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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric, and this is next question.

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Speaker 2: I got a smartphone when I was twelve years old.

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Speaker 3: I was in fifth grade.

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Speaker 1: It was my mom's old phone, so I think I

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Speaker 1: was like nine or.

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Speaker 4: Ten, I was fourteen.

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Speaker 2: As far as like comparing myself to other people, I

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Speaker 2: think I started doing that a lot more when d

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Speaker 2: a smartphone and like seeing people are posting.

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, it's kind of like a constant competition. You make

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Speaker 4: posts to show people what you're doing, and whether or

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Speaker 4: not you want to admit it, it's to show that you're

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Speaker 4: doing something better than the other person. I think a

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Speaker 4: lot of it is toxic and it has contributed to

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Speaker 4: like a lot of negativity.

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Speaker 2: I cannot wait to hopefully one day get better control

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Speaker 2: over my life, because right now, Instagram and TikTok and

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Speaker 2: snapchatre'srolling my life like puppeteers.

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Speaker 1: Do you guys remember that song from Bye Bye Bertie,

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Speaker 1: the one Paul Lynn sang back in nineteen sixty three.

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Speaker 3: Why Kevin May like we were perfect in every way?

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Speaker 3: What's the matter with kids today?

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Speaker 1: But go sixty one years later people are wondering the

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Speaker 1: same thing, what's the matter with kids today? I am

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Speaker 1: so excited to have one of my favorite people, Jonathan Height,

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Speaker 1: here to help us think through what exactly has gone

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Speaker 1: wrong with young people iPhones and social media and what

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Speaker 1: we can all do about it together. As you'll hear,

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Speaker 1: the solution might be simple, but it is not easy.

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Speaker 1: Jonathan has a new book out and it is doing gangbusters.

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Speaker 1: Clearly he's struck a nerve. It's a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: how and why and when smartphones changed everything about childhood

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Speaker 1: and why we might just be at a tipping point

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Speaker 1: where parents and kids say no Moss. Jonathan Height. Your

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Speaker 1: new book is called The Anxious Generation, How the great

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Speaker 1: rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy to see you and talk to you.

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Speaker 1: We have been actually communicating during your whole writing process,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, you sneak a few graphs to me kind

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Speaker 1: of showing what you were discovering. But before we talk

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Speaker 1: about the essence of this book, you had great hopes

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Speaker 1: for technology when it first surfaced in our lives and

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Speaker 1: in society writ large. What did you think it would

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Speaker 1: allow us to do well?

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Speaker 3: I was very influenced by a book I read. It

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Speaker 3: was written in nineteen ninety nine by Robert Wright called

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Speaker 3: non Zero, and it was how he starts with the

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Speaker 3: history of bacteria and like early life, and whenever life

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Speaker 3: has found a way to cooperate more, you get an

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Speaker 3: explosion of productivity and you never lose it. And so

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Speaker 3: life has been stepping up ability to cooperate at larger

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Speaker 3: and larger levels forever. And with humans, you know, we

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Speaker 3: were originally hunter gatherers and tribes battling each other. But

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Speaker 3: when you get forms of political organization that you have

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Speaker 3: communities or towns, you get roads that link. So it's

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Speaker 3: always connection has always been good in the long run.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes there's chaos at first, but it's always good in

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Speaker 3: the long run. And remember this book comes out, it's

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine, so you and I remember the nineties.

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Speaker 3: It was like, yay, history is over all that crazy

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Speaker 3: stuff with dictators and wars, like that's all God and

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Speaker 3: like it's going to be yeah and that. So then

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Speaker 3: the Internet comes in around I saw my first web

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Speaker 3: browser nineteen ninety four, and it really was like, wow,

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Speaker 3: you know, these guys in California, they're giving us godlike powers.

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Speaker 3: They are literally giving us omnissions. I can at this moment,

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Speaker 3: I can know anything in the whole. It was a

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Speaker 3: amazing you know, and I was I was a relatively

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Speaker 3: young man at the time, and I loved computers and technology.

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Speaker 3: I'd worked in computers, so there was enormous techno optimism.

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Speaker 3: I certainly was a techno optimist. And this persists all

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Speaker 3: the way through about twenty eleven twenty twelve, for sure,

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Speaker 3: because now we're getting the iPhone, which is magical and amazing.

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Speaker 3: We're getting you know, uber like I just press a

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Speaker 3: button and a taxi appears for me.

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Speaker 1: Why didn't I think of that?

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Speaker 3: So, you know, it was just amazement after amazement, and

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Speaker 3: there was a lot of gratitude, and we treated these

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Speaker 3: guys like gods.

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Speaker 1: I know that you had your son at the time,

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Speaker 1: I believe was two years old, and you started showing

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Speaker 1: him this technology and you marveled at the fact that

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Speaker 1: he was able to do the touch screen and swipe

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Speaker 1: almost instinctively right, and you thought, Wow, this is so cool.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly.

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Speaker 1: Was there not a part of you, John that was saying, no,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's not cool.

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Speaker 3: No, because you know, it's not that I showed it

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Speaker 3: to him. It's that, like every young human being. He

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Speaker 3: saw the lights and flashing colors and said, you know,

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Speaker 3: I phone, I phone. You know, he wanted he desperately

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Speaker 3: wanted it, and you give it to him, and he

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Speaker 3: very quickly, you know, learned you touch, you know, you

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Speaker 3: touch what you want. You know, it's it's very intuitive technology.

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Speaker 1: And what year was this when so little I.

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Speaker 3: Got my first iPhone in two thousand and eight, was

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Speaker 3: an iPhone two the year after it came out, and

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Speaker 3: my son was two at the time, and he, you know,

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Speaker 3: he could bear. He wasn't even really talking like he

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Speaker 3: had words, he didn't have sentences yet, but he could

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Speaker 3: figure out how to move around the iPhone and so

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Speaker 3: that's amazing. There's no problem there. And you got to

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Speaker 3: remember the original iPhone was just a digital Swiss army knife.

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Speaker 3: It just you know, if you wanted maps, you had maps.

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Speaker 3: If you want music, you got music. If you want

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Speaker 3: a flashlight, you got a flashlight. There were no notifications,

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Speaker 3: there was no app store, there was no social media.

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Speaker 3: So it was a tool that I pulled out of

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Speaker 3: my pocket when I wanted to do something, and so

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Speaker 3: it was great. The story in my book is how

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Speaker 3: everything changes between twenty ten and twenty fifteen. I call

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Speaker 3: that the great rewiring of childhood because in twenty ten

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Speaker 3: almost all American kids have a flip phone. They have

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Speaker 3: everyone has a cell phone, but it was a dumb

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Speaker 3: what we now call it dumb was then mostly a

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Speaker 3: flip phone which they used to connect to other kids.

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Speaker 3: And so that's great. Still, technology is wonderful, it's amazing.

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Speaker 3: You know, the kids are going to be so smart.

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Speaker 3: Oh by they're all techno whizzes. That's twenty ten. By

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Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, eighty percent have a smartphone. They've got high

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Speaker 3: speed data, which they high speed Internet. They didn't have

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Speaker 3: it in twenty ten. Mostly they've got a front facing camera,

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Speaker 3: which wasn't there in twenty ten. It was introduced in

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Speaker 3: twenty ten. They have Instagram, which was introduced in twenty ten.

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Speaker 3: And so the daily life of a young person in

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Speaker 3: twenty ten was still recognizably a human childhood, where technology

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Speaker 3: was a tool they used to connect. By twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 3: it was not recognizably a human childhood. It was spent

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Speaker 3: most of the waking hours that were not in school.

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Speaker 3: Oh actually, and even hours in school were spent looking

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Speaker 3: at their small screen and doing stuff that disconnected them

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Speaker 3: from the peace people next to them. So that's why

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Speaker 3: I say childhood change between twenty ten and twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 3: and I believe that's the major reason that mental health

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Speaker 3: plunged all over the developed world in that period.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the number of kids who when you

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Speaker 1: say they, what ages are you talking about between twenty

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Speaker 1: ten and twenty fifteen when these devices became ubiquitous.

