1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,199 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war Wicked On Exactly Right. I've 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 9 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 10 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 12 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: My name is Pamela Koloff. I'm a staff writer at 14 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: The New York Times magazine and a senior reporter at 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: Pro Publica. 16 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: Pam is one of the most wonderful people I know, 17 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: and this story was really really important to her. She 18 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: worked on it for years. 19 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 2: I had been covering criminal justice for over twenty years 20 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: when I found the Joe Brian case, and what led 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: me there was I had been looking into various causes 22 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: of wrongful convictions and something that had caught my attention 23 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: in I can't tell you how many different cases I 24 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: had looked at or trials i'd sat through with something 25 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 2: called blood stained pattern analysis, which most people are familiar 26 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 2: with from the show DEXTERI CSI. And the basic idea 27 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 2: is that somebody who is highly trained in this quote 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 2: unquote science and I put quotes around that because I 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: ask many questions about what this really is can look 30 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: at the blood spatters in a crime scene, no other 31 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: factors in the crime scene, but the blood spatters alone, 32 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: and they can sort of read it as a text 33 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: of what happened in the crime and that can solve 34 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 2: crimes and lead to suspects and so forth. 35 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Before we get into that, can you tell me a 36 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: little bit about Joe brian story. 37 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: So, Joe Brian and his wife Mickey lived in Clifton, Texas, 38 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 2: which is about a half hour east of Waco in 39 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 2: Central Texas. It's a pretty rural area and Joe was 40 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 2: the beloved principle of Clifton High School. Just to really, 41 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: I cannot tell you how many people told me wonderful 42 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: things about Joe and how much they loved him. He 43 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 2: had and still has a very outgoing, almost bubbly personality. 44 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 2: He knew every kid by their first name. He was deeply, 45 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: deeply involved in their lives, as was Mickey. So Mickey 46 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 2: was a fourth grade teacher at Clifton Elementary School. She 47 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: was a much more reticent, sort of shyer person. But 48 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: they worked together really well as a couple. A lot 49 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 2: of people describe them to me as a team. A 50 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: lot of women commented on this in sort of a 51 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: very admiring way, like they work together way that they 52 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: didn't see other couples work together. They were not able 53 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: to have children, and that fact really bonded them, and 54 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: their children sort of became the kids that they taught. 55 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: And so if a kid was having trouble at home, 56 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: or didn't have lunch, didn't have food, they stepped in 57 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: and took care of those problems. So they were very, 58 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: very beloved members of the community. And what did you 59 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 2: know about their personal life? Of course before all this happened. 60 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: So one of the things that was so interesting about 61 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: this case is that I literally could not find one 62 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: person who could tell me anything bad or troubling that 63 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: they had ever seen about this marriage. They would usually 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: end the day around five o'clock by walking around Clifton 65 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: hand in hand, and they would stop and they would 66 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: talk to friends and visit with them before going home 67 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: and having dinner, and then they would grade papers together. 68 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: And they were just a very tight knit duo. No 69 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: one could remember them ever having an argument or any 70 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: frustration at all with each other. 71 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: So as somebody who's married, I'm often tiny, tiny suspicious 72 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: of that because it's really hard to believe that no 73 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: one has ever seen any sort of tension. 74 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 3: Can we just go ahead and take that as for 75 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 3: face value? You think so? 76 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 2: I think here's why I think we can. And I'll say, 77 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: of course, we never know what goes on behind closed doors, 78 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: of course, But it was such a small community. I 79 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 2: mean I really cannot get across you know, when I 80 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: would go to interview people there, everybody would know I 81 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 2: was in town. I mean, they were just I don't 82 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: mean there are no secrets, of course, that's not true. 83 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: But with both of them having such public jobs, being 84 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 2: around people constantly, Joe was on call in one way 85 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: or another six seven days out of the week. He 86 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: was working like every Friday night football game, He's in 87 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: the stands talking to all the families, it was such 88 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: a glass house that they lived in, and so I'm 89 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: sure there were their tensions, it didn't seem like there 90 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: are any big secrets that they were hiding. 91 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: Did you go into this case with any sort of 92 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: preconceived notions or I mean, you know, when you do 93 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: anything like this is this? Are you letting the evidence 94 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: take you where it goes? I'm assuming yes, definitely. 95 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: And as I'll explain in a moment, because Mickey is 96 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 2: the person who was the victim of this murder, obviously 97 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: the very first person you're going to look at is 98 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 2: the husband. And I don't have the statistics in front 99 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: of me, but of course, overwhelmingly in these kinds of cases, 100 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: the woman's partner is the perpetrator. So quite naturally it 101 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 2: makes sense to really scrutinize Joe and to really look 102 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 2: at what motive he might have had and what opportunity 103 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 2: he might have had to commit this crime. 