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Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Warning,

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Speaker 1: this episode contains discussion of sexual and domestic abuse. Listener

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Speaker 1: discretion is advised. The landscape of my childhood was just poverty, abuse,

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Speaker 1: a fundamentalist religion. I mean, I can't think of many

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Speaker 1: redeeming qualities of my childhood. If a tough childhood creates character,

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Speaker 1: I have so much character. You don't get to choose

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Speaker 1: your family, and whoever choose my family for me shows

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Speaker 1: so you know, the poorest one with you know, the

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Speaker 1: most extreme religion's completely dysfunctional and just extreme abuse. Also,

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Speaker 1: my my father was extremely violent and I suffered physical

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Speaker 1: and sexual abuse when I was a child. That's Freddie

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Speaker 1: Rice activists against forced marriage, child marriage, and teenage marriage.

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Speaker 1: Activism tends to spring from moral outrage, and sometimes that

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Speaker 1: moral outrage is deeply personal. Phreds is a story that

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Speaker 1: contains layer after layer of secrecy, isolation, violence, and fundamentalism.

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Speaker 1: I'm Danny Shapiro and this is family secrets, the secrets

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Speaker 1: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others,

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Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. One of the

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Speaker 1: most immediately obvious aspects of the ultra Orthodox Jewish community

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Speaker 1: and where I grew up in Brooklyn. The first thing

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Speaker 1: you notice is the large family sizes. I was from

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Speaker 1: a family of six, and that was kind of a

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Speaker 1: small family, believe it or not. So yes, a lot

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Speaker 1: of siblings and nieces and nephews and cousins and anna's

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Speaker 1: and uncle's communities really really important. I grew up really

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Speaker 1: very much cut off from the outside world. I didn't

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Speaker 1: have my own bedroom, I didn't have my own space.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was always around other people, and those

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Speaker 1: other people were always also ultra Orthodox Jewish. And people

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Speaker 1: are surprised to learn just how cut off I was

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Speaker 1: from the outside world. You know, I was born in

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Speaker 1: in the seventies, or you know, grew up in eighties

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Speaker 1: and nineties in Brooklyn and no television, no radio, no newspapers,

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Speaker 1: no no real contact with anybody who wasn't also the

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Speaker 1: ultra Orthodox Jewish. So I didn't know basic things about culture,

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Speaker 1: and it was a lot to learn when I left,

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Speaker 1: and people were shocked. You don't know what the muppets are,

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Speaker 1: You've never you don't know who the Beatles are. You

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Speaker 1: don't know that Hamburgers are not made out of him.

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Speaker 1: You know, I did not know any of that, so

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Speaker 1: how would I know? English was my first language always,

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Speaker 1: which made it a lot easier when I was leaving

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Speaker 1: the community. For those for whom Yiddish is their first

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Speaker 1: language is much more difficult. And actually my my mother

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Speaker 1: had grown up in Hasidic family in Williamsburg and her

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Speaker 1: first language was Yiddish. And my father was believe it

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Speaker 1: or not, Cuban. He was born in Havana on His

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Speaker 1: first language was Spanish, but at home we always spoke

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Speaker 1: English and I speak very little Yiddish and not a

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Speaker 1: word of Spanish. Did your father was he also raised

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Speaker 1: in um an Orthodox Jewish community in Cuba. Yes, absolutely, yes,

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Speaker 1: the fundamentalism and my family goes back many, many generations.

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Speaker 1: Where were you in the order of the birth order

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Speaker 1: of siblings? I was second to youngest, so I got

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Speaker 1: exactly zero attention, which in a family that abusive and dysfunctional,

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Speaker 1: probably best case scenario. The school that I went to

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Speaker 1: was an ultra Orthodox Jewish school, Yeshiva Brooklyn, all girls school.

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Speaker 1: There was an Yeshiva Brooklyn for boys, but that one

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Speaker 1: was two blocks away in a separate building, so yes,

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Speaker 1: completely cut off from boys and men. So yes, um,

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Speaker 1: everywhere we went, the stores that I shopped in, any

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Speaker 1: business I had to do, and if I was allowed

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Speaker 1: to get a job, which was fairly limited, then it

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Speaker 1: had to be with an orthofox Jewish boss. When I

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Speaker 1: say very limited access to the outside, well we're talking

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Speaker 1: about when I showed the city bus driver my bus pass.

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Speaker 1: That was like the most contact I had with somebody

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Speaker 1: who wasn't from my safe community. What were the more

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Speaker 1: raise and customs around the opposite sex At any event

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Speaker 1: or party or religious gathering, a synagogue, any any time

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Speaker 1: there was there were people coming together, the men and

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Speaker 1: the women were completely separated, either in a effort room

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Speaker 1: or the women were behind a curtain of afiza uh

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Speaker 1: real separation barrier. And it was very very very explicit

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Speaker 1: that this was not separate but equal to the extent

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Speaker 1: that that exists. This is not separate but equal. This

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Speaker 1: is the women are less than the men. Are the

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Speaker 1: ones who are partaking in this religious activity or the

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Speaker 1: prayer or whatever party it is, and the women are

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Speaker 1: there as observers and bystanders, and they better be silent.

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Speaker 1: They should not be seen, they should not be heard.

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Speaker 1: And to give you a sense of just how explicit

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Speaker 1: the misogyny is in that community. In the Prayer Book,

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Speaker 1: it shows that every morning men make a blessing they

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Speaker 1: thank God for not making them a non Jew, a slave,

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Speaker 1: or a woman. And then for women, when the men

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Speaker 1: are saying, oh God, thank you Lord for not making

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Speaker 1: me a woman or a slaver or non Jew, women

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Speaker 1: make a blessing, thank you God for making me as

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Speaker 1: you will. It was it was, you know, like, oh boy.

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Speaker 1: And then imagine the message that sends as as a

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Speaker 1: girl when I was seeing this every morning in my

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Speaker 1: prior book and knowing that the men and boys were

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Speaker 1: making this blessing thanking the Lord for not making them

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Speaker 1: someone like me, which they put in the same category

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Speaker 1: as a slave or a non Jew. Because it just

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Speaker 1: gives you a sense of also the xenophobia there, like

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Speaker 1: anyone who's not one of us is is the equivalent

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Speaker 1: of a slave. Just how offensive all of that is.

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Speaker 1: It's so if there's so much to unpack there looking back,

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Speaker 1: I think one of the most infuriating aspects of that

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Speaker 1: is that when when we as girls would ask well,

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Speaker 1: why why are men thanking God for not making them

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Speaker 1: a non duous slave or a woman? What does that

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Speaker 1: mean about me as a girl or a woman? The

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Speaker 1: response was the ultimate and gas lighting. The response was,

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Speaker 1: it's because women are so special. Oh yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: that totally explains it. That's why all the men thank

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Speaker 1: God for not making a monogious slave or a woman.

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Speaker 1: Is because women are so special. I feel better now.

