Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast.
Speaker 2: You can't predict any of this. The Meat Eater Podcast
Speaker 2: is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking
Speaker 2: trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for el, First
Speaker 2: Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment.
Speaker 2: Check it out at first light dot com. F I
Speaker 2: R S T L I T E dot com. Dude,
Speaker 2: I'm up to my neck and nostalgia right now being
Speaker 2: here Cal you're feeling it?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Missoula, Missoula guy for sure.
Speaker 2: Is the reason you can't put that on your head?
Speaker 3: Well, because I'm supposed to bequeued up to record Clay
Speaker 3: on the guitar.
Speaker 2: Oh well, putting it on for a second.
Speaker 3: Well, who's doing the runner show?
Speaker 2: How long is it gonna take you to put on?
Speaker 2: There we go.
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to be very respectful to our guys
Speaker 3: who are editing these things. We're like, don't touch the
Speaker 3: idem microphone.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, well I can tell you that that guys
Speaker 4: is me. Yes, and this is a special special case,
Speaker 4: go ahead and touch the mic I.
Speaker 2: Spent I mean I lived here for almost a decade.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, just just this building alone, the Wilma a
Speaker 3: lot of We could do an entire podcast based off
Speaker 3: of experiences had in and around the Wilma Theater.
Speaker 2: I have spent nights in this building, as have I. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I had an older girlfriend that lived above us. Ye
Speaker 2: right now, she doesn't know that right now, but she
Speaker 2: did live there right now. And back in those days
Speaker 2: they didn't have a regular elevator. There was an elevator man.
Speaker 2: This is in the late nineties. There was an elevator
Speaker 2: man that had to operate the elevator with a throw switch.
Speaker 2: His name was Scoot and Newton. And anytime if you
Speaker 2: came in at two in the morning, after the bars closed,
Speaker 2: you'd knock on Scoot and Newton's door. He slept in
Speaker 2: his Chuck Taylor's. He would come out and do the
Speaker 2: out deliver you to your floor. And the hydraulics were
Speaker 2: a little weird in the elevator, so it'd always settle
Speaker 2: and Scoot and Newton would like he'd overshoot the room.
Speaker 2: He'd play the settle, he'd overshoot the room, throw the switch,
Speaker 2: and he'd always be looking at that crack.
Speaker 5: A man who knows his equipment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he'd always be looking at that crack, and you
Speaker 2: could tell that he'd like to just layer in there,
Speaker 2: right flush, That's right.
Speaker 3: It wasn't about customer satisfaction. It was just about him
Speaker 3: being pro at his game.
Speaker 2: Yep. I'm sure there's probably like weather changes would throw
Speaker 2: that thing off, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but an old building.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then I saw Steve Earle here. Oh cool.
Speaker 2: In my Buffalo book, I talk about a guy a
Speaker 2: very pinnacle like a like a a major player, kind
Speaker 2: of a major player in Buffalo restoration. The animal Recovery
Speaker 2: of the species drank himself to death under the bridge
Speaker 2: that we're under right now. When I was working on
Speaker 2: my first book, Scavenger's Gude to Oak Cuisine, the pigeons
Speaker 2: I was raising I caught under this bridge. We'd come
Speaker 2: down here with a extension ladder at night, hoping not
Speaker 2: get trouble with the cops, and catch pigeons and collect
Speaker 2: eggs under here and raise them. Not far from here,
Speaker 2: the crayfish in that book came from under this bridge.
Speaker 2: One time I was walking over this bridge and saw
Speaker 2: a bike in the river and rode that bike for
Speaker 2: years until someone stole it. Get this at this building. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I found it one hundred yards from here and lost
Speaker 2: it twenty yards from here. I had two.
Speaker 3: Buddies that decided it would be a great idea, like
Speaker 3: the best idea ever to have rooms in this building,
Speaker 3: and then like very quickly decided that being in such
Speaker 3: tight proximity to all the bars and stuff was actually
Speaker 3: in fact a bad idea to live in this building.
Speaker 3: So they vacated pretty quick, but they lived here. And
Speaker 3: then my high school, Hellgate High School, we used to
Speaker 3: do like cleanups for you know civil service type of
Speaker 3: days that were always right down here, cleaning up you know,
Speaker 3: trash and all that stuff. The playground. I got some
Speaker 3: dirty stories about that playground, but the clean ones, it
Speaker 3: was like we came down and helped, like it was
Speaker 3: like a habitat for humanity project or something that we
Speaker 3: chipped in and built part of that playground through the
Speaker 3: high school and then yeah, bartended it at Red's and
Speaker 3: Missoula Club, which is you know, stone's throw from here Cow.
Speaker 2: The first night I ever spent in Montana, I came
Speaker 2: in from the way, like my brother Danny was doing
Speaker 2: a job working on a salmon project on a walla
Speaker 2: wall of Washington. He was working on like a snake river.
Speaker 3: The city is so nice?
Speaker 2: Is that what it is?
Speaker 3: They named it twice?
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, okay, is it what river's right there? Is
Speaker 2: that the same? Yea, no, no, no, it's the salmon Anyways,
Speaker 2: he was working on a salmon project there. I was
Speaker 2: still finishing up regular college in Michigan. I flew out here,
Speaker 2: me and him went fishing all over Hell. We fished
Speaker 2: the Saint Joe's. Uh fished. We fished the court Lane.
Speaker 2: We fishing Courtlane around there and went we fished the
Speaker 2: Saint Joe's. Came in a ninety from the west, Okay,
Speaker 2: And I just remember like kind of like entering this town.
Speaker 2: And we decided to stop here for the night. And
Speaker 2: we first thing we did was we went to this
Speaker 2: place that later became like appears like a bar pizza joint. Well,
Speaker 2: we found a hotel and we got a steep discount
Speaker 2: because some dudes had changed the oil of their motorcycle.
Speaker 2: In the hotel. There was a motel and there was
Speaker 2: a there was an oil stain the size of a
Speaker 2: bushel basket that sounds like the thunderbird and they gave
Speaker 2: us like they let us have it for next to nothing.
Speaker 2: They're like, well, we have a room, but we're not
Speaker 2: letting it out because these assholes were changing their motorcycles
Speaker 2: oil in the room and spilled it over. But you
Speaker 2: guys could take the room and got for next to nothing.
Speaker 2: Went down to that like pizza joint bar. I can't, oh, Rhino?
Speaker 3: Did the Rhino have pizza?
Speaker 2: I don't remember. Maybe later became Pete, went to the Rhino,
Speaker 2: went to Charlie Bees, where I wound up spending like
Speaker 2: years of my life. Went to Charlie Be's. I remember
Speaker 2: seeing like there was a lot of girls there that
Speaker 2: had like h like scabs on their elbows and knees,
Speaker 2: like hard hitting rafting guides right, And I thought, man,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna come to school here. And I'm not kidding
Speaker 2: you because I was fixing to go to graduate school.
Speaker 2: Went down to the university this is like in the summer,
Speaker 2: walked all around and got a pamphlet. I mean I
Speaker 2: got a pamphlet simpler times. Yeah, I got a pamphlet
Speaker 2: from the school in a building that I later got
Speaker 2: a job scrubbing the toilets in. When I first got
Speaker 2: into school and at that point forward pretty much had
Speaker 2: my mind fixed on moving to this town and all
Speaker 2: those adventures, right, like this is all happening like right here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just just something clicked with you.
Speaker 2: It's like one last thing.
Speaker 3: Missoula was way different.
Speaker 2: Way different. It was crazy.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, when the town changed a bunch as like
Speaker 3: the mills shut down because there was actually like shift
Speaker 3: work going on. And this isn't like a point of
Speaker 3: pride or anything. But you know, people would probably think
Speaker 3: I'm lying if I was like, well, yeah, there was
Speaker 3: a strip club on main Street, like the main strip
Speaker 3: of downtown stores.
Speaker 2: Yeah, delt Poker, right, Brains and Eggs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, people would be like, no, that doesn't know, No,
Speaker 3: next to the wine bar. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's
Speaker 3: just weird, weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah. What was that place called? I've been in there.
Speaker 3: The Oxford is still there.
Speaker 2: No, they had the club, the Gentleman's Club.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I can't remember the name of it at
Speaker 3: this point either. But Von Richter, my old manager at
Speaker 3: Red's Bar, uh, that's where he started bartending, was down there.
Speaker 2: One of my one of my pinnacle moments as a writer.
Speaker 2: I was living I was living on the other side
Speaker 2: of the river more towards the university from here, and
Speaker 2: I had just done this deal where I'd been up
Speaker 2: bear hunting up on the north fork of the Flathead,
Speaker 2: and we're coming back, and like it was so weird.
Speaker 2: There'd been a big burn, it was called the Moose Fire,
Speaker 2: and there's just trucks lined up and down the road,
Speaker 2: trucks and campers and stuff. There's a lot of glacier traffic, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: what's going on? I remember guys like me mells shiploads,
Speaker 2: and it was just like unlike one of those burn
Speaker 2: sprouts or just you couldn't even comprehend the amount of morals.
Speaker 2: I remember there was a moose track, like a moose
Speaker 2: had come through that burn after and when it was
Speaker 2: kind of wet and sooty, and a moose had come
Speaker 2: through that burn and whatever his tracks had like done
Speaker 2: something magical to the ash and compressed it in some way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and track full of morels, Yeah, morels everywhere. And so
Speaker 2: I came home and there was a very influential it's
Speaker 2: still around, but at the time, the New Yorker magazine
Speaker 2: was like a super influential magazine, and I had like
Speaker 2: I knew some guys that I met through school that
Speaker 2: wrote there, and one of Ian Fraser was like, you
Speaker 2: should do a talk of the town. These things, these
Speaker 2: like little news bits in the front of the New
Speaker 2: Yorker which were prestigious. Then it's like, you should do
Speaker 2: a talk of the town on fires and morals. And
Speaker 2: I couldn't. And I knew I had a deadline, like
Speaker 2: it had to be immediate, right, And I dropped everything
Speaker 2: and I worked on that thing like no one had
Speaker 2: It's at talk of the Town is eight hundred words.
Speaker 2: I worked on that all like like twelve hours a day,
Speaker 2: sixteen hours a day, whatever it was. It took me three.
Speaker 6: Weeks because I knew I had a chance, and I
Speaker 6: knew they were interested in seeing it. It took me
Speaker 6: three weeks crippling anxiety or and the only break I
Speaker 6: would take, I'm not kidding you, is we would go in.
Speaker 6: We would go in and we could.
Speaker 2: Walk down kind of like go on one angle from
Speaker 2: our house and jump into the Clark Fork River with
Speaker 2: an inner tube. It was hot that summer, and you
Speaker 2: could float through town and cool off and swim and
Speaker 2: whatnot and get out and walk at a different angle
Speaker 2: back to the house. Yeah, remember one time coming down
Speaker 2: and hitting.
Speaker 3: This pointing because you floated down you.
Speaker 2: Kind of like float past your house and you know
Speaker 2: you're coming like like you're like, let's say your house
Speaker 2: is at the hub of a wheel. You follow one
Speaker 2: spoke out at a forty five, it in and come
Speaker 2: back at another spoke out of forty five. Super hot day.
Speaker 2: I remember coming down there, like trying somehow to get
Speaker 2: my article and getting out at the bridge, like getting
Speaker 2: out right where we're at and walking up Higgins and
Speaker 2: getting a smoothie and having a laugh because coming back
Speaker 2: I could still see my wet footprints coming up out
Speaker 2: of the river. Got back in river and eventually got
Speaker 2: that thing done and they published it, and it was
Speaker 2: like something mentally, like something happened to me mentally, And
Speaker 2: then I was do you know what I mean? Oh,
Speaker 2: that's like something mentally happened to me after having accomplished that.