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Speaker 3: So the thing to focus on is puberty. Puberty begins

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Speaker 3: around eleven to thirteen for girls is early puberty, and

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Speaker 3: then boys it's a year or two later. And puberty

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Speaker 3: is so important because that's when the human brain really

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Speaker 3: speeds up its development. The brain isn't growing very much

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Speaker 3: in total volume, that it reaches almost its full volume

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Speaker 3: by age six. Everything else is about sorting through which

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Speaker 3: which neurons are going to stay, which are going to

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Speaker 3: get cleaned out, which synapses, which connections between neurons are

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Speaker 3: going to stay and multiply, and which ones are going

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Speaker 3: to disappear. So it's a tuning up process which is

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Speaker 3: guided by the experiences that the child is having. So

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Speaker 3: if a child is running around a lot and playing

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Speaker 3: social games and gossiping and doing all the normal stuff

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Speaker 3: of childhood, then those parts of the brain are going

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Speaker 3: to wire up sort of in the way that evolution expected.

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Speaker 3: But if a kid is spending six hours a day

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Speaker 3: on video games, that's a very different set of stimulation.

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Speaker 3: It's going to lead to different neural development. Boys mostly

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Speaker 3: went for video games, or they disproportionally went for video

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Speaker 3: games and pornography. Girls disproportionately went for social media and

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Speaker 3: social media. It just like it's like, you take all

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Speaker 3: the complicated social development. I mean, you know, you know,

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Speaker 3: as a boy, I remember seventh grade was the worst

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Speaker 3: year of my life. According to what I read, that

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Speaker 3: is the peak year of bullying, especially for girls. So

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Speaker 3: I was very aware even then. You know, girls had

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Speaker 3: it even rougher, Like it's hard to be a middle

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Speaker 3: school girl. And social media homes hones in on exactly

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Speaker 3: the insecurities, the fears, the relational aggression, and it gives

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Speaker 3: girls tools to say, oh, you know, you want to

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Speaker 3: hurt her relationships or her reputation, here you go. You

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Speaker 3: can do it anonymously, you can do it over the week.

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Speaker 3: And oh she's insecure about her looks, let's show her

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Speaker 3: lots of photos of other girls who have happier lives

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Speaker 3: and more beautiful faces than she does. So for all

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Speaker 3: these reasons, social media really hit girls hard. Oh but

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Speaker 3: your original question was like what ag just sorry this

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Speaker 3: is att answer. That's OK, because I'm so focused on

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Speaker 3: puberty in middle school because that's where the maximum damage

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Speaker 3: is done and that's what it's going to be easiest

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Speaker 3: for us to rip it all out.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious about this whole synapse wiring and your brain

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Speaker 1: kind of making these connections during puberty. How much of

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Speaker 1: those connections are really impacting your emotional wellbeing versus, say,

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Speaker 1: your cognitive function.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question because that difference is one that

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Speaker 3: we know Meta was very aware of. That is some

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Speaker 3: documents leaked brought up by Francis Haugen the Whistleblower show

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Speaker 3: a some sort of a workshop or something that Facebook

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Speaker 3: that had internal workshop where someone was explaining to Facebook

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Speaker 3: staff worldwide what happens during puberty, and they explicitly say

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Speaker 3: that the brain rewires itself from back to front and

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Speaker 3: during puberty first the emotions. The emotions get rewired and

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Speaker 3: the emotional life is very strong, and the prefrontal cortex,

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Speaker 3: which is the seat of executive function, the seat of

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Speaker 3: self control, the seat of I'm going to make a plan.

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Speaker 3: Here's how I get to the plan. I'm going to

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Speaker 3: stick to the plan. That stuff which is even it's

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Speaker 3: hard for us adults in the age of social.

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Speaker 1: Media to say, and I understand that that continues to

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Speaker 1: develop up until like age twenty four.

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Speaker 3: Twenty that's right, Yeah, that's right. So this rewiring of

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Speaker 3: the brain, and part of what happens is you get

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Speaker 3: the neurons get coated in a sheath of myelin, which

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Speaker 3: is kind of a fatty substance. So that's that's when

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Speaker 3: we say things get locked down. It's sort of like,

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Speaker 3: you know, when you're the young brain could change in

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Speaker 3: a lot of ways, but once it's figured out like, okay,

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Speaker 3: this is what is needed in this culture, let's put

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Speaker 3: the milin sheath over it, so that now things go

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Speaker 3: really fast, but they can't be changed anymore. So puberty

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Speaker 3: is the period when the brain is assuming this form,

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Speaker 3: and the last part to wire up like that is

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Speaker 3: the prefunctional cortex. And so we don't know, you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't know whether these effects will be permanent. But

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Speaker 3: if kids are growing up without spending ten minutes at

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Speaker 3: a time on tasks. If it's if it's constant switching,

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Speaker 3: constant switching of tasks that's going to interfere with the

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Speaker 3: ability to develop executive control and to make plans and

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Speaker 3: execute them.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk a little bit more if you could, John

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Speaker 1: about how this constant focus on your phone impact your

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Speaker 1: ability to form, you know, to be able to make

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Speaker 1: judgments to get versus say, being out in the world

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Speaker 1: playing tag, as you said, or running around with your

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Speaker 1: friends or having face to face interactions. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little more about that.

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Speaker 3: Sure, So let's start. You know, I'm going to assume

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Speaker 3: that most of your listeners are are not gen Z,

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Speaker 3: that they're older, that many many of them have had

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Speaker 3: to say that I'm kidding just because gen Z is no,

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Speaker 3: I shouldn't say anything I should saying about whether they're

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Speaker 3: likely what they're likely listen to it. But you know,

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Speaker 3: most of us remember childhood, back when we were allowed out.

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Speaker 3: And that's the other piece of this, which I'm sure

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Speaker 3: we'll come back to.

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Speaker 1: It's the lost the playbase, this culture of fear. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right, that it's kind of coincided with this interesting

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Speaker 1: thing enough and helicopter parenting.

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Speaker 3: It's all part of it. But so yeah, to lead

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Speaker 3: up to it, we can say, remember your best moments

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Speaker 3: of outdoor play, and probably your heart was beating fast.

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Speaker 3: It was a running, a game involved running. It was

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Speaker 3: incredibly exciting. Maybe it was hiding, maybe it was swinging,

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Speaker 3: maybe there was motion, but there was probably something that

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Speaker 3: was thrilling about it.

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Speaker 1: For me, it was riding my bike all over my neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: Oh and you remember steep hills. You go over the

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Speaker 3: top of.

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Speaker 1: My down and broke my front too, so that wasn't

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Speaker 1: a positive experience. But other than that, I really enjoyed

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Speaker 1: taking off on my bike in the early morning or

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Speaker 1: mid morning and being gone until five thirty.

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Speaker 3: That's right, That's the way childhood was. And when you know,

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Speaker 3: I really remember like going on my bus, like up

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Speaker 3: over a hill and there's a part where you're on

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Speaker 3: the downhill and it's a steep hill and you're a

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Speaker 3: little scared, but it's incredibly exciting and you're incredibly focused

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Speaker 3: on what you're doing. And then when you do it,

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Speaker 3: when you do it and you don't wipe out, you're like, yes,

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Speaker 3: it's so exciting. While you were going down that hill.

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Speaker 3: How many other things were you thinking about. Probably none, Right,

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Speaker 3: You're totally focused on what you are, totally present, and

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Speaker 3: kids have an incredible ability to be present to look

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Speaker 3: at something you didn't even notice. Now, let's contrast that

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Speaker 3: with sitting in school and you're trying to pay attention

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Speaker 3: to the teacher. And let's suppose let's suppose imagine you're

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Speaker 3: back in school and on your desk, you brought your

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Speaker 3: television set in and your television is there. You you

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Speaker 3: out the remote control. You can watch whatever you wants

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Speaker 3: right on your desk, and your telephone is there and

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Speaker 3: you can talk to whoever you want during class, and

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Speaker 3: comic books are there, and pornography is there. Everything is

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Speaker 3: spread out on your desk, and the teacher's droning on

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Speaker 3: about map Like, you're probably not paying attention to the teacher,

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Speaker 3: and you're probably scattered among all the other things. And

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Speaker 3: that's basically what we've done to kids, because it's not

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Speaker 3: just the phones, it's all the educatational technology.

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Speaker 1: So what is that doing to your brain?

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Speaker 3: Then?

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Speaker 1: If you are being assaulted by all these different things

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Speaker 1: that are vying for your attention, is that just scrambling

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Speaker 1: your brain? What is it doing exactly?

