WEBVTT - #314 Guest Host Kemba Smith with Joyce Watkins 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.800 I'm Jason Flomm. Since I began recording Wrongful Conviction back 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:08.000 in twenty sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of Xonneries, and unfortunately 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:11.920 that's just the tip of the criminal injustice iceberg. So 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:15.440 I've invited new voices to host the show, including people 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.120 who have personally experienced the horror of that system. This 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:20.760 is one of those interviews. 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.479 In the summer of nineteen eighty seven, Joyce Watkins lived 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:29.000 a good life in Nashville, Tennessee. 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:30.120 She worked a full. 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.360 Time job, went to church every Sunday, spent time with 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:37.200 her boyfriend, Charlie Dunn, and was preparing to adopt a child. 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:40.919 She had a large extended family, including a four year 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:45.040 old great niece who lived in Georgia. That summer, the 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:47.920 little girl was staying with other family members in Kentucky, 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:52.040 but things were not going well. Joyce got a call 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.200 from her sister, who was watching the child, asking if 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.440 Joyce could come and pick her up. Busy with her 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.480 own life, Joyce told their sister she couldn't care for 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:05.680 the child. Over the span of a week, Joyce's sister 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:11.640 called several more times, each call more frantic than the last. Finally, 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:14.800 Joyce agreed to come pick up the little girl and 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:18.920 take her back to Nashville. Joyce and Charlie took her home, 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:24.280 noticing almost immediately that she was acting strangely and suffering 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:29.600 from abnormal vaginal bleeding. At the hospital, it was clear 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.800 that the little girl didn't only have a vaginal injury, 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.039 but was bleeding in her brain. She received emergency care 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.200 and was placed on life support. The next day, the 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:45.400 four year old died. In an investigation that relied on 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:50.560 an erroneous autopsy report and little else. Both Joyce and 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.640 Charlie were charged with the sexual abuse and death of 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.600 the child. They were convicted and sentenced to life in prison. 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:13.600 This its wrongful conviction. My name is Kimba Smith. I'm 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:18.040 a mother, wife, author, and criminal justice advocate. For me, 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.440 the work of advocating for prison and sentencing reform is personal. 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.119 When I was a student in college, I was caught 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.200 up in a physical, abusive relationship with a drug dealer. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.440 He was killed and I was held responsible for his 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.079 drug crimes. In nineteen ninety four, at the height of 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.119 the War on Drugs, I was sentenced to twenty four 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:40.440 and a half years in prison. When I was just 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.480 twenty three years old myself. Thankfully I didn't have to 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.640 serve my full sentence. My case caught the attention of 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:51.960 the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and many other organizations, as 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:56.000 well as the host of this show, Jason Flom. They 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.200 fought for me, and I was granted executive clemency by 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.120 President Clinton. My guest today is a woman who inspires 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.799 me with not only her story, but her incredible resilience 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:11.560 and faith, Miss Joyce Watkins and her attorney, mister Jason Gishner. 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:18.919 Okay, my name is Joyce Watkins and I'm seventy four 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.720 years old, seventy five years old. I live in Franklin County. 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.400 Thanks are going real well for me now, I don't 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:27.320 have any complaints. 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.360 Hey, I'm Jason Gishner. I'm the senior legal counsel at 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.120 the Tennessee Innocence Project and our office had the great 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.960 honor of representing Joyce in court on her case. 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.120 Well, thank you so very much. And Miss Joyce, you 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.160 have such a sweet spirit and no one could look 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:49.000 at you and anticipate that you have this journey. And 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.400 I wanted to know more about what your life was 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.280 like before all of this happened. 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:59.120 I worked in a TI factory, I be at car ties, 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.880 was working doing good, ready to adopt the key, give 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.640 some kid a nice home to live in, you know, 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:14.440 and I basically just work church sports, I love football, travel, 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:19.240 I love my family. So I was just a quiet, 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:20.560 laid back person. 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:25.600 Jason, This is where I would like to transition to you. 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:30.159 How does a woman like miss Watkins go from being 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:35.359 a law abiding, sentence, church going woman, hardworking to being 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:37.280 sentenced to life in prison. 