1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Oh lad, dear listener, kipasor Radueskuchak Gomostan. Today we're going 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: to bring you an episode from Classy. It's a new 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: podcast hosted by Jonathan Menhivar, in which he explores a 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: topic that well, a lot of people find uncomfortable. It's 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: the issue of class. Jonathan grew up in a working 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: class family in a suburb of Los Angeles. His dad 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: is from Al Salvador, and as Jonathan built a career 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: in public radio, he didn't talk about his past. And 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: that was because of the issue of class. Now, you 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: can't separate class from race. They often go hand in 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: hand with the way we look, the way we dress, 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: and so in this episode of Classy, Jonathan interviews two 13 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: people of color who work in the fashion industry. One 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: of them is Brenda Equihua, Latina designer, who has turned 15 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: our beloved gobekass into a luxury fashion item. Because why 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: should we feel guilty about wanting nice things? And who 17 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: decides which things are considered nice and which things aren't. 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: Here's Jonathan men Hevar with this episode of Classy. 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: This episode was supposed to be about fashion. I think 20 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 2: a lot about what our clothes say about us and 21 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: what they convey to the world. What I wear has 22 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 2: been a pretty monumental part of the class shift I've made. 23 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: But then I talked to the two people who you're 24 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 2: going to hear from today. They've both worked in the 25 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 2: clothing and fashion industry, and those conversations they ended up 26 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: being about so much more than clothes, and more about 27 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 2: who is considered classy and who has the power to 28 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: say what classy actually is. From Pineapple Street Studios, this 29 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 2: is You Guessed It Classy, a show about the chasms 30 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 2: between us that are really hard to talk about but 31 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: too big to ignore. Your host Jonathan and Hev We're 32 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: gonna get started with this guy. His name is Amichi Uguo, 33 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: and I called him up because I knew he'd worked 34 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 2: in retail, selling clothes and high end men's to wear 35 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 2: shops across the country. I was interested in that dynamic 36 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: of being a salesman and selling really fancy suits and 37 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 2: shoes to people with a lot of money. Amichi first 38 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 2: got into clothes when he was in college. Back then, 39 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: he was experimenting a lot, and some of his clothes 40 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 2: were pretty wild. 41 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 3: I can describe to you one outfit that everybody always 42 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 3: remembers I had on a horse jockey helmet. A helmet, yeah, 43 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 3: horse jockey helmet, some mirrored aviator sunglasses, a satin gold 44 00:02:54,960 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 3: bow tie, a dress military jacket, some corn corduroys, red sox, 45 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 3: black pat leather shoes. I mean, if you can picture 46 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 3: dad outfit in your what that might have looked like. Oh, 47 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 3: I was having fun. 48 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 2: I mean, you grew up in Houston. His family was 49 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: middle class, it was mostly black neighborhood, and for college, 50 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 2: he went to Southern University in Baton, Riuge, Louisiana. 51 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: Southern University is a historically black college, and I remember 52 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 3: sitting in the crowd, you know, at convocation and I 53 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 3: looked to my left and every my right, and everybody's black. 54 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 3: I look into the stands and everybody's black. I graduated 55 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 3: on a Saturday. I start my first job following Tuesday, 56 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 3: and I remember being in the first morning meeting and 57 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 3: looking around. I was like, damn, it's really just it's 58 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 3: just me now, you know, It's just I'm I'm the 59 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 3: only black person now. And that was a different experience. 60 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 3: That was something that like in my life I had 61 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 3: never experienced. I think from elementary school, all the way 62 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 3: to college. Everybody was either black or Hispanic majority. 63 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: The shop Amichi was working at was fancy, the kind 64 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: of place featured in GQ magazine. His coworkers there, they 65 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: were welcoming, and they all had to wear a kind 66 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: of uniform, a blazer and Oxford shirt. Amichi looked good 67 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 2: in the clothes. He was wearing leather sold shoes for 68 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: the first time in his life. But pretty quickly the 69 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 2: fact that Amichi was black became a thing between him 70 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: and some of the guys he was working with, not 71 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: in any kind of overt way, but things would come 72 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: up when they were standing around waiting for customers, Like. 73 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 3: If we were talking about cars, right, and everybody's super 74 00:04:54,640 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: into the Ferraris and porsches in and Lamborghini's, you know, 75 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: and I was talking, man, I want a nineteen seventy 76 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: six Cadillac Eldorado. I wanted to be silver, and you know, 77 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 3: I'll describe my own car like what inspire me, you know, 78 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: I think about like blaxploitation films and just in the neighborhood, 79 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 3: like you grow up seeing like that was part of 80 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 3: our culture. Was like taking these old school cars and 81 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 3: fixing them up. 82 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: I mean she would talk about the bright, shiny paint 83 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 2: people used on the cars, the big sound systems. 