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Speaker 3: Well, everything that involves learning is changing your brain. None

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Speaker 3: of these are like big things like it. It's not

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Speaker 3: like you could look at a brain and say, oh,

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Speaker 3: this kid watch social media. But the neural growth is

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Speaker 3: going to change in response to whatever it is that

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Speaker 3: you do. So if you spend a lot of time

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Speaker 3: doing archery, whatever parts of the brain are related to that,

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Speaker 3: those are going to really refine that you become a

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Speaker 3: really good archer. Or if it's athletics, whatever it is,

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Speaker 3: those parts of the brain are going to tune up

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Speaker 3: really really well. So if it's playing video games, then

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Speaker 3: you're going to get really good at the hand eye coordination,

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Speaker 3: not at risk taking, not at any physical skill, just

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Speaker 3: whatever skills the video game gives you. What we can

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Speaker 3: say about all the distraction for sure is this it

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Speaker 3: is making kids dumber. And by dumber, I just mean

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Speaker 3: when you give kids tests, as we do a lot,

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Speaker 3: what we see is that from nineteen seventy through twenty

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Speaker 3: twelve those scores were going up. We have in America,

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Speaker 3: we have the National Assessment of Educational Progress Report. From

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Speaker 3: the seventies to twenty twelve, those numbers were going up slowly.

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Speaker 3: It's very hard to make a whole population smarter. But

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Speaker 3: we actually did it. And then last year we found

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Speaker 3: out scores have plummeted, and everyone said, oh, COVID, My god,

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Speaker 3: COVID really, you know it did it in you know,

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Speaker 3: the COVID the cancelations, And that was true. You know,

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Speaker 3: keeping kids out of school was bad. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: also bad. Putting them on screens all day long, that

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Speaker 3: was really bad. But guess what a lot of the

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Speaker 3: job was actually twenty twelve to twenty nineteen. It was

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Speaker 3: before COVID, so American kids we lost almost all the project.

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Speaker 3: Almost all the problems we've made since nineteen seventy one

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Speaker 3: is now gone gone since twenty twelve. And it's not

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Speaker 3: just us. There's an international data set called PISA, and

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Speaker 3: it shows that around the world, almost all over the world.

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Speaker 3: There's thirty seven countries, I think in pea thirty four

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Speaker 3: something like that. It's not just us. All over kids

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Speaker 3: are there, they know less, they're doing work on academic achievement,

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Speaker 3: which has not happened before, I certainly on a global level,

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Speaker 3: and they're lonelier in school. There's some questions like I

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Speaker 3: feel lonely at school, you know, strongly agree disagree, and

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Speaker 3: so Gene Twangy and I looked at those six items

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Speaker 3: and we graft them out and all over the world

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Speaker 3: beginning after twenty twelve, kids are lonely at school. Of

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Speaker 3: course they are because if everyone else has a smartphone. Now,

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Speaker 3: even if you don't have one, there's no one to

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Speaker 3: talk to in the hall. Everyone's on their phone.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, there's so much to unravel here. First,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about sort of academic performance. I know increasingly

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Speaker 1: schools are thinking about banning or forcing students to put

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Speaker 1: away phones. They say ostensibly they have a no phone use,

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Speaker 1: but they don't really necessarily enforce it. And it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I remember taking my daughter on a college tour and

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Speaker 1: going to a class and seeing so many kids. Now

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Speaker 1: this was when they were taking notes on computers. We're

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Speaker 1: shopping at Ja Crew and other things, and Professor, I know,

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Speaker 1: Larry Sabato, I think you cuts out.

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Speaker 3: Connection.

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Speaker 1: That's really so Larry, I think figured out he wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to have Wi Fi in his classroom. So they

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Speaker 1: could use their computer to take notes, but they couldn't shop,

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Speaker 1: or they couldn't go on social media platforms.

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Speaker 3: How about it work out?

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Speaker 1: I think better, I think better for him. But it

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Speaker 1: infuriated me. Actually, I thought, these parents are paying all

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Speaker 1: this money and these kids are shopping at ja cru

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Speaker 1: during a really important history class. So let's talk about

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Speaker 1: this school thing. I mean, more and more schools are

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Speaker 1: trying to enact these requirements or restrictions on phones. Right,

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Speaker 1: how is that going over? And do you think it's

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Speaker 1: going to turn around test scores?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think it's going to go really well. It's

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Speaker 3: going to happen this year and so far. So let

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Speaker 3: me just be clear about what has been happening. So

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Speaker 3: the teachers all hate the phones. The teachers, the last

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Speaker 3: thing they need is to be phone police. The teachers

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Speaker 3: can see what it's doing. I've not yet made a

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Speaker 3: teacher who thinks it's a good thing that the kids

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Speaker 3: have phones in their pockets. The principles, the heads of school,

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Speaker 3: they all hate the phones, the drama, the bullying, the

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Speaker 3: thing that they can and even see what's going on.

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Speaker 3: They just know that something terrible is happening with the students.

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Speaker 3: They can't even help. So everyone hates the phones. Why

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Speaker 3: don't they bam them? Why don't they require them to

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Speaker 3: be locked away? Because in every school there are some

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Speaker 3: parents who freak out and yell and scream and say, no,

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Speaker 3: I have to be able to reach my child. What

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Speaker 3: if there's an emergency or a schoolshroom. That's right, that's right.

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Speaker 3: And so this small number of parents who insist that

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Speaker 3: it's their right to communicate with their child even in

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Speaker 3: class are very loud. They have a loud voice. So

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Speaker 3: what they do. What the common policy in America is

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Speaker 3: the school says you're not allowed to use your phone

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Speaker 3: during class, that your phone use is banned during class.

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Speaker 1: And that's a joke.

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Speaker 3: It's a joke because what it means is open phone

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Speaker 3: use is banned as long as you hide it in

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Speaker 3: a book, hide it in your lap, or go to

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Speaker 3: the bathroom. And teachers have told me kids are going

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Speaker 3: to the bathroom a lot more nowadays. If they have

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Speaker 3: a you know, if they can use their phone in

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Speaker 3: the bathroom, they will. You know, if you were running

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Speaker 3: a heroin treatment clinic and you had a rule, you

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Speaker 3: come in, you know, we'll work on your heroin addiction.

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Speaker 3: You can bring your heroin in, you can bring your

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Speaker 3: needles in, but just leap in your pocket. Just don't

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Speaker 3: shoot up while you're here. In the clinic like they

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Speaker 3: can't do that. And so, to return to your example

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Speaker 3: of Larry Sabato, or of teachers until three years ago,

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Speaker 3: I always had the policy because I like to take

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Speaker 3: notes on a computer. So I always had a policy.

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Speaker 3: And I'm teaching NBA students at at NYU. These are

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Speaker 3: like twenty eight year old professionals, and you know, you know,

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Speaker 3: we're all mature here. So I would make a big

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Speaker 3: show of saying, look, we can't multitask. Here's the research.

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Speaker 3: You can't multitask. If you want to use your computer

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Speaker 3: to take notes, you have to stand up, raise your

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Speaker 3: right hand and pledge, and it's written out. I will

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Speaker 3: only use my computer for class related activities. I will

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Speaker 3: not go on the end, you know.

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Speaker 1: So I think there's an honor system at NYA. They

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Speaker 1: don't have that only UVA, that's.

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Speaker 3: Right, which I tried to reform, but that's another story.

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Speaker 3: When I was there, since I taught at UVA until

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Speaker 3: twenty eleven, loved it, and so but what I found

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Speaker 3: my TA would sit in the back and she would say,

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Speaker 3: you know a third of the class, especially everyone in

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Speaker 3: the back row, is their shopping. They're on social media,

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Speaker 3: they're texting, and I finally realized this is happening all

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Speaker 3: over the country. That means it's not the kid's fault.

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Speaker 3: It's like this technology was designed to grip, to grab

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Speaker 3: their attention, keep their interest, keep them thinking about it,

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Speaker 3: send them alerts. Oh there's a special twenty percent off.

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Speaker 3: Click here to find out what someone just said about you.