Speaker 3: That's amazing. It's just like, how much just straight up
Speaker 3: dicking around you did in this town. That was wasted
Speaker 3: so much time unproductive compared to that wasted so much time.
Speaker 7: What have you two crossed pens at anytime?
Speaker 2: Oh? I'm sure, Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.
Speaker 3: For a while, I thought Steve was a teacher of mine.
Speaker 3: Like when we were first starting to get to know
Speaker 3: each other. I had this class, you know, it was
Speaker 3: all taught by grad students, and it was a writing class,
Speaker 3: and I was like, when we first started getting to
Speaker 3: know each other, I was like, oh my god, this
Speaker 3: is just like we're going to see each other eye
Speaker 3: to die and make this connection of immediately disliking each
Speaker 3: other because I had a big blow up. We were
Speaker 3: like setting trustes or something. At the job site. I
Speaker 3: had an A in the class, and the thing that was,
Speaker 3: I had an A in everything curriculum based. I had
Speaker 3: an F in attendance. And I was always like trying
Speaker 3: to make the case of like, well, I actually am
Speaker 3: working versus you the graduate student who just sit here
Speaker 3: and do nothing. Graduate students love that when they're in
Speaker 3: a teaching position.
Speaker 2: That was mean. I'll tell you how I know it
Speaker 2: wasn't me when I applied to come here. There's a
Speaker 2: whole long story. It even involves when OJ was running
Speaker 2: away in his Tronto and his Bronco. I'm not kidding you.
Speaker 3: I can still see my grandma just plugged in to
Speaker 3: that every day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is how I came to be here, plays
Speaker 2: into OJ's truck chase. It's so weird. I can't get
Speaker 2: you all the details. I applied for a like a
Speaker 2: fellowship where you get a tuition waiver, didn't get it.
Speaker 2: They kind of like the program I was in was
Speaker 2: like a lot of like Ivy League kids, kids from
Speaker 2: real high flute in school, not from a ski gun,
Speaker 2: but would roll the dice on like like now and
Speaker 2: then like roll the dice on an unexpected candidate, and
Speaker 2: like I later learned, I was like the dice roll Okay.
Speaker 2: So I tried to get a fellowship and I didn't
Speaker 2: get a fellowship, so I had to come anyway and
Speaker 2: pay tuition. So I couldn't afford the tuition, so I
Speaker 2: had to come and take a light course load and
Speaker 2: to get residency.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: Later as I came to establish myself within the program,
Speaker 2: they offered me a fellowship, but out of pride, because
Speaker 2: they didn't give it to me when I wanted it.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't take it just by that. I was doing
Speaker 2: tree work anyways. But the first when I came, I
Speaker 2: had to get like while I was trying to find
Speaker 2: a regular job. I had to get a part time job,
Speaker 2: and so you could get a part time job through
Speaker 2: the school, and they gave me a job. My classes
Speaker 2: were all in the LA building. They gave me a job.
Speaker 2: I'm not kidding you. They gave me a job scrubbing
Speaker 2: toilets in the building where all my classes were. And
Speaker 2: it would put these Ivy League kids in this super
Speaker 2: weird situation. They'd come in to take a piss and
Speaker 2: there I am their classmates scrubbing the toilet, and I
Speaker 2: remember one of them was so like kind of like
Speaker 2: taking it back they put they put out the at
Speaker 2: least it must be convenient, because you're right here.
Speaker 3: You're like, yeah, yeah, I'm glad we have that.
Speaker 2: That's why I took the job. Yeah, dude, it was
Speaker 2: a wild, wild time in my life. Man. Oh I
Speaker 2: so later tonight you're gonna hear uh, we're gonna do
Speaker 2: a show up here. I saw Steve Earl. I can't
Speaker 2: even think of who.
Speaker 3: I say, you need to get Steve Earl on the podcast.
Speaker 3: He's he's a public Lands dude, loves to fish.
Speaker 2: The reason I haven't is we just totally disagree on
Speaker 2: capital punishment. But I just don't see that coming up.
Speaker 5: I would love to have a feeling it could be
Speaker 5: a freewheeling conversation.
Speaker 2: I would love to have him on. I don't want
Speaker 2: to talk about Capitol Punt. There's plenty of places we lined.
Speaker 2: I saw him in Bozeman, I saw him in Missoula.
Speaker 2: Our playlist that we play before the live shows, so
Speaker 2: when we turn our playlists on tonight has Steve Earl
Speaker 2: tunes on it. Huge.
Speaker 3: Steve Earl ticks me off about uh folks who like
Speaker 3: don't listen to Steve Earl and they're like, yeah, I'm
Speaker 3: going to Steve Earl concert. They'll be like, oh, is
Speaker 3: he gonna play? And they'll rattle off like one of his.
Speaker 6: Hits, Copperhead Rode I hope so like copper Yeah exactly,
Speaker 6: And you're like, sure, hope, so is.
Speaker 2: What I want? Or is he gonna do? I feel
Speaker 2: all right, Oh that's good, that's my too.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Galway girl's great man.
Speaker 2: I'd love he's a fisherman.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I just feel so strongly about capital punishment.
Speaker 3: In favor of lightening our tax load.
Speaker 2: No, just something and I don't think of it as
Speaker 2: like I don't think of it as deterrent. I just
Speaker 2: think there's some things that are so heinous. I just
Speaker 2: think of it like a revenge.
Speaker 7: It's on brand that you supported the gravel pit dog
Speaker 7: killing then of Christin Yes, okay, they did brand.
Speaker 3: In the Guardian article they did use the word execution,
Speaker 3: which I go back and forth with, like using that
Speaker 3: type of language, which I feel is like typically reserved
Speaker 3: for humans.
Speaker 2: Well you remember when Pebble's the bear was killed, he
Speaker 2: was assassinated?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that, uh, what I feel like is a
Speaker 3: grossly out of taste, out of touch those billboards that
Speaker 3: are around Bozeman, which is like stop the bison genocide.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, sense yeah, Like.
Speaker 3: Like let's just round up a handful of tribes in
Speaker 3: Montana and see what their association to genocide is.
Speaker 2: That it's pretty out of touch. It's misleading word choice,
Speaker 2: which is something I never engage in. We're gonna do
Speaker 2: a show tonight here in the Wilmot, which is which
Speaker 2: is uh, like I said, heat with nostalgia. And one
Speaker 2: thing we're gonna hear tonight is we're gonna hear Clay
Speaker 2: and Phil perform and Phil, do you have a mic
Speaker 2: on Phil?
Speaker 3: I do? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Phil has been playing at all of our live shows.
Speaker 2: Phil has been playing his harmonica, which you're not a
Speaker 2: historic harmonica player.
Speaker 4: No, I Uh, I heard Clay was playing playing the show,
Speaker 4: and I kind of wanted to just make myself more
Speaker 4: useful on this tour. Is honestly, when I've decided when
Speaker 4: I was asked to come, I didn't know what I
Speaker 4: was going to be doing.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: So I was like, oh, I don't I don't just
Speaker 4: want to be uh dead weight. So I asked Clay, like, hey,
Speaker 4: would you want some accompaniment? And he was super generous
Speaker 4: and said said yes. So I was like, man, I
Speaker 4: should I got to learn an instrument. I can play
Speaker 4: with Clay, but I've played music all throughout my childhood
Speaker 4: in high school. So it's like I think I told you,
Speaker 4: I'm like master of none and jack of all trade,
Speaker 4: Like I can I can learn something quickly. I'm not,
Speaker 4: by any means a.
Speaker 3: Great harmonica player, but I get it. I get the
Speaker 3: job done.
Speaker 5: Did you choose the harmonica for the ease of transport?
Speaker 3: That was definitely a factor.
Speaker 2: Well, he blew went out on the tour.
Speaker 5: Really, yeah, I didn't know you could blow out hard,
Speaker 5: you know, I did play it so hot it only
Speaker 5: lasted him three nights.
Speaker 3: We need the fortnight show. We need to get him
Speaker 3: one of those vests so he can have several harps.
Speaker 5: Well, yes, and a.
Speaker 2: Bob Dylan holder.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2: So his hands are free.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: I think you should do both the songs. You get
Speaker 2: well of them. Well, you don't want to do both
Speaker 2: your No, I mean yeah, I can't.
Speaker 6: I'd say it's a lot of live music for a podcast. Okay,
Speaker 6: let's just cut to the one where your podcast. Yeah,
Speaker 6: let's cut to the more Phil places his harmonica. Alrighty, Yeah,
Speaker 6: it's kind of it's kind of the show stopper, you know, yep,
Speaker 6: the show starter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a show. We need to show stopper. Don't
Speaker 2: stop the show with it.
Speaker 6: Now, we need to We need to get down.
Speaker 3: I got you.
Speaker 6: We need to sit down, Phil.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we do.
Speaker 4: Otherwise I gotta make some camera adjustments.
Speaker 2: And that's just his foot tambourine.
Speaker 5: Is this a foot stomper? Are we supposed to the audience.
Speaker 5: It's just one thing I've learned from musicians. They don't
Speaker 5: like because the audience gets going and they're they're not on.
Speaker 4: They started clapping h a few days ago during the
Speaker 4: the Your First, Your First song, and I was I
Speaker 4: was really worried.
Speaker 2: Then it kind of died off.
Speaker 6: You know, when you're on stage, it's so loud you
Speaker 6: can only hear yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they got a big monitors, so they're throwing you off.
Speaker 6: They probably would if they if all of them got
Speaker 6: to do in it.
Speaker 4: But most humans aren't good at keeping a tempo, especially
Speaker 4: when you got like five hundred of them all trying
Speaker 4: at the same time.
Speaker 6: This is a little bit harder because I can't I
Speaker 6: can't really hear my guitar.
Speaker 2: But it's okay. We got it.
Speaker 6: Me and Phil Man I've said it a couple of times,
Speaker 6: like I feel like Merle Haggard. I feel like I've
Speaker 6: been on the tour of my whole life. All I
Speaker 6: think about is the music.
Speaker 2: Like Phil said last night, when when you get home,
Speaker 2: the rest of the world wi I've moved on, And.
Speaker 6: Yeah you're still there at the same Yes, all right,
Speaker 6: can you quick give a little background on old slew foot?
Speaker 6: So this is just an old folk song?
Speaker 2: Does that? Does it known? Who is does it? I
Speaker 2: don't even know.
Speaker 6: I don't even know who originally wrote it. I don't know,
Speaker 6: but all the all the folk bands sing it.
Speaker 2: You know, it's your traditional song.
Speaker 6: It's a traditional song and it's about a bear hunt
Speaker 6: with dogs, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Have you listened to The Grateful Dead's album Reckoning, It's
Speaker 2: like traditional songs I have none.
Speaker 6: You might like some of those, Yeah, I bet I would.
Speaker 6: All right, you're ready, Phil, Let's do it all right.
Speaker 6: This is old slew Foot. It's a great song.
Speaker 2: You're gonna beller it right.
Speaker 6: I'm gonna do my best. It's a little bit harder sitting.
Speaker 8: Down high on the mountain top. Tell me what you see?
Speaker 6: Bear tracks, bear tracks looking back at me.
Speaker 9: You better get your ripples bus before it's too late.
Speaker 8: Bear's got a little pig and he's headed.
