1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,040
Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, and today I'm

2
00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,000
Speaker 1: talking about why being good with money still feels so

3
00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:27,960
Speaker 1: hard with Shauna Game. All right, So, how many of

4
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 1: us ever stop to think about how our hormones shape

5
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,519
Speaker 1: our spending decisions or our confidence with money. It's just

6
00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,160
Speaker 1: something we don't really talk about. But money is emotional, right,

7
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,279
Speaker 1: It's never just numbers on the screen. And so if

8
00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,519
Speaker 1: you are carrying around old money mistakes, if you're feeling

9
00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,160
Speaker 1: stuck in maybe some of the same patterns that you've

10
00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,279
Speaker 1: had in regards to your finances for years on end,

11
00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,640
Speaker 1: or you're just unsure why you keep second guessing yourself

12
00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 1: when you're trying to make changes, This episode is for you.

13
00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,640
Speaker 1: Today's guest shawna Game. She is both a CF and

14
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,120
Speaker 1: a money therapist. She helps people understand the deeper forces

15
00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,560
Speaker 1: behind their financial decisions so they can ditch the shame,

16
00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,280
Speaker 1: ease the stress, and build a healthier relationship with money. Shauna,

17
00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:14,479
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me. I'm so glad

18
00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 1: you're here.

19
00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,520
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. This is my favorite

20
00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:19,479
Speaker 2: topic to talk about.

21
00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,319
Speaker 1: So lovely. Oh I love it too. I think it's

22
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,840
Speaker 1: so fun. The intersection I was just telling your before

23
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,400
Speaker 1: we started, like four one k contribution limits. Still interesting,

24
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,560
Speaker 1: less interesting than some of the topics we're going to

25
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,240
Speaker 1: cover today. First question for you is what do you

26
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,160
Speaker 1: like to suplor John Like we call it the craft

27
00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,399
Speaker 1: beer equivalent because we like spending a lot of money

28
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,800
Speaker 1: on good craft beer, but we're still doing the smart

29
00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,440
Speaker 1: stuff with our money, saving for our futures'. What's that

30
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:45,120
Speaker 1: splurge for you?

31
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:52,760
Speaker 2: Absolutely anything dessert, the sweeter, the better cookies, ice cream, cupcakes.

32
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,360
Speaker 2: You got a good piece of pie, a good you know,

33
00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,480
Speaker 2: six layer cake, you're gonna get my money. Even if

34
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:04,480
Speaker 2: it's tasty, there's still gonna be something redeemable from it's

35
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:05,320
Speaker 2: That's my theory.

36
00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,320
Speaker 1: I love it. Okay, would you have a eve an

37
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,440
Speaker 1: absolute favorite like last meal sort of dessert? What would

38
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,200
Speaker 1: you want to cap it off?

39
00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:20,519
Speaker 2: Well, I have this sort of second talent. I make

40
00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,120
Speaker 2: what I call the best gluten free cupcakes ever, so

41
00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,440
Speaker 2: I would say probably my dessert. But if I wasn't

42
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,760
Speaker 2: splurging to go buy like expensive gluten free you know,

43
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,640
Speaker 2: flour and all the right butter, the Irish gold butter,

44
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,200
Speaker 2: I would probably say, like a really nice have you

45
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,720
Speaker 2: heard of like celebration cake that's like got sprinkles in it,

46
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,480
Speaker 2: and it's basically like you know, a fun like glorified

47
00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,200
Speaker 2: kids but adult version cake. So it's loaded with sprinkles

48
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,600
Speaker 2: and you got like your nice you know, cream cheese

49
00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,760
Speaker 2: frosting in the middle. I would probably have something like that,

50
00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,280
Speaker 2: like one of those things where or the minute you

51
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,480
Speaker 2: bite into it, like you can feel the sugar rush happening.

52
00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 2: That that would probably be it for me.

53
00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,440
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you if you made your own desserts,

54
00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,440
Speaker 1: so it sounds like you do, because that's at least

55
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,960
Speaker 1: a way too, because when you think about going out

56
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,200
Speaker 1: to eat, that's one of the they could call it

57
00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,440
Speaker 1: the Bermuda triangle right out at the restaurant. If you

58
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,960
Speaker 1: get the drink and the app and the dessert, like

59
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,919
Speaker 1: your bill's gonna skyrocket, and every time one, I'm usually

60
00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 1: too stuffed because they put too much on the main

61
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,840
Speaker 1: course plate anyway to get dessert. But it's it's also

62
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 1: incredibly expensive when you look at I'm like a twelve

63
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,200
Speaker 1: dollars for a slice of cake, Like that's ridiculous. So

64
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 1: I would rather have the homeaids. I think it'd be

65
00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,440
Speaker 1: more palatable to me, But it's not my craft your equivalent.

66
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 1: If it was, I'd probably gladly spend money on it.

67
00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, I mean everyone's everyone's got their thing, and

68
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,800
Speaker 2: I always say, like, have dessert first and then that

69
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,440
Speaker 2: really that way, like you don't feel so guilty about,

70
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,880
Speaker 2: you know, the twelve dollar You're like, I already like,

71
00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:57,680
Speaker 2: I already filled myself up. I might as well just

72
00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,640
Speaker 2: like get the salad and a glass of water or

73
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:00,560
Speaker 2: something like that.

74
00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if it how well it jives with

75
00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,000
Speaker 1: the new food Health Pyramid, but who cares you now, Like,

76
00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:06,640
Speaker 1: do you do your thing?

77
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 2: It's my version. It's my version, and it works and

78
00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,200
Speaker 2: I'm sticking to it.

79
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 1: So as we're talking in craft beer equivalent, is there

80
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,720
Speaker 1: such a thing as a healthy indulgence financially speaking? And

81
00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:19,359
Speaker 1: what makes it healthier or not?

82
00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,800
Speaker 2: It's such a good question, and I think it's one

83
00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,839
Speaker 2: that we stumble with so often because we're so used

84
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:32,320
Speaker 2: to equating like frugality and saving money and minimalism with

85
00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,480
Speaker 2: the way we're supposed to do money, the way we're

86
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,160
Speaker 2: supposed to, you know, do money and think about money,

87
00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,039
Speaker 2: and so I think that just leads to like a

88
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:44,200
Speaker 2: sense of rebellion. And I really feel like people just

89
00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:49,160
Speaker 2: need permission to find one like one exemption, like one thing,

90
00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,000
Speaker 2: whether it's your celebration cake or your craft beer, like

91
00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,720
Speaker 2: one thing that you just you like, you just can't

92
00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,120
Speaker 2: live life without and build that in. And so I

93
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,760
Speaker 2: think it's different for each person. I think the problem

94
00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,479
Speaker 2: is is we get into the you know, emotional side

95
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,040
Speaker 2: of money, which I know we're going to talk about,

96
00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,719
Speaker 2: and our emotions trigger us and we go out and

97
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,400
Speaker 2: we just buy everything. We buy, like the whole bar

98
00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,359
Speaker 2: of our craft beer, and that's how we get we

99
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:17,839
Speaker 2: get kind of in trouble. But I think if you

100
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,359
Speaker 2: find one thing that you just have, you know, maybe

101
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,640
Speaker 2: once a week or once a month or something like that,

102
00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,880
Speaker 2: it just makes life a lot more doable.

