1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:02,160 Speaker 1: Bunch of roses. 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 2: Oh yes, this kind of looks like wisteria growing up 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 2: over these two are. 4 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 3: That is definitely whysteria. 5 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 2: It's morning in late April. My producer Rebecca and I 6 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: are in an old cemetery in downtown Jackson, Mississippi, with 7 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: Wayne Lee. Wayne's grandfather was one of the seven thousand 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: former patients buried on the grounds of the Mississippi State Asylum. 9 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: But his grandfather's not buried here. We're in this particular 10 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 2: cemetery for something else. Wayne's a taller guy, early seventies. 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: His full head of snow white hair is a bit 12 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 2: windswept as he heads towards us. Each time we meet him. 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: He has on some variation of hiking pants cinched up 14 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 2: around a plaid, short sleeved shirt. And there's one other 15 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: thing we haven't told you about. 16 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 4: Wayne. I'm Wayne Lee. I'm a dawser. 17 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: If you like me, grew up on reruns of Gilligan's Island. 18 00:00:58,520 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 5: Mister, how what do you think of my new divine 19 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 5: w then you might. 20 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 2: Have a vague idea of what dowsing is. It's an 21 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 2: ancient tradition where practitioners use a forked branch or metal 22 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 2: rods to find things hidden underground, most commonly water underground wells, 23 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: but people dows for all sorts of things, minerals, oil, gemstones, 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: and graves, which is where Wayne comes in. 25 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 3: Wayn is a grave dowser. 26 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: This means he believes he's able to find and identify 27 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: unmarked graves. He takes his direction from two long, thin 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 2: pieces of metal called divining rods. We'll come back to 29 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 2: those later. See The Asylum Cemetery and its thousands of 30 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: unmarked graves was a big story, but the issue of 31 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: unmarked graves and forgotten cemeteries isn't a new one. In 32 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: the South, the landscape is peppered with the graves of 33 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: soldiers from both sides of the Civil War, hastily buried 34 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: at the sites of major battles. And of course there 35 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: were millions of people in slavery on plantations, buried by 36 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: enslavers who weren't eager to spend money on something as 37 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: permanent or respectful as a granite headstone. But time is 38 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: the biggest enemy of all grave sites, even the marked ones. 39 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: People move away, Rain, humidity, and sun wipe out the 40 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: landscape's memory. Kudzoo and BlackBerry vines topple and bury any 41 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: markers that are left. 42 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 4: Well. I don't want to see anyone disrespected. I'll work 43 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 4: in a lot of cemeteries, cleaning up cemeteries. They're not 44 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 4: my relatives, They're just people that have been forgotten. And 45 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 4: by using the divining rods, I can help find people. 46 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 4: Sometimes their headstones are just under the surface. I can 47 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 4: find them and upright them to show respect to those people. 48 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 4: These are just forgotten souls, and I want to do 49 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 4: everything I can to try to write that. 50 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: It's like doctor Didlake said in our first episode, honoring 51 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: the dead is baked into the Southern ethos so Waine. 52 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 2: He keeps busy, and he doesn't discriminate. He answers the 53 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: call of Civil War buffs that day. 54 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 4: I think eleven soldiers and they were in a line, 55 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 4: just like a trench. 56 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: He works with the descendants of people enslaved by plantation 57 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: owners in the Confederacy. 58 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 4: Maybe it's because my ancestors had slaves, so I almost 59 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 4: felt like they're reaching out to me, Hey, you know, 60 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 4: help us out. I made crosses for every person that 61 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 4: I found in that cemetery and marked it and had 62 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 4: the names inscribed in the days they were born and died. 63 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 4: And my hope is that someday, when somebody's trying to 64 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 4: their ancestors, that was a slave might run across that. 65 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 4: That's my hope. I'm just showing respect. 66 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 3: Respect. 67 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: Wayne's own grandfather was a patient at the State Asylum, 68 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: which means that his body lies right now in an 69 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 2: unmarked grave. His burial nearly one hundred years ago might 70 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 2: sound like distant past, but for Wayne, that lack of 71 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: resolution in his grandfather's story remains an open wound, and 72 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: he's looking for a sense of closure. 73 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 4: I can walk around the room and say, father, can 74 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 4: you direct me to Larius, Father, please direct. 75 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 5: Me to Larius. 76 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 4: Oh please us. 77 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 3: I'm Laris and Campbell. 78 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: And this is under Yazoo Clay, the site of the 79 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 2: old Asylum, the site that's now the Medical Center for 80 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 2: the University of Mississippi, holds seven thousand unmarked graves. That's 81 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 2: seven thousand lives lived and tens of thousands more lives 82 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: connected to those. So how did this cemetery get forgotten? 83 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: The first bodies were buried at that site in the 84 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: middle of the eighteen hundreds, and for the next half 85 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: century plus, the story of this graveyard proceeded in a 86 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: straight line. Patients were interred, markers were laid, some stone, 87 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 2: mostly wood, and the cemetery grew, often tended to and 88 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: maintained by people in the asylum. So when the asylum 89 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: closed in nineteen thirty five and the state transferred those 90 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: patients to the new hospital outside of Jackson, the trajectory shifted. 91 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 2: Now the cemetery didn't belong to the hospital. There was 92 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 2: no hospital there. It became part of the fabric of Jackson. 93 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 2: The best glimpse I've gotten of the asylum in those 94 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: years was from the writer you Dora Welty, who was 95 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 2: also a great. 96 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 3: Photographer, and the foreground of her. 97 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: Photo is waste high grass. Behind that a thick jumble 98 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 2: of tall trees, and right in the center, peeking through 99 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 2: a gap in the branches, looms the decaying turret of 100 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 2: the old asylum, isolated, haunting, beautiful. The state tore down 101 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: what remained of the building in the nineteen fifties. By then, 102 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: the cemetery had been swallowed by the woods from Welty's photograph, 103 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 2: and Jackson residents began to find other uses for it. 104 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 6: And you know, for a long time people in the 105 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 6: community knew that there was a cemetery there. You know, 106 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 6: it comes up again and again when I talked to 107 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 6: people who live in this area, they're like, oh, yeah, 108 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 6: when I was a teenager, I rode horses there. Or 109 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 6: it apparently used to be the place where people would 110 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 6: go parking. 