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Speaker 1: Hey, Orgey, I have a question for you about forces.

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Speaker 1: For me, you're asking the cartoonists about forces. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: it's not a physics question. It's a Star Wars question.

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Speaker 2: Oh then yeah, I have a master's degree in Star Wars.

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Speaker 2: It's like a jd but it's more like a Jedi.

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Speaker 1: Nice. So there's like a dark side and the light

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Speaker 1: side to the force, right, uhh, So are these really

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Speaker 1: two separate forces, like unified by a physicist into a

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Speaker 1: single force?

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Speaker 2: Kinda? They're like two sides of the same force. That's

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Speaker 2: how they call it. That's why it's called the dark

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Speaker 2: side and the light side as a force venue.

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Speaker 1: So they're sort of like doing physics in the Star

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Speaker 1: Wars universe.

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Speaker 2: I think it's more of a fantasy, although you just

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Speaker 2: made me think, like, could there be physicists in the

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Speaker 2: Star Wars universe? I mean, somebody had to design those spaceships.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just engineers.

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Speaker 2: Maybe the Jedi are engineers force engineers that would explain everything.

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Speaker 2: You can be a Jedi. E. Hi, I'm Horamy Cartooniz.

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Speaker 2: I'm the author of Oliver's Great Big Universe.

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Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, and I'm still forcing myself to try

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Speaker 1: to understand physics.

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Speaker 2: Yet the force yourself I said, you were doing it

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Speaker 2: out of pure joy and curiosity.

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Speaker 1: I am, But sometimes you got to force those ideas

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Speaker 1: into your head. It's like reformatting your brain.

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Speaker 2: Disc because it don't fit or because there are too

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Speaker 2: complex what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Because they're not always intuitive. You know, the way that

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Speaker 1: we see the universe and experience it isn't always the

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Speaker 1: way it makes most sense to describe it mathematically. So

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Speaker 1: sometimes it takes a little bit of a brain reformat

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Speaker 1: to make it all work in your mind.

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Speaker 2: But if you have to force it doesn't mean you're

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Speaker 2: donate the wrong way. Shouldn't it all flow.

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Speaker 1: Dude, I'm not sure intuition and like sitting around the

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Speaker 1: night staring up at the stars, is enough to figure

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Speaker 1: out how the universe works. It needs some sort of

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Speaker 1: method because sometimes the answers are really counterintuitive.

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Speaker 2: Well, it worked for a long time, didn't it, using

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Speaker 2: our intuition staring up the nice guy to work for

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Speaker 2: thousands of years until maybe recently.

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Speaker 1: Depending on your definition of worked. I mean it also

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Speaker 1: led us to big misunderstandings in how the universe worked,

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Speaker 1: thinking that the Earth was at the center of everything,

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Speaker 1: for example, not really understanding all of the effects around us.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's led us somewhere, and we're hoping that it's correct.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that right?

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Speaker 1: It's led us today here to this podcast, the culmination

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Speaker 1: of all human wondering.

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Speaker 2: That's where we are, the climax of science. We are

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Speaker 2: the end result of all human curiosity, knowledge and inquiry

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Speaker 2: right here, right now. This is what it's come down to. Now,

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Speaker 2: Daniel say something profound.

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Speaker 1: We are a flea on the shoulders of giant.

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Speaker 2: I think somebody said that already.

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Speaker 1: I'm a flea standing on the shoulder of the person

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Speaker 1: who said that already.

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Speaker 2: We're just fleas on the universe of podcasts.

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Speaker 1: I think exactly. I hope nobody scratches this off.

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Speaker 2: That's right, sucking up the blood of advertising money. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: speaking of this podcast, Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and

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Speaker 2: Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we guide you on the journey of humanity

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Speaker 1: from being totally bewildered and confused about the universe we

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Speaker 1: find ourselves in to slowly piecing together a picture that

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Speaker 1: makes sense, combining ideas and merging concepts into a unified

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Speaker 1: understanding of how the whole universe works. What are these

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Speaker 1: laws that underlie everything? How do they come together to

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Speaker 1: make the universe that we love and experience?

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Speaker 2: That's right. It is a lovely universe full of questions

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Speaker 2: and mysteries. And we are the fleas that are making

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Speaker 2: you scratch that itch of curiosity about how it all works,

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Speaker 2: what's going on? And what are the forces or force

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Speaker 2: behind the motion of the stars.

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Speaker 1: Wow, we're the Flea's huh. That's not very glamorous.

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Speaker 2: Flea's good, isn't it. He's a basis for Red Hot

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Speaker 2: Chili Peppers, so you can be a cool flea.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea what you're talking about. Isn't the

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Speaker 1: flea also a superhero? You're thinking about the Tick?

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Speaker 2: I think you're thinking of the Tick? Yes, wrong, Although

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Speaker 2: faith there should be a superhero called the Flea.

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Speaker 1: Is the Flea the name of a musician in Red

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Speaker 1: Hot Chili Peppers?

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Speaker 2: No, he's uh. He's got control of the Flea Force,

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Speaker 2: both the dark side and the lights side of the

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Speaker 2: Flea Force.

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Speaker 1: What are you talking about? I am totally lost.

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Speaker 2: I think we lost our way here a little bit.

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Speaker 2: So let's scratch our way back and say that the

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Speaker 2: podcast is it's about all questions out there, even the

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Speaker 2: ones that have to do with superheroes and not superheroes.

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Speaker 1: And as curious humans in the universe, we look around

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Speaker 1: and we see all sorts of stuff happening. We see lightning,

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Speaker 1: we see magnets, we see rain, we see stars. We

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Speaker 1: want to understand each and everything. What is the story

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Speaker 1: behind it, what is the mechanism, what is the mic

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Speaker 1: groscopic explanation for what's really happening. But we don't want

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Speaker 1: a bunch of individual stories. Here's the law for like being,

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Speaker 1: and here's the law for magnets, and here's the law

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Speaker 1: for rain. We want one understanding. We want to unify

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Speaker 1: everything down into a single law that explains the whole universe,

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Speaker 1: because we think the universe does follow a law.

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Speaker 2: That's right. It's been one of the most amazing discoveries

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Speaker 2: of humankind and of science to see that behind the

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Speaker 2: chaos of motion around us, there are apparently fundamental laws

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Speaker 2: which govern everything. And those laws can sort of be

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Speaker 2: boiled down to a simple set of equations that describe

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Speaker 2: only a few forces in the universe.

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Speaker 1: And we can make progress in understanding these things by

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Speaker 1: doing more experiments. But we can also make progress just

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Speaker 1: by looking at the mathematical structure of these forces and say, hmm,

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Speaker 1: what's the relationship between them? Why do so many of

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Speaker 1: them have the same sort of force equation that's like

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Speaker 1: one over are squared. Why is this one different from

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Speaker 1: that one? We can look for patterns between them the

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Speaker 1: same way that we've used them to explain the things

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Speaker 1: we see in the universe, sort of like a mathematical

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Speaker 1: exploration of how the universe works.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess that's sort of been the history

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Speaker 2: of science in general, right, Daniel, in the sense that,

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Speaker 2: you know, the world is pretty complex when we see

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Speaker 2: it around us, but little by little science has sort

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Speaker 2: of found the commonalities, found, the patterns, found, the underlying

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Speaker 2: laws that seem to govern different phenomena, and it all

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Speaker 2: sort of turns out to be due to a simpler

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Speaker 2: and ever simplifying set of equations and concepts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's been the trend, and it's sort of incredible.

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Speaker 1: I mean, philosophically, you have no guarantee number one that

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Speaker 1: the universe does make sense, but number two that we

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Speaker 1: could figure it out, you know, that it's within like

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Speaker 1: the realm of human intelligence to solve this puzzle. And

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Speaker 1: number three that there even is a single unifying law

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Speaker 1: that describes the universe. You might have had a scenario

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Speaker 1: where like, different things are run by different laws that

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Speaker 1: just don't overlap or draw dotted lines between them. But

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Speaker 1: so far the trend seems to be towards unification, towards simplification,

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Speaker 1: towards a single underlying law, one we haven't yet been

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Speaker 1: able to uncover.

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Speaker 2: Right, I guess it could have been that, you know,

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Speaker 2: the universe worked in such a complicated way that it

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Speaker 2: would have been the equivalent of like us being fleas

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Speaker 2: or having the brain of a flea and trying to

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Speaker 2: understand what we know now of the universe. Right Like,

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Speaker 2: it could have been the universe was too complicated for

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Speaker 2: our brains to even try to understand or figure out

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Speaker 2: how it works.

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Speaker 1: It could still be right, because we certainly have not

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Speaker 1: figured out the whole universe. We don't know if that's

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Speaker 1: just because we haven't had enough time, or smart enough

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Speaker 1: human hasn't come along, or if the universe is just

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Speaker 1: beyond our ken it might be that, like the kind

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Speaker 1: of mathematics we use to think about the universe is

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Speaker 1: not appropriate, and that we're not capable of the sort

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Speaker 1: of higher level math that describes reality.

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Speaker 2: When you're saying we could still be fleas, we.

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Speaker 1: Could still general analogy exactly. It might be, for example,

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Speaker 1: that it requires higher intelligence or more brain power, or

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Speaker 1: a different kind of mathematical explanation, you know, one that

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Speaker 1: doesn't favor simplification in terms of little mathematical stories, but

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Speaker 1: more like tabulation. It might be that our ais are

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Speaker 1: more capable of sort of grocking the way the universe

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Speaker 1: works than we are. And then you have fun philosophical

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Speaker 1: questions like, well, if you build an AI that understands

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Speaker 1: the universe, do you also understand it right?

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Speaker 2: Or it could be that maybe fleas can understand the

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Speaker 2: universe what we do. Is that possible, like for them

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Speaker 2: to have maybe some quirk in the brain that makes

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Speaker 2: them capable of understanding the universe but not us.

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Speaker 1: It's certainly possible. I think it's very unlikely with fleas

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Speaker 1: because their brains are so simple.

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Speaker 2: But takes. You're saying ticks can do it.

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Speaker 1: There are other things on Earth that are definitely intelligent

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Speaker 1: in different ways from humans. I mean, crows can count.

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Speaker 1: Octopi have really interesting intelligences. You know. We think that

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Speaker 1: their neural computation is mostly happening in their legs, so

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Speaker 1: like their consciousness is a little bit more distributed. That

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Speaker 1: might lead them to a different way of thinking mathematically

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Speaker 1: and maybe an easier way to understand the universe. We

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Speaker 1: just don't know what the deepest nature of the universe

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Speaker 1: is and what kind of brain is best to explore.

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Speaker 2: So just ask an octopus maybe to explain physics to you.

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Speaker 1: You might get eight answers, though.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it might get wrapped up in all the tentacles

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Speaker 2: of the answer. But yeah, it's been a journey for

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Speaker 2: humans to boil everything down into a single sort of

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Speaker 2: set of equations. Now, how far can we go? That

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Speaker 2: is maybe the question we're asking today. So today on

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Speaker 2: the podcast, we'll be tackling the question did all the

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Speaker 2: forces used to be one? One?

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Speaker 3: What?

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Speaker 2: Daniel? One force, one band, one rock band, one octopus.

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Speaker 1: I'm going with the flea theory of the universe. One

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Speaker 1: flea explain every one flea?

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Speaker 2: Huh? But then what was the flea on?

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Speaker 1: What is the shoulder? Of the universe. No, it's boiling

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Speaker 1: it all down to one force, is the question?

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Speaker 2: So like all the forces used to be one, meaning

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Speaker 2: first of all, that the forces can change like a

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Speaker 2: force can change.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we think the forces operate differently at different sort

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Speaker 1: of temperatures, and the universe is definitely cooling. So as

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Speaker 1: the universe cools and expands, it goes through different phases,

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Speaker 1: and so the forces look different as we move through

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Speaker 1: those different phases of the universe.

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Speaker 2: So we have some forces that we think govern the

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Speaker 2: universe and how things move in it. And so the

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Speaker 2: question here is was there a time in the universe

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Speaker 2: when they were basically the same thing or when they

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Speaker 2: were sort of acting the same way exactly?

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Speaker 1: And can we recreate that scenario in our particle colliders.

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Speaker 2: Well, as usual, we're wondering how many people had heard

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Speaker 2: of this question, this idea and do they think that

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Speaker 2: all the forces could have been one before?

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Speaker 1: Thanks very much to everyone who plays in this audience

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Speaker 1: participation segment. We love hearing your voices and if you're

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Speaker 1: out there and would like to hear your voice on

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Speaker 1: the podcast, don't be right to me. Two questions at Danielandjorge.

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Speaker 2: Dot com So think about it for a second. Do

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Speaker 2: you think all the forces used to be one? Here's

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Speaker 2: what people had to say.

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Speaker 3: I think we have a pretty good idea that strong, weak,

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Speaker 3: and electromagnetism all used to be one force back in

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Speaker 3: the first gazillionth of a second of existence. Gravity, we

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Speaker 3: don't know. We may not even be a force like

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Speaker 3: the others. That's still an open question.

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Speaker 2: My simple answer would be yes.

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Speaker 4: Whether you believe in creation or you believe in some

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Speaker 4: other form evolution, everyone believes that there was one moment,

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Speaker 4: one singularity, one moment, one thing that set everything in motion.

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Speaker 4: So yes, all of the forces used to be one.

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Speaker 5: I wonder if the four forces that there are, electromagnetism,

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Speaker 5: weight force, and strong force all seemed to be very similar.

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Speaker 5: But there's something different about gravity, I think. So, I

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Speaker 5: think that the first story you potentially used to be one,

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Speaker 5: but gravity, there's something different about that.

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Speaker 6: Of course, the force, the one that unifies, give together

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Speaker 6: all the universe, and the only master Jediyes able to control.

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Speaker 6: That's for sure the original force for all the other forces.

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Speaker 3: Well, not.

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Speaker 7: In seriousness, I suspect that that is what physicists had

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Speaker 7: been trying to do for a long time to unify

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Speaker 7: the forces. And although the idea of all the forces

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Speaker 7: coming from one sounds very evolutionary and very tempting, I

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Speaker 7: think a lot of smart people have not been able

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Speaker 7: to figure it out how to solve that.

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Speaker 6: So I'm not sure at this point.

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Speaker 8: I feel like all the forces would have necessarily had

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Speaker 8: to have been one at the origination point, But what

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Speaker 8: happened after that or how long they stayed one before

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Speaker 8: becoming separate and distinct?

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Speaker 2: I have no idea, all right, A wide range of answers,

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Speaker 2: from religion to star Wars, which is a religion to

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Speaker 2: some people, to.

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Speaker 1: Faith in physics to figure it all out.

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Speaker 2: Or faith not the Jedi, the physics Jedi doctor Yoda

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Speaker 2: and his theories of the universe. All right, Well, a

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Speaker 2: wide range of answers. Some people think that maybe yes,

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Speaker 2: or maybe not one, or maybe we'll never.

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Speaker 1: Know all reasonable answers.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's dig into Daniel. What are the forces?

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Speaker 1: So first, just to put it in context, remember that

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Speaker 1: physics doesn't just deal with forces. We also deal with

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Speaker 1: stuff like we see stuff out there in the universe, particles, whatever.

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Speaker 1: But those particles are being acted on by forces, and

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Speaker 1: so we want to when we want to simplify the universe,

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Speaker 1: really the end goal would be to explain what is

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Speaker 1: the most basic stuff in the universe can be explained

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Speaker 1: in terms of like one kind of stuff and can

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Speaker 1: be explained all the motion the interactions of those things

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Speaker 1: in terms of one force. So this is sort of

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Speaker 1: like half of the larger physics school to unify everything

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Speaker 1: down to like one kind of particle and one kind

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Speaker 1: of force.

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Speaker 2: And so far we boil it down to a handful

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Speaker 2: of forces.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's right, So we have three or four or

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Speaker 1: five forces, depending on how you count those forces are,

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Speaker 1: like electricity.

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Speaker 2: What do you count within tentacles?

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Speaker 1: Well, then you're counting in base eight, so you're still

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Speaker 1: going to get the same number.

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Speaker 2: It just kind of seems like you're guessing, you're sounding

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Speaker 2: very undefinitive. You're like three or four or five or

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Speaker 2: maybe six or seven, perhaps kind of maybe eight.

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Speaker 1: It depends on how this is presented to people, And

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Speaker 1: I've learned that a lot of people have had this

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Speaker 1: presented in elementary school or in high school sort of

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Speaker 1: very different ways. And so if you ask people like

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Speaker 1: how many forces are there? Sometimes you hear three. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you hear five, and so I just wanted to be inclusive.

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Speaker 1: Will clarify it. So if you think most broad we

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Speaker 1: have sort of five forces. There's one electricity, two magnetism,

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Speaker 1: three the weak nuclear force for the strong nuclear force,

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Speaker 1: and then the fifth sort of question MARKI one is gravity.

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Speaker 1: So in the sort of broadest sense you have five.

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Speaker 2: I see, I like that designation question marking. Like we'll

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Speaker 2: just call it maybe the biggest most significant constant in

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Speaker 2: the universe. That then space and time we'll just call

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Speaker 2: it question marking.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have a lot of question marks about gravity,

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Speaker 1: you know, like is it even a force? How does

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Speaker 1: it all work? Can it be described quantum mechanically?

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Speaker 2: Dot dot dot dot dot YadA, YadA, yah.

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Speaker 1: YadA, YadA YadA. So particle physicists tend't sort of put

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Speaker 1: that one aside, be like, you know what, let's worry

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Speaker 1: about gravity another day and just think about the other

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Speaker 1: four the things that we know are actually forces, because

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Speaker 1: you know, gravity we don't even think it is a force.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't cause acceleration, It just bend space time. So

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Speaker 1: the other four are things we definitely think are forces,

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Speaker 1: and those are the ones we're working hard to unify

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Speaker 1: into one idea.

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Speaker 2: Does this Traditionally, there are four other forces besides gravity.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly, So you.

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Speaker 2: Just listed them, So should we go one by one? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: what's electricity or what's the electric force? Yeah, so this

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Speaker 2: is just the force between particles that have charge. Right,

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Speaker 2: two electrons will push away from each other, or an

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Speaker 2: electron and proton pull on each other because they have

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Speaker 2: electric charge. You could also say that's sort of like

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Speaker 2: what electric charge is. Electric charge is a label we

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Speaker 2: put on particles that seem to feel this electric force.

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Speaker 2: So some things have no charge, like the neutron or

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Speaker 2: the neutrino. Some particles do.

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Speaker 1: Have charge, like the electron, the positron, the proton, and

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Speaker 1: these definitely feel a force. Like you can make an

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Speaker 1: electric field and use it to accelerate particles through that field.

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Speaker 1: We definitely see that happening.

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Speaker 2: In the universe, and an electric field would have to

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Speaker 2: be generated by other particles would charge in the right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So one particle creates an electric field and

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Speaker 1: that operates on other particles and pushes and pulls on them.

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Speaker 2: And by pushing it pointly, you mean like if you

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Speaker 2: just leave them there, they'll they'll start moving. Yeah, exactly exactly,

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Speaker 2: they accelerate f equals MA forces require acceleration, and the

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Speaker 2: m in there is a then inertial mass of that object.

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Speaker 2: And so basically anytime we see acceleration, we're like, okay,

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Speaker 2: there's a force there, what's causing it? And its Historically

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Speaker 2: we see electricity in lots of places, static electricity, lightning

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Speaker 2: right now, of course we generate electricity and all of

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Speaker 2: those really very disparate phenomena, those different early human experiences

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Speaker 2: can now be explained using a single theory of electricity

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Speaker 2: and electric forces. Now, like, what's an example of everyday

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Speaker 2: life where we see the electric force, Like when our

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Speaker 2: hair stands up. If you rub a balloon and you

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Speaker 2: put in your hair, that's the electric force acting on

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Speaker 2: your hairs.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's definitely the electric force acting on your hair. Exactly,

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Speaker 1: you have like ionized particles on the balloon and on

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Speaker 1: your hair and they're attracting each other.

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Speaker 2: Okay, what's another example of the electric force.

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Speaker 1: Batteries, Right, batteries create an electric potential to create current flow.

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Speaker 1: Or if you stick your fingers in the socket not recommended,

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Speaker 1: you'll definitely become acquainted with.

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Speaker 2: The electric force, but you'll get a zap, but it's

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Speaker 2: not necessarily going to push or pull youard.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of energy there that's pushing and pulling

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Speaker 1: on those electrons to create the current, right, and so

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Speaker 1: that energy will get deposited into your skin in a

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Speaker 1: very unpleasant way. But yeah, I won't push or pull

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Speaker 1: push a whole bunch of electrons onto you, yeah, or

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Speaker 1: through you. Now, what about like the atom, like the

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Speaker 1: electrons hanging out near the nucleus which has positive protons,

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Speaker 1: is that the electric force keeping the electron orbiting around

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Speaker 1: the atom. Yeah, that's exactly it. There's a force between

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Speaker 1: the electron and the proton and that's what's attracted them together.

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Speaker 1: You know, in the early universe, electrons were moving really

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Speaker 1: really fast, and then when they slowed down, the proton

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Speaker 1: had enough electric force to pull on that electron and

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Speaker 1: to bind it into an atom. So that's definitely because

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Speaker 1: of the force between them. The same with it, Like

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Speaker 1: the Earth is bound into the Sun's orbit by the

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Speaker 1: force of graph gravity. Turned off, the Earth would just

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Speaker 1: fly off into space. If you turned off electricity, electrons

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Speaker 1: would fly off into space and leave their protons behind.

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Speaker 2: Right, or at least in a question mark you kind

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Speaker 2: of way. I guess, now, how is the electric force

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Speaker 2: different than the magnetic force or force of magnetism, because

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Speaker 2: I always kind of feel the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Maybe, well, they're definitely very closely connected. And we'll get

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Speaker 1: into that when we talk about the unification of the forces,

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Speaker 1: because that was the first big success of that whole

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Speaker 1: program of trying to explain multiple forces in terms of

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Speaker 1: one idea. But historically, like a long time ago, in

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Speaker 1: terms of like basic human experience, magnetism and electricity seem different.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are magnets out there in the world

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Speaker 1: and you don't get a spark when you touch them.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to have charge to have magnetism. So

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Speaker 1: like kitchen magnets, right, or like maglev trains, these are

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Speaker 1: all examples of magnetism out there in the world.

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Speaker 2: But they aren't they sort of maybe the same as

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Speaker 2: the electric force, like I always thought, maybe like a

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Speaker 2: magnet repels or is attracted to my fridge somehow because

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Speaker 2: the negative electrons and my magnet are somehow attracted to

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Speaker 2: the positive spots in the fridge. Or are you just

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Speaker 2: talking about like what we thought before?

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Speaker 1: Now, of course, We definitely know that electricity and magnetism

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Speaker 1: are very closely related. So closely related some people are

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Speaker 1: taught that they're the same thing, and you clearly have

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Speaker 1: an understanding of them as two sides of the same coin.

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Speaker 1: But yet historically they were different. And it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: James Maxwell noticed that the mathematics of electricity and the

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Speaker 1: mathematics of magnetism, like you wrote down the equations of

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Speaker 1: the two, they were very very similar, and there's this

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Speaker 1: like beautiful symmetry between them, and that they were interconnected.

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Speaker 1: That things with electric charges can make magnetic fields, magnetic

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Speaker 1: fields can generate electric fields. The two things definitely seem linked.

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Speaker 1: So in your fridge magnet, where does that magnetism come from, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's nothing in the universe we know of that like

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Speaker 1: just generates magnetic fields the way that an electron generates

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Speaker 1: electric fields. All the magnetic fields in the universe come

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Speaker 1: from the motion of electric charges. For example, atoms have

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Speaker 1: spin and electrons have spin, and these things have charge,

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Speaker 1: and so that generates a magnetic field because moving charges

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Speaker 1: generates a magnetic field. So all the little atoms in

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Speaker 1: that fridge magnet all lined up with their quantum spin

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Speaker 1: generating little tiny magnets with north and south poles. So

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Speaker 1: it comes from the charges. In the end, there's a

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Speaker 1: very deep connection between electricity and magnetism.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And would you say maybe the difference is that

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Speaker 2: electricity or the electric force is of course between charges

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Speaker 2: that are plus or minus, but the magnetism force is

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Speaker 2: maybe the force between like moving electrons. Like if you

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Speaker 2: have a moving electron over here moving in a circle,

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Speaker 2: it's gonna somehow influence other electrons around it to also

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Speaker 2: move in a circle. But yet they have to be

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Speaker 2: moving to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you've put your finger on one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest differences between electricity and magnetism. Mathematically they're

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Speaker 1: structured very similarly. But there are sources of electric charge

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Speaker 1: in the universe electrons, for example, smilar source of magnetic

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Speaker 1: charge in the universe. If they did exist, they would

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Speaker 1: be called magnetic monopoles, be like a particle with a magnetic

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Speaker 1: north or a magnetic south. But we've never seen those things.

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00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: We've only ever seen electrically charged things like electrons generating

439
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: little dipoles like magnet with a north and a south.

440
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: So I think basically what you're saying is that all

441
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 1: magnetism in the universe is actually generated by things with

442
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: electric charge. And that's totally correct as far as we.

443
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 2: Know, so like before we thought it was something else,

444
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 2: but really it's just maybe another part or another aspect

445
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 2: of the electric force.

446
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, Or there are two sides of the same coin, right,

447
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 1: Electricity and magnetism are really one thing. You could say

448
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,840
Speaker 1: it's all electric whatever. You can call it electromagnetism to

449
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 1: reflect that there's two sides of it. But yeah, mathematically

450
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: it makes much more sense to think about it as

451
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: one thing because electric fields cause magnetic fields, magnetic fields

452
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: cause electric fields, and even light is like an oscillation

453
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 1: between electra and magnetic field back and forth. So it

454
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: makes much more sense you click them together.

455
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 2: It's like magnets.

456
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like treating the front of an elephant in

457
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,199
Speaker 1: the back of the elephant is totally separate things, Like

458
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: obviously they're connected, right, It makes much more sense to

459
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: just think about the elephant and not just the two

460
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: separate pieces.

461
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 2: Unless it's like a weird Siamese elephant.

462
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 1: Does that happen for other species?

463
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 2: I don't know, I think so maybe aren't there like

464
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 2: two headed snakes.

465
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna google two headed elephant when we're done here.

466
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 2: Okay, but why wait? So we've talked about some of

467
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 2: the basic forces around those electricity, magnetism, and now let's

468
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: dig into the nuclear forces that govern how things move

469
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,479
Speaker 2: in at the particle level inside of the atom, and

470
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 2: then we'll see if maybe they're all just the same

471
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 2: force underneath it all. So we're gonna explore that be first,

472
00:23:52,119 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: let's take a quick break, all right, we're forcing our

473
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,919
Speaker 2: way into a discussion of the forces and whether or

474
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 2: not they can all be described as one force, either

475
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 2: now or maybe in the past history of the universe.

476
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: Do they have the same origin? All the forces that

477
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 2: we know about, And so we talked about the electric

478
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 2: force and the magnetism force, which turned out to be

479
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 2: the same force kind of right, You sort of see

480
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 2: it now as the same force.

481
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: We definitely see it as one concept. We originally discover

482
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: them sorta separately and then realized that it made much

483
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 1: more sense if you click them together into one idea.

484
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 2: Well, you keep saying it's a concept or an idea,

485
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 2: Is it a force or not?

486
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a force for sure. Electromagnetism is a force. Absolutely,

487
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: it causes things to accelerate, and you can think about

488
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,479
Speaker 1: it either in terms of the electromagnetic field or if

489
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: you like the particle picture, you can think about as

490
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: exchanging virtual photons back and forth to carry that momentum.

491
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 2: Okay, so that's one force electromagnets. Okay. So then how

492
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: did they realize that the electric force and the magnetic

493
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 2: force were the same thing or part of the same force.

494
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 1: This is really an example of like the triumph of

495
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: theoretical physics, because it wasn't an experiment. It wasn't like

496
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: somebody went out and did a bunch of experiments and

497
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: then had an Aha moment when they proved that electricity

498
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 1: and magnetism were the same thing. It was just a

499
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: guy sitting in his study like writing out equations and

500
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 1: noticing patterns. So this is the Scotsman. Maxwell figured out

501
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: a way to write down a bunch of different laws

502
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: like Ampier's law and Gauss's law and Kulamb's law and

503
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: all this stuff describing different parts of electricity and magnetism.

504
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: He figured out a way to write it all in

505
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: very similar way, and he noticed, like, oh my gosh,

506
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about this thing called the electric field and

507
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: talking about that thing called the magnetic field. But the

508
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 1: math is so similar that basically the same equations for

509
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: both things. And that's what led him to the discovery

510
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: that there really are two parts of something larger, but.

511
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: They weren't exactly the same. Right. They didn't describe like

512
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: the like the magnetic the you know, the force. The

513
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,959
Speaker 2: equations for magnetism didn't describe how electric charges move. So

514
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 2: what do you mean they were similar? Like you could

515
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 2: get one from the other, or you could have them

516
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 2: all on the same equations, then they would be okay

517
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: with each other.

518
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 1: What do you mean, Well, the law for like how

519
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: you generate a magnetic field and the law for how

520
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 1: you generate an electric field. You write them down mathematically,

521
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: they look the same. You just like replace electric field

522
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: with magnetic field, and now you have the other law.

523
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: It's like finding replace E for B. But they work

524
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: the same. But that doesn't mean they're the same. If

525
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: you can write them down using the same mathematics, that's

526
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: a strong hint that maybe they are closely related. And

527
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: it's not just that they have the same mathematics, but

528
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 1: they're very closely linked. Like the magnetic field appears in

529
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: the laws for the electric field, because like, changing magnetic

530
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: fields will cause an electric field, and changing electric fields

531
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: cause a magnetic field. So not only is the mathematics

532
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: for each one similar, but they appear in each other's equations.

533
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 2: But then this appearing in each other's equations, didn't they

534
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 2: have to figure that out experimentally?

535
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's something we knew that, Like, for example,

536
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: you could generate a magnetic field by changing electric fields, right,

537
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: and that's something we already knew. But Maxwell actually noticed

538
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: that there was like a flaw in this symmetry. He's like,

539
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: you know, the equations we have are really beautiful and symmetric,

540
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: and they match each other perfectly, except there's a missing piece.

541
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: There's like a hole here, Like if the equations were

542
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: a little bit different, they would be even more beautiful

543
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: and symmetric. So he said, like, hmm, maybe we just

544
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: missed something, and so he corrected one of the existing

545
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: laws was ampire's circuit law, and added a term, the

546
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 1: term that tells you get electric currents from changing magnetic fields.

547
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: And he sort of like predicted that this thing was real,

548
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: and then it went out there and did the experiment

549
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: and found it so like the symmetry of the mathematics

550
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: by itself led him to discover something physical.

551
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: It kind of seems like he was looking at physical

552
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: things that other experimental is found and then he kind

553
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: of pieced it all together from his couch.

554
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. He was sitting in his study and had

555
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: this like moment of insight. Been really incredible. And so

556
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: really what this shows you is that they are part

557
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: of this larger concept that it just makes much more

558
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: sense to treat them together rather than trying to pull

559
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: them apart. It's like taking the Earth and drawing a

560
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 1: dotted line through half of it. Like, yeah, you could

561
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: do that, you could talk about the northern hemisphere in

562
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: the southern hemisphere, but it really makes more sense to

563
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: talk about the whole Earth.

564
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: And so what we thought were two forces were actually

565
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: one force.

566
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, actually we're just one force. And this is really

567
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: important work because not only did it help us unify

568
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: it and like reduce our list of forces down by one,

569
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: but it also was like the groundwork for relativity. You know,

570
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: understanding that light was a wave in electromagnetic fields, and

571
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: the questions about the velocity of that wave is what

572
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: led to attempts to measure the velocity of light in

573
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: different directions, and the whole puzzle of how light moves

574
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: at the same speed for all observers and basically led

575
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: to relativity. So if it hadn't been for Maxwell, we

576
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't have had Einstein's.

577
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: Breakthroughs are you saying Eislein was the flee who stood

578
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: on the shoulder of Maxwell.

579
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: I think he was a giant standing on the shoulders

580
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: of another giant.

581
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: Let's just hold flee, the giant flee standing on the

582
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: shoulders of another giant flee exactly.

583
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: And there's one more really important lesson in this unification

584
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: that we're going to see happen again and again, and

585
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: we hope to see again in the future, and that's

586
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: the unification of the strength of the forces. Like magnetism

587
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: in general feels weaker than electricity, Like electricity just seems

588
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: like a more powerful force. And if you look at

589
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: like the force equation for like how an object is

590
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: affected by electric fields and magnetic fields, they're a little

591
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: bit different. The Lorentz force law that maybe people out

592
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: there know if they're electrical engineers or whatever, it tells

593
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: you that the force on electron depends on the strength

594
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: of the electric field and the force from magnetism also

595
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: depends on the velocity, Like as things move faster, the

596
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: force from magnetism has a stronger effect.

597
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: So what does that tell you about the forces?

598
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: So what that tells you is that as you approach

599
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: the speed of light, these two forces get the same strength.

600
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: Like at very very low speeds, if your velocity is

601
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: close to zero, magnetism has almost no effect, but electricity

602
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: is still very strong. But as you approach the speed

603
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: of light, magnetism grows in strength to be the equal

604
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: of electricity. That's why light is so perfectly balanced between

605
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: electricity and magnetism. The energy flows back and forth because

606
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: the magnetic fields and the electric fields are the same

607
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: strength at the speed of light. And that's the clue

608
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: about the history of the universe, because as we look

609
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: back in time in the universe, things get hotter and denser,

610
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: higher velocity, electricity and magnetism basically become the same thing.

611
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: So at the speed of light, I eat earlier in time,

612
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: these things really were much more unified.

613
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: Wait wait, I thought they were already unified. You're just saying,

614
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: like back in the beginning of the universe, they were

615
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: more balanced with each other. But now that things are cooler,

616
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: like one of them is obviously is stronger than the other.

617
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. You can still unify them today and do

618
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: the same mathematical framework, but they were more in balance

619
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: back in the early universe.

620
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: Everything was better before, back.

621
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: In the good old days when electronics moved at the

622
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: speed of light in.

623
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 2: The Big Bang, didn't have all these kids with their tiktoks.

624
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: But if you think about in terms of history, there's

625
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: like a moment in the universe when basically everything is

626
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: moving at the speed of light, very very early on,

627
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: and back then electricity and magnetism had the same strength.

628
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: But as the universe cools, magnetism gets weaker because it

629
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: depends on velocity and electricity doesn't, and that's when the

630
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: two split. That's the pattern we hope to see in

631
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: the other forces that as we rewind the universe backwards,

632
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: we go deeper into our history, higher speeds, hotter temperatures,

633
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: denser material, maybe things get to have the same equal strength.

634
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: Well, they have the same strength, but that doesn't mean

635
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,479
Speaker 2: they're more or less unified. Like you just said, like

636
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: as things cool, they split, but did they really split

637
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: it's more like they preserved its strength as the universe. Cool,

638
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean that they're like it's only became different.

639
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: It just sort of looked different to us. Yeah, it

640
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 2: looks different, exactly. It's like cracks, like the symmetry is

641
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: broken a little bit. They're not so indistinguishable, or they're

642
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: more distinguishable.

643
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're more interesting thing exactly. And if the forces

644
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: do have the same strength back in the early universe,

645
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: that's a clue that may be.

646
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: I mean they were the same back in the beginning

647
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: of the universe. There is still different or two sides

648
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: of the same coin. There was just you're just saying

649
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 2: that they were equal in magnitude.

650
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were equal in magnitude, and so the differences

651
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: between them were less apparent, and so it's like even

652
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: more arbitrary to draw a dot line between them in

653
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: the early universe. Now it makes a little more sense

654
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: because like, they are two different sides of the same coin,

655
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: and those sides are quite different, right, I mean they

656
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: still click together into one idea, but the sides are

657
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: quite different. But back in the early universe, it sort

658
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: of made no sense. It's sort of like the Earth

659
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: right again, with the hemispheres. If the Earth wasn't spinning,

660
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: you could split it in any way, it wouldn't make

661
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: any difference. Now that the Earth is spinning around exactly

662
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: one axis and no other axis, there is a north

663
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: and a south hemisphere, right, there is a way that

664
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: makes sense to split it up in the same way.

665
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: Electricity magnetism used to be much more balanced, and so

666
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: drawing a dot line between them really made no sense.

667
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: Now that their symmetry is broken between them, it makes

668
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: sense to draw a line between them, even though we

669
00:32:58,920 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: still know they're connected.

670
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 2: I'm not so sure about that analogy. It feels a

671
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: little forced, but I think maybe the overall point is

672
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: that we used to think that we had these two forces,

673
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: electric and magnetic forces, but we figured out they're the same,

674
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: and then it's not the last time it happened, Right,

675
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: Like there was a third force that we thought was

676
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: a separate force, but then we figured out it's also

677
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: part of the same thing.

678
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. The story continues, and again scotsman

679
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: with impressive beards play a big role.

680
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: Is that is that the formula? Is that why you

681
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: have a beard? Yeah?

682
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 1: Plants and moved to Scotland. I'm really not a fan

683
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: of Haggis, so the whole plan is not gonna not

684
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: gonna work out for me. You're not a fan of Haggis,

685
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: but you're a fan of the Higgs. I'll take a

686
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: bowl of hagges fan, but not a Haggis. I'll take

687
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: Higgs for dinner, but not has.

688
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: You know they're made of the same thing, aren't they

689
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: isn't Hags technically made or has to the Higgs boson

690
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 2: in it?

691
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: The Higgs gives Haggis its mass, that's true.

692
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 2: Oh, there you go. And then the Haggis gives your

693
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: stomach its mass and indigestion. It's all in connected. It's

694
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: all part of the same Metichlorian force.

695
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you make dark matter the next day.

696
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: There you go. It's all connected me all right. So

697
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 2: then what's this third force that we ended up unifying

698
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: with the other two.

699
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: So the next force on the list is the weak

700
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: nuclear force. The weak nuclear force is the one we

701
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,439
Speaker 1: think about in terms of the like radioactive decay, where

702
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: the proton turns into a neutron, for example, and shoots

703
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: off an anti electron, or when uranium cracks open all

704
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: of these things. This is due to the weak nuclear force.

705
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: Well, what do you mean? How is it a force?

706
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 3: Like?

707
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 2: What's it pushing or pulling?

708
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: So some particles out there have electric charge and they're

709
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: pushed and pulled by electric fields made by other particles

710
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: with electric charges, but not everything out there does have

711
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: an electric charge, like neutrinos don't have electric charge. But

712
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: every particle out there has weak charges. This is like

713
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: another label you can put on a particle. There's actually

714
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: two different kinds of weak charges. It's not a one number,

715
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: it's two numbers you need to describe the weak force.

716
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,439
Speaker 1: Every particle has this pair of weak charges that create

717
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: these weak fields, and these weak fields push and pull

718
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: on other particles.

719
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: Meaning like if I'm a neutrino and I'm flying through space,

720
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,919
Speaker 2: I don't have an electric charge, so I don't feel

721
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 2: the electric or magnetic forces. But if I come near

722
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: maybe another neutrino or another kind of particle that does

723
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: feel the weak force, what's going to happen? Is it

724
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 2: going to pull me in? Is it gonna impart some

725
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: velosophy on me, repel me, or track me? Or is

726
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: it something different? Like how is it involved in decay?

727
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: Of particles. So the weak force can both push and pull,

728
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: and it's much more complicated than electricity because it has

729
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: two charges, so you have to know like a combination

730
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: of those two charges. We did a whole podcast episode

731
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: about whether the weak force pushes or pulls. The answer

732
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: is it depends, but it can do both. And so

733
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: the weak field is much more complicated than the electromagnetic

734
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: field in that way, which is very simple. So it

735
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: can do both push and pull. And the fascinating thing

736
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: is that no particle escapes this field. Not every particle

737
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 1: fields the strong force we'll talk about later, or electromagnetic force,

738
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: but every particle feels the weak force as far as

739
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: we know. Dark matter, if it's a particle, does escape

740
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: the weak force, but every particle we've discovered feels the

741
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: weak force. And ther other question was about radioactive decay,

742
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: like how is the weak force exactly involved in radioactive decay?

743
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: And the answer there involves like the particles that we

744
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: think about in terms of the weak force. For electromagnetism,

745
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 1: we think about in terms of these fields, or sometimes

746
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: we think about those fields as virtual photons like electrons

747
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: or exchanging momentum using virtual photons we have a whole

748
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: episode about how that happens that came out recently. In

749
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: terms of the weak field, we have three different particles.

750
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: There's two W particles that actually have electric charge of

751
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: their own, and the Z and so particles can decay

752
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: into other particles by giving off a W or giving

753
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: off a Z. When that happens, we say that the

754
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 1: weak force is responsible. So, for example, if an upquark

755
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: gives off a W boson becomes a downquark, and that's

756
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: what needs to happen for a neutron to decay into

757
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: a proton, then we say the weak force has decayed

758
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 1: that neutron into a proton.

759
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: I feel like you're saying a lot of words. I

760
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: wonder if some of our listeners are getting lost. I

761
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 2: guess you're saying, like, maybe the weak force isn't a

762
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: force in the same way that we are used to

763
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: it for electric and magnetic forces. But you see it

764
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 2: mathematically when things the k or they transform at the

765
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 2: quantum particle level from one thing to another. Maybe you

766
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: see these other particles popping into existence.

767
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: Well, it definitely is a force. It can push and pull,

768
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: but was it pulling and pushing? It can do it

769
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: for any particle. For example, a neutrino passing through a wall.

770
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: It can get bounced off by an electron or by

771
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 1: something in the nucleus using the weak force, in fact,

772
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: only using the weak force, because the neutrino doesn't feel

773
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: the electromagnetic force.

774
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: Right, we got that. But when you say it's involved

775
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 2: in the k what is it pulling or pushing?

776
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: So forces don't just push and pull, right, These are

777
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 1: interactions between particles that can also transform those particles.

778
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: Well, so that's a different concept. So you're saying a

779
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 2: force isn't just about pushing and pulling, it's also about transforming.

780
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: Forces are fields that fill the universe or if you like,

781
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: virtual particles, and they also allow particles to transform from

782
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: one kind into another. For example, you can have an

783
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: electron and a positron annihilate themselves turn into a photon,

784
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: and that photon can turn into like a muon and

785
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: an anti muon. Right, that's using the photon, so it's

786
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: using the electromagnetic field. Means the energy of those two

787
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: particles gets dumped into electromagnetic field and then back out

788
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: as in other particles. Again, that's an example of like

789
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: converting one kind of particle into another using the electromagnetic field.

790
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 2: Oh, I see, you're saying the weak force can push

791
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 2: and pull things, but it can also kind of act

792
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: like a little like placeholder for energy between particles as

793
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: they transform between things.

794
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: I guess a force turns out to just be like

795
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: a feature of a field. Fields can apply forces too particles,

796
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: but it's not all that they do. You know, like

797
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: your bank will change money, but it also like lends

798
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: it out and does all sorts of other stuff. So

799
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: fields are more complicated than just pushing and pulling on particles.

800
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: The forces are features of those fields, but those fields

801
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: can do lots of other stuff to like transform particles

802
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: and let them interact.

803
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 2: So you're saying, like the weak force is really like

804
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: let's just think about it as a field. They can

805
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 2: also push and pull, yes, okay, all right. And then

806
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: later we found out that the weak force is actually

807
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 2: part of the electromagnetic force exactly.

808
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: And this is the story of Peter Higgs in a

809
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: way that's like kind of amazingly and oddly parallel to

810
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: what happened with Maxwell. That Peter Higgs actually doesn't have

811
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: a beard. I lied. Maxwell is an impressive beard, But

812
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: Peter Higgs, Yeah, and I guess actually, technically everybody has

813
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: a beard. Even if you just shaved, you have a

814
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: tiny little beard, right.

815
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 2: I think you mean maybe half the population gets beard.

816
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

817
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: I think you're missing Yes, I think you're missing a

818
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 2: lot of people here.

819
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 1: So he was looking at electromagnetism and the weak force

820
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: and he was trying to do the same thing that

821
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,479
Speaker 1: Maxwell did. He's like, can I put these together into

822
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: a larger mathematical framework? Can I click all these complicated

823
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: feels for the weak force and electromagnetism together to make

824
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 1: a bigger idea?

825
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 2: All right? And apparently he was able to do that.

826
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 2: And now we've reduced the number of forces even more,

827
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: And so can we keep doing that? Can we unify

828
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: all of the things we see as forces in the

829
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: universe as one, including maybe gravity question markuee. And so

830
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: let's dig into this big question of unification. But first

831
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 2: let's take another quick break. All right, we're talking about

832
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 2: unifying all the forces in the universe, and it seems

833
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 2: like physicists are doing pretty good. Like we started with

834
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 2: four apparent forces and now we're down to two apparent forces.

835
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 2: Because you unified the electric magnetic forces into one, and

836
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 2: then you modified those two in with the weak force

837
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 2: to get the electroweak force.

838
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's right. Higgs connected electromagnetism and the weak

839
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: force by putting them together into a larger idea, and

840
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: in the same way that like when Maxwell tried to

841
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: do that with electricity and magnetism, he noticed a missing

842
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: piece and then went out and found that it was

843
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: actually real out there in the universe. For Higgs, what

844
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 1: he noticed was it was a missing particle, like these

845
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: two forces didn't actually click together perfectly because you know,

846
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 1: like the W and the Z, these particles that come

847
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 1: from these forces, they're very very heavy, and the photon

848
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: has no mass, so he's a little bit of trouble

849
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 1: fitting them together, which is why he had to add

850
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: a piece, the Higgs boson, and then later we discovered it.

851
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: So it's another example of like mathematics leading us to

852
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: a clearer picture of the physical universe, which is super fascinating.

853
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: And it's also a continuation of that same story we

854
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: were telling earlier about how things come together or are

855
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: more balanced at higher energies because the weak force, why

856
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: is it so weak after all? It's weak because the

857
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: particles that transmitted this field, that carry it is very massive.

858
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: These particles, the W and the Z, are super duper heavy.

859
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 1: They weigh like eighty or ninety times the mass of

860
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: a proton, which is what makes the force weak.

861
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: Right, which is kind of counterintuitive, right, Like why if

862
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: the particles of it are so massive, why of force?

863
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: Week? You can think about it, like, it takes a

864
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: lot more energy to get this field into play. You

865
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 1: have to create the wiggles in this field. Takes more

866
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: energy because the field itself has more mass, Like it's bigger,

867
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: so it's lazier. Yeah, it's bigger, and so it's lazier exactly.

868
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: But what happens if you dump a lot of energy

869
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 1: into this field, Like what happens if everything is moving

870
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: at nearly the speed of light, Then it doesn't really

871
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: matter anymore that the W and the Z have mass

872
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: because you have so much energy, it's like irrelevant, you know.

873
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 1: It's like if you're a billionaire, then paying your traffic

874
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: tickets doesn't really matter, whereas if you're a normal person,

875
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: paying your traffic tickets can be really expensive. But billionaires

876
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: will just park anywhere because ninety bucks means nothing to them.

877
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: So back in the early universe, when there's lots of

878
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: energy floating around, you couldn't tell the difference between the

879
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: strength of the electromagnetic force and the strength of the

880
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: weak force that had the same strength back then.

881
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: I think what you're saying is like to activate the

882
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 2: weak force, you need a lot of energy, and so

883
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 2: that's why it tweak. It's like it takes so much

884
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: energy you hardly ever see it, right, Like two particles

885
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: are like, now, this is too much work to interact

886
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: through the weak force, forget about it. But you're saying,

887
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: like me, at the beginning of the universe, things were

888
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 2: so hot and so crazy that like the we force

889
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: got activated all the time, which means that it was

890
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 2: actually not a week exactly.

891
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: And so that helps us bring these things together. Like

892
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: as you run time back together, magnetism joins with electricity

893
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: to have the same strength keep running time backwards. Then

894
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: the weak force joins with electromagnetism. Now those three all

895
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: have the same strength. So this picture of like the

896
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: forces merging together as you rewind time or if you

897
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: think about it forwards, like as the universe cools, it

898
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: sort of like crystallizes and breaks the symmetries, and these

899
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: things crack out in different ways.

900
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: But again it's conceptual because they don't really break apart, right, Like,

901
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: they're still the same and there's still the same math equations.

902
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: They just start behaving differently.

903
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. They're not like getting a divorce or anything.

904
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, it's not like they're transforming into something else.

905
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 2: It's just like the weak force gets lazier, basically.

906
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. But there's sort of analogous to phase transitions. Like

907
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 1: water is water is water, but sometimes it acts like

908
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: a solid, and sometimes it acts like a liquid and

909
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 1: sometimes like a gas. So in different temperatures, use different

910
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: rules to describe them, and so as the temperature of

911
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 1: the universe cranks up, use different laws to describe the

912
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: physics that's happening because there are different phases there.

913
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 2: But ultimately you can use the same equations for the weak,

914
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 2: the electric and magnetic force. It's you're saying, like, there

915
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:44,919
Speaker 2: now there's three sides of the same coin.

916
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, And so now we'd like to continue that

917
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: program and also add the strong force, Like wouldn't it

918
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: be awesome if we showed that all these things are

919
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: just different sides of the same four sided coin or

920
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: something that's.

921
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 2: Pretty the coin there. So let me let's reach out

922
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 2: for listeners. What is the strong force?

923
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the strong force is the force between quarks,

924
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: for example. And the strong force, like the other forces,

925
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: acts between things that have its kind of charge. Every

926
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: kind of force has its own charge. Electric forces are

927
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: things that happen between things with electric charge. Weak forces

928
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: are things that happen between particles that have the special

929
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: weak charges. And there is also a strong force with

930
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: its own strong charge. And some particles, quarks, have this

931
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: strong charge we call it color, and other particles like

932
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: electrons and muons and neutrinos don't, so they don't feel

933
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: the strong force. And the strong force is crucial to

934
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: our universe. It's what binds quarks together to make protons

935
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: and to make neutrons and the building blocks of the

936
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 1: nucleus of the atom.

937
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 2: And that's where it's pushing and pulling. It's it's basically

938
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 2: pulling the quarks together, or like if you try to

939
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: separate to quarks, that's the force that keeps them stuck.

940
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, it's what binds quarks together. And we think

941
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: back in the very early universe, there was so much

942
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: energy that quarks were flying around free. We call that

943
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: the quark glue on plasma. But these days, when things

944
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: are pretty distant and cold, everything is stuck together. The

945
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: quarks don't have enough energy to escape those bonds. The

946
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: strong force is very very powerful.

947
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 2: Ideally, or to keep simplifying things, you want to show

948
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: that the strong force is actually also part of the

949
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 2: lecture weak force exactly.

950
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: That would be great. Nobody's figured out how to do

951
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: that yet, Like the game that Maxwell and Higgs played

952
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: and we're successful at trying to put these things together

953
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: into a larger mathematical structure hasn't worked so far. Like

954
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: people have tried it and they've jammed them together, but

955
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 1: it's not really pretty. And the extra bits that it predicts,

956
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: we haven't seen those yet, in the same way that

957
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 1: we saw the Higgs boson or saw the displacement current.

958
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 2: Well, what do you mean it's not pretty? What happens?

959
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 2: You get ugly equations?

960
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: You get ugly equations. Yeah, what we're looking for is

961
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 1: the kind of symmetry we saw with electromagnetism, Like, oh, look,

962
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: these equations if you write them in this way, they're symmetric,

963
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: it's the same. You can replace electric fields and magnetic

964
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,959
Speaker 1: fields the equations of the same or with the weak force.

965
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: You put them in this larger structure of group theory.

966
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: We show you can rotate one equation into another equation,

967
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: and so the strong force has its own symmetry within it,

968
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 1: but we can't really click that symmetry together with the

969
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: other symmetries to make it into like some larger machine

970
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 1: where the gears all rotate nicely and meshed together.

971
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,760
Speaker 2: Well, when you mixed electric and magnetic forces, you figured

972
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: out that there's really just electric charge. When you mix

973
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: the weak force in that you also have to get

974
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 2: rid of weak charge or that's still around.

975
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: No, that's still around. And you know, we could live

976
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: in a universe with magnetic charge that's not a product

977
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: of the unification. The unification allows for them to be

978
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: magnetic charge. It just so happens to that we've never

979
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: seen one in our universe. It's a mystery. And why

980
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 1: there are no magnetic monopoles. You don't have to give

981
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: up a charge when you unify.

982
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 2: And so so now the electric weak force, it's like

983
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: this one equation one force, but it's at the same

984
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 2: quantum field. Different fields, but they're all somehow connected through

985
00:47:58,680 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 2: the equations.

986
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: They're different fields the same way you can talk about

987
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: an electric field and magnetic field. You can still talk

988
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: about the field of the W and the Z, but

989
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 1: there's a symmetry between them. They're differently part of one

990
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 1: larger thing, and as you rewind the universe, their strength

991
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: balances together. And one mystery about the strong force is

992
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: that as you rewind time and make things hotter and denser,

993
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: the strong force doesn't get to be the same strength

994
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 1: as electricity and magnetism and the weak force. It's still different.

995
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: Those two lines sort of don't cross as you go

996
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: back to the early universe, which the mystery is sort

997
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: of like a problem for unifying them.

998
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 2: Now, I'm wondering if, like the lack of unification here

999
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: with the strong force, does it mean that the strong

1000
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: force is totally independent of the other forces. Part of

1001
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: the reason you could mix the other two into one

1002
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 2: equation was that they're all sort of, I guess, depend

1003
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: on each other, right intertwined.

1004
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: They were all intertwined, and we definitely show that they're

1005
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: all part of the same sort of larger structure. What

1006
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: we'd like to do is do the same thing with

1007
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,320
Speaker 1: a strong force, but we don't know, Like maybe it

1008
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: really is just its own thing and it comes from

1009
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 1: somewhere else, and the universe has a couple of things

1010
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 1: to it. Right. The whole assumption that you can describe

1011
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: everything in terms of one force, well, that is an assumption, right,

1012
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: it would be, so what are pretty But it might

1013
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: be that there are two forces in the universe, the

1014
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: strong force and the electroweak force, and they sort of

1015
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: like pushing question PARKI and the question mark these stuff.

1016
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: But there is one really other tantalizing clue, which is

1017
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 1: if you add a bunch more particles particles we call

1018
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 1: supersymmetric particles, ones that are partners of our current particles,

1019
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: that changes the way all these forces behave and it

1020
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 1: makes it so that if you do rewind time and

1021
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: heat up the universe, that the strong force and the

1022
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: electroweak force do end up at the same strength. So

1023
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 1: that's sort of like a clue. It makes people feel like,

1024
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: oh wait, maybe there's two problems here that solve each other,

1025
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 1: you know, like maybe supersymmetry is real. These particles do exist,

1026
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: and they help unify the forces early on in the

1027
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: history of the universe. So far, we haven't seen any

1028
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: of those super symmetric particles, which has been kind of

1029
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: a disappointment, but it would have been awesome because it

1030
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:58,320
Speaker 1: would have helped us unify the strong force with the

1031
00:49:58,400 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: other forces.

1032
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 2: These supersymmetric particles that you just mentioned, they were never real.

1033
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 2: You just sort of like invented them and you try

1034
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: to make them work, but they you never saw them

1035
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: in a collider or anything.

1036
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: We don't know if they're real. They're just an idea,

1037
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,879
Speaker 1: and if they exist, they answer all sorts of other

1038
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 1: questions about the nature of the universe, etc. That particle

1039
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: physicists are interested in. But they also change the way

1040
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: the strong force behaves at high energy in a way

1041
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: that make it to have the same strength as the

1042
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: electroweak force. That's just like an added bonus. So we

1043
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: don't know if they exist, but if they do, then

1044
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 1: they help unify the forces. But we haven't seen them yet, right,

1045
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: They've been searching for like decades. Yep, we haven't seen

1046
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,399
Speaker 1: any of them. Maybe they're just too heavy, or maybe

1047
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: they don't exist. We don't know. I guess maybe the

1048
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: larger question is, like why is it important for them

1049
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: to be the same magnitude, Like why can't you just

1050
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: have a one big one and a little one, or

1051
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 1: why do they all have to be, you know, the

1052
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,760
Speaker 1: same strength. They don't have to be the same strength.

1053
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: But that's part of the simplification. Like how many numbers

1054
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: do you need to describe the universe? Well, it's sort

1055
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: of cool if you need numbers. You only need one

1056
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: number to describe the electro weak force, Like the very

1057
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 1: strength of the parts of the electro weak force can

1058
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: all be explained with how the universe cooled and cracked,

1059
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 1: But you only need one number to define its strength.

1060
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 2: Wait, what do you mean only one number? Like at

1061
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 2: the beginning of the universe the forces were indistinguishable.

1062
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 1: Well, they were part of a larger thing, but you

1063
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: only need one number to descrive its strength because they

1064
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: were in balance, right, Like magnetism and electricity had the

1065
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: same strength at the speed of light. You don't need

1066
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: separate numbers for them, And the same thing with the

1067
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 1: weak force, so you could still have two numbers. Like

1068
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 1: that's something I guess you know what I mean? Like

1069
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,240
Speaker 1: did something happen in these conditions that make them lose

1070
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: a degree of freedom. Yeah, that's exactly the right way

1071
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 1: to think about it. That like you had this unification

1072
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: and then it cracked and then broke into two, and

1073
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: then you have another degree of freedom. You sort of

1074
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: gain a degree of freedom as the universe cools and

1075
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: the symmetry is broken between.

1076
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 2: Them, whereas before maybe they were act together.

1077
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: It's maybe more what you mean. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1078
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 2: You know the universe, these forces were all sort of

1079
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 2: in sync.

1080
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: Exactly, And we don't think it's coincidence that the strength

1081
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: of these forces was the same number back then. They're

1082
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: parts of the same thing. To have the same strength,

1083
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem like a coincidence, Right, You don't need

1084
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: two numbers to describe one phenomena, especially if the numbers

1085
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: are equal.

1086
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 5: Now.

1087
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 2: In terms of making the ultimate progress, which is like

1088
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,080
Speaker 2: finding out that even gravity is part of these forces,

1089
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 2: I think scientists are maybe envisioning a time in the universe,

1090
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 2: maybe very close to the big Bag, where maybe even

1091
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 2: gravity was part of these forces.

1092
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe we don't know, and it's very speculative because

1093
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: we haven't even unified the strong force with electroweek. But

1094
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: the idea is that maybe back when the universe was

1095
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: so hot and so dense that even gravity, which is

1096
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: crazy weak, was as powerful as these other forces. That

1097
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: maybe it was all just one. And that's the you know,

1098
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:55,240
Speaker 1: very speculative theory of quantum gravity or theory of everything

1099
00:52:55,560 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: combines the strong force, electroweak and gravity together. But that's

1100
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: like double question, markie, I see.

1101
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 2: So what you're saying like maybe a long time ago,

1102
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 2: in a galaxy far far away, there was only the force.

1103
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 2: Is that kind of what you're say as a physicists.

1104
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: That's a beautiful idea. We don't know if it's true.

1105
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: We've seen the first two chapters, like electricity and magnetism

1106
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 1: join together to make electric magnetism, the weak force joins

1107
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: to make electra week. We don't know if the next

1108
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: season strong force will unify and if in the sequels,

1109
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: you know, gravity comes in to link up together and.

1110
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 2: With the new hope they joined electric and magnetic forces.

1111
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 2: Then the Empire strikes back was the weak force joining

1112
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 2: and then maybe we're still waiting for the return of

1113
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 2: the Jedi engineers. Yeah, exactly, unify the rest together.

1114
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: Return of quantum gravity, exactly. And it might be that

1115
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: back in the early universe there was only one force

1116
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: and then it cracked as the universe cooled and passed

1117
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 1: through the different phases, or maybe it didn't, maybe there

1118
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: were multiple forces to begin with. We don't know.

1119
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 2: Well, that would mean that even today, they're all still

1120
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 2: all the same force. They're just you know, acting at

1121
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:08,240
Speaker 2: different levels.

1122
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: Kind of yeah, exactly, they all respond differently to the

1123
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: universe cooling. But it'd be beautiful we can figure out

1124
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: a way to describe them all in terms of one force. Absolutely.

1125
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 2: So what's needed right now more experiments or more theory

1126
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: or both.

1127
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: Either we're desperate, like either we need new ideas, like

1128
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 1: new mathematical ways and looking at what we've already seen,

1129
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 1: the patterns that we've described, or we need new experiments

1130
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: to show us more of the patterns so we can

1131
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: get better ideas. We don't know which way is the

1132
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: path forward right now, and in the history of physics

1133
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: is sort of leapfrogged each other. Experimentalists discover a bunch

1134
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: of new particles and nobody understands. Theorists fit them together

1135
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: into a new idea and then predict new stuff. Experimentalists

1136
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 1: discover some more stuff. It's sort of gone back and

1137
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: forth right now, We don't know which direction is the

1138
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 1: best to make progress.

1139
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 2: It does sound a little desperate, but I wish you

1140
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 2: the best of luck physicists, or as they say, may

1141
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,399
Speaker 2: the force be with you, May the force be won

1142
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 2: made the funds keep flowing. All right? Well, another interesting

1143
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 2: conversation about how you know, little by little we make

1144
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 2: progress and making sense of the universe, simplifying the equations,

1145
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: making them all work within the same framework. And it

1146
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 2: seems like we've made a lot of progress. But it

1147
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 2: sounds like maybe we've hit sort of a brick wall

1148
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: for now, and maybe you just need to force yourself

1149
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: through it.

1150
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: We need some clever fleas to sit on our shoulders.

1151
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 2: That's right, you just need bigger fleas.

1152
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:32,760
Speaker 1: I'll put them my next grand proposal.

1153
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:38,760
Speaker 2: There you go, make it a clever acronym, Force Leapton's

1154
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 2: Engineering Astronomy.

1155
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: Done.

1156
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

1157
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 2: joining us, See you next time.

1158
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social

1159
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 1: media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter,

1160
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: disc Word, Insta, and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and

1161
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: remember that Daniel and Jorge explain the universe is a

1162
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

1163
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1164
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 1: favorite shows.