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Speaker 1: As a child, those certain elements of the religion felt

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Speaker 1: confusing and extreme to her. FREDI doesn't exactly clock the

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Speaker 1: misogyny and xenophobia early on. She doesn't clock the abuse

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Speaker 1: that's going on at home either. How could she, It's

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Speaker 1: all she knows. This is the thing about being born

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Speaker 1: into an abusive family, especially when you don't have a

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Speaker 1: TV where you see the fake families that are all

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Speaker 1: happy and sweet. You don't really have a sense that

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Speaker 1: what's happening to you is not normal. There is no

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Speaker 1: real sense of, oh wait, I'm not supposed to be

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Speaker 1: afraid in my own home. I'm not supposed to be

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Speaker 1: physically assaulted in my own home. My mother shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: pushed down the stairs and being with a stick like

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Speaker 1: this shouldn't be happening. There's a very little sense of

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Speaker 1: that when you're a child born into it. So that

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Speaker 1: part I really did not question or complain about. And

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Speaker 1: even the misogynistic aspects of the religion. I questioned some

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Speaker 1: of it and got into trouble because one of the

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Speaker 1: roles in that community is the messages you're a woman,

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Speaker 1: shut the funk up, you have a vagina. Who are

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Speaker 1: you to ask questions? So even the small questions that

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Speaker 1: I asked, I got into trouble for asking. But also

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Speaker 1: I asked them not as uh, well, this is all bullshit.

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Speaker 1: I don't want any part of it. It was you know.

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Speaker 1: I asked them based on the premise that obviously, this

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Speaker 1: is my religion, this is my life in it, this

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Speaker 1: is the right way, this is what God wants. There

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Speaker 1: is a God. I believe that back then as well,

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Speaker 1: And um, you know, I'm not going to lead, I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to rebel. None of that. That didn't even

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Speaker 1: occurred to me. So leaving her religion or her home

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Speaker 1: never occurs to Freddie. At this time, her mom is

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Speaker 1: told to leave her marriage. If is almost unheard of

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Speaker 1: in the community, but the rabbis know how violent her

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Speaker 1: father is. The rabbis tell Freddy's mom, listen, he's going

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Speaker 1: to kill you. He's going to kill the kids. You

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Speaker 1: have to get out. Even then when she left, because

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Speaker 1: of the deeply misogynistic laws in that religion, only a

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Speaker 1: man is allowed to grant a get a Jewish divorce.

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Speaker 1: A woman doesn't have that right. She can ask for

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Speaker 1: a divorce, but he can just say no, and then

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Speaker 1: what happens to hers, She just becomes what's known in

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Speaker 1: that community as an aguna, a changed woman, a woman

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Speaker 1: who is literally chained to a dead marriage and forever

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Speaker 1: a second class citizen. I think second class is too generous.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about someone who is just further

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Speaker 1: abused by the entire community, really really looked down upon.

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Speaker 1: Being single on that community is already considered shameful, but

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Speaker 1: being an aguna, everybody will absolutely blame the victim in

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Speaker 1: that situation and just treat and now gun not like

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Speaker 1: just complete hurt, as if it's somehow her fault. And

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Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened to my mother for seven years. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: this violent, abusive man was not going to just willingly

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Speaker 1: let her out of this abusive, violent marriage. And I

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Speaker 1: saw the way the community treated her, and I heard

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Speaker 1: her crying herself to sleep, and that I used to

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Speaker 1: as a child, remember hearing her sobbing when she thought

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Speaker 1: that we couldn't hear her, And I questioned that. I

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Speaker 1: questioned that, why, why, how does it make sense? How

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Speaker 1: does it make sense that a woman can't grant to get?

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Speaker 1: And then I remember asking, also, why can't a woman

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Speaker 1: say kaddish? That's the prayer for the dead. There was

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Speaker 1: no one in my life that had died that I

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Speaker 1: wanted to say kattage for but it just it just

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Speaker 1: didn't make sense to me. And I would ask these

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Speaker 1: questions and the response was, you know, shut the funk

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Speaker 1: up and set the funk down. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: why aren't you cooking and cleaning? You're a woman or

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Speaker 1: a girl. So there was no answer. Freddie is four

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Speaker 1: when her mother takes her and her siblings away from

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Speaker 1: her father. They flee with the clothing on their backs,

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Speaker 1: first to Los Angeles and then back to Brooklyn to

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Speaker 1: live with Freddy's grandparents. This is where she spends the

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Speaker 1: rest of her childhood. She's eleven when her father finally

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Speaker 1: gives her mother a get a Jewish divorce. Why did

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Speaker 1: he finally give her a get? My understanding is that

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Speaker 1: someone convinced him some clever person convinced him that if

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Speaker 1: he gave my mother a get, he would show her

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Speaker 1: what a nice person he was and she would come

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Speaker 1: back to him. So you're like eleven or twelve years

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Speaker 1: old when your mother is no longer an abuna, right right,

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Speaker 1: So but then, yeah, she's not an aguna, but now

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Speaker 1: she's a divorce which is almost as bad in that community.

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Speaker 1: Not as bad, I mean agunas is a whole new level,

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Speaker 1: or a really low level. But even as a divorce woman,

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Speaker 1: that the abuse that she got, the treatment that she

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Speaker 1: got was absolutely horrifying. So were you sort of at

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Speaker 1: that point watching your older siblings start to get married,

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Speaker 1: start to have families. I mean, if you're if you're

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Speaker 1: the second to the youngest when you were a teenager,

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Speaker 1: was that starting to happen around you? Yes, when I

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Speaker 1: was twelve, my oldest sister got engaged. She was nineteen,

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Speaker 1: so she was really old. It was time for her

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Speaker 1: to marry. And by the way, very very difficult for

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Speaker 1: my mother to arrange all of our marriages because we

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Speaker 1: are now the children of divorce and that's just so

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Speaker 1: looked down upon in that community. So not only was

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Speaker 1: my mother punished for being first snaguna and then a divorcee.

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Speaker 1: But then we were all punished. I mean, I had

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Speaker 1: girls in my class at Yeshiva of Brooklyn whose parents

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Speaker 1: would not let them talk to me. That's all. You

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Speaker 1: can't talk to Fred, her parents are divorced. It was

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Speaker 1: that extreme. And the other thing that didn't occur to

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Speaker 1: me at the time, and looking back at this, the

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Speaker 1: really really gets to me is my mother's marriage was

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Speaker 1: arranged or forced, whatever you want to call it. I

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Speaker 1: call it force because there's no there's no real opportunity

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Speaker 1: for either party to consent to his marriage. So her

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Speaker 1: parents forced her into this marriage to a stranger, and

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Speaker 1: it turned out to be I mean, such a horrifying,

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Speaker 1: terrible experience for her. She mean, she was abuse every

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Speaker 1: single day for the fourteen years that she lived with

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Speaker 1: my father. He tortured her. And yet less than a

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Speaker 1: year after she finally got her religious of force and

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Speaker 1: got out of that, she was already forcing all of

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Speaker 1: her children into marriages to strangers. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: it ever occurred to her that this system doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 1: This is a problematic system. You cannot just marry people

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Speaker 1: off without their consent to strangers and then have it

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Speaker 1: turned out well. So yes, I went from watching her

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Speaker 1: get her get and then to my sister being married

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Speaker 1: off to a stranger, and then, as far as I know,

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Speaker 1: my oldest sister, her marriage was not, as far as

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Speaker 1: I know, an unhappy marriage, although I wouldn't necessarily know that,

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Speaker 1: But she got pregnant right away, which is was supposed

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Speaker 1: to happen in that community. And her oldest son was

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Speaker 1: born with really profound disability, very very very sick, and

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Speaker 1: spent most of his life in a hospital and a home.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't see, he couldn't walk, he couldn't talk, and

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Speaker 1: he um and he died when he was eighteen. So

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Speaker 1: I was twelve or thirteen when he was born. Yes see,

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Speaker 1: this was my first nephew, and I just I just

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Speaker 1: fell in love with YESI I still remember the first

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Speaker 1: time I saw him in the hospital, hooked up to

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Speaker 1: all kinds of machines. He had his first surgery as

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Speaker 1: soon as he was born. He had hydrocephalus, and back

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Speaker 1: then the treatments for that we're really limited. And I

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Speaker 1: just fell in love with him. This is what I

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Speaker 1: was witnessing. My sister was twenty years old. And she

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Speaker 1: has a son with profound disabilities that she now has

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Speaker 1: to care for when she's because she's basically a child herself.

