WEBVTT - Palais de Triomphe 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.320 Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Warning, 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:09.080 this episode contains discussion of sexual and domestic abuse. Listener 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:20.400 discretion is advised. The landscape of my childhood was just poverty, abuse, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:25.079 a fundamentalist religion. I mean, I can't think of many 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:30.600 redeeming qualities of my childhood. If a tough childhood creates character, 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.680 I have so much character. You don't get to choose 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:36.040 your family, and whoever choose my family for me shows 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.879 so you know, the poorest one with you know, the 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:46.080 most extreme religion's completely dysfunctional and just extreme abuse. Also, 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:50.840 my my father was extremely violent and I suffered physical 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:56.040 and sexual abuse when I was a child. That's Freddie 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:00.840 Rice activists against forced marriage, child marriage, and teenage marriage. 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:06.080 Activism tends to spring from moral outrage, and sometimes that 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:10.520 moral outrage is deeply personal. Phreds is a story that 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:30.880 contains layer after layer of secrecy, isolation, violence, and fundamentalism. 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.720 I'm Danny Shapiro and this is family secrets, the secrets 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.279 that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:45.720 and the secrets we keep from ourselves. One of the 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:50.720 most immediately obvious aspects of the ultra Orthodox Jewish community 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.720 and where I grew up in Brooklyn. The first thing 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.320 you notice is the large family sizes. I was from 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.520 a family of six, and that was kind of a 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.680 small family, believe it or not. So yes, a lot 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.840 of siblings and nieces and nephews and cousins and anna's 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:12.800 and uncle's communities really really important. I grew up really 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.480 very much cut off from the outside world. I didn't 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.160 have my own bedroom, I didn't have my own space. 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:21.880 I mean, it was always around other people, and those 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:27.240 other people were always also ultra Orthodox Jewish. And people 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.640 are surprised to learn just how cut off I was 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.360 from the outside world. You know, I was born in 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.079 in the seventies, or you know, grew up in eighties 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:41.200 and nineties in Brooklyn and no television, no radio, no newspapers, 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.639 no no real contact with anybody who wasn't also the 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:49.120 ultra Orthodox Jewish. So I didn't know basic things about culture, 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:52.080 and it was a lot to learn when I left, 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.919 and people were shocked. You don't know what the muppets are, 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.840 You've never you don't know who the Beatles are. You 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.239 don't know that Hamburgers are not made out of him. 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.239 You know, I did not know any of that, so 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:09.239 how would I know? English was my first language always, 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.320 which made it a lot easier when I was leaving 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:14.519 the community. For those for whom Yiddish is their first 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.679 language is much more difficult. And actually my my mother 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:21.040 had grown up in Hasidic family in Williamsburg and her 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.920 first language was Yiddish. And my father was believe it 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.960 or not, Cuban. He was born in Havana on His 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.280 first language was Spanish, but at home we always spoke 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:34.960 English and I speak very little Yiddish and not a 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:38.560 word of Spanish. Did your father was he also raised 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:42.800 in um an Orthodox Jewish community in Cuba. Yes, absolutely, yes, 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.760 the fundamentalism and my family goes back many, many generations. 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:49.520 Where were you in the order of the birth order 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:53.880 of siblings? I was second to youngest, so I got 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:58.240 exactly zero attention, which in a family that abusive and dysfunctional, 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.200 probably best case scenario. The school that I went to 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:06.000 was an ultra Orthodox Jewish school, Yeshiva Brooklyn, all girls school. 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.400 There was an Yeshiva Brooklyn for boys, but that one 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.320 was two blocks away in a separate building, so yes, 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:16.600 completely cut off from boys and men. So yes, um, 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.800 everywhere we went, the stores that I shopped in, any 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:21.960 business I had to do, and if I was allowed 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.359 to get a job, which was fairly limited, then it 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:29.440 had to be with an orthofox Jewish boss. When I 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.360 say very limited access to the outside, well we're talking 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.440 about when I showed the city bus driver my bus pass. 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.000 That was like the most contact I had with somebody 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:42.200 who wasn't from my safe community. What were the more 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:50.000 raise and customs around the opposite sex At any event 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:54.039 or party or religious gathering, a synagogue, any any time 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.440 there was there were people coming together, the men and 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:01.640 the women were completely separated, either in a effort room 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.479 or the women were behind a curtain of afiza uh 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:11.800 real separation barrier. And it was very very very explicit 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.200 that this was not separate but equal to the extent 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.800 that that exists. This is not separate but equal. This 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.479 is the women are less than the men. Are the 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:26.120 ones who are partaking in this religious activity or the 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.560 prayer or whatever party it is, and the women are 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:33.880 there as observers and bystanders, and they better be silent. 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.039 They should not be seen, they should not be heard. 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.479 And to give you a sense of just how explicit 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.160 the misogyny is in that community. In the Prayer Book, 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.680 it shows that every morning men make a blessing they 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:50.560 thank God for not making them a non Jew, a slave, 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:55.039 or a woman. And then for women, when the men 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.680 are saying, oh God, thank you Lord for not making 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:02.480 me a woman or a slaver or non Jew, women 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:04.800 make a blessing, thank you God for making me as 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:09.039 you will. It was it was, you know, like, oh boy. 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.440 And then imagine the message that sends as as a 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.479 girl when I was seeing this every morning in my 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.240 prior book and knowing that the men and boys were 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.640 making this blessing thanking the Lord for not making them 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.520 someone like me, which they put in the same category 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.800 as a slave or a non Jew. Because it just 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.680 gives you a sense of also the xenophobia there, like 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.600 anyone who's not one of us is is the equivalent 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:34.720 of a slave. Just how offensive all of that is. 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:38.279 It's so if there's so much to unpack there looking back, 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:41.960 I think one of the most infuriating aspects of that 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.600 is that when when we as girls would ask well, 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.440 why why are men thanking God for not making them 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.600 a non duous slave or a woman? What does that 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:54.240 mean about me as a girl or a woman? The 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.960 response was the ultimate and gas lighting. The response was, 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:02.080 it's because women are so special. Oh yeah, I mean 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.360 that totally explains it. That's why all the men thank 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:06.400 God for not making a monogious slave or a woman. 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:10.440 Is because women are so special. I feel better now. 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.880 As a child, those certain elements of the religion felt 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.760 confusing and extreme to her. FREDI doesn't exactly clock the 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:25.200 misogyny and xenophobia early on. She doesn't clock the abuse 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.240 that's going on at home either. How could she, It's 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:33.400 all she knows. This is the thing about being born 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.480 into an abusive family, especially when you don't have a 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.640 TV where you see the fake families that are all 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.040 happy and sweet. You don't really have a sense that 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.280 what's happening to you is not normal. There is no 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.440 real sense of, oh wait, I'm not supposed to be 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.040 afraid in my own home. I'm not supposed to be 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.760 physically assaulted in my own home. My mother shouldn't be 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.160 pushed down the stairs and being with a stick like 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.520 this shouldn't be happening. There's a very little sense of 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.960 that when you're a child born into it. So that 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:06.080 part I really did not question or complain about. And 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:11.240 even the misogynistic aspects of the religion. I questioned some 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.880 of it and got into trouble because one of the 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:16.440 roles in that community is the messages you're a woman, 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.560 shut the funk up, you have a vagina. Who are 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.280 you to ask questions? So even the small questions that 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.480 I asked, I got into trouble for asking. But also 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:30.320 I asked them not as uh, well, this is all bullshit. 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.400 I don't want any part of it. It was you know. 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:37.040 I asked them based on the premise that obviously, this 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.320 is my religion, this is my life in it, this 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:41.880 is the right way, this is what God wants. There 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:44.240 is a God. I believe that back then as well, 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:46.719 And um, you know, I'm not going to lead, I'm 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:48.920 not going to rebel. None of that. That didn't even 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:54.000 occurred to me. So leaving her religion or her home 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:57.600 never occurs to Freddie. At this time, her mom is 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:01.320 told to leave her marriage. If is almost unheard of 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.600 in the community, but the rabbis know how violent her 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:08.880 father is. The rabbis tell Freddy's mom, listen, he's going 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.560 to kill you. He's going to kill the kids. You 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.920 have to get out. Even then when she left, because 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:20.120 of the deeply misogynistic laws in that religion, only a 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.520 man is allowed to grant a get a Jewish divorce. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.120 A woman doesn't have that right. She can ask for 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:29.560 a divorce, but he can just say no, and then 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.320 what happens to hers, She just becomes what's known in 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.559 that community as an aguna, a changed woman, a woman 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:40.720 who is literally chained to a dead marriage and forever 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.520 a second class citizen. I think second class is too generous. 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.319 I mean, we're talking about someone who is just further 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.720 abused by the entire community, really really looked down upon. 