Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flomm. Since I began recording Wrongful Conviction back
Speaker 1: in two thousand sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of exonorees, and
Speaker 1: unfortunately that's just the tip of the criminal injustice iceberg.
Speaker 1: So I've invited new voices to host the show, including
Speaker 1: people who have personally experienced the horror of that system.
Speaker 1: This is one of those interviews. In the summer of
Speaker 1: n Joyce Watkins lived a good life in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 1: She worked a full time job, went to church every Sunday,
Speaker 1: spent time with her boyfriend Charlie Dunn, and was preparing
Speaker 1: to adopt a child. She had a large extended family,
Speaker 1: including a four year old great niece who lived in Georgia.
Speaker 1: That summer, the little girl was staying with other family
Speaker 1: members in Kentucky, but things were not going well. Joyce
Speaker 1: got a call from her sister, who was watching the child,
Speaker 1: asking if Joyce could come and pick her up. Busy
Speaker 1: with her own life, Joyce told her sister she couldn't
Speaker 1: care for the child. Over the span of a week,
Speaker 1: Joyce's sister called several more times, each call more frantic
Speaker 1: than the last. Finally, Joyce agreed to come pick up
Speaker 1: the little girl and take her back to Nashville. Joyce
Speaker 1: and Charlie took her home, noticing almost immediately that she
Speaker 1: was acting strangely and suffering from abnormal vaginal bleeding. At
Speaker 1: the hospital, it was clear that the little girl didn't
Speaker 1: only have a vaginal injury, but was bleeding in her brain.
Speaker 1: She received emergency care and was placed on life support.
Speaker 1: The next day, the four year old died. In an
Speaker 1: investigation that relied on an erroneous autopsy report and little else.
Speaker 1: Both Joyce and Charlie were charged with the sexual abuse
Speaker 1: and death of the child. They were convicted and sentenced
Speaker 1: to life in prison. This it's wrongful conviction. My name
Speaker 1: is Kimba Smith. I'm a mother, wife, author, and criminal
Speaker 1: justice advocate. For me, the work of advocating for prison
Speaker 1: and sentencing reform is personal. When I was a student
Speaker 1: in college, I was caught up in a physical, abusive
Speaker 1: relationship with the drug dealer. He was killed and I
Speaker 1: was held responsible for his drug crimes at the height
Speaker 1: of the War on drugs. I was sentenced to twenty
Speaker 1: four and a half years in prison when I was
Speaker 1: just twenty three years old. Myself. Thankfully I didn't have
Speaker 1: to serve my full sentence. My case caught the attention
Speaker 1: of the n double a CP Legal Defense Fund and
Speaker 1: many other organizations, as well as the host of this show,
Speaker 1: Jason Flong. They fought for me and I was granted
Speaker 1: executive clemency by President Clinton. My guest today is a
Speaker 1: woman who inspires me with not only her story, but
Speaker 1: her incredible resilience and faith, Miss Joyce Watkins and her attorney,
Speaker 1: Mr Jason Gischner. Okay, my name is Joyce Watkins and
Speaker 1: I'm seven to four years old, seven to five years old,
Speaker 1: live in Franklin County. Thanks are going real well for
Speaker 1: me now, I don't have any complaints. Hey, I'm Jason Gishner.
Speaker 1: I'm the senior legal counsel of the Tennessee Innocence Project.
Speaker 1: In our office had the great honor of representing Joyce
Speaker 1: in court on her case. Well, thank you so very much.
Speaker 1: And Miss Joyce, you have such a sweet spirit and
Speaker 1: no one could look at you and anticipate that you
Speaker 1: have this journey. And I wanted to know more about
Speaker 1: what your life was like before all of this happened. Uh.
Speaker 1: I worked on a tai factory, a bee a cortis.