Speaker 10: For the Gameoh he's big around the middle, and he's
Speaker 10: brought across the front, running tiny miles an hour.
Speaker 6: We're taking thirty feet of jump.
Speaker 10: He had never been caught, He hain't never been treated.
Speaker 8: Some bull say he's a love like me.
Speaker 6: Here you go, po tambourine.
Speaker 11: I saved up my money and I bought.
Speaker 10: Me some bees, started making honey way up in the trees.
Speaker 3: I cut down that tree.
Speaker 9: But my honey is all golf old sloop.
Speaker 8: Foot done made himself at home.
Speaker 10: Oh.
Speaker 12: He's big around the middle, and he's broad across the front,
Speaker 12: running ninety miles an hour, taking thirty feet of jump.
Speaker 12: He had never been come he hain't never been treated.
Speaker 8: Some don't say he's like me Bill.
Speaker 11: Taylor on the Harmonica.
Speaker 9: That's right, last word. Winners are coming and it's twenty
Speaker 9: oh rivers rose over, So where can he go? We'll
Speaker 9: chase him up.
Speaker 11: The haller and we'll.
Speaker 9: Put him in well, shoot him in.
Speaker 11: The bottom, just to listen to himy ill.
Speaker 12: He's big around the middle, and he's broad across the front,
Speaker 12: running ninety miles an hour.
Speaker 8: Taking thirty feet of jumping. He had never been caught.
Speaker 8: He hain't never been treated.
Speaker 2: Some folks say.
Speaker 10: He's a lot like me, Bill Tyler of the Harmonica,
Speaker 10: timboury Phil.
Speaker 2: Does like Bill, just a quiet man of talent. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: thank you Phil, Oh, thank you Clay. Okay, handful things
Speaker 2: to talk about. How you wanna kick off with the
Speaker 2: with the with the brew Han Wisconsin.
Speaker 3: Oh sorry, it's like regulation season setting for a lot
Speaker 3: of different states, is it. Yeah, yeah, like we we're
Speaker 3: going through season setting processes in Montana and so one
Speaker 3: of the things that and I know we're going to
Speaker 3: talk about Washington this podcast too, right, So yeah, that's
Speaker 3: another example. But so state of Wisconsin. Uh, somebody wrote
Speaker 3: in for the Game Commission to consider a proposal that
Speaker 3: would ban side imaging sonar and like three sixty view
Speaker 3: so sonar.
Speaker 2: Which is in Chester.
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is you know, like crazy awesome technology that's
Speaker 3: becoming more and more available because the the longer it's out,
Speaker 3: the prices come down, so more folks can afford it.
Speaker 3: And it allows anglers to target individual fish, identify species,
Speaker 3: identify fish in conditions that they typically would have to
Speaker 3: you know, just blind cast or sit with a worm
Speaker 3: on the bottom and hope for the best type of thing.
Speaker 2: Inane effective. I fished it. Yeah, you fished it.
Speaker 3: And like, you know, one of my gripes with this
Speaker 3: technology is that, like we did that Ducks Unlimited Perch
Speaker 3: fishing tournament on Canyon Ferry a few years ago, which
Speaker 3: is super fun, but as the day progressed, I had
Speaker 3: like nobody to talk to because you guys were all
Speaker 3: huddled around that screen and it was like it you
Speaker 3: may as I was a lonely man out there on
Speaker 3: the ice without couldn't couldn't join in on the fun.
Speaker 3: Not enough holes and so and iron stuff to go around.
Speaker 3: And it's like this is yeah, it's just kind of
Speaker 3: taking the a big part of the fishing camarade, camaraderie
Speaker 3: out of it. And it's like another excuse to watch TV.
Speaker 3: That's one reason.
Speaker 2: It is no reason it's yeah. And I even with
Speaker 2: so I had a camera for a while for ice fishing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: kept breaking. I had a camera. You lower the wire
Speaker 2: down the hole and you can hook fish. It don't
Speaker 2: hit like I think you don't realize in your ice
Speaker 2: fishing when fisher turned off is they mouth it. They'll
Speaker 2: mouth it in a way that usually got a spring bobber.
Speaker 2: You don't register the hit. But on camera you can
Speaker 2: be like, oh it's in their mouth. You can zip fit.
Speaker 2: You can hook a fish that would not register on
Speaker 2: a spring bobber. Yeah, because you go like, oh shit.
Speaker 3: So this guy's argument is that the effectiveness of this
Speaker 3: sonar is going to increase the catch rate and more
Speaker 3: than likely the take home rate of fish. You know,
Speaker 3: probably like walleye, crappie, bluegill, is what this person is
Speaker 3: probably real concerned about. That impact is going to decrease
Speaker 3: the creole limits your take home, how many fish you
Speaker 3: can take home. Yeah, when that happens, the ripple effect
Speaker 3: is going to be fewer people buying your fishing license
Speaker 3: because they don't find it worth their while because they
Speaker 3: can't take home as many fish. So it's going to
Speaker 3: hurt the whole system because fish are too easy to
Speaker 3: catch right now with this technology, it's so easy, it's
Speaker 3: going to hurt the population. The hurt in the population
Speaker 3: is going to lead to a decrease in fishing licenses sold.
Speaker 6: Do you think that's that's true?
Speaker 2: It's extrapolated out pretty far. Listen to this.
Speaker 6: I think that guys that grew up traditional fishing that
Speaker 6: really value being able to catch a big crappy, you know,
Speaker 6: a two and a half pound crop. It's like that
Speaker 6: is like a gold bar to them. When that guy
Speaker 6: gets the technology, he loves it because he's catching this
Speaker 6: thing that's been so difficult to catch his whole life,
Speaker 6: and he just goes nuts over it.
Speaker 3: And has to that it can still be difficult even
Speaker 3: though you've identified the fish in the spot.
Speaker 6: But what happens to the to the generation down the
Speaker 6: line that grows up with this technology that catching a
Speaker 6: two and a half pound crap is just.
Speaker 2: Like, they'll do it every day. They'll get old and
Speaker 2: they'll get mad about the next technology. Yeah, and they'll
Speaker 2: they'll reminisce back when it was just the simple times
Speaker 2: of having lives.
Speaker 6: So onar Yeah, I mean you have a strong point there,
Speaker 6: but we've never dealt with this level of technology before fish. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I mean, going from to.
Speaker 2: Rifles, monofilament. Come on, what's wrong with braiding some roots?
Speaker 2: What's wrong with braiding some horse hair? Now the fish
Speaker 2: can't even see the line.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but at some point all technology isn't the same though.
Speaker 2: Right understood.
Speaker 6: And I'm gonna give a big I'm gonna give a
Speaker 6: big spiel in a second.
Speaker 2: So uh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but wait, the reward of pounding a shoreline with
Speaker 3: the spinner, which has probably caught more records than anything regardless, Uh, the.
Speaker 2: Jig has caught the most records cal not the popper.
Speaker 3: Not the popper, but but popper fishing is a great
Speaker 3: example too, Like the effort that you got to put
Speaker 3: in to get that super rewarding strike throwing big streamers
Speaker 3: all that stuff because you're doing your best to do
Speaker 3: the mental gymnastics of covering the water column, uh, doing
Speaker 3: different presentations, and then you get a fish, and that
Speaker 3: a fish is is a huge reward because you've had
Speaker 3: to figure all this stuff out, you know, that accelerated
Speaker 3: learning curve of being like, oh, don't even toucher rod. Yep,
Speaker 3: we're just gonna go until the we can see the
Speaker 3: fish on the screen. We're gonna get everything right, and
Speaker 3: then you can cast to it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because it's it's fifty six inches off starboard stern yep.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you see where the stick's pointing, like right there,
Speaker 3: ten feet.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 7: I think it would be super telling if Wisconsin were
Speaker 7: the state to do this. It'd be like if Texas
Speaker 7: outlawed cellular trail cameras or something like you're, oh, yeah,
Speaker 7: per capita, there's got to be more live scopes in
Speaker 7: Wisconsin or like at least top five.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why it's top of mind.
Speaker 5: I just whenever there's a change proposed like this, I
Speaker 5: wonder if there's the it's all based on a hypothetical,
Speaker 5: like if there is a measurable impact from this technology,
Speaker 5: then you get into what.
Speaker 3: The years years demonstrating.
Speaker 5: And I understand that you don't want to let these
Speaker 5: things get out of control, right or have a population
Speaker 5: level impact. But there's a lot of ifs and thens and.
Speaker 3: The and we talk about science based management, right, It's
Speaker 3: like you get to this frustrating thing with biologists who
Speaker 3: are like, well, show me the science.
Speaker 2: Oh there's no science yet, right, And.
Speaker 3: There's no science yet, so you can't be proactive.
Speaker 2: You can't go look, here's a chart. Here's increase in
Speaker 2: usage of live sonar. Here's depletion of resource. Yeah, no,
Speaker 2: it's it's you're you're enforcing.
Speaker 3: Here's the creole surveys. Here's the time on the water surveys.
Speaker 2: Here's the Yeah, that's why anytime the whole follow the
Speaker 2: science thing and trust the science, follow the science, people
Speaker 2: use that opportunistically when it benefits what they're saying. This
Speaker 2: is not. This is about managing, managing, enforcing, trying to
Speaker 2: find some kind of definition of like fair chase, fair play,
Speaker 2: fair share.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: Right, here's the spiel. Though, kind of given my spiel
Speaker 2: on this.
Speaker 3: I think you should throw it in also, like, you know,
Speaker 3: because I think this ties in with what Clay was
Speaker 3: kind of getting at and how you've talked about like
Speaker 3: raising your kids right, like getting them to play out
Speaker 3: in the rain so they're not like, oh it's raining,
Speaker 3: we can't go do anything like I think there's doing
Speaker 3: things the hard way can benefit our system.
Speaker 2: But well, yeah, I never finished my point earlier about
Speaker 2: that camera. When that camera broke. I'm not kidding. When
Speaker 2: that camera broke. My boy, my older boy, he didn't
Speaker 2: want to go ice fishing because the camera's broke. I'm
Speaker 2: not kidding you. Yeah, yeah, because it was why would you, you.
Speaker 6: Know, did you want to go ice fishing? Oh yeah,
Speaker 6: It's like who cares? He's like, wow, we don't have
Speaker 6: the camera though.
Speaker 3: Well, Jay Siemens and Mandy when we were fishing with them,
Speaker 3: I tried to sit next to Mandy without She had
Speaker 3: a screen going in her hole and there was just
Speaker 3: an open hole next to her and I sat there
Speaker 3: and was just jigging off the bottom. Imagine that, no
Speaker 3: flash or no nothing, and she could not stand it.
Speaker 3: She was like, no, no, no, what are you doing.
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm fishing. She's like, no, you're not. And
Speaker 3: she had to go get at least a flasher.
Speaker 2: Put something in front of you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then we're talking with Jay. I was like, okay,
Speaker 3: this side imaging live scope deal. If you forgot it,
Speaker 3: how far away? Like if you were heading to a
Speaker 3: tournament someplace or just going to fish, what would be
Speaker 3: your point of going, Oh my god, I forgot the
Speaker 3: live scope. I got to turn around and go back.
Speaker 3: He said, more to five hours if he was, if
Speaker 3: he was within four or five hours of home, he
Speaker 3: would turn around and go back and get.
Speaker 6: The thing, because yeahs feels good. Success is a drug, dude.
Speaker 6: The other night, I did. I'm kind of nervous about it.
Speaker 2: I did. I did an interview with a I did
Speaker 2: an interview with a journalist who normally covers She covers
Speaker 2: like an Olympics sports scheme.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's appropriate. So far a lot of athletes in
Speaker 3: this room.
Speaker 2: So And the interview was set up around the publication
Speaker 2: of our new cookbooks. I thought we're gonna talk about that.
Speaker 2: But she comes in and we sit down and she
Speaker 2: wants she has like six the six most controversial things
Speaker 2: in hunting, Like I'm not telling you, Like she wanted
Speaker 2: to talk about, uh, regulatory structures around hunting mountain lions.
Speaker 2: What do I think like public lands, divestiture, uh, hounds
Speaker 2: for bears okay, mm hmm. I was like, yeah, surprising.
Speaker 2: I don't know what she's gonna do it, Like, I
Speaker 2: was just like, she caught me in the chatty mood.
Speaker 2: Did she ask you about the cookbook? No, not a
Speaker 2: single time. Caught me in the chatty mood too. So
Speaker 2: now I'm nervous about what all I said. But I
Speaker 2: want to explain thing to her. And I've talked about
Speaker 2: before here. But it's like I was avoiding conversations about
Speaker 2: specific state by state issues, okay, And I was saying, like,
Speaker 2: here's the here's my general perspective. My general perspective is
Speaker 2: that I tend to look favorably upon traditional use practices
Speaker 2: where it's been demonstrated that that traditional use practice is
Speaker 2: compatible with sustainable wildlife management. Okay, meaning of a state
Speaker 2: has always had hound hunting for bears, and that practice
Speaker 2: hound hunting for bears has proven to be compatible with
Speaker 2: responsible management of black bears as a renewable resource.
Speaker 3: Meaning a stable or growing population.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've always hound hundred bears, you have good
Speaker 2: bear numbers on the on the landscape, they're not in decline.
Speaker 2: I would say that that that traditional use practic this
Speaker 2: is warranted. Now the States never had hound hunting for
Speaker 2: bears and they go to institute hound hunting for bears,
Speaker 2: And I wouldn't look at it like a defending a
Speaker 2: traditional use practice where let's say for the last one
Speaker 2: hundred years you haven't been able to You're introducing a
Speaker 2: new thing into the mix which requires special consideration. And
Speaker 2: I was trying to explain to her as well, like
Speaker 2: where this becomes relevant is we always have been and
Speaker 2: always will be faced with new practices, and we need
Speaker 2: to assess what we're gonna do about new practices. Enter
Speaker 2: like the drone. Okay, years ago, like when drones became
Speaker 2: just a whisper, a whisper, I remember it was like
Speaker 2: in one year, thirteen Western states and one year came
Speaker 2: out and just washed their hands of it. They immediately like,
Speaker 2: I don't know where this is going. I'm not gonna
Speaker 2: let it go anywhere. Yes, drones and hunting are out.
Speaker 3: Well, I think bha RF, a bunch of conservation groups
Speaker 3: immediately came out with policy statements like restricting technology yep,
Speaker 3: but they were addressing drones specifically.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and it was quick. Yeah, it was quick. Would drones.
Speaker 6: Could you make a comparison between using drones and livescoping
Speaker 6: for fishing.
Speaker 2: Well, I could tell you this, Like there was a
Speaker 2: rumor like here, I could tell you one place that
Speaker 2: drones would be like incredibly effective. And there was a
Speaker 2: rumor of being used this way hunting moose. Putting up
Speaker 2: a drone in a willow flat.
Speaker 6: Yeah, giant black blob that's six feet tall and a
Speaker 6: bunch of willows that are eight feet tall, and it's like,
Speaker 6: oh there, he is right, And there was a rumor
Speaker 6: of that being a coming a thing immediately.
Speaker 2: Okay. So here you took an emerging technology that you
Speaker 2: knew was going to be impactful on the resource, and
Speaker 2: before it even had a user group, there was no
Speaker 2: one to even bitch. There was no one to bitch
Speaker 2: because no one was you know what I mean, if
Speaker 2: you went if you had just held off and tried
Speaker 2: it now, you'd already have resistance. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So like and look at what is happening right now,
Speaker 3: because I mean that's a great like the in other
Speaker 3: aspects game retrieval, some of like the big evil drone
Speaker 3: technology things.
Speaker 2: Have are true, ye day not true.
Speaker 3: Oh, they're using, so like using thermal imaging to detect
Speaker 3: game for hunting purposes.
Speaker 2: The other day I was in the room. I was
Speaker 2: in the room in Mississippi and there was a conversation.
Speaker 2: There was a guy that got the thermal drone thing
Speaker 2: for recovery, and his buddies were saying, Now, what he
Speaker 2: does is he flies to find where bucks that he
Speaker 2: knows about are bedded so he can set up on
Speaker 2: the exit trail that he knows that he wants to
Speaker 2: set up on because he knows that bucks bed in
Speaker 2: these certain areas and he knows where they been and
Speaker 2: where they're gonna leave. So he finds the buck and
Speaker 2: then makes his stand selection based on where he knows
Speaker 2: the buck is bedded. Right, which does how is that
Speaker 2: not illegal? Because every state didn't ban drones and hunting?
Speaker 2: M right, Yeah, And.
Speaker 3: It's drones and scouting. Is it drones in hunting? Right? Well,
Speaker 3: it's like all the things.
Speaker 5: It also raised the question like if you're using the
Speaker 5: thermal for the thermal drone for recovery, if you don't,
Speaker 5: if you find that you didn't hit that deer and
Speaker 5: then all of a sudden you see another deer, do
Speaker 5: you just have to cover your eyes and walk out
Speaker 5: of the woods. That's why certain states and there's a
Speaker 5: real fuzzy gray area there, but some states and it's
Speaker 5: not the softy states. That's the thing with drones, is
Speaker 5: it was like not not like that, not animal rights states.
Speaker 5: You know, it's like Montana, Alaska, like not animal rights
Speaker 5: states that got out ahead of drones.
Speaker 2: And it's not animal right states. They're getting out ahead
Speaker 2: of thermal Arizona, Utah, Arizona recently trail cams on public land.
Speaker 2: That's not coming from antis.
Speaker 3: Nope, nope, not at all.
Speaker 7: This is forty five states have laws restricting the use
Speaker 7: of drones for hunting. The only states that don't have
Speaker 7: specific laws banning drone recovery or Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware, Oklahoma,
Speaker 7: and South Carolina.
Speaker 3: So I think it does paint the picture. Though, to
Speaker 3: go back to the side imaging thing and the fear
Speaker 3: is the technology is going to affect a population or
Speaker 3: spike a harvest rate in such a way that it's
Speaker 3: going to impact the length of a season or means
Speaker 3: of take or one of these things that we hold
Speaker 3: in higher regard than being able to use the technology.
Speaker 3: Does that make sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like the conversation isn't just about live scope.
Speaker 2: It's like, do we we're in like an unprecedented a
Speaker 2: period of like unprecedented technological advancement? Right? You go back
Speaker 2: to the forties and it'd be like the you know,
Speaker 2: atomic and nuclear like just changed everything. The Internet age
Speaker 2: changed everything, like unprecedented technological advancement. Who knows what's coming.
Speaker 2: There's guys that are messing with it. This is not
Speaker 2: related to fishies. There's people that are messing with this
Speaker 2: that you'd be able to take a scoop of water
Speaker 2: out of a river and measure marine isotopes in the
Speaker 2: water and tabulate that to how many salmon ran up
Speaker 2: that river?
Speaker 3: Amazing?
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's like there's crazy stuff is on the horizon. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So never mind live scope, But how are we going
Speaker 2: to respond to unforeseen technologies in the future that are
Speaker 2: going to completely rewrite hunting and fish and how are
Speaker 2: we going to preserve traditional use? You could take two ways.
Speaker 2: I feel like you either be.
Speaker 6: Like I'm gonna I'm gonna preserve traditional use, or you're
Speaker 6: gonna be like I'm gonna preserve technological advancement.
Speaker 2: You can't like you have to be in one of
Speaker 2: those camps. There's not gonna be room to not pick
Speaker 2: one of those camps.
Speaker 3: And the I think you had that example of a
Speaker 3: laser range finder the other day, and it's pretty perfect.
Speaker 3: It'd be harder, it'd be hard to come up with
Speaker 3: something as a better example because it was like this
Speaker 3: thing the military had. So I would say technological advancement
Speaker 3: and availability right have to be tied together. So the
Speaker 3: longer the technology is on the market, the more available
Speaker 3: it becomes because it gets more prolific and more available
Speaker 3: because of a lower and lower price points.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it could have been I don't know how many
Speaker 2: years ago it would have been like and I'm going
Speaker 2: to clarify, I use cellular cameras, I use a laser rangefinder, Okay,
Speaker 2: I use I have. I just shot two turkeys of
Speaker 2: spring with the red dot scope. Okay, I use technology.
Speaker 2: So I'm not talking about I'm not coming from a
Speaker 2: purist perspective. There's probably things that if it wasn't illegal,
Speaker 2: maybe I would use it. I don't know, but picture
Speaker 2: that whatever it was twenty years ago with laser range finders,
Speaker 2: I don't even remember. Picture that someone had said the
Speaker 2: minute the technology emerged and was finding military application or
Speaker 2: whoever the hell started it out picture the game agencies
Speaker 2: and said this is going to really revolutionize shooting. It's
Speaker 2: going to change take. Uh, let's get away with it.
Speaker 2: And you would just imagine this alternate reality where there
Speaker 2: had been no one to resist it. Because if you
Speaker 2: went in now and said, oh, you know, we're gonna back,
Speaker 2: We're going to back, We're going to do a time
Speaker 2: machine and back it up and no laser range finders. Dude,
Speaker 2: right like our cade civil there be a civil war,
Speaker 2: is it not? Is it not?
Speaker 6: Like if you looked at the at the arc of
Speaker 6: technology and hunting even in this country, I mean, maybe
Speaker 6: we're this is like much ado about nothing, because there's
Speaker 6: always increase of technology, always, and there's always a reduction,
Speaker 6: a self imposed reduction on the amount of take. I mean,
Speaker 6: because there was a time when you know, they were
Speaker 6: using addleaddles, and I mean they could kill all they
Speaker 6: wanted with an addle addle. Then we had bows and arrows,
Speaker 6: and then we had muskets, and then we had repeating rifles,
Speaker 6: and it got to the point where you know, they
Speaker 6: were they killed them all. You know, the extirpation, and
Speaker 6: then now the technology is so efficient that is it
Speaker 6: not just going to a place where where season dates
Speaker 6: are shorter? Sure, I mean, it's just it's just like, Okay,
Speaker 6: if you want to play this game, we're going to
Speaker 6: have to do it. Well, I mean, that's what you're saying.
Speaker 6: But is that not just like what happens?
Speaker 2: The answer to what happened when I was saying of
Speaker 2: this journal sounds kind of like the second part of
Speaker 2: what I explained is, let's just say you have a unit.
Speaker 2: Let's say there's there's an area of space, an area
Speaker 2: a landscape area, and it has and you determine that
Speaker 2: there's one hundred deer that live in this area of space,
Speaker 2: and you determine that there's a harvestable surplus of ten annually. Okay,
Speaker 2: and you know that it's about a ten percent success rate.
Speaker 2: Hunters of hunt that landscape have a ten percent success rate.
Speaker 2: That creates opportunity. Okay, that creates opportunity for one hundred people.
Speaker 2: Might do my math right, YEA hunter that creates opportunity
Speaker 2: for one hundred people to pursue the resource, there's one
Speaker 2: in ten chance they'll be successful. One hundred people take
Speaker 2: a crack at it. Now you introduce a bunch of
Speaker 2: tools where all of a sudden, now there's a fifty
Speaker 2: percent success rate. Okay, what does that do to the opportunity.
Speaker 2: Opportunity plummets. Yeah, you can only now I got twenty guys,
Speaker 2: We're gonna have twenty guys hunt because half of them
Speaker 2: are gonna bag out. Yeah, and that and like really
Speaker 2: abbreviated form like that is one of the things you're
Speaker 2: battling against. Like there's something more nostalgic too that you're
Speaker 2: fighting against. Is you're fighting against like there is among
Speaker 2: the sporting community. There's a reverence for woodsmanship, right and
Speaker 2: learned like learned skill that time spent pays off that
Speaker 2: learning about the resource, you know.
Speaker 3: Learning about I mean, this is a weird thing to
Speaker 3: say used to be because there's still nothing that can
Speaker 3: replace like ground truthing something meaning walking it. But the
Speaker 3: people who are really good at e scouting, looking at
Speaker 3: satellite imagery, knowing the variety of maps and applications that
Speaker 3: are available online Google Earth, cross referencing all of it
Speaker 3: to get a better mental image and plan, and then
Speaker 3: using software like on x, they can do so much
Speaker 3: more that used to be only available to people who
Speaker 3: have been like I have spent a decade in this drainage,
Speaker 3: and I know the spot that you have to hike
Speaker 3: to in order to actually be able to see this stuff, right,
Speaker 3: like all that barren stuff. Actually, when you get up there,
Speaker 3: the tree line's so high that you can't actually see.
Speaker 3: So you have to be over here in this screen patch.
Speaker 3: And I know that because I actually walked up there
Speaker 3: and did it. Yep, right, it was like that stuff's
Speaker 3: to a large degree has gone away if you are
Speaker 3: effective at using all the tools that you're.
Speaker 2: To a large extent, Yes, but you still like you
Speaker 2: still need to ground check. You know, there's But you're right.
Speaker 6: So at what point do we fought the technology? I mean,
Speaker 6: that's the question that you're trying to answer.
Speaker 2: Man, I'll tell you I don't.
Speaker 5: When it becomes self aware, that comes after us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like early, Yeah, early is the simple answer.
Speaker 2: You got to make managers in the public. You gotta
Speaker 2: why was it so clear with drones? I don't know
Speaker 2: why were drones so clear?
Speaker 5: And it's funny because like something like a laser rangefinder
Speaker 5: or GPS, like a laser range finder makes people more
Speaker 5: effective and maybe encourages I don't know if it encourages
Speaker 5: the right word, but has led people to shoot longer
Speaker 5: and longer distances and become have greater efficacy. But it's
Speaker 5: also made people more effective within traditional ranges, right, And
Speaker 5: so it has like an obvious benefit to the resource
Speaker 5: in that sense, and that there's less perhaps what less
Speaker 5: wounding loss and GPS like it, and it enables people
Speaker 5: to go further and further into the back country and
Speaker 5: have the impact on the resource over a wider area.
Speaker 5: But it also has like an obvious safety use. And
Speaker 5: I don't know what the redeeming quality of the drone is,
Speaker 5: you know, like there's those other ones sort of have
Speaker 5: you can make an argument for them in terms of
Speaker 5: like the the benefit to the hunter outside of simply
Speaker 5: killing more stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people like with laser range finders, people like the
Speaker 2: folk people like the focus on people making shots they
Speaker 2: shouldn't take, right, But you also can prevent you from
Speaker 2: making shots you shouldn't take because it puts a number
Speaker 2: to it, Yeah, to the gut check.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not like, oh, it's probably three hundred yards yep,
Speaker 5: you know, and then you're.
Speaker 6: You know, with a drone, you could you could make
Speaker 6: an argument that would help you with selection, you know,
Speaker 6: like like if you were hyper managing a place, like
Speaker 6: we're only taking this type of animal. I mean, I'm
Speaker 6: not like you said, those drones help me to pick
Speaker 6: the animal for conservation that needs to be taken out.
Speaker 3: So what would hunting be though? Okay, like we ran
Speaker 3: things to the extreme because that's where we what we
Speaker 3: do with these conversations, right, So we we we're in
Speaker 3: agreement that increased technology can lead to increased harvest, which
Speaker 3: leads to shortened seasons. So what happens if two hunting
Speaker 3: in general? If yeah, you can use everything at your disposal,
Speaker 3: you name it, technology wise, weapon wise, whatever. Uh, but
Speaker 3: the season for that is one.
Speaker 2: Day, right, Yeah?
Speaker 6: I mean it changes the whole game, right, It changes
Speaker 6: the lifestyle.
Speaker 3: Changes I think, Yeah, I.
Speaker 6: Mean it really does, because there's no Yeah, it changes everything.
Speaker 6: But would they be and I mean this goes back
Speaker 6: to Steve's point, like, is that not what Daniel Boone
Speaker 6: and these long hunters would say about us? Would they
Speaker 6: be like you guys, oh of course, and and but
Speaker 6: then we're sitting here and we're like, man, we're we're really,
Speaker 6: we're woodsman. We we've experienced the wild. We're doing it
Speaker 6: the right.
Speaker 2: It's like it's hate, you know, I hate when people
Speaker 2: say it it's all relative. Yeah, and it's there's a change.
Speaker 2: It's just like do you do spikes? Because if we're
Speaker 2: gonna go back, historically we would say, Okay, the vehicle,
Speaker 2: I mean the vehicles huge impact on hunting. Yeah, as
Speaker 2: Randall pointed out, and way long ago podcasts, the advent
Speaker 2: of the freezer that used to not used to not
Speaker 2: have a freezer. Freezer's changed how people hunting fish.
Speaker 5: The other the other one that I just thinking back
Speaker 5: on some of the research that I did. I remember
Speaker 5: looking at a field and stream from like the seventies
Speaker 5: and there was an article sort of touting this new
Speaker 5: product which is a poison arrow Mississippi. Yeah and so and.
Speaker 3: So it was like pods yeah, and.
Speaker 5: So it was just like uh and and this article
Speaker 5: talked about how some fish and game agencies were getting
Speaker 5: ahead of it and banning poison arrow. But the advocates
Speaker 5: are saying, well this this means if you just hit
Speaker 5: an animal, it's gonna die, and you won't wound a
Speaker 5: deer and have it run off, So why wouldn't you poison?
Speaker 2: I was with these guys in Mississippi and they use
Speaker 2: them with their kids. They say, if that kid gets
Speaker 2: a piece of that deer anywhere, that deer is dead
Speaker 2: or a door naill, ye I wonder anywhere.
Speaker 5: But it's like something that's so foreign to most people today.
Speaker 5: But in that article, it was sort of like, what
Speaker 5: do we do with this technology?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 5: And it's it is context.
Speaker 2: And there's a traditional use practice because they used to
Speaker 2: use Strict nine. Even fur hunters used to use Strict nine.
Speaker 2: So what does it It was a technology being able
Speaker 2: to develop and deliver poison wasn't emerging technology. It became
Speaker 2: a traditional use practice. And now everyone in the room
Speaker 2: would agree you shouldn't be able to poison for bearing
Speaker 2: animals for the fur market. Everyone agrees. Well, Texas and
Speaker 2: Oklahoma have both now certified a hog poison, A wild
Speaker 2: hog poison, yeah, made by.
Speaker 3: Caput Caput Industries.
Speaker 6: It's Tennessee bear houndsman one time, and they take a
Speaker 6: lot of criticism for running bears with hounds and all this,
Speaker 6: and he said, he said, he said, yeah, I used
Speaker 6: hounds to hunt bears here. And he was talking about
Speaker 6: criticism from inside the hunting community. But he's like, you'll
Speaker 6: get in your truck and drive twenty five hundred miles
Speaker 6: in a pickup truck to go hunt an elk with
Speaker 6: a bow or you know, with a rifle.
Speaker 2: And he's like, really good point. It was like, Okay, so.
Speaker 6: You're mad at me for using this ancient practice.
Speaker 2: Why don't you point out the guy that flies across
Speaker 2: the country to hunt for the weekend. Yeah, talk about technology. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I do want to an emails with his buddy about
Speaker 2: what weekend he should go.
Speaker 6: Yeah, if I should use carrier pigeons for all hunting correspondence,
Speaker 6: that's what me and Randall do.
Speaker 3: Oh frequently, could like magically transport Daniel Boone here for like,
Speaker 3: do you think he'd even give a crap about like
Speaker 3: the hunting side of things or you think he'd just
Speaker 3: be like, so you're telling me, you guys are all
Speaker 3: sitting here. You've never survived a typhus outbreak, never survived
Speaker 3: yellow fever.
Speaker 2: But you guys doing the Willman night.
Speaker 5: He'd be horrified by the witchcraft we have wrapped around
Speaker 5: our heads right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just or would he care or he'd be
Speaker 2: right in the middle of it. But I want to
Speaker 2: move on to another subject.
Speaker 6: But this is another subject we've discussed on the podcast.
Speaker 2: But I don't okay, we don't need to move on. Sorry,
Speaker 2: But it's like it's when looking at this kind of
Speaker 2: stuff you can get you can wind up throwing your
Speaker 2: hands in the air. You'd be like, well, what about
Speaker 2: Daniel Boone and they used to use black powder? Now
Speaker 2: we've got airplanes, and throw your hands in the air
Speaker 2: and just say whatever, okay, whatever, it's all changed anyway,
Speaker 2: or you can say, yes, I recognize that we've come
Speaker 2: a long long way in a couple hundred years, and
Speaker 2: we've had all these emerging technologies that have all rewritten
Speaker 2: stuff and we've had to adapt along the way. I
Speaker 2: get all that. I get all that that when you
Speaker 2: look at it in a fine with like under a
Speaker 2: fine you know, like a certain lens, you look at
Speaker 2: it all, it all seems ridiculous after all of this.
Speaker 2: Who cares about that? Right? Well? I care about that, like, like,
Speaker 2: I get it. But we're still here in the present day,
Speaker 2: and we still have a changing landscape and we still
Speaker 2: have to make decisions. And I don't think that looking
Speaker 2: at all the things that we didn't do and all
Speaker 2: the inevitability. There still are some things like drones, like
Speaker 2: poison and I'm in no way bucketing live scope. I
Speaker 2: don't really have a formed opinion about this yet. I'm
Speaker 2: just saying we will have to deal with this and
Speaker 2: a lifetime worth of other things, some things that just
Speaker 2: might seem from sitting here today, it might seem fantastical.
Speaker 2: It might come up and it be that it takes
Speaker 2: a lifetime to learn a lake, okay, and now you
Speaker 2: can learn well side view and all that. Maybe it doesn't.
Speaker 2: Maybe in an afternoon you can grid a lake and
Speaker 2: be like, I'll tell you how many fish are there,
Speaker 2: I'll tell you where they're at. Right? Is that.
Speaker 3: About this?
Speaker 6: What if think about like what the Boone and Crockett
Speaker 6: Club did in eighteen eighty seven when they kind of
Speaker 6: reformulated the way that our culture looked at and managed wildlife,
Speaker 6: you know, the simple version being going from market hunting
Speaker 6: to the sport hunting, Which, like, what if there's a
Speaker 6: time some decades from now when there requires that kind
Speaker 6: of paradigm shift.
Speaker 2: Sure, did you see what I'm saying?
Speaker 6: Like this paradigm shift that was and yeah, yeah, like
Speaker 6: there's there was a paradigm shift that had to take place,
Speaker 6: honestly because of technology and markets and increase of people
Speaker 6: and all this stuff. Like it's hard to foresee what
Speaker 6: that would be, but what if the take and there
Speaker 6: was so much pressure on the resource and there was
Speaker 6: this group of people that were like, hey, you know,
Speaker 6: like what that shift would be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny because this is the thing I like
Speaker 2: to point out to people how celebrated Teddy Roosevelt is today. Okay,
Speaker 2: the carvers facing Rushmore, Right, any politician would appreciate a
Speaker 2: favorable comparison to Teddy Roosevelt. There's no politician that would
Speaker 2: turn down. I take that back now, because there's certain
Speaker 2: most Okay, most politicians would welcome a favorable comparison to
Speaker 2: the conservation record of Theodore Roosevelt. But let's take a
Speaker 2: look at the time. Here's a guy saying he proposed
Speaker 2: this whole paradigm shift. He's like, you know what, let's
Speaker 2: not use wildlife for making money. Let's use wildlife as
Speaker 2: a recreational resource. Not only that, let's take huge chunks
Speaker 2: of the landscape and set it aside from industrial development.
Speaker 2: An industrial exploitation and take it off the record. He
Speaker 2: would have been he would have been a tree hugging libtard, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: he would have sat somewhere below Gavin Newsome to propose
Speaker 2: that stuff today.
Speaker 5: He's locking it all.
Speaker 2: They would have crucified him today. But now there's a
Speaker 2: conservation seconds.
Speaker 6: And when we talk about the guy that wanted to
Speaker 6: end market hunting and close off.
Speaker 2: All the land, that's a good point.
Speaker 3: Would we talk about And that's why this is not
Speaker 3: simple in any way. But when we talk about regulating
Speaker 3: a technology for wildlife, we're also talking about regulating an industry.
Speaker 6: Right, yeah, right, And because you know the live scope
Speaker 6: sonar boys aren't like a live scope band.
Speaker 3: Right, or just bikes.
Speaker 5: The archery industry is like no more boats, guys, the
Speaker 5: twenty twenty five line of bows?
Speaker 2: Is it? Well? This journalists want to talk about e
Speaker 2: bikes too?
Speaker 3: Oh really awesome? Let off for compound bows. He can't
Speaker 3: be over a percentage, you got. You know, there's all
Speaker 3: sorts of things that regulating technology would regulate industry, which
Speaker 3: is you know, not something that we really want to
Speaker 3: do in America in general.
Speaker 2: Right, here's one for you. How did it come to be.
Speaker 2: Maybe one of you guys knows. The answer is, how
Speaker 2: did it come to be that you can't use a laser,
Speaker 2: you can't use something to project light?
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I don't know that. Why did no one
Speaker 6: get there? Why did no one get worked up about that?
Speaker 3: I don't know. Boy, you talk to pilots, they're sure
Speaker 3: serious about because people with lasers, Like.
Speaker 5: People saw it in the movies when the red dot
Speaker 5: appears and they're like, that.
Speaker 2: Looks pretty pretty easy. Yeah, no one raised a fuss
Speaker 2: when state said you can't use anything to project the light.
Speaker 7: And this is the technology discussion happens with like every
Speaker 7: hobby that you could think of. Really yeah, like right now,
Speaker 7: in golfing, they recently determined last golf balls have gotten
Speaker 7: too good and they're doing a rollback. By twenty twenty eight,
Speaker 7: professional golfers have to use like a more archaic golf
Speaker 7: ball than by twenty thirty. If you're a recreational golfer,
Speaker 7: you need to start using a more archaic golf.
Speaker 3: That makes sense because otherwise they have to redo golf courses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they appreciate listen, but it's every hobby, think about
Speaker 2: it the whole But that thing the whole structures make believe.
Speaker 7: Well, there's like there's like all believe and you know
Speaker 7: this is like real, like that this is so our wildlife.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate the effort.
Speaker 8: It's it's like maybe country.
Speaker 3: Is huge laser range finder.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Marschnelle like created that about to make songs or
Speaker 7: or country music artist Clay Nukom. Maybe he doesn't like
Speaker 7: auto tune, he says, no more auto tune, got to
Speaker 7: tune it by ear.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like that little sports to a bit. There.
Speaker 2: Here's a lot that's funny. Here's what it's funny. We
Speaker 2: had a podcast guest online.
Speaker 3: All right, if you're in Wisconsin, know that this is
Speaker 3: something that's coming up and it's just attention to.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, so if you want to go back and
Speaker 2: time and not listen to that whole thing, there's your
Speaker 2: wrap up. That's up Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: They're coming for your Walleye acquisition tools.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 2: Here's a funny one. And I'm surprised that this guy
Speaker 2: liked it. So in the past we had on Bob Reid,
Speaker 2: who's a Python expert. Bob Reid, I later learned. I
Speaker 2: don't know if you know the story, doctor Bob the
Speaker 2: real doctor. He's a real doctor, nice doctor, Bob Reid.
Speaker 2: He's he's like a herpetologist or something. Right, Yeah, he
Speaker 2: works on he's with the USGS.
Speaker 3: He's working on birds now though.
Speaker 2: Oh at the time he was put on that he
Speaker 2: was doing a bunch of work around pythons in Florida.
Speaker 2: We hunted with a guy in Florida. And the guy
Speaker 2: in Florida's talking about his hunting mentor just hates me
Speaker 2: because I didn't push back on Bob Reid when Bob
Speaker 2: Reid explained to all this python catching, Python rodeos, python catchable,
Speaker 2: python has zero impact that there's like when you look
Speaker 2: at the numbers like python. Go back and listen to
Speaker 2: the podcast.
Speaker 5: So the guy who hates you is mad that you
Speaker 5: didn't make that point or diet.
Speaker 2: Apparently he's maybe a Python catcher. I don't know if
Speaker 2: it's funny that he was so mad that I didn't
Speaker 2: push back on the guy who models Python populations.
Speaker 5: He didn't like to suggest that he wasn't making.
Speaker 2: A difference for pointing out that mechanically removing pythons has
Speaker 2: and and go back and listen to the episode. Not
Speaker 2: my you know, follow the science like not my science.
Speaker 2: Bob Reid, a guy that models Burmese python populations in Florida,
Speaker 2: pointing out that that is all just whistling Dixie has
Speaker 2: no implications. Driving up on those levees picking up snakes
Speaker 2: doesn't mean anything, just like anyone would admit shooting carp
Speaker 2: don't matter. Shooting carp don't matter anyhow. That guy, Bob Reid,
Speaker 2: who gave me sitting in my office is a one
Speaker 2: court jar of genuine snake oil. He gave me a
Speaker 2: jar of genuine snake oil rendered off of Burmese python.
Speaker 2: I'm surprised, Bob, that this article tickled you the way
Speaker 2: that it did.
Speaker 6: Have you used that oil for anything, yet no saving
Speaker 6: it for toothaches, bad fowls, rheumatism, stuff like that. When
Speaker 6: I was in Guyana, it was frowned upon to kill
Speaker 6: a it's frowned upon to kill an anaconda.
Speaker 2: But they said that two things they told me that
Speaker 2: was interesting. Old people can kill them to get the
Speaker 2: fat for arthritis. And he said that touching an anaconda
Speaker 2: with a bow is lethal to the anaconda, but it's
Speaker 2: a painful death and it takes a long time. But
Speaker 2: touching it with a different kind of stick will not
Speaker 2: kill it. But if you were to touch it with
Speaker 2: the limb of a bow, it will die later.
Speaker 7: Do you think you're gonna die with that quart of
Speaker 7: snake oil? Still? They're not unused, Like it's gonna kill me?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 2: No, Like are you going.
Speaker 5: To be able to pull the trigger?
Speaker 2: Well? I think about putting it in the auction House
Speaker 2: of Oddities, and I think about, I don't know, I
Speaker 2: haven't said what I'm gonna do it yet, probably gonna
Speaker 2: at some point it's gonna go bad on me. You
Speaker 2: just need to leave it in a jar.
Speaker 6: You can split it in two, you know, have like
Speaker 6: two small jars and put it in the windows like decoration.
Speaker 6: It'll last the rest of your life.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: Clay pointed out earlier that yeah, you should be rubbing
Speaker 3: that stuff in your hair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, faking it up.
Speaker 6: I mean cures balding obviously.
Speaker 2: Well look at yeah I believe that was your head. Yeah,
Speaker 2: my goodness, Okay, Bob Reid, like this this is like, listen,
Speaker 2: God bless these researchers just seems so silly. So some
Speaker 2: researchers did a thing where they in California they put GPS. Okay,
Speaker 2: our friend, this is Carean writing our friend Bobber. He'd
Speaker 2: sent this to us. It's very interesting, he says, I've
Speaker 2: never seen habitat selection methods applied to people, but it's
Speaker 2: a cool concept. Kind of a bummer that road hunters
Speaker 2: appear to have higher success rates. So these people did
Speaker 2: a study as though they needed to figure this out,
Speaker 2: like you know how you look at you put radio
Speaker 2: collars on links, like for instance, we've had a researcher
Speaker 2: on the podcast and they're wondering, how do links use
Speaker 2: burned over territory, meaning when you when there's a big
Speaker 2: giant forest fire in the Northern Cascades and you knuke
Speaker 2: the place creators leave. Uh, let's take so that's narrowing
Speaker 2: it look like, okay, take let's take links. At what
Speaker 2: point in succession does a link say I'm going to
Speaker 2: move back in. It's now gotten to a point where
Speaker 2: I like it again, right, And they find that that
Speaker 2: as it grows, it gets to a point where they
Speaker 2: weave in and out and they start utilizing it, but
Speaker 2: they don't want to stand it. And then it gets
Speaker 2: to a point where they're like, I'm moving back in
Speaker 2: and they move back in Okay, So that's like habitat us.
Speaker 2: It's super interesting research, especially in the era of megafiers. Right,
Speaker 2: so how will megafiers like what does it do for wildlife?
Speaker 2: And we all everyone watches that you place will burn
Speaker 2: and we'll say, man, that's gonna be sweet. DRNL hunting
Speaker 2: insert time period, right, and then it usually gets to
Speaker 2: a point where it sucks. It gets like it's it's
Speaker 2: it's nuked, it gets really good, it gets no good,
Speaker 2: and then eventually returns just being normal. You know. Well,
Speaker 2: they're looking at how to hunters use habitat and I
Speaker 2: just don't think they needed to go through all the
Speaker 2: hass So they did to do it, but they put
Speaker 2: GPS monitors on hunters. They found the hunters hunt. They
Speaker 2: found that hunters hunt three ways. Where is this They
Speaker 2: hunt one second, coursing, stalking, sit and wait. They determined
Speaker 2: that hunters course around, they still hunt, hunters will stalk stuff,
Speaker 2: and hunters will sit and watch. Now and here's the
Speaker 2: breaking news. It kind of depends where you're at.
Speaker 7: I've never heard of it referred to as coursing.
Speaker 5: I think it's a biological concept. When they study like
Speaker 5: how predators find prey.
Speaker 6: What does that mean? You're just wandering around.
Speaker 5: Coursely moving hoping to come across something.
Speaker 6: What I want to know is is is there some
Speaker 6: selection bias for the hunter that would volunteer to do this? Well, yeah, maybe,
Speaker 6: or think about like.
Speaker 5: I better keep moving and realize I'm lazy.
Speaker 2: He's like circles.
Speaker 6: No, the best hunters, you know, are they going to
Speaker 6: put a GPS in their bag.
Speaker 2: Without incentive?
Speaker 3: We all do well phone yeah, like you know, no,
Speaker 3: but yeah.
Speaker 6: Maybe some good hunters would be like, yeah, I'll be
Speaker 6: a part of your study.
Speaker 2: I'm not down on GPS on hunters for starties because,
Speaker 2: like you talk about Mike Chamberlain's work now here, you
Speaker 2: got turkeys with tracking devices, and then you put a
Speaker 2: hunter on the turkey with a tracking device, and in
Speaker 2: some instances you tell the hunter where that bird is,
Speaker 2: so he's like, he's roosted here. I'll give you that.
Speaker 2: And then they watch what happens, and they found birds
Speaker 2: that can't be killed. They just navigated. They found anyone
Speaker 2: wants to hear, Like, go way back to Mike Chamberlain
Speaker 2: being on the podcast. They had a bird that couldn't
Speaker 2: get killed, and eventually a guy killed. It is a
Speaker 2: guy got a fight with his wife and gets all
Speaker 2: pissed off. It drives down to the state game area,
Speaker 2: just drives right past the sign, walks over a little hill,
Speaker 2: sits down and kills the bird that camp be killed.
Speaker 2: And they had been sicken hunters on that bird and
Speaker 2: people couldn't kill that bird.
Speaker 6: Well, hey, that reminds me of Barry Newcomb's hunt the
Speaker 6: other day that he had on public land. He had
Speaker 6: him for four days. Super short story. The morning that
Speaker 6: he killed his gobbler, he had four different guys he could.
Speaker 6: He was sitting across this big, big ravine and he
Speaker 6: saw headlamps coming down to this goblin turkey like before daylight,
Speaker 6: and he and and he heard a guy above him, Allan,
Speaker 6: and he hears this one turkey and all these guys
Speaker 6: hear it, and he knew what that turkey had done
Speaker 6: the day before, and so he took off up the
Speaker 6: mountain and he got pretty lucky. But it was also
Speaker 6: informed luck. Ye, And I mean basically bushwhacked that turkey.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, yeah, it wasn't it.
Speaker 6: I mean that turkey heard those box calls going off
Speaker 6: at daylight and was just like out.
Speaker 2: Of here too much. Don't sound right. He's like a
Speaker 2: lot more hens in here than there was.
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, yeah, and they're carrying headlamps.
Speaker 2: Pat Dirkin just wrote an article, So here's the background
Speaker 2: and the report published April third in the peer reviewed
Speaker 2: journal Frontiers and Conservation Science. Not familiar, you're familiar.
Speaker 5: I've heard of it.
Speaker 2: Research was from Cornell in University of Wisconsin at Madison.
Speaker 2: Came out to say, the states have flubbed deer management.
Speaker 2: States have blown it to me deer. They're managing deer
Speaker 2: for the benefit of too few people. Too may deer
Speaker 2: run around getting too many car crashes. Now we've got
Speaker 2: disease issues. We should bring in the FEDS and hand
Speaker 2: deer management in the United States of America over to
Speaker 2: a federal agency. That's one of those just shot in
Speaker 2: the dark academic papers. That's a news that's like kind
Speaker 2: of be provocative. That's poking the who do you poke?
Speaker 2: Poking the bear bears, not dragons. That's a poking the bear.
Speaker 3: Poking the dragon. That's a good one though, because like
Speaker 3: you know, darn getting well, our buddy Doug Duran would
Speaker 3: be like, you know, his very informed argument, right, is
Speaker 3: like look at the brows, look at the forestry correlation
Speaker 3: to deer populations. It's like these are unhealthy for us,
Speaker 3: caused by unhealthy deer numbers.
Speaker 7: Do you think he would argue on behalf of the
Speaker 7: FEDS managing deer.
Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying.
Speaker 3: I think he would if it. If it's saying it's
Speaker 3: going to be a stronger deer management, it's more of
Speaker 3: a holistic landscape management, then yeah, he would be persuaded
Speaker 3: that way.
Speaker 6: They say that, they that, they say that current management
Speaker 6: agencies have allowed deer impacts to grow into nationwide into
Speaker 6: a nationwide conservation and human health crisis.
Speaker 2: Come on, I mean, I mean a little a little
Speaker 2: bit like come on.
Speaker 5: My knee jerk reaction. I'm I'm typically always in favor
Speaker 5: of consolidating power at a higher level.
Speaker 13: Really, I was trying to I was like, what, sorry, sorry, Arkansas, Yeah,
Speaker 13: my bad.
Speaker 2: Go Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean I feel like calling I feel like that
Speaker 5: sort of reflexively just goes against everybody's instinct, especially when
Speaker 5: it comes to wildlife management. It's like, we should just
Speaker 5: take this all away from the states in the way
Speaker 5: that things have been going on, and just centralize decision making.
Speaker 2: If I was at the state level on this, I
Speaker 2: would point out I would say that the states, they're there,
Speaker 2: the state, the state's management policies are suffering from social issues,
Speaker 2: meaning they're saying please kill dose kill white tail? Does
Speaker 2: please please please? Reported on it last year the head
Speaker 2: of the Michigan State Agency came out and said, I
Speaker 2: don't know what to do. We can't get people to kill.
Speaker 2: Does right? People aren't killing dose hunters. I would almost
Speaker 2: look at like a wake up call. So unless the
Speaker 2: Feds are gonna come in, and the Feds are gonna
Speaker 2: they're gonna have to do one of two things. The
Speaker 2: Feds are gonna come in, They're gonna.
Speaker 6: Have to make it that people have to kill deer,
Speaker 6: which is gonna go over well, like like you get
Speaker 6: a letter in the man Well, it's like jury dude,
Speaker 6: Like it's like a jury duty summons saying you gotta
Speaker 6: go kill those quota Like what really are they gonna do?
Speaker 6: Or this guy is or these researchers saying we're gonna
Speaker 6: bring in the Feds and we're gonna bring in We're
Speaker 6: gonna you know, remember all the black helicopters when.
Speaker 2: They're gonna pose the New World Order.
Speaker 6: They're gonna get those black helicopters fueled up, and the
Speaker 6: feds are gonna start to deer eradication program.
Speaker 2: Well maybe what are they gonna do.
Speaker 5: Maybe they're gonna bring in drones. Yeah, just drones. I mean,
Speaker 5: I do wonder if the argument is the arguments that
Speaker 5: the federal government wouldn't be as constrained by social.
Speaker 2: The social but they're not constrained. The states are saying,
Speaker 2: please kill those please, what's gonna take? What's gonna take?
Speaker 2: How about we do this? How about we make it
Speaker 2: that you can't kill a book until you to kill those. Well,
Speaker 2: those programs don't work. Yeah, how about we give you
Speaker 2: all the dough tags you want. Tried that? How about
Speaker 2: we let you hunt pretty much seven months out of
Speaker 2: the year. Tried that. How About we make it.
Speaker 6: Where you can and donate even an ungutted dough to
Speaker 6: a food bank and they do all the work for you.
Speaker 6: I mean, I think it's all a lot of it's
Speaker 6: about work. It's like you're out there home and it's like,
Speaker 6: do I want to shoot this dough?
Speaker 2: Time?
Speaker 6: When I shoot this animal? This this starts a pretty
Speaker 6: big process.
Speaker 2: How About we let you use kind of a gun
Speaker 2: during deer archery season. It's like there's nothing. There's nothing
Speaker 2: that they're trying everywhere that has uh that has a
Speaker 2: I don't know, like an over objective deer herd. They're trying,
Speaker 2: so bringing the feds, but until they're going to bring
Speaker 2: in like a punishment mechanism, Like I don't really know.
Speaker 2: I haven't read the stupid article either.
Speaker 7: I know researchers literally wrote this, but it feels like
Speaker 7: a straw man argument, like there are very very few researchers, biologists,
Speaker 7: federal or state level that would make the same argument.
Speaker 2: It's a bear poke. Yeah, Like it's it's just uh poke.
Speaker 7: There's no folks that agree.
Speaker 3: What would be your letter to the judge be like
Speaker 3: I got to get out of dough duty, you know,
Speaker 3: the boss, or travel a lot for work. I'm not
Speaker 3: going to be there.
Speaker 6: I'd be like, man, hey, I got a huge buck
Speaker 6: on camera. He's coming into the corn like every afternoon.
Speaker 2: I don't get by dose. I really I can't do
Speaker 2: this right.
Speaker 14: Uh.
Speaker 2: Last, what we're gonna get into this is a touchy one.
Speaker 2: B l M is going to deny the permit for
Speaker 2: the Ambler Road project. Yeah, yep, b the bl Bureau
Speaker 2: Land Manager. Well, first off, here's the sorry.
Speaker 3: Not deny, right, they're they're just they're doing a no decision,
Speaker 3: no action, no action.
Speaker 2: Not issue. Yeah, Ambler Road was there's an Ambler mining there.
Speaker 2: There's a what's the word for a whole bunch.
Speaker 3: Just like a pot of gold, Yeah, like untold billions,
Speaker 3: but estimated in the many, many billions of dollars worth
Speaker 3: of wealth in various ores.
Speaker 2: High end minerals, stuff that be used for cell phones,
Speaker 2: stuff to be used gold as in the Ambler Mining district.
Speaker 2: What's preventing extraction of those resources is they would need
Speaker 2: to build a two hundred and fifty mile industrial corridor
Speaker 2: cutting through the southern face of the cutting across the
Speaker 2: southern face of the Brooks Range. It would have what
Speaker 2: would it would cross thousands of streams and rivers in
Speaker 2: an area that right now is an unroaded you know,
Speaker 2: it's it's kind of like the biggest chunk of non
Speaker 2: developed landscape we have on the continent.
Speaker 3: People would use the word pristine, yeah, right, well, like
Speaker 3: it's not developed.
Speaker 2: It would be baseline pristine, right. It would be like
Speaker 2: you know, people love to.
Speaker 3: Argue about pristine versus Daniel Boonez.
Speaker 2: When people love to argue about, you know, definitions of
Speaker 2: wilderness and all that, like, you know, it's a human
Speaker 2: it's a made up concept, and to Native Americans it
Speaker 2: was home and it's not all that aside that would
Speaker 2: be if you're going to fine wilderness, I'd be like, well,
Speaker 2: let's start with that. Okay, two hundred and fifty mile
Speaker 2: corridor that would have been not open for public use.
Speaker 2: That was part of the deal they were brokering. It's like,
Speaker 2: so people like, what about all this penetration of all
Speaker 2: this vehicular traffic, Well, we wouldn't use it for that.
Speaker 2: It will only be used for mining. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of people that wanted it, the political you know, like
Speaker 2: a lot of the political establishment in Alaska wanted it.
Speaker 2: There were Native villages that were in support of it,
Speaker 2: and a lot of people didn't want it. I I
Speaker 2: took like a very he like, my look on it
Speaker 2: is real simple. My look on it was I worry
Speaker 2: more about running out of wilderness than I worry about
Speaker 2: running out of roads, and I didn't want to see
Speaker 2: it happened. And that's how that trivialize the arguments that
Speaker 2: our people have about job creation and economics, and like,
Speaker 2: you know, the national security concerns about where we get
Speaker 2: your minerals from. I look at it like in like
Speaker 2: three hundred years down the road, not even one hundred
Speaker 2: years down the road, whatever it is, I think that
Speaker 2: most people would be glad we didn't do it, just
Speaker 2: like now, it was controversial. It was. It was as
Speaker 2: we talked about, when Theodore Roosevelt made the National Forest System,
Speaker 2: people were pissed. They made legislation to prevent him from
Speaker 2: keep doing it. Now we're like, thank god he did that.