111 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 2: For those of you who've never been to a shop, 112 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: that's sixty speak for a makeout session in a car. 113 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 2: And that wasn't the only thing people got up to 114 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: in the woods. 115 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 6: I know that there was a moonshine operation that got 116 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 6: busted back in there at one point. There were reports 117 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 6: of a lot of vandalism, you know, just people hanging 118 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 6: out doing stuff they shouldn't do. 119 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: The woods were home to plenty of grated activities too. 120 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 2: Kids would explore, adults would take long walks under the trees. 121 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 3: One of those is Bill Lee. 122 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 2: He's a cousin of Wayne's, the descendant and gravedolz Aer. 123 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: Bill's lived in the Jackson area for over sixty years 124 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: and he's a history buff the way that. 125 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 3: A lot of older Southern men are. 126 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 5: Well. I lead tours in Normandy. Oh really, yeah, I 127 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 5: got a tour in company. 128 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 7: I am pleased that your children are interested in World 129 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:53,239 Speaker 7: War two. 130 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 3: They are very interested. 131 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 5: Well, that's fantastic. 132 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: Bill lives in a lakeside condo outside of Jackson. We'd 133 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: gone to his place to meet up with Wayne, who 134 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: driven down from North Carolina, but it turned out that 135 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,239 Speaker 2: Bill also had something relevant to this story. It sits 136 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: by his front steps, right where other condo owners would 137 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: place a stone, pelican or hang an anchor. A headstone, 138 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: white marble, maybe eighteen inches high, a foot or so across, 139 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: an inch thick, propped up right by the front door. 140 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: The story for how he got it starts more than 141 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: half a century ago, on a walk through those woods 142 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 2: with his young son. 143 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 5: We'd just go walking in the woods and we parked 144 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 5: somewhere around there, and I thought it was just as 145 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 5: far as just a wooded area over there. He was 146 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 5: so small he couldn't walk. I had to put him 147 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 5: up on. 148 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 7: Neck and we just started walking, and all of a 149 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 7: sudden I looked down and there was a headstone. I said, 150 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 7: wait a minute, what is this? And all of a sudden, 151 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 7: and I walked a bit further and I started looking 152 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 7: the hall around and there were scores of headstones over 153 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 7: a sprawling area. I said, this is a big cemetery. 154 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 2: Now, these stone markers weren't on every grave. Most patients 155 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: were buried with painted wooden markers. Families with means could 156 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: pay extra for stone. 157 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 7: It was like a forest, and there was not a 158 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 7: lot of underbrush because those tree canopies kept that sunlight 159 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 7: from the grounds. I could see the whole cemetery, see 160 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 7: all those markers out there, scores of them. Well, what 161 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 7: do they say, seven thousand bodies out there or more? 162 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: Being a history buff the image of the cemetery stayed 163 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: was built. It felt wrong that, in the space of 164 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 2: just over thirty years, all these graves in the center 165 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 2: of his city could just be forgotten, especially after he 166 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: heard that the state had plans to remove the remaining 167 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: stone markers. By the way, I haven't been able to 168 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 2: find any record of this plan in the state archives 169 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: or newspapers, but other people have told me they heard 170 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: about it too, and the headstones have been gone for decades. 171 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: So Bill and a friend stage to rescue. 172 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 7: I said, I don't want to be able to tell people, yes, 173 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,359 Speaker 7: that's a cemetery out there, and yes they were markers, 174 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 7: and here's the evidence of it right here. 175 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 5: Because I knew it. First of all, I said, I 176 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 5: can't take them all. 177 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 7: If I could, I would have taken them all, okay, 178 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 7: But I said I. 179 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 5: Can take one. I can do that. 180 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 7: So this is the one I'm going to take right here. 181 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 7: And I just wanted to save it for posterity. Said yeah, hey, 182 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 7: you say they didn't no cemeteries, there were no markers. 183 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 4: But here's one right here. 184 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 7: I got evidence, SOAVI it for. 185 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: Goodness shop That evidence has followed Bill to every house 186 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: he's lived in since. When we paid Bill a visit 187 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 2: at his condo. It was the first thing Wayne pointed out, this. 188 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 4: Is the first evidence I was telling you about. 189 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, can. 190 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 4: You imagine the first time I met Billy and I 191 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 4: come to his house and I said, what are you 192 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 4: doing with the headstone? 193 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 3: Will you read the headstone to me? 194 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 4: This is Timothy o'reardon died May the thirtieth, eighteen ninety three, 195 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 4: aged sixty three years And Laida she checked it out, 196 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 4: and he was a patient there and he was buried 197 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 4: in the cemetery. 198 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 3: And it's a good shape it is. 199 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 4: It's sitting there for since in the seventies. 200 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 3: I mean, that's been out. 201 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: I reckon, right, Yeah, years thirty years old. Bill this 202 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: was a rescue mission to protect his state's history, even 203 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 2: if the state itself I might not. 204 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 3: See it that way. 205 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: It's unclear why the headstones would be moved. Institutional memory 206 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: on this is surprisingly short in a state that still 207 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: celebrates Confederate History Month. I did hear some markers had 208 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 2: been broken, and there were concerns about vandalism. Regardless of 209 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: the reason, the results the same. The headstones are gone. 210 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 2: The wooden markers went the way of the Yazoo clay, 211 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: and the memories were buried with them. The morning after 212 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: we saw the headstone at Bill Lee's condo, we headed 213 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: over to Greenwood Cemetery to meet up with Wayne for 214 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 2: a dowsing demonstration. The cemetery sits in the middle of 215 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: downtown Jackson, a small sea of tall waving grass and 216 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: old shade trees and view of the state capitol. We 217 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: waited for Wayne under a live oak. The sun was dapple, 218 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: the birds were the mowers were in full swing, so 219 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: you may hear one or two of those. Once Wayne 220 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: pulled up and it's bright blue. Prius, it was down 221 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:09,599 Speaker 2: to business. 222 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 7: To go. 223 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 8: You have a. 224 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 3: Way you like to get started. 225 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 4: Or yeah, and I'm going to do a little demonstration 226 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 4: with the divining rods. 227 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: Wayne's dowsing materials consist of two thin steel rods bent 228 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: into an L shape. The short end's got a piece 229 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: of PVC pipe around it. That's the part he's holding. 230 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 2: The PVC means he's not touching the metal, that it 231 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: can move free and clear. 232 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 4: And I like this to be able to move freely 233 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 4: that way. You know, if he's spent all the way around, 234 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 4: I'm not touching the metal at all, And so I 235 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 4: don't want anybody thinking, yeah, he's making that turn and 236 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 4: I can't make it turn. 237 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 2: When he locates the grave, the two rods swing toward 238 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 2: his chest and over each other. When he steps off 239 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: the grave, the rods swing back out. It's a dynamic 240 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: X marks the spot kind of operation. If you're wondering 241 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 2: just what the hell kind of metal can do this, 242 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: the answer is any You could take. 243 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 4: A coat hanger. You can be done with a loan. 244 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 4: It can't be done with copper. 245 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: This is just. 246 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 4: Metal that came from like home depot or blows. 247 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: The rods may not need to be endowed with specific qualities, 248 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: but the dowser does. Wayne calls this a gift granted 249 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: by his creator. It's one he said, became apparent the 250 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: first time he picked up divining rods, which surprised even him. 251 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 2: Real dowsers, he explains, are rare. 252 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 4: It was very scary for me. 253 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 5: I stopped. 254 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 4: I looked around. I'm like, am I going nuts? Nobody 255 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 4: wants to think about that. But the thing that has 256 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 4: happened from me by using the divining rods, it has 257 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 4: strengthened my faith. It has told me that just because 258 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 4: you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not real. And 259 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 4: there's so much in this world I think that we 260 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 4: don't know and we don't know about. It's told me 261 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 4: that we all have a creator, no matter what you 262 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 4: want to call you a creator, where you want to 263 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 4: call it God or Buddha or whatever, we have a 264 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 4: creator that's in charge and the miracles that happen every day, 265 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 4: just because we don't always know it. I've had several 266 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 4: miracles happened in my life, this being one of them 267 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 4: that I've gained this ability to do this. 268 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 2: When Wayne tells us that he's one of the few 269 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: who can do this, I'm a little skeptical. But Wayne 270 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: is so sweet and earnest that it doesn't feel like 271 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 2: he's trying to pull one over on us. I mean 272 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 2: he offered to demonstrate. 273 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 4: So I'm going to walk over to this first series 274 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 4: of graves. 275 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 2: Here he trapes through the overgrown grass to a line 276 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: of headstones. Then, holding a bent metal rod in each hand, 277 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: he bowed his head. 278 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 4: First of all, I'm just gonna ask God to help 279 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 4: me use these divining rods today. Please let your Holy 280 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 4: Spirit work through me and let me do a good 281 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 4: job with us today. So when I step over a grave, 282 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 4: the rods will cross over. When I step off, the 283 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 4: rods will open up. 284 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 6: Oh. 285 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: He steps over the graves and the rods make an X. 286 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 2: But it's not just the locations of graves. 287 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 4: I was told by a dowser a few years ago 288 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 4: when I first started dowsing, that he could determine the 289 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 4: depths that the person was buried. I've never dug anyone up, 290 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 4: so I don't know that to be a fact. So 291 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 4: first and we'll walk to the grave crosses over, I 292 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 4: wait for it to reopen. When they cross over again, 293 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 4: it's how deep the person is. So the distance from 294 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 4: here to there, which is probably around six feet. 295 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 2: They can point to the head of the body. 296 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 4: Fally, can you direct me to the head of this person? Fally, 297 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 4: can you direct me to the feet of this person. 298 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 3: They can deduce gender on a place. 299 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 4: One rod over her. If it's a woman, the rod 300 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 4: would turn toward her feet. If it's a man, the 301 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 4: rough to turn toward the head. 302 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: And in one of the more awe inspiring feats, they 303 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: can even lead Wayne to a specific person. 304 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:52,239 Speaker 4: Let's say, ask for Mary Louise. Father, I'm looking for 305 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 4: Mary Louise. Can you help me find Mary Louise? And 306 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 4: it's not going to cross over again until I get 307 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 4: to Mary Louise, Mary Louise. But I have the confidence 308 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 4: and God has revealed to me that I can find 309 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 4: people only even know who they are. 310 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: Skepticism aside, it's easy to see how the ability to 311 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: not just locate but identify graves could be useful, especially 312 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 2: when you have something like a state owned site with 313 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 2: seven thousand unmarked graves. In fact, Wayne has dowst at 314 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 2: the Asylum cemetery and he believes he's located his own 315 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 2: grandfather's grave. 316 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 4: When I found my grandfather there to cemetery and they 317 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 4: hadn't started zooming bodies. Yet that was the beginning of 318 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 4: some closure for me. It's like, maybe you forgot about him, 319 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 4: and maybe you didn't put up a marker that's still there. 320 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 4: But I'm going to put up a marker. 321 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 2: As I said, the science here is iffy at best, 322 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 2: and that's at all with the very science based identification 323 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 2: approach of Asylum Hill and the University Medical Center, which 324 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 2: is probably why when the medical Center found out that 325 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: we and Wayne and a bunch of audio equipment were 326 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: heading out to the Asylum Cemetery to record Wayne dowsing 327 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: for his grandfather's grave, they politely but firmly told us 328 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: to leave the tree. 329 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 4: Are you trying to take pictures or something? 330 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,239 Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no no. 331 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 2: We wanted to show us where he believes his grandfather's 332 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 2: grave is. 333 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 6: Oh well, yeah, I'm sorry, but I can't. 334 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 3: He just not talk about it and not like. 335 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: Physically go there, which is how we all wound up 336 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: at the very marked graves of Greenwood Cemetery. But there 337 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 2: is an upside to dowsing at a cemetery where graves 338 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: are marked. There might be confirmation bias, but it's easy 339 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 2: to see if it's working. So I asked if I 340 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 2: could give it a shot. 341 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 3: Does this work for everybody? 342 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 2: Can anybody do you do this? 343 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 4: I've shown several people. Some people can do it, some 344 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 4: people can do it a little bit, some people can't 345 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 4: do it at all. 346 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 3: May I try? 347 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 4: Sure? 348 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 2: Actually it turned out I was one of the people 349 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: in that latter category, that's after the break. 350 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 4: And back up and go come forward to help them 351 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 4: just a little more level, a little more so. 352 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 3: It's not the rod's barely moved. 353 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 2: Maybe this just meant I hadn't mastered the wrist tilt. 354 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 2: I tried adjusting my hands. 355 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 4: I don't think I have you know what, Like I said, 356 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 4: this is swimming and guy, and I said, God, you know, 357 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 4: help me. I always pray before I do it. 358 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 2: I'm gonna have a meditative money to help me, and 359 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: I'm going to try it again. 360 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 3: Sure, I tried again. 361 00:20:58,440 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 4: I don't think I have it. 362 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 2: Okay, all right, guess the rods moved slightly toward each other. 363 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 3: Over your hand or you're kind of a love. 364 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 4: All right, let's try it. 365 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 2: Maybe that was something, or maybe it was just that 366 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 2: they were sitting inside hollow PVC tubes alas no dice 367 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 2: If this was some sort of gimmick that Wayne was 368 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: pulling off. It was an impressive one. Rebecca, the producer, 369 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 2: seemed to share my doubt, which may be why I 370 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: handed her the rods. Next, do you want to give 371 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 2: it a try? Hand me all this stuff and the headphones. 372 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 4: Now come toward me and get straightened. 373 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 2: Up with me. 374 00:21:53,280 --> 00:22:00,479 Speaker 4: Now walk toward me. Oh all right, I told you alive. 375 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 4: Well that's my asking a question. You can't ask what 376 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 4: a person's head is. But like I said, I pray 377 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 4: and I ask God to help me do this. M 378 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 4: He asked with the with the head of Mary Louise. 379 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: Where's the head of Mary Louise? 380 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 2: Inexplicably, the rod swung clipsed, then open, then around to 381 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 2: point the way to Mary Louise mcgheee h. 382 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 3: Wow. I think I think you might be a natural. 383 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 4: You got it. You're the first person that I know 384 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 4: of that has done this. 385 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 3: Well, no, you're like a natural. 386 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: Audio as a medium has its limitations. So I'm just 387 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 2: going to describe Rebecca's face at this moment. Her eyes 388 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 2: are wide, she's blushing a little, like someone who's been caught. 389 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 2: Her expression is a mixture of awe and surprise and 390 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 2: bewilderment with just a touch of horror. To be honest, 391 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: neither of us knows what to make of grave dowsing. 392 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: Is it a warping of energies, a communing with something 393 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 2: beyond ourselves? Is it the power of the subconscious or 394 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: maybe a well timed fluke. I can't say, but I'm 395 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: not sure it matters, because whether or not this is real, 396 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: I do believe that there's something mystical about cemeteries, energy 397 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 2: changes places, and is there any type of land that 398 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 2: has seen more emotion over the years than a cemetary? 399 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: For Wayne, all this is driven by faith. 400 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 4: It's not an exact science. Will say, you know it's 401 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 4: not real or you're making it happen. I'm not, but 402 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 4: I can file it up. You know it's real and 403 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 4: it works, but I can file it up. I don't 404 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 4: do it for money. It's good to help you. I'm 405 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 4: doing to try to show some respect for those people 406 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 4: that are buried out there. Not just my grandfather, but 407 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 4: for everyone that's buried out there. 408 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: All this premised on the absolute belief that his God 409 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 2: won't lead him astray, that the Rod's point and cross true. 410 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 4: It's like another realm out there. 411 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 2: This is just. 412 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 4: Temporary, because I know when his voice told me to 413 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 4: do this, do that. You know it's real, but anybody 414 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 4: wants to believe it or not. 415 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 2: There's something about a physical site, a place where you 416 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 2: can imagine your loved one is present. But finding this 417 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 2: place wasn't the end of Wayne's search. 418 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 3: Well that's nice, that's really beautiful. But this must be 419 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 3: the reservoir. 420 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 4: Kist a bunch of boats. 421 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 2: That brings us back to cousin Bill's condo, the same 422 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: one where we saw that headstone. 423 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 7: Well, listen, welcome to my little adoble. 424 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 3: Thank you, this is wonderful, Thanks so much for hosting. 425 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 2: We sat on two over stuffed plaid chairs in Bill's 426 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 2: living room, looking out over a marina full of pontoon boats. 427 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 2: Wayne so believes in everything that he's doing, not just 428 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: his dowsing, but understanding his grandfather's story, and he wanted 429 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: to get it right for us. He laid out a 430 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: whole spread of newspaper clippings, photos, and articles on Bill's 431 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 2: white tile counter, most of them in sheet protectors. Perched 432 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 2: on a barstool, he bounced his knee as he talked. 433 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 4: The only thing I knew was our grand dator was 434 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 4: put in a middle institution, and that they said he 435 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 4: was crazy. I didn't have all the diagnosis and all that. 436 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 4: I didn't know him, But then, you know, was there 437 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 4: a problem. I feel like even though the hospital did 438 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 4: all they could to help take care of him, I 439 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 4: feel like they did they should have kept better records. 440 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 4: It shouldn't be that years go by and people say, well, 441 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 4: we didn't even know they were there. We just build 442 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 4: over them. You know, it's not important. They're dead. It 443 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 4: didn't matter. 444 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: We started out talking about Wayne's grandfather, the little Wayne 445 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 2: had been told about him. The family's narrative had always 446 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: been somewhat simple. Quayne's grandfather wasn't crazy, he was starving. 447 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: To the modern ear, maybe that sounds like denial, but 448 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 2: a century ago in rural Mississippi, it was real. Historically, 449 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 2: there were lots of reasons people were called insane, and 450 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 2: the causes of what we consider mental illness weren't all 451 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: the same as they are now. One of the biggest 452 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 2: drivers of patients to the state hospital wasn't even what 453 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: we now consider mental illness. 454 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 3: It was malnutrition. 455 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 4: Well, since he died in thirty two and I wasn't 456 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 4: born until fifty two. I didn't know a lot about him, 457 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,120 Speaker 4: you know, had met him. All that I knew was that, 458 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 4: you know what our mother had told us when she 459 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 4: was eighteen. They were very poor sharecroppers in Mississippi. There 460 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 4: were five children. They didn't have any food to eat, 461 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 4: and he basically gave them his food. He got really sick, 462 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 4: He got very delusional. He had swords on his hands 463 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 4: and feet, and they didn't know what was wrong with him. 464 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 4: They were supported, they'd have a car, they couldn't take 465 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 4: him to a hospital. And so the story that we 466 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 4: were told was that a neighbor contacted the sheriff and said, 467 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 4: you need to take this man to the hospital. Said, 468 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 4: you know, he's very paranoid. He thinks someone's coming to 469 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 4: get him. So the sheriff came, and then my mother 470 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 4: was the oldest, she was eighteen. She signed the paperwork 471 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 4: for the sheriff to take him to the mental hospital. 472 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 4: According to my mom, they didn't know he was going 473 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 4: to a mental hospital. She thought they were just taking 474 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 4: him to the hospital. And the story that we always 475 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 4: heard was they didn't find out until like six months 476 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 4: later that he had died. Affected her a lot, and 477 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 4: it also caused some risks in the family from what 478 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 4: I understand, because she supposedly signed the paperwork for the 479 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 4: sheriff to take her father. The youngest child was ten, 480 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 4: and my mom always said that some of the younger 481 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 4: ones held it against her, that you know, she'd sent 482 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 4: her father off and need to come. 483 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 3: Back, and that was it. 484 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 2: The end of his grandfather's life stayed shrouded in mystery. 485 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,479 Speaker 2: But in the nineteen seventies, Wayne's brother decided his family 486 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 2: needed answers. 487 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 4: My brother James Lee called him Tom. He had polio 488 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 4: when he was three. It always made him a little 489 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 4: more of a homebody. He had got into studying all 490 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 4: of our family history. When he was a teenager. He 491 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 4: was writing the hospital. I've got a copy of a 492 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 4: letter that he said in seventy seven, which he wouldn't 493 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 4: have been a teenager then, but not far from it, 494 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 4: asking about our grandfather. And he had called down there 495 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 4: to the hospital and asked about our father and grandfather 496 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 4: and they said, well, we don't know where he is. 497 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 4: We can't send you any medical records against the law, 498 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 4: and that he might be buried under one of these 499 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 4: buildings out here. Owner a street we don't know. And 500 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 4: so my brother was pretty persistent about that through the years, 501 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 4: and he got me interested probably about fifteen years ago. 502 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 4: And so my brother passed away two years ago some 503 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 4: kind to kind of carry on what he had started. 504 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 4: It was very important, a lot more important to him 505 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 4: all those years that he's spent on it that it 506 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 4: was to me. I was just a kid and I 507 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 4: didn't didn't know. 508 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: At this point, seventy five years had passed and they 509 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 2: had nothing to go off of but their mother's teenage memories. 510 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: Wayne knew the answers about his grandfather existed. They lay 511 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 2: in those medical records his brother had tried to get 512 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 2: back in the seventies. 513 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 4: In every step of the way, they were always said no, no, no, 514 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 4: we're not giving out any records. 515 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 2: Knowing the answers were there, only to have someone say 516 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: you can't have them. It ate at Wayne, but getting 517 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 2: them would require waiting into an ethical and bureaucratic mess 518 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: only the Deep South can cook up. This wasn't just 519 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 2: some clerk being difficult to understand why Wayne couldn't get 520 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: those records. We have to talk about how the state 521 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 2: views the bodies laid to rest at Asylum Hill for starters. 522 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: They don't call them bodies. Here's doctor Ralph Didlake, the 523 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 2: mind behind the Asylum Hill Project. 524 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: We have, in a way inherited these patients, and we 525 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: want to care for in the very best way we can. 526 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: We need to set a standard, we need to be 527 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: an example, and we need to treat these as our patients. 528 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 2: This perspective, though, complicates things because the medical center can't 529 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 2: share patient records without patient consent, which presents a problem 530 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: in this case because the patients have all passed on. 531 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: Even in the pediatric world, parents don't give consent for 532 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: their children. They give permission for their children. That's the 533 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: modern bioethics theories at the moment. 534 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 2: On Mississippi politics for years, so I'm used to state 535 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 2: institutions hiding information behind arcane laws and statutes, and I 536 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 2: can imagine why they'd want to keep these records hidden. 537 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 2: In many cases, they won't paint a rosy picture of 538 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 2: life and the state asylum. So I was pretty surprised 539 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 2: to find out that the push to unveil these medical 540 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: records came from a state sponsored institution, the Asylum Hill Project. 541 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: But if you want to release records, first you've got 542 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 2: to find someone to release them too. That means finding 543 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 2: next of ken. How exactly do you do that? When 544 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 2: all the graves are unmarked and the last one was 545 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 2: Doug more than eighty years ago, that's. 546 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 3: When we come back. 547 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: The largest art museum in the state, the Mississippi Museum 548 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 2: of Art, connects Mississippi to the world and the power 549 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: of art to the power of community. Located in downtown Jackson, 550 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: the museum's permanent collection is free to the public. National 551 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 2: and international exhibitions rotate throughout the year, allowing visitors to experience. 552 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 3: Works from around the world. The gardens at. 553 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 2: Expansive Lawn at the Mississippi Museum of Art are home 554 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 2: to art installations and a variety of events for all ages. 555 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: Plan your visit today at Msmuseum Art dot org. 556 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 3: That's MS Museum art dot org. 557 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 2: The University of Mississippi Medical Center in Jackson is heading 558 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: up an archaeological excavation as. 559 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 9: Part of a program called the Asylum Hill Project, and 560 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 9: today representatives from a UMC came to the Wayne County 561 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 9: Library to invite locals to get involved in that project. 562 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: We have spoken at libraries and rotary clubs and anyone 563 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: who would stand still and listen all over the state 564 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: to try to get the message out so they can 565 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: inform us and we can inform them. 566 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 2: The Asylum Hill Project basically went on a statewide tour 567 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 2: across Mississippi, hell bent on tracking down any descendants they could. 568 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 2: If you'd even heard a whisper in your family of 569 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 2: someone who'd been sent to the Old Asylum, they wanted 570 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: to talk. 571 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 5: To you one. 572 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: They have the old history of the families, They have 573 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: the documents, they have the photographs. We would like to 574 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: archive all of that. They need to sign off on 575 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: what we are doing, so we have that community engagement piece. 576 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: We also want to be fully transparent. We don't want 577 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: anyone in any part of the state to feel that 578 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,919 Speaker 1: we're up here doing this without informing everyone. 579 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 2: This is where that Southern ethos comes back in that 580 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 2: reverence for the grave. 581 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 5: We want this. 582 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: To bring these people who have been in this unmarked cemetery. 583 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: We want to bring them back into the community in 584 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: some way, and we think that preserving those stories, if 585 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: the family desires, that helps us fill in the gaps 586 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: of the story of the institution and memorializes them in 587 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: some way. We have the ethical standing to do what 588 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: we're doing. Have we entered into an ethical calculus, Absolutely, 589 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 1: because the needs of our future patients are our ethical 590 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: burden and we have to weigh that against the interests 591 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: of the individuals buried there in the descendant community. 592 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 2: But even after clearing the ethical hurdles, there were still 593 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 2: legal issues. If you've ever filled out a form in 594 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 2: a doctor's office, you've probably heard of HIPPA. It's that 595 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 2: law that keeps medical records from being seen by anyone 596 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: who is in either the patient or the provider. That 597 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 2: stays in effect until the patient's been dead for fifty years. 598 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 2: Mississippi had a second law in the books for mental 599 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 2: health records that shielded them like until the end of time. 600 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 3: Hey, privacy is privacy. 601 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 6: In order to get individual patient records, they had to 602 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 6: sign an affidavid and have a witness and all of 603 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,320 Speaker 6: that that they are the people who should be getting 604 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 6: these records, you know. And that's just something that was 605 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 6: just worked I mean recently, like within the past two 606 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 6: months that we've worked out. The Center for Bioethics and 607 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 6: Medical Humanities does have custody now of many of the 608 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 6: old individual patient records. I'm very sensitive about those. I 609 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 6: try not to gawk. Would I want anybody looking at 610 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 6: my mental health records? No, and so I try to 611 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 6: be very respectful. 612 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 2: And then there was the logistical quagmire. There are more 613 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 2: than one thousand boxes of records, all jumbled together, no 614 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 2: rhyme or reason, newly rescued from a storage unit. The 615 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 2: only way to parse through them all is to parse 616 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 2: through them all, box by box, page by page, and 617 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 2: not just anybody can do it. Remember our old friend Hippa. 618 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 2: Some of the patients whose records are in those boxes 619 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 2: could have died in the last fifty years. So in 620 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 2: order to look through any of these records, you've got 621 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 2: to have special Hippa training. So for many of the 622 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 2: families of these former patients, the suspense will be building 623 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 2: for a while. 624 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 6: You know, I'm very sensitive about like who gets to 625 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 6: see those But they're all together, they're not separated by years. 626 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 6: I think I estimated that it would take five years, 627 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 6: given our current staffing, to just get everything indexed and separated. 628 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 2: Wayne, though, is one of the lucky ones. 629 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 4: And so finally a month ago, I get a copy 630 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 4: of those medical records. So I'm getting closure. 631 00:37:58,360 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 3: In terms of length. 632 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 2: His grandfather's file fell somewhere in the middle sixty two pages. 633 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 2: He'd laid them all out for us to see on 634 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,720 Speaker 2: his cousin Bill's kitchen counter. 635 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 3: What is legible in them? 636 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 10: Is there anything that you think is like worth. 637 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 3: Sharing with us? 638 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll share it all with you. What's legible. And 639 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 4: some of it wasn't legible until I went through and 640 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 4: connected the dots. 641 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 2: These were files from the nineteen thirties. The originals were 642 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 2: handwritten by nurses and doctors, and nurses and doctors in 643 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 2: a hurry. Add on to that the fact that they 644 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 2: were digitized in the earliest days of scanning technology. And 645 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,320 Speaker 2: you realize Wayne wasn't speaking figuratively when he said connect 646 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 2: the dots. Wayne painstakingly went through the records, cross referencing 647 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 2: with Laida to figure out medical terms from the era. 648 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 4: And one of the things that is said there at 649 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 4: the end of a couple of the reports, like where 650 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 4: the nurse said, you know, he had a good day, 651 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 4: he had a bad day or whatever. A couple of 652 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 4: times they said acted stupid today. There was a clinical 653 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 4: term that he just didn't agnrmal today. Most of the 654 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 4: days they said he was well they said from the 655 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 4: beginning that he causing problem. He was very paranoid. He 656 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 4: wouldn't get out of there. He couldn't get out of bed. 657 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 4: And it says large stool, that kind of thing, small stool, 658 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 4: visually bad day, restless, and then you get to hear 659 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 4: one three bath giving back dress, sleeping, very restless. Sure 660 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 4: what that is? Expired? He had a half glass of 661 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 4: milk inspired at one on the third. 662 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 2: A man's death noted in the same breath as the 663 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 2: sleeping habits. But in spite of the faint writing, the 664 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,320 Speaker 2: outdated vocabulary, all the things that made these records almost indecipherable, 665 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 2: Wayne still got the answer that he needed the most one. 666 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 2: It turns out the state had tried to give Wayne's 667 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 2: brother back in the seventies. 668 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 4: This is from the hospital to my brother James Teelee. 669 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,359 Speaker 4: Dear mister Lee, the Medical Record Department has received your 670 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 4: letter concerning John Benedict Whitfield. We regret regret that we 671 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 4: will not be able to provide a copy of your 672 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 4: grandfather's hospital record, as State Statute forty one twenty one 673 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 4: ninety seven prohibits release of medical records. However, we can 674 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 4: understand your family's concern with the circumstances of your grandfather's death. 675 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 4: The cause of this was peleagra, which is a clinic 676 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 4: deficiency syndrome and of course is not an inherited disease. 677 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 4: It may be helpful for you to know that the 678 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 4: record indicates that JB. Whitfield's father, Joseph Whitfield, died at 679 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,240 Speaker 4: the age of ninety of old age. It has also 680 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 4: stated that there was no history of mental illness in 681 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 4: the family. We hope the information would be meaningful to 682 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 4: you and your family. Sincerely, Fay Thomas, Medical Record Department. 683 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 2: Cause of death polagra. Like Fay's letter mentioned, it was 684 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 2: a nutrient deficiency, not a mental illness. We'll come back 685 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 2: to palagra later on. It plays a large role in 686 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 2: the old asylum story. As for Wayne, a palagra diagnosis 687 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 2: was sweet, sweet relief. 688 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 4: See, I grew up with a little bit of the 689 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 4: stigma of they thought your grandfather was crazy. They put 690 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 4: him in an insane asylum. You know, was he was? 691 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 8: He not? 692 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 4: Our mom said he wasn't crazy, he was just starving. 693 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 4: And so it was great to get the medical records 694 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 4: a month ago, which clearly says he has plagra. He 695 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 4: had symptoms of that that caused these effects. There was 696 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 4: no male illness in the family, and so you know, 697 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 4: there's some closure with that. 698 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 2: He sounded relieved on us that he was in there 699 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 2: for differently, Okay, Wayne had driven about twelve hours straight 700 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 2: from Durham, North Carolina to Jackson, Mississippi, just to speak 701 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 2: with us. He wanted to make sure his grandfather's story 702 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,360 Speaker 2: got told. But then Wayne told us. 703 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 4: His I always knew that my youngest son had some issues. 704 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 4: He was a really sweet kid, good kid, but always 705 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 4: had a fear that maybe he had inherited something from 706 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,919 Speaker 4: his mom. He was a teenager, he started developing mintal 707 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 4: illness and became homeless when he was like seventeen eighteen. 708 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 4: We lived on the street, off and on. My first 709 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:23,359 Speaker 4: wife had mental problems, Her mother had mental problems, her 710 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 4: grandmother had mental problems, and one time she kind of 711 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 4: threw it up to me, where your grandfather had mental problems? 712 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 2: Like So, anyway, Wayne and his first wife had children together, 713 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 2: two boys. When those boys were thirteen and nine years old, 714 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 2: Wayne got full custody. It was the end of a rough, 715 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 2: brutal divorce. 716 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,720 Speaker 4: I knew that she definitely had the mental illness because 717 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 4: she would make up all this stuff in her mind, 718 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 4: she would believe it. But anyway, I've had to deal 719 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 4: with some madal illness. 720 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,479 Speaker 2: Things settled down for a while after that, but once 721 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 2: Wayne's youngest hit his late teenage years, things took a turn. 722 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 4: He robbed a bank when he was nineteen. So he 723 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 4: walked in the bank, handed them a note, said I 724 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,359 Speaker 4: need eighty five thousand dollars and they laughed and said, yeah, 725 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 4: me too. He said, no, I think you might have 726 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 4: misunderstood me. I need eighty five thousand dollars. This is 727 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 4: a hold up, and I have a weapon. Well he didn't, 728 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 4: but anyway, they gave him the money. He went to 729 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 4: prison for three and a half years his terrible experience. 730 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 2: When as sun got out, he emerged with a diagnosis 731 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 2: paranoid schizophrenia. Wayne learned that his son had been hearing 732 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 2: voices since his twenties. 733 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 4: If somebody walked in a room, a lot of times, 734 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 4: he would just start laughing and I couldn't figure out 735 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 4: what he was laughing about, And I said, what are 736 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 4: you laughing about? Oh nothing, And it would just be uncontrollable, 737 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:05,439 Speaker 4: and in time, one day it finally came out that 738 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,919 Speaker 4: like if a woman walked in the room, he said, 739 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 4: the voice would say, boy, she has big And so 740 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,720 Speaker 4: then it made sense that every time we went somewhere 741 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 4: in public somebody comes walking up, he just looked and 742 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 4: he'd laugh and he put his head down. And then 743 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 4: sometimes he just had to walk out of the room. 744 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 4: But he was hearing voices. 745 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 2: The time Wayne's son spent in prison did nothing to 746 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 2: help his mental illness. 747 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 4: Prisons are basically to punish, and so he got out. 748 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 4: I got him Section eight housing and got him more jobs, 749 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,439 Speaker 4: but nothing ever lasted. You know, got him medical care, 750 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,040 Speaker 4: but you can't make somebody take a medication. If they 751 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 4: have mental problems. You know, hopefully you can help them, 752 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,279 Speaker 4: but you can't make them. 753 00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 2: Wayne's son went in and out of prison, off then 754 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,359 Speaker 2: back on to the street. This went on for more 755 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 2: than a decade. At the end of it, Wayne's son 756 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,760 Speaker 2: was killed by another man near his age, also suffering 757 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,240 Speaker 2: from mental illness. 758 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 4: And when he died, you know, that night it was 759 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,800 Speaker 4: terrible and I was praying about it, and I couldn't sleep, 760 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 4: and I said, God, I said, don't let me go 761 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 4: to the dark side. Don't let me be better, help 762 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 4: me through this, and I got through it. I had 763 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,879 Speaker 4: no remorse toward that family, toward the man that did it. 764 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,880 Speaker 4: I felt sorry for him and his family because it 765 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,279 Speaker 4: could have been my son. That could have been the 766 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:50,439 Speaker 4: other way around. And so that's how I have That's 767 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,400 Speaker 4: why I guess I have certain feelings about me wellness. 768 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 4: It's because I've moved through it with people. Never in 769 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 4: my family other than my son, but with my ex 770 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 4: wife and her family. Illness is a tough thing. But 771 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 4: always knew, you know, we had been hearing that Pelegro 772 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,239 Speaker 4: was involved in it, but I just never got it 773 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 4: official until you know, reading all these medical records and 774 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 4: just from the research that I had done on Palegro, 775 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:31,280 Speaker 4: you know, it said it causes these problems, and yeah, 776 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,479 Speaker 4: and whether he was or he wasn't, I've never looked 777 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,319 Speaker 4: at it like, well, that's not a reflection on me. 778 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:43,879 Speaker 4: But like you said, it could be traced or passed down. 779 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,719 Speaker 2: So when you said that your ex wife used to say, well, 780 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:49,560 Speaker 2: you know you have this in your family. Was it 781 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 2: in the context of your son that she would say 782 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:52,959 Speaker 2: that or. 783 00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:01,760 Speaker 4: Yeah? And it's like, yeah, that's. 784 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 3: The past, that's the past. 785 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 2: The past that can be left in the ground or 786 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,280 Speaker 2: brought back to life that can bring pain or bring comfort, 787 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 2: or a mix of both. Wayne's closure doesn't just lie 788 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,920 Speaker 2: in the diagnosis and how that connects to present and 789 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,360 Speaker 2: future generations of Wayne's family. That lies in those brief 790 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,840 Speaker 2: moments in notes the nurses outlined in knowing that the 791 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 2: asylum staff, even with their limited resources, had tried to 792 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 2: help his grandfather, it showed that this man hadn't been 793 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,880 Speaker 2: locked away and forgotten. And what does it mean to 794 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,279 Speaker 2: have like for somebody who has died, what does it 795 00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 2: mean for them to have a memorial. 796 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:52,759 Speaker 10: Just acknowledging that that person r relative than that this 797 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,880 Speaker 10: was their life, This is when they were born and died, 798 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 10: and this is where they're lived show in respect. 799 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,399 Speaker 2: What is the value if you have died of being 800 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 2: acknowledged by the living? 801 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,320 Speaker 4: I don't think is there anything for the deceased? Maybe 802 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 4: it is, I don't know. 803 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 7: Oh well, It's like Evil Peron when she was dying, 804 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 7: they said what is your greatest wish? 805 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,799 Speaker 5: And she said, I want to be remembered. I want 806 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:24,719 Speaker 5: to be remembered. 807 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 7: That's the reason I'm putting a stone over in this 808 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,320 Speaker 7: cemetery over here, that it is. 809 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,720 Speaker 5: We all want to be remembered for goodness sake. 810 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,719 Speaker 4: And I thought, you know, this is the man I 811 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,799 Speaker 4: never met. You know, I'm not sure about the afterlife, 812 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,359 Speaker 4: and I'm not sure if he's up in heaven he's 813 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,399 Speaker 4: cheering me on. But in the last couple of days, 814 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,120 Speaker 4: I was thinking, you know, maybe he's just there saying, hey, guys, 815 00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,200 Speaker 4: this is my grandson. He's trying to tell the world 816 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,239 Speaker 4: that we're here and where I am. And I love 817 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:01,719 Speaker 4: them for that. 818 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,200 Speaker 2: As Southerners were predisposed to make meaning from our histories, 819 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:13,279 Speaker 2: probably more than we should. Our regions unwillingness to move on, 820 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,239 Speaker 2: our tendency to continually valorize the past its offen our 821 00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:23,359 Speaker 2: Achilles heel. But on a small scale like one cemetery 822 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:28,080 Speaker 2: and it's keepers. Maybe holding the past close can help 823 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:33,239 Speaker 2: you move on Wherever you believe people go when they're gone, 824 00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,560 Speaker 2: whatever you believe should be done with their remains. What 825 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,240 Speaker 2: better memorial than to tell their stories, to remember their lives. 826 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,400 Speaker 6: So Initially, of course, what brought about this project was 827 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,000 Speaker 6: the need for UMMC to reclaim the land, but it 828 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 6: has turned into more of a commitment. I think to 829 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,960 Speaker 6: tell these stories, to tell the stories of the descendants, 830 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,439 Speaker 6: and a lot of people that we're trying to give 831 00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:07,759 Speaker 6: voice to the patients. Giving voice seems to pushy to me. 832 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,759 Speaker 6: I think if we are quiet enough and we learn 833 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,960 Speaker 6: enough about what was going on, we could hear their voices. 834 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,600 Speaker 6: We don't need to give them voice. The voices are there. 835 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:22,560 Speaker 2: The voices are there, and sometimes the story they tell 836 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,239 Speaker 2: it's not the one you thought you were going to hear. 837 00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 2: That's next on under Yazuklay. 838 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:36,239 Speaker 4: I mean my suspicion there is the silence is the 839 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,160 Speaker 4: response to the shame, and it gets. 840 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 8: Arried down so deep that any kind of scratch of 841 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:51,440 Speaker 8: the surface bubbles up this uncontrollable emotional response that then 842 00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,840 Speaker 8: has to be tamped down quickly. 843 00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,160 Speaker 2: Under Yazuklay is executive produced by the Mississippi Museum of 844 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,200 Speaker 2: Art in partnership with pod People. It's hosted by me 845 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,680 Speaker 2: Larison Campbell and written and produced by Rebecca Schasson and 846 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:09,080 Speaker 2: myself with help from Angela Yee and Amy Machado, with 847 00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,240 Speaker 2: editing and sound design by Morgan Fus and Erica Wong, 848 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,880 Speaker 2: and thanks to Blue Dot Sessions for music. Special thanks 849 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,759 Speaker 2: to Betsy Bradley at the Mississippi Museum of Art, as 850 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,279 Speaker 2: well as Leida Gibson at the Center for Bioethics and 851 00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,959 Speaker 2: Medical Humanities at the University of Mississippi Medical Center. Visit 852 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,040 Speaker 2: Jackson and Jay and Deny Stein.