104 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the crime and take it from whenever, 105 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: however far back you need to. 106 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 2: So Joe went out of town. This was in October 107 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty five. He went about an hour and 108 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: a half away to Austin, and he went to attend 109 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: a principal's convention. This was something that all these principles 110 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: did back then, and he was in Austin for a 111 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 2: couple of days, and during that trip, on the night 112 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: of October fifteenth, Mickey was murdered in their home, in 113 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 2: their bedroom. She was shot four times, and it was, 114 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: as you can imagine from how I've described this town, 115 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: just completely shocking in sort of an unbelievable event. This 116 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 2: was a woman who was a very shy, mild mannered person, 117 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: with no enemies, everyone loved Mickey, no obvious motive for 118 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: any such thing. Because of all these reasons, and because 119 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: of the fact that Joe was out of town, the 120 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 2: initial investigation sort of began from the point that this 121 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 2: was a botched robbery. 122 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 3: And one thought I. 123 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 2: Always had was, with Joe being such a public figure, 124 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: that people at the high school would have known that 125 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 2: he was out of town, and maybe they thought that 126 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 2: Mickey went with him and that this was a good 127 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: house to hit, right for a robbery. 128 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 3: That's just my little theory. 129 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: But Joe was not a suspect for the first week 130 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: of this investigation, and there were in fact no suspects. 131 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 2: There was virtually no physical evidence of any kind to 132 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: look at, no fingerprints that could be discerned. The murder 133 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: weapon was a gun that was already in the house. 134 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: Like many people in rural Texas, they owned a gun, 135 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: and so there was no obvious place to look as 136 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: to who had done this. 137 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: Who is investigating this case? Is it Waco or Clifton, or. 138 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 3: It's local law enforcement. 139 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 2: But within maybe an hour of Mickey's body being found 140 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: that Texas Rangers are called in the Texas Rangers are as, 141 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: some listeners may know a rather elite law enforcement force 142 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: here that sort of like our FBI. And an investigator 143 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: named Joe Wiley was brought into the case. And again 144 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: in those early days, they did some really rudimentary questioning 145 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: of Joe, but it was agreed upon that he was 146 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: out of town. Many people had seen him at this conference. 147 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: So they were working on a timeline and they just 148 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: basically figured out that there was They were able to 149 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: piece it together that it just seemed like it was 150 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: unlikely that he would have been able to be. 151 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 3: In Austin and do this and you know, do this 152 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 3: murder and then come back. 153 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: Initially, no one suspected this. The time of death was 154 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: estimated to be around. I think it was around two 155 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, was in the you know, dead 156 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: of night, and Joe, according to his timeline, had spoken 157 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: to Mickey at about eight or nine o'clock that evening. 158 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: They had talked about the rain, just you know, basic 159 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 2: conversation about the day. They had said good night, Joe 160 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: had turned on the music Awards, had watched that, had 161 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 2: drifted off to sleep around eleven, and had woken up 162 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: six or seven that morning and gotten ready and gone 163 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: to the first meeting for the conference that morning. So 164 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 2: he was asleep at the time that this murder happened, 165 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 2: and so initially no one really thought much of that. 166 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 3: When did things turn against him? 167 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 2: So almost a week after this, the Texas Rangers got 168 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: a call from Mickey's brother, whose name is Charlie Blue. Actually, 169 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: they got a call from the private investigator who was 170 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 2: working with him. Charlie Blue was Mickey's brother, and Mickey 171 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: and Charlie were not close, but Charlie had come into 172 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: town for her funeral and he didn't have any way 173 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: to get around, so he had asked Joe if he 174 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 2: could borrow his car while he was in town, and 175 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: Joe lent Charlie's car. So Charlie had been driving Joe's 176 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 2: car around at that point for four or five days. 177 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: It had been out of Joe's hands at that point, 178 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: and Charlie was frustrated, according to his account, with the 179 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: lack of progress and the investigation, so he had hired 180 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: a private investigator. He did not tell Joe. This private 181 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: investigator comes to town. They meet at the Dairy Queen. 182 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: According to Charlie's account, he and the private investigator, Bud Saunders, 183 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: went for a drive. While they're driving out in the country, 184 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 2: talking about the case, they pull over to relieve themselves. 185 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: They get mud on their shoes. They pop the trunk 186 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: looking for a towel or something to wipe the mud 187 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: off of their shoes. And when they do, they see 188 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 2: a flashlight in the trunk, and they see what appears 189 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: to be blood spattered on the flashlight. There's a sort 190 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 2: of odd series of events that then happens. And I 191 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: should note that no mud was ever found in the car. 192 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: No mud, despite the that they said they had money shoes, 193 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: and they got back into the car presumably drove back okay, exactly, 194 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: so an inconsistency already. 195 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 3: So and this. 196 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: Clue that sort of breaks open. The case is found 197 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: within an hour of the private investigator arriving in town. 198 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: Instead of immediately calling law enforcement, they go to the 199 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: Brian home, which is unlocked because they had there'd been 200 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: a cleaning crew there. They let themselves in, They spend 201 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 2: an undeterminate amount of time there, and then, according to 202 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 2: their timeline, instead of using the phone there, they go 203 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: to a payphone. They call the Texas Rangers and they say, 204 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 2: we found this bloody flashlight, and from there the investigation takes. 