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Speaker 1: And then she has to keep having children because that's

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Speaker 1: what's required in that community. So I mean, she continued

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Speaker 1: having children and then trying to to juggle all of

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Speaker 1: that when she herself had not even had a chance

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Speaker 1: to grow up. I mean, it's just so heartbreaking. In

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Speaker 1: the bridal classes that are mandatory for all engaged women

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Speaker 1: in the community, women are taught that you are required

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Speaker 1: to have unprotected sex with your spouse on a monthly basis,

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Speaker 1: and it's time for when you're ovulating, so it's forced sex,

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Speaker 1: forced unprotected sex, which leads to forced parenthood. Freddie watches

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Speaker 1: her sister go through this and is aware that before

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Speaker 1: long she'll be paired off with someone too. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I was just waiting to be married off, and I

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Speaker 1: had no hopes and dreams for the future other than

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Speaker 1: I want to be a wife and a mother, because

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Speaker 1: that's all I was taught. There's a term for a

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Speaker 1: girl when she reaches high school in the Orthodox Jewish community.

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Speaker 1: They call her a columnate. All it's just a bridal girl,

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Speaker 1: just a girl waiting to become a bride. That's all

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Speaker 1: really I was. I was required to sign two different

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Speaker 1: forms promising that I wouldn't take driver's head and promising

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Speaker 1: that I wouldn't take s A T S. It's very,

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Speaker 1: very very cheerfully orchestrated that as a girl, I was

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Speaker 1: completely financially dependent on my what would have been parents.

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Speaker 1: My father was out of the picture by then, so

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Speaker 1: it was completely financially dependent on my mother. Had to

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Speaker 1: live in her home, not allowed to move out on

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Speaker 1: my own. The only way I could move out was

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Speaker 1: when I got married, so that I was just never

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Speaker 1: allowed to become independent. And there's also lack of education.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't allowed to get a real education at issue for

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Speaker 1: worklen and we learned how to cook and sew, and

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Speaker 1: I was not allowed to go to college. So all

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Speaker 1: of this really just conspires against you. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1: So when Freddie is a teenager, the official matchmaking process

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Speaker 1: kicks off. She's seen this play out for her older

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Speaker 1: siblings and now it's her time to be forced into

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Speaker 1: a relationship with a stranger, a partner chose by someone else,

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Speaker 1: the matchmaker. There is no courtship, it's just a match.

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Speaker 1: I was one of those couples, those hilariously awkward couples

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Speaker 1: sitting five feet away from each other in the lounge

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Speaker 1: of a hotel, drinking soda and asking, so, how many

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Speaker 1: children do you want to have? What's your favorite? So yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: let's get married. Well it's not even let's get married,

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Speaker 1: because that's decide, but the matchmaker, I mean that whole exercise.

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't laugh, because there is really nothing funny about

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Speaker 1: forcing strangers to marriage when they've never been allowed to

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Speaker 1: be alone together. So there has to be in that

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Speaker 1: public place, never allowed to have any physical contact, and

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Speaker 1: they have a matchmaker arranging the whole thing. And by

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Speaker 1: the time you get to go on on one of

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Speaker 1: those they call that a date. I would really really,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a bit of a stretch to call

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Speaker 1: that kind of meeting a date. But by the time

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Speaker 1: you get to go on this so called date, both

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00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,239
Speaker 1: families have all and the matchmaker have already decided this

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Speaker 1: match is happening. So it's really it's not do you

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Speaker 1: want to marry him, it's you're gonna marry him? Right,

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Speaker 1: And to say no to that is incredibly, incredibly difficult.

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Speaker 1: And especially there's some socioeconomic element to this. So if

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Speaker 1: my parents had not been divorced, if I had a

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Speaker 1: father who was a famous rabbi or was very wealthy,

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Speaker 1: then I probably would have felt comfortable saying no to

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Speaker 1: to a few matches. So if you know, the first

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Speaker 1: guy that that the matchmaker matches me with, perhaps I

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Speaker 1: could have said no, I don't I don't like his nose,

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Speaker 1: or I don't like you know, he likes sprite and

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Speaker 1: I like Coca cola, so obviously we're not compatible. Uh

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Speaker 1: you know. Perhaps, But because I was from such a

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Speaker 1: poor family and my parents were divorced, I knew if

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Speaker 1: I said no, there was probably not going to be

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Speaker 1: another match. And the other thing is there's no real

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Speaker 1: basis to say no. I mean, you know, I joke

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Speaker 1: about how he likes sprite and I like Coca cola.

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Speaker 1: I mean, really, other than that, how much can you

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Speaker 1: possibly get to know somebody sitting in that lounge five

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Speaker 1: ft apart from each other, you know, talking about how

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Speaker 1: many children do you want to have and what's your

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Speaker 1: favorite soda? There's very little that you can learn. I

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Speaker 1: remember talking to this one woman who said she's also

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Speaker 1: grew up a fundamentalist Hasidic community that she came from,

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Speaker 1: and she told her mother after this, she actually got

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00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,120
Speaker 1: to meet this guy for a half hour, and by then,

335
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: like the wine had been pouring, the cookies had been

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00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,119
Speaker 1: put out. I mean, both families were there. They were

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00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 1: just waiting for her to say yes. And after the

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00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 1: half hour meeting, she went back into the kitchen and

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00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 1: from the living room she tilled her mother, I just

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00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,440
Speaker 1: I just don't like him. And her mother said, how

341
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,640
Speaker 1: could you not like him? You don't even know him,

342
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,400
Speaker 1: and not understanding the irony of what she was saying, like,

343
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Speaker 1: you can marry this guy, but you can't not like him.

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00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 1: You have no basis not to like him. You've met

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Speaker 1: him for half hour. How could you not like him?

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot I had a lot of that

347
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Speaker 1: feeling as well. How can I say no? My mother

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00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 1: has said this is the right guy for me, His

349
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:43,919
Speaker 1: family has said this is the right guy for me.

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00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 1: The matchmaker I always compare the matchmakers to use car salespeople.

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00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 1: They get paid only if there's an engagement, so they

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Speaker 1: go hard. I mean this, They're they're gonna make sure

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Speaker 1: that this match happens. In my case. It was my

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Speaker 1: mother's first cousin, and she's telling me, this is the

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00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,440
Speaker 1: right guy for you. And it's very much a sense

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Speaker 1: of I've never dated before, I don't know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know anything. I mean, I'm a nineteen year old, clueless virgin.

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00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna turn twenty this year. And then you don't

359
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 1: want to turn twenty and still be single. In that community,

360
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 1: that's basically a death sentence. When I saw him, we

361
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,199
Speaker 1: remember him standing there on the porch, and my initial

362
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 1: instinct was, oh God, this is not at all what

363
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,159
Speaker 1: the matchmaker had promised had told me. He was unkempt,

364
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 1: his suit was like a little disheveled. I I'm very

365
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 1: into clothing, like guy. I always liked to dress well.

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00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: I always always really put together, and he was just

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00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 1: kind of a mess and he was pretty significantly overweight

368
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,359
Speaker 1: and just just not at all what the matchmaker had

369
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 1: said to me. And I remember thinking, God, this was

370
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: not what I would have wanted. But then it's always

371
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 1: so drummed into you. I had been taught for years

372
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 1: and years physical attraction. That's something the guy um that

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00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: the non Jews the other that's what they worry about.

374
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 1: That's not something that we care about. Sexual attraction. That's

375
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 1: not a thing. Physical attraction, physical appearance. That means nothing

376
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 1: and absolutely nothing to do with anything. And by the way,

377
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 1: it wasn't This is how you make a decision. Don't

378
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 1: worry about physical appearance. Instead, look at X, Y and Z.

379
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 1: There was no look at X, Y and Z. No

380
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: one ever had a conversation with me about, all right,

381
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 1: you're gonna get to meet the guy at the lounge

382
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: of the hotel. Here's what you should ask him, here's

383
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: what you should look at, here's what you should think about.

384
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 1: I had no idea, and it didn't even occur to

385
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 1: me to ask, and it didn't occur to anyone around

386
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: me to tell me that. I was just basically it was,

387
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: you know, checking the box on the page. Okay, did

388
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: the matchmaker come forward, yes? Did his family say yes? Check?

389
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 1: Did her family say yes? Check? Did they meet three

390
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 1: times in the hotel lobby and talk about soda preferences? Check?

391
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 1: All right, and they can get engaged. I mean, it

392
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: was just really, it was just ridiculous. And in fact,

393
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 1: the average number of these fake dates in the community

394
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 1: at is seven. By the way, and I can't remember

395
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 1: exactly how many dates we had, but it was over

396
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: a period of something like eight weeks. And on two

397
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 1: of these so called dates, this guy got into a

398
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: physical fight with strangers on the street. There was one

399
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: time that he didn't like the way a guy looked

400
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: at me, and they got into a physical altercation. And

401
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: then there was another time that there was some kind

402
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: of driving incident. He was a very aggressive driver and

403
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: he got into a physical fight with with another driver.

404
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: And that was such a huge red flag. I mean,

405
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: the fact that he turned out to be violent and abusive.

406
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 1: Anyone who would have seen that, who had any you know,

407
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this rationally at all, would have said,

408
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: that's a red flag. This is somebody who has violent tendencies.

409
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: But that did not occur to me, and this didn't

410
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: occur to anyone around me. Did he asked about that.

411
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 1: Nobody said, well, if he physically assault strangers on the

412
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: street while you're walking with him, that's a guy who

413
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: probably has violent tendencies, and you to you know, proceed

414
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: with caution. No. To me, in my nineteen year old brain,

415
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 1: it was, oh wow, he's you know, he really protect me.

416
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: This is a guy who's really, really going to protect me.

417
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: This is this is fantastic. Tell me about how you

418
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: felt walking down the aisle. I was so happy that

419
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: it's embarrassing to admit this, and it hurts me to

420
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: say this. I wish I could say God, I was

421
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: begging for not to happen, and I walked down the

422
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 1: aisle feeling like this is so unfair. I always say

423
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: I walked down the aisle to my execution wearing a

424
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: big smile and the world's ugliest gown. I wish I

425
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: had known better, but I let myself get caught up

426
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: in all in all of it, you know. And here's

427
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: the thing there. You say no to a match, they're

428
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: all kinds of serious repercussions, bad things will happen. You

429
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 1: say yes, you get a party. You get have to

430
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: be the center of attention. I was the second to

431
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: youngest of six and a girl, and and a fundamentalist religious,

432
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 1: really poor family. I had never had a birthday party.

433
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: Nobody ever made me the center of attention. I mean,

434
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: in the ultra fox Jewish community, girls don't even have

435
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: a bot mits about. Boys have apartment spob but a

436
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: girl doesn't have a bott mit spot. All of a sudden,

437
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: you get engaged, center of attention, big parties. You know,

438
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: people will buy you all kinds of gifts and a

439
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: whole new wardrobe and a set of multiple sets of

440
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: pops and pans and dishes. And then also, I didn't

441
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: feel safe at home. I was unsafe at home. My

442
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: brother was very abusive. I did not feel safe at home.

443
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 1: And I get to move out. I get I get

444
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 1: to get out of this abusive home. I get to

445
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: go someplace where I imagined in my head I would

446
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: be safe. Finally, for the first time in my life.

447
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: I'd be away from my abusive father and away from

448
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: my abusive brothers. I get to just live in safety

449
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 1: with all these new pots and pans I have nineteen.

450
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: I can't imagine, you know, getting a bitter deal. So yeah,

451
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: I walked down the aisle. I'll skip in. I'm like,

452
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 1: this is fantastic way to go Freddy. Freddy and her

453
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: new husband begin their life together. They move into a

454
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: little basement apartment on Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn, a wide,

455
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:24,239
Speaker 1: busy boulevard lined with synagogues, yeshiva's, and Jewish businesses. So

456
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: one of the you know, beautiful homes on Ocean Parkway

457
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: in the dinky basement with like one little window, basically

458
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: a prison, which I guess is fitting. So living in

459
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 1: this little, tiny apartment. And the first thing that became

460
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 1: very very clear right away was that my then husband

461
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: and I were just not compatible. I mean, it was

462
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: very clear that we had nothing at all in common,

463
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: and that having a conversation was going to be a

464
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: challenge with this man because the way we approached life

465
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: was so different. So, for example, he would make Helen

466
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: Keller jokes where he mocked people who were blind or

467
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: people had physical disabilities. I remember us talking about my nephew, Yesie,

468
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: who loved more than anyone in the world, who was

469
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: blind and he was in a wheelchair. And every time

470
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: my husband made a joke about Helen Keller, I would

471
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: start to cry. You know, I beg him, please don't

472
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: make jokes about that. It really hurts me. I feel

473
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: like you're really offending. Yes see, why is it his

474
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: fault that he's blind? And the more I cry, the

475
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: funnier he found it. Sevent days after our wedding, he

476
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: woke up late one morning and he was late for

477
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: an appointment, and he was furious. Oh my God, I

478
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: woke up late. He wasn't even angry at me. He

479
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: was angry at himself and flew into a violent rage

480
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: the likes of which I, um, well, I can't say

481
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: I had never seen, because obviously there were a lot

482
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: of violent rages in my childhood home. But it was

483
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: not what I was expecting from my marriage. But also

484
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: he was cursing in a way that I had never

485
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: heard before, and I was terrified. So, you know, he

486
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: were talking about a big guy. He was six ft tall,

487
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: and he's two forty pounds, jumping up and down and

488
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: screaming at the top of his lungs, and I'm just terrified.

489
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 1: I was like, what is happening. I don't know what

490
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: to do, Like he's a stranger, just completely lost his ship,

491
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: screaming and yelling. So I was cowering in a corner.

492
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: And then, in his like final active rage, he punched

493
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: his fist through the wall really hard. I left a

494
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: big hole in the wall, and then ran out to

495
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 1: whatever appointment he was laid for. And that was when

496
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: I said, oh my god, oh my god. And I'll

497
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: never forget Just standing there looking at that hole in

498
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: the wall, shaking, I thought I was going to be

499
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: safe here. I thought I was going to be safe.

500
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: This was supposed to be different. What just happened? What?

501
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: This is what he acts like when he wakes up late,

502
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: and you know, on Ocean Parkway, there's um there's a park,

503
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: a little plate ground across the street. And so I

504
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: remember after he left, I walked across the street to

505
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: this playground and sat on a swing just crying crises,

506
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: just swinging for hours and crying, oh my god, what

507
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: is going to happen to me? And I Am I

508
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: going to end up like my mother? Did you tell anyone? Well,

509
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: at first I didn't. It was like two or three

510
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: days after that. Um, he threatened to kill me for

511
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: the first time, and that's something that became the norm

512
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: in our marriage. He would he would threaten to kill me,

513
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: and he would get very graphic with the detail. He

514
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: would describe to me how he was going to kill me.

515
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: And he would do this while he was screaming in

516
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: a rage and breaking things and throwing things, and so

517
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: even though he didn't have his hands on me, he

518
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: would describe to me like I'm gonna you know, like

519
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: one time he was going to put his fingers around

520
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: my neck and he was gonna squeeze really hard, and

521
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: he was going to watch me as i you know,

522
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: struggle to breathe, and then he was going to watch

523
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: me take my last breath. I mean, he described this

524
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: whole thing. And it was another time he was going

525
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: to go to the kitchen and he was going to

526
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: get a knife, and then he described what he's going

527
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: to do with the knife, and you know, it was

528
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: beyond terrifying. It was very believable that he was going

529
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: to do these things to me because a why would

530
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: he describe it in such graphic detail if he didn't

531
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: actually plan to do it. And be he was doing

532
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: at the same time that he was smashing and breaking things,

533
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: so he was clearly capable of violence. But he didn't

534
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: beat me up. So he would throw things at me,

535
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: he would shove me, or he loved to do this

536
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: thing where he was a really wild driver. And so

537
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: whenever whenever we were going anywhere, obviously he would drive.

538
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: He wouldn't let me drive, and he would do this

539
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: thing where he would speed up to a hundred miles

540
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: an hour and then sam on the brake to send

541
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: me flying, to send me flying into the windshield. Within

542
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks, I started saying, this is a problem.

543
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: I went to my mother for help with this. I

544
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: went to his father. Um, I made an appointment with

545
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: a rabbi, like you know, a rabbi and one of

546
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: the big rabbis in the community, to try to get

547
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: how up. And with everyone it was what did he

548
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: hit you? And I said, no, he didn't hit me,

549
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: but he saw me. He's gonna kill me if he

550
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: didn't hit you. Why are you complaining? And especially with

551
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: my mother, like I remember thinking, how could he even

552
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: complain about this to my mother? I mean, my mother

553
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: had broken bones, she had black on blue marks. I'm

554
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: going to complain that this guy, you know, punched his

555
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: fist through the wall. It didn't even seem fair. So

556
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: they all, you know, they all just try to convince

557
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: me that the problem was me, that I was being

558
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: my standards were too high, that I was being unreasonable,

559
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: that he was really young. He's twenty two years old.

560
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: He just needs time to grow up. And and you know,

561
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: you have to be good to him, and you can

562
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: and upset him, and you really can't complain when he's

563
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: not even hitting you. You saw your mother went through,

564
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: You're going to complain that the guys that I'm gonna

565
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: kill you? Did he kill you? No? So why are

566
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: you complaining? So I just lived in fair every day

567
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: that he was going to kill me. And then when

568
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: I had kids, I lived in fair that he was

569
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: going to kill them too, And he would say that,

570
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: I say, I'm going to kill you, and I'm going

571
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: to kill them, and then I'm going to kill myself.

572
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: That was his plan. How far into your into your

573
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: marriage were your daughters born eleven months? That's what happens

574
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: when you are forced to have unprotected sex. Got pregnant

575
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: two months after my wedding, gave birth nine months later

576
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: after that, so um, so eleven months from my first one,

577
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: and then my next one was four years later. I

578
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: had never heard the term reproductive rights. I had never

579
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: you know, didn't have any sense of consenting to sex

580
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: or anything like that. All I knew was my marriage

581
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: was a disaster. My husband was a violent just awful awful.

582
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: The way he treated me was absolutely unspeakably awful. And

583
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: my first pregnancy was a nightmare. I mean, I was

584
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: the morning sickness I had all day, every day the

585
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: entire nine months I kept losing weight. I couldn't keep

586
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: any food down. I was hospitalized for dehydration. At a

587
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: certain point, I was having trouble with my kidney and

588
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: there was urologist who told me that we're going to

589
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: have to deliver the baby early and remove my kidney.

590
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it was like, really an awful pregnancy, and

591
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: I just knew I didn't want to do that again.

592
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: And I knew that I wasn't happy in my marriage,

593
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, I was stuck in it. And I went

594
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: to my gynecologist and I said, you need to give

595
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: me birth control. And I give her credit, and she

596
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: used ultra Orthodox Jewish And by the way, she's the

597
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: same kind ofcologist who when I was a bride, performed

598
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: a virginity exam on me to confirm that my hyman

599
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: was intact and I was a so called virgin. So

600
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: I am, in hindsight surprise that she did this. But

601
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: she gave me birth control, and then my husband lost it.

602
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: He said, how dare you? And he took us. He

603
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: took me to the rabbi, who said, you're not allowed

604
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: to use birth control. And I looked at the rabbi

605
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: in the eye and I said, it is my body,

606
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: not yours. And he said, you know what, if you

607
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: feel like I I can need a break, you can use

608
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: birth control for one year, but then you have to stop.

609
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: And I said, what part of my body do you

610
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: not understand? I am not doing this for one year.

611
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: I am never having another child. And the Rebert told

612
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: my husband, don't worry. After a year, she'll stop. And

613
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: after a year, I didn't stop until I finally caved

614
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: into the pressure and had a baby four years later.

615
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: I was lucky that I had only two. And then

616
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: all of this just it's just chains getting tighter and

617
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: tighter and tighter around you, and for me, it started

618
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: really feeling like it was tightening around my neck and

619
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: I was going to die. We'll be back in a

620
00:34:47,200 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: moment with more family secrets. Despite the vice that grips her,

621
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: Freddie has an escape plan. She's going to go to

622
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: college though she's not supposed to. She's going to find

623
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: a way out for herself and her daughters. It was

624
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: a sense of survival. It was the realization after a

625
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: particularly traumatic incident where my family and my community just

626
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: we're not coming through. For me, I finally realized I

627
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: need to get out on my own if I say,

628
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: this man is going to kill me and he's going

629
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: to kill my two daughters. He made that very clear.

630
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: When you feel that your life is in danger, you've

631
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: become capable of doing things you never thought you could.

632
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: And that's what it was for me. It was it

633
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: was a sense of survival. It was a sense of

634
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: this is the only way I'm going to get at

635
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: it here alive. So I have to get out on

636
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 1: my own, and the only way I can do that

637
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: is if I have an education in some way to

638
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: support myself financially. Freddy has not been allowed to have

639
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: a job, or a bank account or a credit card,

640
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: so in order to gain this financial independence, an education

641
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: would be a must. Before pursuing the education on her own, though,

642
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: she asks her family, her mother, who surely would understand

643
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: what she's going through right for help. Originally, I did

644
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: not think I would go to college or get out

645
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: on my own after years and years of just suffering

646
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: in this abusive marriage. When I was twenty seven, it

647
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: was this time that my mother happened to come over

648
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 1: to the house after a really violent outbursts from my

649
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: then husband, where he had kicked in the front or

650
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: we had a dead boatlock and um and he had

651
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: left in a rage, and I locked the door behind him,

652
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: and he came back. I wanted to get back in,

653
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: you screaming, and I said, I'm not going to let

654
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: you back in until you calm down, and he kicked

655
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: in the front door and and she came over in

656
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: the aftermath of that, so she saw the physical signs

657
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: of it, and she saw me sitting there crying, and

658
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 1: the kids were there crying, and and that was when

659
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: I finally said to her, I said, you know, I'm

660
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: really I'm scared for my life. I'm afraid for my

661
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: kids lives. I don't know why next step is, but

662
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: can I just move in with you temporarily, just, you know,

663
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: just to let I figure out where I go from here,

664
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: and just so that I can be safe. And her

665
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: her answer was she turned around and walked out of

666
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: the room without saying anything. And and I remember my

667
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: my older daughter who was seven at the time. She

668
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: was in the room and she heard this, and she

669
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: said to me, why didn't Bobby answer you? And I

670
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: told her that was her answer. It's incredibly hurtful too,

671
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: you know this this memory is so painful when I

672
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: think about it, and how she never forgave her parents

673
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: for marrying her off to an abusive man, and then

674
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: she turned her back on me when I asked her

675
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: for help, and and I think about, you know, all

676
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: the reasons that possibly she did that, and maybe it

677
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: was because of guilt or because she just you know,

678
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: the trauma it triggered, it was triggering for her. I

679
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: don't know what it was. But at the end of

680
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: the day, she did me such a favor. If I

681
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: had moved in with her, I would have just continued

682
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: the cycle, and I would have become an aguna, and

683
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: I would have, you know, just remained a victim my

684
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: whole life. And instead, she, for better or worse, forced

685
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: me to take matters into my own hands and to

686
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: leave on my own terms, to get my college degree,

687
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: to save up cash, and to leave and get out

688
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: and leave not only my abusive marriage, but leave this

689
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: whole misogynistic, abusive community and really create a much happier well.

690
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: I can't even see much happier there was loving happy

691
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: about that life. So finally a happy, safe, in free

692
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: life for myself and my daughters. During this time, Freddie

693
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: also seeks therapy. In fact, it's the therapist that helps

694
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: her device and pursue her escape. The therapist she seeks

695
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 1: is outside the ultra orthodox community, a radical, and, as

696
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: it turns out, a essential move on Freddy's part. How

697
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: did you figure out who to talk to? I had

698
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 1: a friend who I didn't tell her what was going on,

699
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: that I was afraid or you know, that my marriage

700
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: was abusive. And apparently I didn't have to because one

701
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: day she said to me, you know, I have a

702
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: name of a therapist that that I've been seeing. Nobody

703
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: knows it's you know it was. She had to keep

704
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: it a secret also, and she just slipped me a

705
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: paper and she said, it's just the name and a number.

706
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: You know. She didn't ask questions, she didn't say why

707
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: she gave me the paper. She just clearly saw that

708
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: something was wrong, and she said, you know, this is

709
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 1: just in case you in case you want to talk

710
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: to somebody, here's a name. And so I reached out.

711
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: It was really hard to go because you know, if

712
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 1: I got caught, the repercussions would have been great. So

713
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 1: I couldn't write it down in my calendar. I had

714
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: to pay cash because I couldn't write at a check

715
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: or have any kind of paper trail, I mean, and

716
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 1: then I had to have a cover story for where

717
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: I was going during that time, so I actually went

718
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: only twice. But this therapist was the first person who

719
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: explained to me what domestic violence was. I mean, imagine

720
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: that I had grown up in that really abusive, violent

721
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: household and I had been married to this abusive guy

722
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,439
Speaker 1: for for at that point eight years, and I had

723
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: no idea what domestic violence was. And she explained it

724
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: to me. And then she was also the first person

725
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: who said, it doesn't matter if he's never slapped you

726
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: across the face of broken your bone, that is domestic violence.

727
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: She went over like what the mess of violence looks like,

728
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: and the power and control will and the cycle of violence,

729
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 1: and it was it was such an eye opening experience.

730
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it was literally life altering. I always it

731
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: was a social work, and I always tell social workers,

732
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you have no idea the power you have.

733
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: This woman saved my life. She also explained that I

734
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: had legal rights and that there's something called a restraining order.

735
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,760
Speaker 1: You can get a restraining order against an abusive husband.

736
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 1: The police will remove him from your house and then

737
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: he's not a goot to come near you, so he

738
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 1: cannot abuse you or threatened you. Was talking anymore. Now

739
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: I had this new knowledge that this was, that this

740
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: was an option, and it was. It was my family

741
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 1: and communities reaction to the restraining order that actually ended

742
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: up leading to my five year plan to escape, because

743
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: you know, the police gave me there was this temporary

744
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: restraining order, served it on my then husband, removing from

745
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: the house. And then immediately I started getting phone calls

746
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: from everyone I knew, not only my family, but my

747
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: friends and my neighbors and rabbis, just all saying, what

748
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: the hell is wrong with you? Are you crazy? Who

749
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: does this? You went to the police, you got a

750
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 1: restraeting order? Are you out of your mind? Miss Era?

751
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: I had always been taught, miss Era, of turning over

752
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: your fellow Jew to the to the police. That's literally

753
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: punishable by death, and I had committed that sin. And

754
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: then the rabbis sent an attorney to my house. An

755
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: Orthodox Jewish mail attorney showed up at my house. He

756
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: drove with me to family court in Tons River, New Jersey,

757
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,280
Speaker 1: and you know, went with me in front of the judge.

758
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: You had me tell the judge that I wanted to

759
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 1: drop the restraining order, and it was it was in

760
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: that surreal moment when the judge asked me whether I

761
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: was doing this of my own free will, and I

762
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: was looking at him and looking at my attorney and thinking,

763
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: how can I possibly explain to the judge what's happening here?

764
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: He looks at me, he think he he thinks this

765
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: is my attorney standing next to me, thinks I retained.

766
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: This guy thinks I'm here willingly. How could I possibly

767
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: explain what's going on? I have not a single friend

768
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: or sibling or relative, anyone in the world who is

769
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 1: on my side who will back me up here. I

770
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: don't know what to do. So I lied to the

771
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 1: judge and I said, yes, your honor, you know, an

772
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 1: answer to his question about whether I was dropping the

773
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: restraining letter willingly. And then I went home and I said,

774
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: I need to get out, and I need to do

775
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: it on my own, because these people are gonna let

776
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: me die here. Don't let this guy my husband kill

777
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: me before they will help me, and the hell with us.

778
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: I'm just going to get out on my own. I'll

779
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: get a college degree, I'll save up money, I'll get

780
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: out on my own. And that's what you did, and

781
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 1: that's what I did. So without telling anybody, I secretly

782
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 1: applied to Redger's and became the first person in my

783
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: family to go to college man or woman, by the way,

784
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: and um, and I started saving up cash in the

785
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: only place in the house that my abusive then husband

786
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't look. He would look through all my personal belongings

787
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: to make sure that I didn't have anything that I

788
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: was hiding from him, and to show me that I

789
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: belonged to him and everything I owned belonged to him.

790
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: He would start in front of me. You would go

791
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: through the pockets of my scarts hanging in the closet,

792
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: and he would go through all my personal belongings. So

793
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: I found the one place in the house I knew

794
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: he wouldn't look, a box of whole grain total in

795
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 1: the pantry closet, and I would put cash in there.

796
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: And I started going to college. And everybody in my

797
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: family freaked out, how did you go to college? What

798
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: is this about? And try to talk me out of it,

799
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: and I, especially my then husband, was furious, and I said, nothing,

800
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing that you can do to stop me. From

801
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: going to Rutgers. You know, good luck trying. I started

802
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: to feel much stronger, said, you know, I have this

803
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: great plan. I'm going to get out. I'm stating up cash,

804
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: I'm getting my college degree, which felt really great. I

805
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: really it was a great student. I really really loved

806
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: my time at Rutgers. It would seem that you were

807
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 1: also being exposed to other people out side of this

808
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: insular community, like really for the first time. Absolutely, that

809
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: was also exhilarating. Really just making friends for the first

810
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: time in my life. That was the first time in

811
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: my life I made friends with people who were not

812
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 1: also Orthodox Jewish. Here I made friends with this Palestinian

813
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 1: Muslim woman who had almost the exact same life story

814
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: that I did, except I used to like to say

815
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 1: her story started in Ramala and mine started in Borough Park.

816
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: But um, but she also had been forced to marry

817
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: and eighteen also had two kids as the neges as

818
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: my kids. But yeah, that was that was part of

819
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: the just the enormity of the experience of going to Rutgers,

820
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: and it was really what made part of what made

821
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: me feel ready to take my next rebellious step, which

822
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: is while I was still a student there, I stopped

823
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 1: wearing the head covering that is required of Orthodox Jewish women.

824
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: And that was when my family think we were already

825
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: upset that I was a college student. I mean, how

826
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: embarrassing is that? But know, the neighbors don't necessarily have

827
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: to know. You can kind of try to keep that quiet.

828
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 1: But for an Orthodox Jewish woman to walk outside the house,

829
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 1: a married woman without a head covering, it's like walking

830
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 1: around naked. That's how much of a statement it makes.

831
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: They couldn't ignore that, They could not accept that if

832
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: they saw that as just too much of a slap

833
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: in their face and too much of an affront, and

834
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: the flat that they would get from the community just

835
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: too much for them to bear. So that was when

836
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: they shunned me. They cut off all contact. And I

837
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: have one sister who was the only one I could

838
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: reach briefly kept in touch with me at first. I've

839
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: since lost contact with her as well, but she kept

840
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: in touch briefly at first and told me that the

841
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: rest of my family was planning to sit shiffl for

842
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: you go through the Jewish morning ritual for me as

843
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: if I had literally died. And this is because I

844
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: walked outside of the house with my natural hair on

845
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: my head, despite being ostracized by her family. Freddy p

846
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: Severes At Rutger's not only does she graduate, but at

847
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: the graduation ceremony, she's the commencement speaker, an extraordinary accomplishment

848
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: for someone who had signed a piece of paper promising

849
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: not to take the SA T S once I graduated.

850
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: By then, my family had already shunned me. So you

851
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: can't kill somebody twice. That probably was their mistake. So

852
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: at that point I was really able to do whatever

853
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: I wanted. So I was able to change the locks

854
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: file for divorce. And my original plan had been to

855
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: leave my abusive marriage. But at that point I said, ha,

856
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: this my family declared me dead because I stopped wearing

857
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: a head covering. This is nuts. Once I started, you know,

858
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: going to college and learning things and making other friends

859
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: and started thinking about life in an adult way, which

860
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:51,479
Speaker 1: I never got a chance, and you before I was married,

861
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: because I was married as a team. It just really

862
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: really wasn't comfortable for me at all. I said, I

863
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 1: don't belong in this whole religion. This is not me.

864
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: So not only was I able thanks to my family

865
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 1: shunning me, and not only was able to get out

866
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: of my abusive marriage, but I was able to just

867
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 1: leave the entire religion because you know, normally that would

868
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: be a scary thing to do, because your family might shun,

869
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: you might lose your whole family. Well, guess what, I

870
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 1: had already lost my whole family. To me, the religion

871
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: felt so oppressive. There was a god, and I believed

872
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:25,879
Speaker 1: in him back then. I mean, I'm an atheist now,

873
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 1: but back then, I very, very strongly believed that there

874
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: was a god. But he was not a god of

875
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: joy or love. He was a god who was there

876
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: to punish you. He was he was a god. It

877
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: was like my father, he was like my brothers, He

878
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: was like my ex husband. He was an angry, abusive god,

879
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 1: and he was watching you every second of the day,

880
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: just waiting for you to slip up. And by the way,

881
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 1: there are so many ways to slip up, biting your

882
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: lip on Saturdays, slipping up. There were so many rules

883
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: in so many ways to mess up, and every time

884
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: you missed up, you're going to get punished. And now

885
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 1: you were the total people on Saturday. And wow, I

886
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: saw when you washed your hands, you were supposed to

887
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: do a twice on the right and twice on the left.

888
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: You missed the second time. It was only twice on

889
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: the right, and one of the halftimes on the left,

890
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: God is watching in place of religion. Frady continues to

891
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: focus on her education and her career. She's carving her

892
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: own path, freed from the peril of her marriage and

893
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 1: thrust into a professional landscape so refreshingly and restorative. Lee

894
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: far from where she started. So I was at first

895
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: I got my degree in journalism and loved, really loved journalism,

896
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: and I was an investigative reporter. And then because journalism

897
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: was a really tough time for journalism at the time,

898
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: everybody was getting laid off. In an attempt to avoid

899
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: getting laid off, I became a private investigator for the

900
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: investigations from Corol, which at the time was the world's

901
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,399
Speaker 1: largest investigations firm. And then I became financially independent enough

902
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: while I was there to buy a small house for

903
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,439
Speaker 1: myself and my two daughters. Is a little a little

904
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 1: cape cod which I of course named the palaisd Trion

905
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: because it was just such a triumphant moment for me

906
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,879
Speaker 1: to be able to to make it far enough out

907
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: of my traumatic situation to actually buy a house for myself.

908
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 1: And I imagine, but I am the first woman in

909
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: the history of my entire family ever to buy your

910
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 1: own home. And I was at the closing for the house,

911
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: and if you've ever been at the closing, you know

912
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: how boring it is, still signing your name again and

913
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: again and again until your hand cramps up. And even

914
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: the seller of the house wasn't there because they had

915
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: already moved out of state. So I was just in

916
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: a room with a couple of lawyers and just signing

917
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: my name again and again, and I kept trying to

918
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: explain to them what a big moment this was. I think,

919
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: you Amber sandwhat a big deal this is what I'm

920
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 1: buying a house. I was, you know, trying to explain

921
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 1: I had been forced into a marriage to this abusive

922
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: guy and trapped and then my whole family showned me

923
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:47,600
Speaker 1: and I managed to get out and they did not

924
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: care at all. And so it was at this it

925
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: was this anti climatic moment where I'm signing my name

926
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: again and again to buy the CALLI to trio before

927
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: I said, you know, I need to do something to

928
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: celebrate this moment, and there was also this guilt. It

929
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: was like a survivor's guilt almost where how did I

930
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: get out? And there are so many people I know,

931
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 1: I mean in my former community and in so many

932
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: other communities who are still trapped in the situation that

933
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: I got out of. So it was at the closing

934
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 1: where I said, you know what I'm gonna do. I'm

935
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: going to start a nonprofit. I'm going to help those

936
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 1: other people. And this is just what Freddie does. She

937
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 1: helps people. She creates a company called Unchained at Last,

938
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,280
Speaker 1: the only organization in the United States dedicated to ending

939
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: forced and child marriage through direct services and advocacy. When

940
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: I found it Unchained at Last, I was working full

941
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: time as a single mom, working full time, commuting from

942
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: New Jersey into Manhattan, you know, very little free time.

943
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 1: But I said, you know, this is just going to

944
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 1: be a couple of hours a week. On the side

945
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: I was there was no budget, any expense would just

946
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,040
Speaker 1: come right out of my pocket. At first Life, but

947
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: it was focused specifically on direct services. I wrote up

948
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:07,479
Speaker 1: a business plan just gonna help five women the first year,

949
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: ten women the second year, just you know, provide some

950
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: support and try to get them free legal representation, just

951
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: like to start begging attorneys to help represent them for

952
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 1: free while they're getting divorced. And that was basically the plan.

953
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 1: And at the time, by the way, Unshane at Last

954
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: was the only organization in the entire world with this

955
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: mission of helping people in the US escape force marriages,

956
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: and it still is the only one with that mission.

957
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: By the end of the first year, we had thirty clients.

958
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 1: From my original plan of five, we were at thirty.

959
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,240
Speaker 1: This was already a second full time job, just unpaid,

960
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: and I realized we're onto something here, like this is this,

961
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 1: this is something bigger. This has not helped five women

962
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: on budget of zero with a staff of zero, like

963
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: this is an actual thing. There are a lot of

964
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: people out there who need help. We were not marketing

965
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: in any way. That was all word of mouth. Thirty

966
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: people reach out to us for help, and so it's

967
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: just continued to grow from there. Remember Freddy's Muslim Palestinian

968
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: friend from college who was also a survivor of a

969
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: forced marriage. Well, that friend becomes the first president of

970
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 1: the board of Directors of Unchained at Last, together with

971
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: other dedicated members of the organization. They strive to help

972
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: women everywhere break free from their toxic and unsafe arrangements.

973
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: So from the beginning I knew that, yes, this is

974
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 1: happening in my former community, but I knew it was

975
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: not limited to that. So my I was determined from

976
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: the start to make this uh, you know, from any community, culture, religion,

977
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: any background. If you are in or escaping a forced marriage,

978
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: reach out to us and we will try to help you.

979
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: You know, at first most of our clients were from

980
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 1: the ultra Orthodox Jewish community, and now ultra Orthodox is

981
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, a small percentage of the overall clients that

982
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: we help. Actually, so because we've helped people from almost

983
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 1: any religion you can think of. I mean, we've helped

984
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 1: people from religions where I had to google that I

985
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 1: had never even heard of it, and from secular backgrounds.

986
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 1: I mean, this is of course not only a religious issue.

987
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: So as the years went on, so first of all,

988
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: our staff and budgets sort of growing, it became very

989
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: clear we can't just do this on the the kindness

990
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,439
Speaker 1: of volunteers and this. So after four years we had

991
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: enough funding that I was able to take a salary

992
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: so that I could leave my other job. And now

993
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: we're actually seven of us were a team of seven.

994
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: I mean we have an actual office, so we don't

995
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: have to work out of my dining room anymore. Um.

996
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: And and we have a budget now of over seven

997
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: hundred thousand, where it was from a budget of zero.

998
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: And then the other big thing that has changed is

999
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: where at first we thought this was all going to

1000
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 1: be direct services, what we realized within the first few

1001
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: years was that in addition to the forced marriage problem

1002
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 1: we have in the United States, there is a significant

1003
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: child marriage problem. And because more and more girls underage

1004
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: a team, we're reaching out to us asking for the

1005
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,919
Speaker 1: same help. And we operate nationally. So these are girls

1006
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: from across the US just calling and asking for the

1007
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: same help that we give adults, and we realize, oh crap,

1008
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: there's nothing we can do for them. If we help

1009
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 1: them leave home, we could be charged criminally. We get

1010
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 1: them to a domestic violence shelter, the shelters turn them away.

1011
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 1: They can't bring a legal action in their own name.

1012
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: If in many states, you could be forced into marriage

1013
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 1: before eighteen with without any input from you, your parents

1014
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 1: sign a form or a judge you know, stamps the

1015
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 1: page and you're forced into this marriage, and you can't

1016
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: even freaking fall for divorce until you're a team, because

1017
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: you can't bring a legal action in your own name.

1018
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: There's almost nothing we can do for these girls when

1019
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: they reach out to us. So in two thousand fifteen,

1020
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: even though we're we're a tiny team at the time,

1021
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 1: there were I think two or three of us on

1022
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: a tiny budget, working out of a little office in

1023
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 1: New Jersey in an undisclosed location because we get all

1024
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: kinds of obnoxious threats. So for security reasons, we have

1025
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 1: a you know, a office in a secret location. And

1026
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 1: we said, you know what, in our spare time, we're

1027
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: gonna take on this little project. We're gonna end child marriage.

1028
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: In the United States. At the time, it was legal

1029
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: in all fifty U s. States. Marriage before eighteen was

1030
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: legal in all fifty states. Even though it's recognized, I

1031
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: said to human rights abuse, and even though minors cyplicate

1032
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: can't fall for divorce and you can't get into his

1033
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:27,240
Speaker 1: mystic violence shelter, it's just an absurd, an evil legal

1034
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: construct where we have here miners can be forced into

1035
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: marriage before they have a legal right to get out

1036
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,760
Speaker 1: of it. And in um since two thousand and fifteen.

1037
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: Well took us until two thousand eighteen to convince the

1038
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 1: first U. S State to end child marriage, and since

1039
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: then we have convinced six U. S. States we have

1040
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: helped to end child marriage. We passed legislation, and we

1041
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 1: have only forty four states to go. The work Freighty

1042
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 1: has done with Unchained at Last has saved countless lives

1043
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: hers included. Working with us who have suffered similar circumstances

1044
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: has become her vocation. It's been enormously healing too. I

1045
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: use that word healing all the time. I actually use

1046
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: healing and empowering to be able to take my own

1047
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: trauma and instead of trying to forget it or get

1048
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: past it, instead using it as a way to help others.

1049
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: That is truly healing and empowering. And what I what

1050
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: I get out of Unchained is so much bigger than

1051
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: what I put into it. As hard as this work is,

1052
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,919
Speaker 1: that type of healing, I mean, I don't know any

1053
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: other way I could have been I could have gotten that.

1054
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 1: And it's tough, you know, many days, just the sadness,

1055
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 1: the stories that we get to, the survivors that I

1056
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: direct with who shares some of the worst of humanity.

1057
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: I mean the most horrific, unspeakable things that that people

1058
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 1: do to each other, and in this case, it's almost

1059
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,439
Speaker 1: always parents doing it to their own children. It's so

1060
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly sad, and it can turn depressing, it can it

1061
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: can be really tough and triggering for me, since this

1062
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: is so close to the trauma that I myself have

1063
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: have overcome. But it's also so healing and empowering. And

1064
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 1: and every time someone says to me, you know, I

1065
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: see you did it, you got out of it, and

1066
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 1: you rebuild your life. You give me hope, you give

1067
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: me inspiration, you make you prove to me that I

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Speaker 1: can do it too. What more can I ask? Family

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Speaker 1: Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. Molly z

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Speaker 1: a Core is the story editor and Dylan Fagan is

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Speaker 1: the executive producer. If you have a family secret you'd

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Speaker 1: like to share, please leave us a voicemail and your

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Speaker 1: story could appear on an upcoming episode. Our number is

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Speaker 1: one eight eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You

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Speaker 1: can also find me on Instagram at Danny Writer. And

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Speaker 1: if you'd like to know more about the story that

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Speaker 1: inspired this podcast, check out my memoir Inheritance. For more

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Speaker 1: podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.