Speaker 1: I was working, doing good, ready to adopt a kid,
Speaker 1: give some key a nice hunk to live in, you know,
Speaker 1: and basically just work, church, sports a little football, travel
Speaker 1: a lot my family. So I was just a quiet,
Speaker 1: laid back person. Jason, This is where I would like
Speaker 1: to transition to you. How does a woman like miss
Speaker 1: Watkins go from being a law abouty centers, churchgoing woman,
Speaker 1: hard working to being sentenced to life in prison. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: Joyce's story is consistent with what we see in a
Speaker 1: lot of wrongful convictions. You know, this was really a
Speaker 1: perfect storm of things that went wrong to make this happen. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, Joyce and Charlie. Charlie Dunn was Joyce's co
Speaker 1: defendant who was her boyfriend at the time, and the
Speaker 1: two of them were both arrested in for a rape
Speaker 1: and murder that they didn't commit. And um, neither one
Speaker 1: of them have ever been of trouble for anything in
Speaker 1: their life. Joyce is uh in Madison and she starts
Speaker 1: to get phone calls from a family member that's in
Speaker 1: Kentucky who's taking care of her great niece who's a
Speaker 1: four year old girl. And she's asking Joyce, can you
Speaker 1: come pick the little girl up? Well, Joyce has a
Speaker 1: full time job. As she told you, she was at
Speaker 1: the process of adopting a child, but didn't have any
Speaker 1: children of her own at that point, so she doesn't
Speaker 1: have daycare. She doesn't have anybody who can watch a
Speaker 1: child during the day, so she's not able to pick
Speaker 1: her great niece up. So Joyce says, there's nothing I
Speaker 1: can do about it. But then there's a week that
Speaker 1: comes along and the calls start to get more and
Speaker 1: more frantic, and Joyce realizes that something is wrong um
Speaker 1: or at least concerning. I should go pick the little
Speaker 1: girl up and find out what's the situation here. So
Speaker 1: on a Friday evening, Joyce had gotten out of work
Speaker 1: that day, she drives out to Kentucky to pick the
Speaker 1: little girl up. Charlie gets caught up in this whole
Speaker 1: thing for no other reason than because he didn't want
Speaker 1: his girlfriend have to drive in the dark, so he
Speaker 1: drives along with Joyce to go pick her up. In Kentucky.
Speaker 1: They picked the little girl up, they head back to Nashville,
Speaker 1: and pretty quickly when they arrive in Nashville, Joyce realizes
Speaker 1: something is wrong. She notices that the little girl has
Speaker 1: some vaginal bleeding and she's just not acting right. So
Speaker 1: Joyce does what anybody would do. At this point, it's
Speaker 1: the middle of the night. By the time they get
Speaker 1: back to Nashville, it's after midnight. Joyce calls up the
Speaker 1: little girl's mom in Georgia. Um, she had been staying
Speaker 1: with this family member in Kentucky. This was nothing out
Speaker 1: of the ordinary, sort of something that this family did.
Speaker 1: You know, nieces and nephews would go stay for periods
Speaker 1: of time with family members. So Joyce calls up the
Speaker 1: family member, the child's mother, who is Joyce's niece also
Speaker 1: because this was her great niece, and says, hey, something's
Speaker 1: wrong with your daughter. I'm noticing these medical issues. What
Speaker 1: should I do about it? So mom says, don't do
Speaker 1: anything about it. I'm gonna come to Nashville and we'll
Speaker 1: get this sorted out. So everybody goes to bed, and
Speaker 1: then they wake up the next morning and the person
Speaker 1: hasn't arrived from Georgia yet, and Joyce realizes that the
Speaker 1: situation has gotten worse. The little girl still bleeding and
Speaker 1: she's not acting right. Something's just off. So Joyce says,
Speaker 1: I can't wait anymore. I'm going to bring her to
Speaker 1: get some medical care. So Joyce takes her to the hospital,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, what you'd want somebody to do
Speaker 1: in that situation. Unfortunately, by the time they get to
Speaker 1: the hospital, the situation is deteriorating and the little girl
Speaker 1: is crashing and they realize that not only does she
Speaker 1: have a vaginal injury, but she's got a subdural hematoma,
Speaker 1: she's got a head injury, and her you know, her
Speaker 1: brain is bleeding and that becomes the urgent issue that
Speaker 1: they do everything they can to try and figure out
Speaker 1: why she has this um this hemorrhaging in her brain
Speaker 1: and if they can do anything about it, and tragically,
Speaker 1: the little girl eyes the next day. Basically, you have
Speaker 1: this you know, two month period where Bbe was at
Speaker 1: a relative's house and then with her and Mr Dunne
Speaker 1: with them for nine hours, and they chose to focus
Speaker 1: in on those nine hours when there was documentation that
Speaker 1: there was stuff that had been going on previously as well.
Speaker 1: So can you give us some more background information to
Speaker 1: this case. So initially what happens is that everybody is
Speaker 1: focused on what was going on in Kentucky. This little
Speaker 1: girl was with Joyce and Charlie for nine hours, and
Speaker 1: the majority of that time she was sleeping, and part
Speaker 1: of that time she was driving from Kentucky to Nashville.
Speaker 1: Nobody really thinks anything strange happened in Nashville. After all,
Speaker 1: Joyce is the person that brought this child into medical
Speaker 1: care and called her mother as soon as she knew
Speaker 1: something was wrong. So nobody's even looking at these people,
Speaker 1: you know, they're they're sort of focusing on what was
Speaker 1: going on in Kentucky, and there had been some strange
Speaker 1: circumstances there. Uh there there had been an investigation from
Speaker 1: the Family Services department out there. But then things change
Speaker 1: after the autopsy is conducted. Um, there's an autopsy that
Speaker 1: is conducted by the assistant medical examiner in Nashville who
Speaker 1: tells the prosecutor that I know from looking at the
Speaker 1: brain slides in this autopsy that the head trauma to
Speaker 1: this little girl had to have happened within this window
Speaker 1: of time that she was with Joyce and Charlie. And
Speaker 1: the reason she says she knows that is because there
Speaker 1: was a particular type of cell that she was looking for,
Speaker 1: a healing cell. Which is called a HISTEO site, and
Speaker 1: she says, because I didn't see this cell in the
Speaker 1: brain slide that tells me the window of time when
Speaker 1: this head injury could have happened was when this nine
Speaker 1: hour window when the little girl was with Joyce and
Speaker 1: Charlie ms Joyce. I wanted to ask you because I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm formally incarcerated and actually you know, turned
Speaker 1: my self and but just this was such a nightmare
Speaker 1: for you, and to know that you were preparing to
Speaker 1: adopt a child and to be faced with these accusations.
Speaker 1: How did you feel when you were actually arrested and
Speaker 1: going through this this process knowing that you were innocent. Well,
Speaker 1: I got medical TechEd for her because I thought that
Speaker 1: was the right thing to do. So when I got
Speaker 1: accused of that, you know, I knew it wasn't true.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't a time to start stressing over something
Speaker 1: that you didn't do. Uh, you try to find ways
Speaker 1: to prove that you didn't do it. You just have
Speaker 1: to be positive thinking about everything and not just fall apart.
Speaker 1: So I didn't give up, you know, uh, point fingers
Speaker 1: of saying that a thing lying on people, I just
Speaker 1: just didn't stress all that and it was very hot.
Speaker 1: It sell. So, Jason, if you don't mind going into
Speaker 1: initially with trial, what was miss watkins defense what was
Speaker 1: presented by her attorney. I mean the defense was essentially,
Speaker 1: these people didn't do it. You know, they were interviewed,
Speaker 1: they said they didn't do it, and there was you know,
Speaker 1: nothing about them or their character that should make anyone
Speaker 1: believe that they did it, which which was we're all
Speaker 1: appropriate things to say. The problem is that the jury
Speaker 1: was confronted with a medical opinion from an expert on
Speaker 1: a subject that they don't know anything about, that none
Speaker 1: of us would know anything about if we weren't you know,
Speaker 1: didn't go to medical school ourselves, and nobody told them
Speaker 1: that opinion was wrong. The big revelation that doesn't come
Speaker 1: out until years later is that the type of cell
Speaker 1: that the medical examiner was looking for in these brain
Speaker 1: slides is not a cell that ever goes to that
Speaker 1: part of the brain. That's not a thing. It doesn't
Speaker 1: ever happen. Trying to date this injury by looking for
Speaker 1: this cell is an impossibility. And the other thing that
Speaker 1: the medical examiner failed to take into account, which didn't
Speaker 1: come out until when we started having these exoneration hearings.
Speaker 1: Was that the cells that were evident in the vaginal
Speaker 1: slides were cells called macrophages that showed that this is
Speaker 1: an injury that had happened in the days prior, well
Speaker 1: before this child was ever with Joyce or Charlie. So
Speaker 1: there was no medical evidence whatsoever connecting the head injury
Speaker 1: to this nine hour window. And there was definitive medical
Speaker 1: evidence that whatever happened in terms of any type of
Speaker 1: vaginal injury happened well before the child was with these
Speaker 1: two people. And you know, if you put yourself in
Speaker 1: a jury shoes in that situation, what are you gonna do.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of blame that I throw around
Speaker 1: in this case, but it's not really at the jury
Speaker 1: because I don't know what the jury could have done otherwise,
Speaker 1: because nobody gave them the information they needed to hear.
Speaker 1: If they hear from a doctor saying I know these
Speaker 1: people did it and medically this is why, and that's
Speaker 1: not contested, then they're stuck. And that's that's effectively what happened.
Speaker 1: And the other interesting thing that happened during the trial,
Speaker 1: which you know Joyce can talk about if you'd like
Speaker 1: her to is that the prosecution tried to offer Joyce
Speaker 1: a deal in the middle of the trial. You know,
Speaker 1: they offered her, effectively a one year sentence to flip
Speaker 1: on Charlie, to say that he raped and murdered this
Speaker 1: little girl. And and Joyce flat out turned them down
Speaker 1: in the middle of the trial and walked right back
Speaker 1: in the courtroom and you know, and waited for the
Speaker 1: jury to give her a life sentence. And and Charlie's
Speaker 1: family never knew that. They learned about that at the
Speaker 1: exoneration hearing in December of one. So you know, these
Speaker 1: kids grew up thinking that their dad was a murderer
Speaker 1: and and thinking that that he had gotten brought into
Speaker 1: this thing because he had gone along for a ride
Speaker 1: with Joyce. And they never knew that. You know, Joyce
Speaker 1: effectively took a life sentence because she was unwilling to
Speaker 1: lie on Charlie and say he did something he didn't do. Joyce.
Speaker 1: So wow, that Ms Joyce. That is can you share
Speaker 1: more with us about that if you don't mind, I mean,
Speaker 1: because that is definitely again commendable in this day and age.
Speaker 1: If you know, a young person goes through the system
Speaker 1: and it's bought with that type of opportunity to free themselves.
Speaker 1: You know, it's in the culture just to you know,
Speaker 1: take that. But I know you knew your innocence. Can
Speaker 1: you explain to us that process and what you were thinking.
Speaker 1: I just didn't feel like I need to lie and
Speaker 1: send that man to prison for something that I know
Speaker 1: he didn't do. So you know, when I was off
Speaker 1: of the year to say that he did it, I'd say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do that, and I went back in
Speaker 1: the courtroom. You know, you don't do things just save yourself,
Speaker 1: but you're heard that person and you're hurting their feminine
Speaker 1: So I just thought I did the right thing by
Speaker 1: not just lying on the man because he hadn't done anything.
Speaker 1: It's just interesting how the government well create opportunities like that.
Speaker 1: You know, with my situation, I was pregnant and they
Speaker 1: fed me information that they wanted me to say and
Speaker 1: thought that I would say what they wanted to say
Speaker 1: in order to save myself. And what baffles me with
Speaker 1: your situation again is you know they were targeting you,
Speaker 1: then they wanted you to cooperate to flip on Mr Dunn,
Speaker 1: And it just seems evident throughout this that they weren't
Speaker 1: even interested in finding out and getting justice for the victim.
Speaker 1: How do you feel about that? As far as whoever
Speaker 1: the prosecutor was, whoever those parties, they were just wanting
Speaker 1: to get a conviction by any means necessary, you know,
Speaker 1: instead of doing their jobs and trying to seek and
Speaker 1: find justice, using you guys escapegoats because they needed and
Speaker 1: arrest and to block somebody up. How do you feel
Speaker 1: about that? It was wrong what they did. You don't
Speaker 1: hate anybody for anything, but you know that what they
Speaker 1: did was wrong, and there were things that they could
Speaker 1: have done and should have done to find not the truth.
Speaker 1: But since they had focused on us, that is all
Speaker 1: they wanted. They just wanted to conviction to close the case.
Speaker 1: They didn't care if you did it or not. They
Speaker 1: didn't care if they had the right person the wrong person.
Speaker 1: They just wanted to conviction, and that's what they thought
Speaker 1: they was gonna get. But I just wasn't going on
Speaker 1: fall into that trap. As you speak about, you know,
Speaker 1: the conviction. Once both sides finished speaking and the guilty
Speaker 1: verdict was handing handed down, what what were your thoughts
Speaker 1: at that moment? Oh, I was let down. I was
Speaker 1: hot broken over it, you know, because I knew I
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna get a chance to spend much more time
Speaker 1: with my family, and it just was a hurting situation.
Speaker 1: But as the years went through, you know, my family
Speaker 1: tried to get me out, but then my faminous, my
Speaker 1: civilings thought passing away. So I lost four brothers that
Speaker 1: are sister you know, seven eight actes and office and stuff.
Speaker 1: But I didn't give up. I just kept hoping and
Speaker 1: praying and trusted. But it was a hurting situation. But
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, I don't flip or get
Speaker 1: stressed over something because that doesn't help. That doesn't help
Speaker 1: solving problem anyway. Your resilience, Miss Joyce, I mean you
Speaker 1: tap in with the ancestors and all of what our
Speaker 1: ancestors went through to be where we are today, that
Speaker 1: resilience just oozes out of you. Because your positivity through
Speaker 1: all of this is remarkable and I don't see how
Speaker 1: you have such peace. But if you could, can you
Speaker 1: tell us about the parole process and when were you
Speaker 1: eligible for parole? Let me just start there after after
Speaker 1: how much time were you actually eligible to go up
Speaker 1: for parole? What the law said I was to do
Speaker 1: seventy point five under the old law, but I did
Speaker 1: the twenty seven years. But I had went up for
Speaker 1: parole two or three times and they turned me down.
Speaker 1: So at the Charlie Pass, I made parole. The little girl, mother,
Speaker 1: my nieces and my sister. They came to the parole
Speaker 1: board and told him she don't know what happened. You
Speaker 1: just need a lot of goal. You know, she don't know.
Speaker 1: They don't. She don't They don't know what happened. So
Speaker 1: I my parole. But being a parole wasn't a nice
Speaker 1: thing to be, not a typnescy. I'm Kimba for what
Speaker 1: it's worth. I'm shocked and have always been shocked that
Speaker 1: that they paroled Joyce at all. I mean, as you know,
Speaker 1: most of the time, if you're gonna get paroles, you've
Speaker 1: got to go in there and say, yeah, I did it,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and let me prove to you that I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: Joyce every time she's ever been asked about this by anybody,
Speaker 1: said I didn't do this. You've got somebody in prison
Speaker 1: who's innocent. You know, a lot of times, unfortunately, people
Speaker 1: who are wrongfully convicted who maintained their innocence. Uh, don't
Speaker 1: parole out because they're never going to be in a
Speaker 1: position where they admitted that they committed a crime and
Speaker 1: that they're sorry they committed a crime because they didn't
Speaker 1: commit a crime. Right, And that is an excellent point.
Speaker 1: And you're right, that is what they expect you to say,
Speaker 1: that you did it and that you thrushed your remorse.
Speaker 1: And so it was meant to be to happen that way.
Speaker 1: But how did it feel, Joyce walking out of prison
Speaker 1: and what were some of the conditions of parole once
Speaker 1: you were released. I had certain places I could go,
Speaker 1: such streets so I could go on, you know, certain people,
Speaker 1: so I could talk to They were coming to your
Speaker 1: house when they got ready, teared up whatever hold on,
Speaker 1: Miss Joyce. You said they would. They would come in
Speaker 1: your house and tear it up. They would go through
Speaker 1: everything you had, everything if fory pieza everything, Joyce explained
Speaker 1: to Kimba. Because you weren't just on parole because of
Speaker 1: the rape conviction. You were also on the sex offender
Speaker 1: Registry for life. So so that's like parole times a thousand.
Speaker 1: Sure is I had certain streets I could go to,
Speaker 1: certain people's I could talk to sucha places I could
Speaker 1: all I had to be at home six o'clock. I
Speaker 1: had to get permission to go to church. Such stuff
Speaker 1: I could have in the house. No Internet, they would
Speaker 1: check my cell phone. Couldn't live within a thousand feet
Speaker 1: of a school or a daycare facility, not not even close.
Speaker 1: Not even close to a school or daycare. I couldn't
Speaker 1: pass by during school hours. If kids was walking the
Speaker 1: streets I had and I was on the post, I
Speaker 1: had to go into a leave. And again it speaks
Speaker 1: to your your perspective and resilience through it, because I
Speaker 1: know there are some people that are on saxofriend or
Speaker 1: registries where that could be quite challenging and depending on
Speaker 1: you know, who's supervising them, it could be the least
Speaker 1: little thing and they could be back, you know, in prison.
Speaker 1: So I appreciate you sharing what that was like. Jason,
Speaker 1: can you tell the audience how the Innocence Project of
Speaker 1: Tennessee Nashville became involved in Miss Joyce's case. So most
Speaker 1: people they either write us letters from prison, or their
Speaker 1: families reach out to us, or sometimes their former lawyers
Speaker 1: reach out to us. Joyce paroled in two thousand and fifteen,
Speaker 1: and our organization started in Tennessee in two thousand and nineteen,
Speaker 1: and Joyce just showed up. She we don't we don't
Speaker 1: get a lot of walkins over at the Tennessee Innocence Project,
Speaker 1: but Joyce walked in and and basically said, all right,
Speaker 1: I was wrongfully convicted. I'm still on the sex offender
Speaker 1: registry for a rape that I didn't commit. Uh, you'all
Speaker 1: need to hear my story and you'll need to help.
Speaker 1: And you know you've probably figured out by now that
Speaker 1: you know Joyce is a force of nature and and
Speaker 1: there there there was no saying no to Joyce when
Speaker 1: she did this. So she she came in, she told
Speaker 1: the story to everybody, and then, you know, Joyce and
Speaker 1: I eventually started working together. And you know, when I
Speaker 1: first met with Joyce, uh, there was another person in
Speaker 1: the office with me who was working here, and she
Speaker 1: kind of laid it all out and then I kicked
Speaker 1: that person out and I closed the door. I said,
Speaker 1: all right, Joyce, like, here's the deal. If we're gonna
Speaker 1: do this, you need to tell me your story, like legit.
Speaker 1: I need to believe you. I want to know the
Speaker 1: real deal, and she didn't hesitate. She's like, I did
Speaker 1: not do this. I am one innocent y'all need to
Speaker 1: figure out how you're gonna fix it. But I did
Speaker 1: not do this. And you know, part of me at
Speaker 1: the time was also like, well, look, I get that.
Speaker 1: Maybe you're saying you didn't do it, but what about
Speaker 1: what about Charlie? Now Charlie has passed away at this point,
Speaker 1: you know she can she can say whatever she wants
Speaker 1: about Charlie. Nobody's ever gonna know, and it's just me
Speaker 1: and her sitting in my office. But she is exactly
Speaker 1: the same in that situation as she is when you
Speaker 1: interview her in a Poe caster you put her on TV.
Speaker 1: Charlie did not do this. That man is innocent, and
Speaker 1: you can't just get me exonerated. You need to exonerate
Speaker 1: him too, because he doesn't deserve this. His family doesn't
Speaker 1: deserve this. And you know we're a two for one package.
Speaker 1: If you're going to take this case, you're taking both
Speaker 1: of us. Wow. That is yes. I can see her
Speaker 1: now that I've talked to her more. I can see
Speaker 1: her coming into your office and saying and doing just
Speaker 1: those things. And I know you briefly touched it. But
Speaker 1: what stuck out the most as you are doing this
Speaker 1: post conviction work that ultimately lead to Miss Joyce's innocence. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, at the heart of it, like we talked
Speaker 1: about before, this is a medical case right there. There
Speaker 1: are all of these other things in the mix. But
Speaker 1: we knew that if if we were going to get
Speaker 1: these people exonerated in their names cleared, we were going
Speaker 1: to have to medically make everybody understand that they didn't
Speaker 1: commit this crime. So we had these phenomenal experts, so
Speaker 1: we were able to really establish that the medicine and
Speaker 1: the science and the case was wrong, and it was
Speaker 1: it had always been wrong, and we and everything we
Speaker 1: know now you know over the last three decades was
Speaker 1: more evidence that it was wrong. So we had that.