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:53.959 Being single on that community is already considered shameful, but 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:58.360 being an aguna, everybody will absolutely blame the victim in 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.920 that situation and just treat and now gun not like 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.760 just complete hurt, as if it's somehow her fault. And 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.920 that's exactly what happened to my mother for seven years. Obviously, 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.880 this violent, abusive man was not going to just willingly 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.360 let her out of this abusive, violent marriage. And I 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.960 saw the way the community treated her, and I heard 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:20.240 her crying herself to sleep, and that I used to 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.680 as a child, remember hearing her sobbing when she thought 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:28.960 that we couldn't hear her, And I questioned that. I 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.040 questioned that, why, why, how does it make sense? How 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:34.240 does it make sense that a woman can't grant to get? 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.839 And then I remember asking, also, why can't a woman 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.480 say kaddish? That's the prayer for the dead. There was 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.720 no one in my life that had died that I 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.080 wanted to say kattage for but it just it just 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:48.600 didn't make sense to me. And I would ask these 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.400 questions and the response was, you know, shut the funk 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:53.280 up and set the funk down. And by the way, 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.520 why aren't you cooking and cleaning? You're a woman or 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:03.280 a girl. So there was no answer. Freddie is four 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.280 when her mother takes her and her siblings away from 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.160 her father. They flee with the clothing on their backs, 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.480 first to Los Angeles and then back to Brooklyn to 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.840 live with Freddy's grandparents. This is where she spends the 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.120 rest of her childhood. She's eleven when her father finally 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:24.679 gives her mother a get a Jewish divorce. Why did 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.920 he finally give her a get? My understanding is that 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.800 someone convinced him some clever person convinced him that if 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.760 he gave my mother a get, he would show her 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.320 what a nice person he was and she would come 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:40.880 back to him. So you're like eleven or twelve years 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.840 old when your mother is no longer an abuna, right right, 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:48.240 So but then, yeah, she's not an aguna, but now 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.640 she's a divorce which is almost as bad in that community. 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.360 Not as bad, I mean agunas is a whole new level, 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:59.839 or a really low level. But even as a divorce woman, 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:02.960 that the abuse that she got, the treatment that she 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:09.520 got was absolutely horrifying. So were you sort of at 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:14.760 that point watching your older siblings start to get married, 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:17.439 start to have families. I mean, if you're if you're 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:19.960 the second to the youngest when you were a teenager, 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.160 was that starting to happen around you? Yes, when I 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:27.720 was twelve, my oldest sister got engaged. She was nineteen, 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.160 so she was really old. It was time for her 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.800 to marry. And by the way, very very difficult for 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.800 my mother to arrange all of our marriages because we 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.280 are now the children of divorce and that's just so 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:41.320 looked down upon in that community. So not only was 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.600 my mother punished for being first snaguna and then a divorcee. 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:46.800 But then we were all punished. I mean, I had 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.040 girls in my class at Yeshiva of Brooklyn whose parents 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:51.920 would not let them talk to me. That's all. You 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.640 can't talk to Fred, her parents are divorced. It was 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.959 that extreme. And the other thing that didn't occur to 0:12:58.040 --> 0:12:59.880 me at the time, and looking back at this, the 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.400 really really gets to me is my mother's marriage was 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.440 arranged or forced, whatever you want to call it. I 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.920 call it force because there's no there's no real opportunity 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.560 for either party to consent to his marriage. So her 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:15.840 parents forced her into this marriage to a stranger, and 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.640 it turned out to be I mean, such a horrifying, 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:25.360 terrible experience for her. She mean, she was abuse every 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.199 single day for the fourteen years that she lived with 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:33.040 my father. He tortured her. And yet less than a 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.080 year after she finally got her religious of force and 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.680 got out of that, she was already forcing all of 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.000 her children into marriages to strangers. And I don't think 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:46.000 it ever occurred to her that this system doesn't make sense. 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:50.280 This is a problematic system. You cannot just marry people 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.679 off without their consent to strangers and then have it 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.520 turned out well. So yes, I went from watching her 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.600 get her get and then to my sister being married 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.600 off to a stranger, and then, as far as I know, 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.360 my oldest sister, her marriage was not, as far as 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.240 I know, an unhappy marriage, although I wouldn't necessarily know that, 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:12.840 But she got pregnant right away, which is was supposed 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.480 to happen in that community. And her oldest son was 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:22.480 born with really profound disability, very very very sick, and 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:24.800 spent most of his life in a hospital and a home. 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:28.000 He couldn't see, he couldn't walk, he couldn't talk, and 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:31.080 he um and he died when he was eighteen. So 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.400 I was twelve or thirteen when he was born. Yes see, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.440 this was my first nephew, and I just I just 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.320 fell in love with YESI I still remember the first 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.520 time I saw him in the hospital, hooked up to 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.840 all kinds of machines. He had his first surgery as 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.640 soon as he was born. He had hydrocephalus, and back 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:54.560 then the treatments for that we're really limited. And I 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.840 just fell in love with him. This is what I 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.320 was witnessing. My sister was twenty years old. And she 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:06.720 has a son with profound disabilities that she now has 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:11.360 to care for when she's because she's basically a child herself. 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.440 And then she has to keep having children because that's 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.560 what's required in that community. So I mean, she continued 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.240 having children and then trying to to juggle all of 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:24.520 that when she herself had not even had a chance 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:32.000 to grow up. I mean, it's just so heartbreaking. In 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.120 the bridal classes that are mandatory for all engaged women 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.960 in the community, women are taught that you are required 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.160 to have unprotected sex with your spouse on a monthly basis, 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.120 and it's time for when you're ovulating, so it's forced sex, 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:50.480 forced unprotected sex, which leads to forced parenthood. Freddie watches 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:52.960 her sister go through this and is aware that before 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.720 long she'll be paired off with someone too. I mean, 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.280 I was just waiting to be married off, and I 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.080 had no hopes and dreams for the future other than 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:04.960 I want to be a wife and a mother, because 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.720 that's all I was taught. There's a term for a 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.320 girl when she reaches high school in the Orthodox Jewish community. 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.320 They call her a columnate. All it's just a bridal girl, 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.520 just a girl waiting to become a bride. That's all 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:22.400 really I was. I was required to sign two different 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.000 forms promising that I wouldn't take driver's head and promising 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.000 that I wouldn't take s A T S. It's very, 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:33.160 very very cheerfully orchestrated that as a girl, I was 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.880 completely financially dependent on my what would have been parents. 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:38.560 My father was out of the picture by then, so 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.400 it was completely financially dependent on my mother. Had to 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.760 live in her home, not allowed to move out on 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.000 my own. The only way I could move out was 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.000 when I got married, so that I was just never 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:53.360 allowed to become independent. And there's also lack of education. 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.040 Wasn't allowed to get a real education at issue for 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.560 worklen and we learned how to cook and sew, and 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.680 I was not allowed to go to college. So all 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:08.960 of this really just conspires against you. We'll be right back. 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.400 So when Freddie is a teenager, the official matchmaking process 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:29.560 kicks off. She's seen this play out for her older 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.240 siblings and now it's her time to be forced into 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:35.879 a relationship with a stranger, a partner chose by someone else, 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:41.399 the matchmaker. There is no courtship, it's just a match. 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:48.320 I was one of those couples, those hilariously awkward couples 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.280 sitting five feet away from each other in the lounge 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:57.240 of a hotel, drinking soda and asking, so, how many 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.840 children do you want to have? What's your favorite? So yeah, okay, 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.160 let's get married. Well it's not even let's get married, 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:07.879 because that's decide, but the matchmaker, I mean that whole exercise. 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.600 I shouldn't laugh, because there is really nothing funny about 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:15.080 forcing strangers to marriage when they've never been allowed to 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.199 be alone together. So there has to be in that 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.080 public place, never allowed to have any physical contact, and 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:24.280 they have a matchmaker arranging the whole thing. And by 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:25.840 the time you get to go on on one of 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.280 those they call that a date. I would really really, 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.400 I think that's a bit of a stretch to call 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.360 that kind of meeting a date. But by the time 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.240 you get to go on this so called date, both 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.239 families have all and the matchmaker have already decided this 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.760 match is happening. So it's really it's not do you 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.840 want to marry him, it's you're gonna marry him? Right, 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:50.560 And to say no to that is incredibly, incredibly difficult. 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:56.280 And especially there's some socioeconomic element to this. So if 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.560 my parents had not been divorced, if I had a 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:03.200 father who was a famous rabbi or was very wealthy, 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:07.800 then I probably would have felt comfortable saying no to 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:10.720 to a few matches. So if you know, the first 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.359 guy that that the matchmaker matches me with, perhaps I 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.760 could have said no, I don't I don't like his nose, 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.359 or I don't like you know, he likes sprite and 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:22.200 I like Coca cola, so obviously we're not compatible. Uh 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.840 you know. Perhaps, But because I was from such a 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:28.040 poor family and my parents were divorced, I knew if 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.040 I said no, there was probably not going to be 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:36.960 another match. And the other thing is there's no real 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.320 basis to say no. I mean, you know, I joke 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.840 about how he likes sprite and I like Coca cola. 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:43.960 I mean, really, other than that, how much can you 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.080 possibly get to know somebody sitting in that lounge five 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.120 ft apart from each other, you know, talking about how 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.000 many children do you want to have and what's your 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:56.440 favorite soda? There's very little that you can learn. I 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.880 remember talking to this one woman who said she's also 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:04.000 grew up a fundamentalist Hasidic community that she came from, 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.800 and she told her mother after this, she actually got 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:09.120 to meet this guy for a half hour, and by then, 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.280 like the wine had been pouring, the cookies had been 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.119 put out. I mean, both families were there. They were 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:14.720 just waiting for her to say yes. And after the 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.720 half hour meeting, she went back into the kitchen and 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:19.560 from the living room she tilled her mother, I just 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:23.440 I just don't like him. And her mother said, how 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.640 could you not like him? You don't even know him, 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:29.400 and not understanding the irony of what she was saying, like, 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.000 you can marry this guy, but you can't not like him. 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.040 You have no basis not to like him. You've met 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:35.800 him for half hour. How could you not like him? 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:37.800 And there's a lot I had a lot of that 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.720 feeling as well. How can I say no? My mother 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:42.320 has said this is the right guy for me, His 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:43.919 family has said this is the right guy for me. 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:48.040 The matchmaker I always compare the matchmakers to use car salespeople. 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:50.520 They get paid only if there's an engagement, so they 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.720 go hard. I mean this, They're they're gonna make sure 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.280 that this match happens. In my case. It was my 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:58.760 mother's first cousin, and she's telling me, this is the 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:01.440 right guy for you. And it's very much a sense 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:03.320 of I've never dated before, I don't know, I don't 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.679 know anything. I mean, I'm a nineteen year old, clueless virgin. 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.760 I'm gonna turn twenty this year. And then you don't 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:11.920 want to turn twenty and still be single. In that community, 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:15.960 that's basically a death sentence. When I saw him, we 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.199 remember him standing there on the porch, and my initial 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.280 instinct was, oh God, this is not at all what 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.159 the matchmaker had promised had told me. He was unkempt, 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.720 his suit was like a little disheveled. I I'm very 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:31.800 into clothing, like guy. I always liked to dress well. 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:34.520 I always always really put together, and he was just 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:38.760 kind of a mess and he was pretty significantly overweight 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:43.359 and just just not at all what the matchmaker had 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:46.159 said to me. And I remember thinking, God, this was 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.600 not what I would have wanted. But then it's always 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.600 so drummed into you. I had been taught for years 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.119 and years physical attraction. That's something the guy um that 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.000 the non Jews the other that's what they worry about. 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:03.280 That's not something that we care about. Sexual attraction. That's 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:07.400 not a thing. Physical attraction, physical appearance. That means nothing 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:11.000 and absolutely nothing to do with anything. And by the way, 0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:13.800 it wasn't This is how you make a decision. Don't 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.399 worry about physical appearance. Instead, look at X, Y and Z. 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:19.520 There was no look at X, Y and Z. No 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.280 one ever had a conversation with me about, all right, 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:24.200 you're gonna get to meet the guy at the lounge 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.280 of the hotel. Here's what you should ask him, here's 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:29.560 what you should look at, here's what you should think about. 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:33.399 I had no idea, and it didn't even occur to 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:35.320 me to ask, and it didn't occur to anyone around 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:38.600 me to tell me that. I was just basically it was, 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.520 you know, checking the box on the page. Okay, did 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:45.520 the matchmaker come forward, yes? Did his family say yes? Check? 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:48.680 Did her family say yes? Check? Did they meet three 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:52.880 times in the hotel lobby and talk about soda preferences? Check? 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:54.639 All right, and they can get engaged. I mean, it 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:58.480 was just really, it was just ridiculous. And in fact, 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:01.640 the average number of these fake dates in the community 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.200 at is seven. By the way, and I can't remember 0:23:04.200 --> 0:23:06.359 exactly how many dates we had, but it was over 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:10.760 a period of something like eight weeks. And on two 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:13.919 of these so called dates, this guy got into a 0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:17.200 physical fight with strangers on the street. There was one 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:20.080 time that he didn't like the way a guy looked 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.520 at me, and they got into a physical altercation. And 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:25.320