84 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 3: Those were the things that like really inspired me, Like 85 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 3: seeing those things like, man, look like spaceship. I was like, 86 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,239 Speaker 3: look at that, look at the cars, like the hood 87 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: of the car is super long. It's something about seeing 88 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 3: those cars that like, really I wanted one. So to 89 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 3: come to that group where that's talking about Ferrari and 90 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 3: Porsche and Binzes and Rose Royce. They were what like 91 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 3: that Cadillac? They thought it was strange. They were like, 92 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 3: why would you want a Cadillac? And I was like, man, 93 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 3: look at it like they didn't get it, Like they 94 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: just didn't understand. 95 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 2: And what that feel like? 96 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: It's like feeling rejected a little bit. You know, you 97 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 3: like you present something that you're excited about or that 98 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 3: you love and then people laugh at it, and it 99 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 3: kind of like puts you in a position where you 100 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,799 Speaker 3: kind of doubt yourself, you know, like is this good? 101 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 3: Like should I not? You know, like you start to 102 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 3: look at your opinions or your ideas and question yourself. 103 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 3: And it was frustrating because I wanted to be myself, 104 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 3: but you also in a sense want to be a 105 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 3: part of the team. You know, you want to feel 106 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 3: like the things that you think are cool that somebody 107 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 3: else is like, I see what you're talking about. You know, 108 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 3: they can relate to it in some way, But sometimes 109 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 3: it felt like they wouldn't even try. Even though I 110 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 3: learned a lot about Porsches and Ferraris and Rolls Royces, 111 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 3: and you know, I learned a lot about it. 112 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: This car thing. It wasn't just a matter of not 113 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: fitting in and having his taste questioned. It's actually important 114 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 2: to the job relating to customers, having some sort of 115 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 2: shared understanding of the things you're into. That's how you 116 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 2: sell clothes. 117 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: In luxury fashion. A lot of your job as a 118 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 3: salesperson when they walk in is not necessarily trying to 119 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 3: sell them this one item, but to connect with them 120 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 3: and make them feel like they belong here and this 121 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: is where they want to buy it. And I think 122 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 3: it was when I started having conversations with these people 123 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 3: that I started to get a better understanding like how 124 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 3: different we were, Like, oh yeah, me and my wife 125 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 3: went to the country club and we were you know, 126 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 3: played some rounds of tennis, and then we had brunch, 127 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 3: and then we did it, and it's like, that's not 128 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 3: a part of my brand. I don't you know, I 129 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 3: don't know anybody who went to brunch when I was 130 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 3: when I was growing up. 131 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: Selling clothes to guys who are driving roles choices, this 132 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: kind of power dynamic. I mean, you found it intimidating. 133 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: He says. He kind of folded in on himself at first, 134 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: but over time it went away because he developed this 135 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: way to combat that feeling. 136 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 3: You know, growing up in my community, we have a 137 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 3: way of still being able to like find our own 138 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,719 Speaker 3: worth regardless of what such and such or whoever might have. 139 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 3: You know, you can't tell me I'm not that guy 140 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 3: because I don't have money. You may have money, you 141 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: may have the cars, whatever, But I'm flyed in you. 142 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 3: I dress better than you, I look better than you. 143 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 3: You know, like all of these things you find to 144 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 3: like stop, I ain't worried about, you know, what such 145 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 3: and such has when he walks in the door. And 146 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 3: that became like the attitude that I had to tap into. 147 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: I Maye worked at this store for a few years, 148 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 2: and then he moved to New York and started working 149 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: I didn't even higher end menswear store that kind of 150 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: place where you can't just walk out the door with clothes. 151 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: You gotta get measured and have them all tailored and everything. 152 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 2: This shop is a little more international. There were Asians 153 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 2: from all over the world and some white. 