you can be. She says, for me, it's 509 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: also the ability to have women who are bad characters. 510 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: The one thing that really frustrates me is the idea 511 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: that women are innately good, innately nurturing in literature. She says, 512 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: they can be dismissible, bad, trampy, vampi bitchy types. But 513 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: there is still a pushback against the idea that women 514 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: can be just pragmatically evil, bad and selfish. And so 515 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: Flynn is saying, I don't write these quote psycho bitches, 516 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: because this particular woman is just crazy. She has no motive, 517 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: so she is dismissable as a person. And she contrasts 518 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: the character of Amy Dunn and Gone Girl to someone 519 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: like Glenn Close in Fail Attraction, who, as Flynn describes it, 520 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: is crazy because quote her lady parts have gone crazy. 521 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: And I mean that is a good point to make, 522 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: where it is rare to see a woman who is 523 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: simply bad, not just bad, because she is driven by 524 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: the actions of a man or by her sexuality, and 525 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: it's usually the exhibition of her sexuality that makes her bad. 526 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: Right Whereas with a character like Amy Dunn, if you know, 527 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: if you do read the book or see the movie 528 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: or whatever, she's not nuts or harry or unstable. Because 529 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: she has a hysterical floating womb, I mean, or because 530 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: she's had sex with someone she shouldn't have had sex with, 531 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 1: and so she's damaged goods. She is just as as 532 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: Flynn said, pragmatically bad and so. Writing in a piece 533 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: for Dick about this female sociopath that is so on 534 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: our minds these days, MERV m Ray wrote that unlike 535 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: these women, like Glen Close's character and fatal attraction, these 536 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: quote iconic psycho bitches, the functional sociopath isn't dismissable as 537 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: a slave to her emotions. She's not outwardly violent, she's remorseless. 538 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,240 Speaker 1: She's clear eyed and calculating. Um, she's donning one feigned 539 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: feeling after another to get what she wants. But m 540 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 1: right in this piece also delves into the connection between 541 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: pop culturally, speaking, between the female sociopath and our pop 542 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: cultural conceptions feminism and how feminism informs our idea of 543 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: powerful women, and how a lot of times powerful women 544 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 1: in society are often cast as sociopaths. Essentially, Yeah, she 545 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: writes about how this this character of the female sociopath, 546 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: this clear eyed, calculating sociopath, nimbly scales the professional ladder. 547 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: So it's it's the female corporate equivalent in our in 548 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: our popular imaginations of like a tony soprano. Uh Emory 549 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 1: writes that this female sociopath character wants to dominate these 550 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: systems from within, these systems being generally inequality the corporate world, 551 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: and then she writes as the most streamlined product of 552 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: a world in which well intentioned people blithely invoke words 553 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: like arbitrage, leverage, capital, and currency to appraise how successfully 554 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: we inhabit our bodies ourselves. So what does that mean, Caroline? 555 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: What what is she arguing here in terms of feminism 556 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: um and the female sociopath? Because there was a follow 557 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,720 Speaker 1: up piece on this, or a response piece I should 558 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: say on this at the bill fold, essentially saying, oh, 559 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,919 Speaker 1: what do you mean? Because when you first read it, 560 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: it does seem like em Ray is saying that the 561 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: ultimate realization of feminism in today's corporate world is that 562 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: of the female sociopath, which is just makes me want 563 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: to hulk smash somethings I think I had. Well, I 564 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: was telling Christian before we did this that I had 565 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: to read that piece a couple of times before because 566 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: my first reaction was like wait a second, and then 567 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: I had to our t f a uh. And so basically, 568 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: I think she's pointing out that so these these sociopathic 569 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: women characters don't give a hoot because they don't care 570 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: about these gender norms, these social norms, these social constructs 571 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: holding them back, so they'll just plow ahead however they went, which, okay, 572 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: good for them, that might make you a CEO. But 573 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: when this character type, this trope, this construct is aligned 574 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: with feminism, you can imagine that that's not the greatest 575 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: pr for anyone, but it certainly says a lot about 576 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: how we view career women. I mean, look at these 577 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 1: women we've talked about, and how so many of these 578 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,760 Speaker 1: shows that we watch nowadays featured this strong, like sociopathic 579 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: leaning woman character. And I think that shows that, Okay, 580 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: yes women can be powerful, but yes, we sure do 581 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,240 Speaker 1: still have a lot of anxieties about a powerful woman 582 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: and what that means. But the only person so far 583 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: in my research for this who has invoked feminism directly 584 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: in relation to a sociopathic character is Jillian Flynn. And 585 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: I don't see It's not like Glenn Close on Damages 586 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: is advising, you know, the younger female attorney like, hey, honey, 587 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,399 Speaker 1: have have you heard of my glorious Steinhum, she's really 588 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: gonna now let's go kill someone, you know? Like what, 589 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't see how that's happening. I think 590 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: perhaps it's more a thing of image of If the 591 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: image of a powerful woman that we're seeing is a 592 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: freaking sociopath um, then perhaps that can be limiting and 593 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: damaging to the idea of feminism. But at the same time, 594 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: though no one's worried that too much of Tony soprano 595 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: is gonna hurt men, you know what I mean? Like 596 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: that that cause there And I think it's interesting that 597 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: this feminism plus uh sociopathy conversation has come up because 598 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: Jillian Flynn was also not all readers loved the character 599 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: of Amy Dunn and how Jillian Flynn wrote her, because 600 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: some people interpret her interpreted her as a very misogynistic 601 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: character because she has no patience for other women, which 602 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: obviously is a manifestation of her sociopathy. But there were 603 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: some people who thought that it was actually kind of 604 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 1: a misogynistic book in that in that way, Caroline, you're 605 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: now doing your classic Caroline I roll. Well, I think 606 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:27,439 Speaker 1: that I mean, I I loved the character of Amy Dunne. Oh, 607 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: I loved Gone Girl. I read it on the beach 608 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,839 Speaker 1: in like two days. No, but I mean I loved 609 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: Amy Dunne. I loved the book. But I loved Amy Dunne. 610 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: I thought that that character was so despicable and so 611 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: awful and um, I mean I For instance, there's a 612 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: chapter and Amy chapter talking about the cool girl, the 613 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: cool girlfriend, and I was like, Oh my god, if 614 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: you weren't so insane, I would love you for this 615 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 1: thing that you're you as the character writing about being 616 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: the cool girlfriend. It's interesting though, because that IM remember 617 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: being a passage explicitly called out and things that I 618 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: read about as an example of possible misogyny in this 619 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: I'm and I'm I didn't read misogyny into it either, 620 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: but I could see where that interpretation could come from. 621 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: I like taking things a few steps back. I love 622 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,240 Speaker 1: the idea. One of the reasons why I also enjoyed 623 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 1: Amy Dunn's character is just because of the rarity of 624 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 1: a woman just being bad for bad sake. Yeah, and 625 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: I think that's what Gillian Flynn is saying. I think 626 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: I mean to leave out merv em Ray's dig piece completely. 627 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: I think if you just go back to the author herself, 628 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: Gillian Flynn, I think she's absolutely right. Why socially can't 629 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: we have Why why do they all have to be 630 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,840 Speaker 1: Glenn Close boiling a bunny? Why can't it just be 631 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: a fantastically, deliciously just bad woman. And I'm going to 632 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: ask a question that might be controversial, but why can't 633 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: we also just have times when we don't throw feminism 634 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 1: into the stewpot? Because I feel like in the Rabbit 635 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 1: with the Rabbit, exactly with Michael Douglas's daughter's rabbit, because 636 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 1: I feel like this is actually one of those instances 637 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,919 Speaker 1: when it only I don't know, it only stirs things 638 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 1: up rather than let something be okay in and of itself. Yeah, 639 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: I think it. I think it muddies it a little. 640 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 1: I do wonder, I uh do wonder what prompted the 641 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 1: discussion about from Jillian Flynn about feminism in terms of 642 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: the way that she wrote Amy Dunne. Well, it might 643 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: have been questions about people thinking that she wasn't such 644 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 1: a feminist character and maybe her being fed up with it. 645 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: But I'm also just completely projecting at this point. But 646 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,399 Speaker 1: I just like I don't, um, I don't think that 647 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,839 Speaker 1: these kinds of characters who are incredibly entertaining in the 648 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 1: same way that all these devious, sociopathic, evil for evil's 649 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: sake mail characters are entertaining, are necessarily somehow corrupting the 650 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,320 Speaker 1: image of like women, powerful women in the corporate world, 651 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: those women, like our dual images of women in the 652 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,280 Speaker 1: corporate world and what it takes to be a successful woman. 653 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,759 Speaker 1: Like there there's enough in there to work on. I 654 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: don't think that Amy Dunn and Gone Girl is somehow 655 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: making it worse. It's already bad. Yeah, I mean, I 656 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: definitely wish we could get that dig writer on here 657 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: and ask her for her take on all of this, 658 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,719 Speaker 1: um to sort of follow up her piece and um, 659 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, talk about the sociopathic character and what that 660 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: means to her. But alas we can't, but we can 661 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: ask our listeners what they think. I realized we also 662 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 1: have covered so much ground and probably ended in a 663 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: very unexpected place, but there was a lot to talk about, 664 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: so hopefully we have a lot to hear from our 665 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: listeners about sociopathy. Are there any sociopaths listening Gone Girl fans? 666 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: What do you think Let us know all your thoughts. 667 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how Stuffwork dot com is where you 668 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: can email us. You can also tweet us at Mom's 669 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast and also messages on Facebook. And we've got 670 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you. Right after 671 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: a quick break and now back to the show. Alrighty Well, 672 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 1: Kristy and I have some letters here from listeners in 673 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 1: response to our Grandparents episode. UM. I have this letter 674 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,840 Speaker 1: here from Talas who says I wanted to drop a 675 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: line about my granny and I happen to be sitting 676 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,280 Speaker 1: on the couch with her right now watching British mystery 677 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: TV shows. I am the daughter of my grandmother's eleventh 678 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: child my father's side of the families from Tobago of 679 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: Trinidad and Tobago, and I find that the very large 680 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: families are common in West Indian countries. My granny is 681 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: one of thirteen children too. The family has been and 682 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: still is run as a matriarchy, with my granny at 683 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 1: the top, even in a late seventies. She is definitely 684 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: a woman to be revered. She brought her almost a 685 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,839 Speaker 1: dozen children to Queens, New York in ninete with no 686 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,399 Speaker 1: one to greet her or money in her pocket, as 687 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,320 Speaker 1: so many immigrants have done before her. As a woman 688 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: with many children, she also has dozens of grandchildren. She's 689 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: pretty good about keeping our name straight. During my childhood, 690 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: I spent all my summers, holidays, and time off from 691 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: school in her house. I also lived with her full 692 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: time during a separation my parents had. She has raised 693 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: so many and cared tirelessly for all of them as well. 694 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 1: Up until a few years ago, she was a main 695 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: caregiver at her church's daycare, as well as taking care 696 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: of an elderly gentleman from the church. Since last year, 697 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: I've been staying with my grandmother during the school weeks 698 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: since I live outside of the Five Boroughs. I'm twenty 699 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,319 Speaker 1: one now and I have a seven year old cousin 700 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,600 Speaker 1: who lives in the house. It's funny to watch them 701 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: interact because I was around the same age when I 702 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,279 Speaker 1: spent most of my time with her. I can say 703 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: that a Caribbean granny is one of the best you 704 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: can have. Full of all kinds of stories. My personal 705 00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 1: favorites are the island ghost stories, and in addition, she 706 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 1: it's an incredible catalog of recipes in her wonderful brain. 