Speaker 1: Today, all the things Joe Biden can do on the
Speaker 1: environment and all the things he can't. And this may
Speaker 1: not surprise you, but there are a lot more of
Speaker 1: the latter than the form. Hello, and welcome back once
Speaker 1: again to Parts per Billion, the Environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, David Schultz. So for the rest of
Speaker 1: the year, the biggest story in the environmental world will
Speaker 1: be the transition of incoming President elect Joseph R. Biden.
Speaker 1: Who will his nominees be, What does that say about
Speaker 1: what Biden wants to do? Or can his nominees even
Speaker 1: get confirmed by the Senate? Those are all questions we're
Speaker 1: going to be asking here in Washington, DC and also
Speaker 1: on this podcast over the next few weeks and months now.
Speaker 1: The last time the White House switch from Republican to
Speaker 1: Democratic was back in January of two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: and back then Democrats had huge majorities in both chambers
Speaker 1: of Congress. That it is most definitely not the case
Speaker 1: this time around. So naturally one would think that means
Speaker 1: Biden will accomplish little on environmental issues, but that's not
Speaker 1: going to go over well with a lot of the
Speaker 1: environmental activists that make up a part of the Democratic
Speaker 1: Party's coalition, and especially not the Sunrise Movement, a powerful
Speaker 1: youth led group that has a lot of sway on
Speaker 1: climate change policy. To discuss this, I rang up Dean Scott,
Speaker 1: a Bloomberg Law reporter who covers the environment. We spoke
Speaker 1: yesterday afternoon about how Biden's administration will differ from Obama's
Speaker 1: on the environment, and we also talked about Biden's selection
Speaker 1: of John Kerry, an Obama administration veteran, as a Special
Speaker 1: Presidential Envoy for climate change. I was not necessarily thinking
Speaker 1: John Kerry was going to come back to play a
Speaker 1: role in this administration. As I'm sure you know, John Kerry,
Speaker 1: the former Senator from Massachusetts, chairman and also a Secretary
Speaker 1: of State, worked on the Paris Climate Accord, was fairly
Speaker 1: intimately involved with that, and I certainly saw an enhanced
Speaker 1: role for him on the climate issue, maybe even the
Speaker 1: global stage once Biden was elected. To see him brought
Speaker 1: into the White House, and he'll be the first climate
Speaker 1: official ever with a seat on the National Security Council
Speaker 1: in this sort of new position, I think that's a
Speaker 1: really interesting signal that really provides a really interesting place
Speaker 1: for John Carry to serve a role in this administration.
Speaker 1: So it seems like by choosing Kerrie for this role,
Speaker 1: Biden is really elevating the issue of climate change. However,
Speaker 1: You've also done some interesting reporting on the pick of
Speaker 1: Cedric Richmond as a senior White House official. He's someone
Speaker 1: who has been much friendlier to the oil and gas industry.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about that. Yeah, the Cedric Richmond appointment,
Speaker 1: you know, to some role was expected because he's a Democrat.
Speaker 1: He was very involved in Biden's campaign, and so there
Speaker 1: was some expectation that he might have some role in
Speaker 1: this new role as a sort of victual advisor for engagement.
Speaker 1: The idea is he'll reach out from the White House
Speaker 1: and be sort of a point person to interact with
Speaker 1: the climate advocacy community, but also business groups, other folks
Speaker 1: that want to bring things to the administration. Representative Richmond's
Speaker 1: positions in part because he represents Louisiana, a district in
Speaker 1: Louisiana he basically as has been criticized as being too
Speaker 1: close to fossil fuel interests, and his appointment actually drew
Speaker 1: some some some backlash from the Sunrise Movement and some
Speaker 1: other activists on the climate climate issue, and I would
Speaker 1: point out some interesting things about him. One is in
Speaker 1: the area of carbon capture. You might recall there there
Speaker 1: has not always been a lot of affection from Democrats
Speaker 1: because that's that's I guess, that's seen as like, you know,
Speaker 1: a way to allow the continued burning of fossil les
Speaker 1: instead of sort of phasing it out right, That's right,
Speaker 1: that's how it seemed by particularly for critics. Those technologies
Speaker 1: haven't always been embraced by Democrats, but in more recent years,
Speaker 1: Democrats have signed on to increasing the tax incentives for
Speaker 1: carbon capture, and so looking at Represented Richmond's support for this,
Speaker 1: I think that provides another voice for carbon capture in
Speaker 1: this administration. And I would point out Joe Biden's platform
Speaker 1: makes at least a cursory mention of carbon capture as
Speaker 1: a solution. So you mentioned the sunrise movement a little bit,
Speaker 1: and I want to get more into that, but first
Speaker 1: let's talk about the EPA itself. You know, again we're
Speaker 1: talking here on Tuesday afternoon of Tuesday, November twenty fourth.
Speaker 1: We don't know who the head of the EPA is
Speaker 1: going to be yet, but it does seem like Mary Nichols,
Speaker 1: the head of the Californi the Air Resources Board, has
Speaker 1: the inside track. What are you hearing from sources about
Speaker 1: this are is everyone wouldever one be pleased with Mary
Speaker 1: nichols appointment or would there's be some people who think
Speaker 1: that she's either too radical or not radical enough? Well,
Speaker 1: I would say between Mary Nichols that connection to California
Speaker 1: and the work that California has been out front in
Speaker 1: terms of, you know, establishing a cap and trade program,
Speaker 1: doing many of the things that have not been possible
Speaker 1: in Congress, it basically puts her on the vanguard I
Speaker 1: think for a lot of people in terms of her
Speaker 1: ability to move some climate action out of e p
Speaker 1: A and sort of restart what was a pretty active
Speaker 1: EPA on this front during the Obama administration. Who are
Speaker 1: also still hearing the name of Washington Governor Jay Insley
Speaker 1: on the short list. But I also think there are
Speaker 1: some names that we just haven't seen some other names.
Speaker 1: The reason I'm reason and I'm hedging a little bit is, uh,
Speaker 1: the the John Kerrey pick and some other picks outside
Speaker 1: of the environmental area have have surprised some people. So
Speaker 1: I would not be surprised to see some other names,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't be surprised to be surprised. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: sometimes in this area, when we're talking about transition for
Speaker 1: a new administration and and and who's who's the hot name,
Speaker 1: We've been down this road before where it winds up
Speaker 1: not being any of the names that we're hearing. But
Speaker 1: I think the important issue there is is if you're
Speaker 1: Joe Biden, you're going to want to have somebody that
Speaker 1: sends a signal to the climate environmental community that you're
Speaker 1: serious about EPA providing a significant role and occupying that
Speaker 1: space for climate change, because, as you know, we're we
Speaker 1: have real questions about who's going to control the Senate
Speaker 1: and very close margins in the House. So there the
Speaker 1: the question now is what can Biden do on his
Speaker 1: own for the next couple of years on climate change
Speaker 1: if we're not almost certainly not going to have a
Speaker 1: massive climate change bill, or at least an ambitious one
Speaker 1: that might have been possible if Democrats had won you know, three,
Speaker 1: four or five six seats, as some people were predicting
Speaker 1: before election day. So it sounds like I'm kind of
Speaker 1: reading between the lines of what you're saying here, But
Speaker 1: It sounds like what you're saying is that the you know,
Speaker 1: environmental activists and people sort of on the left in
Speaker 1: the environmental movement, particularly the Sunrise movement, you know, of
Speaker 1: climate activists, it sounds like they'll have a pretty big
Speaker 1: influence in who the Biden administration chooses to lead its
Speaker 1: environmental agencies. Is that is that your understanding? That's I
Speaker 1: think they have some inputs. Certainly they're looking that it
Speaker 1: will be a signal to them. The only caveat I
Speaker 1: would throw out there is is if Democrats are in
Speaker 1: the minority, or even if they win the two in
Speaker 1: Georgia and thus barely control the Senate with fifty seats.
Speaker 1: Either way, you're going to have some difficulty in getting
Speaker 1: cabinet people through the Senate with that kind of margin.
Speaker 1: So I would I would make the point that maybe
Speaker 1: some of the more ambitious picks for climate change that
Speaker 1: really would would make the Sunrise movement and other climate
Speaker 1: advocates really happy, those might not be on the table
Speaker 1: simply because Biden has to fill a cabinet. Oh well,
Speaker 1: there goes Bill mckibbon's chances of becoming EPA administrator just vanished.
Speaker 1: Let's sort of talk about policies now, not just people.
Speaker 1: You've been doing some interesting reporting on the Clean Power Plan,
Speaker 1: which was listeners may recall the Obama administration's big attempt
Speaker 1: to kind of rewrite the rules for the power sector
Speaker 1: and make them more climate friendly. They didn't go well,
Speaker 1: which I'm sure we can get into, and of course,
Speaker 1: you know laid dormant during the Trump administration. But will
Speaker 1: they be resurrected under President Biden? Is that something that
Speaker 1: you're hearing? Well, I think from the folks that I've
Speaker 1: been talking to, you're going to see a resurrection of
Speaker 1: the effort, or let's say the big thirty thousand foot plan,
Speaker 1: the idea that EPA should have a role in regulating
Speaker 1: power plan emissions and some other missions for that amount.
Speaker 1: For that matter, I think you're going to see them
Speaker 1: forcefully returned to that arena. There's no doubt of that,
Speaker 1: particularly since we don't have Democrats with big margin controlling
Speaker 1: the Senate and possibly not controlling it at all. That
Speaker 1: puts a lot of onus, on EPA and on Biden
Speaker 1: to get some of these things done using existing executive
Speaker 1: branch authority. And if that sounds like deja vu, That's
Speaker 1: pretty much what Obama's plan was a couple of years
Speaker 1: into his administration when it appeared, you know, they were
Speaker 1: they were not going to be able to get the
Speaker 1: cap and Trade bill through, and the Obama administration decided
Speaker 1: to sort of take what people call it a go
Speaker 1: with a loan approach. The problem now is the game
Speaker 1: plan on the field has already been executed during Obama
Speaker 1: to try to regulate power plants using a very broad
Speaker 1: reach for EPA not just to the power plant sites,
Speaker 1: but all the way out into the grid. The problem
Speaker 1: is it was stayed by the Supreme Court, and there
Speaker 1: are real questions with an even more conservative court that
Speaker 1: exists today of being able to run that game plan again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's easy to forget, but we're talking
Speaker 1: about a really kind of novel theory of administrative law
Speaker 1: and about what the executive branch can and can't do
Speaker 1: without laws being passed by Congress. And you're right, I
Speaker 1: mean that, you know, it's very possible that if the
Speaker 1: Biden administration tries to do that again or something like that,
Speaker 1: that the Supreme Court will step in. And you know,
Speaker 1: it is anyone's guesses to what will happen there, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and because it was already a conservative court that
Speaker 1: stayed Obama's Clean Power Plan over three years ago, what
Speaker 1: you have now is is you have an even more
Speaker 1: conservative court now that's more like six ' three instead
Speaker 1: of five to four. So there's there aren't a lot
Speaker 1: of questions about whether, you know, even if it was
Speaker 1: possible to just you know, wake from the dead Obama's
Speaker 1: Clean Power Plan and and and you know, put new
Speaker 1: garments on it and dress it up as something new,
Speaker 1: I don't know that that would really have us necessarily
Speaker 1: the court. There are options, and I'm sure they will
Speaker 1: look at other options. The consensus seems to be that
Speaker 1: they may go back to using the same authority that
Speaker 1: they've already used, but maybe just somehow change the scope
Speaker 1: of what they're regulating and just come at it from
Speaker 1: a different angle. All right. And finally, you know, President
Speaker 1: elect Biden was vice president under President Obama. Of course,
Speaker 1: and it may be too soon to say this, but
Speaker 1: do you think that from an environmental standpoint, the Biden
Speaker 1: administration is just going to be a kind of replay
Speaker 1: or retread of what happened in the Obama administration, or
Speaker 1: do you think Biden will bring some markedly different policies
Speaker 1: and perspectives to the environmental field than the President Obama did.
Speaker 1: I think one thing that will be different is we're
Speaker 1: not going to be staring off from a position like
Speaker 1: Obama did coming into office in two thousand and nine
Speaker 1: with hopes of doing big climate legislation right off the bat.
Speaker 1: As you recall, that was like one of three top
Speaker 1: priorities for his administration. We're not going to have for
Speaker 1: President elect Joe Biden time or the political will, I
Speaker 1: think to do that big of a bill. So in
Speaker 1: a sense, I think what we'll be doing with Biden
Speaker 1: is we'll be getting rid of some of these early
Speaker 1: years of effort that we saw under Obama, where you know,
Speaker 1: we test what can be done in Congress, try to negotiate,
Speaker 1: try to get Republicans on board. And there is an
Speaker 1: argument even out there now that having more of a
Speaker 1: divided Congress can be a very good sort of garden
Speaker 1: for growing deals that don't seem to get done in Washington,
Speaker 1: even when you have control of things Captain Trade being
Speaker 1: a great exam sample that in two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: where they had control of all arms of government, still
Speaker 1: couldn't get it done. Yeah, and so actually I was
Speaker 1: thinking about that. It's hard to remember now, but Democrats
Speaker 1: really had enormous majorities in both chambers and they had
Speaker 1: the presidency. That's right. And instead of that, you're already saying,
Speaker 1: I mean, Biden hasn't even been sworn in yet, and
Speaker 1: we're already tempering the expectations for what he can get done.
Speaker 1: So there's this tension there. There's pressure for him to deliver, frankly,
Speaker 1: a lot more or get us on a path doing
Speaker 1: a lot more, and without having help from Congress. That's
Speaker 1: it for today's episode of Parts per Billion. If you
Speaker 1: want more environmental news, check us out on Twitter. We
Speaker 1: use the handle at environment just that at environment, nothing else.
Speaker 1: I'm at David B. Schultz. If you have any family
Speaker 1: recipes you want to share, I'm always on the lookout.
Speaker 1: Today's episode of Parts per Billion was produced by myself
Speaker 1: and Josh Blocks. Assistance on this episode came from Anna Yugananov.
Speaker 1: Personal willing was created by Jessica Coombs and Rachel Daegel.
Speaker 1: The music for today's episode is a Message by Jazar
Speaker 1: and Road to Memphis by Paul Pushara and Emmanuel Jambonet.
Speaker 1: They were used under a Creative Comments license. Thanks for
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