Speaker 1: The other thing that we had going for us, which
Speaker 1: was huge in this case, is that there's a conviction
Speaker 1: review Unit that exists within the Nashville Davidson County District
Speaker 1: Attorney's Office, and they take these cases seriously. You know.
Speaker 1: They they conducted their own independent investigation when we brought
Speaker 1: them this case, and and they went out and talked
Speaker 1: to their own people and and confirmed that Joyce and
Speaker 1: Charlie were innocent, and after we were able to collaborate
Speaker 1: on this case with their office, we jointly went back
Speaker 1: to court together and asked the judge to dismiss these
Speaker 1: charges and exonerate these people. And and Glenn Funk, who's
Speaker 1: the district attorney and Nashville, was at the court date
Speaker 1: and stood up in the courtroom and apologized to Joyce
Speaker 1: and Charlie's family and told them, you know that they're
Speaker 1: innocent and this never should have happened. And on behalf
Speaker 1: of the District Attorney's office, he's sorry what happened to them.
Speaker 1: And uh, and that was big, right, because that was
Speaker 1: that was really the first time that anybody that had
Speaker 1: anything to do with the state stood up and acknowledged
Speaker 1: what happened and told Joyce that they were sorry for
Speaker 1: what happened. Can you explain when the judge did say
Speaker 1: that her case was dismissed what that feeling was like
Speaker 1: for you, having walked this journey with her, and then
Speaker 1: miss Joyce, I would like to hear your response as well.
Speaker 1: It was a lot, I mean, it was it was
Speaker 1: a pretty moving, emotional day. And I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: really an emotional kind of guy, but it was hard
Speaker 1: to keep it together that day. I mean, Joyce was there,
Speaker 1: her family was there, Charlie's whole family was there, My
Speaker 1: whole family was there. The Tennessee Innocence Project was there.
Speaker 1: I mean it was a packed house and it was
Speaker 1: I mean heartbreaking how we got there. But that day
Speaker 1: was a celebration and that day, I mean, that day
Speaker 1: was wonderful, Miss joy But I was desonerated, you know,
Speaker 1: and she said, you've been exonerated. I said, thank you Jesus.
Speaker 1: It was just it was just a happy, happy day.
Speaker 1: And I said, right then, I said, you know, one
Speaker 1: of my niece, she said, I'll tek what you're gonna do.
Speaker 1: That first thing I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go to
Speaker 1: the cemetery and visit my mother and my sisters and brothers. Filermals.
Speaker 1: So I got a chance to do that. You know.
Speaker 1: It was like, I mean, you just don't know how
Speaker 1: happy I was. You know, I think that's the happiest
Speaker 1: I ever been in my life. You know, even if
Speaker 1: I got on million dollars, I wouldn't been not happy,
Speaker 1: you know, just because to me, I want to say, well,
Speaker 1: it's money. But you know that was one happy day.
Speaker 1: And when the charges with dropped, oh, I can't even
Speaker 1: explain that because I know I didn't have to live
Speaker 1: under nobody else's rules, like the jury just say you
Speaker 1: have the answer to anybody. So I just had her
Speaker 1: hand tod, you know, like to listen that nobody. My
Speaker 1: first place I went to was my sister's house. I
Speaker 1: usually have to call and say, well, I'm going to Nashville.
Speaker 1: I ain't had to call nobody. I just got my
Speaker 1: keys and my person. I told my namebor. Next though,
Speaker 1: she said, it's trustful you going. I said, I fixed
Speaker 1: the go to maps, got in the car and let
Speaker 1: She said, okay. You know when I came back, she said,
Speaker 1: how are you show what happened? I said, I have
Speaker 1: to answer nobody, just just the happy thing to do.
Speaker 1: Just your patience and faith and will to know that
Speaker 1: things were going to change. And you know, twenty seven
Speaker 1: years is not you know, twenty seven months. Like you
Speaker 1: held on to that faith and resilience for twenty seven
Speaker 1: years and there's no ill, angry feelings in your heart.
Speaker 1: And I think that is what is just simply amazing.
Speaker 1: You want to comment, you know, I getting angry doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: They're don't at least all strokes, heart attacks, commitsion, losing
Speaker 1: your mind, you know, want to commit suicide. Uh, I'm
Speaker 1: not angry. I don't have any anger in me. I
Speaker 1: mean I tried to get angry, but it didn't work.
Speaker 1: So I said, well, I said, well, you know, I
Speaker 1: just need to stay like I am. I haven't known
Speaker 1: anger in me. I don't hate anybody for what happened.
Speaker 1: I just don't have any anger. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: Joyce is really the perfect example to be talking about
Speaker 1: these cases. I mean, one because of all the things
Speaker 1: you're seeing, right her grace and her forgiveness and and
Speaker 1: the stuff that sort of shines out from her, but
Speaker 1: also because she's just so innocent, right, I mean when
Speaker 1: you dig into her case, I mean, she's just innocent
Speaker 1: every way you possibly look at this, and it highlights
Speaker 1: the tragedy of these cases and the reality of these
Speaker 1: cases that this actually happens to people like Joyce. You know,
Speaker 1: good people who have never been in trouble, who are
Speaker 1: doing everything right, who are productive citizens. And if it
Speaker 1: can happen to Joyce, it can happen to anybody. And
Speaker 1: and the fact that one that it it happened to
Speaker 1: someone like her, and the strength and perseverance that has
Speaker 1: gotten her through it, and the grace that she's able
Speaker 1: to talk about it now. Uh, it's just so inspiring,
Speaker 1: um sure to the those of us that do this work,
Speaker 1: but it's enlightening for anybody who gets to hear her story,
Speaker 1: which is why it's so important that that she tells
Speaker 1: her story and that she's gracious enough to continue to
Speaker 1: tell her story, because unfortunately, there's lots of other choices
Speaker 1: that are locked up right now for stuff that they
Speaker 1: didn't do, and it's it's impossible to navigate these cases
Speaker 1: on your own from behind bars without help. And unless
Speaker 1: people recognize that the problem exists and and work with
Speaker 1: the organizations and help the people out there that are
Speaker 1: trying to work on these cases, other people like Joyce
Speaker 1: don't get represented, and these stories don't get told, and
Speaker 1: these people don't get their freedom. Miss Joyce, you know,
Speaker 1: I wish you nothing but um success as you move on,
Speaker 1: and you know, I pray that your your story continues
Speaker 1: to be uplifted so it can help bring some light
Speaker 1: to the injustice that happens in our system. I help,
Speaker 1: it help, and I hope it do some good into
Speaker 1: Justice Center, and I hope they look at paces a
Speaker 1: little bit closer than what they're doing, so this never
Speaker 1: happened to someone else, just because you know, you don't
Speaker 1: present all the evidence. I just wish they would do
Speaker 1: the right thing about everything, because they're not accomplished nothing
Speaker 1: by sending them some people to prison. What's the final
Speaker 1: take that you have for our audience today from your
Speaker 1: experience and what you've shared to never give up, Never
Speaker 1: give up. You know there are organizations somebody out there
Speaker 1: will help you, but you can't give up and expect
Speaker 1: to achieve your freedom. You just can't give up. You
Speaker 1: just have to keep going and going until you get
Speaker 1: to the right person. And that's what I did until
Speaker 1: I got to the right person. But don't give up.
Speaker 1: Whatever you do, don't give up. Thank you for listening
Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host, kimber Smith. I'd
Speaker 1: like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam and Kevin Warts.
Speaker 1: The senior producer for the episode is Jackie Polly, and
Speaker 1: our producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburne. Our editor
Speaker 1: is Alexandra Guidi. The music in this production is three
Speaker 1: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well
Speaker 1: as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms, you
Speaker 1: can find me on Instagram at Kembas Smith and read
Speaker 1: more about my story and my memoir poster child. Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one. Next week, on the
Speaker 1: guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction, Lura and I Writer
Speaker 1: will be back with an absolutely insane false confession story.
Speaker 1: She's going to speak with Vincent Ellerbee, who served almost
Speaker 1: twenty five years in prison after he was falsely identified
Speaker 1: in a deadly arson attack on a subway token booth,
Speaker 1: an event that captivated New York City. Vincent was only
Speaker 1: recently exonerated, totally innocent, and this emotional interview is the
Speaker 1: first time he's sharing his story publicly anywhere. Listen next Monday.
Speaker 1: This is a must listen episode. Listen next Monday in
Speaker 1: the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed