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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flomm. Since I began recording Wrongful Conviction back

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of Xonneries, and unfortunately

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Speaker 1: that's just the tip of the criminal injustice iceberg. So

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Speaker 1: I've invited new voices to host the show, including people

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Speaker 1: who have personally experienced the horror of that system. This

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Speaker 1: is one of those interviews.

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Speaker 2: In the summer of nineteen eighty seven, Joyce Watkins lived

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Speaker 2: a good life in Nashville, Tennessee.

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Speaker 1: She worked a full.

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Speaker 2: Time job, went to church every Sunday, spent time with

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Speaker 2: her boyfriend, Charlie Dunn, and was preparing to adopt a child.

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Speaker 2: She had a large extended family, including a four year

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Speaker 2: old great niece who lived in Georgia. That summer, the

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Speaker 2: little girl was staying with other family members in Kentucky,

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Speaker 2: but things were not going well. Joyce got a call

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Speaker 2: from her sister, who was watching the child, asking if

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Speaker 2: Joyce could come and pick her up. Busy with her

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Speaker 2: own life, Joyce told their sister she couldn't care for

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Speaker 2: the child. Over the span of a week, Joyce's sister

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Speaker 2: called several more times, each call more frantic than the last. Finally,

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Speaker 2: Joyce agreed to come pick up the little girl and

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Speaker 2: take her back to Nashville. Joyce and Charlie took her home,

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Speaker 2: noticing almost immediately that she was acting strangely and suffering

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Speaker 2: from abnormal vaginal bleeding. At the hospital, it was clear

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Speaker 2: that the little girl didn't only have a vaginal injury,

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Speaker 2: but was bleeding in her brain. She received emergency care

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Speaker 2: and was placed on life support. The next day, the

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Speaker 2: four year old died. In an investigation that relied on

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Speaker 2: an erroneous autopsy report and little else. Both Joyce and

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Speaker 2: Charlie were charged with the sexual abuse and death of

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Speaker 2: the child. They were convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

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Speaker 2: This its wrongful conviction. My name is Kimba Smith. I'm

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Speaker 2: a mother, wife, author, and criminal justice advocate. For me,

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Speaker 2: the work of advocating for prison and sentencing reform is personal.

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Speaker 2: When I was a student in college, I was caught

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Speaker 2: up in a physical, abusive relationship with a drug dealer.

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Speaker 2: He was killed and I was held responsible for his

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Speaker 2: drug crimes. In nineteen ninety four, at the height of

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Speaker 2: the War on Drugs, I was sentenced to twenty four

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Speaker 2: and a half years in prison. When I was just

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Speaker 2: twenty three years old myself. Thankfully I didn't have to

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Speaker 2: serve my full sentence. My case caught the attention of

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Speaker 2: the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and many other organizations, as

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Speaker 2: well as the host of this show, Jason Flom. They

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Speaker 2: fought for me, and I was granted executive clemency by

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Speaker 2: President Clinton. My guest today is a woman who inspires

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Speaker 2: me with not only her story, but her incredible resilience

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Speaker 2: and faith, Miss Joyce Watkins and her attorney, mister Jason Gishner.

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Speaker 3: Okay, my name is Joyce Watkins and I'm seventy four

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Speaker 3: years old, seventy five years old. I live in Franklin County.

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Speaker 3: Thanks are going real well for me now, I don't

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Speaker 3: have any complaints.

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Speaker 4: Hey, I'm Jason Gishner. I'm the senior legal counsel at

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Speaker 4: the Tennessee Innocence Project and our office had the great

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Speaker 4: honor of representing Joyce in court on her case.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you so very much. And Miss Joyce, you

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Speaker 2: have such a sweet spirit and no one could look

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Speaker 2: at you and anticipate that you have this journey. And

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Speaker 2: I wanted to know more about what your life was

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Speaker 2: like before all of this happened.

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Speaker 3: I worked in a TI factory, I be at car ties,

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Speaker 3: was working doing good, ready to adopt the key, give

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Speaker 3: some kid a nice home to live in, you know,

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Speaker 3: and I basically just work church sports, I love football, travel,

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Speaker 3: I love my family. So I was just a quiet,

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Speaker 3: laid back person.

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Speaker 2: Jason, This is where I would like to transition to you.

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Speaker 2: How does a woman like miss Watkins go from being

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Speaker 2: a law abiding, sentence, church going woman, hardworking to being

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Speaker 2: sentenced to life in prison.