Speaker 2: Let's carve him in a big mountain next to George Washington.
Speaker 2: You know, sure, glad he thought to do that. Let's
Speaker 2: call you know, a bunch of conservation groups Theodore Roosevelt
Speaker 2: this and that. Uh, no one is gonna I don't
Speaker 2: think anyone down the road would have been glad we've
Speaker 2: done that. They were gonna put a big mine, they
Speaker 2: were gonna put a big dam in Livingstone at a time,
Speaker 2: in flood that valley. Do you think anyone right now
Speaker 2: as pissed as they were when they couldn't do it,
Speaker 2: is anyone right now saying God, I really wish we'd
Speaker 2: damned that whole damn thing up.
Speaker 5: The jet ski industry, the jets industry, the jes ski.
Speaker 2: Industry is bummed. There's just certain conservation moves that later
Speaker 2: people will look and be like, wow, glad we didn't
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's the same thing, not the same thing,
Speaker 5: but it's it parallels in some way as the conversation
Speaker 5: we had about technology, where it's like your frame of reference.
Speaker 5: If something happens fifty years ago, you're like, man, obviously
Speaker 5: they made the right cross, they made the right call then,
Speaker 5: and now there's a similar question. And it's not all
Speaker 5: the same. But in hindsight, some of these things look
Speaker 5: like common sense, but in the moment they're highly controversial.
Speaker 2: Yep. And I could see like who know, Like geopolitically,
Speaker 2: you know, who knows? Who knows in the future what
Speaker 2: situation the nation might be in. And there could be
Speaker 2: a situation in the future where the nation's in a
Speaker 2: situation where we revisit it and we're like, no, for
Speaker 2: real now, Like in terms of like real right now
Speaker 2: here and now national security issues, we have a serious problem.
Speaker 2: I think it's gonna be different conversation. Well, but the
Speaker 2: shit ain't going anywhere.
Speaker 6: That goes back to the idea that that wilderness is
Speaker 6: a luxury of the culture that has has a lot
Speaker 6: of strength and monetary value. There's a lot of in
Speaker 6: the wilderness argument about you know, part of the reason
Speaker 6: we've been able to preserve so much wilderness is because
Speaker 6: we didn't have to exploit every square inch of ground.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 6: There's some great quotes from some guys you know about like, yeah,
Speaker 6: we're a great nation because we didn't have to take
Speaker 6: every last stick of lumber and every last mineral out
Speaker 6: of the ground.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: There, it could be different. I mean if we were
Speaker 6: the if the if the socioeconomic things flipped one hundred
Speaker 6: years from now, seventy five years from now, fifteen years
Speaker 6: from now, it's like.
Speaker 2: We're in some like prolonged global war or some prolonged
Speaker 2: global standoff. We might look and be like, you know what,
Speaker 2: maybe the maybe we should drill the NPR, maybe we
Speaker 2: should mine the Ambler Mining District, Maybe we need to
Speaker 2: move into the.
Speaker 11: And war.
Speaker 2: But like right now, look at I don't.
Speaker 3: In times they're great. In times of great conflict and necessity,
Speaker 3: Congress can make a decision, right like we have that
Speaker 3: in our history. That's an established ability that we have,
Speaker 3: right Like Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor. Yep, we made a
Speaker 3: decision as a nation real fast.
Speaker 2: No one could buy silk anymore. All the silk goes
Speaker 2: to parachutes.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now, if you've done that before or the war, people
Speaker 2: been like what or like there's food like whatever, like
Speaker 2: in extraordinary circumstances. So I don't really buy the I
Speaker 2: don't like, I don't buy that argument right off the
Speaker 2: bat because I think that the whole conversation would change
Speaker 2: in a crisis. It's not a crisis right now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we can, we can still afford to have wild places.
Speaker 7: Yeah, how much would you care about this topic if
Speaker 7: it was like in Canada or Russia?
Speaker 2: Very little? Well, it'd be less because I'd feel like
Speaker 2: it was I would care, but it.
Speaker 3: But it's a little bit not your business.
Speaker 2: It would be not even not my business. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have like a I wouldn't feel that I had a
Speaker 2: voice that need to be heard. But when it comes
Speaker 2: to federal lands, it's it's as a United States citizen,
Speaker 2: you have a vested interest, so a dog, you have
Speaker 2: a right to speak about it. I mean do I
Speaker 2: am I bummed that the Amazon has disappear at the
Speaker 2: rate that it is. Of course, do I feel like
Speaker 2: I have a move to make not as readily as
Speaker 2: I have a move to make there. Yeah, I'm like
Speaker 2: a I don't know, I'm like an environmental nationalist.
Speaker 3: Right, tell people not to buy Argentine beef by made
Speaker 3: in America beef, and you can help the Amazon that's about.
Speaker 5: And help the American rancher that's right, win win, yep.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean it is like, I love Canada,
Speaker 3: love my time spent there. They have some amazing wildlife
Speaker 3: opportunities and programs, and I would be able to speak
Speaker 3: on the fact that, like, boy, I hope they don't
Speaker 3: mess this up just just because of whatever policy, But
Speaker 3: then I would only be able to fall back on
Speaker 3: the fact like I don't know the whole picture because
Speaker 3: I'm not as invested, but doesn't seem like a good idea.
Speaker 3: Whereas with this particular thing, I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: migratory birds, fish, it's a porkypine, porcupine, caribou herd.
Speaker 6: Right on the other Yeah, no, it's western, it's central
Speaker 6: or western.
Speaker 3: But you know, like we know these Caribou herds are
Speaker 3: in decline. We know that they.
Speaker 2: Add porcupine to the east.
Speaker 3: Do not deal with change well, like to the point
Speaker 3: where it's such a hard concept for people to grasp
Speaker 3: when you talk about it, like, well, what do you
Speaker 3: mean they just can't walk over a road? I'm like,
Speaker 3: well they can, but to them, like you know, it's
Speaker 3: like it's a bizarre concept. But yeah, I think like
Speaker 3: we're all very much in a position to weigh in
Speaker 3: and should weigh in on these things if they're important
Speaker 3: to us.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you, Seth Canton's real happy right now. All right,
Speaker 2: we're gonna wrap up. Thanks y'all.
Speaker 6: Hey, Steve, I've got one thing. I'm gonna go back
Speaker 6: to the beginning. May seem a little out of place.
Speaker 6: I think you need to talk about your old girlfriends.
Speaker 6: Less I didn't say, what are you talking about?
Speaker 7: You?
Speaker 3: You're gonna hate the next podcast.
Speaker 6: The first you're opening line on this podcast, you were
Speaker 6: talking about some old girlfriend you had, And I'm just saying,
Speaker 6: I think you need to dial a quarter century ago.
Speaker 6: I think you need to before. I think you need
Speaker 6: to let the past die. We all think it, we
Speaker 6: all know it. We love you. You need to You need
Speaker 6: to do all that back a quarter century ago, long
Speaker 6: before I knew my wife the one to hear about this.
Speaker 2: Though she's grown up, she's not, She's a woman. Let's
Speaker 2: let's ask her together.
Speaker 7: Okay, I think i'd like you to talk about him more. Yeah,
Speaker 7: I have to, like, I'd like to further the conversation
Speaker 7: around and I don't.
Speaker 2: I think i'd like more.
Speaker 6: Do you guys agree?
Speaker 10: Though?
Speaker 6: Come on, col I disagree?
Speaker 2: Is that me and my wife that like we're comfortable
Speaker 2: with the fact that we were alive a long time
Speaker 2: before we met each other.
Speaker 7: Okay, can I ask you an ex girlfriend questions?
Speaker 2: Like what you do? He just did the barber.
Speaker 7: You once talked about how somehow we were talking about
Speaker 7: corn smut on trivia. Well, let me tell the story,
Speaker 7: and you know you're okay? An ex girlfriend you.
Speaker 3: Said's got to turn their dose.
Speaker 2: I have a lot of tech problems. It's like, I
Speaker 2: can't begin to tell you.
Speaker 7: That an ex girlfriend once threw your keys into a cornfield. Yes,
Speaker 7: and what was the argument? That's what that's the detail.
Speaker 7: I was really I've been hung up on that for
Speaker 7: a year.
Speaker 2: I have no recollection, but it was on Katie Road,
Speaker 2: not far down from Ronnie Bab's house. Uh, and just
Speaker 2: took my car never found him. This is evil and
Speaker 2: bombed him out into a corn field. That's a good
Speaker 2: trip to walk to walk a few miles. Did like
Speaker 2: did you become?
Speaker 7: Was she an ex girlfriend at that moment?
Speaker 2: I don't even remember, dude, I don't know. It was
Speaker 2: like something just got mad about something. I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't think she really thought of how hard it
Speaker 2: be to find him out there a standing cornfield.
Speaker 7: And walked you walked upon some corns.
Speaker 3: And I don't take it can be confused with like
Speaker 3: wistfully looking back on a time spent in another relationship.
Speaker 2: Clay, I'll tell you I've taken it makes sense every
Speaker 2: time I give my wife a tour where I grew
Speaker 2: up and she's sick. She's like, how could someone as
Speaker 2: old as you be so surprised that things have changed
Speaker 2: since you were a little kid. Usually this is part
Speaker 2: of my tour tour. I'm like, somewhere out there, seventy chevy, I'll.
Speaker 6: Be having a conversation with her about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay with this, all right? Thanks so.
Speaker 10: Yo.
Speaker 8: I'm a backwoods game for real.
Speaker 2: Job.
Speaker 15: He stay sharp because I know murderers looking behind them.
Speaker 8: Tray bus and caps and me both booths.
Speaker 15: Couldn't get a barn with my pears like a gold
Speaker 15: chant steffany cots like there's cocaine, got a sexy ass
Speaker 15: water on my neck, got six inchers and don't disrespect.
Speaker 16: Ain't high in my bost all night spitting that hands,
Speaker 16: getting in fights camp when we went to white.
Speaker 8: Cast calls real brun.
Speaker 16: It's like truck and needs It's like base balls, Scot.
Speaker 16: I'm a bus tom, badass, certified, moss back Bluna, tic
Speaker 16: long beard, thunder chicken, himmer head king because I got
Speaker 16: a white crown watching homies getting murdered dead on the
Speaker 16: ground at scared of a now more crow.
Speaker 8: Go wait, I'm gonna shock bumble bro walk into the party.
Speaker 8: Four strut from my studs, still the brood knocking in
Speaker 8: the club.
Speaker 15: Dot Beef with the homie name Jake for shore so
Speaker 15: as Jenny took her home.
Speaker 8: Then I made a purr, don't talk for read, you
Speaker 8: care for me? Came a wearing airshres. I makes you
Speaker 8: see go damage you.
Speaker 11: Ll forss.
Speaker 8: Go shout out to my marry up with the four lawsuits, shoo.
Speaker 14: My rods down in a boom, A fiolas over in
Speaker 14: my head, Boom to my eastern and then long boom
Speaker 14: course three o' runner, the light.
Speaker 16: Stop and I stopped in the border hobies the also
Speaker 16: ladies boom along as job.
Speaker 8: You want your job to stop stop by amut