WEBVTT - Like They’re Reaching Out to Me 0:00:01.160 --> 0:00:02.160 Bunch of roses. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.640 Oh yes, this kind of looks like wisteria growing up 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:06.400 over these two are. 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:08.560 That is definitely whysteria. 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.400 It's morning in late April. My producer Rebecca and I 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.960 are in an old cemetery in downtown Jackson, Mississippi, with 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:20.360 Wayne Lee. Wayne's grandfather was one of the seven thousand 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:24.520 former patients buried on the grounds of the Mississippi State Asylum. 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.120 But his grandfather's not buried here. We're in this particular 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:34.520 cemetery for something else. Wayne's a taller guy, early seventies. 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:37.360 His full head of snow white hair is a bit 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.559 windswept as he heads towards us. Each time we meet him. 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.320 He has on some variation of hiking pants cinched up 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:49.080 around a plaid, short sleeved shirt. And there's one other 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:50.720 thing we haven't told you about. 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:53.760 Wayne. I'm Wayne Lee. I'm a dawser. 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:58.280 If you like me, grew up on reruns of Gilligan's Island. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:00:59.840 Mister, how what do you think of my new divine 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:01.080 w then you might. 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.680 Have a vague idea of what dowsing is. It's an 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.800 ancient tradition where practitioners use a forked branch or metal 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:14.480 rods to find things hidden underground, most commonly water underground wells, 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:20.360 but people dows for all sorts of things, minerals, oil, gemstones, 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.360 and graves, which is where Wayne comes in. 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:28.399 Wayn is a grave dowser. 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.520 This means he believes he's able to find and identify 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:36.920 unmarked graves. He takes his direction from two long, thin 0:01:37.000 --> 0:01:40.480 pieces of metal called divining rods. We'll come back to 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:46.600 those later. See The Asylum Cemetery and its thousands of 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:51.080 unmarked graves was a big story, but the issue of 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.480 unmarked graves and forgotten cemeteries isn't a new one. In 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.760 the South, the landscape is peppered with the graves of 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:01.080 soldiers from both sides of the Civil War, hastily buried 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:04.200 at the sites of major battles. And of course there 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.880 were millions of people in slavery on plantations, buried by 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.560 enslavers who weren't eager to spend money on something as 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:17.320 permanent or respectful as a granite headstone. But time is 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.160 the biggest enemy of all grave sites, even the marked ones. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:29.680 People move away, Rain, humidity, and sun wipe out the 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:35.320 landscape's memory. Kudzoo and BlackBerry vines topple and bury any 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:36.880 markers that are left. 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.960 Well. I don't want to see anyone disrespected. I'll work 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.520 in a lot of cemeteries, cleaning up cemeteries. They're not 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.480 my relatives, They're just people that have been forgotten. And 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:55.120 by using the divining rods, I can help find people. 0:02:56.400 --> 0:03:00.400 Sometimes their headstones are just under the surface. I can 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.480 find them and upright them to show respect to those people. 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:06.360 These are just forgotten souls, and I want to do 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.040 everything I can to try to write that. 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:14.280 It's like doctor Didlake said in our first episode, honoring 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:18.560 the dead is baked into the Southern ethos so Waine. 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:23.240 He keeps busy, and he doesn't discriminate. He answers the 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.160 call of Civil War buffs that day. 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:30.120 I think eleven soldiers and they were in a line, 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:30.960 just like a trench. 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.440 He works with the descendants of people enslaved by plantation 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:35.880 owners in the Confederacy. 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:41.640 Maybe it's because my ancestors had slaves, so I almost 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.400 felt like they're reaching out to me, Hey, you know, 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.800 help us out. I made crosses for every person that 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.440 I found in that cemetery and marked it and had 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.280 the names inscribed in the days they were born and died. 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.880 And my hope is that someday, when somebody's trying to 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.800 their ancestors, that was a slave might run across that. 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:06.200 That's my hope. I'm just showing respect. 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:07.680 Respect. 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.720 Wayne's own grandfather was a patient at the State Asylum, 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.360 which means that his body lies right now in an 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:20.080 unmarked grave. His burial nearly one hundred years ago might 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.440 sound like distant past, but for Wayne, that lack of 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:28.000 resolution in his grandfather's story remains an open wound, and 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:29.640 he's looking for a sense of closure. 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:38.320 I can walk around the room and say, father, can 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.320 you direct me to Larius, Father, please direct. 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:43.400 Me to Larius. 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:46.280 Oh please us. 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:48.520 I'm Laris and Campbell. 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:57.080 And this is under Yazoo Clay, the site of the 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.240 old Asylum, the site that's now the Medical Center for 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:05.800 the University of Mississippi, holds seven thousand unmarked graves. That's 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:11.039 seven thousand lives lived and tens of thousands more lives 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:16.719 connected to those. So how did this cemetery get forgotten? 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:19.880 The first bodies were buried at that site in the 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.440 middle of the eighteen hundreds, and for the next half 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.440 century plus, the story of this graveyard proceeded in a 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:30.000 straight line. Patients were interred, markers were laid, some stone, 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:34.279 mostly wood, and the cemetery grew, often tended to and 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:38.880 maintained by people in the asylum. So when the asylum 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.240 closed in nineteen thirty five and the state transferred those 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:47.520 patients to the new hospital outside of Jackson, the trajectory shifted. 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:52.040 Now the cemetery didn't belong to the hospital. There was 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:56.280 no hospital there. It became part of the fabric of Jackson. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.279 The best glimpse I've gotten of the asylum in those 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:02.880 years was from the writer you Dora Welty, who was 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:04.160 also a great. 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.360 Photographer, and the foreground of her. 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:11.440 Photo is waste high grass. Behind that a thick jumble 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:15.159 of tall trees, and right in the center, peeking through 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.039 a gap in the branches, looms the decaying turret of 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:26.279 the old asylum, isolated, haunting, beautiful. The state tore down 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.440 what remained of the building in the nineteen fifties. By then, 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.920 the cemetery had been swallowed by the woods from Welty's photograph, 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.479 and Jackson residents began to find other uses for it. 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.800 And you know, for a long time people in the 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:43.520 community knew that there was a cemetery there. You know, 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:45.880 it comes up again and again when I talked to 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:48.720 people who live in this area, they're like, oh, yeah, 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:51.680 when I was a teenager, I rode horses there. Or 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.320 it apparently used to be the place where people would 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:56.080 go parking. 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.919 For those of you who've never been to a shop, 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.320 that's sixty speak for a makeout session in a car. 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:09.479 And that wasn't the only thing people got up to 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:10.120 in the woods. 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.840 I know that there was a moonshine operation that got 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.800 busted back in there at one point. There were reports 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.200 of a lot of vandalism, you know, just people hanging 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.520 out doing stuff they shouldn't do. 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.320 The woods were home to plenty of grated activities too. 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:29.480 Kids would explore, adults would take long walks under the trees. 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:32.440 One of those is Bill Lee. 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.160 He's a cousin of Wayne's, the descendant and gravedolz Aer. 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:40.120 Bill's lived in the Jackson area for over sixty years 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:41.920 and he's a history buff the way that. 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:43.680 A lot of older Southern men are. 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:47.760 Well. I lead tours in Normandy. Oh really, yeah, I 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:48.840 got a tour in company. 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.480 I am pleased that your children are interested in World 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:53.239 War two. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:55.120 They are very interested. 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:57.480 Well, that's fantastic. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.360 Bill lives in a lakeside condo outside of Jackson. We'd 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:03.280 gone to his place to meet up with Wayne, who 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.440 driven down from North Carolina, but it turned out that 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.239 Bill also had something relevant to this story. It sits 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.160 by his front steps, right where other condo owners would 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:18.440 place a stone, pelican or hang an anchor. A headstone, 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:22.840 white marble, maybe eighteen inches high, a foot or so across, 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:26.520 an inch thick, propped up right by the front door. 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.240 The story for how he got it starts more than 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:33.240 half a century ago, on a walk through those woods 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:34.080 with his young son. 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:39.160 We'd just go walking in the woods and we parked 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.160 somewhere around there, and I thought it was just as 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.560 far as just a wooded area over there. He was 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.240 so small he couldn't walk. I had to put him 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:48.600 up on. 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:52.360 Neck and we just started walking, and all of a 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:56.760 sudden I looked down and there was a headstone. I said, 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.000 wait a minute, what is this? And all of a sudden, 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.360 and I walked a bit further and I started looking 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:10.160 the hall around and there were scores of headstones over 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:15.760 a sprawling area. I said, this is a big cemetery. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.400 Now, these stone markers weren't on every grave. Most patients 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:24.280 were buried with painted wooden markers. Families with means could 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:25.600 pay extra for stone. 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.360 It was like a forest, and there was not a 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.760 lot of underbrush because those tree canopies kept that sunlight 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:39.160 from the grounds. I could see the whole cemetery, see 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.520 all those markers out there, scores of them. Well, what 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:49.600 do they say, seven thousand bodies out there or more? 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:58.360 Being a history buff the image of the cemetery stayed 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.320 was built. It felt wrong that, in the space of 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.959 just over thirty years, all these graves in the center 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.760 of his city could just be forgotten, especially after he 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.800 heard that the state had plans to remove the remaining 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:15.400 stone markers. By the way, I haven't been able to 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:18.200 find any record of this plan in the state archives 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.800 or newspapers, but other people have told me they heard 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.360 about it too, and the headstones have been gone for decades. 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:29.160 So Bill and a friend stage to rescue. 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.440 I said, I don't want to be able to tell people, yes, 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:36.359 that's a cemetery out there, and yes they were markers, 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:38.920 and here's the evidence of it right here. 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.000 Because I knew it. First of all, I said, I 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:43.040 can't take them all. 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:47.600 If I could, I would have taken them all, okay, 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:48.880 But I said I. 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:51.319 Can take one. I can do that. 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:55.079 So this is the one I'm going to take right here. 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.640 And I just wanted to save it for posterity. Said yeah, hey, 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.360 you say they didn't no cemeteries, there were no markers. 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:03.560 But here's one right here. 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:04.880 I got evidence, SOAVI it for. 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.760 Goodness shop That evidence has followed Bill to every house 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.480 he's lived in since. When we paid Bill a visit 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.840 at his condo. It was the first thing Wayne pointed out, this. 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.040 Is the first evidence I was telling you about. 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.560 Oh my gosh, can. 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:22.120 You imagine the first time I met Billy and I 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.480 come to his house and I said, what are you 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:25.439 doing with the headstone? 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:26.959 Will you read the headstone to me? 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:33.240 This is Timothy o'reardon died May the thirtieth, eighteen ninety three, 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:39.920 aged sixty three years And Laida she checked it out, 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.360 and he was a patient there and he was buried 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:43.120 in the cemetery. 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:44.959 And it's a good shape it is. 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.040 It's sitting there for since in the seventies. 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:49.880 I mean, that's been out. 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:55.640 I reckon, right, Yeah, years thirty years old. Bill this 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.480 was a rescue mission to protect his state's history, even 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:01.920 if the state itself I might not. 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:02.560 See it that way. 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:08.040 It's unclear why the headstones would be moved. Institutional memory 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.000 on this is surprisingly short in a state that still 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:15.800 celebrates Confederate History Month. I did hear some markers had 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:20.720 been broken, and there were concerns about vandalism. Regardless of 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:25.600 the reason, the results the same. The headstones are gone. 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.679 The wooden markers went the way of the Yazoo clay, 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:39.040 and the memories were buried with them. The morning after 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.920 we saw the headstone at Bill Lee's condo, we headed 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.640 over to Greenwood Cemetery to meet up with Wayne for 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:48.280 a dowsing demonstration. The cemetery sits in the middle of 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.520 downtown Jackson, a small sea of tall waving grass and 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.800 old shade trees and view of the state capitol. We 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:59.120 waited for Wayne under a live oak. The sun was dapple, 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:03.280 the birds were the mowers were in full swing, so 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.000 you may hear one or two of those. Once Wayne 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.640 pulled up and it's bright blue. Prius, it was down 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:09.599 to business. 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:11.040 To go. 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:12.040 You have a. 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:15.559 Way you like to get started. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.800 Or yeah, and I'm going to do a little demonstration 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:23.200 with the divining rods. 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.800 Wayne's dowsing materials consist of two thin steel rods bent 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.000 into an L shape. The short end's got a piece 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.320 of PVC pipe around it. That's the part he's holding. 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.720 The PVC means he's not touching the metal, that it 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:41.360 can move free and clear. 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.400 And I like this to be able to move freely 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:47.800 that way. You know, if he's spent all the way around, 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.160 I'm not touching the metal at all, And so I 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.240 don't want anybody thinking, yeah, he's making that turn and 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:54.319 I can't make it turn. 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.680 When he locates the grave, the two rods swing toward 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:02.400 his chest and over each other. When he steps off 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.280 the grave, the rods swing back out. It's a dynamic 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.440 X marks the spot kind of operation. If you're wondering 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:12.760 just what the hell kind of metal can do this, 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:16.000 the answer is any You could take. 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.160 A coat hanger. You can be done with a loan. 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:19.440 It can't be done with copper. 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:20.760 This is just. 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.600 Metal that came from like home depot or blows. 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.080 The rods may not need to be endowed with specific qualities, 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.840 but the dowser does. Wayne calls this a gift granted 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.720 by his creator. It's one he said, became apparent the 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.440 first time he picked up divining rods, which surprised even him. 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.320 Real dowsers, he explains, are rare. 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:48.400 It was very scary for me. 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:50.040 I stopped. 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:55.280 I looked around. I'm like, am I going nuts? Nobody 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:59.280 wants to think about that. But the thing that has 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.960 happened from me by using the divining rods, it has 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:10.000 strengthened my faith. It has told me that just because 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:14.600 you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not real. And 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.200 there's so much in this world I think that we 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.320 don't know and we don't know about. It's told me 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:26.320 that we all have a creator, no matter what you 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.240 want to call you a creator, where you want to 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.480 call it God or Buddha or whatever, we have a 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:36.200 creator that's in charge and the miracles that happen every day, 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.160 just because we don't always know it. I've had several 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.880 miracles happened in my life, this being one of them 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:46.080 that I've gained this ability to do this. 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.600 When Wayne tells us that he's one of the few 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.520 who can do this, I'm a little skeptical. But Wayne 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.920 is so sweet and earnest that it doesn't feel like 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.040 he's trying to pull one over on us. I mean 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:02.760 he offered to demonstrate. 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:06.640 So I'm going to walk over to this first series 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:07.480 of graves. 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.680 Here he trapes through the overgrown grass to a line 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.400 of headstones. Then, holding a bent metal rod in each hand, 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:16.360 he bowed his head. 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:19.320 First of all, I'm just gonna ask God to help 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.520 me use these divining rods today. Please let your Holy 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.960 Spirit work through me and let me do a good 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:31.680 job with us today. So when I step over a grave, 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.760 the rods will cross over. When I step off, the 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:36.800 rods will open up. 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:40.840 Oh. 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.480 He steps over the graves and the rods make an X. 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.320 But it's not just the locations of graves. 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.560 I was told by a dowser a few years ago 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:55.600 when I first started dowsing, that he could determine the 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.240 depths that the person was buried. I've never dug anyone up, 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:02.600 so I don't know that to be a fact. So 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:06.320 first and we'll walk to the grave crosses over, I 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:14.879 wait for it to reopen. When they cross over again, 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.320 it's how deep the person is. So the distance from 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:23.560 here to there, which is probably around six feet. 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:25.960 They can point to the head of the body. 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:28.240 Fally, can you direct me to the head of this person? Fally, 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:29.760 can you direct me to the feet of this person. 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:32.400 They can deduce gender on a place. 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.440 One rod over her. If it's a woman, the rod 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.879 would turn toward her feet. If it's a man, the 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.080 rough to turn toward the head. 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.320 And in one of the more awe inspiring feats, they 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.560 can even lead Wayne to a specific person. 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:52.239 Let's say, ask for Mary Louise. Father, I'm looking for 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:57.359 Mary Louise. Can you help me find Mary Louise? And 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:00.000 it's not going to cross over again until I get 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:06.240 to Mary Louise, Mary Louise. But I have the confidence 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:10.879 and God has revealed to me that I can find 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:13.240 people only even know who they are. 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.840 Skepticism aside, it's easy to see how the ability to 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:23.560 not just locate but identify graves could be useful, especially 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.359 when you have something like a state owned site with 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.840 seven thousand unmarked graves. In fact, Wayne has dowst at 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:34.360 the Asylum cemetery and he believes he's located his own 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:35.399 grandfather's grave. 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.680 When I found my grandfather there to cemetery and they 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:44.960 hadn't started zooming bodies. Yet that was the beginning of 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:49.439 some closure for me. It's like, maybe you forgot about him, 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.919 and maybe you didn't put up a marker that's still there. 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:53.919 But I'm going to put up a marker. 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.359 As I said, the science here is iffy at best, 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.119 and that's at all with the very science based identification 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:08.399 approach of Asylum Hill and the University Medical Center, which 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:11.159 is probably why when the medical Center found out that 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.840 we and Wayne and a bunch of audio equipment were 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:17.600 heading out to the Asylum Cemetery to record Wayne dowsing 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:22.280 for his grandfather's grave, they politely but firmly told us 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:23.000 to leave the tree. 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:24.919 Are you trying to take pictures or something? 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:26.239 No, no, no, no, no no. 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:31.160 We wanted to show us where he believes his grandfather's 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:31.639 grave is. 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:37.800 Oh well, yeah, I'm sorry, but I can't. 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.400 He just not talk about it and not like. 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.520 Physically go there, which is how we all wound up 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.000 at the very marked graves of Greenwood Cemetery. But there 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:49.480 is an upside to dowsing at a cemetery where graves 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:53.760 are marked. There might be confirmation bias, but it's easy 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:56.439 to see if it's working. So I asked if I 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:57.240 could give it a shot. 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:58.840 Does this work for everybody? 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:00.480 Can anybody do you do this? 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:04.639 I've shown several people. Some people can do it, some 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.560 people can do it a little bit, some people can't 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:08.120 do it at all. 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:09.560 May I try? 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:10.160 Sure? 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:12.560 Actually it turned out I was one of the people 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.480 in that latter category, that's after the break. 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.800 And back up and go come forward to help them 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.760 just a little more level, a little more so. 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.000 It's not the rod's barely moved. 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.320 Maybe this just meant I hadn't mastered the wrist tilt. 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:41.240 I tried adjusting my hands. 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.720 I don't think I have you know what, Like I said, 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.480 this is swimming and guy, and I said, God, you know, 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:51.280 help me. I always pray before I do it. 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:53.920 I'm gonna have a meditative money to help me, and 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:54.879 I'm going to try it again. 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:57.760 Sure, I tried again. 0:20:58.440 --> 0:20:59.640 I don't think I have it. 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:05.880 Okay, all right, guess the rods moved slightly toward each other. 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:15.560 Over your hand or you're kind of a love. 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:16.359 All right, let's try it. 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.399 Maybe that was something, or maybe it was just that 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:25.879 they were sitting inside hollow PVC tubes alas no dice 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.159 If this was some sort of gimmick that Wayne was 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:33.440 pulling off. It was an impressive one. Rebecca, the producer, 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.119 seemed to share my doubt, which may be why I 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:39.040 handed her the rods. Next, do you want to give 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:46.119 it a try? Hand me all this stuff and the headphones. 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.560 Now come toward me and get straightened. 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:50.639 Up with me. 0:21:53.280 --> 0:22:00.479 Now walk toward me. Oh all right, I told you alive. 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.840 Well that's my asking a question. You can't ask what 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.520 a person's head is. But like I said, I pray 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:12.720 and I ask God to help me do this. M 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:21.480 He asked with the with the head of Mary Louise. 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:24.600 Where's the head of Mary Louise? 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:32.840 Inexplicably, the rod swung clipsed, then open, then around to 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:36.600 point the way to Mary Louise mcgheee h. 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.840 Wow. I think I think you might be a natural. 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:49.040 You got it. You're the first person that I know 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:49.879 of that has done this. 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.600 Well, no, you're like a natural. 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:57.080 Audio as a medium has its limitations. So I'm just 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:00.639 going to describe Rebecca's face at this moment. Her eyes 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:04.639 are wide, she's blushing a little, like someone who's been caught. 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:10.240 Her expression is a mixture of awe and surprise and 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:17.320 bewilderment with just a touch of horror. To be honest, 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:20.000 neither of us knows what to make of grave dowsing. 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:23.800 Is it a warping of energies, a communing with something 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.919 beyond ourselves? Is it the power of the subconscious or 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:32.760 maybe a well timed fluke. I can't say, but I'm 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:36.320 not sure it matters, because whether or not this is real, 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:42.760 I do believe that there's something mystical about cemeteries, energy 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:47.639 changes places, and is there any type of land that 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:51.919 has seen more emotion over the years than a cemetary? 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:55.960 For Wayne, all this is driven by faith. 0:23:56.840 --> 0:24:02.080 It's not an exact science. Will say, you know it's 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:05.679