154 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 3: Guys, so it was a little bit of a mixed bag. 155 00:09:53,200 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 3: And then again just me still the only black guy here. 156 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 2: There weren't people actively questioning them Chie's taste, but still 157 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: being the only black eye, he found himself kind of 158 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 2: hemmed in trying to follow some unspoken rules about the 159 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: way he should behave all the standard code switching that 160 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 2: people of color often have to do in situations like this, 161 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 2: but maybe weirder, there seemed to be these rules that 162 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 2: the other employees in the store were following about the 163 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 2: way they should behave around him. 164 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: There were times when it was really apparent that some 165 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 3: of my white coworkers had never worked with black people before, 166 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 3: like they didn't know how what to do with themselves, 167 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 3: you know, like it manifests itself as like over compensation. 168 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: I mean sometimes it would be like just overpraising me, 169 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 3: you know, like, oh, you're doing this so well, you're 170 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 3: doing that. It's like, man, I literally just put the 171 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 3: shoe on the shelf, like why are you doing? 172 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 4: Like? 173 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 3: You know. 174 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: So it's in this environment that something happens one day 175 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 2: that really shakes him achi It makes him question all 176 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: the ways he's been adjusting himself to fit in. 177 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 3: It was a really quiet day, we didn't have a 178 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 3: whole lot going on in the shop, and this guy 179 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 3: walks in and immediately when he walks in, everybody's ears 180 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 3: kind of perk up because dude kind of looks like 181 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 3: he's homeless and tells everybody he wants to get a suit. 182 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 3: So they're like, all right, they start putting suits on him. 183 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 3: You know, he's trying on everything. He eventually ends up 184 00:11:54,559 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 3: with a whole kid on shirt, jacket, shoes, socks, tie, 185 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 3: whole thing, and he puts it on. He's looking at mirror. 186 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 3: He's like, oh yeah, man, I like it. He's like, 187 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 3: I'll take it. And we're all kind of like because 188 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 3: all of the clothes at this shop come unfinished. So 189 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 3: the hem on the pants is not done, the sleeves 190 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 3: are not done, and it looks like at this point 191 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 3: the suit is swallowing him a little bit. 192 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 2: I mean she is standing off to the side watching 193 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: all this happen. The guy tells the salesmen that are 194 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 2: helping him that he'll take the suit as is. He 195 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: wants to walk out wearing it. 196 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 3: So he gets up to the counter and they ring 197 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 3: everything up, comes out to a couple thousand dollars, and 198 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 3: he starts looking for his wallet. After we give him total. 199 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 3: He's like patting his pockets, and we're like, oh, man, 200 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 3: I think in the back of everybody's mind, we're like, 201 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 3: he ain't got no wallet. And he starts patting his pockets. 202 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 3: He's like, maybe i'll lift it in dressing room, goes 203 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 3: back in the dressing room. There's no wallet, and we're 204 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 3: preparing for something to happen. We're like, all right, he 205 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 3: can't find his wallet. Like this is the point where 206 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 3: he just like braks for the door and tries to 207 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 3: tackle somebody, you know. So you know, we kind of 208 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 3: get into this formation that lets him know like, you know, 209 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 3: we're all here, we're all paying attention, we're all alert, 210 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 3: and you can kind of see him looking around and checking. 211 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 3: He sees somebody at the door, he sees somebody standing 212 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 3: next to him. The guy at the counter is just 213 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 3: kind of like waiting, like what you're gonna do, and 214 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 3: then he just kind of pauses and says, you know what, 215 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: I guess I'm just gonna come back, you know, I 216 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 3: gotta go find my wallet, and goes back to the 217 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 3: fitting room, takes everything off, and leaves, never comes back. 218 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 3: That was a particularly strange like scenario for me because 219 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 3: the guy happened to be black. I had my own 220 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 3: you know, there was my own ideas, my own thoughts 221 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 3: that were that were happening while this was going, and 222 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 3: I think one of them was feeling like, oh man, 223 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 3: why is this guy coming in here and and doing this? 224 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 3: Why is he making us look bad? You know, That's 225 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 3: that's what's going through my head at the time. It 226 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 3: was unfair, that was I mean to say that, like, 227 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 3: in hindsight, that's an unfair way to look at that, 228 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 3: But that was that was what I was thinking at 229 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: that time. 230 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: Did you guys talk about it after the guy left? 231 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 3: I think when he walked out the door, everybody just 232 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 3: kind of stared at each other for like thirty seconds. 