103
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,080
Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting you said once a week or

104
00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,640
Speaker 1: once a month. I literally saw a poll today that

105
00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,279
Speaker 1: talked about retail therapy and how much money the average

106
00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 1: American spends buying stuff for emotional reasons. It was it

107
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,159
Speaker 1: was pretty ridiculous to see not just how much money

108
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,800
Speaker 1: was spent, but the average person in the given year

109
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,800
Speaker 1: does retail therapy. They confess one hundred and seven times

110
00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,080
Speaker 1: a year, So that's let's say that's almost two to

111
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,520
Speaker 1: three times a week they're making some sort of impulse

112
00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:00,560
Speaker 1: purchase to do some emotional soothing. How prevalent an issue

113
00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:01,320
Speaker 1: do you think that is?

114
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,159
Speaker 2: It's incredibly prevalent. And I think that you know, we

115
00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 2: have media, we have social media, we have even TV

116
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,080
Speaker 2: news that is constantly throwing you know, ads at us

117
00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,599
Speaker 2: of bye bye bye bye, bye bye bye, and there

118
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,839
Speaker 2: there are subtle messages under all of them which are

119
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:24,280
Speaker 2: emotional uh kind of related, you know, emotionally for us.

120
00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,159
Speaker 2: They're meant to be triggers. That's what the word I

121
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 2: was looking for. And so I think that it's really

122
00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,160
Speaker 2: easy to do this in a very sort of unconscious way,

123
00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,159
Speaker 2: and it's it really isn't until you kind of pause

124
00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,240
Speaker 2: and look at how you're spending your money through a

125
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,640
Speaker 2: different lens and through like an emotional filter that I

126
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,400
Speaker 2: think you can start to pick out, like these one

127
00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,600
Speaker 2: hundred and seven right things that we're buying, and if

128
00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 2: those one hundred and seven things are one hundred, two

129
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,400
Speaker 2: hundred dollars or whatever that might be, like that is

130
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,279
Speaker 2: really depleting all of your other goals. And so I

131
00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,360
Speaker 2: think it's just about it's about finding this balance, right,

132
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,320
Speaker 2: It's about having things that we want to spend money

133
00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,279
Speaker 2: on that make us feel good, but also bringing this

134
00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,800
Speaker 2: sense of intention to what we are buying so that

135
00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,720
Speaker 2: we're able to think about it from a more rational

136
00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,320
Speaker 2: perspective and less of that like dopamine hit. I need to,

137
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,800
Speaker 2: you know, soothe my emotions. I'm feeling something, so I'm

138
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,040
Speaker 2: going to go buy X. And that's just kind of

139
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 2: how we're automatically trained to approach this.

140
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that survey said something. I forget exactly what the

141
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 1: percentage was, but most people regretted at least at least

142
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,360
Speaker 1: like half of those knee jerk spending decisions. And I

143
00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:39,920
Speaker 1: think about that in my life when I look at

144
00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,320
Speaker 1: what's on my shelf and I'm like, how much did

145
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 1: I spend on that? Do I feel like I've gotten

146
00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,400
Speaker 1: my money's worth? And when when you think about it

147
00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,200
Speaker 1: through that lens, I'm like, what if I could have

148
00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,600
Speaker 1: that money back right now and get rid of this item.

149
00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,600
Speaker 1: So much of the time I would take that trade

150
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,640
Speaker 1: because there's better things I could think to do with

151
00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,040
Speaker 1: that item. And you don't want to like live in

152
00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,200
Speaker 1: that world. But that's at least I think a decent

153
00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,720
Speaker 1: exercise to be like, oh, yeah, I have spent a

154
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,240
Speaker 1: lot of money in ways that really don't resonate with

155
00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 1: my greater deeper goals. Or early on in your book

156
00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,800
Speaker 1: you say, before you can make better outward money decisions,

157
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,600
Speaker 1: you have to look inward. Can you can you explain

158
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:15,680
Speaker 1: what you mean by that.

159
00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,160
Speaker 2: I am like a classically trained money expert, a CFP,

160
00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 2: a trauma of money specialist, and so I've done all

161
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,120
Speaker 2: this sort of book learning around money, and what I

162
00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,360
Speaker 2: found working with people and just being around humans was

163
00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,360
Speaker 2: that we struggle with money because we're looking for like

164
00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 2: the ten steps. We're looking for how do I do

165
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,000
Speaker 2: this exact thing, and we keep kind of getting stuck,

166
00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,040
Speaker 2: like I say, on the other side of the bridge, right,

167
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,199
Speaker 2: we want to get to the to the other side,

168
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,280
Speaker 2: and like we can't figure it out, and we keep

169
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,440
Speaker 2: kind of banging our heads against the wall. And this

170
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,320
Speaker 2: is normally where people start to have the feeling of

171
00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,720
Speaker 2: I'm bad at money. You know this advice doesn't work,

172
00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,880
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. And what I mean by going

173
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,120
Speaker 2: inside first is really looking at what are your beliefs

174
00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,800
Speaker 2: around money? How do you even feel about money? And why?

175
00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,000
Speaker 2: Why do you feel that way? Where did you come from,

176
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 2: how do your parents relate to money? What happened in

177
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 2: kind of your lineage? And you know, what are your

178
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,840
Speaker 2: triggers around money? And a lot of this process is

179
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,560
Speaker 2: about going internally right, noticing like, oh, every time I

180
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,440
Speaker 2: open up my bank app, my heart races or you know,

181
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,400
Speaker 2: my palms get sweaty Okay, well what is that about, right?

182
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 2: And so it's digging into these deeper messages of what

183
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 2: is getting in the way. And I really believe that

184
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,240
Speaker 2: if we taught this about money that it would be

185
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,800
Speaker 2: way more transformational than you know, just telling people to

186
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,239
Speaker 2: like cut out lattes, which doesn't work.

187
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,960
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, And so much of that advice makes

188
00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,600
Speaker 1: it feel like we're broken, right and yeah, well how

189
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,040
Speaker 1: some other people can do it and I can't. And

190
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,559
Speaker 1: one of the things you also talk about in the

191
00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,040
Speaker 1: book is how I'm curious to know what you think

192
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,360
Speaker 1: about trauma. Do you think we're overusing it? But one

193
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,920
Speaker 1: of the things that you say, I think it has

194
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,160
Speaker 1: become this catchword right where it's like, oh, man, I

195
00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 1: think last week traumatized me. And you're like well, there's

196
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,240
Speaker 1: real trauma, and then there's like, I don't know, maybe

197
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:22,800
Speaker 1: the thing, the word that you're using, I don't think

198
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,440
Speaker 1: it means what you think it means. But you also

199
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,679
Speaker 1: say that money trauma leaves an imprint, which sounds deep.

200
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,760
Speaker 1: Does that mean that it's how hard is it to overcome?

201
00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:32,600
Speaker 1: Like money trauma that we've experienced.

202
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,440
Speaker 2: It gets wired into our nervous system. And you know,

203
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,840
Speaker 2: our nervous system was set up, you know, way back

204
00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,559
Speaker 2: in like cave man days to do good things right,

205
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,160
Speaker 2: to keep us away from like animals chasing us and

206
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,080
Speaker 2: all those sorts of things.

207
00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,520
Speaker 1: But just pesky saber tooth tigers, those tigers.

208
00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,560
Speaker 2: That were chasing after us. But we still feel that way,

209
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,560
Speaker 2: like our nervous system still feels like, oh my gosh,

210
00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,679
Speaker 2: you know, if I paid my bill, you know, a

211
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,960
Speaker 2: day late, or if I didn't make this investment choice,

212
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,400
Speaker 2: like that tiger is still chasing we. And so these

213
00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,200
Speaker 2: things get wired into our nervous system, and they could

214
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,360
Speaker 2: be really small. They could be like you forgot to

215
00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 2: pay a bill, or your credit score isn't where you

216
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,240
Speaker 2: want it to be, or maybe you made an investment

217
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,360
Speaker 2: that went you know, kind of sideways, or it could

218
00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,800
Speaker 2: be something big. Maybe you grew up in poverty, right,

219
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,320
Speaker 2: maybe you had some sort of financial abuse in a relationship.

220
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,480
Speaker 2: So it could be small things, it could be big things.

221
00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 2: But our body doesn't really know the difference. We just

222
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,200
Speaker 2: know that it didn't feel good and we don't ever

223
00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,520
Speaker 2: want to feel that again. And so it's a very

224
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,640
Speaker 2: sort of somatic, which is just a fancy word for

225
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:49,320
Speaker 2: bodily experience that we feel around money. And it's also

226
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,959
Speaker 2: why we could say something like I'm gonna be really

227
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,400
Speaker 2: good this year, like I Am not going to spend

228
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,959
Speaker 2: frivolous money, and then we find ourselves doing that, right,

229
00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,959
Speaker 2: or we get in debt and out of debt, and

230
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,840
Speaker 2: in debt and out of debt. It's because our body

231
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:05,720
Speaker 2: is just set up to kind of come back to

232
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 2: the set point, and we really have to like work

233
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:14,320
Speaker 2: with that in order to rewire it. It's a difficult process.

234
00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,080
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say like you just go, oh,

235
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,400
Speaker 2: this is what's happening and suddenly you're fixed, like this

236
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 2: is a lifelong thing. But I think when you start

237
00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 2: to bring some sort of awareness into what is happening,

238
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,200
Speaker 2: that's kind of the first starting point.

239
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,160
Speaker 1: And so awareness is one. And then I'm curious how

240
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,200
Speaker 1: much is like being honest saying it out loud, because

241
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 1: I feel like that's something you do in the book

242
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,360
Speaker 1: quite a bit. You're pretty honest about the mistakes you've

243
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,679
Speaker 1: made with money, which I think is just it's refreshing.

244
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,120
Speaker 1: But I think there's a big power in telling someone

245
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,800
Speaker 1: else your story or saying it out loud that then

246
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,880
Speaker 1: it can just kind of declutter some of that inner turmoil.

247
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,320
Speaker 1: How much do you think that.

248
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 2: Matters a thousand percent, Joel, because I think you know

249
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,840
Speaker 2: this too from a podcast where you talk about money

250
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,520
Speaker 2: all day long, is that it tends to live in

251
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,000
Speaker 2: kind of exile, right Like, So we put those skeletons

252
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,440
Speaker 2: in the closet. We don't want anyone to know the

253
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,959
Speaker 2: things that we have not done or the mistakes we've

254
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,679
Speaker 2: made around money. And so when we don't share those things,

255
00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,720
Speaker 2: we don't talk about them out loud, they perpetuate shame

256
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,720
Speaker 2: and we just feel worse and worse. And sometimes we

257
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,600
Speaker 2: do the opposite of what we want to do because

258
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,680
Speaker 2: we've wired ourselves to feel shameful. So we almost do

259
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,160
Speaker 2: the thing that we don't want to do because we're like, well,

260
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 2: I mean I already feel shame, I might as well

261
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,240
Speaker 2: feel more shame, Like that's a comfortable feeling for me.

262
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,280
Speaker 2: So I really think if you just sat down with

263
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,199
Speaker 2: one person, and it's got to be somebody that you trust,

264
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,640
Speaker 2: you could say maybe some things that feel a little

265
00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 2: messed up to you to that person and that person

266
00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 2: is not going to judge you, because that's the other

267
00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,240
Speaker 2: really important piece of the equation, But just to be

268
00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,960
Speaker 2: able to say something out loud, like oh my gosh,

269
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,720
Speaker 2: I you know overdraft in my account, or I make

270
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,680
Speaker 2: a million dollars a year and I am living paycheck

271
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,480
Speaker 2: to paycheck and I feel terrible about it. Like these

272
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:14,000
Speaker 2: things that feel like your worst secrets, they're really important

273
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:18,320
Speaker 2: to get out because that tells your nervous system like WHOA, Okay,

274
00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,440
Speaker 2: I don't have to like I don't have to carry

275
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,960
Speaker 2: this thing anymore, and I don't have to keep doing

276
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,320
Speaker 2: the same patterns that reinforce this feeling.

277
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:28,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, I think it's

278
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,720
Speaker 1: that shame cycle right and then and not. It's not

279
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,840
Speaker 1: that it's comfortable, but it's more comfortable than the discomfort

280
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,760
Speaker 1: we've experienced from the what ifs? What if I shared it? Like,

281
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,040
Speaker 1: how would somebody respond to me? And so I think

282
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,160
Speaker 1: I think it's good advice too to find a person

283
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,840
Speaker 1: you think that can hold that confession and be kind

284
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,480
Speaker 1: to you in it. What else do you think causes

285
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,920
Speaker 1: people to get stuck in their ability to make progress

286
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,840
Speaker 1: with money, because I think like you're also pointing at

287
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,440
Speaker 1: something where for most people, especially if they're new to

288
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,720
Speaker 1: trying to figure out their personal finances, if you were

289
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,520
Speaker 1: to ask them what they think the main problem is,

290
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,920
Speaker 1: they would probably tell you they think it's a math problem.

291
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,200
Speaker 1: But you would say, most of the time, it's not.

292
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,680
Speaker 1: It's not numbers, dollars and cents. Zero's that's not ultimately

293
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:19,560
Speaker 1: at the crux of why people are having issues.

294
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,640
Speaker 2: Typically, Yeah, I say it's an emotional wiring issue before

295
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,000
Speaker 2: it's a math issue, and that usually people are scratching

296
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,320
Speaker 2: their heads, like, I have no idea what she means.

297
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,400
Speaker 2: But I think the first place is really going back

298
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 2: to look at your formative years, and those are between

299
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,880
Speaker 2: age zero and seven. Scientifically, this has been proven that

300
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,840
Speaker 2: these are the most impactful years when it comes to

301
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,880
Speaker 2: creating your money, personality and how you interact with money.

302
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,320
Speaker 2: And you know, when I was writing the book, what

303
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,680
Speaker 2: was crazy for me is I don't have a lot

304
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 2: of memories before seven years old. But do you think

305
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 2: that that high period, Yeah, it was so impactful, just

306
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,880
Speaker 2: sort of blew my mind. And so that might you

307
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:07,800
Speaker 2: might be listening and you might be like me, or

308
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 2: you're like, I don't really remember anything, right, or maybe

309
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 2: you do, maybe there was something big. But what that

310
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,360
Speaker 2: points to, right, is how we were raised in the

311
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,080
Speaker 2: importance of how we were raised. And we were also

312
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,480
Speaker 2: raised with people who probably did not work on their

313
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,200
Speaker 2: relationship with money because that was not that was not

314
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 2: a terminology, that was not a thing that you did.

315
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,880
Speaker 2: And they probably held, you know, withheld their own mistakes

316
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:36,960
Speaker 2: around money, and maybe they didn't share it, right. And

317
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,600
Speaker 2: so these beliefs and and even this just sort of

318
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 2: feeling around money. So if if money wasn't a thing

319
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,720
Speaker 2: that was talked about in your household, but maybe there

320
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,920
Speaker 2: was a feeling. Maybe there's a feeling of fear or

321
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,960
Speaker 2: maybe of control or maybe security. Right, all of these

322
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:58,360
Speaker 2: different feelings we've sort of learned between ages zero and

323
00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,880
Speaker 2: a seven, like, oh, that that's what money represents, and

324
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,680
Speaker 2: that's what I need to recreate. So then we get

325
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,280
Speaker 2: in our adulthood years and we, like I said, you know,

326
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,719
Speaker 2: we're doing these things and we're living life, and we're like,

327
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,320
Speaker 2: why am I not getting ahead? Like everyone else seems

328
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,360
Speaker 2: to have it figured out? Which I will also tell

329
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,920
Speaker 2: you after working with hundreds of people, there's most everyone

330
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 2: does not have anything figured out.

331
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,399
Speaker 1: It's kind of like assuming the people in charge always

332
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,280
Speaker 1: know what they're doing, and then you get in to

333
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:29,720
Speaker 1: hang out with people like that and you're like, oh,

334
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:30,600
Speaker 1: I don't know what they're doing either.

335
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 2: You're like, wait a minute, they don't know what they're doing.

336
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 2: We're all in trouble. Yeah, yeah, And I think that's

337
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,359
Speaker 2: what the really unique thing is because we tend to

338
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,119
Speaker 2: think that if we just made X amount of money

339
00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,200
Speaker 2: whatever that is for you, that all of this stuff

340
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 2: would disappear. And I will tell you that I have

341
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 2: worked with so many people who reach that X amount

342
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,239
Speaker 2: of money and they still feel the same way. So

343
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 2: then it becomes about, well, it can't be the number

344
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,639
Speaker 2: in your bank account. We can't tie that to identity

345
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,439
Speaker 2: or success or perfection or whatever that might be, because

346
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,479
Speaker 2: it doesn't work. So then what is it? Right? So

347
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:14,159
Speaker 2: that's where this deeper looking at your belief system and

348
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,800
Speaker 2: how you just sort of innately feel about money and

349
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,400
Speaker 2: why you feel that way becomes super important.

350
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,920
Speaker 1: You have in the book, you offer up a suggestion

351
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,680
Speaker 1: to people to create a money timeline. So let's say,

352
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: like when you said that zero to seven, I have

353
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,119
Speaker 1: like a lot of distinct memories in particular about how

354
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,280
Speaker 1: money happened in our family and how it affects me

355
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,400
Speaker 1: to this day. More from the age of I would

356
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 1: say like nine to fourteen, but going back to before seven,

357
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,520
Speaker 1: I'd have to really like sit down and do some thinking.

358
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,240
Speaker 1: But tell me about the money timeline exercise and how

359
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,879
Speaker 1: that can maybe help people go back and unheerse some stuff.

360
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love this. I love exercises, I think, especially

361
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 2: when we're talking about like sometimes it's hard to conceive.

362
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,800
Speaker 2: So in the book, I throw out all sorts of

363
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,960
Speaker 2: different things. But it's as simple as like grabbing a

364
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 2: sheet of paper and drawing a line down the middle,

365
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,480
Speaker 2: and you know, putting on top little dashlines and everything

366
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,159
Speaker 2: that you remember positively about money, and below the line

367
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,960
Speaker 2: everything that you remember negatively. And these could be feelings,

368
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,320
Speaker 2: they could be events, they could be things like you know,

369
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 2: paid off my student loan or you know, if you

370
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 2: really start thinking about those zero to seven years, it's

371
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 2: really thinking back to okay, liked what did I do

372
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 2: as a kid? Like how did we spend our time?

373
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,679
Speaker 2: What did we do when we went shopping? And like

374
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 2: when I started to think about this, I remembered like, oh,

375
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,639
Speaker 2: every time I would go shopping with my mom, we

376
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 2: would go straight to the clearance aisles, like every time.

377
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,479
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, as adult, like that's crazy because

378
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 2: I know we had enough money that we could have

379
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 2: bought the regular priced items, but we always went to

380
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,160
Speaker 2: the same Like why did we do that? And then

381
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:08,159
Speaker 2: recognizing that right now, recognizing as an adult, I do

382
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 2: the same thing, and like why do I why do

383
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 2: I choose to do that? Not that there's a right

384
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,399
Speaker 2: or a wrong answer to it, but it's having this

385
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 2: like deeper understanding of Okay, So some of these things

386
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 2: were imprinted in me long ago. What do they mean?

387
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,640
Speaker 2: And how are they showing up now? And I think

388
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 2: when you do this timeline, I want you to start

389
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 2: thinking about like what is truth? And you know, what

390
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:34,119
Speaker 2: is fact? What is fiction?

391
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 1: Right?

392
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 2: And a lot of times what we do is we

393
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:41,639
Speaker 2: bring the fiction into into how we operate around money,

394
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,679
Speaker 2: like this idea of oh, I'm bad with money, or

395
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 2: I've always got to have shame, or I don't know

396
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 2: how to do things, or you know, looking for like

397
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,359
Speaker 2: the magic pill, if you will. And so you start

398
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,640
Speaker 2: to see different patterns that emerge, and if you can

399
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,359
Speaker 2: be really truthful and honest with yourself and do this

400
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 2: exercise is more of like a history collection, you'll start

401
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,879
Speaker 2: noticing things like, oh, these sort of interesting patterns keep emerging,

402
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 2: like why is that? What is that about?

403
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 1: Also, one of the things you point to you mentioned somatic, right,

404
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,360
Speaker 1: and you're talking about how that that's basically like we're

405
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 1: noticing how your body responds in certain situations and how

406
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 1: you talk about how money anxiety can create a bodily response,

407
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,400
Speaker 1: And a lot of therapists will talk about that, right,

408
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 1: how's your what's happening in your body right now? Right

409
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 1: as you talk about this or as you think about this,

410
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: And for for a lot of people with money, there

411
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: is like if they're in a specific situation that feels uncomfortable,

412
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 1: their body will do something. What should we look for

413
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: in our bodies when we're talking about money and Is

414
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 1: it like a lump in the throat, Is it like

415
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,399
Speaker 1: a tightness in the gut? And then what is that

416
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 1: telling us?

417
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 2: It could be something different for everybody, but it's the

418
00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 2: it's the sort of unease sensation. So it could be

419
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 2: you know, your heart, you start feeling like your heart

420
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 2: rate going up a little bit, maybe there's a little

421
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 2: sense of anxiety, palm sweaty, Maybe your shoulders get tight,

422
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 2: you know, just sort of a tightening of the body.

423
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 2: I had had somebody I worked with and she's like,

424
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 2: every time I sit down to like go over in

425
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 2: my spending, my left foot gets so tight and sore

426
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 2: to the fact, like when I stand up, I almost

427
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 2: kind of hobble a little bit. She's like, could you

428
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 2: think that could be related? And I'm like, absolutely right.

429
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 2: So we we all carry our attention in different ways.

430
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 2: And you know, the way to start noticing this is

431
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 2: when you interact with money. So it's either you're you're

432
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,160
Speaker 2: doing some sort of transaction. Maybe it's even in how

433
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 2: you're talking. Maybe you need to have a talk with

434
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 2: your partner about money. Right, just taking a second and

435
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: going like just a body check, okay, Like what feels tight,

436
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 2: what feels loose, and if it is tight, why is that?

437
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 2: Like they're a part of this conversation or this transaction,

438
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,479
Speaker 2: this thing I'm going to do that maybe there's a

439
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: belief around it. Maybe I am dreading something. Well, why

440
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 2: am I dreading that? Right? So it's just it's like

441
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 2: you're trying to just kind of play a game of

442
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 2: clue with yourself to figure out why that might be.

443
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 1: Or there's more I want to talk about with you, Shauna,

444
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: including what about the folks who are doing great and

445
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: they still feel stressed by their finances or when they

446
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: think about money. We'll talk about that and more. Right

447
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: after this, I'm talking with shawna game. We're talking about

448
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 1: trying to be good with money, but the things that

449
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: hold us back, and Sean, one of the things you

450
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: say that most of us settle for a crappy relationship

451
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: with money, but building a healthy money mindset is kind

452
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: of like building muscle. I don't know much about that,

453
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: so you're gonna have to tell me what that's what

454
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,160
Speaker 1: that's like. But like part of it is positive self talk,

455
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: replacing negative thoughts with positive ones. That sounds great, but

456
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: it also sounds like sorry therapist jargon. So tell me

457
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 1: what you mean by that? What does it look like?

458
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: Then if you're feeling a lot of those negative realities

459
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: about money, and you do kind of have like feel

460
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: like body tension when you're like, oh, I'm supposed to

461
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: talk about money with my spouse to night, or I

462
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: got to work on my budget, or I'm trying to

463
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: think about you know, what it looks like to make

464
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: positive changes this year? How do we kind of write

465
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: the ship?

466
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's such a hard thing to like

467
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: put an exact answer on because it really is going

468
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 2: to be different for every person, which also sounds a

469
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 2: little bit like a cop out answer. But you know,

470
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 2: what we've been talking about a lot is just having

471
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 2: this awareness of what is going on. And the second

472
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 2: piece coupled with that awareness is the why piece, And

473
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: this is the piece that requires some sort of honesty.

474
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: So I I share this story in the book that

475
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: for probably ten years, and this is me, as money

476
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: expert doing this, I never looked at an ATM receipt.

477
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: I hated it. This is when you used to go

478
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 2: back right and drive. If you're old enough to remember that,

479
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 2: you used to drive to ATMs because.

480
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: You didn't want you didn't want to know your balance.

481
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: I didn't want to know my balance, right, And so

482
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 2: when it would spit out the receipt, I would just

483
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 2: fold it up and put it in my wallet. And

484
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: it was because if I looked at those numbers, the

485
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 2: way my brain works is I'm really good with numbers

486
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: with other people, but for me, I get this sense

487
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: of panic, and in like a split second, I can

488
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 2: start deducting like all the things that I know that

489
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 2: are coming up my bank account and start to feel like, well,

490
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 2: I'm gonna lose my house, I'm not gonna have any

491
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 2: money to pay my bills. I'm gonna be a failure.

492
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 2: Like it's it's completely irrational, it doesn't make sense, it's

493
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 2: never happened, it probably will never happen, but that doesn't matter, right.

494
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: My body was sort of wired around money to have

495
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 2: this this kind of reaction, and so what I really

496
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: had to do were a lot of the exercises I

497
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 2: talk about in the book. Like before I went in

498
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 2: and you know it spit out receipt, I had to

499
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: tell myself like, Okay, these are just numbers on a

500
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 2: piece of paper. These numbers are not who you are

501
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 2: as a person. They're not your identity. There's a way

502
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 2: we can have like a cool calm, you know, experience

503
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: with this, and even if I got nervous, it was

504
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 2: just a lot of talking to myself, but also a

505
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 2: lot of honesty like why do I feel this way?

506
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: Where is this coming from? And like how do I

507
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 2: how do I sort of help myself off this ledge?

508
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: And that also started with having conversations with people about God,

509
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 2: I've like, does anyone else have this? Does anyone else

510
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: like freak out when they look at the numbers? And

511
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: people be like, yeah, I do that too, well, why

512
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 2: do you think you do that? I think this is

513
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: why I do it? So it was starting to take

514
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: down some of those shame layers. One of the exercises

515
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: I do with everybody is something I call financial forgiveness,

516
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: and there's there's some scientific evidence. Right of setting a

517
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 2: timer on your phone ten minutes, I want you to

518
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 2: write down every single thing, every single mistake, every single

519
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: thing you think you should have would have could have

520
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 2: around money, like everything. I just want you to get

521
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: it out on paper, step away for twenty four hours,

522
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: come back, read it over right, and tell yourself like

523
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 2: I'm I'm letting go of these things. I want you

524
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: to burn it, shred it, tear it up. Whatever. Doesn't

525
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: automatically erase those things, right, but it starts to tell

526
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: you your body and your nervous system, like we can

527
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: have a reset point. We don't have to have the

528
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: same experience around money that we've been wired to have before.

529
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: So I mean your question like we could do a

530
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: whole three hour like you know, we could do a

531
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 2: whole three hour exercise on it. But I say, it's

532
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 2: always you know, we talk about micro goals a lot

533
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: when we talk about money. It's the same sort of

534
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: like my gross steps that we're doing with this. It's

535
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: just a little bit ooh, okay, I feel this, Like

536
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 2: why is that happening? Ooh? What if I kind of

537
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: came at it from a different direction or tried something different. Okay,

538
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 2: let me try that. That didn't work, Okay, let me

539
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 2: try this. So it's having this sense of accountability with

540
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 2: the sole purpose of like I don't want to spend

541
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 2: my whole life feeling crappy around money, feeling anxious around money,

542
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 2: or feeling triggered around money.

543
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: Well, that exercise right there, too seems to me part

544
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: of the power is It's like, these are past actions

545
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: that I've performed, but almost like the act of getting

546
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: them out, written down on paper and then eradicating them.

547
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: It's like, but that's not who I am. Like you're

548
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: divorcing the action from the person. And I think it's

549
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: I think it's really important because it's really easy to

550
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: leave those inside and be like, that is who I am,

551
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: that is part of my and you're kind of trying

552
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: to I guess divorce in some ways identity from like

553
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: things you've done.

554
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I feel like there's such a correlation between

555
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: what you do, how much you make, how much is

556
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: in your bank account, right, how much is in your

557
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: retirement account, and who you are as a person. I

558
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: feel like we've gotten into this place and it's just

559
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: getting amplified, it's not getting reduced. And so you have

560
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: a lot of people who are walking around feeling really

561
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: crappy about themselves because of a certain number, and not

562
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 2: that there isn't maybe some legitimacy to that, but my gosh,

563
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: like imagine if we had some sort of freedom from that.

564
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, it just feels like a better way

565
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: to do this thing.

566
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I've this I know I'm probably not alone

567
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: in this, but I might be an outlier that there

568
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: might be some other hod of money listeners that struggle

569
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: with this as well. That like, I found myself totally

570
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 1: stressed out about money even when I'm on the right track,

571
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: when I am like making progress, my net worth is

572
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: going up, I've done the things I said I wanted

573
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: to do, but still I'm stressed. Right Like if I

574
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: were to log in and look at the the numbers

575
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: in the fidelity broker's account, it wouldn't soothe that sort

576
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: of underlying reality like I haven't done enough. Like what

577
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: what's going on under the surface from somebody who's like

578
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: a like a money overachiever in some way, someone who

579
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: is doing the right stuff but still feels like they

580
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: can't get peace.

581
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: I think what you're talking about, Joel, so many people

582
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: can resonate with. So I think, thanks so much for

583
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 2: sharing that because that I see that a lot. And

584
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: I think there's a couple of things that are going on.

585
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: One is, we live in an incredibly scarcity driven society.

586
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: So even if like we're watching commercials and they're talking

587
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: about you know, retirement plans or something like that, there's

588
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: some sort of message underneath that you're you're not far

589
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: enough along, right, And so even if you know mathematically

590
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: you are, that doesn't like you're saying you anything for

591
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 2: the nervous system interaction with that messaging. So I think

592
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: that's one thing. Another thing I think is that we're

593
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 2: also taught that this idea of enough is something that

594
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: is always far out right, like we're never going to

595
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: reach this place of enoughness. And so what I like

596
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: to welcome people to do is just to think about, like,

597
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 2: what does enough really look like in your life? And

598
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 2: what elements of that are you already living, right? What

599
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: elements like can we tell your nervous system like, hey,

600
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,719
Speaker 2: you're doing good, like you're doing okay, Let's see if

601
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: we can substitute a different feeling word in and just

602
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: help you know. Have you say it a bunch of

603
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: times every day? See what that does to your nervous

604
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: system and the pieces that you feel like you're still

605
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: reaching towards, like great, What do we need to do

606
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 2: mathematically but also emotionally to help you feel like you're

607
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: stepping towards that? So I think we tend to think

608
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: of everything external when it comes to money, right, Instead

609
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 2: of bringing some of that internal really having that a

610
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: vision for what we want, why we want it, what

611
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 2: is the feeling or the emotion underneath it, and what

612
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 2: parts of it do we already have Like that we

613
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 2: can already claim to tell our bodies like hey, it's okay,

614
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: like we're actually doing really good. We can interact by

615
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 2: looking at our retirement account balance and the numbers reflected

616
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: back to us. A don't have to deflate us or

617
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: you know, enhance our ego, but be we can look

618
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: at it for the sense of like, okay, this is

619
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: a good thing, Like I feel good about money or

620
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: about where I am today. Right, And so I think

621
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: there's just this this kind of combination of pairing the

622
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: feelings and thinking about what I'm feeling? Is that? Is

623
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: that true? Is that not? Can I can I insert

624
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 2: a different word that is actually the truth about what's

625
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: going on? And really just sitting and owning that.

626
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: We talk about the Puritan work ethic, but I think

627
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: there's like a Puritan frugality ethic as well, and at

628
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: least for some people, right, it really sets in And

629
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: maybe it's the stories you heard about your grandma during

630
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: the Great Depression and how she reused everything and didn't

631
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: and didn't buy anything that wasn't completely necessary. And in

632
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: some ways those stories can be inspiring because you're like,

633
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: that's amazing that people can deal with that and get

634
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: through it. But then that can impact us, I think,

635
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: and even to the point of feeling guilty about spending

636
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: money on things that we have budgeted for, that we

637
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: have called out as being good and something that we

638
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: legitimately care about, even when we can totally afford it. Right,

639
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: it's not going on a credit card that we can't

640
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: pay off at the end of the month. How do

641
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: we overcome that guilt about spending in ways that move

642
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: the needle for us?

643
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: I think this goes back to what we were what

644
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: we were talking about the beginning, which is giving yourself

645
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: some permission to incorporate some of those expenses that you

646
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: feel really good about, right Like if your thing is

647
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 2: craft beer is if your thing is like going out

648
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 2: to hang with your friends every week, if your thing

649
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 2: is getting a massage once a month, it's figuring out

650
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 2: how to incorporate that into your spending. And the second

651
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: piece of that is saying like, hey, this is part

652
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: like this is part of my fixed expense, right, This

653
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 2: is part of what makes me me incorporating that expense

654
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,439
Speaker 2: in but then also doing a really good come through

655
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 2: of like what can I cancel? What can I pause?

656
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: What can I swap? Right? What can I do in here?

657
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: I always tell everyone, like you can find money in

658
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: your bank account. I can find money in anybody's bank account.

659
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: It's just about really looking at the expences and saying,

660
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: like what do I care about and what do I

661
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 2: actually not really care about that I just do for

662
00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 2: that kind of dopamine hit around spending. And I I

663
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 2: think when you start to do this, it might feel

664
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 2: a little scary at first, but it starts to become

665
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 2: really powerful, Like you start to feel like you have

666
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: a greater sense of control over where your money's going.

667
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: And just that that act I think helps you create

668
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: a pause between I'm just going to go out and

669
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,919
Speaker 2: spend all my money and you know what, maybe there's

670
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: like one thing I'm gonna go buy today and like

671
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: that's going to give me the dopamine hit and I'm

672
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 2: gonna feel good, and the other things like I don't

673
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 2: need those, right, Yeah, So I think it's it's this

674
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 2: process of giving yourself permission to spend money on things

675
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: that you really enjoy, but also coming at it with

676
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: some sort of intention, like it can't be everything, but

677
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: it can be certain things. And I think when we

678
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: do this, like there's less of that rebellion that we

679
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: feel around spending our money.

680
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: I'm curious as there was a post in the how

681
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: of Money Facebook group recently about financial infidelity and I

682
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: didn't I haven't actually, I don't know if you've addressed

683
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: this or if you address this in the book. If

684
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 1: you do, I don't remember it. But how this feels

685
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: like it's becoming more common right where in a partnership

686
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: one person has debt that the other partner doesn't know about,

687
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: or they're even racking it up, racking up credit card

688
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: debt behind their back. How how do you address stuff

689
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: like that when it comes to light in a relationship.

690
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,399
Speaker 1: That sounds like a really tough thing to move past.

691
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really tough thing. It's it's very common.

692
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: And this is where I say, like, you really have

693
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 2: to be cognizant of, you know, when there is deep

694
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 2: financial abuse. These are the times, like when you go

695
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: to a therapist, these are the times where maybe you're

696
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 2: looking at divorce or some sort of expert to come

697
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 2: in and help you, because you know, when we cross

698
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 2: over into like real infidelity, there's usually so much going

699
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 2: on under the surface that is deeper than what we

700
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: can kind of work together as partners. So, you know,

701
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: I want to just kind of say that, but I

702
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: feel like we're most of us are programmed because we

703
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: already feel some level of shame and guilt. Even if

704
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 2: we're doing well, really well with money, we feel some

705
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 2: level of shame and guilt around money. So that makes

706
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 2: us not want to talk to our partner about money,

707
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 2: right And they're feeling the same thing with different experiences

708
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: on their end, and so that in itself creates this

709
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: sense of like, well, I'm going to go buy things

710
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 2: and not tell you about them, specifically if we're together

711
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: and we have split finances, and if we just don't

712
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 2: talk about them, like we avoid any of that conflict,

713
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: But that often creates more conflict and usually worse conflict.

714
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: And so you know, it's a gentle, gentle process. But

715
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 2: I feel like if you're in the situation and you

716
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: want to talk to your partner, you have to come

717
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 2: at it a different way. You can't come at it

718
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: with more shame, with more guilt. You have to come

719
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: at it from a curiosity perspective, like ask lots of questions,

720
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 2: why do you make the choices that you do? You know,

721
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 2: why is this important to you? Why do you do that?

722
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 2: Tell me about that, Tell me more about how you

723
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: really feel about money.

724
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: Right.

725
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: It's having the sense of curiosity that helps lower the

726
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: you know, sort of pent up emotions that you're both

727
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 2: going to feel around money, so that you can try

728
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: to get to kind of the bottom of the onion,

729
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: right and figure out what is actually really going on,

730
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 2: because it usually is something related to self worth, identity.

731
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: There's some larger piece in there that is the foundation.

732
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: It's because it's understandable that you'd be angry, that you

733
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: would be hurt, But coming at it with those emotions

734
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: at the forefront is for the offending partner, it's like

735
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: going to drive them deeper into some of those spaces

736
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: that makes it harder for them to be honest, right,

737
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 1: or to move to be able to move forward from

738
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: some of the struggles that they face.

739
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a delicate place and it's really easy

740
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 2: to come into these conversations like super loaded because you

741
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: have your own story and your own belief system around money.

742
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: And I feel like, you know, if you can come

743
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: from this place of curiosity just really trying to understand

744
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 2: the other person, it is so helpful and not only

745
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: calming the waters, but also helping them get to the

746
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: bottom of why am I doing certain behaviors around money?

747
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: And you know, what is the root of that? How

748
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: do I figure myself around that? But yeah, it's I

749
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 2: mean in relationships, it's probably the most intense experience around money.

750
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine. Yeah, that's fortunately something I've not

751
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: had to had to deal with. But like I see,

752
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,919
Speaker 1: I've seen it happen for other people, and I see

753
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: the pain it can cause. And I see how just

754
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: an improper response, like a non emotionally regulated response, just

755
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: like makes everything worse. And yeah, you're on the same

756
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: team ultimately, even though one teammate, you know, did something

757
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 1: that harms both of you, like you have to address

758
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: it as a team. I'm curious too, Like we're still

759
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 1: at the point in the year where people who set

760
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: goals for twenty twenty six for their finances, like, even

761
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: if they're not off to a great start, man, they

762
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,720
Speaker 1: still got time to turn it around and hit those goals.

763
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: What's typically in the way of people reaching the lofty

764
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: money goals they've set for themselves. And I guess I'm curious,

765
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: how do you How do you think about setting money

766
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: goals in general? Is that? Is that like a beneficial

767
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: way to approach your finances?

768
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 2: It depends. I like to think about first, like, what's

769
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: the feeling I want to have around money this year?

770
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: So if it's ease, okay, what do I need to

771
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: do to bring in more ease? What does that look

772
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 2: like practically? What does it look like, you know, monthly, weekly, daily?

773
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: And can I break those things down into little micro

774
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 2: steps that I can achieve so I can cross things

775
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 2: off and my brain can go, look, you're doing it,

776
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: and my nervous system can say, look, we don't have

777
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: to be so scared around money, like we're figuring this

778
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 2: thing out even if we make a mistake, like that's okay,

779
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 2: We're human, right, So I like to approach it with

780
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: emotion first. Then we go to the numbers of the

781
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: actual practical pieces. If you're someone who's like I've got,

782
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 2: you know, ten thousand dollars of debt I've got to

783
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: pay off this year. If you frame it like that

784
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,240
Speaker 2: to your nervous system and your body, you will inevitably

785
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,959
Speaker 2: probably run up against some brick walls. Right, So break

786
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: it down. What is like I get to pay off

787
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars this month, Like okay, that's achievable, right,

788
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 2: What do I need to do to reach that? How

789
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 2: do I break that down? And so get to a

790
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: place where also your your nervous system is on board

791
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: with these particular goals is really important And I'm I'm

792
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: a fan of like let's pick one, two or three

793
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: goals for the year. Like when we start getting into

794
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 2: like ten or twenty, like that is just it's just

795
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 2: mass overload for almost you know, any brain, Like pick

796
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 2: a couple that you can achieve and if you hit

797
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: them early, great, pick three more and you know, rotate

798
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: through that system. But I think that you know, like

799
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: we're sort of trained with New Year's resolutions, right, that

800
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 2: we create all of these things and then they just

801
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 2: feel like, you know, at the end of January, it's like, oh,

802
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 2: we haven't done any of these things, like the whole

803
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 2: years of failure. So I don't want you to like

804
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 2: get into that place. You know, maybe every month is

805
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 2: a different emotion. Maybe this month's like, you know, I

806
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: just want to feel happy about where I'm at? Great,

807
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 2: how do I how do I make that happen on

808
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 2: a daily basis? And the next month is a different emotions. So,

809
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: you know, I think when you can get your nervous

810
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 2: system on board with what you're trying to achieve, you'll

811
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 2: you'll get a lot further than where you have been

812
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 2: in the past.

813
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: So often it feels like we're trying like they're at odds, right,

814
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: like the goal that we have and then but are

815
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: the way we feel about that are so they're in

816
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: complete tension, And so you're trying to run against our

817
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,839
Speaker 1: own internal reality in our attempt to do do well

818
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 1: with money. And you're like, you want both of those

819
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: horses pulling in the same direction, right, You want to.

820
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: Pull in the same direction, But you also want to

821
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: give yourself permission to mess this up, right. You want

822
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 2: to give yourself like twenty percent, thirty percent, maybe forty

823
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 2: percent permission to like get it wrong. Yeah, And that's

824
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 2: the other thing I think that we when we feel

825
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 2: about money, is like we have to do all the things,

826
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 2: and we have to do them all the right way,

827
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: and that's how we get, you know, back into the

828
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: shame spots. So, eh, you mess something up, like eh,

829
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 2: you forgot to calculate something like it's okay, the world's

830
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 2: not going to explode. Let's just do it differently next time.

831
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 2: And so telling yourself like it's okay, this is not

832
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 2: a perfect science is also I think a really important

833
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: piece here too.

834
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: I've actually got more I want to talk about with

835
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: you on the couples and money front, and how to

836
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: get on the same page when you have different relationships

837
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: to money based on how you grew up. We'll talk

838
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 1: about that with Shawna. Right after this, I'm talking with

839
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: Shauna Game talking about being good with money, getting good

840
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: with money and how so much of that comes from

841
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: internal work that we need to do. And Shawna we

842
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: talked about financial infidelity. But I'm also curious just in

843
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: relationships in general. Most like we as a couple, right

844
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: we even if we feel like we came from somewhat

845
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: similar backgrounds, we have similar values, we still have different

846
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 1: like histories with money that zero seven or zero to

847
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: ten or whatever, like, we just had different experiences and

848
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: those that history informs how we think about money now,

849
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: and we're bringing that into a relationship. It's not something

850
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: that we deal with just just on our own. So

851
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: how would you how do you help couples think about

852
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: like getting on the same page when you know they

853
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: have completely different realities in it with how they view money.

854
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: Who again, this is like another three hour conversation, you know.

855
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 2: The first thing is really to have an open conversation

856
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 2: about This may sound so super simple, but there is

857
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: so much depth about Hey, how do you each feel

858
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 2: about money? And why? Right? Tell me all about that,

859
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: like tell me the story of money of you with money.

860
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: And I find that when I approach it this way

861
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: with couples, people love to talk about themselves, so they

862
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 2: get really excited about like, oh, well then this happened

863
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 2: with money, and this happened. It is just a whole

864
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 2: different approach than like, Hey, we're gonna sit down at first,

865
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 2: and we're gonna talk about numbers. That's usually like the

866
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: last thing that we do. And when I start to

867
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 2: notice a certain theme or patterning in how somebody is talking,

868
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, there's a deep like shame pattern or

869
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 2: guilt pattern here. Then we start to like pick it apart,

870
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 2: like how do we get to a different piece of

871
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 2: the equation, you know, from guilt, Right, maybe somebody feels

872
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 2: terrible about about spending money on their kids or on things,

873
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: and like they're just having a panic attack almost every

874
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 2: time they're spending money. Like, Okay, how do we reverse

875
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 2: engine of that? How do we give you like a

876
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: set amount of money every month? It is like, you're

877
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 2: no guilt, no shame, little bucket, how do we create that? Okay,

878
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 2: you've got shame over here, so how do we create

879
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 2: something for you? So we start to kind of like

880
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 2: mush the numbers in the system together once we start

881
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: to really uncover these patterns of what's really happening when

882
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 2: each person interacts with money, and then it's about coming

883
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 2: to the table with like, Okay, we've got two people.

884
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 2: You each are going to have your strengths. How do

885
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: we play to those strengths and cover kind of the

886
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 2: backside for the weaknesses. And what you'll usually find in

887
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 2: a relationship is someone's really strong at one thing that

888
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 2: the other person is not so strong at, and so

889
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 2: it's about woo, look at that, like you're great at this,

890
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 2: and this person isn't as great as that great let's

891
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 2: put these together, so we start to kind of build

892
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 2: that house.

893
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 1: How often do you think like some of that headbutting

894
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: is just from a lack of understanding and like a

895
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: lack of actually ever having had that conversation.

896
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 2: Just a lot.

897
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's not like I'm purposely trying to misunderstand you,

898
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: or it's a truly like I didn't know that about you,

899
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: Like I had no idea that you had this money

900
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: history or that your childhood was fraught in this way.

901
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: And because and then it influences why you do things

902
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: now and that there's more grace than in that relationship

903
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 1: because they understand.

904
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 2: Why one thousand percent and we talk about I'm sure

905
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 2: you talk about these two having a money day with

906
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: your partner right where you sit down and kind of

907
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: go over things, bring the emotional component in that have

908
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 2: the capacity to say, ooh, you know, when we went

909
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: out to dinner the other week and that bill came,

910
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 2: I started to feel really nervous, like not that we

911
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 2: couldn't pay the bill, but oh my gosh, you start

912
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 2: thinking about what credit card and then oh, we got

913
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 2: credit card back? Like walk that through with your partner

914
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 2: in a way where you are just telling the story

915
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 2: of what you felt. It changes the tone, It changes

916
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 2: the whole interaction that you have with your partner because

917
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 2: you're able to express something that you normally would have

918
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: just buried and maybe it came out as defensiveness or

919
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 2: anger or some other emotion that was not helpful in

920
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 2: the partnership, because the whole reason you're with your partner

921
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: right is to create like a hopefully long lasting good exchange,

922
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 2: and part of that is just really understanding each other.

923
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 2: And at the depth of that, are these stories?

924
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, few last questions, going to make them super short.

925
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: I'm curious. Let's get straight to the point. If you

926
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: could ban one piece of personal finance advice from the internet,

927
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: what would it be?

928
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 2: Budgeting solves everything?

929
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: Oh, you don't have that tattooed somewhere on you.

930
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 2: I can, but I can't show you where.

931
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 1: No, just or what's a sign that someone is actually

932
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: winning with money? They're doing well even if their net

933
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: worth isn't impressive.

934
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: Ohoo, that's a tough question. I think that they generally

935
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 2: just have this sense of ease and intention around money, So.

936
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: It's just it doesn't frazzle.

937
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 2: Them, doesn't frazzle them like they can interact with money

938
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 2: and not get you know, sort of a heightened sense

939
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 2: of fear or panic or really any emotion. It just

940
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 2: becomes almost neutralized for them.

941
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,479
Speaker 1: What's a money rule that you've broken and you feel

942
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: great about it?

943
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 2: Um never be in credit card debt. I've broken it

944
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 2: many times for many good reasons and many not so

945
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 2: good reasons. And I have just learned, like, look, if

946
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,480
Speaker 2: I again, I'm going to use this word neutralized. If

947
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: I can neutralize the experience around it, then it takes

948
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 2: away any guilt shame around it.

949
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 1: Okay, all right? Uh Shawna Game, this has been such

950
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: a lovely conversation. Where can have the money listeners find

951
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: out about you and your book that came out last year.

952
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 2: You can find Unraveling your relationship with money everywhere books

953
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 2: have sold, and you can head to my website Heyshauna

954
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 2: dot com. I've got lots of great resources over there

955
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 2: to help you on this journey.

956
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: Awesome, Shawna, thanks so much, thank you. Ooh that was

957
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 1: such a good combo with Shawna Game. I just I

958
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: just like love talking to money therapists because they have

959
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: such insight about the ways that we get stuck. And

960
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 1: if you're listening to this, I'm guessing I'm guessing I'm

961
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,720
Speaker 1: not the only one. We've all felt stuck at some point.

962
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: I felt like we were spinning our wheels. And it

963
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 1: wasn't always because our paycheck were too small. It was because, yeah,

964
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: there was something going on inside that we were having

965
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: a hard time addressing. And it's interesting how even as

966
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: you make progress emotionally with money, and as you make

967
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 1: progress financially growing your net worth, growing your nest egg,

968
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 1: having more money in savings, that can help, right, That

969
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: can help soothe and ease your mind, ease your worries

970
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: because you look at the number on the page and

971
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,439
Speaker 1: you're like, ah, all right, I'm doing good. But even still,

972
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't guarantee that you move past all those feelings.

973
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 1: And there's often internal work that needs to be done,

974
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 1: and we talked about that in this conversation. It makes

975
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: me think, to my shame, I'll share this story real quick,

976
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: that my wife had bought a thirty dollars reading light

977
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,839
Speaker 1: for my son and man. When I bought reading lights

978
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 1: from my daughters, they I remember doing the research and

979
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: found them on a wirecutter and found the cheapest ones

980
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: that were really good, and they were I don't remember,

981
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 1: they were like ten dimes dollars, and so when she

982
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: said she spent thirty dollars on a reading lighte, I'm like,

983
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: it just for some reason just kind of like hit

984
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: me weird. And I remember having to talk to her

985
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh man, we could have just gotten

986
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: that so much, so much cheaper, And I know it's

987
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,439
Speaker 1: weird because the thirty dollars is not going to break

988
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: the bank, and I just had to We ended up

989
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: in that conversation going back to like, why am I

990
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: feeling this way? Why is this purchase like making me

991
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 1: feel so bummed out? And the truth is it does.

992
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: It came from comes from stuff that I've gone through

993
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: growing up. Ways that I think about money that they

994
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 1: don't necessarily they're not because of facts on the ground,

995
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,359
Speaker 1: but it's because of my nervous system and ways I've

996
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: experienced money growing up. And that's really helpful, right to

997
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: in the middle of the moment, have won a spouse

998
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: who's patient to walk through with that and discuss it

999
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: with you when it feels like you're just being ridiculous,

1000
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: because I was right, but it was more than that.

1001
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: And so I think for all of us, even people

1002
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: who are like have made a lot of progress, feel

1003
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,919
Speaker 1: like they're doing great, there's still like just internal work

1004
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: that can be done to help identify in moments like

1005
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 1: that where we might be tempted to say, oh, that's

1006
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,240
Speaker 1: that's too much money, that's too expensive, we can't afford

1007
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: that right. If you find yourself saying things like that,

1008
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: there's probably something underlying that needs to be addressed with

1009
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: how you're feeling about money. And that's so much what

1010
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: I love about what Shawna said in this conversation too.

1011
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 1: She's like, a good question to ask yourself is what's

1012
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 1: the feeling I want to have around money this year?

1013
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: And I think that's awesome, Like, it's not just the

1014
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 1: money progress, because if your feelings are not around your

1015
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: finances are not improving that just as your net worth is,

1016
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 1: then I don't know, maybe you're only hitting one side

1017
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: of it. So I love that question. It's a really

1018
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: good one. I'm going to start asking myself that question

1019
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,879
Speaker 1: more often. Another question she said that you should ask

1020
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: what elements of enough are you already living? Man, It's

1021
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: so easy to think about the progress I'm gonna make

1022
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: when I hit that number, when I reach that goal,

1023
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: that's how I'm gonna feel. The truth is, if you

1024
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 1: don't enjoy the journey, and if you don't realize the

1025
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 1: ways in which you already have more than you need

1026
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: in the here and now, it's gonna be really hard

1027
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,799
Speaker 1: to come to grips with that down the road. So

1028
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: let's kind of along this money journey be saying like,

1029
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: in what ways am I already crushing it? In which

1030
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: ways do I already have enough? So good wisdom from Shauna.

1031
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,240
Speaker 1: Thanks as always for listening. We'll have a fresh Friday

1032
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: Flight episode coming up for you on Friday. Until next time,

1033
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: best Friend Out,