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Speaker 1: When we come back. What our kids lose when they

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Speaker 1: lose an analog childhood. If you want to get smarter

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Speaker 1: every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating

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00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 1: takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up

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Speaker 1: for our daily newsletter Wake Up Call by going to

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Speaker 1: Katiecuric dot com. We're back with Jonathan Hepe. I interviewed

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Speaker 1: Christan Harris documentary I did six years ago on tech addiction,

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Speaker 1: and you're right. I'm glad you brought that up, because

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Speaker 1: in some ways it's not their fault because these devices

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Speaker 1: are designed for maximum time spent on them, and so

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Speaker 1: everything they can do, from making the colors enticing and

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Speaker 1: interesting to making sure that they have constant stimulation, it's

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Speaker 1: just it's very hard. It's hard. I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: addicted to my phone.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's right. So I think one reason why my

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Speaker 3: book is resonating so much, why people are buying it

433
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,480
Speaker 3: and sending and giving it to others, is that we've

434
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 3: all seen this in ourselves. Like, you know, we know

435
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 3: that this is true, that this stuff, it fragments our attention,

436
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 3: it keeps us on, it wastes our time. Now, obviously

437
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 3: there are very powerful tools. I mean for adults, there

438
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 3: are reasons to use Instagram and even TikTok. You know,

439
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 3: they're very helpful for companies.

440
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: And markets and things like that.

441
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,400
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well, no one's addicted to maps. Kind of weird.

442
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 1: If you're doing you're kind of addicted to maps. I

443
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 1: am addicted to GPS. I don't think I could get

444
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:06,000
Speaker 1: any place with that.

445
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 3: That's so you're dependent on it, which is very different.

446
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 3: So look, adults can make a choice, you know what,

447
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 3: I'm willing to give up my ability to navigate in

448
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 3: return for perfect directions. And it's true, we are like

449
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 3: I find like you know, I've been living in New

450
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 3: York since twenty eleven. We have a grid system here.

451
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 3: But yet, like I'm dependent on that. You know, you

452
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 3: don't bother to learn certain things.

453
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: I don't know my husband's phone number.

454
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 3: Right, But okay, but again, that's not an addiction. That's

455
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,439
Speaker 3: you've been a change in your life, and it's a

456
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 3: kind of a deal with the devil where you don't

457
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 3: have to learn a lot of stuff because your computer

458
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 3: knows it.

459
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: But I feel like my mind is lazy as a result.

460
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: But that's another topic. But getting back to addiction, I mean,

461
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: so this is part of the problem, and I want

462
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 1: to just bring in this notion of protecting children. This

463
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 1: coincided with sort of stranger danger helicopter parenting. We don't

464
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: want our kids to be too. So it's almost been

465
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 1: a double whammy, hasn't it talk about that?

466
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 3: So one thing that I do in the book. I

467
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 3: thought that it was going to be a book about

468
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 3: social media and girls, originally because that's where the data

469
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 3: is clearest, that there's a cause, there's a causal relationship.

470
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 3: But once I got all the numbers together, I started

471
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 3: making graphs. My research partner, Zach Rousch, and I we

472
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 3: had all these graphs. I asked him to look at

473
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 3: what's happening all these countries and we saw it's not

474
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 3: just us, it's so many countries. It's the boys too.

475
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 3: Although the boys don't curve up quite as quickly. It's

476
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 3: not like everything changed for them in twenty twelve the

477
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 3: way it did for the girls. But the larger point

478
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 3: is what we realized is it's a change in childhood.

479
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 3: Where there's the first part is the loss of the

480
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 3: play based childhood. And so I realized I can't just

481
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 3: write a book about social media and girls. I have

482
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 3: to actually start writing about what is childhood? What is

483
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 3: human childhood? Why is it so different from every other species?

484
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 3: Why is it so long? And why do humans actually

485
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 3: slow down in our growth. Other primates they just grow

486
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 3: and grow and grow, and then they reach puberty and

487
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 3: then they reproduce. That's I mean, why wouldn't you But humans,

488
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 3: we grow and grow and then we slow down around

489
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 3: age three or four, were slow and we grow very

490
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: slowly until around age you know, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen,

491
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 3: and then we have a growth spurt. And that period

492
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: seems to be an evolutionary adaptation for cultural learning. Humans

493
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: have culture. Chimpanzees don't. They have a tiny bit, but

494
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 3: not really much, And so there's so much learning to

495
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: do in that period, and the way we learn is

496
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 3: through play and through trial and error and when kids

497
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 3: are out. You know, So did you play with fire

498
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 3: when you were a kid? Is that a girl thing?

499
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 3: Like boys? We all played with fire, I.

500
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: Mean a little bit, not too much. But I wasn't

501
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: too much of a pyro.

502
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 3: Okay, we all were blue.

503
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I didn't sniff it. I just put it

504
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 1: on my hands.

505
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I hold it off, yes, the way I

506
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 3: remember that feeling. Yes. Yeah, so we you know, we

507
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 3: would build a you know, we stole lumber and built

508
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,719
Speaker 3: a little shack for ourselves in the you know, some

509
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 3: trees behind my house. Yeah, but you know, there's attraction

510
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 3: to fire. I mean, fire is a big part of

511
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 3: evolutionary history. It's a real part of the human and

512
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 3: stories fire And so you let kids play with fire,

513
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 3: and they learn it, they master it, they feel comfortable

514
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 3: with it. So that was a normal human childhood. And

515
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 3: everyone got burned, Like at some point, you burn yourself,

516
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 3: maybe burn yourself on the stove, maybe you burn yourself

517
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 3: on a match, and then you learn from trial and error, Oh,

518
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 3: be careful of the hot parts. That's the way humans

519
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 3: have always learned, right.

520
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: Or you're running around and you trip on something and

521
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: you skin your knee, or you hurt yourself in other ways,

522
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: and you kind of learn coordination and you know areas

523
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: to stay away from all those kind of little lessons.

524
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 3: That's exactly. So all of that comes about through trial

525
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 3: and error. We have to have these experiences, we have

526
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 3: to fall down, we have to have the setback, so

527
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 3: we learn a lot from those. But what happened beginning

528
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 3: in the eighties and especially in the nineties was Americans

529
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 3: began to freak out about dangers to their children, the

530
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 3: main danger being stranger danger kidnapping. Now, there's very little

531
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,479
Speaker 3: kidnapping in this country, thankfully. When it happens, it's mostly

532
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: the non custodial parent. A true kidnapping by a stranger.

533
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: FBI stats it's in the ballpark of one hundred a year,

534
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 3: which in a gigantic country, that means you're much more

535
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 3: likely be struck by lightning than that. But of course

536
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 3: it looms large in your minds, and with cable TV,

537
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 3: we all would then follow the few cases, so we

538
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: had the feeling, and this is called the availability loss.

539
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: For example, remember.

540
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 3: That I don't remember that particular one.

541
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 1: Yes, and then that led to three strikes anyway, Oh.

542
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, that's right, Megan's law. There are all kinds

543
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 3: of laws, and anyway, I don't mean to minimize that

544
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 3: particular issue, except to say it looms so large in

545
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 3: the public mind that we began to think, if we

546
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: let our kids out, someone's going to take them. And

547
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 3: the previous assumption had been if we let our kids

548
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 3: out in trouble, someone's going to help them, you know,

549
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,719
Speaker 3: like if I fell down on my bicycle and was

550
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 3: you know, was actually injured, you know, like you could

551
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 3: knock on the doorbell of the person, like, you know,

552
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 3: can you call my mother, and they would call your mother.

553
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 3: But in the eighties, for a lot of variety of

554
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 3: sociological reasons, we lost trust in each other. We began

555
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 3: to lose trust in each other. There were scandals, some

556
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 3: of them were totally fake, like the daycare sex abuse

557
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 3: scandals that never happened, but people were afraid, oh my god,

558
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 3: even in daycare, my kids will be sexually molested. So

559
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 3: once we became paranoid about other adults, that meant we

560
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 3: had to do all the work ourselves, and that means

561
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 3: especially mothers. So mothers were really judged by how well

562
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 3: they were protecting their kids from dangers, and this intensifies

563
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 3: in the nineties, which is the same decade that the

564
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 3: Internet comes in, and now everyone's got a personal computer,

565
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: and then you get an internet connection, and so you

566
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 3: can either have your kids running around outside where you're

567
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 3: afraid they'll be abducted, or they can sit inside on

568
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 3: a computer, which will make them smarter. Right, So I'd

569
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 3: much rather have them be sitting inside on a computer

570
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: and where they're learning things. It's great, we had no

571
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 3: idea what we were doing.

572
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: Add to that this whole notion of helicopter parenting, right,

573
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: it was almost taking it a notch further as parents

574
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: started not only over protecting their children but kind of

575
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: now it's called snowplow parenting, but doing things, you know,

576
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: micromanaging their whole lives and giving them very little freedom

577
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: to hopefully ensure their success whatever that might mean.