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.159 Unfortunately, Joyce's story is consistent with what we see in 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:43.599 a lot of wrongful convictions. You know, this was really 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:47.320 a perfect storm of things that went wrong to make 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:51.280 this happen. You know, Joyce and Charlie. Charlie Dunn was 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.520 Joyce's co defendant who was her boyfriend at the time, 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.080 and the two of them were both arrested in nineteen 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.400 eighty seven for a rape and murder that they didn't commit, 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.839 and neither one of them have ever been in trouble 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:07.920 for anything in their life. Joyce is in Madison and 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.880 she starts to get phone calls from a family member 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:13.520 that's in Kentucky who's taking care of her great niece, 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.080 who's a four year old girl and she's asking Joyce, 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.400 can you come pick the little girl up? Well, Joyce 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:22.400 has a full time job. As she told you, she 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.599 was in the process of adopting a child, but didn't 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:26.479 have any children of her own at that point, so 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:29.760 she doesn't have daycare. She doesn't have anybody who can 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.120 watch a child during the day, so she's not able 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:36.039 to pick her great niece up. So Joyce says, there's 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.240 nothing I can do about it. But then there's a 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.280 week that comes along and the calls start to get 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:45.120 more and more frantic, and Joyce realizes that something is wrong, 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.359 or at least concerning. I should go pick the little 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.480 girl up and find out what's the situation here. So 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.320 on a Friday evening, Joyce had gotten out of work 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.159 that day, she drives out to Kentucky to pick the 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:59.839 little girl up. Charlie gets caught up in this whole 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:01.960 thing for no other reason than because he didn't want 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:03.960 his girlfriend to have to drive in the dark, so 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.200 he drives along with Joyce to go pick her up 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.000 in Kentucky. They picked the little girl up, they head 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:14.520 back to Nashville, and pretty quickly when they arrive in Nashville, 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.239 Joyce realizes something is wrong. She notices that the little 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:23.120 girl has some vaginal bleeding and she's just not acting right. 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.479 So Joyce does what anybody would do. At this point, 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.000 it's the middle of the night. By the time they 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.320 get back to Nashville, it's after midnight. Joyce calls up 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.880 the little girl's mom in Georgia. She had been staying 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.120 with this family member in Kentucky. This was nothing out 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.680 of the ordinary, sort of something that this family did. 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.080 You know, nieces and nephews would go stay for periods 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.080 of time with family members. So Joyce calls up the 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:50.839 family member, the child's mother, who is Joyce's niece also 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:54.640 because this was her great niece, and says, hey, something's 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.120 wrong with your daughter. I'm noticing these medical issues. What 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.640 should I do about it? So mom says, don't do 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.880 anything about it. I'm going to come to Nashville and 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.440 we'll get this sorted out. So everybody goes to bed, 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:11.080 and then they wake up the next morning and the 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.280 person hasn't arrived from Georgia yet, and Joyce realizes that 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:17.720 the situation has gotten worse. The little girl still bleeding 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:22.720 and she's not acting right, something's just off. So Joyce says, 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:24.960 I can't wait anymore. I'm going to bring her to 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.320 get some medical care. So Joyce takes her to the hospital, 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:29.600 which is, you know, what you'd want somebody to do 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.280 in that situation. Unfortunately, by the time they get to 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.840 the hospital, the situation is deteriorating and the little girl 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.600 is crashing and they realize that not only does she 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:44.720 have a vaginal injury, but she's got a subdural hematoma, 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.800 she's got a head injury, and her you know, her 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:50.560 brain is bleeding, and that becomes the urgent issue that 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.320 they do everything they can to try and figure out 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:56.640 why she has this this hemorrhaging in her brain and 0:07:56.680 --> 0:07:59.320 if they can do anything about it, and tragically, the 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.040 little girl dies the next day. 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:05.800 Basically, you have this, you know, two month period where 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.560 Beebee was at a relative's house and then with her 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:14.320 and mister Dunn with them for nine hours, and they 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.800 chose to focus in on those nine hours when there 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.320 was documentation that there was stuff that had been going 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.680 on previously as well. So can you give us some 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.120 more background information to this case. 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.360 So initially what happens is that everybody is focused on 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.040 what was going on in Kentucky. This little girl was 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:35.760 with Joyce and Charlie for nine hours, and the majority 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:37.560 of that time she was sleeping, and part of that 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.880 time she was driving from Kentucky to Nashville. Nobody really 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:44.640 thinks anything strange happened in Nashville. After all, Joyce is 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.240 the person that brought this child in for medical care 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.280 and called her mother as soon as she knew something 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:53.080 was wrong. So nobody's even looking at these people, you know, 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.880 they're sort of focusing on what was going on in Kentucky, 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.920 and there had been some strange circumstances there. There had 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.559 been an investigation from the Family Services department out there. 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:08.720 But then things change after the autopsy is conducted. There's 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:12.640 an autopsy that is conducted by the assistant medical examiner 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:17.400 in Nashville who tells the prosecutor that I know from 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.800 looking at the brain slides in this autopsy that the 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.920 head trauma to this little girl had to have happened 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.000 within this window of time that she was with Joyce 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.640 and Charlie. And the reason she says she knows that 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.320 is because there was a particular type of cell that 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:35.439 she was looking for a healing cell which is called 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:39.520 a histiocyte, and she says, because I didn't see this 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.920 cell in the brain slide, that tells me the window 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.959 of time when this head injury could have happened was 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:48.960 when this nine hour window when the little girl was 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.040 with Joyce and Charlie missus. 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:55.080 Joyce, I wanted to ask you because I mean, you know, 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.800 I'm formally incarcerated and I actually you know, turned my 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.680 self in, but just this was such a nightmare for you, 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:08.120 and to know that you were preparing to adopt the 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:13.040 child and to be faced with these accusations. How did 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.880 you feel when you were actually arrested and going through 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.480 this process knowing that you were innocent. 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:24.720 Well, I got medical attention for her because I thought 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:29.160 that was the right thing to do. So when I 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:33.679 got accused of that, you know, I knew it wasn't true. 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:39.200 So it wasn't a time to start stressing over something 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:43.400 that you didn't do. You try to find ways to 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:47.360 prove that you didn't do it. You just have to 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:51.120 be positive thinking about everything and not just fall apart. 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:56.679 So I didn't give up, you know, point fingers of 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.440 saying anything, lying on people. I just just didn't stress 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.280 all that, and it was very hard to except. 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:08.280 So, Jason, if you don't mind going into initially with troal, 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.920 what was miss Watkin's defense, what was presented by her attorney. 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.559 I mean, the defense was essentially, these people didn't do it. 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.199 You know, they were interviewed, they said they didn't do it, 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:20.760 and there was you know, nothing about them or their 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.360 character that should make anyone believe that they did it, 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:28.360 which we're all appropriate things to say. The problem is 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:32.920 that the jury was confronted with a medical opinion from 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.720 an expert on a subject that they don't know anything about, 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:38.120 that none of us would know anything about if we weren't, 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.920 you know, didn't go to medical school ourselves, and nobody 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.000 told them that that opinion was wrong. The big revelation 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:49.080 that doesn't come out until years later is that the 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.319 type of cell that the medical examiner was looking for 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.400 in these brain slides is not a cell that ever 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.760 goes to that part of the brain. That's not a thing. 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:02.040 It doesn't ever happen. Trying to date this injury by 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.720 looking for this cell is an impossibility. And the other 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.360 thing that the medical examiner failed to take into account, 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.000 which didn't come out until twenty twenty one when we 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:15.640 started having these exoneration hearings, was that the cells that 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:19.679 were evident in the vaginal slides were cells called macrophages 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.560 that showed that this is an injury that had happened 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.680 in the days prior, well before this child was ever 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:30.440 with Joyce or Charlie. So there was no medical evidence 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:34.559 whatsoever connecting the head injury to this nine hour window. 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:39.080 And there was definitive medical evidence that whatever happened in 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.920 terms of any type of vaginal injury happened well before 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.679 the child was with these two people. And you know, 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.120 if you put yourself in a jurors shoes in that situation, 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:49.679 what are you going to do. I have a lot 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:51.640 of blame that I throw around in this case, but 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:54.640 it's not really at the jury, because I don't know 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.840 what the jury could have done otherwise, because nobody gave 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.319 them the information they needed to hear. If they hear 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.880 from a doctor saying I know these people did it 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:06.000 and medically this is why, and that's not contested, then 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:10.280 they're stuck. And that's that's effectively what happened. And the 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.920 other interesting thing that happened during the trial, which you know, 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.200 Joyce can talk about if you'd like her to. Is 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.320 that the prosecution tried to offer Joyce a deal in 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.319 the middle of the trial. You know, they offered her, 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.280 effectively a one year sentence to flip on Charlie, to 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:27.920 say that he raped and murdered this little girl. And 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.400 Joyce flat out turned them down in the middle of 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.760 the trial and walked right back in the courtroom and 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.320 you know, and waited for the jury to give her 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.920 a life sentence. And Charlie's family never knew that. They 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:43.560 learned about that at the exoneration hearing in December of 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.640 twenty twenty one. So you know, these kids grew up 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:51.240 thinking that their dad was a murderer and thinking that 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:53.720 he had gotten brought into this thing because he had 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.800 gone along for a ride with Joyce, and they never 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.679 knew that. You know, Joyce effectively took a life sentence 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.760 because she was unwilling to lie on Charlie and say 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:06.000 he did something he didn't do. 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.360 Joyce, So wow, that miss Joyce. That is Can you 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.600 share more with us about that if you don't mind, 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.720 I mean, because that is definitely again commendable in this 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.080 day and age. If you know a young person goes 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.520 through the system and is bought with that type of 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:30.600 opportunity to free themselves. You know, it's in the culture 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.320 just to you know, take that. But I know you 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:37.760 knew your innocence. Can you explain to us that process 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:38.920 and what you were thinking. 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.520 I just didn't feel like I need to lie and 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.600 send that man to prison for something that I know 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.840 he didn't do. So you know, when I was off 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:52.280 of the year to say that he did it, I'd say, well, 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.840 I'm not going to do that, and I went back 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:58.040 in the courtroom. You know, you don't do things just 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.520 save yourself, but you're hurt that person and you're hurting 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:05.880 their family. So I just thought I did the right 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.280 thing about not just lying on the man because he 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:09.280 hadn't done anything. 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:17.160 It's just interesting how the government will create opportunities like that. 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.200 You know, with my situation, I was pregnant and they 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.680 fed me information that they wanted me to say and 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.000 thought that I would say what they wanted to say 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:30.880 in order to save myself. And what baffles me with 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.840 your situation again is you know they were targeting you, 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.200 then they wanted you to cooperate to flip on mister Dunn, 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.800 And it just seems evident throughout this that they weren't 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:48.840 even interested in finding out and getting justice for the victim. 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.240 How do you feel about that? As far as whoever 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:57.480 the prosecutor was, whoever those parties, they were just wanting 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:00.520 to get a conviction by any means necessary, you know, 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:05.560 instead of doing their jobs and trying to seek and 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.160 find justice, using you guys escape ghoasts because they needed 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.040 an arrest and to block somebody up. How do you 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:13.880 feel about that? 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.440 It was wrong what they did. You don't hate anybody 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:21.960 for anything, but you know that what they did was wrong, 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.520 and there were things that they could have done and 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.240 should have done to find out the truth. But since 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.880 they had focused on us, that is all they wanted. 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.040 They just wanted the conviction to close the case. They 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.160 didn't care if you did it or not. They didn't 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.360 care if they had the right person the wrong person. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.200 They just wanted a conviction, and that's what they thought 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.520 they was gonna get. But I just wasn't gonna fall 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:46.360 into that trap. 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:04.639 As you speak about, you know, the conviction. Once both 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:10.840 sides finished speaking and the guilty verdict was handed down, 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.399 what were your thoughts at that moment. 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.320 Oh, I was let down. I was heartbroken over it, 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:19.480 you know, because I knew I wasn't gonna get a 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.960 chance to spend much more time with my family. And 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:28.399 it just was a hurting situation. But as the years 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.760 went through, you know, my family tried to get me out, 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.320 but then my family, my siblings started passing away. So 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.080 I lost four brothers and a sister, you know, seven 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.080 or eight aunties and office and stuff. But I didn't 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.120 give up. I just kept hoping and praying and trusting. 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.359 But it was a hurting situation. But you know, like 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.600 I say, I don't flip or get stressed over something 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.800 because that doesn't help. That doesn't help solve the problem anyway. 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:03.199 Your resilience, Miss Joyce, I mean you tap in with 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:08.520 the ancestors and all of what our ancestors went through 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:13.040 to be where we are today, that resilience just oozes 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:17.080 out of you. Because your positivity through all of this 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:22.439 is remarkable and I don't see how you have such peace. 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:26.400 But if you could, can you tell us about the 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:31.360 parole process and when were you eligible for parole? Let 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.159 me just start there after how much time were you 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.840 actually eligible to go up for parole what. 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.320 The law said. I was to do seventeen point five 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:46.080 under the old law, but I did the twenty seven years. 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:51.280 But I had went up for parole two or three 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:55.760 times and they turned me down. So at the Charlie 0:18:55.760 --> 0:19:01.080 Pass I made parole. The little girl's mother, my nieces 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:04.040 and my sister, they came to the parole board and 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.359 told them she don't know what happened. She needs a 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.800 lot of goal, you know, she don't know. They don't 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:13.720 know what happened, so I might parole. But being on 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.719 parole wasn't a nice thing to be, not a Tennessee. 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.639 I'm kem before it's worth. I'm shocked and have always 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:23.520 been shocked that they parole Joyce at all. I mean, 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:27.159 as you know, most of the time, if you're going 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.600 to get paroled, you've got to go in there and say, yeah, 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:31.480 I did it, I'm sorry, and let me prove to 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.520 you that I'm sorry. Joyce every time she has ever 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.480 been asked about this by anybody, said I didn't do this. 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:40.240 You've got somebody in prison who's innocent. You know, a 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.320 lot of times, unfortunately, people who are wrongfully convicted who 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.800 maintain their innocence don't parole out because they're never going 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:49.800 to be in a position where they admitted that they 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.000 committed a crime and that they're sorry they committed a 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.119 crime because they didn't commit. 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:57.800 A crime, right, And that is an excellent point. And 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.159 you're right, that is what they expect to say, that 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.840 you did it and that you thrush your remorse. And 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.920 so it was meant to be to happen that way. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.720 But how did it feel, Joyce walking out of prison? 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.080 And what were some of the conditions of parole once 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:14.800 you were released. 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.520 I had certain places I could go, such streets I 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:22.760 could go on, you know, certain peoples I could talk to. 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.159 They were come into your house when they got ready 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:26.800 tear it up. 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:30.920 Whatever hold on, Miss Joyce. You said they would come 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:32.720 in your house and tear it up. 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:38.399 They would go through everything you had, everything, every piece 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:39.200 of everything. 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:43.440 Joyce, explain to Kimba. Because you weren't just on parole 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.080 because of the rape conviction. You were also on the 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:51.480 sex offender Registry for life. So that's like parole times 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:52.040 one thousand. 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:56.280 Sure is. I had certain streets I could go to, 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:00.160 certain peoples I could talk to, certain places I could go. 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.040 I had to be at home six o'clock. I had 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.800 to get permission to go to church. Such stuff I 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.200 could have in the house, No Internet, they would check 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:14.040 myself phone. 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:16.720 Couldn't live within a thousand feet of a school or 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:20.400 a daycare facility, not even close. 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:25.880 Not even close to a school or daycare. I couldn't 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:30.679 pass by during school hours. If kids was walking the 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:32.960 streets and I was on the post, I had to 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:33.840 go in till they leave. 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:40.040 And again it speaks to your your perspective and resilience 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.520 through it, because I know there are some people that 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:47.359 are on sexophreond or registries where that could be quite 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.639 challenging and depending on you know, who's supervising them, it 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.919 could be the least little thing and they could be back, 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:58.960 you know, in prison. So I appreciate you sharing what 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:04.439 that was like. Jason, can you tell the audience how 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:10.000 the Innocence Project of Tennessee Nashville became involved in Miss 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:10.879 Joyce's case. 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:15.240 So most people they either write us letters from prison, 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:17.760 or their families reach out to us, or sometimes their 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:22.080 former lawyers reach out to us. Joyce paroled in twenty 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:26.720 and fifteen, and our organization started in Tennessee in twenty 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:32.000 nineteen and Joyce just showed up. We don't get a 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:36.399 lot of walkins over at the Tennessee Innocence Project, but 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:41.720 Joyce walked in and basically said, all right, I was 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:45.600 wrongfully convicted. I'm still on the sex offender registry for 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:48.400 a rape that I didn't commit. Y'all need to hear 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:52.000 my story, and y'all need to help. And you know 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:54.320 you've probably figured out by now that you know Joyce 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:58.480 is a force of nature and there was no saying 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:02.359 no to Joyce when she did that. So she she 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:05.120 came in, she told the story to everybody, and then, 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:08.960 you know, Joyce and I eventually started working together. And 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.000 you know, when I first met with Joyce, there was 0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:15.600 another person in the office with me who was working here, 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:18.040 and she kind of laid it all out and then 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:20.480 I kicked that person out and I closed the door. 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:24.000 I said, all right, Joyce, like, here's the deal. If 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:26.199 we're going to do this, you need to tell me 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:28.720 your story, like legit. I need to believe you. I 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:31.480 want to know the real deal. And she didn't hesitate. 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:34.400 She's like, I did not do this. I am one 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:36.719 hundred percent innocent. Y'all need to figure out how you're 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:39.000 going to fix it. But I did not do this. 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:41.840