WEBVTT - Sedition Hunters: Amateur Sleuths in Online Manhunt 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:23.200 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:34.680 Complete Chaos at the Capitol on January sixth, amateur historians 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:38.199 of the Kennedy assassination only had twenty six seconds of 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.520 the sub Bruder film to study. What a motley assortment 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.120 of Internet sleuths have reams of footage from January six 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:50.360 to analyze. They call themselves the sedition Hunters, a community 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.560 of ordinary people turned Internet sleuths who've spent hundreds of 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:59.680 hours examining the videos, sharing cross referencing, and dissecting information 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.040 on Twitter or in private group jets to bolster the 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.200 FBI's official inquiry. Joining me is Bloomberg Legal reporter David 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:11.080 Yaffee Bellini. David tell us a little about Chris Siggerson. So, 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:13.800 Chris Stoherson is an out of work actor in Canada. 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.240 I think, like a lot of people during the pandemic, 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:19.280 he struggled to find full time work, kind of trying 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.920 to figure out what to do. He adopted a lot 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.160 of the common pandemic pastimes, like making sour dough bread 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:27.560 and renovating his house and that kind of thing to 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.240 try to kill time. Then we get to January six, 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:32.360 and like so many people around the world, he's just 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:36.200 transfixed by what's happening at the Capitol, appalled, outraged, and 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.520 also sort of curious and wants to learn more about 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:41.840 what had happened and what the origins of it were. 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:44.760 So pretty early on in the weeks after January six, 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:49.040 Chris Sigerson joined a kind of sort of loose network 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:53.000 of people who soon labeled themselves sedition hunters, and what 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:56.920 they did basically was sort through the reams of footage 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:00.280 and photographs that emerged from the Capitol riot to try 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.320 to figure out who was there and what those people did. 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.640 So the simplest form of that was just identifications. You know, 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.480 here are three different crowd photos, and look, I've identified 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:12.400 the same person in each of the shots. So it's 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:14.800 clear that originally they were just part of the Capital 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:16.919 and then they broke through these doors and they were 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:18.720 in the main verse. And that that's the type of 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.679 work that these people were doing. And in some cases 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.280 they'd share their work publicly on Twitter, and other cases 0:02:24.320 --> 0:02:26.799 they send it straight to the SBI or to investigative 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.120 journalists who are looking into the riot. And that was 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.000 the kind of initial wave of activism from these groups 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.600 where people arrested because of this information they found. Yeah, 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.560 I mean the way I became aware of these addition 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:39.520 hunting efforts is that I spent a lot of my 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.880 day reading through the arrest affidavits that are released every 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.560 time of Capital rioters is charged in federal court in Washington, 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.040 and so I started to notice these references to online 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.600 sedition hunting efforts. And that's because the sets were giving 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.720 credit to these online flutes, saying you know, look, this 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.120 person identified these three photos of the same guy and 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.560 in the red mack a hat who entered the capital, 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.520 and that allowed us to build up enough evidence to 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:09.000 arrest him. And so, yeah, they've been really amazingly successful 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:12.400 in kind of achieving concrete results. Is the FBI using 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.880 the footage that these sedition hunters are isolating. Yeah, and 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.560 in some cases there were images that were isolated by 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.720 the stition hunters that have been used by the FBI. 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:23.640 In other cases, the FBI will release a really clear 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.600 image of somebody in the sgian hunters will identify that 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.200 person in other videos and say, oh, look, you know 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.520 that person who you photographed walking into the Capitol was 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.400 also in this group that was spraying police officers. That 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:37.520 was the type of thing that these sort of slews 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:39.920 were trying to figure out. And since then, that's it's 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.680 evolved in the kind of more ambitious projects. I mean, 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:44.960 there are still people out there who yet to be identified, 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.600 and they're still online position hunters working on that. But 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.960 you've also got people who, having court through hundreds of 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:53.800 hours of footage over the course of months, are now 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.520 trying to figure out, like, what did this particular group 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.240 of Proud Boys do at the Capitol? Were they mobilizing 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.440 in a certain way block exits and prevent people from escaping. 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:04.960 Could that be a sign of coordination and planning, and 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.880 can I build a broader narrative about what did that 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.600 could help the FBI charge them with something more serious 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.200 like conspiracy. That's the type of work that's happening now. 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.719 Are they doing it because they like being amateur sleuths 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.839 or do they have deeper reasons? I think you've got 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.599 a mixture of motivation that there are certainly people who 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.159 just felt a kind of righteous outrage when they saw 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.640 the video of the storming of the capital in January 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:31.520 six and who just wanted to contribute to some effort 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.800 to hold people responsibles who felt like they had a 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.400 kind of civic obligation to help out. And there's a feeling, 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.440 especially now that Republicans and Congress have blocked the formation 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:46.080 of an independent bipartisan commission to investigate the capital riots, 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:48.640 that this might be one of the only ways to 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:52.479 hold people responsible. These sorts of informal techniques. Then there 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.080 are people who are just really fascinated on kind of 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.360 a nerdy level by the technical challenges of sorting through 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.440 all this stuff. You know, how to you organize hundreds 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.919 of hours of footage so it's easily searchable. How do 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.919 you create a database of these images so that people 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:09.919 who are doing those more complicated projects have somewhere to go? 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.680 You know, how do you mobilize these disparate efforts and 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.520 kind of channeled onto something really productive. So there are people, 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.479 I think who were drawn to it for that reason. Then, 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:20.599 you know, I think the pandemic played a role as well. 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.240 Like I was saying with Chris Dickerson, people had more 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.440 time on their hands, they might be out of work, 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.680 and they were able to dedicate times they wouldn't have 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.160 been in an ordinary year. That resorted efforts, so it's 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.160 really been a kind of wide range of things that's 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.479 sort of fueling the sedition hunting and some websites have 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:41.240 popped up, like sedition hunters dot org and jan six 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:45.000 Evidence dot com, and they have a lot of information. 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:51.120 They're well designed and often feature pretty complex and sophisticated tools. 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.279 I mean, one of these websites has a map where 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.839 basically fits of video footage have been matched with specific 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.080 GPS coordinates around the capital, so you can, you know, 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.599 navigate to the east side of the capital and locate 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.360 all the footage that was taken in that geographic area. 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:09.560 And one of the people I talked to is working 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.719 on a due feature for that map which would enable 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.400 users to sort of plug in new video as they 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.840 find it. To think it's moderated so that this map 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:22.080 is a kind of crowdsource thing that's constantly growing. Um 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.839 there's also a website that has the Facial Recognition Database 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.160 where you can drag and drop a photo and then 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:30.320 it will turn off other photos taken on January six 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:32.640 that appear to feature the same people, kind of allowing 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.479 you to do that cross referencing work that would otherwise 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.400 be pretty strenuous and time consuming. There is also a 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.560 website that had a kind of gallery of the suspects 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:45.160 with the best possible photos of to them, with hashtags 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.200 that identify them, that make it easy for people in 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.960 the online discourse to have the same sort of set 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.680 of reference and say, you know, oh look it's hashtag 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:56.520 red maga guy who's here? And even this other photo 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:01.000 as well. There have been some mistakes and false steps 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:04.840 made by the sedition hunters. Yes, there are major potential 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.280 tip faults with any crowdsourcing effort like this. If you 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.000 think back to the Boston Marathon bombing, when Reddit users 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:14.160 misidentified a suspect, that's the sort of risk the doubt 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:18.800 there when you have untrained, essentially vigilantes conducting the sort 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.720 of work in public. And so, yes, there was a 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:26.680 retired firefighter from Chicago who was falsely accused online of 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.559 participating in the riot. Actually he's hundreds of miles away 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:32.920 doing nothing. That's the type Chuck Norris was falsely accused 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.000 of being there as well. But I think for the 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.160 most part, these groups have done a pretty good job 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:41.240 of limiting the amount of misidentification that goes on, and 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.080 that's partly because they've learned from situations with the Boston 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.760 marathon bombing, and these sorts of efforts have matured over 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.320 the last decade. So you have major Twitter accounts that 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.400 are organizing and mobilizing these efforts, saying to their followers, 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:55.720 don't identify anybody publicly. You can refer to them by 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.520 their hashtags. That everybody in the community knows who you're 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.880 talking about. Is that you can lay both different photos 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.480 that's featuring the same person. But once you think you've 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.400 identified this person by name, and send that information to 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.000 the FBI or to an investigative journalists, to somebody who 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.760 think do the final work of fact checking. And you know, 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:14.600 for the most parts of these groups have stuck to that. 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.680 But look, it's an expansive network of people, some of 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.559 whom were untrained, and you can't control everybody or stop 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.400 people from breaking the rules, and some of them, maybe 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:27.240 all of them, have fears themselves of being identified. Explain 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.040 why a lot of people got into this, not for 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.360 personal glory, but just because they wanted to participate in 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.480 something like this and make a difference and fulfill some 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.280 sort of civic obligation. And so they kind of shy 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:43.200 away from the limelight, and also I think rightly fear 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.000 that were they to be publicly identified, they could be 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:50.240 harassed online by Trump supporters or right wing groups could 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.280 attempt to dock them to undermine their work in some way, 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:55.200 And so a lot of the people that I talked 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.280 to preferred not to be named, which was completely understandable. 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.800 How many hours of day did they work at this, 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.200 because it must have taken a mental toll for some 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:08.240 of them looking at these videos hour after hour. Yeah, 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:09.959 it's arranged. I mean I talked to stay at home 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.640 mom in the Pacific Northwest who would basically just spend 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.400 a few hours every evening working on it once she 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.199 was done with her regular daily obligations. But Chris diggrettson 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:23.400 an actor in Canada because he was out of work 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.200 with spending forty hours a week on this for the 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:29.000 first three months. Now, for some people, they've piled it 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:31.920 back as they've moved on from that kind of initial 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.480 rush of sorting through the footage and identifying people to 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.440 the harder work of putting together these more complex conspiracy narratives. 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.240 But you've still got people spending hours hours a day 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.679 on this and there's still a kind of fast community 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.520 that's fascinated by the riot. You describe it in your 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.840 story as an Internet subculture. How many people are involved 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:52.880 in this, I mean, is it hundreds, is it thousands? 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:55.600 That's sort of tough to estimate. I mean, if you 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:59.280 were looking at the total number of people who were 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.320 doing any form of tradition hunting at any point since 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:05.000 January six, I'm sure it's in the thousands. The number 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.559 who are still consideredly working on it is definitely much smaller, 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:11.640 but it's still a kind of vibrant community that has 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:15.880 its own sort of lingo and a set of hashtag 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.480 that it uses to communicate with each other. And it's 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.920 become a really statisticated effort. Like I said, they've created 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:26.280 this kind of online infrastructure, map, photo gallery, spacial recognition 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.280 databases that members of the community can use to do 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:33.480 these types of projects, which are becoming increasingly complicated in nature. 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.679 You also have various academics who are starting to explore 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.960 January six related issues in more details. And so there's 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.800 this kind of vibrant subculture that's forming around January six. 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.040 You know, you can almost parallel it something like the 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:50.439 Kennedy assassination and the sort of culture of obsessives that 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.720 developed around that. I mean, here you've got people sort 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:56.360 of fixating on the historical event and trying to understand 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:58.120 it is that they can and to fill in the 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.240 gaps that the government may have left it in its 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:04.720 own investigations. It's just fascinating. Thanks, David. That's Bloomberg Legal 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:09.880 reporter David Jaffee Bellini. The first of President Joe Biden's 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:14.400 judicial nominees were easily confirmed this week, beginning what Democrats 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.800 who control the Senate have promised will be a fast 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.720 moving effort to approve his picks for the federal bench. 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:22.720 Joining me is Carl Tobias, a professor at the University 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.679 of Richmond Law School, tell us about Julian Nils and 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:32.160 Regina Rodriguez. They were the first two district nominees who 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:38.240 were confirmed. Judge Nils will fill one of six vacancies 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.760 that's an emergency in the district of New Jersey. He's 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:46.839 a long time lawyer in the district who was an 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.160 Obama nominee but was never given a final vote. We 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:56.880 nominated by Biden and confirmed pretty overwhelmingly six to thirty. 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.839 Three to fill that emergency. And so that's great in 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:03.800 terms of the priority that was set by confirming him. 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.920 The emergencies need to be filled in New Jersey is 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.000 in an extreme situation because of the caseloads and the 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.600 many vacancies. Rodriguez was confirmed for the District of Colorado, 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.040 and I believe she fills an emergency as well. She 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:22.040 also was a nominee President Obama, but did not get 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.800 a hearing or committee vote. And she has been a 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:30.040 federal prosecutor as well as a partner in a major 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.760 law firm and done all kinds of interesting work in 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.880 the federal courts. It's interesting that neither of these got 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:41.160 votes in the Senate when they were nominated by Barack Obama, 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:45.560 but they did get Republican votes this time around. Yeah, 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:50.040 And I think I speak to the quality of the nominees. 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:55.520 They're both highly qualified, mainstream nominees with a lot of experience, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.280 and so Republicans don't really have a very good reason 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.680 to vote again, and so that's why you see relatively 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:08.960 bipartisan votes still. I mean, there were Republicans who voted no, um, 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.599 but they may just vote no on anyone unless the 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:18.280 person is perfect. Uh, that's what I think you see reflected. 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.200 But I would consider those votes for both of them 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:25.640 to be bipartisan. Uh, and strongly so. Senate Majority Leader 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:30.480 Chuck Schumer has teed up votes to limit debates on 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:36.120 Judge Katangi Brown Jackson, and say, Karashi, why is he 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:41.040 limiting debate because he can't get unanimous consent? You need 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:45.439 all hundred Senators to agree or not oppose before you 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:51.000 cut off debate, and because some Republicans are withholding their consent, 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:55.200 you have to have a cloture vote. Those have been 0:13:55.400 --> 0:14:00.120 used pretty frequently, both by Democrats with Trump nominees as 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:04.360 well as Republicans, and it's fairly standard. But there are 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.280 fifty votes if all the Democrats vote, and so there 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:12.560 shouldn't be an issue. So I think both Judge Jackson 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.960 and Judge Kareshi, who's a magistrate judge in New Jersey, 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:21.080 will have affirmative cloture votes, and then Karashi will have 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:25.800 a confirmation vote later today after two hours of debate. 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.600 You need thirty hours of debate for Judge Jackson because 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.480 she's a nominee to the DC Circuit. Of all the 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:36.480 Biden nominees, Totanji Brown Jackson is the one that I 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:41.000 think most people know about. Tell us why, Well, she's 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.920 been a district judge. President Obama appointed her in two 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.560 douzen thirteen. She's had a number of high profile cases. 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.360 One that most people talk about involved the subpoena for 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.120 Don McGann's testimony, where she wrote, I think a hundred 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:01.640 page opinion and she had had a very strong hearing, 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:06.160 answered clearly and comprehensively all of the question from both 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:10.560 sides of the aisle. And President Biden has promised to 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:15.200 name a black woman to the first vacancy that he filled, 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:19.040 and most people, let's say that she is the front 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.520 runner for that position. Also, the DC Circuit is the 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.280 second most important court in the country because of the 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:30.560 kinds of cases that appears on appeal. Senate Judiciary Committee 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:36.560 Chair Dick Durbin pushed back on the Republican litmus test 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:44.479 for nominees that they must be originalists. Explain what originalism 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:50.080 is and why the Republicans are so adamant about it 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:54.000 at this point. Well, what Republicans are having about is 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.320 a good question, and I think even strong originalists disagree 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.600 about exactly what the definition is. But I think general 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:07.600 notion is that originalists believe that you try to apply 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:12.800 the Constitution away that the framers of the Constitution would 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:17.400 have understood what they were doing in seventeen eighty nine, 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:23.360 and so that is somewhat controversial. But most people do 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.440 also agree that you look at what the original meaning 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:29.520 might have been to the extent you can tell what 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:34.400 it is. But others say that the Constitution is a 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.120 document that's meant to endure for over centuries, as it has. 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.520 And of course there are amendments, as Chuck Grassley said 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:46.480 and yesterday as a retort to the chair saying, all 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.840 of those amendments like the thirteen, fourteen and fifteen amendments, 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.160 also must be looked at in terms of the original 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:57.520 intent of the amendment strap and that's what the debate 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:01.280 is about. Carl. When did originals become a doctrine of 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:06.840 such importance to Republicans? I don't recall questions about originalism 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:12.360 being so important and Supreme Court confirmation hearings years ago 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.359 as compared to today, well, I think it is relatively 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:21.560 recent um and I think, for example, Justice Scalia was 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:27.120 a strong proponent of originalism as to have been others. UM. 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:34.800 And I think probably uh, partly it reflected some response 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:40.280 to the Warren Courts Juris Britain. Um. Since you know 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:46.159 the nifties, nineteen sixties, seventies, UM. You know when um 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:51.919 the for four fifth and sixth amendments and others uh, 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:59.680 fourteenth Amendments were um read somewhat broadly. UM. And so 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.520 there is in part originalism is a response to that. UM. 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:09.359 But as Durban said and others have said, uh, in 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:14.359 talking about originalism, UM, we know what the history of 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:18.199 the country was and and what the constitution looked like. Uh. 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:24.879 And indeed women uh and African Americans were excluded really 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:29.720 right because they didn't have votes and and slavery was 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.760 written into the constitution until eighteen o eight. And so 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.080 I think that's part of the response there. And of 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:40.280 course women got the vote in nineteen or twice. So 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:45.240 can you be an originalist and be what's considered a 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.720 liberal judge, I don't know. Are there any well? Sure? 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:54.760 I mean, I do think even the justices like Kagan, 0:18:55.680 --> 0:19:00.639 uh and Soto, Mayor and Brier would say that you 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:06.960 do look at the meaning originally, but they're not going 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:12.159 to feel bound by what the understanding was at the 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.640 time of the adoption of the Constitution, that's not all 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.840 you look at, but you know, I think it's They 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:23.119 would even agree, and many people who are moderate or 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:27.879 centrist or even liberal would agree that you still start 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.680 with the words and and understandings perhaps at the time 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:36.040 of adoption and then but again, as Marcel and others 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:40.920 said from the Supreme Court um that the Constitution is 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.399 a document for all times, and there has to be 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:49.359 some flexibility in terms of understandings at the time and 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:55.159 different understandings today as the nation evolved. At this hearing, 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.760 there were Unice Lely, who's nominated the Second Circuit, and 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:03.320 Veronica ross And who's nominated to the Tenth Circuit, tell 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:11.240 us about their backgrounds. Well. Biden pledged as a candidate 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:19.040 and sinned to nominate and confirm people whom are diverse 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:26.480 in terms of ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, ideology, and experience, 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:31.400 and the White House Council, thea Remus and the President 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:34.680 have stressed that with their first set of nominees and 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:39.440 the subsequent ones, the two who were for the appeals courts, 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:44.240 they both have law pretty long records as federal public 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:50.560 defenders and so they're basically criminal defense attorneys, and that 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:55.480 reflects experiential diversity that is sometimes lacking. For example, in 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:59.119 the second Circuit, Lee would be the only person who 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.840 brings that experience is to that important court. And so 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:09.240 that's what you see reflected in those two nominations. It's 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:13.000 no secret that many judges on both the district and 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:18.000 appellate bench in the federal system our former prosecutors usually 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:22.840 in U. S. Attorney offices, but uh, they overwhelmingly out 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:28.000 number the federal public defenders or are their criminal defense attorneys. 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:31.199 So trying to have some balance there in terms of experience, 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.400 and so that's what you see reflected in the backgrounds 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:39.160 of those two nominees. The Republicans on the committee were 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:44.960 focused on how these nominees with experience primarily in criminal cases, 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:49.800 would fair in cases involved in civil litigation, which is 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:55.040 more common on the appellate level. Does that really matter, Well, 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:59.800 that's a good question. There were some questions, especially from 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:07.600 Senator Cotton, about experiencing civil litigation, and I don't think 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:11.760 that there is a real problem here. Many people go 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:15.399 on the bench, both at the circuit and district level, 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:20.720 who come from a predominantly civil or predominantly criminal background, 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:25.720 and so the questions always asked or often asked by senators, um, 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:29.800 if you haven't engaged in that kind of practice, can 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:34.639 you um master the other times a practice? And to 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:38.520 me it's more critical perhaps at the district level than 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:41.240 it would be at the pellate level. And even the 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:47.480 questions that we're asked, for example, by Senator Cotton are 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.600 ones that are pretty basic that, um, you know, require 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:53.920 you to look either at the Constitution or the federal 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:58.000 rules of civil procedure, for example. And so I don't 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:02.680 think there is a problem that warrants a no vote. UM. 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:06.440 We'll see what happens, but I think that the senators 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:12.639 are probing, um, whether people have relevant experience. Rossman, on 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:15.720 the other hand, did say that she had engaged in 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:20.640 some civil practice prior to becoming a federal public defender. 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:26.000 So that's that's the issue, And I think most senators 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:31.000 are satisfied that Lee is extremely intelligent and done incredible 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:34.800 work as a federal public defender state public defender for 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:40.120 a couple of decades. Republican Senator John Kennedy was very 0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:43.920 critical of Lee because she said she doesn't have a 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:47.480 personal judicial philosophy, and he said, you're going to be 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:50.160 on the United States Court of Appeals if you're confirmed, 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:52.720 and you don't have a judicial philosophy about how the 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:56.560 United States Constitution should be interpreted. I mean, do you 0:23:56.760 --> 0:24:00.280 need to have a judicial philosophy? Well, a lot of 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.879 people think you don't necessarily have to have one. And 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:07.119 he really wasn't very clear about what he meant uh 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:13.480 in asking a question, and so the nominee I think 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:17.720 wasn't sufficiently responsive to him what he wanted. But I 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:20.439 think he was looking for a commitment. Are you an originalist? 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:26.520 And that's in a way an unfair question um in 0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:29.400 the sense that you can't answer it in a way 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:34.560 that necessarily satisfies the question to some extent, because it 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:38.879 it's subtle, and originalism means different things to different people. 0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:44.359 And so I think she was saying basically that she 0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:48.160 understands about conciitutional interpretation, but she doesn't have a philosophy 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:50.760 of it. She's not doesn't come to it as an 0:24:50.760 --> 0:24:55.480 originalist or the other kind of epithet that conservatives often 0:24:55.720 --> 0:24:59.800 used is the living Constitution. Kennedy didn't say that, but 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:03.879 I think it was implicit in his question, and again, 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:09.200 as durban point has pointed out, UM the Republican nominees 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:14.240 from Trump, Austen refused to answer the question. Questions of 0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:20.800 that sort as well coming from Democrats about UM their philosophies. 0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:24.080 So I think what we're seeing a lot of times 0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:27.320 is just the reverse of what we saw with Trump 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:32.720 is Democrats are also being cautious and using UM the 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:36.240 same kind of defensive tactics to protect their nominee, which 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:40.480 shouldn't be surprised. The Senators who oversee the federal judiciary 0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:45.160