578
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 3: That's right, which is paradoxical, because if you want your

579
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 3: kid to be successful in life, the last thing you

580
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 3: should do is make them successful at everything they try.

581
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 3: You need to let them struggle. Kids. As I said before,

582
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 3: we learned from trial and error. We learn a lot

583
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: more from our failures and mistakes than from our successes.

584
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 3: So they have to have those failures. We are anti fragile.

585
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 3: That means if you treat your kid as that they're fragile,

586
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 3: and you say, oh my god, if someone teases my child,

587
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 3: they'll be hurt. If someone excludes my child, she'll be hurt. Like, no,

588
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 3: your kid needs to be excluded, sometimes not too much,

589
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 3: but kids need all the negatives. Then they realize I

590
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: can survive this.

591
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: Right, here's what develop coping mechan That's right exactly. I

592
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: want to talk to you about the mental health repercussions

593
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: of this period of time between twenty ten and twenty fifteen,

594
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: because that I think is sort of the siren call

595
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: of this book and something that is really very disturbing

596
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 1: and upsetting. Can you talk about the things that have

597
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: increased as a result you believe of this constant well,

598
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: this addiction to your iPhone?

599
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 3: Yeah sure so. So first, the way to understand it

600
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 3: is not any one thing. It's not like just social

601
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 3: media or just video games. It's the transition from what

602
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: I've called a play based childhood, where plays you know,

603
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 3: you're out hanging out with your friends, that's the normal

604
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 3: thing you do, to a phone based childhood where most

605
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 3: stuff is coming through the screen, So it's that transition.

606
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 3: So what does it do. The things that go up

607
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 3: a lot are especially it's not all mental disorders, it's

608
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: especially those related to anxiety and depression. Those are the

609
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 3: core mental illnesses that have increased dramatically. So you know

610
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 3: between fifteen, one hundred and fifty percent, depending on what

611
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: measure and what age group you're talking about, the most dramatic.

612
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 3: So some of my critics say, oh, you know, that's

613
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 3: just self report, Like girls are saying they're depressed because

614
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 3: you know, the stigma is reduced, and that's a good

615
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 3: thing that they're just reporting and more. But the kids

616
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: are all right, there's no change, there's nothing going on here.

617
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: It's just another moral pen This is the main pushback

618
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 3: I get to my book, to which I say, it's

619
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 3: a plausible hypothesis. You know, there are definitely changes in

620
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: diagnostic criteria over time that could be it. So let's

621
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: look at some things that don't involve self report, that

622
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: don't involve asking kids questions about how do you feel today.

623
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 3: Let's look at hospitalizations or emergency room visits for self harm.

624
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 3: Intentional self harm, which is a thing that girls have

625
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 3: always done much more than boys. When they hit puberty,

626
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: girls become more depressed and anxious than boys. They rise

627
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: up on that. That's always been the case and one

628
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 3: way of dealing with anxiety. It's hard for people to understand.

629
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 3: Cutting yourself is not a suicide attempt. It's a thing

630
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 3: that many teenage girls do. It's somehow it manages their anxiety,

631
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 3: but it's terrifying. I mean to see your child bloody

632
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 3: from her own hand. And these numbers go up like

633
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 3: fifty to eighty percent for the older teen girls, one

634
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: hundred and eighty percent for the younger teen girls. The

635
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 3: CDC breaks up the data the ten to fourteen year olds.

636
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 3: Whenever you look at the ten to fourteen year old girls,

637
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: you see gigantic increases, more than doubling, sometimes almost tripling.

638
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 3: So that's one of the most alarming things. And that

639
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: the same thing happened in Canada, in Britain, in Australia

640
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 3: and New Zealand and a lot of other countries. That

641
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: all happened, that all began to go up in the

642
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 3: early twenty ten. So something is really happening, especially to

643
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 3: girls in that period.

644
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: Not only self harm, but let's talk about suicides. Because

645
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: that is also really really scary. I know that Vivig Murphy,

646
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: who's a surgeon general, who was also the surgeon General

647
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: during the Obama administration, issued and advisory talk about suicide

648
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: rates and suicidal ideation.

649
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure, So suicide is actually going down around the

650
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 3: world since the year two thousand ers. So there's been

651
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 3: a global decline in suicide. The number of reasons for that,

652
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: nobody really knows why, but it's been going down overall.

653
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 3: And some people say, oh, see, this disproves your thesis

654
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: is because you know, as smartphones were coming in, the

655
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 3: suicide rate is going down, so it can't be the

656
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 3: smartphones are bad. But when you break out the suicide

657
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 3: stats by age and sex, what you see is is

658
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: going down for everybody except for teenage girls and teenage boys.

659
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 3: Teenage boys are up, are up more recently, but teenage

660
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 3: girls all around the world, or at least in the

661
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 3: western world, I should in the developed world, they begin

662
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 3: going up in the mid early to mid twenty tens.

663
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: The statistics you report in the book about anxiety, depressions, suicide,

664
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: self harm, et cetera. Are really staggering and very upsetting.

665
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: They have been publicized by the Surgeon General's Office. Rates

666
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: of depression and anxiety in the US rose by more

667
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: than fifty percent from twenty ten to twenty nineteen. The

668
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: suicide rate rose forty eight percent for adolescence between the

669
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: ages of ten and nineteen, and for girls ages ten

670
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: to fourteen, the suicide rate rows one hundred and thirty

671
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: one percent.

672
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 3: That's right. Whenever you look at the younger teen girls,

673
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 3: you see astonishing increases, and it's very sharp. It wasn't

674
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 3: like they they just gradually went up. There's actually, I

675
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 3: think a fifty percent increase between twenty twelve and twenty thirteen.

676
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 3: In that single year, there's a fifty percent increase, and

677
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 3: then the rage just keeps going up from there. So

678
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: that I think is also very clear evidence that something

679
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 3: changed in the early twenty tens. Now, I should also

680
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 3: make clear we've been focusing on the girls. Boys have

681
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 3: much higher rates of suicide than girls do. Boys are

682
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 3: much more risk of suicide. Girls make more attempts. Girls

683
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: say they think about suicide more often. In fact, now

684
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 3: I think it's thirty percent of American girls say they've

685
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 3: made a suicide planner, They've thought seriously about suicide. In

686
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 3: the last year it used to be I think it

687
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: was nineteen percent in twenty ten something like that, so

688
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 3: it's way up. But girls, when they make attempts, they

689
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: tend to use reversible means, either cutting their wrists or

690
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 3: taking their psychiatric medications and overdose of them something like that.

691
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 3: Boys make fewer attempts, but when boys make attempts, they

692
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 3: tend to use a gun or a tall building, and

693
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 3: so boys attempts tend to be not reversible, and so

694
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 3: that's why they end up with two or three times

695
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 3: the rate of actual suicide. So we have to really

696
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 3: attend to boys as well. But it's not linked to

697
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 3: social media as clearly as it is for the girls.

698
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about what specifically you know, because there's

699
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: a lot of things on your iPhone. There's social media,

700
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: they're also group chats, they're all kinds of things. There

701
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: are things that are being sent to you. If you

702
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: google something about eating disorders, you might get all sorts

703
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: of content. Is there anything specific that you were able

704
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: to parse out that seems to be behind these numbers?

705
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 3: Well, so for suicide, it's very hard to say because

706
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 3: suicide is still so rare, thankfully, so we don't really

707
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: have studies saying, you know, before she killed herself, she

708
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 3: did this and that's right, So we don't tend to

709
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 3: have that data. What I suspect is happening is it's

710
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 3: incredibly painful to be publicly shamed. It's incredibly painful to

711
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 3: be exclus alluded, to be a pariah. That's social death,

712
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 3: and the being on social media makes it possible to

713
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 3: be shamed at a magnitude far beyond what we could

714
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 3: ever have imagined when we were young. So you might

715
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 3: say something, you make a bad joke.

716
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: Is it like virtual bullying?

717
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 3: Yes, it's because the mob dynamics of social media are

718
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 3: such that it used to be if you said something

719
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 3: stupid or to your friend, your acquaintance group, and someone

720
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 3: was offended, they might spread rumors about you, and that

721
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 3: would painful to learn, but it wouldn't be the entire school,

722
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 3: and they wouldn't all be adding on and laughing at

723
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 3: you in a way that you can see. Things were

724
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 3: little back then. But with social media there's no limit

725
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 3: to how big it can get, and so it could

726
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 3: even go national with this stupid thing you said, or

727
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 3: it could go national. It's with you for the rest

728
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 3: of your life and when it's happening. In those first

729
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 3: days when something is going viral, we have these innate

730
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 3: social psychological mechanism that are always monitoring our reputation. How

731
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 3: am I doing? How am I doing? What do people

732
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 3: think of me? And especially if you're in an early teen,

733
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 3: you're so insecure about it, and.