707 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: I do think that grandparents are viewed in an unfavorable 708 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,160 Speaker 1: light and modern American society where they become obsolete and 709 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: reside in nursing homes or care facilities and are only 710 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: seen during holidays. However, I come from a family where 711 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: the house is and has been multigenerational, with my granny 712 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: at the helm. I believe this is one of the 713 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: most positive things about my family and something I would 714 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: like to maintain because the benefits that I've reaped as 715 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,959 Speaker 1: well as the ones your podcast reinforced and informed me about. 716 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: So thank you tell us I I love your granny already. Well, 717 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: I have one here from Beck in Australia, who writes, 718 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 1: I just listened to your grandmother Hypothesis episode, which I 719 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 1: found interesting as I was raised by my maternal grandparents 720 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 1: for a large part of my childhood. More than this, though, 721 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 1: both of my grandparents who raised me were also raised 722 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: by their grandparents, although this was mainly due to the 723 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 1: fact that their fathers were away fighting in World War 724 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 1: Two and their mothers were absent. You mentioned that a 725 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: close relationship with grandparent and skips children a closer association 726 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: with their grandparents. Views and ideals. I thought this was 727 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 1: an interesting point, as despite being raised by them, I 728 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: have radically different political views. Especially they're fairly conservative, but 729 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 1: I've always identified with a far more liberal ideology. I've 730 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: actually gained far more of my political leanings from my friends, 731 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,479 Speaker 1: but I've always been considered an old soul. I didn't 732 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: have any video games, but I can embroider and crochet. 733 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: I made a quote when I was nine, and I 734 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,279 Speaker 1: was taught to be self sufficient in a lot of 735 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,280 Speaker 1: ways that I noticed many children now are not. In fact, 736 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,600 Speaker 1: I view my childhood to be more similar to that 737 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 1: of a decade or two earlier than my own. I 738 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,359 Speaker 1: was given a bike and would be expected to be 739 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 1: out of the house all day. I had to ride 740 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: over a mile to get to the nearest children, and 741 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 1: as we had a national park on our street, we 742 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 1: had no shortage of space to explore, so that's precisely 743 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: what we did. My grandmother had asked me several times 744 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 1: if I felt like I was missing out growing up 745 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,920 Speaker 1: on an isolated location with two senior citizens for company. 746 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 1: I never felt as though I was missing out. My 747 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,879 Speaker 1: grandfather's role in our local government meant that we were 748 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: often invited to openings and events that others my age 749 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: didn't get to experience. My grandparents were both still working 750 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 1: full time for at least the first few years, and 751 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,400 Speaker 1: if there was somewhere they had to be, then I 752 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: had to be there too. I was raised to be 753 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 1: someone who could be taken anywhere. The other thing that 754 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: I wanted to say was that not all grandmothers are 755 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,120 Speaker 1: good bakers. I love my nan, but she is the 756 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,000 Speaker 1: worst cook. This meant that I had to learn to 757 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 1: cook very early, because seriously, her food is inedible. This 758 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 1: is actually something I'm super grateful for. I love to 759 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,560 Speaker 1: be in my kitchen and I love food. Thanks so 760 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: much for talking about grandparents. I love your podcast and 761 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,520 Speaker 1: listen to it often at work, So thanks Beck, and 762 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,400 Speaker 1: thanks to everybody else who's written into us. Mom stuff 763 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 1: at how stuffworks dot com is our email address and 764 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well 765 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: as all of our videos, blogs, and podcasts, including this one, 766 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,879 Speaker 1: which has all of our sources so that you can 767 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 1: follow right along with us. It's all stuff Mom Never 768 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:04,520 Speaker 1: told You dot com for more on this and thousands 769 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:14,719 Speaker 1: of other topics. Isn't how staff works dot com