233 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 3: We were just like trying to figure out exactly what, 234 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 3: you know, what just happened. Yeah, that was something I 235 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 3: more had to sit with on my own, and I 236 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 3: don't I don't even think I talked to any friends 237 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 3: about it or or really got to like hash that 238 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 3: out with anybody. 239 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 2: What is that making us look bad? 240 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 4: What? 241 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: What in what way were you thinking, like he's making 242 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: us look bad? I think I understand, but uh, well, 243 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: you know, like there's this idea in in the black 244 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: community that like we always have to be on our 245 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: best behavior, like we all have to be doing, you know, 246 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: doing the right thing. Like you know, a white person 247 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: or anybody, it doesn't have to necessarily be somebody white, 248 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 2: but they experience like a black person, one black person 249 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: or two or five, and then they say black people 250 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: are this, or they behave like that, or black people 251 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: are always doing this. So where I was coming from 252 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 2: when I thought that was, you know, like this is 253 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: just another strike on that you know, on that list. 254 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: You know, someone who's not black experiencing a black person 255 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: in this way and them putting that like, oh they 256 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: black people, da da da. And this is in my mind, 257 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: this may not even be what these other people were thinking, 258 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: but this is just because of how I'm experiencing the 259 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 2: world and people who look like me have experienced the world. 260 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: This is what's going through my mind. 261 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 3: I may and with all my coworkers, with all of 262 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 3: the people that we work with, I might be the 263 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 3: only black person they ever interact with, you know, in 264 00:16:54,640 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 3: their life, and I just think about like those space. 265 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 3: I think in that space, I was thinking, well, like, 266 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 3: we're never here, so when we do show up, it 267 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 3: needs to be in the best light. 268 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 2: Did that make you think anything at all about the 269 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: way that it's different? But in some ways you had 270 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 2: to be on your best behavior at these places, Like 271 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 2: you couldn't be one hundred percent authentically who you were. 272 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I felt like that. And maybe some of 273 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 3: that might have been in my head too, you know, 274 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 3: thinking that I couldn't be myself, and maybe I could 275 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 3: have been and they would have been totally accepting of it. 276 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 3: You know, that's quite possible. But I think at that time, 277 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 3: I don't think I ever felt comfortable completely, you know, 278 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 3: one hundred percent being myself because there was still a 279 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 3: little bit of discomfort for me in being the only 280 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 3: black guy, like being the only black person. I still 281 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 3: feel like there were certain topics, certain subjects that I 282 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 3: would only want to talk about with other black people, 283 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 3: or only want to hear the perspective of certain people. 284 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 3: I mean, like I think about that scenario that I 285 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 3: just told you about. It's like I couldn't imagine ever 286 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 3: having that conversation with somebody, or telling somebody about my 287 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 3: thoughts and how I felt with somebody who wasn't black 288 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 3: up until now, because if you don't come from that 289 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 3: or understand why I might have thought that, it'd be 290 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 3: hard for you to understand where I was coming from 291 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 3: or how to rationalize what it was I was saying. 292 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: I mean, chi Uu no longer works at that shop 293 00:18:55,119 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 2: in New York. His last retail job was in twenty twenty. 294 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 2: In some ways, he's returned to a place where he's 295 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: not having to think about things like this all the time. 296 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 2: He now runs his own brand, making sportswear for HBCUs. 297 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 2: It's called Torch Sportswear. 298 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 3: Where I am now, I don't think I'll ever work 299 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 3: another retail job. I pray that I never have to 300 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 3: work in retail again, but I know that if that 301 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 3: day ever came, my approach would be a lot different. 302 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 3: You know, how I would move in that space and 303 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 3: how I would present myself would be different than I 304 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 3: have in the past. I can't compress myself anymore. 305 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: I'm never going to fully understand what it was like 306 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 2: for Amhi in that moment, but it makes so much sense. 307 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 2: I think you probably understand it to some degree too. 308 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: But I have had experiences where the combination of race 309 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: and class has made me do things that I have questioned. 310 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 2: I'm a pretty white, passing Latino. I grew up with 311 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 2: the culture. My first language was Spanglish, but my Spanish 312 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: is pretty broken now. Sometimes people don't know I'm Latino 313 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: until I tell them, Like this one time at work, 314 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 2: someone pointed at my face after I told them, and 315 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 2: they said, I knew there was something going on there. 316 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: The thing that's happened for me, the way that I 317 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 2: have frankly gotten a little confused, I guess when it 318 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: comes to race and class, is that when I decided 319 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 2: that I wanted a life where I could be creative 320 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 2: and not have to do manual labor, I mostly look 321 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: to white people and white culture, but like odd, dorky 322 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 2: pockets of white culture. Like when I was a teenager, 323 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 2: one of my first exposures to journalism, the thing I 324 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 2: would watch whenever it was on TV was this guy, 325 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 2: Hugh Houser. He was from Tennessee and he'd travel all 326 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 2: over California with a microphone, doing features on things like 327 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 2: making peanut brittle. 328 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: Now we're gonna pour it out. 329 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 2: That's right there. 330 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: You go, oh look, now that's peanut brittle. 331 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 3: That's peanut brittle. 332 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: There's other stuff too. I'm an eagle Scout. I wore 333 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: that uniform until I was eighteen years old. But maybe 334 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: the strangest thing I got into I think I am 335 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 2: very embarrassed to confess right now, is it. For a 336 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: year or two when I was in high school, I 337 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: had a subscription to Country Living magazine. I think maybe 338 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 2: it started because I was into ram and they were 339 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 2: from the South, or maybe I just wanted out of 340 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 2: my house, out of my boring suburban town, and the 341 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 2: country somehow seemed appealing. I don't know, but one day 342 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 2: in the grocery store I picked up this magazine and 343 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 2: I just couldn't get enough. There was feature after feature 344 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 2: of nice, proper little houses out in the country somewhere, 345 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: with everything decorated just so. I thought it was so classy. 346 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: It was like Dwell Magazine if Colonel Sanders was the 347 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: editor in chief. 348 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 4: I loved it. 349 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: And you know, people of color are allowed to consume 350 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 2: whatever culture. They want all this nerdy white stuff. It 351 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: influenced me deeply, still does. My daughter makes fun of 352 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 2: me because I will watch hours and hours of that 353 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 2: home renovation show Hometown that's basically country living on HGTV. 354 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 2: The part of all of this that feels upsetting is 355 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 2: that when I was looking for an escape hatch, I 356 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: didn't see any examples of Latinos out there. They were 357 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 2: there in music and film and literature, even journalism. I 358 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 2: know that now, but they weren't on the TV. They 359 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 2: weren't mainstream. This was all happening at a time when 360 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 2: anti immigrant fervor was raging in California. Voters had overwhelmingly 361 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 2: supported Prop One eighty seven, basically taking away all social 362 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 2: services for undocumented immigrants, and kids at my school were 363 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: openly talking to me about Mexicans stealing jobs and living 364 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: off of welfare. At the same time, some people in 365 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: my own family were calling me owero for living in 366 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: the suburbs and being into the things I was into. 367 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: I think, in some ways, through some combination of all 368 00:23:53,840 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 2: of that, I internalized that Latinos didn't deserve better, that 369 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 2: we didn't deserve nice things. Coming up, someone helps me 370 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 2: see that we do, all right, Jonathan, back here, you're 371 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 2: very classy host. Brenda Akihwa is a luxury fashion designer 372 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: in la Her work has been featured in Vogue and 373 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 2: The La Times. Bad Bunny and Lil nas X have 374 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 2: worn her stuff, but it took her a while to 375 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 2: get to that place. Her journey into the world of 376 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 2: fashion started in high school when she applied to Parsons, 377 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 2: the Art and Design College in New York. 378 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 4: I'd heard of that school just through overhearing someone's conversation. 379 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 4: That's how I heard about that fashion school. 380 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: Someone at school. 381 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, someone at school. So I'm a very curious person, 382 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 4: and that's how I've acquired. Percent of the information has 383 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 4: been through nosiness. You know, I am a professional Chi's moosa, 384 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 4: that's use this information for good reasons. 385 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 2: A chismosa is a gossip and you could call Brenda 386 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 2: a Chi's moosa. But really what she was was an observer, 387 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 2: the trait she picked up from her mom. Brenda grew 388 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: up in Santa Barbara, California. It's a town right on 389 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 2: the beach, super affluent. Brenda was being raised by her 390 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 2: single mom there in a Latino community that was mostly 391 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: employed working for the rich, mostly white people in town. 392 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: Brenda's mom cleaned houses, and sometimes Brenda would come along 393 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 2: with her, and she'd see firsthand the way her mom 394 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: was actively studying these people's lives. 395 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 4: So my mom would always show us like, oh, look, 396 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 4: you know, smell this perfume. It smells really good. We 397 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 4: should get this. Or I've seen this grandma at this 398 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 4: other lady's house, so this must be really good, you know. 399 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 4: And so we learned through this sort of unauthorized access 400 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 4: what good products were that we wouldn't have known otherwise. 401 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: Brenda's mom would do the same at yard sales. She'd 402 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: drive her rich neighborhoods and buy up all the brand 403 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 2: name clothing they couldn't normally afford. She got brand of fancy, 404 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 2: almost over the top stuff for coats, this pleated vintage 405 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 2: dress from the thirties. 406 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 4: In my world, having a crocodile alligator clutch, you know, 407 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 4: in junior high was totally normal. 408 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: Her mom would indulge in nice clothes too, living out 409 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: a life where she was saying that you can be 410 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 2: classy no matter where you come from. 411 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 4: My mom was wearing evening gowns like to my fifth 412 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 4: grade parties that were outside in the dusty like environment 413 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 4: of our apartment complex, and she'd be decked out for 414 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 4: our parties, like she was like my Beyonce, And now 415 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 4: that I'm older, I'm like, that's so cool that she 416 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 4: was like that because maybe in her mind she knew 417 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 4: that she might not ever have the opportunity to wear 418 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 4: that gown to whatever is considered acceptable. 419 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 2: So she's Mosa Brenda. She overhears about this fashion school 420 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: in New York. She applies to Parsons, she gets in. 421 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 2: She can't afford to visit New York before she goes, 422 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 2: really can't afford the school, but the community rallies around 423 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 2: her to help her cover some costs, and once she's there, 424 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 2: she's overwhelmed by the level of wealth. There are students 425 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 2: from all over the world, and they are wealthy in 426 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 2: a way that even growing up in Santa Barbara, she'd 427 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 2: never seen. 428 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 4: I had a friend who told me that, you know, 429 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 4: back home, she'd come out of the shower and all 430 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 4: of her clothes was already laid. 431 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 2: Out for her, who laid out her clothes. 432 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 4: Her workers. 433 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 2: But the thing she really notices, the thing she struggles with, 434 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: is that it Parsons all the reference points come from 435 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: white culture. It's in the designers they're being taught about 436 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 2: and the classic films they're being shown. 437 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,719 Speaker 4: Some of the movies were like Gone with the Wind 438 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 4: and some like It Hot, You. 439 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 3: Like go watch My Do Frankly might hair, I don't 440 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 3: give a damn. 441 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 4: And these were the things that you were supposed to know, 442 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 4: right like the Marilyn Monroe, Catherine have Burned, you know 443 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:08,239 Speaker 4: what are considered American classic icons and movies. It was 444 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 4: good education, Like I was happy to learn it because 445 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 4: I didn't really have a lot of exposure to that. 446 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 4: I mean, I did grow up watching classic films, but 447 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 4: they were Mexican ones. They were movies with Betherin Fante 448 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 4: and Maria Felix. And then of course we're in New York, 449 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 4: so it was all about being chic, and it was 450 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 4: about Calvin Klein and Donna Karen and Jill Sander, and 451 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 4: it was about being sleek and chic and clean cut. 452 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 2: Brenda says she was in survival mode at Parsons. She 453 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: was scraping money together to buy fabric for her projects. 454 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: She was basically just eating bagels with cream cheese for 455 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 2: every meal, and on this tight budget and under stress. 456 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 2: She couldn't make work that matched the garments she was 457 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 2: seeing in her head. She started failing classes. 458 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 4: And as this was happening, I remember I went on 459 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 4: a walk one day with one of the guys that 460 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 4: I was in class with, and I shared with him 461 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 4: my story of how I was being failed, and he 462 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 4: told me that he had a woman that lived with him, 463 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 4: that cooked for him, cleaned for him, and sewed all 464 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 4: of his projects for him. And I'm just listening to 465 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 4: this story, thinking, our worlds are so drastically different, I 466 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 4: can't even believe that we're being graded by the same standards. 467 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 2: Brenda eventually finds her stride. She manages to get through Parsons. 468 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: After she graduates, she gets a couple different jobs working 469 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: in the industry as a designer, but she finds it 470 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: working in the fashion world. It's like Parsons the Reboot. 471 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 2: There's money, there's whiteness. She's working in fashion, but she's miserable. 472 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: The people she really connects with are the pattern makers, 473 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: who are working class, mostly Asian and Latino. She really 474 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 2: values the level of skill they're bringing to the work, 475 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: but still she wants to build something of her own. 476 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: And then one day, she's with her family. They're driving 477 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 2: to Six Flags Magic Mountain. Her brothers at the wheel, 478 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 2: and she says. 479 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 4: Turn the music down. I have an announcement. I have 480 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 4: something I want to tell you guys. So they turn 481 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 4: the music down and I told them I have this 482 00:31:54,440 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 4: crazy idea. I want to make jackets and outer wear 483 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 4: out of Golobeha blankets. 484 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: Okay, Latinos, this school golobia has are these blankets that 485 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: are super popular in the Latino community. They're soft, thick, plushy, 486 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 2: and probably the most notable thing about them is that 487 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 2: they're loud. You can get them with almost anything printed 488 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 2: on them, Lakers logo, the Virgin Mary. A lot of 489 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 2: them have exotic animals, tigers and lions and wolves and 490 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 2: cheetahs and wild horses and tigers and unicorns and tigers, 491 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: so many tigers. I still have some that I've had 492 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 2: since I was a kid. They're also pretty cheap. So 493 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: with this idea, the next day, Brenda goes to her 494 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 2: studio and gets to work right away. She wants to 495 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 2: take gobe has and turn them into something luxurious. 496 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 4: I built a pattern, I figured out what, you know, 497 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 4: what I need to do first and try to figure 498 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 4: out the steps, and I knew that it logistically it 499 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 4: was going to be a hot disaster. 500 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 2: Okay, I understand you like have this vision, but why, like, 501 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: why do you want to take this thing that is 502 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: seen as cheap and kind of even like low class 503 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: if people even know about it at all? Why do 504 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 2: you want to take that and turn it into a coat? 505 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 3: Gosh? 506 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 4: You know, I mean it's my story. I feel like 507 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 4: it's very much me right, Like I came from that 508 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 4: world and then I learned all of these things, like 509 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 4: all of like ways of seeing that were a bit different, 510 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 4: And when I thought about the blankets, a part of 511 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 4: me felt like, damn, I really don't want this to disappear. 512 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 2: Is any of it at all a kind of fuck 513 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 2: you to a culture that sort of rejected you for 514 00:33:59,520 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 2: a while? 515 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 3: Oh? 516 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 4: Absolutely. My life has been a series of fuck yous 517 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,439 Speaker 4: at every environment that I've been in. You know, that's 518 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 4: always been me. I've always been like with my finger 519 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 4: out in every environment. That's why I'm like, I don't 520 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 4: care if I belong, I'm going to be here. This 521 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 4: is where I need to be. Growing up in Santa 522 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 4: Barbara and going to school aut Parsons and being in 523 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 4: the industry, it was always felt like this very curated 524 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 4: experience by other people that didn't feel relatable to me, 525 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 4: And I was like, how do I change that? Like 526 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 4: this isn't right, this doesn't feel good. 527 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 2: I'm so jealous of people like this who can walk 528 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 2: through the world giving the bird and relying on the 529 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 2: strength of that, that ability to deflect rich with your 530 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 2: middle fingers like their wonder Woman's bracelets. I've tried being angry, 531 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 2: but all it ever got me was bitterness and callouses. Instead, 532 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 2: I've kept my middle fingers in my pockets and tried 533 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 2: to blend in. For me, that seemed like the classiest 534 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: way to get by, But I don't know. Now I'm 535 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 2: not so sure. 536 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 4: I'm about to try on the devotion coat. 537 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I was stuck in my closet with all my 538 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 2: lame clothes while I was talking to Brenda. But my 539 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 2: producer Kristen was there in Brenda's studio in La surrounded 540 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 2: by all Herkulebeha inspired clothes. Kristin pulled out a full 541 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,439 Speaker 2: length hooded coat. It's deep red with roses all over 542 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 2: the front, no big gest virgin mary on the back. 543 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: My gosh, thank you. 544 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:12,760 Speaker 4: Wow, Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Like eating, but wow, 545 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 4: I look so fine. 546 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 3: The pockets are perfect. The moment I put my arm in. 547 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: The sleeve, I felt like. 548 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 4: Ephic like it, Like I just felt like my arm 549 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 4: just dipped into some like comfort puddle. 550 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what we try to do. 551 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 2: Wow, these coats are so nice. Anybody who's spent winter's 552 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 2: snuggles under golovi hus LUs after them. But I wondered 553 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 2: how Brenda felt taking this blanket you can get for 554 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 2: forty dollars, this working class immigrant luxury item, and turning 555 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 2: it into coats that some of them I sell for 556 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: more than seven hundred dollars. 557 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 4: These codes don't have to be that price. I make 558 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 4: them that price because of all the work and the 559 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 4: details that I put into it. You know, Like we 560 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 4: buy all of our zippers here in LA because they're 561 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 4: the best zippers that I could find. So they are 562 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 4: expensive because I make them more expensive than they should 563 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 4: be through my choices. And that is my education. That 564 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 4: is me. Like, that is how I grew up. I 565 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 4: wanted to have nice things. I like how nice things feel. 566 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,280 Speaker 4: I like having them in my home. I like touching 567 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 4: nice things. I like looking at them, so I make 568 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 4: things that look and feel good. You know, we've never 569 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 4: been given the authority to be the curators of style, 570 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 4: and that's sort of what I feel like I want 571 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 4: to do. 572 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:17,320 Speaker 2: Loudly hearing Brenda's say this, it had a profound effect 573 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,879 Speaker 2: on me, just hearing someone say it's okay to have 574 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 2: nice things and that those nice things don't have to 575 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 2: be what mainstream culture says they are. A lot of 576 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 2: us are Latinos because we grew up with people who 577 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: didn't have nice things, and because the images of Latinos 578 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 2: that we see most often are people who are suffering 579 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 2: and working their asses off, desperately trying to build new lives. 580 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 2: Sometimes it feels like an abandonment to want, but I want. 581 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 2: It wasn't immediately after this interview, but sometime in the 582 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 2: making of this show, I put on this this old 583 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 2: gold chain my dad had given me when I was 584 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 2: a teenager. When he first gave it to me, it 585 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 2: didn't feel right. It wasn't my Weddo vibe at the time. 586 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 2: But a few weeks ago I dug the chain out 587 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 2: of a little box in my nightstand and I put 588 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 2: it on and it looked right. I know gold chains 589 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,760 Speaker 2: aren't solely the domain of latinos, just like country living 590 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 2: isn't just for white people. But this one is. It's gold, 591 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 2: and it's a little loud, and it looks good on me. Okay, 592 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,919 Speaker 2: here we are. We've been talking about class for three episodes, 593 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 2: and man, it is even clearer to me now than 594 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 2: when we started that class can be so sticky and uncomfortable, 595 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 2: and you know, nobody's perfect no matter what our class 596 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,720 Speaker 2: background is. We are all bound to cross some lines 597 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 2: and make mistakes, maybe even defend people. And I don't 598 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 2: necessarily have all the answers for what to do in 599 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 2: those situations, but I know someone who might be able 600 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 2: to help, and he's going to answer your questions. That's 601 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 2: on the next episode of Classy. Classy is a production 602 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 2: of Pineapple Street Studios. It's written and produced by me 603 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 2: Jonathan men Ivar. Our producer is Kristin Torres, Associate producer 604 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 2: Marina Hanke, Senior managing producer Asha Saluja. Our editor is 605 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: Haley Howell, Executive editor Joel Lovel. Our assistant engineers are 606 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,879 Speaker 2: Sharon Bardallas and Jade Brooks. Senior engineers are Mari Na 607 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 2: Fais and bedro Lviira, fact checking by Tom Colligan. This 608 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 2: episode was mixed and scored by Marina Pais, with additional 609 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 2: scoring by Me. Music in this episode from Joseph Chabasan 610 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,359 Speaker 2: courtesy of Western Vinyl Joseph Chabasan and Vibrant Matter and 611 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 2: Shavason and Gunning courtesy of Seance Center. Additional music from 612 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:27,280 Speaker 2: Epidemic Sound. Our artwork is by Kurt Courtney and Lauren 613 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 2: Vira at Cadence thirteen. Marketing and promotion by Grace cohen Chen, 614 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 2: Hillary Schuff and Liz O'Malley. Legal services for Pineapple Street 615 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 2: Studios by Crystal Tupia at Odyssey Special thanks to Jeremy Kirkland. 616 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,880 Speaker 2: Jenna Wey Sperman and Max Lensky are the executive producers 617 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 2: at Pineapple Street. The next episode will be out in 618 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 2: a week. Make sure to listen on the Odyssey app 619 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.