734
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: So you're just developing your sense of self.

735
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 3: That's right. You know, you were in fifth grade a

736
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 3: couple of years ago, and it was fun. You were

737
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: playing with toys.

738
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,959
Speaker 1: And also your hormones or rating your body.

739
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 3: Your body's changing, that's right. That's right, which is another

740
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 3: reason it's hardest for girls because their bodies change more

741
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 3: visibly in ways that the public, that other people respond to.

742
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: And also the fact that so many girls post pictures

743
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: of themselves and bikinis, and then that results in a

744
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: lot of you know, eating disorders and feeling insecure about

745
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: unattainable beauty standards.

746
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 3: Exactly. That's right. So you know, when you and I

747
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: were growing up, there's a lot of talk about, oh,

748
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 3: you know, all these models and the magazines. It's really

749
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 3: bad for our girls. They shouldn't be seeing these super

750
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 3: thin models. And everyone's saying this is beauty, And yeah,

751
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 3: that was right. That was hard for girls. Well just

752
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: think how much harder it is when it's not some

753
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: strange adult in a magazine. It's literally all the people

754
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 3: you know posting photos in which they look more beautiful

755
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 3: than they do in real life. And you might even

756
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 3: know they're using filters, but unconsciously your brain is saying,

757
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 3: she's more beautiful than me, her life is more perfect

758
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 3: than me. Why don't I have a car like Why

759
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 3: doesn't my family have a car like that? So so,

760
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 3: for all these reasons, spending a lot of time on

761
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 3: Instagram in particular, it just really fosters a lot of

762
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 3: social comparison, which is hard for all kids, but especially

763
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 3: for the younger teen girls. So why I'm just so

764
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 3: adamant we really have to get this all out of

765
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 3: middle school. Just don't try to make it nicer, don't

766
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 3: try to filter things and remove the eating disorder content.

767
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 3: Just keep them the hell off. Yeah.

768
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to you about solutions in a moment,

769
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: but I want to tell you this terrible story I

770
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: heard this morning when I was taking a walk with

771
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: the friend. She had read this story, and I'm going

772
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: to find it to verify it that a young man

773
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: in Michigan his phone got hacked. He was sent this

774
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 1: very seductive picture. Do you know this story?

775
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 3: No, but this is a six story story.

776
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: I go ahead, and this woman, I guess, said, you

777
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: know I really like you or I mean just I

778
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 1: don't know, and send me a nude photo of yourself.

779
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,919
Speaker 1: The young man did, and then they were told that

780
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 1: we were going to blackmail you. Send five hundred dollars.

781
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 1: Now send another five hundred. This is, you know, like

782
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: eleventh grader. Finally, he said, we know everything about you.

783
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: We know your family, we know your siblings, we know

784
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: all of this information. We are going to destroy your life.

785
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 3: That suicide.

786
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: He killed himself. This was like the captain of the

787
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: football team, a kid everyone loved, from a nice family.

788
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: And it was so sick and so upsetting. And I

789
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: guess the FBI traced it to some Nigerian scam, but

790
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 1: that is so terrible.

791
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 3: These are the most and I've got some stories that

792
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 3: are even more horrible than that. But we don't know

793
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 3: how many this is happening to. But this is not

794
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 3: just like this thing happened to one kid. This has happened.

795
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 3: I don't know how many. But this is happening to

796
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 3: a bunch of kids. So this boy was not depressed.

797
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 3: This is not like, oh he was depressed and killed himself. No, No,

798
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 3: he was driven by fear and shame and horror into

799
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 3: killing himself and.

800
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: Then they started harassing his girlfriend.

801
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 3: So what I want parents to think about here is,

802
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 3: of course, we don't want our kids hanging out with

803
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 3: creeps that might sexually molest them. We don't want them

804
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 3: to go out into the world where where such things

805
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 3: can happen to them. But guess what, the creeps and

806
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 3: predators are not at your child's playground. They're on Instagram.

807
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 3: That's literally where they're hanging out because that's how they

808
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 3: can get to young girls, especially, and they can ask

809
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 3: for photos and they can pretend to be somebody they're not. So,

810
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 3: you know, I can summarize my whole book by saying,

811
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 3: we have overprotected our children in the real world, we

812
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 3: have underprotected them online. And the fact that some number

813
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 3: of kids, you know, is it hundreds, Is it that

814
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 3: since I don't know, get sex storted. I mean, this

815
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 3: is a thing now and now it's so profitable. There

816
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 3: are sextortion rings all around the world that are praying

817
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 3: on children. Why would you let your child do something

818
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 3: where strangers with bad intent can get to them?

819
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: After the break some good news? Why Jonathan thinks we're

820
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: at a tipping point where everyone is starting to not

821
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: only talk about this but take action. Now more of

822
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: my conversation with the one and only Jonathan Height. I

823
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: know that you've been to Capitol Hill and this conversation

824
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: has been going on a long time, but nothing seems

825
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: to get done. Do you feel like we're at a

826
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: tipping points, both by American parents and adults and also

827
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: by our leaders in Congress? And if so, what do

828
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: you say see them doing? Because it's frustrating that more

829
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: hasn't been done already.

830
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 3: That's right. I am certain we are at a tipping point.

831
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 3: And here's how I know. Before COVID, when I was

832
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 3: really began working on this, there was some ambiguity as

833
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 3: to what was the cause. We didn't know what to.

834
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: Do itation versus correlation, That's right.

835
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: And then you know in gene Tweengie and I were

836
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 3: sort of trying to demonstrate, look, there's actually a lot

837
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 3: of evidence of causation, and then COVID comes in confuses

838
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 3: everybody changes everything. Of course, our kids are spending all

839
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 3: day on screens now, and then when COVID fades away

840
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 3: and our kids are going back to school, there's still

841
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 3: really the depression and anxiety rates are still extremely high.

842
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 3: They're not really going down. So now it's clear, and

843
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 3: now everyone has seen it. Everyone is seen more about

844
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 3: what happens when their kids are online all day. So

845
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 3: there's an emerging sense among parents that this is just

846
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 3: really bad for our kids. And it's totally bipartisan. So

847
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 3: here's why I'm confident that things are going to change

848
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 3: in our incredibly divided country where our Congress can't really

849
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 3: do anything because if one side likes it, the other

850
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 3: sides against it. Right, everyone just about sees the problem.

851
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 3: Most legislators are parents, Most of our congress people are parents.

852
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 3: And what I went down I was giving some talks

853
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 3: in Washington. I met with some members of Congress and

854
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 3: the group I met with a volunteer to come. It

855
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 3: was half Democrats, half Republicans. There are a couple of

856
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 3: bills that I think have a really good chance of passages.

857
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: The main one is COSA, the Kids Online Safety Act,

858
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: which requires the companies to assume a duty of care.

859
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 3: That is, they have to realize children are not adults.

860
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 3: You can't do the dirty tricks you do on adults.

861
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 3: You can't do those to kids. You have to give

862
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 3: them more private you can't make them discover by strangers.

863
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 3: So cosa I'm really hopeful that really could pass this year.

864
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 3: The big thing that we need to protect kids is

865
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 3: to raise the age from thirteen to sixteen. Congress set

866
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 3: a law in nineteen ninety eight that said you have

867
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 3: to be thirteen years old in order to sign a

868
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 3: contract with a company like AOL or whatever.

869
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: You get around that. Though, well, hold, wait.

870
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 3: Hold on. The law says, at what age can a

871
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 3: company just take your day without your parents even knowing

872
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 3: about it? Or And what Congress said was, as long

873
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: as you're thirteen, will treat you like an adult, and

874
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 3: you can make deals with companies without even your parents

875
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 3: knowing or giving permission. But oh, by the way, the

876
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 3: lobbyists god is to gut the enforcement procedures. So as

877
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 3: long as the company doesn't know for sure that you're

878
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 3: under thirteen, they're okay. So as long as you say

879
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 3: you're thirteen, you can't sue the company for what they do, right,

880
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 3: So that's a terrible law in nineteen ninety eight, and

881
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 3: that was the last law Congress ever passed to protect

882
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 3: children or regulate the en It was complete failure, and

883
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 3: there's been zero since then. I think they realize it now.

