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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Welcome back to another episode of Wide Open.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Ashelyn Harris. Ah, what have I been

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Speaker 1: doing lately. I've been traveling a ton. I've kind of

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Speaker 1: gone on this little travel tour in the last few weeks.

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Speaker 1: I've been to South Africa for a safari. I've been

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Speaker 1: to Florida to see my family. I've been to la

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Speaker 1: to see my friends and to work, and now I

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Speaker 1: am back in New York to spend some time building

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Speaker 1: what the next few months are going to look like.

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Speaker 1: I'm really looking to Women's History Month and I have

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Speaker 1: a lot of things planned and I'm speaking a lot

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Speaker 1: at different conferences and summits about the progress of women

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Speaker 1: and business and sports, so I'm looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: I'm always so inspired by the women in my circle,

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Speaker 1: and it's important to choose wisely because a lot of

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Speaker 1: the people I choose to surround myself are really serve,

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Speaker 1: you know, the community, and serving women and their family.

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Speaker 1: And I want to make sure that those type of

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Speaker 1: principles are always instilled in my children and the way

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Speaker 1: I move, and those things are important to me. The

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Speaker 1: political climate clearly has been really difficult lately. I mean

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Speaker 1: for everyone but especially women, especially you know, queer people.

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Speaker 1: There's just so many things at stake. Women's body autonomy

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Speaker 1: is at risk, your right to choose what you want

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Speaker 1: to do with your body and how you move in

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Speaker 1: the world. All of these things right now are at

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Speaker 1: stake and in jeopardy, and it's so important for us

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Speaker 1: as women, who are such powerful cultural leaders with big voices,

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Speaker 1: to really fight this. And we know how powerful we are,

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Speaker 1: and that's why we're trying to be silenced at every turn,

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Speaker 1: and it's our job to not get tired. We have

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Speaker 1: been here before. We have to roll our sleeves up

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Speaker 1: because we all have younger kids who are looking up

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Speaker 1: to us to do the right thing. Silence is not

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Speaker 1: going to push us forward. I really believe this, genuinely.

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Speaker 1: The only people right now who are going to save

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Speaker 1: our democracy in this country are women, and we have

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Speaker 1: to get mad and we have to act, and we

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Speaker 1: have to have our voices heard. I'm so excited to

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Speaker 1: talk to Toronto Burke because she just has lived such

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Speaker 1: a rich life of service. She chooses to do it

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Speaker 1: over and over and over again, and just sharing oxygen

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Speaker 1: in space with her is motivating to continue to fight

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Speaker 1: and continue to do right by women and to continue

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Speaker 1: to use your platform to speak on things that matter.

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Speaker 1: And right now we need her voice more than ever,

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Speaker 1: so being able to talk to her about what she's

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Speaker 1: been able to do for me, it's an educational piece.

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Speaker 1: It's an infectious piece to inspire me to continue doing

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Speaker 1: what I'm doing. But the fight is never over, and

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Speaker 1: she embodies that and continues to show up, and it's powerful.

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Speaker 1: It's so powerful. Today's guest is someone whose name carries weight,

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Speaker 1: not because she asks for it, but because the world

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Speaker 1: needed what she had to say. Toronto. Burke is the

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Speaker 1: founder of the Me Too movement, But more importantly, she's

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Speaker 1: a listener, a protector, a truth teller, and a black

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Speaker 1: woman who has spent her life standing in the fire

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Speaker 1: so others wouldn't have to stand alone. Before me Too

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Speaker 1: became a global reckoning, it was a quiet offering, two

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Speaker 1: words meant to say, I see you, I believe you,

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Speaker 1: and you are not alone. And like so many movements

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Speaker 1: led by black women, it was born from care, from community,

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Speaker 1: and from lived experiences, long before it was ever recognized

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Speaker 1: by power. Today we're talking about her life, the real

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Speaker 1: origins of the Me Too movement, the cost of leading

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Speaker 1: change as a black woman, and the backlash that often

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Speaker 1: follows bravery in the moment we're living right now, where

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Speaker 1: women's rights feel fragile, our voices are being challenged again,

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Speaker 1: but we're also talking about hope, about healing, about art,

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Speaker 1: about what keeps her going and who inspires her today.

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Speaker 1: This conversation is honest. It can be heavy at times,

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Speaker 1: but it is so so necessary. This is Toronto, Burke,

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Speaker 1: and this is wide open. I was sobbing this morning,

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Speaker 1: So you probably look a lot better than I do,

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Speaker 1: but I feel that, and I like, I lean into that,

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Speaker 1: and I know, I mean, I'm I adopted two children,

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Speaker 1: a black son and a brown mixed little girl, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's the scariest thing for me right now. When

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Speaker 1: you talk about protection, strategy, all of these things, it's

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Speaker 1: really really jarring because I'm like, I will never understand

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Speaker 1: what they're gonna have to go through, but I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have to protect them as their mom. So I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have to figure it out, and I'm gonna have to

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Speaker 1: have really really great people around me who get it

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Speaker 1: and can help me do this and keep them safe

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Speaker 1: and teach them the things that need to be taught,

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Speaker 1: and so it's it's like, you know, all of these

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Speaker 1: things just sometimes feel a little bit more heavy because

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Speaker 1: I it's scary and there's a lot of responsibility that

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Speaker 1: comes with that.

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Speaker 2: No, there is. I think the part for me, though,

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Speaker 2: that's been both interesting and heartening to watch is that

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Speaker 2: it's watching this thing backfire, like this evil is not sustainable.

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Speaker 2: I've been saying that for years and years and years.

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Speaker 2: It's not it's not even about this administration like evil.

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Speaker 2: We've seen all kinds of evil throughout time, and we've

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Speaker 2: seen the counterbalance to that and how it's been, how

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Speaker 2: it's been responded to, and the worse it is, the

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Speaker 2: more cruel people get, the less sustainable it is. And

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Speaker 2: we are as a society, we're smarter, we're more advanced,

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Speaker 2: we're more learned, you were thinking around some things and

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Speaker 2: so and so as they are becoming more cruel, there

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Speaker 2: is a way that it is making us as society,

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Speaker 2: right like as cultures, particularly in America, as Americans, because

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Speaker 2: it's I mean, it's all kind of evil happened, but

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Speaker 2: just thinking about this country for a moment, it's making

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Speaker 2: people be like, I don't that's not what I want. That,

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Speaker 2: that's not what I want. This is not even I

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Speaker 2: may not even like black folks for real or real,

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Speaker 2: but now I'm trying to figure out why, because this

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Speaker 2: is weird. I don't I don't like immigrants or Mexicans

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Speaker 2: or whatever the thing is. But watching this level of cruelty,

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Speaker 2: I think it's for some and hopefully it'll keep being,

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Speaker 2: It'll keep growing and growing for more. It's like people

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Speaker 2: stop doing some self examination, yes, or at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, self preservation, right, because you may hate

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Speaker 2: an immigrant, I think you hate an immigrant or a

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Speaker 2: queer person or whatever the marginalized group is until you

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Speaker 2: stay in the shoulder to shoulder with them and it's

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Speaker 2: really about how you gonna eat, how you're gonna survive.

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Speaker 2: That changes your perspective a little bit when you have

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Speaker 2: to fight with somebody for the same basic human needs exactly,

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Speaker 2: so they're gonna keep pushing it to the wrong direction.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, I feel like, no, no, no, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: also you know the thing that maybe it is the

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Speaker 1: importance of watching it burn to the ground so we

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Speaker 1: can build it back up to the way like it

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Speaker 1: should have been a long time ago and how long

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Speaker 1: that takes is we've got to be ready for the

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Speaker 1: long haul and up for it and roll our sleeves

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Speaker 1: up and not be desensitized to all the things and

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Speaker 1: turn our back and say, well it's not me. Well

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Speaker 1: it's if it can happen to her, it can happen

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Speaker 1: to fucking anyone.

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Speaker 2: That's the strategy of it all. That's what I'm saying, Like,

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Speaker 2: we have to be thinking strategically, not trying all of

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Speaker 2: these ways that people are like I want to go.

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Speaker 2: Even before this was in I want to say, about

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Speaker 2: two years ago, so this was not even in this administration,

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Speaker 2: I had this real come to Jesus moment, if you will,

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Speaker 2: this awakening around I was so many things that happened

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Speaker 2: in my life I had. I had tremendous loss, like

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Speaker 2: one death after another after another, and and it was

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Speaker 2: all this happened in the world. What have you? And

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Speaker 2: I remember turning to my girlfriend, I've been praying all

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Speaker 2: of this time when I've been when I've been thinking

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Speaker 2: about you know what my prayers are, how my focus

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Speaker 2: is I want to get up and saying I want

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Speaker 2: to get back, and we just can just get back

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Speaker 2: if we could just get back to a central place

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Speaker 2: right where where it's not so bad, then maybe that

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Speaker 2: will energize me to work more. And I woke I

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Speaker 2: literally woke up one day and I was like, there's

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Speaker 2: no there's no back.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: This is this is the this is what survival. Being

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Speaker 2: a survivor teaches you and I and I sometimes separate

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Speaker 2: that from the rest of my life, and until I

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Speaker 2: converted those things, I'm like, Oh, I have to lean

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Speaker 2: into whatever I am. We are in survival mode, right, Yes,

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Speaker 2: all of us are surviving collectively, so we.

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Speaker 1: Have better than others.

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Speaker 2: Some better than others, But that's the point, right, Some

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Speaker 2: better than others because they've been through some shit. Excuse me,

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Speaker 2: they've been through things, right, Oh yes, and so oh

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Speaker 2: when I think about what I've actually been through as

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Speaker 2: an individual in my life and what it took for

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Speaker 2: me to survive, it's the same thing that it's gonna

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Speaker 2: take for me to survive. It's gonna say the same

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Speaker 2: things it's gonna take for us to survive. And some

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Speaker 2: of that looks like realizing that I will never be

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Speaker 2: that person. I'm never gonna who I was before I

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Speaker 2: was assaulted, who I was before the abuse. I'm never

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Speaker 2: gonna be that person again. I'm never gonna be in

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Speaker 2: that moment in time either. But what I left there,

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Speaker 2: I may have left their left that person behind, but

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Speaker 2: the foundation of who I am is still here. And

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Speaker 2: I think that humanity that we were just talking about

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Speaker 2: the things that are pushing people together is the foundation

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Speaker 2: of what's there to build back from. But all of

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Speaker 2: stuff in the middle, all the bullshit that we filled

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Speaker 2: our bodies and our minds and our hearts with, a

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Speaker 2: lot of that has to go. And it's not about

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Speaker 2: what party you in, because there's a lot of crazy

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Speaker 2: liberal people who need to readjust and rethink and do

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Speaker 2: some self assessment, and certainly people who are far right.

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Speaker 2: Whatever your ideology is, everybody needs to do some reassessment

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Speaker 2: and think about how we build back better.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I agree, self reflection will definitely be key. Stay tuned.

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Speaker 1: I'll be back in just a moment after this brief

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Speaker 1: message from our sponsors. And with that, I do want

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Speaker 1: to dive in because I think everyone you know, everyone

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Speaker 1: knows you for the Me Too movement. I want to

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Speaker 1: peel back some layers because I do you know, clearly

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Speaker 1: I took a deep dive in your life. And I've

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Speaker 1: been following you for quite some time, and you've given

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Speaker 1: hope to so many people and permission and safety and

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Speaker 1: to not feel alone. But there's so much to your

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Speaker 1: story before that. You've been advocating for twenty five plus

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Speaker 1: years on all the justice that goes on in marginalized communities, women,

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Speaker 1: you name it. And I'm curious, before this movement there

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Speaker 1: was you. Who was that young girl? What shaped your

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Speaker 1: sense of justice and voice early on for you to

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Speaker 1: want to do this?

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Speaker 2: You know, I come from a kind of justice minded family.

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Speaker 2: My grandfather was a Garvy Heite. He was a meaning

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Speaker 2: he for people who don't know what that means. He

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Speaker 2: you know, he believed in the teachings of Marcus Mosiah Garvey.

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Speaker 2: He believed in black people and the resilience and brilliance

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Speaker 2: and beauty of what it is to be black in

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Speaker 2: America and in the world. And he was really clear

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Speaker 2: about me having that same connection and that same knowing.

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Speaker 2: He raised my mom that way, so my mom had it,

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Speaker 2: and so I got this really strong foundation early on.

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Speaker 2: But I also think this when I you know, I

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Speaker 2: guess asked this question a lot, and I think there's

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Speaker 2: a part of me that was born with a real

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Speaker 2: strong reaction to injustice on any level, right, not just

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Speaker 2: social justice, but like that's not fair to that person.

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Speaker 2: I have a really strong reaction to that. So I

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Speaker 2: think some of that is just innate. And then having

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Speaker 2: my family really ground me in history and culture and

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Speaker 2: really deep love and connection and community. I grew up

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Speaker 2: in a very tight knit community as well, where I

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Speaker 2: watched people take care of each other. Where my mom

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Speaker 2: and my dad, my stepdad, they were pillars in that way,

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Speaker 2: not a lot of money, but very strong. Like my

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Speaker 2: dad was like a moral authority in the community, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, yeah, I watched that and a lot of

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Speaker 2: that shaped you know, just that people come first, right.

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Speaker 2: My stepdad was selfless in a lot of ways people wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: I knew him, I knew it intimately. But I watched

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Speaker 2: him feed little children who he knew, you know, their

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Speaker 2: parents weren't didn't have I watched him help people pay

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Speaker 2: their rent. I watched him do a lot of things

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Speaker 2: that was about not putting himself first. He would he

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Speaker 2: would go down aside and pick up the trash in

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Speaker 2: the street, like that's how because he cared about the

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Speaker 2: community he cared about, like it was important to him.

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Speaker 2: He was proud of it. So that's how that's how

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Speaker 2: I grew up. You know, I'm from the Bronx. People

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Speaker 2: don't think about the Bronx in that way when you

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Speaker 2: think about community. You have all of this stuff he's

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Speaker 2: on TV, but we had. We were multicultural, right, so

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Speaker 2: I grew up around all kinds of culture, ethnicities, different

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Speaker 2: people of different races, and so it was really a

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Speaker 2: love for people. Now my people, obviously black people were

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Speaker 2: at the center of my world and my concern, but

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Speaker 2: not to the detriment or to the exclusion of anybody else. Yes,

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Speaker 2: So yeah, that's that's where it came from. And then

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Speaker 2: as a teenager, I joined a youth group that just

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Speaker 2: changed everything. It took all of that foundation that I

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Speaker 2: had from my family and it gave me somewhere to

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Speaker 2: channel it. Right, I had learned all about injustice, I

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Speaker 2: had read all these books, I had all of this

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Speaker 2: historic information, and I had this sort of burning about it.

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Speaker 2: But when I joined the twenty first Century Youth Leadership

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Speaker 2: Movement that was the name of the organization, they said, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: you don't have to wait right like you are a

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Speaker 2: youth leader only because of your age. You are a

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Speaker 2: leader because of who you are. And that just shifted everything.

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Speaker 2: It was like, oh, I like to run my mouth,

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Speaker 2: You got the right one. And so they helped me tea.

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Speaker 2: They helped teach me how to take that all of

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Speaker 2: that desire and the big mouth and the like leadership

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Speaker 2: ability and manel it into social justice work. And that's

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Speaker 2: where I've been.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm curious, how did your identity as a

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Speaker 1: black woman inform the way you understood power and harm

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Speaker 1: and responsibility so early in your life?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I watched again. I grew up in

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Speaker 2: the Bronx. Yeah, and in New York in the seventies

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Speaker 2: and eighties, there was a I mean, I think this

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Speaker 2: is always the case, but certainly there was a lot

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Speaker 2: the power and balance between like law enforcement and the community,

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Speaker 2: between politicians and people. It was very transparent, or at

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Speaker 2: the very least the way I was raised, it was

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Speaker 2: made transparent to me, right, I was made very clear

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Speaker 2: those messages and a lot of what my grandfather did,

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Speaker 2: and he was really intentional, was about knowing who I was,

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Speaker 2: not just as a person, but as a black girl

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Speaker 2: in this world, and everything sort of centered around that, like,

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Speaker 2: this is the reality, this is the reality for you,

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Speaker 2: and so that that really informed a lot of how

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Speaker 2: I thought how I moved through the world. But for

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Speaker 2: some people, it makes them move through the world I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna say, sort of sheltered and shrink back because you

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Speaker 2: feel like there's no space for girls who look like me,

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Speaker 2: you know. But I'm thankful that my mother was the

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Speaker 2: opposite of that and taught me very early to take

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Speaker 2: up space because I was a black girl. I love

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Speaker 2: that she was very clear. My granddaddy too, but my grandmother,

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Speaker 2: and I should my grandparents because my grandmother was definitely

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Speaker 2: I don't care who you are, what's going on. My

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Speaker 2: children come first, my voice and it will be heard,

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Speaker 2: and that got passed on. So I'm I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: that was an anomaly until I got out into the

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Speaker 2: world and I was like, why are we not talking?

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Speaker 2: Why are we not you know? But yeah, being a

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Speaker 2: black woman has informed every part of my life, and

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Speaker 2: I don't feel any way about that. I think some

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Speaker 2: people want us not to, you know, lean into identity

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Speaker 2: politics and what have you. But my identity is why

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Speaker 2: people know me. It's why it's also why I move

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Speaker 2: through the world the way I do. Right, if I

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Speaker 2: wasn't a black woman and a black feminist in particular,

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Speaker 2: I would not have the perspective that I have, and

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Speaker 2: I would not I would I I'm not saying I wouldn't,

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Speaker 2: but I have an understanding that everybody deserves a space.

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Speaker 2: I have an understanding about justice in a particular way.

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Speaker 2: I have an understanding about the the way marginalized people

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Speaker 2: are treated and why the least of these have to

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Speaker 2: get first so that everybody can get what they need.

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Speaker 2: All of that stems from me being a black woman

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Speaker 2: and a black feminist.

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Speaker 1: Can you I know the story but for our listeners,

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Speaker 1: because it is so profound and so powerful, Can you

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Speaker 1: take me back to the moment me Too began? And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just a hashtag. It was a phrase meant

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Speaker 1: to comfort and connect. And I know the story and

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Speaker 1: I believe it. You started Me Too in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and six, but and something happened. I would love for you,

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Speaker 1: if you're open to talk about of you talking about Heaven,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah, and how Me Too actually started from the

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Speaker 1: story that you've told you know before, But I would

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Speaker 1: love for you to tell a story of how it

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Speaker 1: started for our listeners.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean prior to two thousand and six,

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Speaker 2: I was doing youth leadership work. I actually went to

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Speaker 2: work for Twenty first Century after college because it was

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Speaker 2: really important for me to give to other young people

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Speaker 2: what was given to me. Right that that that organization

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Speaker 2: and that work had shaped me. And inside of that,

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Speaker 2: I started working with black girls specifically because I just

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Speaker 2: watched how they were treated differently. You know, I had

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Speaker 2: like an after school program, and yeah, I just I

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Speaker 2: just it made it. It was really clear in ways

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Speaker 2: that I hadn't seen before that oh, the girls need

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Speaker 2: some kind of really direct and special attention. But again,

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Speaker 2: I was working in the South. I was working in Selma, Alabama. So,

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Speaker 2: and I'm saying that for context for people, because this

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Speaker 2: is Dallas County is the county that Selma sits in.

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Speaker 2: It's one of the poorest counties in the nation. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so this is in some instances extreme poverty, wildly

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Speaker 2: under resourced, right, I mean just wildly underresourced as a

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Speaker 2: as a city and community. And so when you bring

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Speaker 2: all of those elements together, you find all kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: Violence for search for sure, sexual violence, definitely. And I

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Speaker 2: kept encountering so many of our girls who were survivors

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Speaker 2: of sexual violence. I had no intention of doing network

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Speaker 2: of doing this work. It was not I actually didn't

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Speaker 2: even think of it as work to do.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't. It wasn't this popular movement happened. Wasn't It wasn't.

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Speaker 2: It was just but I had been well. Two things happened. First,

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Speaker 2: I met Heaven. And you have to read oftentimes that

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Speaker 2: I'm fifty two now. I was twenty two when this happened.

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Speaker 2: So gosh, yourself so wild to say out loud, but

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Speaker 2: thirty years ago.

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Speaker 1: You looked great. That's all that matters.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: The work hasn't aged your honey.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, that's a that's a what I say. Thank God,

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Speaker 2: I don't look what I like what I've been through

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Speaker 2: that part. But i'd met this little girl before I

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Speaker 2: started this work, before I had a name, Pashtac anything

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Speaker 2: like that, who basically confided in me right because she

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Speaker 2: was in my group and the message that we had

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Speaker 2: been given them is you can trust us. You know

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Speaker 2: we're here to support you. We are a family, all

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Speaker 2: these kind of things. And she came to me to

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Speaker 2: tell me that she had, you know, was a survivor

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Speaker 2: of sexual violence at the hands of her mom's boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: And in that moment when she told me, I had

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Speaker 2: not done any work, I had not. I didn't have

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Speaker 2: the language of survivor. I didn't have therapy. I had nothing.

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Speaker 2: I was a blank slate. And what I had done

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Speaker 2: was to figure out how to create a persona to

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Speaker 2: protect myself. So the outward perfectionist Tronta who was a

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Speaker 2: scholarly and athletic and a leader, and all of that

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Speaker 2: was the was the extent that I had done to

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Speaker 2: protect myself from the little girl who was the survivor,

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Speaker 2: who had been traumatized and molested. And so I ain't

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Speaker 2: deal with that little girl. I put her, I packed

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Speaker 2: he up, put her in the box, and I lived

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Speaker 2: my outward life. And what Heaven did by telling me

387
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Speaker 2: her story was was threatened. That it was the first

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Speaker 2: time that that there was there was a threat in

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Speaker 2: my body. I literally could feel like, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: no no no, I don't deal with that part. I

391
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Speaker 2: don't go to that place right And I tell people

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Speaker 2: this all the time. It was my inability to save

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Speaker 2: me too that shifted everything from me.

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Speaker 1: Right.

395
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Speaker 2: It's like, you know, when you like watching my brain

396
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 2: works in animation. Sometimes I'm like thinking about characters fighting

397
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Speaker 2: each other in my mind right now, but it's like

398
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Speaker 2: watching you fight yourself. Because there was a part of

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Speaker 2: me that loved this little girl, love little black girls,

400
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Speaker 2: love working with them, and knew what the work ahead was, right,

401
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 2: like I think in strategy, Like I said, I knew,

402
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Speaker 2: I could see it, but I didn't understand it right.

403
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Speaker 2: And when I'm watching this little girl come to me,

404
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: and she didn't want all this. She didn't want the bravados,

405
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Speaker 2: she didn't want the leader, she didn't want the platitude,

406
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Speaker 2: she didn't want any of that. She wanted a real

407
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Speaker 2: person to connect to her, just for a moment to

408
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Speaker 2: say I see it and I believe you, and I

409
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Speaker 2: am you, and I didn't have it. And the moment

410
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Speaker 2: she walked away and kind of was like, you're a liar.

411
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Speaker 2: I could see it. She didn't say that, but I

412
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Speaker 2: could see it in her body and her face was

413
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Speaker 2: like I tried to give you a little bit, and

414
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Speaker 2: you're a liar. The realization for me that I mean,

415
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Speaker 2: obviously it wasn't in that moment, but What came after

416
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Speaker 2: that was like, I'm not going to be able to

417
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Speaker 2: do this work for real until I'll figure out first

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Speaker 2: of all, who I am and what I am and

419
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Speaker 2: what this is. Right until I faced this monster.

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Speaker 1: And.

421
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Speaker 2: So I started my own journey of like my healing journey.

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Speaker 2: But I met so many more heavens immediately after, right,

423
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Speaker 2: so many more most of my girls, I'll never forget.

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Speaker 2: When we started the program in the school, we had

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Speaker 2: done this work so that there's only one with the time,

426
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Speaker 2: there's only one junior high school in Selma, and we

427
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 2: had gotten our program, our leadership program in that junior

428
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Speaker 2: high schools me and me and my best friend at

429
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Speaker 2: the time, and you know, we're working side by side.

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Speaker 2: We're going to do this leadership program. We had a

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Speaker 2: program called Jewels. Actually this is the twentieth anniversary this year. Wow,

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Speaker 2: it'd be twenty years since we started the Jewel program

433
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 2: and well maybe last year. But anyway, we start this program,

434
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 2: we're working in the school and we're doing this like

435
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 2: at this point, I'm trying to figure out how to

436
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 2: incorporate sexual violence and talk about sexual violence in the world.

437
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: And we did this little exercise where we use celebrities

438
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: to talk about who were survivors and how they survived.

439
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 2: And this is me Too hadn't started as a real thing,

440
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 2: but it was workshops that I was trying to do

441
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: inside the school. Anyway, we thought, we'll just we don't

442
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: want people to out themselves as survivors, so we'll just

443
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: have them like write it on a piece of paper.

444
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: And at the end of the little workshop we did,

445
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: we said, you know, if you this is something that

446
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 2: affects your life, just write me to on a piece

447
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 2: of paper, or write down two things that you learned

448
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: from this workshop, so that everybody had something to write.

449
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: And I'll never figured us going back to the to

450
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 2: our room and pouring out that it was in a

451
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: Manila envelope and poured it out on the bed and

452
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: just opening me too, Me too, Me too, one after another,

453
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 2: and this is seventh grader's eighth Little girls. That that

454
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 2: is when I was really clear. Some other things happen,

455
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: some there was a there was a moment where I

456
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: feel like the hand of God really came down, not

457
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: to be super dramatic, and was just like, this is

458
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: your work, Yes, this is this is it. You can

459
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: run from it, you can do all the things because

460
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 2: I was really just like, I don't want to do this.

461
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: I don't even know what this is, right, I don't

462
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 2: I want to teach young girls to be young women

463
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 2: who are leaders. I want them to do well in school.

464
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: I don't want to do this, whatever this is. But

465
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell you. It got to the point where

466
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: there was no way to do that without doing this first, right,

467
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,360
Speaker 2: because even for the girls in the class who were

468
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 2: not survivors, who had not had that experience, thankfully there was,

469
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: they still needed the information to try to prevent them

470
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: from ever having that happened in their life. So I

471
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: had been grounded by the eldest who taught me about organizing,

472
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: by my family like to believe that community problems deserve

473
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 2: community solutions. And so I went to the community and

474
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 2: I said, listen, we have a problem at the junior

475
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: high school. Yeah, percent of my girls are raising their

476
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: hand to say that they've experienced this. And they were like,

477
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 2: that sounds like a guidance counselor problem or a parent problem.

478
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: And I was like, this is our problems. These are

479
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 2: our children.

480
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: We have to protect them.

481
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: We have to And so it became a movement for me,

482
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: because movement is what I knew, right. I was like,

483
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: this is not going to be done in workshops in

484
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: the school, This is not going to be done in

485
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: a classroom. This has to be people moving together who

486
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 2: believe that these children need to be safe, that they

487
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: deserve safety, that they deserve protection, that they deserve a

488
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: future that's not impeded by the worst moment in their life. Yeah,

489
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: and you know what, we started doing this work. I

490
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: got really serious, you know, like this is what I

491
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: want to do. And then I had this. This is

492
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: the part I think people get confused because they think

493
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: it started on my Space. But it didn't start on

494
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: my Space. I was in the classrooms and in the

495
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: community first, but my space was popular. So we went

496
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: to my Space and I made a page and then

497
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: the adult women came and that's that was the change.

498
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: That's why that was in two thousand and six. The

499
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: adult women survivors came from every everywhere and they were like,

500
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 2: me too, me too, this happened to me too, and

501
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: nobody's ever talked about it. And I've never had a

502
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: place to place this. I've never had and I said,

503
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: oh my god, these women need exactly what my girls need.

504
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: Yep.

505
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna tell you what else, Ashlyn. In twenty seventeen,

506
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: when Me Too went viral, it was the same thing.

507
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: It was survivors of all stripes around the whole world

508
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: who needed the same thing that those seventh grade girls

509
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: needed in Selma. Right you, you cannot, Shane cannot live

510
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: in the sunlight. We know that, right, it can't be.

511
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: It doesn't survive once you shine light on it. And

512
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: connection also kill Shane. And so people who have been

513
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: living with this deep shame and this deep fear were

514
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: suddenly seen and connected. And that's how you sustain a movement. Really,

515
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 2: it's people who understand that they are connected to one another,

516
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 2: even if it's by trauma.

517
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the burden of holding that alone will always

518
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: come out sideways. And giving someone the ability to say

519
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: I'm with you, and I see you, and I stand

520
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: next to you, and stay tuned. I'll be back in

521
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: just a moment after this leaf message from our sponsors.

522
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: It's a really, really beautiful thing. Did you ever think

523
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: in a million years or imagine it would ever be

524
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: this big?

525
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: Now? I imagine I will tell you I never thought in

526
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: a million years it would be this. But when I

527
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: first started Me Too, It's so interesting, I remember because

528
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 2: I wanted to get all these celebrities involved, people who

529
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: I later met in real life, but at the time

530
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 2: I knew they were survivors, and I thought that me

531
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: Too would be the rainbow flag of the survivors. Right.

532
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: I thought we would have me Too stickers that survivors

533
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: would put on their windows in their cars, and people

534
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: would know, oh, this is a safe space because a

535
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: survivor lives here. Right. I wanted it to be universal

536
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: language for how we connected with each other. So I

537
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: did envision that I was a part of the vision.

538
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 2: I didn't know how to get there. Hashtags weren't a thing,

539
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,479
Speaker 2: you know exactly. I thought, Oh, if I get a

540
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 2: if I can get Oprah to wear me two shirt,

541
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: the world will talk about it, you know. I thought

542
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: that was the way we got information out. But I

543
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: could not. The biggest one of the biggest lessons I've

544
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: had in the last eight years is that I certainly

545
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 2: was not dreaming big enough. Oh I was not. I

546
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: had I had what I thought was big dreams, like

547
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: getting Oprah to wear the T shirt. That was the

548
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: biggest I could dream, but having you know, twenty million

549
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: people simultaneously around the around the world say we are

550
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 2: connected because this happened to me, couldn't even fathom it.

551
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's no coincidence to me. I do feel this,

552
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: and I say this in Sophia and I talk about

553
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: it all the time. Black women have always been on

554
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: the front lines of social change, often without protection, without credit,

555
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: without rest. Yes, why do you think that is racism?

556
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, you know, in a word, I think

557
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: that this is such a deeply, deeply deeply it's so

558
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 2: deeply entrenched in our country that it's hard to see

559
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: the leadership and the wisdom and the you know, run

560
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: down the list that black women have to offer. I

561
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: think there was been, there was a very intentional and

562
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: systematic devaluing of Black women as human beings that that

563
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: does not allow people to make the leap to say

564
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: that this is there is a there's a body of

565
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 2: wisdom here. You know, we could point to groups of

566
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: indigenous indigenous people, particularly women. Yes, across the board, people

567
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 2: in the LATINX community, like women largely hold the courage, right,

568
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 2: We don't just hold the power, but we hold the

569
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: courage to activate on the power. I think as human beings,

570
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: we all have an innate power to move things, to

571
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: change things, to be connected. I don't think that that

572
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: differentiates by gender, but I think that what activates power

573
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 2: is courage, and women, by and large, particularly Black women,

574
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: have tapped into that courage a lot of times. For us,

575
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 2: it's because we don't know the choice, right, It's be

576
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: courageous to use everything every gift God gave you, or

577
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 2: you won't exist. So we've had to do that multiple times. Again,

578
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 2: I think about Indigenous women who've had to do that.

579
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,720
Speaker 2: Their whole entire existence in this country has been about

580
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: them leaning on them their innate power and their connectivity.

581
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: And so I just think that what racism and patriarchy

582
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: and sexism and all of those things have done to

583
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 2: every other group of I mean, has is always multiplied

584
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 2: when you, yeah, as you could go further and further,

585
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: you know, down to pigment scales. So yeah, yeah, that's

586
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: just and it's unfortunate because we miss out on people

587
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: miss out.

588
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: On so much, so much because of the fear. And

589
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: I think that's a I love the way you say that,

590
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: and there's such a calmness and safety about you, And

591
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: there's there's no question to me why people came to

592
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: you to feel safe enough to talk about the traumas

593
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: and the darkness. And you do carry this presence about

594
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: you where it's pure safety, and I think that is

595
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: a gift. That is a gift, and it is always

596
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: our choice what we do with that gift. And how

597
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: lucky are we that? Yeah, how lucky are we that

598
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: you chose to continue because I I know the backlash,

599
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: not personally, I have read and watched the backlash that

600
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: has been put on your shoulders that you've had to

601
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: carry the weight of this racism and misogyny. And you know,

602
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: people were like, this is a witch hunt to tell

603
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: the truth about my experience. You're going to minimize that.

604
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: How how do you hold that weight?

605
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:21,479
Speaker 2: Though?

606
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: How do you hold that weight? You know?

607
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 2: Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I have. I can say I

608
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 2: have an incredible village of people, incredible community around me

609
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: that allowed me to unload that weight. I don't. I'm

610
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: not a superhero, and I succumb to criticism. I succumb

611
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: to to pressure. I succumb to all kinds, you know, hatred,

612
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: vitriol that I just feel that I'm just feel like

613
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 2: I don't understand. I feel like one of the most

614
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 2: naive moments I had was right after me to enviral

615
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 2: and everybody's like, oh, you know, the backlash is coming.

616
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,919
Speaker 2: And I thought, for just a moment, why why would

617
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: they be backlash? Yeah, there's just all people are saying

618
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: is don't don't rape people right like ask permission. Yes,

619
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 2: that's we're just saying it out loud. And it was

620
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: such a and I think about it now, and I

621
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: think about the conversation I had that specific conversation. It's like,

622
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: why are you really naive at the lengths that people

623
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: will go to preserve their power, right, Because that's what

624
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 2: sexual violence is about, right, power and dominance. So but

625
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 2: for me, the backlash has been it's hurtful, it's so harmful.

626
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 2: But in some ways it's also and this may sound weird,

627
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: it's a little bit invigorating. I get I gain a

628
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 2: little bit every every more and more as time goes by.

629
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: I get more energy from the backlash too. One because

630
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: I'm a fighter, right, I think part of that is

631
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 2: just me. I think, yeah that I don't mind a fight.

632
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: I don't back away from them. I'm not scared it

633
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 2: So there's a part of me that's just like a right, Oh,

634
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 2: that's what we're doing.

635
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: We're fighting, right, Okay, I'm gonna dig in.

636
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: I'm gonna dig in. Right, I'm tent toes down. This

637
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 2: is this is this is where I thrive. But then

638
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 2: there's another part of me that's like the jokes on

639
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: you because the backlash. You only would fight against things

640
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: that you think are successful, right, You only plot and

641
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: scheme to tear down something that is actually effective. So

642
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: if there was no backlash, if people weren't thinking about it,

643
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: people weren't that that would mean that we were not

644
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: making a dent and we weren't relevant. Yes, but the

645
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: backlash proves the relevance, right you you'll go, y'all will

646
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: go to great lengths to make me to the villain

647
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 2: or make me too an inept and ineffective and blah

648
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: blah blah. But we keep watching these things, and I

649
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: know how to count my wins. People sometimes don't count

650
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: their wins well, and so that's why they feel defeated.

651
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: But I'm like, while everybody is, you know, there was

652
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of people who were like did they'll

653
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: become disappointed about the outcome of some big celebrity case.

654
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: And I'm like, let's put perspective around this. Yeah, we

655
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 2: couldn't even get that celebrity in a courtroom ten years ago.

656
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: You couldn't call their name without a defamation suit. That

657
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: would you know, sue you out of the existence ten

658
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: years ago? Right? So the demon is the is the

659
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: violence and all the systems that uphold the violence. We

660
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: are trying to slay a dragon. Yes, so when you

661
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 2: get if you cut the toenail off of a dragon, right,

662
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 2: that's a winn. You are gonna count that as a win.

663
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: And every time that that that dragon comes back, I'm

664
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: coming for another toe. I'm coming for another tone, because

665
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 2: what it may take just to get that toe. People

666
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 2: don't even understand what it takes to get that which

667
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 2: looks to you, right, But people who are sitting at

668
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: home in the little in their little huts, I'm just

669
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: imagining a whole the whole village now it's attacked by

670
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: a dragon. This is where my brain.

671
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: I love the way you're painting a beautiful picture.

672
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 2: I love it. But imagine you looking out of your

673
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 2: window saying, oh my gosh, the dragon is just missing

674
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: the tell what's the big deal? What's the big deal?

675
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: Because he has to hop now and he can't run

676
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 2: fast enough to get me exactly.

677
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: We're gonna slowly take you, take you out.

678
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: I got my sling shot. Like I think that people

679
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: don't That's what people don't get. What it's going to

680
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: take to slatest demon sexual and gender based violence is

681
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: as old as the history of the world. Time. It

682
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 2: is as the oldest time. Right, We've been hearing about

683
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: it since biblical times. And yes, so this a hashtag

684
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: is not going to erase that. That's not And so

685
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: I will say that the progress that we've made in

686
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: the last eight years after the hashtag is probably more

687
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: than would have done in twenty years. Right. It was

688
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 2: an amplifier, It was a magnifier. It has made legible

689
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 2: parts of a movement and work and systems that people

690
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 2: didn't understand. This is why I was the whole Epstein

691
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 2: files being released. I think people there were different reasons

692
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: why people wanted it.

693
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: I was.

694
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 2: Weary of the survivors being used as pawns because we've

695
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: seen it happen before, or the issue itself, not even

696
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 2: just the survivors, but the issue being politicized to the

697
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 2: point where it's you know, that's what our politicians do

698
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: on both sides of the aisur. Whatever is expedient for them,

699
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 2: they move in that moment around the issue. But what

700
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 2: was more important for me was that these files get

701
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: released so that people can start seeing looking at the

702
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: picture of a thing that we've not really seen legible

703
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,439
Speaker 2: in many for most of us, right, we've not seen

704
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 2: the inner workings of how this trafficking and violence, these

705
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 2: systems of violence work, and people need to It needs

706
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 2: to be normalized, It needs to be seen, and people

707
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 2: need to dig into it and say, wait, why can't

708
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 2: the kneebone connected to the what? Oh? That is important.

709
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: We need to continue to make legible these secrets and

710
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 2: these systems that have upheld this kind of violence and

711
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 2: continue these these bastions of power that continue to perpetuate

712
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 2: this violence.

713
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: And hurt women generation after generation children with that. Are

714
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: you I mean, I'm worried, but I have to ask this,

715
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: Are you worried? Where we're at right now with women's rights,

716
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 1: body autonomy, survivors protections, everything is rolling back? Sure, all

717
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: of this work, you know, all of this work we're

718
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: all doing and for these men to just come in like,

719
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: how do you feel? How do you hold that? You know?

720
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 2: Again, I sometimes sound like the different voice on this.

721
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: I am obviously worried. Right, this is the this is

722
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: the safety strategy conversation. Again, it makes us much less

723
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,919
Speaker 2: safe when we lose these protections. It makes us more

724
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 2: vulnerable to all of the things that are praying that

725
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 2: are outfit or ready to pray on us. As women.

726
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 2: I'm just speaking about women and fems and gender not

727
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 2: conforming queer folks in this moment who are like at

728
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,919
Speaker 2: the very very end of the spectrum in terms of vulnerability.

729
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: So when you when you my folks who on the

730
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,760
Speaker 2: front line fighting like we are, right, we're fighting around

731
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: electoral politics, electoral justice, around to get these laws and

732
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 2: policies changed because this is about safety. Yes, one of

733
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: the biggest work things that we're doing now is an

734
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 2: organization is trying to organize survivors as a constituency. Right.

735
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: We did this campaign called Survivors Vote, and people were like,

736
00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: well is that how does that relate to your work?

737
00:43:59,600 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: Well?

738
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 2: How relates to my work? Oh yeah, you wouldn't even

739
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 2: imagine the questions we get, But it relates to our

740
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 2: work because at any given moment, there are at least

741
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 2: fifty two million people in the United States who are

742
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 2: survivors of sexual violence at any given moment, right, yeah,

743
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: different configurations whatever. The lion's share of that as women,

744
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 2: it's not just women, but the lion's share of that

745
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: is Imagine if people would have organized themselves along the

746
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 2: lines of their survivorship, not red or blue or purple not.

747
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 2: But I'm a survivor and I want to live in

748
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 2: a community that is safe. And safety for me is

749
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 2: more than just you know, the things that we normally

750
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 2: hear about that it includes this that's an amount of

751
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: power that lends itself to safety, right, And we have

752
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: to keep thinking strategically like that. We have to try

753
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: to codify as much power as we can in order

754
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 2: to keep us safe in this moment. That's really the

755
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 2: game for me. So when I hear about these rollbacks,

756
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: I think about where can we build more power to

757
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 2: fight against that? Correct? But I also know, again to

758
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 2: my point about sustainability, these things aren't sustainable and we

759
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,399
Speaker 2: know better, and so there's some part of me that

760
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 2: doesn't also want to operate. And this may get a

761
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: little you know whatever, but I try not to operate

762
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 2: like somebody else has that kind of power over me. Yes,

763
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 2: you can change the law, you can't change who I

764
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 2: am as a person. You can't change how I operate

765
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 2: and interact with other human beings, right, And so leaning

766
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: into my humanity and trying to both organize and interact

767
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 2: with people from a place of humanity, right, Like, that's

768
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: why women's rights have to be thought of as a

769
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 2: human rights issue. Yes, right, You're not doing this just

770
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: because oh we are a lookout for the women. Know,

771
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: We're all human beings and we all have individual issues

772
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 2: that affect us based on an identity, be a demographic

773
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: or whatever. And so this is a human rights issue.

774
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: When we lean into our humanity, it takes a different tone,

775
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 2: in different shape, and I think, a different fight. So

776
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 2: we have to shift laws and policies to keep us safe,

777
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 2: for sure, we have to shift people to sustain that safety.

778
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: Yes, that part. So what does true accountability look like

779
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: to you? And I don't mean just punishment, but like

780
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: transformation because you talk a lot about this and the

781
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: curriculum part of me too. That's what people don't understand.

782
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: And I hope the listeners know this, like, there is

783
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 1: a whole depth of what you do behind the me too,

784
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: your teachings, the safety of which you help, you know,

785
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: these marginalized communities and young women, but there is it's

786
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: not just about the punishment, but really it is about

787
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 1: the transformation. And you talk a lot about empathy and

788
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: can you elaborate more on what true accountability looks like

789
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: for you right now?

790
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: So I can talk about it from what it means

791
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 2: for Toronto. But I say this all the time that

792
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 2: accountability is really it's two things I say about accountability.

793
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 2: The first is survivors have to define accountability for themselves, right,

794
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: and we have to believe that people have enough. We

795
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 2: have to believe in the power survivors and the resilience

796
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 2: of us to allow people to define what accountability means.

797
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 2: So there is sort of a larger accountability. I think

798
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 2: things like naming sexual violence as a social justice issue

799
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 2: and a public health crisis for the for the country

800
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 2: is important. That's an important type of accountability because this

801
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 2: country is so much, so responsible for so much of

802
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 2: the violence, right, so much of so much of the systems,

803
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 2: so many of the systems that uphold the violence. So

804
00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 2: you know, their needs. Accountability is in budgeting, like where

805
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 2: the resources go. Yes, when I'm thinking thinking about large

806
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 2: scale accountability, I'm thinking about how we spend our resources,

807
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: who we elect how Like that's the way that we

808
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 2: show survivors, and we use the word survivors all the time.

809
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 2: But these are just people. This is just your citizens,

810
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 2: your neighbors, your classmates, your friends, your family, all of

811
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 2: us are so many of us are survivors of sexual

812
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 2: and gender based violence. And the lion's share of us

813
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: are surviving in the very same places where we were harmed. Yes,

814
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 2: and we are doing that watching people not be active,

815
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 2: not care, not proactive, and so to be accountable. It's

816
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 2: not just from the individual person who caused harm. I

817
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 2: think that's part of the we individualize sexual violence so much.

818
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 2: So it's like Toronto was harmed and Xyz harned her.

819
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: Put him in jail or remove him from the community,

820
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 2: get her some resources. Everything's good. No, when one individual

821
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: is harmed in your community, your whole community is harmed.

822
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 2: Right if people would think about it the way we

823
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 2: think about gun violence, yes, right, if a child is

824
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: shot in your community, we yes, we want to make

825
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: sure that that child gets a proper burial. We want

826
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 2: to make sure that the person who committed that the

827
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: harm to the child, who you know, the crime, is

828
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 2: dealt with, But nobody just walks away from that. If

829
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 2: a child is shot in the community, there is almost

830
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 2: always a conversation about how do we make sure this

831
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 2: doesn't happen again, how do we keep our children safe?

832
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 2: What were the failures that allowed this to happen? Right,

833
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 2: these are the kind of conversations that happen from concerned

834
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: citizens in their community when a child is harmed, When

835
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 2: a person a child is sexually assaulted in the community,

836
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 2: we don't have that same kind of response, right, we

837
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 2: may and this is not again an indictment of people.

838
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 2: It's the way we've been socialized to think about the issue.

839
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,919
Speaker 2: We want to get support for the child, you want

840
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 2: to get the perpetrator out, and then that's we want

841
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: to keep silent. It's always this, always, and that's and

842
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: that's if we believe the child, if support them, right,

843
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 2: if we perfect like yeah, all it is so many

844
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 2: ifs around that. But what we do, regardless of either

845
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,839
Speaker 2: either scenario is silence, and we don't think about the

846
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 2: harm that it is caused. Around us. Ever were the

847
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 2: failures that made this happen? What are the resources that

848
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: are missing in this community?

849
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:32,879
Speaker 1: Right?

850
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:37,919
Speaker 2: And so for me to be accountable as citizens, as

851
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: human beings, for we have to be accountable for each other.

852
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 2: We have to say, if one person in this community

853
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 2: is harmed by this violence, we're all harmed and we're

854
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: all responsible. Yes, let's figure out what How can I

855
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,839
Speaker 2: be accountable to this person who experienced this harm? Right?

856
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 2: Because it's human beings who coexist and live. We have

857
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 2: we have a little bit of responsibility for you each other.

858
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: And I don't think that we will that's community, that's community,

859
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: and we won't thrive. We can come out of this

860
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 2: situation we're in now, new administration, you know, new day.

861
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 2: Everybody wake up. If we don't grasp that we have

862
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 2: to care for each other, that we are deeply connected

863
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 2: and that our humanity is dependent on that, we will

864
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 2: open ourselves up for another whoever, whatever, right? And so

865
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: I think about accountability from that standpoint, Who am I

866
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 2: personally accountable for? How can I take whatever in the

867
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 2: smallest amount of responsibility I have for harmness cause? And

868
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,399
Speaker 2: if I didn't physically do it, what do I need

869
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 2: to do to be responsible for that. And I think

870
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: that that is a really important like shift for us

871
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,479
Speaker 2: to think about. And I also think, in a very

872
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 2: sort of going back to the individual, have to remember

873
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: that sexual violence happens on the spectrum, and so accountability should.

874
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: Happen on the spectrum exactly right.

875
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 2: It is not I think the the idea that me

876
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 2: too is a witch hunt and all the rest of that,

877
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 2: because people were watching any level of accountability in real

878
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: time and they hadn't seen it before. Yes, And so

879
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 2: that's another mind shift that says, what do I deserve?

880
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 2: When somebody has this experience, what is it that they deserve?

881
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 2: They get to define it, but we need to figure

882
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 2: out how to make it accessible to them. Yes, even

883
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 2: if it's just moving out the way, Yes, even if

884
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 2: it's just being quiet right, like not judging, there's there's

885
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 2: there's always a piece that we can play in helping

886
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,760
Speaker 2: somebody get to accountability.

887
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:48,919
Speaker 1: Yeah.

888
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 2: And I just want to say one last thing about

889
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 2: that too. And it doesn't mean that we throw people away.

890
00:52:54,000 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: It's accountability and has become synonymous with canceling and throwing away.

891
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to mean that, right, there's a way

892
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 2: that we can. We you know, there's some people who

893
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 2: do need to be removed for a period of time,

894
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 2: and I'm not saying that's prison or whatever, but in

895
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 2: some way they have to be removed and it has

896
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 2: to be repair. Yeah, we lose the repair part often

897
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 2: because we're so focused on the removal. The repair may

898
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 2: have to happen on both Yes, Right, we're not going

899
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 2: to truly transform our society and we're not going to

900
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 2: have a world without sexual violence if we don't think

901
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 2: about repair in a more holistic way. So like, there's

902
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 2: some things that's gonna really it's going to really ruffle

903
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 2: some people's feathers about how they how we respond and

904
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 2: what accountability actually looks like. But it's necessary because we

905
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 2: need a new we need a new dynamic we need

906
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 2: as we build this new world that we want if

907
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 2: we want that world to be with our sexual violence,

908
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 2: and God knows, I believe that that is possible, we

909
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 2: have to. You know, our work in Me Too is

910
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 2: revolving around the word that we use called solvability. Part

911
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 2: of the reason I believe that sexual violence is bastardized

912
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 2: as an issue and around social justice is that people

913
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 2: don't think it's solvable. It's a foregone conclusion, right, this

914
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 2: is just a way of life. Everybody is going to

915
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: deal with a little harassment. Everybody's going to deal with

916
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: some people may have some you know, the violence. What

917
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: can you do about it? Not? True accountability to me

918
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 2: is really is understanding that this is a solvable issue

919
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 2: and then latching on and figuring out what is your

920
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 2: piece of the puzzle to solve it.

921
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, I love that you are such You're such

922
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 1: a light to so many people.

923
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 2: You really are.

924
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: I have to ask this for someone who holds so

925
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: much power and the way you move and the way

926
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: you stand in the world, and how you show up

927
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: for people, because you do bring hope and belonging and

928
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: safety to so many of us. Who do you? Who's

929
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 1: bringing you hope right now? What woman is like grounding

930
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: your life, perspective, legacy work.

931
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 2: Oh man, all of it? Well, I will say the

932
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 2: person who is high on that list doesn't identify as

933
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,759
Speaker 2: a woman's Okay, okay, that's what. But my child, my

934
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:40,440
Speaker 2: daughter who is non binary, they are a big part

935
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 2: of that. They keep me current, they keep me honest,

936
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 2: they keep me learning, and they keep me motivated to

937
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 2: have a different world. And my baby is grown like

938
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 2: twenty eight but still my.

939
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 1: Baby, yes, always.

940
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 2: And I have two other bonus bonus daughters, and they

941
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 2: all they are so magnificent, all three of them in

942
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 2: their own ways that it makes me want to be

943
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 2: not just better, but also like consistent. You know, a

944
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 2: lot of the way people the reason why people don't

945
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 2: believe in folks and don't it's because they're inconsistent, yes,

946
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 2: and you know, and that doesn't mean you don't have

947
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 2: off moments or bad moments or whatever. But for the most part,

948
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 2: you are consistent. And I try. I strive to be

949
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 2: consistent and to be dutiful because of them. Certainly my

950
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 2: mother and my grandmother. My grandma's passed, but my mother

951
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 2: and my grandmother and my aunt, the women in my

952
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: family are very strong, yeah, and very protective, and they've

953
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: taught me so much and they keep me just wanting

954
00:56:55,560 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 2: to be like them. And then I have my friends

955
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 2: who are my chosen family, and my husband who keeps

956
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,240
Speaker 2: me soft, you know, and make sure that the world

957
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 2: doesn't hard in my heart and I love that, keep

958
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 2: me laughing, keep me feeling safe. Yeah, those are the

959
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 2: those are the That's what I that's why I sustain myself.

960
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: Really is that group and everybody has been around forever,

961
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 2: so I trust there's a lot of trust, a lot

962
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: of love, and a lot of learning, right and there's

963
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 2: some brilliant there's some brilliant badass women out here, and

964
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 2: a lot of them are my friends.

965
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: So well, I just love it. You root yourself so

966
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 1: much and truth and purpose, and I like, I have

967
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: to say thank you for you because you do. You

968
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: serve others, and people have no idea the cost that

969
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: that brings to not only you, holy yeah, but your family,

970
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: your friends like you choose every single day, no matter

971
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: how hard it gets, to do it over and over

972
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: and over again. And we need people like you. And

973
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: I hope for people listening and watching this that they

974
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 1: they see and feel that light from you and they

975
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: choose to do something to serve their own community, no

976
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: matter how big or small, because that's what we need

977
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: right now. We need more people. Just like you said,

978
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of people out there who

979
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: are like, I don't do politics, I don't do this,

980
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: I don't do well. You need to start doing it,

981
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 1: and you need you need to start being aware. You

982
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: talk about structure and reframing things. This is an educational

983
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,640
Speaker 1: piece that like, this is all of our problems. Oh

984
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: this isn't just the victims problems. Oh no, it's all

985
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: of our problems.

986
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 2: Not only that. There's no it doesn't matter what it

987
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 2: is you're passionate about, right, people who there are people

988
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 2: who are passionate about gun violence, people who are passionate

989
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 2: about the environment, in greation, education, whatever issue that you

990
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 2: are passionate about, I guarantee you sexual violence is inside

991
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: of it, right, And so there is also a way

992
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 2: that you don't have to Everybody's not gonna be on

993
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 2: the front lines of every issue, but know and understand

994
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 2: that the work that we are doing is affecting everybody.

995
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 2: It's not just survivors. It's so that they won't be

996
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 2: new survivors. And the thing that you care about. If

997
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 2: you care about gun violence, you care about sexual violence. Yes, right,

998
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 2: I care about the environment, you care about sexual violence,

999
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 2: police brutality. I can run down the list, and so

1000
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: our issues aren't far apart. They are interwoven and interdependent

1001
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 2: in many ways. So yes, people need to get active.

1002
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 2: You need to. But again, I think people get scared

1003
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 2: of at I don't know how to do that. I

1004
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 2: don't want to go to a rally. You don't have

1005
00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 2: to read a book, read an article. Get yourself aligned

1006
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 2: in a way because some of these people are gonna

1007
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 2: be jurors, right, some of these people are gonna be

1008
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 2: in conversations and have their sphere of influence. They're gonna

1009
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 2: be the only voice of reason in that in that group.

1010
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 2: So it's it's get yourself, get your mind to guess right,

1011
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 2: get your thinking in alignment in a way that is

1012
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 2: going to be beneficial to the world. And that's your world,

1013
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 2: the world we live in together. Yes, that's all. It's not.

1014
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 2: I don't have to be hard. It doesn't.

1015
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 1: Well, Toronto, thank you so much. Thank you so much

1016
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,240
Speaker 1: for being on this podcast. Thank you for showing up

1017
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: and constantly giving us hope and letting us know that like,

1018
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 1: we're in this together and we're not alone. It's not

1019
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 1: about just what you've built. It's the way you show up.

1020
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 1: Ten toes down, and may we all keep clipping the

1021
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 1: toenails of dragons because we need it. That's what this

1022
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: podcast title is going to be called. We're going to

1023
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: keep clipping the toes of these days dragons, nail by.

1024
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 2: Nail, that's right until amen.

1025
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: Amen, thank you so much for being on Wide Open.

1026
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, oh, thank you, and we'll see you all

1027
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: next week on Wide Open. What stays with me after

1028
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: this conversation is not just the magnitude of what Toronto

1029
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: Burke has built, but the care in which she continues

1030
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 1: to hold it. Me too. Was never about punishment. It

1031
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 1: was about connection. It was about dignity. It was about

1032
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: letting people know they were not broken and never alone.

1033
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: Toronto reminds us that movements don't start in the spotlight.

1034
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: They start in community, They start in listening. They start

1035
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 1: with someone brave enough to say the truth, even when

1036
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: it cost them something. At a time when so many

1037
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: rights feel uncertain, her work is a reminder that progress

1038
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: is not linear, but it is possible, especially when we

1039
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: protect one another, tell our stories and refuse to look away.

1040
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: If this episode moved you, challenged you, or made you

1041
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: feel seen, share it, sit with it, talk about it,

1042
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 1: and remember, healing is not loud, but it is powerful.

1043
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 1: Thank you for being here with us, thank you for

1044
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: staying Wide Open, and we'll see you next week.