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, Joyce's story is consistent with what we see in

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Speaker 4: a lot of wrongful convictions. You know, this was really

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Speaker 4: a perfect storm of things that went wrong to make

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Speaker 4: this happen. You know, Joyce and Charlie. Charlie Dunn was

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Speaker 4: Joyce's co defendant who was her boyfriend at the time,

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Speaker 4: and the two of them were both arrested in nineteen

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Speaker 4: eighty seven for a rape and murder that they didn't commit,

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Speaker 4: and neither one of them have ever been in trouble

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Speaker 4: for anything in their life. Joyce is in Madison and

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Speaker 4: she starts to get phone calls from a family member

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Speaker 4: that's in Kentucky who's taking care of her great niece,

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Speaker 4: who's a four year old girl and she's asking Joyce,

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Speaker 4: can you come pick the little girl up? Well, Joyce

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Speaker 4: has a full time job. As she told you, she

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Speaker 4: was in the process of adopting a child, but didn't

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Speaker 4: have any children of her own at that point, so

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Speaker 4: she doesn't have daycare. She doesn't have anybody who can

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Speaker 4: watch a child during the day, so she's not able

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Speaker 4: to pick her great niece up. So Joyce says, there's

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Speaker 4: nothing I can do about it. But then there's a

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Speaker 4: week that comes along and the calls start to get

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Speaker 4: more and more frantic, and Joyce realizes that something is wrong,

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Speaker 4: or at least concerning. I should go pick the little

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Speaker 4: girl up and find out what's the situation here. So

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Speaker 4: on a Friday evening, Joyce had gotten out of work

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Speaker 4: that day, she drives out to Kentucky to pick the

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Speaker 4: little girl up. Charlie gets caught up in this whole

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Speaker 4: thing for no other reason than because he didn't want

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Speaker 4: his girlfriend to have to drive in the dark, so

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Speaker 4: he drives along with Joyce to go pick her up

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Speaker 4: in Kentucky. They picked the little girl up, they head

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Speaker 4: back to Nashville, and pretty quickly when they arrive in Nashville,

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Speaker 4: Joyce realizes something is wrong. She notices that the little

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Speaker 4: girl has some vaginal bleeding and she's just not acting right.

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Speaker 4: So Joyce does what anybody would do. At this point,

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Speaker 4: it's the middle of the night. By the time they

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Speaker 4: get back to Nashville, it's after midnight. Joyce calls up

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Speaker 4: the little girl's mom in Georgia. She had been staying

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Speaker 4: with this family member in Kentucky. This was nothing out

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Speaker 4: of the ordinary, sort of something that this family did.

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Speaker 4: You know, nieces and nephews would go stay for periods

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Speaker 4: of time with family members. So Joyce calls up the

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Speaker 4: family member, the child's mother, who is Joyce's niece also

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Speaker 4: because this was her great niece, and says, hey, something's

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Speaker 4: wrong with your daughter. I'm noticing these medical issues. What

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Speaker 4: should I do about it? So mom says, don't do

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Speaker 4: anything about it. I'm going to come to Nashville and

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Speaker 4: we'll get this sorted out. So everybody goes to bed,

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Speaker 4: and then they wake up the next morning and the

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Speaker 4: person hasn't arrived from Georgia yet, and Joyce realizes that

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Speaker 4: the situation has gotten worse. The little girl still bleeding

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Speaker 4: and she's not acting right, something's just off. So Joyce says,

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Speaker 4: I can't wait anymore. I'm going to bring her to

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Speaker 4: get some medical care. So Joyce takes her to the hospital,

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Speaker 4: which is, you know, what you'd want somebody to do

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Speaker 4: in that situation. Unfortunately, by the time they get to

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Speaker 4: the hospital, the situation is deteriorating and the little girl

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Speaker 4: is crashing and they realize that not only does she

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Speaker 4: have a vaginal injury, but she's got a subdural hematoma,

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Speaker 4: she's got a head injury, and her you know, her

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Speaker 4: brain is bleeding, and that becomes the urgent issue that

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Speaker 4: they do everything they can to try and figure out

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Speaker 4: why she has this this hemorrhaging in her brain and

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Speaker 4: if they can do anything about it, and tragically, the

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Speaker 4: little girl dies the next day.

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Speaker 2: Basically, you have this, you know, two month period where

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Speaker 2: Beebee was at a relative's house and then with her

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Speaker 2: and mister Dunn with them for nine hours, and they

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Speaker 2: chose to focus in on those nine hours when there

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Speaker 2: was documentation that there was stuff that had been going

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Speaker 2: on previously as well. So can you give us some

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Speaker 2: more background information to this case.

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Speaker 4: So initially what happens is that everybody is focused on

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Speaker 4: what was going on in Kentucky. This little girl was

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Speaker 4: with Joyce and Charlie for nine hours, and the majority

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Speaker 4: of that time she was sleeping, and part of that

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Speaker 4: time she was driving from Kentucky to Nashville. Nobody really

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Speaker 4: thinks anything strange happened in Nashville. After all, Joyce is

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Speaker 4: the person that brought this child in for medical care

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Speaker 4: and called her mother as soon as she knew something

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Speaker 4: was wrong. So nobody's even looking at these people, you know,

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Speaker 4: they're sort of focusing on what was going on in Kentucky,

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Speaker 4: and there had been some strange circumstances there. There had

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Speaker 4: been an investigation from the Family Services department out there.

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Speaker 4: But then things change after the autopsy is conducted. There's

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Speaker 4: an autopsy that is conducted by the assistant medical examiner

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Speaker 4: in Nashville who tells the prosecutor that I know from

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Speaker 4: looking at the brain slides in this autopsy that the

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Speaker 4: head trauma to this little girl had to have happened

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Speaker 4: within this window of time that she was with Joyce

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Speaker 4: and Charlie. And the reason she says she knows that

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Speaker 4: is because there was a particular type of cell that

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Speaker 4: she was looking for a healing cell which is called

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Speaker 4: a histiocyte, and she says, because I didn't see this

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Speaker 4: cell in the brain slide, that tells me the window

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Speaker 4: of time when this head injury could have happened was

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Speaker 4: when this nine hour window when the little girl was

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Speaker 4: with Joyce and Charlie missus.

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Speaker 2: Joyce, I wanted to ask you because I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm formally incarcerated and I actually you know, turned my

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Speaker 2: self in, but just this was such a nightmare for you,

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Speaker 2: and to know that you were preparing to adopt the

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Speaker 2: child and to be faced with these accusations. How did

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Speaker 2: you feel when you were actually arrested and going through

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Speaker 2: this process knowing that you were innocent.

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Speaker 3: Well, I got medical attention for her because I thought

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Speaker 3: that was the right thing to do. So when I

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Speaker 3: got accused of that, you know, I knew it wasn't true.

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Speaker 3: So it wasn't a time to start stressing over something

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Speaker 3: that you didn't do. You try to find ways to

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Speaker 3: prove that you didn't do it. You just have to

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Speaker 3: be positive thinking about everything and not just fall apart.

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Speaker 3: So I didn't give up, you know, point fingers of

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Speaker 3: saying anything, lying on people. I just just didn't stress

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Speaker 3: all that, and it was very hard to except.

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Speaker 2: So, Jason, if you don't mind going into initially with troal,

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Speaker 2: what was miss Watkin's defense, what was presented by her attorney.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the defense was essentially, these people didn't do it.

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Speaker 4: You know, they were interviewed, they said they didn't do it,

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Speaker 4: and there was you know, nothing about them or their

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Speaker 4: character that should make anyone believe that they did it,

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Speaker 4: which we're all appropriate things to say. The problem is

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Speaker 4: that the jury was confronted with a medical opinion from

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Speaker 4: an expert on a subject that they don't know anything about,

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Speaker 4: that none of us would know anything about if we weren't,

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Speaker 4: you know, didn't go to medical school ourselves, and nobody

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Speaker 4: told them that that opinion was wrong. The big revelation

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Speaker 4: that doesn't come out until years later is that the

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Speaker 4: type of cell that the medical examiner was looking for

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Speaker 4: in these brain slides is not a cell that ever

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Speaker 4: goes to that part of the brain. That's not a thing.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't ever happen. Trying to date this injury by

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Speaker 4: looking for this cell is an impossibility. And the other

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Speaker 4: thing that the medical examiner failed to take into account,

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Speaker 4: which didn't come out until twenty twenty one when we

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Speaker 4: started having these exoneration hearings, was that the cells that

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Speaker 4: were evident in the vaginal slides were cells called macrophages

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Speaker 4: that showed that this is an injury that had happened

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Speaker 4: in the days prior, well before this child was ever

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Speaker 4: with Joyce or Charlie. So there was no medical evidence

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Speaker 4: whatsoever connecting the head injury to this nine hour window.