884
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 3: And here's why I think it's going to change, because

885
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 3: politicians are very good at sensing when there is a

886
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 3: groundswell of public support. They want to be ahead of that,

887
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 3: not behind it. And so this is why I think

888
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 3: we're seeing a lot of action in the states, a

889
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 3: lot of state governors.

890
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: In Florida, Fia state you can't sign up for social

891
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: media until.

892
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 3: Till you're sixteen. Until you're sixteen, but with parents. So

893
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 3: that was original bills until you're sixteen, which is what

894
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 3: I'm advocating. But in Florida they in the lobbying and

895
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 3: they put in provision if you're fourteen or fifteen, you

896
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 3: can do it if you have your parents' permission. And

897
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 3: I'm okay with that because that will force the companies

898
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 3: to develop a way of getting parental permission, which they

899
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 3: don't want to do. But come on, we have to

900
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 3: One objection I get is, oh, the government shouldn't be

901
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 3: involved in this. It should be up to the parents

902
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 3: how they raise their kids. Yeah, but we can't control

903
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 3: it unless we lock our kids up and never let

904
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 3: them get near a web browser. Putting a requirement for

905
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 3: parental permission in the law will motivate the companies to

906
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 3: figure out how to do it, and then finally we

907
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 3: parents will have more tools to actually raise our kids

908
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 3: the way we want to.

909
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: And it's all about sort of working with other parents,

910
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: which I think is absolutely the key. And you have

911
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: recommendations for how we solve or maybe rewire our kids' brains.

912
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 1: Again back to I don't know, is it a lost

913
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:52,959
Speaker 1: cause at some point?

914
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, it's two different things. One is how do

915
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 3: we prevent jen alpha, which is let's say born after

916
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 3: twenty eleven ch Yeah, that you know, because they know

917
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 3: gen Z. You go back to alpha.

918
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: At the beginning, Whaney said, it was like, wasn't it

919
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 1: like polars?

920
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, we'll see what name sticks, right, We

921
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 3: don't know yet. Yeah, but let's suppose it's going to

922
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 3: be jin alpha. So the most important thing is to

923
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 3: just stop them from getting sucked into this vortex that

924
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 3: it consumed gen Z. The next thing is, well, when

925
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 3: we do to help the kids were born between nineteen

926
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 3: ninety six and twenty eleven. And so what I'm proposing

927
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 3: is four norms, which are hard to do if you're

928
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 3: acting on your own, but if a group of parents,

929
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 3: or especially if a community around a school does it,

930
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 3: they're actually easy to do. So here they are. One,

931
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 3: no smartphone before high school. Give kids a flip phone,

932
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,720
Speaker 3: a phone, watch, or nothing, but delay smartphones until high school.

933
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 3: Two is no social media until sixteen. There's really no

934
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 3: way these things are unsafe at any speed for kids

935
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 3: going through puberty. Let them get through early puberty. The

936
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 3: third is phone free schools. Just put this. Put the

937
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 3: phones in a locker or a yonder pouch first thing

938
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 3: in the morning. I mean a special phone locker, not

939
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 3: your own personal locker. They have to be taken away

940
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 3: so that at lunch and between classes kids are talking

941
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 3: to each other they're not all looking at their phones.

942
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: My husband said, why can't there be a phone that

943
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 1: could be put on school mode. You know, we talked

944
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: about school shooting, so could there be something that says

945
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: it's only available to text to you know, your parents. Yes,

946
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 1: that would be John said, he's not an engineer, but

947
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: he thinks that's a good idea.

948
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 3: I know some people have advocated that Apple created school Mode.

949
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 3: It's better than nothing. But still, the idea is you

950
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 3: can be text with your parents all day long.

951
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: No, no, but if there's a school shooting or there's

952
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: something bad happens, I know that that's unlikely. But as

953
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: you and I have discussed before, that's one reason parents

954
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: really worry about not having their kids with a phone.

955
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I understand that. But but the experts on

956
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 3: school safety say is that you're much better off in

957
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 3: a school where the adults have a phone and the

958
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 3: kids are listening and following directions and they're quiet and

959
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 3: they're doing what they're supposed to do, rather than a

960
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 3: school and which as soon as there's a problem, everyone's

961
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 3: on their phone crying to their parents. That's just not

962
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 3: an effective way to deal with the school shooting.

963
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: And finally, it's more independence, free play, and responsibility in

964
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: the real world.

965
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 3: That's right, So this is really important. Discussion tends to

966
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 3: focus on the phones because that's what we're all upset about.

967
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,479
Speaker 3: But if we're going to roll back the phone based

968
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 3: childhood so that our kids are not spending the latest

969
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 3: numbers are nine or ten hours a day on average

970
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 3: of leisure time on screens and phones. If we're going

971
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 3: to roll that back and cut that way down, we

972
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 3: have to give them back a positive childhood, the kind

973
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 3: of childhood that we had and their grandparents and great grandparents,

974
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 3: which has a lot of play, a lot of hanging out,

975
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:36,959
Speaker 3: a lot of independence. So we have to do both.

976
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 3: We have to roll back the phone based childhood. We

977
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 3: have to restore the play based childhood.

978
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: You have a lot of hope, but are we at

979
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: the point of no return? Are people and society in

980
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: general so addicted to their digital devices the genie is

981
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 1: out of the bottle. I mean, I hope that's not true,

982
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: But I just wonder how realistic you're being.

983
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 3: So let's use a different meta or another one. I

984
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,399
Speaker 3: hear is you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube,

985
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 3: to which I say, if your children's life depended on

986
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,879
Speaker 3: you getting toothpaste back in a tube, you'd figure out

987
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 3: a way. You know that train has left the station.

988
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 3: If the train left the station, it was loaded with

989
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 3: our kids and was headed for a bridge that was out,

990
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: and we knew they were all going to plunge to

991
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 3: their death. We'd probably call it back. So, yeah, it's

992
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 3: going to be hard getting rid of all the chromebooks

993
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 3: and iPads and all the things in school that they

994
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 3: use to text. That's going to be really hard. But

995
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 3: all of that is doable. But let's start with the

996
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 3: phone to.

997
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: Do that though, I mean, if it's not attached to social.

998
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 3: Media, but a lot of it is, a lot of

999
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 3: it is, well.

1000
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: Just don't attach it to social medium. Makes it technology

1001
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: that's built for learning.

1002
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 3: Yes, So I do think if because I had this

1003
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 3: discussion in Washington with a policy expert who was saying

1004
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 3: con Academy is so great that the teacher can assign

1005
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 3: and the con Academy has you know, AI intelligent, that's

1006
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 3: all great. So I said, you know what if you

1007
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 3: could have like an iPad or a special device that

1008
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 3: only did con academy that is all, and you could

1009
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 3: have that on your desk, that I think would probably

1010
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 3: be positive. But as long as it's a multifunction device

1011
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 3: that has twenty three things the kid can do, the

1012
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 3: distraction effects are going to swamp whatever educational benefits. If

1013
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 3: we talk again next year, we'll talk about the ed

1014
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 3: tech because I'm just learning about that let's start with

1015
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 3: the phones, because that is the child's personal portal to

1016
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 3: the entire internet. That is the way that strangers can

1017
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 3: get to your child, companies can get to your child.

1018
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 3: So let's just delay that till high school minimum.

1019
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: Which would be great if their parents could stop using

1020
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: the phone. And I want to ask you about parental

1021
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: modeling because John Downs, who was at a book event

1022
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: for you last night, we walked out together and he said,

1023
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: I really wanted to ask Jonathan this question. He's the

1024
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: headmaster at the Millbrook School, and he said, what about parents.

1025
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: Kids see their parents constantly on their phones. I worry

1026
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 1: that there's less and less interaction with children and their parents.

1027
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: You see go the playground, you see all the parents

1028
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 1: or the babysitters on phones. You see people pushing strong

1029
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: instead of pointing out things for their kids to look at,

1030
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: they're on their phone. So JO parents have some responsibility

1031
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: before they start.

1032
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 3: They do they do, especially for infants and toddlers who

1033
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 3: are They're trying their brains are trying to figure out

1034
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 3: how do I do this interaction thing and turn taking

1035
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 3: and timing and making jokes. And so I would urge

1036
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 3: parents of young children to avoid what's called continuous partial attention.

1037
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 3: It's where you're kind of aware what your kid is doing,

1038
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 3: but you're also trying to do your email and text

1039
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 3: and you're doing a bad job of both.

1040
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: That's such a bad signal to kids about what's important.

1041
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes I have friends who children have

1042
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: been desperate in saying, Mom, get off the phone, get

1043
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: off the phone. And you know it's really hard.

1044
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 3: Yeah it is. But the one thing I want to

1045
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 3: point out here is because I get this question a lot,

1046
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 3: like aren't the kids just copying us? And I think

1047
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 3: the answer is no. If you think about an eleven

1048
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 3: or twelve year old kid and her her parents are

1049
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,720
Speaker 3: on their phone all the time, and her friends aren't

1050
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 3: on phones. They're out playing, which is going to be

1051
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 3: more influential. Kids are much more focused on what their

1052
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 3: friends are doing.

1053
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: Now.

1054
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 3: Conversely, you have a kid all her friends are on

1055
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 3: their phones all the time, they're all on Instagram, and

1056
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 3: you have parents who are perfect models of digital maturity

1057
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 3: and they use their phone really in healthy ways. What's

1058
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 3: the kid going to do uninfluenced by the parents, They're

1059
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 3: going to do whatever the other kids are doing. So

1060
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 3: our parental behavior is extremely important.

1061
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,439
Speaker 1: For instance, karents do still Ellen Golinsky, who I'm sure

1062
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: you know, just wrote a book and she still talks

1063
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: about how hugely important influential parents are in their children's behavior.

1064
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 3: Well, yes, I mean, of course parents are influential. But

1065
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 3: the simple idea that our kids are copying us is

1066
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 3: there's some truth to it when they're very young, but

1067
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,479
Speaker 3: we don't have that kind of direct influence. They're much

1068
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 3: more concerned about their peers are doing. And what I

1069
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 3: just said is far more true after twenty ten. When

1070
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 3: you hook kids up by social media, there's just not

1071
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 3: much room in their input stream for their parents.

1072
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: So if you want to get your kids off their

1073
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: phone or delay giving them a phone, you really have

1074
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: to reach out to your parental community. Yes, and almost

1075
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: sign a pledge, right and kind of say, this is

1076
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: how we're going to operate. Is everyone with us, and

1077
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:18,800
Speaker 1: you present the information and the evidence that not doing

1078
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: that could have really dangerous consequences.

1079
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 3: That's right. The key is cooperation. We're all stuck in

1080
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 3: a collective action problem. If we do it together, it

1081
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 3: becomes easy. And so, for example, there's a really great

1082
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 3: organization called Wait until Eighth, which eighth grade. That's right,

1083
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 3: in which parents sign a pledge when the kids are

1084
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 3: in first or second grade, and then once fifty people

1085
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 3: I think it is in that school or that grade agree,

1086
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,879
Speaker 3: the pledge becomes live and now you have a support group.

1087
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 4: Now.

1088
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 3: The only problem is eighth grade is too early. Eighth

1089
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,800
Speaker 3: grade is actually still in middle school, and I'm adamant

1090
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 3: we have to get this all out in middle school.

1091
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 3: So the people wait until eight They've actually changed it.

1092
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 3: It's wait until the end of eighth So you know,

1093
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 3: we're all.

1094
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: Maybe they should say wait until tenth. But by the way,

1095
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: I think high school is held to So I mean,

1096
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 1: puberty is awful, but high school can be helped.

1097
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 3: Oh, no, it absolutely is. Look, if we were just

1098
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 3: doing this for health, I would say wait till eighteen.

1099
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 3: Like kids should not be on you know, they should

1100
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 3: certainly not be on social media. And in Europe, where

1101
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 3: they don't have this, we have this break in America

1102
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 3: mostly between eighth and ninth grade. And because I'm a

1103
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 3: social psychologist, I'm not focused on the child's age. I'm

1104
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 3: focused on the community. And a middle school can do

1105
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 3: things a high school. They're also dependent on the phones.

1106
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 3: They assume every kid has a phone. It's going to

1107
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 3: be very hard to get the phones out of the

1108
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 3: lives of high school kids, but middle school we can do.

1109
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 3: So that's why I'm so focused on that.

1110
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 1: Why do Europeans seem to be take this much more

1111
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: seriously than Americans? Because hasn't there been legislation and all

1112
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:46,800
Speaker 1: kinds of actions.

1113
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 3: So in Europe they have a very different idea about regulation.

1114
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 3: In the EU, they love regulation. They think it's appropriate

1115
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 3: for the government to determine all sorts of things. In America,

1116
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,240
Speaker 3: we have a much more libertarian streak. We think, especially

1117
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 3: the federal government. You know, the Tenth Amendment says here's

1118
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:03,839
Speaker 3: what the federal government can do. Everything else is up

1119
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 3: to the states. And in Britain it's in between. I

1120
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 3: just in fact, I was just talking with some British

1121
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 3: people today. In Britain, they are trying to pass a

1122
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,800
Speaker 3: law that says that you can't buy a smartphone until

1123
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 3: you are sixteen. Now, that doesn't make any sense. In America,

1124
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 3: We're not going to have the government saying what you

1125
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 3: can and can't buy in terms of a product.

1126
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 1: Well, we do for cigarettes and alcohol.

1127
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 3: But right because those those are more directly linked to illnesses.

1128
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,959
Speaker 3: What I'm saying is in Europe they have different ideas

1129
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 3: about government than we do. And often I think that's

1130
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 3: been good. I think we have a more vibrant economy

1131
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,239
Speaker 3: because of that. But there are times, as with gun

1132
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 3: control and assault rifles and now sports gambling, there's all

1133
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 3: sorts of hazards for kids. I think our government does

1134
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 3: need to be more active.

1135
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: And a selfish question to end this conversation with, As

1136
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: you might know, Jonathan, or maybe you don't, I recently

1137
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: became a grandmother. My daughter Ellie has a little boy

1138
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: who is about a month old. So what would you

1139
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: advise Ellie and her husband Mark in terms of using

1140
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 1: the phone. You know, when they hold little Jay, they're

1141
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: reading their phones, they're looking at articles, they're taking pictures

1142
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: of him, and I think, oh my god, he's going

1143
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: to get as used to the phone being around his

1144
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: face as he is. Ellie and Mark, Yeah.

1145
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 3: That's right. The urge to take pictures of your kids

1146
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,879
Speaker 3: all the time is so strong. I'm not saying don't

1147
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 3: take pictures, but just recognize. What I would advise for

1148
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 3: them is aim for more analog childhood. Find some other

1149
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 3: families as he gets older, find some other families that

1150
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 3: agree with you. We're at a tipping point. It might

1151
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 3: have been hard to find those families five years ago.

1152
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 3: In two or three years, most families are going to

1153
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 3: be this way. So find other families. Try to find

1154
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 3: ways for the kids to get together, to just be

1155
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 3: around each other, and some toys. Toys can be a

1156
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 3: couple of cardboard boxes. The kids will find something to

1157
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 3: do with it and it'll be fun. So they're in

1158
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 3: great shape. Things are going to get a lot lot

1159
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 3: better over the coming years because almost everyone is fed up.

1160
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 3: Almost everyone is ready for change, and so if we

1161
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 3: do this together, it's going to change.

1162
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 1: Jonathan Height, I always love talking to you. The book

1163
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: is The Anxious Generation, how the great rewiring of childhood

1164
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: is causing an epidemic of mental illness. Let's hope you're

1165
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: right that we're at a real tipping point, because you

1166
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: know so many lives depend on that.

1167
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 4: Well.

1168
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 3: Thanks Katie, thanks for having me on.

1169
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: Special. Thanks to Kate McLoughlin for interviewing those young people

1170
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 1: for today's episode. Thanks for listening everyone. If you have

1171
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,399
Speaker 1: a question for me, a subject you want us to cover,

1172
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: or you want to share your thoughts about how you

1173
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a

1174
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 1: short message at six h nine five point two five

1175
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 1: to five oh five, or you can send me a

1176
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.

1177
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media.

1178
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Me, Katiekuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our

1179
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana

1180
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music.

1181
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,480
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1182
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 1: for my newsletter wake Up Call, go to the description

1183
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,600
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1184
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,240
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1185
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:39,040
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1186
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:43,280
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1187
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