205 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: A big turn. 206 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: But I'll just say that that story I always found 207 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 2: very very odd, and neither mister Blue nor mister Saunders 208 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 2: would ever speak to me, but they both swore and 209 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 2: swore n affidavits that this is exactly what happened. 210 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: So the Texas Range are obviously convinced to some extent 211 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: to buy this. What could they do in this time 212 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: period with blood? Is it just blood typing at this point, right, 213 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. 214 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 2: So nineteen eighty five, all they could do was type 215 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: the blood, and they typed the blood and it was 216 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 2: indeed the same type of blood that Mickey had. However, 217 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: about fifty percent of Americans have this type. 218 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 3: I mean, it doesn't. 219 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 2: On the one hand, it sounds so terrible, the same 220 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 2: type as Mickey's blood. On the other hand, probably half 221 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 2: the people involved with this case had the same type 222 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 2: of blood. So when that typing happens, at that point, 223 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 2: Joe becomes suspect number one, and the idea is, there's 224 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 2: no other explanation. This must be Mickey's blood. There must 225 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 2: be a connection between the two things. There was a 226 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: bloodstained pattern analyst who was called in to process the 227 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: crime scene the morning after the crime happened. His name 228 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 2: was Robert Thorman. He was from a nearby police department, 229 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: and so there was someone who had already analyzed the 230 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 2: blood at the scene and hadn't really come up with much. 231 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 2: That same quote unquote expert will be called in at 232 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 2: Joe's trial, and what he does is he definitively connects 233 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: the flashlight with the crime scene. He says, the way 234 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: that this blood is distributed on the lens of this 235 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: flashlight can only have happened in the following way. And 236 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: he says that the killer had to have been holding 237 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: the flashlight in one hand and the gun in the 238 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,719 Speaker 2: other as he approached Mickey, and that the blood then 239 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: spattered in this very particular distinct way. He basically took 240 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 2: what was sort of looked suspicious and tied it all 241 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: together into one cohesive story. There are all sorts of 242 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 2: problems with this, but I'll just say that one of 243 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 2: the logic issues I always had was why would Joe 244 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 2: need a flashlight in his own home to do anything? 245 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: Is the flashlight still around? The flashlight is still in 246 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: DPS custody today. 247 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: This flashlight is found in Joe's car? Is that right correct? 248 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 1: So how if he didn't do it, how did it 249 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: get into his car? 250 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: Joe is as baffled by all of this as anyone. 251 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: Joe is adamant that the night of Mickey's murder he 252 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: was asleep in his bed at the hotel, and, as 253 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: his own attorneys will point out a trial, the fact 254 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: that you know, according to the state's timeline at trial, 255 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 2: that Joe snuck out of a hotel where he knew 256 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: many of the participants in this convention and no one 257 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: saw him, then drove one hundred and twenty miles in 258 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: pouring rain back to Clifton without anyone in Clifton seeing 259 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 2: his car or seeing him. Shot his wife got back 260 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 2: in the car, didn't get any blood. No blood is 261 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: ever found in the interior or the car. This is 262 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 2: a very very bloody crime scene, very messy scene. Then 263 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 2: gets back in the car, doesn't get any apparent blood 264 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: on the car or on his clothes or however he 265 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: would have done that. Then drives one hundred and twenty 266 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 2: miles back in the pouring rain. Then goes back into 267 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: the hotel again where he knows everybody, and no one, 268 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: not even like a guard or doorman, anyone ever sees 269 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 2: him go back, and then pretends everything's fine the next morning. 270 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: Is ludicrous, but that is the timeline that the state presented. 271 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: It was a flashlight from the Brian home, which remember 272 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: mister Bloom mister Saunders had entered. We know that from 273 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 2: their own statements. One of the things Joe told me 274 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: was that a terrible snake problem in their yard, which 275 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 2: is common to the area, and they would sometimes have 276 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: to go out at night. The flashlight had come into 277 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: play sometimes when they had to kill snakes, which is 278 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 2: why they had gotten the gun they had in the house. 279 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: The gun only had pellets in it, It wasn't regular bullets, 280 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: which was why the crime scene was so incredibly messy. 281 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: I'm sorry to put it that way, but that is 282 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: a fact of the case. One theory was it possible 283 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: that this had happen while killing something in the yard? 284 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 3: Four shots? Who knows. 285 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: I don't ever get a definitive explanation of whose blood 286 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: that is that was on the flashlight. 287 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: The pellet. Is this more destructive or less destructive? 288 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 2: It doesn't penetrate as far, but there are multiple different 289 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: contact wounds, if that makes sense. So it was a 290 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: horrific crime scene. And because there were pellets involved, there 291 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 2: were not the sort of typical bloodstains where you might, 292 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: in ideal conditions be able to try to trace trajectories 293 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: of bullets or that sort of thing. This was just 294 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 2: a very bloody, messy crime scene. 295 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: Four shots seems like a lot to me for a robber, 296 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: for a meek woman who was in bed. Let's start 297 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: with the state's theory about the motive. 298 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 2: One thing I've always wondered was whether Mickey heard someone 299 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: come into the house she knew Joe was out of 300 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 2: town grab the gun because the gun was kept by 301 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 2: the side of the bed, and just everything I know 302 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 2: about her personality, I can completely imagine her not able 303 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: to actually fire that weapon. Was it wrested away from 304 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 2: her and then used on her. These are theories. It's 305 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: just one of many possibilities. One of the interesting things 306 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: about the case against Joe is that there's never a 307 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 2: coherent motive that is expressed by the state. What is 308 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: expressed is a lot of innuendo about how Joe must 309 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: have been gay and oh, okay, yes, so this is 310 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 2: what they come up with, and they're really sort of 311 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: grasping at straws at this point. So Joe is a 312 00:17:54,480 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 2: very outgoing, effusive person with a big personality, warm, very warm, 313 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: someone who holds your hand when he talks to He's 314 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: a very warm person. And I think one of the 315 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,479 Speaker 2: saddest things about this case is that sort of the 316 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: best thing about Joe was turned against him, and this 317 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 2: was twisted in a way. You know, he couldn't just 318 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: have been this warm guy who, yes, he also liked 319 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 2: to dress well and a few other things. This meant 320 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: that he was gay. And there were all sorts of 321 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: rumors that seemed to have begun with the police investigating 322 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 2: the case, not with anyone in the community about this, 323 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: that were completely unfounded, and you know, I've always wondered 324 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 2: if maybe there was some stigma attached to the fact 325 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: that they didn't have children. In the nineteen eighties, small 326 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 2: town Texas, the insinuation that a high school principle, someone 327 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 2: who's around teenage boys all the time, is gay, it 328 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: was poisonous. It was completely toxic. And in fact, I 329 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: spoke to a good friend of both Joe Joe's an Mickey's, 330 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: who was interviewed during this time at Susan Kliney, and 331 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: she told me that when the Rangers started asking her 332 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 2: not about anything else, but just about Joe's sexuality, that 333 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 2: she became so distraught, and she said, a man's life 334 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 2: is on the line. You have to understand how dangerous 335 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: those words are that you're saying. One of the things 336 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: that Charlie Blue and Bud Saunders brought to the Texas 337 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: Rangers along there was sort of this box of stuff 338 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 2: that they said they found in the trunk, and Joe 339 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 2: never denied that flashlight was the property of his and Mickeys, 340 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: But something that was also in that box that he 341 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 2: claimed to have never seen before and had no idea 342 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 2: what it was, was the like Chippendale's calendar, which I 343 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 2: don't know if everyone remembers what that is, but sort of. 344 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 3: I'm guessing everybody here knows. Okay, so buff shirtless guys. Basically, 345 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 3: was that Joe's and he wasn't being honest? Was that planted? 346 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 2: I cannot say, but that calendar became a huge focus. 347 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 3: It could have been a gag gift to anybody. 348 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 2: So in fact, that was one of the stories that 349 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 2: came out, was that Mickey and Joe, in trying to 350 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 2: cheer up this woman who had been widowed for quite 351 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: a while ago and who had talked about how maybe 352 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: she was going to start dating again, that they had 353 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 2: bought this and they were planning to give it to her. 354 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 2: I don't know what the story is, but what I 355 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 2: found so fascinating was that there are no facts that 356 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: it hung upon. It was innuendo. And something I've seen 357 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: over and over again in wrongful conviction cases is when 358 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: there aren't the facts, what they rely on as character assassination. 359 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: And Joe was the sort of unimpeachable person, but they 360 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 2: found a way to besmirch him. They could never find 361 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 2: lovers never. Oh, and they really really really tried. I 362 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: can tell you from I finally found all the police 363 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 2: reports in the courthouse in Commanchee, Texas and spend a 364 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: day frantically going through those papers before someone told me 365 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 2: to stop. And yes, I can tell you that no 366 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 2: stone was left unturned on that front. And every male 367 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 2: friend of Joe's was asked point blank about that. And 368 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: again you have to remember just asking that question. In 369 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, rural Texas AIDS was just beginning to 370 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: be in the headlines and there was so much fear, 371 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 2: it was just completely toxic. 372 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: At this point or at any point did the community 373 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: begin to turn against him, So this is really interesting. 374 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: The community by and large really really stuck by Joe, 375 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: and in fact, I mean, he just had tremendous support 376 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 2: leading up to his trial, and people were very very 377 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: concerned about him because from what they could see, he 378 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: was both grieving for his wife and dealing with this 379 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 2: legal nightmare. Everyone thought that prosecutor was misguided and this 380 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 2: was all going to be straightened out at trial. And 381 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: something I thought was really interesting about this community and 382 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 2: people in Clifton, Texas especially then, really really trusted law enforcement. 383 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: They trusted the criminal justice system, they trusted the courts 384 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 2: to get things right, and the idea that all this 385 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: evidence would be presented and a jury would not find 386 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 2: him innocent was sort of unthinkable. What ended up happening 387 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: was this bloodstained pattern expert got on the stand and 388 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: he used all this mumbo jumbo type of lingo to 389 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 2: make himself sound like he'd had all this training and 390 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: he was incredibly knowledgeable, and he tied the flashlight to 391 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: the scene of the crime and basically said, look, there's 392 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: this is one and the same. There's no other explanation 393 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 2: for how this flashlight could have been there. He didn't 394 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 2: do so in quite as directive a way as I'm saying, 395 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: so I should make that clear. But he went far 396 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 2: beyond anything that even practitioners of bloodstained pattern analysis claim 397 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 2: they can do. He said that he could tell from 398 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 2: his analysis of the scene that the reason that there 399 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: was no blood in Joe's car was that Joe had 400 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 2: taken the time after supposedly shooting his wife. He had 401 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 2: slowly and deliberately taken the time to change his clothes 402 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 2: and his shoes before he had left the house. This 403 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 2: is one of the things that's never made sense, is, 404 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 2: of course, it's very loud when a gun goes off, 405 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 2: the houses are fairly close together there. This did occur 406 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: during a very heavy rainstorms that could have softened some 407 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: of the sound. But the idea that someone would kill 408 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 2: someone with four shots, you know, who's not like a 409 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: contract killer, and then would deliberately take the time to 410 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 2: change their clothes and shoes, I just always thought was 411 00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: very very odd. 412 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, why would he not just get into 413 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: the car and go and then change later on or 414 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: exactly so, no fingerprints on the gun or were her 415 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: fingerprints on the gun because she owned a gun. 416 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 2: There was nothing salvageable that they could use. The only 417 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 2: material from the house only fingerprints anything they either could 418 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 2: not be read or like on the headstand there were 419 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 2: both of their fingerprints appeared, which you would expect in 420 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 2: someone's bedroom. I mean, one of the things that's weird 421 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 2: about the crime scene being in your home is, of 422 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 2: course your biological material is going to be everywhere regardless. 423 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 2: But no, there was nothing usable that they could make 424 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: any sense of in that way. And unfortunately, many many 425 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 2: many years later, when DNA analysis was finally performed after 426 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 2: a lot of wrangling because the DA's office didn't want 427 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 2: to have that done again, there was just nothing that 428 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: came out that was of any help. 429 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 1: Does Joke cooperate with police when he's arrested. Is there 430 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: a light detector? Not that that's worth anything. 431 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 2: Joe had already given several statements to them. He's completely 432 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: shocked that he's arrested. I believe at that point he 433 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: did what most people do, which is, you know, he 434 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 2: got a lawyer and that was the end of that. 435 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: I don't recall him ever taking a lie detector test. 436 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: So he goes to trial. He's charged with first degree murder. 437 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: I'm assuming that's correct. Premeditated. They're saying he planned it 438 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: and obviously chose this weekend, maybe because there's a thunderstorm, 439 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: definitely because he's scheduled to be in Austin. 440 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: That the being out of town, what was his greatest 441 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: asset from the defense's point of view, that he was 442 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: out of town. The state said, well, this was all 443 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: deliberate to make it look like he couldn't possibly have 444 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 2: committed the crime, and that he had made this secret journey. 445 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 2: Everybody's constantly seeing whose car is driving down the road. 446 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 2: This is a tiny, tiny town. So again I always 447 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 2: just found it so impossible, not just that no one 448 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: in Clifton saw him, but no one at the hotel 449 00:25:58,359 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: saw him coming or going. 450 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 1: How could anyone kill her, I mean, how was that possible? 451 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: Or loud shots? I mean, I'm assuming this is as 452 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: loud as an average gun. 453 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 2: Right, So the thought is that because of the thunderstorm 454 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 2: that the shots were not heard. And the theory initially 455 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 2: in town before anyone even thought about Joe, was that 456 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: someone had parked somewhere in the area and had been 457 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 2: on foot, which I think actually makes quite a lot 458 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 2: of sense because no one on the street saw anything. 459 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 2: But obviously someone had to get into the house. That 460 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 2: again makes sense. And if it was someone local, maybe 461 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: there wasn't a car involved at all. 462 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 3: Maybe it was someone walking. Then what are they looking 463 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 3: for if they're on foot? Is it drugs? Money? Unclear? 464 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 2: Right, I mean that's prescription drugs, maybe money. Joe and 465 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 2: Mickey were extremely generous to students who didn't have anything, 466 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 2: and they had helped kids with their life much money 467 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 2: with you know, school trip money. Joe had a nice car. 468 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 2: So for the community, they I mean, they were not wealthy, 469 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 2: but they were seen as you know, doing pretty well. 470 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 2: People who might have money around the house. 471 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 3: He goes on trial, he doesn't testify. 472 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 2: I'm presuming he actually does testify and that does not 473 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: go well. And actually that was a great lesson to 474 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,959 Speaker 2: me because so many trial transcripts I've read over the years, 475 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 2: these are in wrongful conviction cases. I'll always think, like, 476 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: why didn't they just let the defendant testify? It would 477 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 2: have been so much better. And this case is actually 478 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 2: a great example of how someone can I think, be 479 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 2: an aoscent and be. 480 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 3: A terrible witness. 481 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he was cross examined for five hours after 482 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 2: he gave his testimony, and he was cross examined by 483 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: a very very skilled special prosecutor who was hired interestingly 484 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: by Charlie Blue, the brother of Mickey, the brother in 485 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,479 Speaker 2: law who we've talked about before. This was a lawyer 486 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: whose skills were above the local prosecutor. I wish everyone 487 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 2: could read this five hour cross examination because it's a 488 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 2: perfect example of how a really skilled litigator can make 489 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: anybody trip up. 490 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 3: He would go over every last. 491 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: Detail of the timeline, every last thing Joe had said. 492 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: Joe would second guess himself, Okay, did I leave it 493 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 2: seven thirty or seven thirty five? You know, all the 494 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 2: typical things we would do, and it did not go well. 495 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 2: The most critical part of the trial was that bloodstained 496 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 2: pattern analysts testimony. Back then, as was fairly typical at 497 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: the time, the defense did not put on its own 498 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: forensic expert to combat this, and that was typical. But 499 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 2: what they did was they just tried to tear apart 500 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: his testimony on cross The problem is that, like so 501 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 2: many of these bloodstained pattern analysts, Robert Thorman used this 502 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: lingo to describe the things that he was seeing. That 503 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 2: made it sound like he was doing this incredibly complicated 504 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: science unless you really really understood this or were trained, 505 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: and it was hard to make sense of what he 506 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 2: was saying. Probably it sounded very impressive to the jury, 507 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 2: and it was hard to penetrate for defense attorneys. 508 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: And intimidating to a jury too. I mean expert witnesses, 509 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,479 Speaker 1: you know now you would say you would have dueling 510 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: expert witnesses, and then what are you to do as 511 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: a jury. They can't tell each other out at some 512 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: point exactly. 513 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 2: So you know, many people were folks who had ninth 514 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: through tenth grade educations who you know, had farms and 515 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 2: did agricultural work, and I am sure that this all 516 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: sounded very impressive, as it would I should say to 517 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 2: anybody with a college or graduate degree. It's not something 518 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 2: that anyone is really familiar with. The jury decided pretty 519 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 2: quickly that Joe was guilty. One of the amazing things 520 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: about this case that I've thought about a lot. This 521 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: was a very law abiding community that put a lot 522 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 2: of stock in juries and judges and the criminal justice system. 523 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: And as much as people loved Joe and just could 524 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 2: not fathom that he had committed this crime, the fact 525 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 2: that twelve people had, to their minds, heard all the evidence, 526 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 2: which most people in town hadn't they'd been doing their jobs, 527 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 2: not attending the trial. That twelve people had heard all 528 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: the evidence and had found him guilty was very powerful. 529 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: Even among his closest friends, people really took this as 530 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 2: proof that he must have done this. There must be 531 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 2: things that we don't know, that we don't understand, that 532 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: we didn't hear. Because these twelve jurors found him guilty, just. 533 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: That much faith in the criminal justice system. Right, So 534 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: he is convicted, and I am assuming devastated. 535 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 3: Completely devastated. 536 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 2: I won't go into all this, but he had to 537 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: go through a retrial for technical legal reasons. The first 538 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: trial was in nineteen eighty seven. He's retried in nineteen 539 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 2: eighty nine. It's literally like an exact replay of the 540 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 2: first trial, except at the second trial he doesn't take 541 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 2: the stand, but they read his testimony to the jury 542 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: and it has the same effect. And Robert Thorman again 543 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 2: testifies about this bloodstained pattern analysis he did. 544 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 3: Does he hire a new team or is this the 545 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 3: same defense team? 546 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 2: Basically just a complete replay of the first trial. 547 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 3: Did I talk to you? 548 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 2: So many people in this case were dead, so no, 549 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: I could not interview anybody who defended him, unfortunately, and 550 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: then his appeals were exhausted very quickly. So really by 551 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 2: the early nineties, that was it. 552 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 3: What was the sentence? Was it life? It was life? Oka. 553 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 3: So when did you enter? So I entered in twenty eighteen. 554 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 2: And when I read all of this, I was really 555 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: interested in the fact that Robert Thorman, the bloodstained pattern analyst, 556 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: said that his only credentials for being a bloodstained pattern 557 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 2: analyst were that he had taken a forty hour class. 558 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: I did some research and I found that, particularly back then, 559 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 2: that that was pretty typical that if you were testifying 560 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 2: in a trial as a quote unquote expert in this field. 561 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 2: You likely he had only taken a forty hour introductory class. 562 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 2: In later years, there was the introductory class and then 563 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 2: sort of an advanced class. It was another forty hours. 564 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: So a two week class and you one week class. 565 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: But then if you took the advanced class, it's sure 566 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: then you could testify in would it be a capital case? 567 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 3: Capital case? 568 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: Somebody's life is in your hands essentially, if you're the 569 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: main witness. 570 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 2: Right, Robert Thorman had taken a forty hour class. He 571 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 2: had recently taken it. This was his first case he'd 572 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 2: ever handled doing this, and so when I really got 573 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 2: into well what makes this guy an expert, it was 574 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 2: not much. And he had been trained by a guy 575 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: named Tom Bevell, who's sort of the father of modern 576 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: bloodstain pattern analysis. I had read a lot about Tom 577 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: Bevely He's been involved in a number of questionable cases 578 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: that I've looked at. In addition to being an expert witness, 579 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 2: Tom Bevell also has a company that offers these classes 580 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: to law enforcement. So Bevell had taught Thornmann all of 581 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: this back in nineteen eighty five and I realized I 582 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: could take almost exactly the same class decades later, you know, 583 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 2: with a few tweaks. So I went to the very 584 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 2: next one that was being held, which was in Yukon, 585 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 2: Oklahoma at the Yukon, Oklahoma Police Department. Paid about seven 586 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 2: hundred dollars thanks to Pro Publica thanks for publican to 587 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 2: attend this class, and it was me in about twenty 588 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: law enforcement officers, and by the end of the week 589 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 2: I had the same training as the expert witness in 590 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: this capital case. It's pretty amazing. The process of taking 591 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 2: the class was so mind boggling. I really wish that 592 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 2: any defense attorney trying a case like this could have 593 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 2: this experience. Because a few things immediately were clear. One 594 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 2: was I've mentioned several times this sort of lingo that 595 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 2: these witnesses used. It was really just window dressing for 596 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 2: saying really really basic stuff, but it embroidered the testimony 597 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 2: this way that made it sound super impressive and super 598 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 2: scientific and so peeling back. That was really helpful for me. 599 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: That was the first thing. The second thing was how 600 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: incredibly superficial these classes were. I mean, these expert witnesses 601 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 2: talk on the stand about how this is based on 602 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: physics and trigonometry. This is deeply rooted in science. And 603 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 2: basically what this was was our teacher telling us to 604 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 2: put our phones on the scientific calculator mode and to 605 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: press this sign button to get this number, and that 606 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 2: then we'd derive at our answer. There was no deep 607 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: understanding of fluid dynamics or any of the things that 608 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 2: this really is supposed to be rooted in. And then 609 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 2: the third thing that was so disturbing is in two 610 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 2: thousand and nine, the National Academy of Science came out 611 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,359 Speaker 2: with a scathing report on the lack of reliability in 612 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: many scientific disciplines, one of them being bloodstained pattern analysis, 613 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 2: and really the questions or of the whole basis of 614 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 2: bloodstain pattern analysis and the claims that it was making 615 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 2: this was not addressed in the class. We were taught 616 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 2: that this was highly reliable, and the most dangerous thing 617 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 2: that we were taught to do was that based just 618 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 2: on this, like no other clues at a crime scene. 619 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 2: Think how messy a crime scene is and how rich 620 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 2: it is with information, but that just based on the 621 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 2: spatters and droplets of blood at a crime scene that 622 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 2: we with our knowledge that we had gotten in forty 623 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 2: hours that we could reconstruct crime scenes based on that. 624 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 2: So think about what a dangerous idea that is. Even 625 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 2: in the best hands, even in the most skilled hands, 626 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 2: this is a very uncertain discipline and should involve multiple 627 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 2: different things at the crime scene and all sorts of information. 628 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 2: And the idea that we would just look at some 629 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 2: spatters of blood and be able to say, well, you know, 630 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 2: the shooter was standing in this corner and fired in 631 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 2: this direction and did this. It just seemed totally absurd 632 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 2: to me. But we were asked on the last day, 633 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: we were taken to two different rooms where blood had 634 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 2: been spattered on butcher paper and we were told to 635 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 2: reconstruct the crime scenes based on that, these sort of 636 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 2: fake crime scenes. And then you know, the message at 637 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 2: the end of the class was like, go out and 638 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 2: get the bad guys. Now you've got the skills, And 639 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 2: I just thought it was terrifying. Probably the most terrifying 640 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 2: part of the week was when our teacher told us 641 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: how to deflect questions about the reliability of this and 642 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 2: how to word things in a particular way so that 643 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 2: we wouldn't be asked to talk about percentages of error 644 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 2: and things like that. 645 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 3: Is the school still in existence. It is still in existence. 646 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: You can go take this class if you have seven 647 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 2: hundred dollars and are interested. I thought it was very frightening. 648 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 2: Really at the end, I just thought, Wow, We've had 649 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of law enforcement officers across this country 650 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 2: who have taken some version of this class. It's not 651 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 2: always taught by Tom Bevell's company. There are various outfits 652 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 2: that do these classes, but it's the same curriculum, and 653 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,479 Speaker 2: that these are the quote unquote experts that we hear from. 654 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 2: And you think about the average juror you think about 655 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 2: any reporter who has the time or the resources. I'm 656 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 2: so lucky to be able to go take a week 657 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 2: long class to understand this. Most people, judges included, are 658 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 2: going to take the word of a bloodstain pattern analyst. 659 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 3: And what was Tom Bevell's reaction. 660 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 2: He was very nice in talking to me about his work, 661 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 2: and you know, expressed adamantly that this is a scientific discipline, 662 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 2: that it's been proven numerous times, and that it's been 663 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 2: a key component in many important cases. Of course, there 664 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 2: are many wrongful convictions that have been connected to this, 665 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 2: not as many as things you've already heard about, like 666 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 2: bitemark analysis, but they're a number of case including cases 667 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 2: that mister Bubble's testified in, that have been at wrongful convictions. 668 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: So in American Sherlock, I dig pretty deeply into forensics 669 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: because you know, it's about a forensic scientist, and you know, 670 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: I mean, what I learned from that two thousand and 671 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: nine report was essentially that any sort of what they 672 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: call pattern matching forensics is problematic. Having Pam coal Off 673 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: and I both looking as fingerprint experts at the same fingerprint, 674 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: and we can have completely different interpretations based on our 675 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: training because we're human, right, and forensics formed within law 676 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,720 Speaker 1: enforcement can be dubious as opposed to things like toxicology 677 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: and DNA analysis, which are still fallible, but at least 678 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: they are tested in the scientific community, and that's not 679 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: true with fitemark analysis and fingerprinting and shoe prints. 680 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 2: And that's exactly right, that pattern matching is so problematic, 681 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 2: and in fact, this isn't too far in the weeds, 682 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 2: but I thought it was so fascinating. We were asked 683 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 2: during that week of training to do exactly what you're 684 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: talking about, and to identify different types of spatters and 685 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 2: patterns and something that I noticed that week, and I 686 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 2: saw this over and over again in wrongful convictions that 687 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 2: involved bloodstained pattern analysis is the following situation. You have 688 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 2: a pattern of blood that's found on a person who 689 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 2: becomes the defendant, pattern of blood that's found on their shirt. 690 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 2: Their story is, you know, I came home or I 691 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 2: heard a sound and I found my loved one dead 692 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 2: or dying. I rushed to their care. In one case 693 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 2: in which a man's wife shot herself, the man runs 694 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 2: in and tries to render aid. Another case where a 695 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,480 Speaker 2: man came home and found his wife and two children shot. 696 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 2: This was a man who'd been at a basketball game 697 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 2: with twenty witnesses who had seen him. 698 00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 3: At the basketball game. 699 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 2: All of these people end up with blood on their 700 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,760 Speaker 2: shirt as they've tried to render aid to their loved one. 701 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 2: This exact pattern is then said by an expert at 702 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 2: trial to be high velocity or medium velocity blood spatter 703 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 2: that was caused by a gun being shot. So you 704 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 2: have the person saying I knelt over them and as 705 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 2: I did, you know, I didn't even realize I had 706 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 2: blood on me. I just was trying to help them. 707 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 2: And then you have an expert saying there's only one 708 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 2: way that this blood could possibly have gotten on the shirt, 709 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 2: and it's through a gun being fired. Now, in the 710 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 2: case of the man who came home and saw his 711 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 2: wife and two children shot, this is a man named 712 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 2: David cam tom Bevell testified for the date that the 713 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,240 Speaker 2: only way that blood could have gotten on his shirt 714 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,280 Speaker 2: was by a gun being fired. David told the story 715 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 2: that he told. As I mentioned, there were all these 716 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 2: witnesses that he had just been at a basketball game. 717 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 2: Didn't matter. He went to prison for I believed twelve years. 718 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 2: DNA testing done much later proved that actually he was 719 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 2: not the perpetrator. I won't go into all the details, 720 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 2: but it literally proved that this testimony was wrong, that 721 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 2: he was not the killer, and that his story had 722 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:12,800 Speaker 2: been accurate all along. 723 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 3: And there was prosecutorial misconduct in that case, right. That 724 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 3: was Yes, that was a very messy case. 725 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: In Joe's case, what happens once you get involved. You 726 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: write this scathing two part article on one of the 727 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: biggest magazines on the planet, New York Times Magazine, in 728 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 1: cooperation work for Republica, and it gets all of this 729 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: publicity and you're in the media. 730 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 3: He's free. 731 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 2: The story got a lot of attention. A month after 732 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 2: it came out, the Texas Forensic Science Commission completed their 733 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 2: investigation and they said that, in fact, the expert testimony 734 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 2: in his case had been incorrect, and so having that 735 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 2: come from the Texas Forensic Science Commission was very, very important. Thankfully, 736 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 2: the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles granted him parole 737 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 2: in March of this year. It was his seventh attempt 738 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:10,280 Speaker 2: to get parole. Joe was a model prisoner. This is forever. 739 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 3: How many years total did he serve? 740 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 2: So he first was incarcerated in nineteen eighty seven, he 741 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 2: was briefly out, and then back in in nineteen eighty nine, 742 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,240 Speaker 2: so about thirty one years behind bars. 743 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 3: Are there lessons learned or what did you take away 744 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 3: from the story? 745 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 2: Don't take anything at face value when someone calls themselves an. 746 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: Expert, because it will ruin lives. It can take and 747 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: take lives. 748 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 2: It can ruin lives. And I think the clearest sign 749 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 2: of a real expert is someone who talks about the 750 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 2: limitations of what they can and cannot tell you. Somebody 751 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 2: who says I can tell you X, Y and Z, 752 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 2: but my field. You know, I can't go so far 753 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 2: as to say this that sounds like a legitimate expert 754 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,879 Speaker 2: to me. Someone who comes in and says, I can 755 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,839 Speaker 2: tell by looking at these markings on the floor that 756 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 2: the perpetrator must have changed his clothes and it is. 757 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 2: That just doesn't make sense. You know, that's someone who's overreaching. 758 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 759 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked. 760 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 4: Words, firefighters go into the room, break the window and 761 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 4: shoot a hose out. So the hose basically that force 762 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 4: draws the smoke out. 763 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 3: Literally. 764 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 4: At some point, one of the firefighters climbs over what 765 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 4: he thought was Duffel bags and it turns out to 766 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 4: be three bodies. 767 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 768 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 769 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold War Media production. Alexis and 770 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Ethan is our sound designer. 771 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for US. Curtis Heath does 772 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,360 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink 773 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, 774 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked words on Instagram and Facebook 775 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 1: at tenfold more Wicked, and on Twitter at tenfold more. 776 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,240 Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, 777 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,319 Speaker 1: go to midroll dot com slash ads, and if you 778 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use 779 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,720 Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email 780 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe, and 781 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever 782 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:36,839 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.