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Speaker 4: And there was definitive medical evidence that whatever happened in

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Speaker 4: terms of any type of vaginal injury happened well before

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Speaker 4: the child was with these two people. And you know,

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Speaker 4: if you put yourself in a jurors shoes in that situation,

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Speaker 4: what are you going to do. I have a lot

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Speaker 4: of blame that I throw around in this case, but

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Speaker 4: it's not really at the jury, because I don't know

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Speaker 4: what the jury could have done otherwise, because nobody gave

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Speaker 4: them the information they needed to hear. If they hear

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Speaker 4: from a doctor saying I know these people did it

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Speaker 4: and medically this is why, and that's not contested, then

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Speaker 4: they're stuck. And that's that's effectively what happened. And the

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Speaker 4: other interesting thing that happened during the trial, which you know,

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Speaker 4: Joyce can talk about if you'd like her to. Is

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Speaker 4: that the prosecution tried to offer Joyce a deal in

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Speaker 4: the middle of the trial. You know, they offered her,

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Speaker 4: effectively a one year sentence to flip on Charlie, to

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Speaker 4: say that he raped and murdered this little girl. And

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Speaker 4: Joyce flat out turned them down in the middle of

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Speaker 4: the trial and walked right back in the courtroom and

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Speaker 4: you know, and waited for the jury to give her

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Speaker 4: a life sentence. And Charlie's family never knew that. They

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Speaker 4: learned about that at the exoneration hearing in December of

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty one. So you know, these kids grew up

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Speaker 4: thinking that their dad was a murderer and thinking that

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Speaker 4: he had gotten brought into this thing because he had

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Speaker 4: gone along for a ride with Joyce, and they never

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Speaker 4: knew that. You know, Joyce effectively took a life sentence

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Speaker 4: because she was unwilling to lie on Charlie and say

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Speaker 4: he did something he didn't do.

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Speaker 2: Joyce, So wow, that miss Joyce. That is Can you

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Speaker 2: share more with us about that if you don't mind,

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Speaker 2: I mean, because that is definitely again commendable in this

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Speaker 2: day and age. If you know a young person goes

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Speaker 2: through the system and is bought with that type of

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Speaker 2: opportunity to free themselves. You know, it's in the culture

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Speaker 2: just to you know, take that. But I know you

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Speaker 2: knew your innocence. Can you explain to us that process

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Speaker 2: and what you were thinking.

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Speaker 3: I just didn't feel like I need to lie and

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Speaker 3: send that man to prison for something that I know

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Speaker 3: he didn't do. So you know, when I was off

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Speaker 3: of the year to say that he did it, I'd say, well,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to do that, and I went back

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Speaker 3: in the courtroom. You know, you don't do things just

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Speaker 3: save yourself, but you're hurt that person and you're hurting

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Speaker 3: their family. So I just thought I did the right

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Speaker 3: thing about not just lying on the man because he

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Speaker 3: hadn't done anything.

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Speaker 2: It's just interesting how the government will create opportunities like that.

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Speaker 2: You know, with my situation, I was pregnant and they

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Speaker 2: fed me information that they wanted me to say and

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Speaker 2: thought that I would say what they wanted to say

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Speaker 2: in order to save myself. And what baffles me with

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Speaker 2: your situation again is you know they were targeting you,

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Speaker 2: then they wanted you to cooperate to flip on mister Dunn,

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Speaker 2: And it just seems evident throughout this that they weren't

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Speaker 2: even interested in finding out and getting justice for the victim.

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Speaker 2: How do you feel about that? As far as whoever

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor was, whoever those parties, they were just wanting

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Speaker 2: to get a conviction by any means necessary, you know,

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Speaker 2: instead of doing their jobs and trying to seek and

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Speaker 2: find justice, using you guys escape ghoasts because they needed

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Speaker 2: an arrest and to block somebody up. How do you

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Speaker 2: feel about that?

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Speaker 3: It was wrong what they did. You don't hate anybody

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Speaker 3: for anything, but you know that what they did was wrong,

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Speaker 3: and there were things that they could have done and

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Speaker 3: should have done to find out the truth. But since

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Speaker 3: they had focused on us, that is all they wanted.

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Speaker 3: They just wanted the conviction to close the case. They

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Speaker 3: didn't care if you did it or not. They didn't

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Speaker 3: care if they had the right person the wrong person.

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Speaker 3: They just wanted a conviction, and that's what they thought

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Speaker 3: they was gonna get. But I just wasn't gonna fall

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Speaker 3: into that trap.

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Speaker 2: As you speak about, you know, the conviction. Once both

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Speaker 2: sides finished speaking and the guilty verdict was handed down,

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Speaker 2: what were your thoughts at that moment.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I was let down. I was heartbroken over it,

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Speaker 3: you know, because I knew I wasn't gonna get a

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Speaker 3: chance to spend much more time with my family. And

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Speaker 3: it just was a hurting situation. But as the years

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Speaker 3: went through, you know, my family tried to get me out,

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Speaker 3: but then my family, my siblings started passing away. So

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Speaker 3: I lost four brothers and a sister, you know, seven

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Speaker 3: or eight aunties and office and stuff. But I didn't

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Speaker 3: give up. I just kept hoping and praying and trusting.

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Speaker 3: But it was a hurting situation. But you know, like

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Speaker 3: I say, I don't flip or get stressed over something

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Speaker 3: because that doesn't help. That doesn't help solve the problem anyway.

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Speaker 2: Your resilience, Miss Joyce, I mean you tap in with

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Speaker 2: the ancestors and all of what our ancestors went through

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Speaker 2: to be where we are today, that resilience just oozes

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Speaker 2: out of you. Because your positivity through all of this

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Speaker 2: is remarkable and I don't see how you have such peace.

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Speaker 2: But if you could, can you tell us about the

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Speaker 2: parole process and when were you eligible for parole? Let

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Speaker 2: me just start there after how much time were you

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Speaker 2: actually eligible to go up for parole what.

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Speaker 3: The law said. I was to do seventeen point five

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Speaker 3: under the old law, but I did the twenty seven years.

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Speaker 3: But I had went up for parole two or three

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Speaker 3: times and they turned me down. So at the Charlie

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Speaker 3: Pass I made parole. The little girl's mother, my nieces

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Speaker 3: and my sister, they came to the parole board and

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Speaker 3: told them she don't know what happened. She needs a

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Speaker 3: lot of goal, you know, she don't know. They don't

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Speaker 3: know what happened, so I might parole. But being on

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Speaker 3: parole wasn't a nice thing to be, not a Tennessee.

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Speaker 4: I'm kem before it's worth. I'm shocked and have always

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Speaker 4: been shocked that they parole Joyce at all. I mean,

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Speaker 4: as you know, most of the time, if you're going

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Speaker 4: to get paroled, you've got to go in there and say, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I did it, I'm sorry, and let me prove to

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Speaker 4: you that I'm sorry. Joyce every time she has ever

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Speaker 4: been asked about this by anybody, said I didn't do this.

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Speaker 4: You've got somebody in prison who's innocent. You know, a

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Speaker 4: lot of times, unfortunately, people who are wrongfully convicted who

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Speaker 4: maintain their innocence don't parole out because they're never going

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Speaker 4: to be in a position where they admitted that they

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Speaker 4: committed a crime and that they're sorry they committed a

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Speaker 4: crime because they didn't commit.

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Speaker 2: A crime, right, And that is an excellent point. And

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Speaker 2: you're right, that is what they expect to say, that

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Speaker 2: you did it and that you thrush your remorse. And

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Speaker 2: so it was meant to be to happen that way.

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Speaker 2: But how did it feel, Joyce walking out of prison?

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Speaker 2: And what were some of the conditions of parole once

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Speaker 2: you were released.

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Speaker 3: I had certain places I could go, such streets I

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Speaker 3: could go on, you know, certain peoples I could talk to.

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Speaker 3: They were come into your house when they got ready

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Speaker 3: tear it up.

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Speaker 2: Whatever hold on, Miss Joyce. You said they would come

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Speaker 2: in your house and tear it up.

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Speaker 3: They would go through everything you had, everything, every piece

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Speaker 3: of everything.

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Speaker 4: Joyce, explain to Kimba. Because you weren't just on parole

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Speaker 4: because of the rape conviction. You were also on the

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Speaker 4: sex offender Registry for life. So that's like parole times

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Speaker 4: one thousand.

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Speaker 3: Sure is. I had certain streets I could go to,

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Speaker 3: certain peoples I could talk to, certain places I could go.

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Speaker 3: I had to be at home six o'clock. I had

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Speaker 3: to get permission to go to church. Such stuff I

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Speaker 3: could have in the house, No Internet, they would check

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Speaker 3: myself phone.

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Speaker 4: Couldn't live within a thousand feet of a school or

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Speaker 4: a daycare facility, not even close.

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Speaker 3: Not even close to a school or daycare. I couldn't

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Speaker 3: pass by during school hours. If kids was walking the

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Speaker 3: streets and I was on the post, I had to

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Speaker 3: go in till they leave.

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Speaker 2: And again it speaks to your your perspective and resilience

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Speaker 2: through it, because I know there are some people that

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Speaker 2: are on sexophreond or registries where that could be quite

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Speaker 2: challenging and depending on you know, who's supervising them, it

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Speaker 2: could be the least little thing and they could be back,

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Speaker 2: you know, in prison. So I appreciate you sharing what

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Speaker 2: that was like. Jason, can you tell the audience how

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Speaker 2: the Innocence Project of Tennessee Nashville became involved in Miss

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Speaker 2: Joyce's case.

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Speaker 4: So most people they either write us letters from prison,

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Speaker 4: or their families reach out to us, or sometimes their

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Speaker 4: former lawyers reach out to us. Joyce paroled in twenty

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Speaker 4: and fifteen, and our organization started in Tennessee in twenty

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Speaker 4: nineteen and Joyce just showed up. We don't get a

380
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Speaker 4: lot of walkins over at the Tennessee Innocence Project, but

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Speaker 4: Joyce walked in and basically said, all right, I was

382
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Speaker 4: wrongfully convicted. I'm still on the sex offender registry for

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Speaker 4: a rape that I didn't commit. Y'all need to hear

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Speaker 4: my story, and y'all need to help. And you know

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Speaker 4: you've probably figured out by now that you know Joyce

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Speaker 4: is a force of nature and there was no saying

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Speaker 4: no to Joyce when she did that. So she she

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Speaker 4: came in, she told the story to everybody, and then,

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Speaker 4: you know, Joyce and I eventually started working together. And

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Speaker 4: you know, when I first met with Joyce, there was

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Speaker 4: another person in the office with me who was working here,

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Speaker 4: and she kind of laid it all out and then

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Speaker 4: I kicked that person out and I closed the door.

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Speaker 4: I said, all right, Joyce, like, here's the deal. If

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Speaker 4: we're going to do this, you need to tell me

396
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Speaker 4: your story, like legit. I need to believe you. I

397
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Speaker 4: want to know the real deal. And she didn't hesitate.

398
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Speaker 4: She's like, I did not do this. I am one

399
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Speaker 4: hundred percent innocent. Y'all need to figure out how you're

400
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Speaker 4: going to fix it. But I did not do this.

401
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Speaker 4: And you know, part of me at the time was

402
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Speaker 4: also like, well, look, I get that maybe you're saying

403
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Speaker 4: you didn't do it, but what about what about Charlie.

404
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 4: Now Charlie's passed away at this point, you know she

405
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Speaker 4: can she can say whatever she wants about Charlie. Nobody's

406
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Speaker 4: ever going to know, and it's just me and her

407
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Speaker 4: sitting in my office. But she is exactly the same

408
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 4: in that situation as she is when you interview her

409
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Speaker 4: in a pot cast or you put her on TV.

410
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Speaker 4: Charlie did not do this. That man is innocent, and

411
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Speaker 4: you can't just get me exonerated. You need to exonerate

412
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Speaker 4: him too, because he doesn't deserve this. His family doesn't

413
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 4: deserve this. And you know we're a two for one package.

414
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Speaker 4: If you're going to take this case, you're taking both

415
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Speaker 4: of us.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that is yes. I can see her now that

417
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Speaker 2: I've talked to her more. I can see her coming

418
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Speaker 2: into your office and saying and doing just those things.

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Speaker 2: And I know you briefly touched it. But what stuck

420
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Speaker 2: out the most as you were doing this post conviction

421
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Speaker 2: work that ultimately led to miss Joyce's innocence.

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Speaker 4: So, I mean, at the heart of it, like we

423
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 4: talked about before, this is a medical case, right, There

424
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Speaker 4: are all of these other things in the mix. But

425
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Speaker 4: we knew that if we were going to get these

426
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Speaker 4: people exonerated and their names cleared, we were going to

427
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Speaker 4: have to medically make everybody understand that they didn't commit

428
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Speaker 4: this crime. So we had these phenomenal experts, so we

429
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 4: were able to really establish that the medicine and the

430
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 4: science and the case was wrong, and it had always

431
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Speaker 4: been wrong, and everything we know now, you know, over

432
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Speaker 4: the last three decades was more evidence that it was wrong.

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Speaker 4: So we had that. The other thing that we had

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Speaker 4: going for us, which was huge in this case, is

435
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Speaker 4: that there's a conviction review unit that exists within the

436
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 4: Nashville Davidson County District Attorney's Office, and they take these

437
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 4: cases seriously. You know, they conducted their own independent investigation

438
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 4: when we brought them this case, and they went out

439
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 4: and talked to their own people and confirmed that Joyce

440
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 4: and Charlie were innocent. And after we were able to

441
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 4: collaborate on this case with their office, we jointly went

442
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 4: back to court together and asked the judge to dismiss

443
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 4: these charges and exonerate these people. And Glenn Funk, who's

444
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 4: the district attorney in Nashville, was at the court date

445
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 4: and stood up in the court room and apologized to

446
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 4: Joyce and Charlie's family and told them, you know that

447
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 4: they're innocent and this never should have happened. And on

448
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 4: behalf of the District Attorney's office, he's sorry what happened

449
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 4: to them. And that was big right, because that was

450
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 4: really the first time that anybody that had anything to

451
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 4: do with the state stood up and acknowledged what happened

452
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 4: and told Joyce that they were sorry for what happened.

453
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 2: Can you explain when the judge did say that her

454
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: case was dismissed, what that feeling was like for you,

455
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 2: having walk this journey with her, and then miss Joyce,

456
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: I would like to hear your response as well.

457
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,919
Speaker 4: It was a lot. I mean, it was a pretty moving,

458
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 4: emotional day. And I'm not really an emotional kind of guy,

459
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 4: but it was hard to keep it together that day.

460
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 4: I mean, Joyce was there, her family was there, Charlie's

461
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 4: whole family was there, My whole family was there. The

462
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 4: Tennessee Innocence Project was there. I mean it was a

463
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 4: packed house and it was I mean heartbreaking how we

464
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 4: got there. But that day was a celebration. And that day,

465
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 4: I mean, that day was wonderful.

466
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: Miss Joyce.

467
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 3: When I was exonerated, you know, and she said you've

468
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 3: been exonerated, I said, thank you Jesus. Was just it

469
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 3: was just a happy, happy day. And I said right

470
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 3: there and I said, you know, one of my niece,

471
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 3: she said, I tell you what you're gonna do. The

472
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 3: first thing I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go to the

473
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 3: cemetery and visit my mother and my sisters and brothers funerals.

474
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: So I got a chance to do that. You know,

475
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 3: it was a I mean, you just don't know how

476
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 3: happy I was.

477
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 4: You know.

478
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: I think that's the happiest I ever been in my life.

479
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 3: You know, even if I'd have got a million dollars,

480
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be that happy, you know, just because to me,

481
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 3: I would have said, well this money. But you know,

482
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 3: that was one happy day. And when the charges were dropped, oh,

483
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: I can't even explain that because I know I didn't

484
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 3: have to live under nobody else's rules like the Jersey

485
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 3: say you have to answer to anybody. So I just

486
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 3: had her aunt toode, you not listen to nobody. You know,

487
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 3: my first place I went to was my sister's house.

488
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 3: I usually have to call and say, well, I'm going

489
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 3: to Nashville. I ain't have to call nobody. I just

490
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 3: got my kids and my purse and I told my

491
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 3: neighbor next door. She said, mis chourge, where are you going?

492
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 3: I said, up, fixed to go to maps, got in

493
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: the card, left, She said, okay. You know when I

494
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 3: came here, she said her, Are you sure?

495
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 4: Was happy?

496
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 3: I said, I have to answer nobody. It was just

497
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 3: just the happy.

498
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: Thing to do.

499
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: Just your patience and faith and will to know that

500
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: things were going to change. And you know, twenty seven

501
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: years is not you know, twenty seven months. Like you

502
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 2: held on to that faith and resilience for twenty seven years,

503
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: and there's no ill, angry feelings in your heart. And

504
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 2: I think that is what is just simply amazing. You

505
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: want to comment, you.

506
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 3: Know, I getting anger. It doesn't help. They're on at

507
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: least all strokes, heart attacks, dimssion, losing your mind, you know,

508
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: want to commit suicide. Uh, I'm not angry. I don't

509
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 3: have any anger in me. I mean, I've tried to

510
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 3: get angry, but it didn't work. So I said, well,

511
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 3: I said, well, you know, I just need to stay

512
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 3: like I am. I have no anger in me. I

513
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 3: don't hate anybody for what happened. I just don't have

514
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 3: any anger.

515
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 4: I mean, I think Joyce is really the perfect example

516
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 4: to be talking about these cases. I mean, one because

517
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 4: of all the things you're seeing, right, her grace and

518
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 4: her forgiveness and the stuff that sort of shines out

519
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 4: from her, but also because she's just so innocent, right,

520
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 4: I mean when you dig into her case, I mean,

521
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 4: she's just innocent every way you possibly look at this,

522
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 4: and it highlights the tragedy of these cases and the

523
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 4: reality of these cases that this actually happens to people

524
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 4: like Joyce. You know, good people who've never been in trouble,

525
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 4: who are doing everything right, who are productive citizens, And

526
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 4: if it can happen to Joyce, it can happen to anybody.

527
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 4: And the fact that one that it happened to someone

528
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 4: like her, and the strength and perseverance that has gotten

529
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 4: her through it, and the grace that she's able to

530
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 4: talk about it now, it's just so inspiring. Sure to

531
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 4: those of us that do this work, but it's enlightening

532
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 4: for anybody who gets to hear her story. Which it's

533
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 4: why it's so important that she tells her story and

534
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 4: that she's gracious enough to continue to tell her story,

535
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 4: because unfortunately, there's lots of other choices that are locked

536
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 4: up right now for stuff that they didn't do, and

537
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 4: it's impossible to navigate these cases on your own from

538
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 4: behind bars without help. And unless people recognize that the

539
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 4: problem exists and work with the organizations and help the

540
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 4: people out there that are trying to work on these cases,

541
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 4: other people like Joys don't get represented, and these stories

542
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: don't get told, and these people don't get their freedom. Ms.

543
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 2: Joyce, you know, I wish you nothing but success as

544
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: you move on, and you know, I pray that your

545
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: story continues to be uplifted so it can help bring

546
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 2: some light to the injustice that happens in our system.

547
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: I hope it help, and I hope it do some

548
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 3: good into justice cinema, and I hope they look at

549
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 3: cases a little bit closer than what they're doing so

550
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 3: this never happened to someone else. Just because you know,

551
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: you don't present all the evidence. I just wish they

552
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 3: would do the right thing about everything, because they're not

553
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 3: accomplished nothing by sending them some people of the prison.

554
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: What's the final take that you have for our audience

555
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 2: today from your experience and what you've shared.

556
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 3: To never give up, Never give up. You know there

557
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 3: are organizations somebody out there will help you, but you

558
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 3: can't give up and expect to achieve your freedom. You

559
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 3: just can't give up. You just have to keep going

560
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 3: and going until you get to the right person. And

561
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: that's what I did until I got to the right person.

562
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 3: But don't give up. Whatever you do, don't give up.

563
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,

564
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: Kemba Smith. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason

565
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: Flamm and Kevin Watis. The senior producer for the episode

566
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 2: is Jackie Paully, and our producers are Leila Robinson and

567
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: Jeff Cliburn. Our editor is Roxandra Guidi. The music in

568
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: this production is three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Routh.

569
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

570
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

571
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: wrong Conviction. As well as at Lava for Good on

572
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: all three platforms. You can find me on Instagram at

573
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: Kemba Smith and read more about my story in my

574
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 2: memoir poster Child. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava

575
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one.

576
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction,

577
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: Laura and I Writer will be back with an absolutely

578
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: insane false confession story. She's going to speak with Vincent Ellerby,

579
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: who served almost twenty five years in prison after he

580
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: was falsely identified in a deadly arson attack on a

581
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: subway token booth, an event that captivated New York City.

582
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: Vincent was only recently exonerated, totally innocent, and this emotional

583
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 1: interview is the first time he's sharing his story publicly anywhere.

584
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: Listen next Monday. This is a must listen episode. Listen

585
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed