WEBVTT - Jonathan Haidt on the Great Rewiring of Childhood 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.640 Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric, and this is next question. 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.800 I got a smartphone when I was twelve years old. 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:19.320 I was in fifth grade. 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:21.280 It was my mom's old phone, so I think I 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:22.400 was like nine or. 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:25.000 Ten, I was fourteen. 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:27.600 As far as like comparing myself to other people, I 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:29.120 think I started doing that a lot more when d 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:31.760 a smartphone and like seeing people are posting. 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.440 Unfortunately, it's kind of like a constant competition. You make 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.479 posts to show people what you're doing, and whether or 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:41.639 not you want to admit it, it's to show that you're 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.760 doing something better than the other person. I think a 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:47.199 lot of it is toxic and it has contributed to 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:49.839 like a lot of negativity. 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:54.680 I cannot wait to hopefully one day get better control 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.480 over my life, because right now, Instagram and TikTok and 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.200 snapchatre'srolling my life like puppeteers. 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:06.160 Do you guys remember that song from Bye Bye Bertie, 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:10.319 the one Paul Lynn sang back in nineteen sixty three. 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:14.720 Why Kevin May like we were perfect in every way? 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:17.959 What's the matter with kids today? 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.800 But go sixty one years later people are wondering the 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:27.000 same thing, what's the matter with kids today? I am 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:30.640 so excited to have one of my favorite people, Jonathan Height, 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.959 here to help us think through what exactly has gone 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:38.199 wrong with young people iPhones and social media and what 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.400 we can all do about it together. As you'll hear, 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:44.880 the solution might be simple, but it is not easy. 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.440 Jonathan has a new book out and it is doing gangbusters. 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:52.960 Clearly he's struck a nerve. It's a deep dive into 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:58.080 how and why and when smartphones changed everything about childhood 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:01.200 and why we might just be at a tipping point 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:12.240 where parents and kids say no Moss. Jonathan Height. Your 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.480 new book is called The Anxious Generation, How the great 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:20.480 rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness. 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.080 I'm so happy to see you and talk to you. 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:27.720 We have been actually communicating during your whole writing process, 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:32.520 and yeah, you sneak a few graphs to me kind 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:35.679 of showing what you were discovering. But before we talk 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:39.360 about the essence of this book, you had great hopes 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.960 for technology when it first surfaced in our lives and 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:47.400 in society writ large. What did you think it would 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:49.320 allow us to do well? 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.200 I was very influenced by a book I read. It 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.519 was written in nineteen ninety nine by Robert Wright called 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.720 non Zero, and it was how he starts with the 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:03.760 history of bacteria and like early life, and whenever life 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:05.840 has found a way to cooperate more, you get an 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.840 explosion of productivity and you never lose it. And so 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.080 life has been stepping up ability to cooperate at larger 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.400 and larger levels forever. And with humans, you know, we 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:19.160 were originally hunter gatherers and tribes battling each other. But 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.600 when you get forms of political organization that you have 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:25.119 communities or towns, you get roads that link. So it's 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:29.080 always connection has always been good in the long run. 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.680 Sometimes there's chaos at first, but it's always good in 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:33.919 the long run. And remember this book comes out, it's 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:36.400 nineteen ninety nine, so you and I remember the nineties. 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.640 It was like, yay, history is over all that crazy 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:41.880 stuff with dictators and wars, like that's all God and 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.600 like it's going to be yeah and that. So then 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:48.160 the Internet comes in around I saw my first web 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.720 browser nineteen ninety four, and it really was like, wow, 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.880 you know, these guys in California, they're giving us godlike powers. 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.680 They are literally giving us omnissions. I can at this moment, 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.040 I can know anything in the whole. It was a 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.200 amazing you know, and I was I was a relatively 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.520 young man at the time, and I loved computers and technology. 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:08.000 I'd worked in computers, so there was enormous techno optimism. 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.400 I certainly was a techno optimist. And this persists all 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:14.720 the way through about twenty eleven twenty twelve, for sure, 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.800 because now we're getting the iPhone, which is magical and amazing. 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.039 We're getting you know, uber like I just press a 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:21.520 button and a taxi appears for me. 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:22.719 Why didn't I think of that? 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.440 So, you know, it was just amazement after amazement, and 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.200 there was a lot of gratitude, and we treated these 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:30.200 guys like gods. 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.600 I know that you had your son at the time, 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.000 I believe was two years old, and you started showing 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.080 him this technology and you marveled at the fact that 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.200 he was able to do the touch screen and swipe 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:47.320 almost instinctively right, and you thought, Wow, this is so cool. 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:48.080 That's exactly. 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:50.960 Was there not a part of you, John that was saying, no, 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:52.359 maybe it's not cool. 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:54.359 No, because you know, it's not that I showed it 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.680 to him. It's that, like every young human being. He 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.440 saw the lights and flashing colors and said, you know, 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:02.839 I phone, I phone. You know, he wanted he desperately 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:04.640 wanted it, and you give it to him, and he 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:06.360 very quickly, you know, learned you touch, you know, you 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:10.360 touch what you want. You know, it's it's very intuitive technology. 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:12.600 And what year was this when so little I. 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:14.240 Got my first iPhone in two thousand and eight, was 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.800 an iPhone two the year after it came out, and 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.640 my son was two at the time, and he, you know, 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:21.760 he could bear. He wasn't even really talking like he 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:23.560 had words, he didn't have sentences yet, but he could 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:25.760 figure out how to move around the iPhone and so 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.160 that's amazing. There's no problem there. And you got to 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.040 remember the original iPhone was just a digital Swiss army knife. 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:34.760 It just you know, if you wanted maps, you had maps. 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:36.760 If you want music, you got music. If you want 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.320 a flashlight, you got a flashlight. There were no notifications, 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.200 there was no app store, there was no social media. 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:45.400 So it was a tool that I pulled out of 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.480 my pocket when I wanted to do something, and so 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.280 it was great. The story in my book is how 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:54.080 everything changes between twenty ten and twenty fifteen. I call 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:58.120 that the great rewiring of childhood because in twenty ten 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:00.800 almost all American kids have a flip phone. They have 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.400 everyone has a cell phone, but it was a dumb 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:05.000 what we now call it dumb was then mostly a 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.120 flip phone which they used to connect to other kids. 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:11.320 And so that's great. Still, technology is wonderful, it's amazing. 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:13.400 You know, the kids are going to be so smart. 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:18.240 Oh by they're all techno whizzes. That's twenty ten. By 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:23.360 twenty fifteen, eighty percent have a smartphone. They've got high 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:25.240 speed data, which they high speed Internet. They didn't have 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.320 it in twenty ten. Mostly they've got a front facing camera, 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:30.279 which wasn't there in twenty ten. It was introduced in 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.960 twenty ten. They have Instagram, which was introduced in twenty ten. 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.120 And so the daily life of a young person in 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.320 twenty ten was still recognizably a human childhood, where technology 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.720 was a tool they used to connect. By twenty fifteen, 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.200 it was not recognizably a human childhood. It was spent 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:51.919 most of the waking hours that were not in school. 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.799 Oh actually, and even hours in school were spent looking 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.560 at their small screen and doing stuff that disconnected them 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:01.640 from the peace people next to them. So that's why 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.359 I say childhood change between twenty ten and twenty fifteen, 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:07.520 and I believe that's the major reason that mental health 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.640 plunged all over the developed world in that period. 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.720 Let's talk about the number of kids who when you 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.760 say they, what ages are you talking about between twenty 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.960 ten and twenty fifteen when these devices became ubiquitous. 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.320 So the thing to focus on is puberty. Puberty begins 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.400 around eleven to thirteen for girls is early puberty, and 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.240 then boys it's a year or two later. And puberty 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:36.120 is so important because that's when the human brain really 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:39.000 speeds up its development. The brain isn't growing very much 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.400 in total volume, that it reaches almost its full volume 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:45.240 by age six. Everything else is about sorting through which 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.160 which neurons are going to stay, which are going to 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.760 get cleaned out, which synapses, which connections between neurons are 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:52.880 going to stay and multiply, and which ones are going 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.320 to disappear. So it's a tuning up process which is 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.640 guided by the experiences that the child is having. So 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.840 if a child is running around a lot and playing 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.720 social games and gossiping and doing all the normal stuff 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.120 of childhood, then those parts of the brain are going 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.680 to wire up sort of in the way that evolution expected. 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.480 But if a kid is spending six hours a day 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:16.720 on video games, that's a very different set of stimulation. 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.560 It's going to lead to different neural development. Boys mostly 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.120 went for video games, or they disproportionally went for video 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:26.240 games and pornography. Girls disproportionately went for social media and 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.400 social media. It just like it's like, you take all 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.680 the complicated social development. I mean, you know, you know, 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.600 as a boy, I remember seventh grade was the worst 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.920 year of my life. According to what I read, that 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.720 is the peak year of bullying, especially for girls. So 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:43.120 I was very aware even then. You know, girls had 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:44.840 it even rougher, Like it's hard to be a middle 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.600 school girl. And social media homes hones in on exactly 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:53.120 the insecurities, the fears, the relational aggression, and it gives 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.120 girls tools to say, oh, you know, you want to 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.160 hurt her relationships or her reputation, here you go. You 0:08:58.160 --> 0:08:59.880 can do it anonymously, you can do it over the week. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.400 And oh she's insecure about her looks, let's show her 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.079 lots of photos of other girls who have happier lives 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:08.600 and more beautiful faces than she does. So for all 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:12.440 these reasons, social media really hit girls hard. Oh but 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.080 your original question was like what ag just sorry this 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.960 is att answer. That's OK, because I'm so focused on 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:20.320 puberty in middle school because that's where the maximum damage 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:22.839 is done and that's what it's going to be easiest 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:23.960 for us to rip it all out. 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.360 I'm curious about this whole synapse wiring and your brain 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.840 kind of making these connections during puberty. How much of 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:37.360 those connections are really impacting your emotional wellbeing versus, say, 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:38.720 your cognitive function. 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:42.080 That's a great question because that difference is one that 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.280 we know Meta was very aware of. That is some 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.959 documents leaked brought up by Francis Haugen the Whistleblower show 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.800 a some sort of a workshop or something that Facebook 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:55.280 that had internal workshop where someone was explaining to Facebook 0:09:55.280 --> 0:10:00.480 staff worldwide what happens during puberty, and they explicitly say 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:05.120 that the brain rewires itself from back to front and 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.679 during puberty first the emotions. The emotions get rewired and 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.200 the emotional life is very strong, and the prefrontal cortex, 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:14.680 which is the seat of executive function, the seat of 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.400 self control, the seat of I'm going to make a plan. 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:19.480 Here's how I get to the plan. I'm going to 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:21.679 stick to the plan. That stuff which is even it's 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:23.720 hard for us adults in the age of social. 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.120 Media to say, and I understand that that continues to 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:28.640 develop up until like age twenty four. 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.520 Twenty that's right, Yeah, that's right. So this rewiring of 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.520 the brain, and part of what happens is you get 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:38.240 the neurons get coated in a sheath of myelin, which 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.880 is kind of a fatty substance. So that's that's when 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.360 we say things get locked down. It's sort of like, 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.320 you know, when you're the young brain could change in 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.600 a lot of ways, but once it's figured out like, okay, 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.280 this is what is needed in this culture, let's put 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.440 the milin sheath over it, so that now things go 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.239 really fast, but they can't be changed anymore. So puberty 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.000 is the period when the brain is assuming this form, 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.760 and the last part to wire up like that is 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:05.960 the prefunctional cortex. And so we don't know, you know, 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.000 we don't know whether these effects will be permanent. But 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.520 if kids are growing up without spending ten minutes at 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.120 a time on tasks. If it's if it's constant switching, 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:18.000 constant switching of tasks that's going to interfere with the 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.480 ability to develop executive control and to make plans and 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:22.200 execute them. 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.280 We'll talk a little bit more if you could, John 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:30.320 about how this constant focus on your phone impact your 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:34.199 ability to form, you know, to be able to make 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:37.600 judgments to get versus say, being out in the world 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:40.439 playing tag, as you said, or running around with your 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:44.320 friends or having face to face interactions. Can you talk 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:45.480 a little more about that. 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.640 Sure, So let's start. You know, I'm going to assume 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.240 that most of your listeners are are not gen Z, 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.680 that they're older, that many many of them have had 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:56.200 to say that I'm kidding just because gen Z is no, 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:58.040 I shouldn't say anything I should saying about whether they're 0:11:58.080 --> 0:11:59.840 likely what they're likely listen to it. But you know, 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:04.000 most of us remember childhood, back when we were allowed out. 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:05.960 And that's the other piece of this, which I'm sure 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:06.439 we'll come back to. 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.280 It's the lost the playbase, this culture of fear. Yeah, 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.319 that's right, that it's kind of coincided with this interesting 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.440 thing enough and helicopter parenting. 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:17.000 It's all part of it. But so yeah, to lead 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.199 up to it, we can say, remember your best moments 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.560 of outdoor play, and probably your heart was beating fast. 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:24.680 It was a running, a game involved running. It was 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.360 incredibly exciting. Maybe it was hiding, maybe it was swinging, 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.520 maybe there was motion, but there was probably something that 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:31.679 was thrilling about it. 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:34.400 For me, it was riding my bike all over my neighborhood. 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:36.719 Oh and you remember steep hills. You go over the 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:37.160 top of. 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.520 My down and broke my front too, so that wasn't 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.640 a positive experience. But other than that, I really enjoyed 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.000 taking off on my bike in the early morning or 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:48.960 mid morning and being gone until five thirty. 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.840 That's right, That's the way childhood was. And when you know, 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.040 I really remember like going on my bus, like up 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:56.880 over a hill and there's a part where you're on 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.040 the downhill and it's a steep hill and you're a 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.720 little scared, but it's incredibly exciting and you're incredibly focused 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:04.439 on what you're doing. And then when you do it, 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.600 when you do it and you don't wipe out, you're like, yes, 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.400 it's so exciting. While you were going down that hill. 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.800 How many other things were you thinking about. Probably none, Right, 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.880 You're totally focused on what you are, totally present, and 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.960 kids have an incredible ability to be present to look 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.640 at something you didn't even notice. Now, let's contrast that 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.520 with sitting in school and you're trying to pay attention 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:31.079 to the teacher. And let's suppose let's suppose imagine you're 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.760 back in school and on your desk, you brought your 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.080 television set in and your television is there. You you 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:37.720 out the remote control. You can watch whatever you wants 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.000 right on your desk, and your telephone is there and 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.560 you can talk to whoever you want during class, and 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.280 comic books are there, and pornography is there. Everything is 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.079 spread out on your desk, and the teacher's droning on 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.640 about map Like, you're probably not paying attention to the teacher, 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.280 and you're probably scattered among all the other things. And 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:58.600 that's basically what we've done to kids, because it's not 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.000 just the phones, it's all the educatational technology. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:02.679 So what is that doing to your brain? 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:03.000 Then? 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.440 If you are being assaulted by all these different things 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:11.440 that are vying for your attention, is that just scrambling 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.160 your brain? What is it doing exactly? 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:17.000 Well, everything that involves learning is changing your brain. None 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:18.719 of these are like big things like it. It's not 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:20.040 like you could look at a brain and say, oh, 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.760 this kid watch social media. But the neural growth is 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:24.720 going to change in response to whatever it is that 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.800 you do. So if you spend a lot of time 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:31.080 doing archery, whatever parts of the brain are related to that, 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.760 those are going to really refine that you become a 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.840 really good archer. Or if it's athletics, whatever it is, 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:38.760 those parts of the brain are going to tune up 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.360 really really well. So if it's playing video games, then 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:43.920 you're going to get really good at the hand eye coordination, 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.480 not at risk taking, not at any physical skill, just 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.240 whatever skills the video game gives you. What we can 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.360 say about all the distraction for sure is this it 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.400 is making kids dumber. And by dumber, I just mean 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.440 when you give kids tests, as we do a lot, 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.720 what we see is that from nineteen seventy through twenty 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.040 twelve those scores were going up. We have in America, 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:10.040 we have the National Assessment of Educational Progress Report. From 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.600 the seventies to twenty twelve, those numbers were going up slowly. 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.520 It's very hard to make a whole population smarter. But 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.560 we actually did it. And then last year we found 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.960 out scores have plummeted, and everyone said, oh, COVID, My god, 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.520 COVID really, you know it did it in you know, 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:25.800 the COVID the cancelations, And that was true. You know, 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:27.840 keeping kids out of school was bad. You know, it's 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.320 also bad. Putting them on screens all day long, that 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.320 was really bad. But guess what a lot of the 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.280 job was actually twenty twelve to twenty nineteen. It was 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.880 before COVID, so American kids we lost almost all the project. 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.080 Almost all the problems we've made since nineteen seventy one 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.240 is now gone gone since twenty twelve. And it's not 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.920 just us. There's an international data set called PISA, and 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.920 it shows that around the world, almost all over the world. 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.160 There's thirty seven countries, I think in pea thirty four 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.320 something like that. It's not just us. All over kids 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:01.360 are there, they know less, they're doing work on academic achievement, 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:03.680 which has not happened before, I certainly on a global level, 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:08.040 and they're lonelier in school. There's some questions like I 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.480 feel lonely at school, you know, strongly agree disagree, and 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.400 so Gene Twangy and I looked at those six items 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:16.520 and we graft them out and all over the world 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.040 beginning after twenty twelve, kids are lonely at school. Of 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.720 course they are because if everyone else has a smartphone. Now, 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:24.840 even if you don't have one, there's no one to 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:26.640 talk to in the hall. Everyone's on their phone. 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.080 Yeah, you know, there's so much to unravel here. First, 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.680 let's talk about sort of academic performance. I know increasingly 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:37.480 schools are thinking about banning or forcing students to put 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.800 away phones. They say ostensibly they have a no phone use, 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:44.040 but they don't really necessarily enforce it. And it's interesting. 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.520 I remember taking my daughter on a college tour and 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:50.280 going to a class and seeing so many kids. Now 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.680 this was when they were taking notes on computers. We're 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:56.520 shopping at Ja Crew and other things, and Professor, I know, 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:58.480 Larry Sabato, I think you cuts out. 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:00.680 Connection. 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.440 That's really so Larry, I think figured out he wasn't 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.040 going to have Wi Fi in his classroom. So they 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.320 could use their computer to take notes, but they couldn't shop, 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.520 or they couldn't go on social media platforms. 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:13.320 How about it work out? 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.480 I think better, I think better for him. But it 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.240 infuriated me. Actually, I thought, these parents are paying all 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:22.360 this money and these kids are shopping at ja cru 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.560 during a really important history class. So let's talk about 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.200 this school thing. I mean, more and more schools are 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:34.359 trying to enact these requirements or restrictions on phones. Right, 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.120 how is that going over? And do you think it's 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:38.920 going to turn around test scores? 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.720 Yes, I think it's going to go really well. It's 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.119 going to happen this year and so far. So let 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:46.320 me just be clear about what has been happening. So 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.360 the teachers all hate the phones. The teachers, the last 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:51.400 thing they need is to be phone police. The teachers 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:52.919 can see what it's doing. I've not yet made a 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:54.359 teacher who thinks it's a good thing that the kids 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:56.640 have phones in their pockets. The principles, the heads of school, 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.520 they all hate the phones, the drama, the bullying, the 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:00.800 thing that they can and even see what's going on. 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:02.840 They just know that something terrible is happening with the students. 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.880 They can't even help. So everyone hates the phones. Why 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.000 don't they bam them? Why don't they require them to 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.680 be locked away? Because in every school there are some 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.600 parents who freak out and yell and scream and say, no, 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:16.000 I have to be able to reach my child. What 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.760 if there's an emergency or a schoolshroom. That's right, that's right. 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:22.800 And so this small number of parents who insist that 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:25.040 it's their right to communicate with their child even in 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.000 class are very loud. They have a loud voice. So 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:32.240 what they do. What the common policy in America is 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:34.359 the school says you're not allowed to use your phone 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:38.200 during class, that your phone use is banned during class. 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:38.880 And that's a joke. 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:41.520 It's a joke because what it means is open phone 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:43.879 use is banned as long as you hide it in 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:45.639 a book, hide it in your lap, or go to 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:47.399 the bathroom. And teachers have told me kids are going 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:49.480 to the bathroom a lot more nowadays. If they have 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:50.639 a you know, if they can use their phone in 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:52.480 the bathroom, they will. You know, if you were running 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.080 a heroin treatment clinic and you had a rule, you 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:57.399 come in, you know, we'll work on your heroin addiction. 0:18:57.800 --> 0:18:59.560 You can bring your heroin in, you can bring your 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:01.600 needles in, but just leap in your pocket. Just don't 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.520 shoot up while you're here. In the clinic like they 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.920 can't do that. And so, to return to your example 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.120 of Larry Sabato, or of teachers until three years ago, 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.000 I always had the policy because I like to take 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:14.720 notes on a computer. So I always had a policy. 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.239 And I'm teaching NBA students at at NYU. These are 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:21.080 like twenty eight year old professionals, and you know, you know, 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:23.640 we're all mature here. So I would make a big 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.760 show of saying, look, we can't multitask. Here's the research. 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:29.680 You can't multitask. If you want to use your computer 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:32.239 to take notes, you have to stand up, raise your 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.560 right hand and pledge, and it's written out. I will 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.640