WEBVTT - The Wind Power Pioneer Still Pushing the Frontier

0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796
<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

0:00:21.356 --> 0:00:25.436
<v Speaker 2>Wind power is big, and it's getting bigger. Wind generates

0:00:25.476 --> 0:00:28.236
<v Speaker 2>about ten percent of the electricity in the United States,

0:00:28.596 --> 0:00:31.996
<v Speaker 2>even more in parts of Western Europe, and companies like

0:00:32.196 --> 0:00:36.196
<v Speaker 2>Vestas Wind Systems sell billions and billions of dollars of

0:00:36.396 --> 0:00:40.356
<v Speaker 2>giant wind turbines every year. To a large extent, this

0:00:40.716 --> 0:00:45.196
<v Speaker 2>giant global industry was created by a few tinkerers in

0:00:45.316 --> 0:00:49.676
<v Speaker 2>rural Denmark in the nineteen seventies. They weren't PhDs, they

0:00:49.676 --> 0:00:53.596
<v Speaker 2>weren't running venture backed startups. They were students and farmers

0:00:53.596 --> 0:00:56.516
<v Speaker 2>and teachers who were reacting to the skyrocketing price of

0:00:56.556 --> 0:00:59.196
<v Speaker 2>electricity and trying to figure out a way to make

0:00:59.276 --> 0:01:03.356
<v Speaker 2>clean power in a windy place. Maybe the most important

0:01:03.436 --> 0:01:07.316
<v Speaker 2>tinkerer was Henrik Steesdale. He started out as a farm

0:01:07.436 --> 0:01:10.436
<v Speaker 2>kid who liked to build stuff, and today, almost fifty

0:01:10.516 --> 0:01:18.756
<v Speaker 2>years later, he's still building. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this

0:01:18.876 --> 0:01:20.716
<v Speaker 2>is What's Your Problem, the show where I talk to

0:01:20.756 --> 0:01:24.036
<v Speaker 2>people who are trying to make technological progress. My guest

0:01:24.036 --> 0:01:27.716
<v Speaker 2>today is Henrik Steesdale. Over the past several decades, Henrick

0:01:27.756 --> 0:01:31.396
<v Speaker 2>has solved lots of big wind power problems. His latest

0:01:31.636 --> 0:01:35.636
<v Speaker 2>is this, how do you build giant floating wind turbines

0:01:35.796 --> 0:01:39.396
<v Speaker 2>cheaply enough that you can have offshore wind power anywhere

0:01:39.436 --> 0:01:42.356
<v Speaker 2>in the world. Henrick got a start in wind power

0:01:42.396 --> 0:01:44.516
<v Speaker 2>back in the nineteen seventies when he was just out

0:01:44.516 --> 0:01:47.196
<v Speaker 2>of high school. The price of oil had gone way up,

0:01:47.476 --> 0:01:49.756
<v Speaker 2>and he wanted to help his parents figure out a

0:01:49.836 --> 0:01:53.436
<v Speaker 2>cheaper source of electricity for their farm. So his dad

0:01:53.716 --> 0:01:55.796
<v Speaker 2>took him up to a small college near the farm

0:01:56.076 --> 0:01:58.116
<v Speaker 2>where a few people were trying to build a wind

0:01:58.156 --> 0:01:59.796
<v Speaker 2>turbine to help power the college.

0:02:00.236 --> 0:02:03.116
<v Speaker 3>So we've end office so that and was fascinating. It

0:02:03.196 --> 0:02:06.476
<v Speaker 3>was fascinating because of, so to speak, the spirit of

0:02:06.516 --> 0:02:10.276
<v Speaker 3>it that they had an issue then they did something

0:02:10.316 --> 0:02:14.956
<v Speaker 3>about it. It was really a sort of intriguing and

0:02:15.276 --> 0:02:19.636
<v Speaker 3>exciting when you when you have this attitude, at least

0:02:19.676 --> 0:02:23.916
<v Speaker 3>the perceived problems are not that big. So when we

0:02:23.956 --> 0:02:26.956
<v Speaker 3>came home from that visit, we immediately went to work

0:02:27.036 --> 0:02:31.796
<v Speaker 3>and built a little rotor that we mounted on a

0:02:32.276 --> 0:02:34.156
<v Speaker 3>water pipe so that you could hold it in your

0:02:34.196 --> 0:02:36.716
<v Speaker 3>hand and then you could go out in the wind

0:02:36.796 --> 0:02:39.516
<v Speaker 3>and have its spin and get a feel. I still

0:02:39.516 --> 0:02:43.196
<v Speaker 3>have it. Actually it's a little more than a meter diameter.

0:02:43.556 --> 0:02:45.436
<v Speaker 2>Okay, and so what is it it's like a metal

0:02:45.476 --> 0:02:48.116
<v Speaker 2>pipe with with with the.

0:02:47.756 --> 0:02:50.636
<v Speaker 3>Arms on it, it looks like a two bladed propeller.

0:02:51.436 --> 0:02:54.756
<v Speaker 2>Okay. And did you have a little welding shop or something.

0:02:54.796 --> 0:02:55.636
<v Speaker 2>How do you even build that?

0:02:56.316 --> 0:02:57.836
<v Speaker 3>No, there was just built out of wood.

0:02:58.116 --> 0:02:58.676
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

0:02:58.996 --> 0:03:03.276
<v Speaker 3>So, and then the shaft was bolted to the wooden

0:03:03.276 --> 0:03:06.076
<v Speaker 3>propeller and then you could take it and go out

0:03:06.076 --> 0:03:08.396
<v Speaker 3>in the wind. And it didn't work very well. And

0:03:08.436 --> 0:03:11.636
<v Speaker 3>then we experiment with the shape of the blade and

0:03:11.716 --> 0:03:15.996
<v Speaker 3>suddenly we got it right. And then it just went mad.

0:03:16.116 --> 0:03:18.396
<v Speaker 3>You know, you went without There was a windy day,

0:03:18.596 --> 0:03:22.156
<v Speaker 3>as many days a windy here, and then it started

0:03:22.236 --> 0:03:24.596
<v Speaker 3>rotating and then it kind of ran away in your

0:03:24.596 --> 0:03:28.516
<v Speaker 3>hand and spupun with many hundred revolutions per minute, about

0:03:28.876 --> 0:03:30.156
<v Speaker 3>six inches from your nose.

0:03:31.036 --> 0:03:32.556
<v Speaker 2>This is an exciting moment.

0:03:33.476 --> 0:03:35.756
<v Speaker 3>It is. I can tell you if you do that,

0:03:36.476 --> 0:03:38.996
<v Speaker 3>you actually shouldn't try this at home, because once you

0:03:39.076 --> 0:03:41.636
<v Speaker 3>do that, then you were hooked for life. So based

0:03:41.636 --> 0:03:43.716
<v Speaker 3>on that, and given that I had some time before

0:03:43.876 --> 0:03:48.476
<v Speaker 3>I was called off for the army, I said, could

0:03:48.476 --> 0:03:49.476
<v Speaker 3>we do something bigger?

0:03:50.076 --> 0:03:52.196
<v Speaker 2>Something bigger, like to generate power.

0:03:52.276 --> 0:03:54.516
<v Speaker 3>It's something bigger, to learn more, but just has an

0:03:54.556 --> 0:03:56.116
<v Speaker 3>experimental device.

0:03:56.036 --> 0:03:57.836
<v Speaker 2>So you're just kind of playing.

0:03:58.036 --> 0:04:00.636
<v Speaker 3>At this point, we were just kind of playing. It

0:04:00.676 --> 0:04:02.836
<v Speaker 3>was mostly me. My dad helped me every now and then,

0:04:02.876 --> 0:04:07.196
<v Speaker 3>but he was working and didn't have much time. So

0:04:07.236 --> 0:04:09.076
<v Speaker 3>what I did was that, since it was just for

0:04:09.316 --> 0:04:14.476
<v Speaker 3>experimental purposes, I built a frame on the farm wagon,

0:04:14.956 --> 0:04:17.036
<v Speaker 3>and then I could run the wagon out in the

0:04:17.036 --> 0:04:20.476
<v Speaker 3>field when it was windy and do experiments with it,

0:04:20.676 --> 0:04:23.396
<v Speaker 3>and then I could take it back into the barn

0:04:23.436 --> 0:04:25.436
<v Speaker 3>again when I was done.

0:04:26.276 --> 0:04:28.276
<v Speaker 2>So this like a wagon that you hitch to the

0:04:28.316 --> 0:04:29.676
<v Speaker 2>back of a tractor or something.

0:04:29.876 --> 0:04:32.436
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, pull it out with a tractor, and then we

0:04:33.676 --> 0:04:36.636
<v Speaker 3>could test it out there. I was able to measure

0:04:36.916 --> 0:04:40.196
<v Speaker 3>that on a windy day, this little rotor could produce

0:04:40.596 --> 0:04:44.156
<v Speaker 3>significantly more electricity than what we used on the farm.

0:04:44.276 --> 0:04:47.516
<v Speaker 3>Then you can take me onto something. And based on that,

0:04:47.596 --> 0:04:50.716
<v Speaker 3>I said, couldn't I build a turbine that should power

0:04:50.756 --> 0:04:52.676
<v Speaker 3>the whole farm even when it was not that windy,

0:04:53.756 --> 0:04:57.396
<v Speaker 3>mounted on a tower and build it genuine wind turbine.

0:04:57.476 --> 0:04:59.996
<v Speaker 3>And that is what I did. I bought a welding

0:05:00.076 --> 0:05:02.796
<v Speaker 3>machine and taught myself to weld, so I could build

0:05:02.836 --> 0:05:06.636
<v Speaker 3>a tower. We bought a lath so that I could

0:05:06.716 --> 0:05:09.676
<v Speaker 3>turn the shaft and so on. At the junk It

0:05:09.756 --> 0:05:12.796
<v Speaker 3>cost us at that time fifteen cents a kidro.

0:05:13.756 --> 0:05:15.476
<v Speaker 2>So you're saying it was at the junkyard. So they

0:05:15.476 --> 0:05:17.596
<v Speaker 2>were selling it like for scrap. When you say fifteen

0:05:17.636 --> 0:05:22.196
<v Speaker 2>cents a killer, they're selling it like by the pound. Essentially, Yes, exactly, fantastic,

0:05:22.916 --> 0:05:24.996
<v Speaker 2>but they worked. You took it home and you plugged

0:05:24.996 --> 0:05:25.876
<v Speaker 2>it in and it worked.

0:05:26.036 --> 0:05:29.476
<v Speaker 3>No, no, no, no, it was from nineteen fourteen. So

0:05:30.316 --> 0:05:33.876
<v Speaker 3>I took it home and made it work. Let's put

0:05:33.956 --> 0:05:36.876
<v Speaker 3>it like that. But once it worked, then I could

0:05:36.956 --> 0:05:40.036
<v Speaker 3>use it for this, for these things. So it all

0:05:40.076 --> 0:05:42.276
<v Speaker 3>worked out, and in seventy eight we were able to

0:05:42.316 --> 0:05:46.156
<v Speaker 3>install the turbine and it ran for thirteen years.

0:05:46.396 --> 0:05:50.956
<v Speaker 2>So you build this tower for your family farm, how

0:05:50.996 --> 0:05:55.356
<v Speaker 2>do you come to license it to this? What it

0:05:55.396 --> 0:05:59.636
<v Speaker 2>was then a you know, local little cream manufacturer vest Us.

0:06:00.676 --> 0:06:04.996
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so it was actually not mighty signed here for

0:06:05.036 --> 0:06:08.756
<v Speaker 3>the family farm. That was licensed, okay, because there was

0:06:10.156 --> 0:06:13.596
<v Speaker 3>something I had welded myself. I'd built the blades myself.

0:06:14.316 --> 0:06:17.836
<v Speaker 3>I had found old equipment at the junk yard and

0:06:17.876 --> 0:06:20.756
<v Speaker 3>so on that was not licenseable. You could not base

0:06:20.796 --> 0:06:21.716
<v Speaker 3>a production.

0:06:22.636 --> 0:06:25.476
<v Speaker 2>You can't license buying an fifty year old lathe and

0:06:25.596 --> 0:06:26.316
<v Speaker 2>fixing it up.

0:06:28.116 --> 0:06:31.716
<v Speaker 3>Ay, that doesn't work. But I happened to meet a

0:06:31.756 --> 0:06:35.396
<v Speaker 3>local blacksmith who was also wind interested, and there were

0:06:35.396 --> 0:06:37.596
<v Speaker 3>a lot of people who were interested in winter at

0:06:37.636 --> 0:06:41.516
<v Speaker 3>the time. And he was not a bookish person. He

0:06:41.556 --> 0:06:44.396
<v Speaker 3>didn't read or write well, but he was a very

0:06:44.476 --> 0:06:48.796
<v Speaker 3>very good craftsman. And then gradually we figured out we

0:06:48.836 --> 0:06:51.156
<v Speaker 3>could work together in the way that I could design

0:06:51.196 --> 0:06:55.316
<v Speaker 3>it for him, and then he could in return do

0:06:55.516 --> 0:06:59.236
<v Speaker 3>some machining for my turbine that I didn't have equipment for.

0:07:00.236 --> 0:07:02.676
<v Speaker 3>So I ended up and he didn't have any money.

0:07:02.836 --> 0:07:05.396
<v Speaker 3>I didn't have any money he wanted. It is still

0:07:05.396 --> 0:07:08.716
<v Speaker 3>done from new parts, because he was already thinking about

0:07:08.836 --> 0:07:12.756
<v Speaker 3>doing it professionally. So we of course had an issue

0:07:12.756 --> 0:07:16.916
<v Speaker 3>how would we get such a thing funded? But then

0:07:16.956 --> 0:07:19.516
<v Speaker 3>I discovered, purely by chance, that there was a new

0:07:20.596 --> 0:07:26.076
<v Speaker 3>sort of subsidy that had been created for inventors within renewables.

0:07:26.876 --> 0:07:30.276
<v Speaker 3>And I wrote to the government body that arranged this,

0:07:30.996 --> 0:07:34.116
<v Speaker 3>and then they actually wrote back and said, we'll send

0:07:34.116 --> 0:07:36.636
<v Speaker 3>over somebody to speak to you, and then a very

0:07:36.716 --> 0:07:39.956
<v Speaker 3>nice person came over spoke with him, and then two

0:07:39.996 --> 0:07:42.556
<v Speaker 3>weeks later I had a check for about ten thousand

0:07:42.596 --> 0:07:45.956
<v Speaker 3>dollars in the mail, and then it was kind of

0:07:46.596 --> 0:07:48.396
<v Speaker 3>now we had the means, Now we could do it.

0:07:48.876 --> 0:07:51.396
<v Speaker 3>So I designed a turbine and he built it, and

0:07:51.436 --> 0:07:53.676
<v Speaker 3>he built it and installed it at his workshop which

0:07:53.756 --> 0:07:57.236
<v Speaker 3>was out in the countryside, and it worked, and then

0:07:57.276 --> 0:08:01.156
<v Speaker 3>we kind of said, could be there actually something here

0:08:01.196 --> 0:08:05.916
<v Speaker 3>that really could become a business. So purely by chance,

0:08:06.796 --> 0:08:12.276
<v Speaker 3>a friend of ours was it. He had the use

0:08:12.316 --> 0:08:14.956
<v Speaker 3>of a small plane and was flying, I think mostly

0:08:14.956 --> 0:08:18.596
<v Speaker 3>for pleasure, and he had flown over Vests and had

0:08:18.636 --> 0:08:21.436
<v Speaker 3>seen that they had a wind turbine installed. It was

0:08:21.436 --> 0:08:25.036
<v Speaker 3>not operating, but one could see that they were interested

0:08:25.036 --> 0:08:27.196
<v Speaker 3>in wind, otherwise they wouldn't be doing.

0:08:26.996 --> 0:08:29.716
<v Speaker 2>This, just to be clear. He'd flown over the sort

0:08:29.716 --> 0:08:34.036
<v Speaker 2>of headquarters of this local company called Vestes, Okay.

0:08:34.836 --> 0:08:37.396
<v Speaker 3>And then I basically picked up the phone and called

0:08:37.436 --> 0:08:40.076
<v Speaker 3>them and said, we know that you're interested in wind,

0:08:40.076 --> 0:08:44.196
<v Speaker 3>shouldn't you get a license to a proper turbine? Which

0:08:44.356 --> 0:08:47.596
<v Speaker 3>was a little cheeky, if you can say, but they

0:08:47.636 --> 0:08:51.156
<v Speaker 3>were interesting enough to come over and have coffee.

0:08:51.316 --> 0:08:53.916
<v Speaker 2>They were a company that had made farm equipment and

0:08:54.036 --> 0:08:56.476
<v Speaker 2>cranes and that sort of thing.

0:08:55.356 --> 0:08:59.876
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, there were a couple of hundred people and

0:09:00.716 --> 0:09:03.356
<v Speaker 3>they were interested. So we made a deal whereby they

0:09:03.356 --> 0:09:08.356
<v Speaker 3>would pay a certain amount for each turbine. And that's

0:09:08.356 --> 0:09:10.676
<v Speaker 3>how they got started in wind. That was biting out

0:09:10.676 --> 0:09:14.516
<v Speaker 3>this license and starting to do the production of our machine.

0:09:14.596 --> 0:09:19.316
<v Speaker 2>And Vestas became a giant, right, a global giant in

0:09:19.396 --> 0:09:20.476
<v Speaker 2>making wind turbines.

0:09:20.876 --> 0:09:24.436
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, they very quickly, they were, They were really good.

0:09:24.916 --> 0:09:28.796
<v Speaker 3>They very quickly got a significant share of the market

0:09:28.836 --> 0:09:33.796
<v Speaker 3>here and Denmark. And when then the California market started

0:09:33.836 --> 0:09:39.596
<v Speaker 3>booming around nineteen eighty three due to some test credit

0:09:39.796 --> 0:09:44.156
<v Speaker 3>arrangements that were implemented to motivate people to invest in wind,

0:09:45.236 --> 0:09:47.396
<v Speaker 3>they were very well positioned to go in and take

0:09:48.076 --> 0:09:50.436
<v Speaker 3>a good part of that market. And that is what

0:09:50.476 --> 0:09:50.796
<v Speaker 3>they did.

0:09:50.796 --> 0:09:53.156
<v Speaker 2>And I remember I happened to grow up in California

0:09:53.236 --> 0:09:57.316
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen eighties, and I remember there was a

0:09:57.356 --> 0:09:59.716
<v Speaker 2>wind farm, a bunch of wind turbines you would see

0:10:00.156 --> 0:10:03.916
<v Speaker 2>east of San Francisco when we were driving to San Francisco.

0:10:04.516 --> 0:10:08.356
<v Speaker 2>Were those based on your design? Those those turbines.

0:10:08.356 --> 0:10:13.676
<v Speaker 3>There may have been forty different manufacturers, so you may

0:10:13.716 --> 0:10:16.396
<v Speaker 3>well have seen some of our turbines, and you would

0:10:16.396 --> 0:10:19.476
<v Speaker 3>surely have seen a wide rain sell of other turbines

0:10:20.516 --> 0:10:23.716
<v Speaker 3>if they were running and operating every day. There would

0:10:23.716 --> 0:10:24.876
<v Speaker 3>have been hours just.

0:10:24.876 --> 0:10:27.876
<v Speaker 2>Joking how ones that were spinning were the ones that.

0:10:27.796 --> 0:10:32.636
<v Speaker 3>You built the ones who are spinning years.

0:10:33.756 --> 0:10:36.716
<v Speaker 2>Henrik worked with Vestas for several years. He helped put

0:10:36.716 --> 0:10:38.476
<v Speaker 2>the company on a path to become one of the

0:10:38.516 --> 0:10:42.516
<v Speaker 2>biggest wind companies in the world. Today, Vesta sells around

0:10:42.516 --> 0:10:45.796
<v Speaker 2>fifteen billion dollars worth of turbines every year. He went

0:10:45.796 --> 0:10:48.196
<v Speaker 2>on to work for another wind company, where he helped

0:10:48.236 --> 0:10:51.956
<v Speaker 2>build the world's first offshore wind turbines in the early

0:10:52.036 --> 0:10:56.036
<v Speaker 2>nineteen nineties. He retired in twenty fourteen, and then he

0:10:56.276 --> 0:10:59.956
<v Speaker 2>unretired in twenty sixteen and started his own company. And

0:10:59.996 --> 0:11:03.076
<v Speaker 2>today he's still at the frontier of wind power, trying

0:11:03.076 --> 0:11:04.796
<v Speaker 2>to solve a new set of problems.

0:11:05.236 --> 0:11:13.756
<v Speaker 1>That's after the break. Now back to the show.

0:11:14.396 --> 0:11:17.476
<v Speaker 2>When Henrik retired in twenty fourteen, he thought he'd go

0:11:17.516 --> 0:11:19.676
<v Speaker 2>back to his roots as a tinkerer, but at a

0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:22.276
<v Speaker 2>bigger scale. He didn't want to work for a company.

0:11:22.316 --> 0:11:24.436
<v Speaker 2>He didn't want to run a company, but he wanted

0:11:24.436 --> 0:11:28.076
<v Speaker 2>to keep working on offshore wind offshore wind is great.

0:11:28.476 --> 0:11:31.276
<v Speaker 2>You get nice steady winds out in the ocean. You

0:11:31.316 --> 0:11:33.516
<v Speaker 2>can put the turbines out of sight in the sea,

0:11:33.716 --> 0:11:37.156
<v Speaker 2>but still relatively close to dense populations on the coast.

0:11:37.876 --> 0:11:40.756
<v Speaker 2>But there was this big problem with offshore wind that

0:11:40.876 --> 0:11:44.276
<v Speaker 2>Henrik wanted to help solve. Offshore wind turbines are built

0:11:44.276 --> 0:11:46.956
<v Speaker 2>on platforms that have to sit on the ocean floor,

0:11:47.436 --> 0:11:49.596
<v Speaker 2>and that limits where you can put them.

0:11:49.876 --> 0:11:52.836
<v Speaker 3>They can't go out to maybe sixty meters water deips,

0:11:53.436 --> 0:11:56.716
<v Speaker 3>but most of the world has much deeper waters than

0:11:56.796 --> 0:11:59.356
<v Speaker 3>sixty meters. We have been able to build up a

0:11:59.436 --> 0:12:02.716
<v Speaker 3>very big offshore wind industry in northwestern Europe because the

0:12:02.756 --> 0:12:06.996
<v Speaker 3>north sea dead water is quite shallow and you can

0:12:07.036 --> 0:12:09.396
<v Speaker 3>build very large offshore wind farms out there. We have

0:12:09.476 --> 0:12:12.516
<v Speaker 3>built large offshore wind farms, but most of the worlds

0:12:12.516 --> 0:12:14.676
<v Speaker 3>you can't do that because it gets too deep.

0:12:14.916 --> 0:12:18.316
<v Speaker 2>There is a potential solution to this, build turbines on

0:12:18.516 --> 0:12:21.676
<v Speaker 2>floating platforms. If you can do that, you could have

0:12:21.756 --> 0:12:24.916
<v Speaker 2>offshore wind basically off of any coast in the world.

0:12:25.236 --> 0:12:27.716
<v Speaker 2>It would be amazing. People have been working on this

0:12:27.796 --> 0:12:31.596
<v Speaker 2>problem for years, but it's hard. Offshore wind turbines are gigantic,

0:12:31.876 --> 0:12:35.196
<v Speaker 2>like almost as tall as the Eiffel Tower. And when

0:12:35.236 --> 0:12:38.156
<v Speaker 2>Henrik looked at the work people were doing on floating

0:12:38.156 --> 0:12:41.516
<v Speaker 2>wind and reflected back on his decades in the wind business,

0:12:41.796 --> 0:12:45.436
<v Speaker 2>he saw this one problem in particular, people were not

0:12:45.596 --> 0:12:49.516
<v Speaker 2>paying enough attention to making floating wind turbines cheap enough

0:12:49.756 --> 0:12:50.956
<v Speaker 2>to be widely adopted.

0:12:52.356 --> 0:12:54.996
<v Speaker 3>I was just slightly annoyed that they were not doing

0:12:55.036 --> 0:12:59.556
<v Speaker 3>it in an industrial manner. Industrialization is the way that

0:12:59.596 --> 0:13:02.556
<v Speaker 3>things get to be cheap a hah. So wind started

0:13:02.636 --> 0:13:06.676
<v Speaker 3>out as being more costly than fossil fuels. Now it

0:13:06.756 --> 0:13:10.076
<v Speaker 3>is cheaper than fossil fuels. Solar powers the same will

0:13:10.236 --> 0:13:12.756
<v Speaker 3>was very costly twenty years ago. Now it's much cheaper

0:13:12.796 --> 0:13:15.556
<v Speaker 3>than fossil fuels. And there you could of course ask

0:13:15.636 --> 0:13:19.516
<v Speaker 3>yourself how what is the difference? And it's a mixture

0:13:19.716 --> 0:13:24.236
<v Speaker 3>of technology development that we got better at designing the stuff,

0:13:24.796 --> 0:13:28.276
<v Speaker 3>but much more importantly that we got professional in the

0:13:28.356 --> 0:13:32.356
<v Speaker 3>manufacturing of the equipment. So it was made in syrup.

0:13:32.396 --> 0:13:36.636
<v Speaker 2>Essentially economies of scale rather than crafts, people building them

0:13:36.676 --> 0:13:39.876
<v Speaker 2>one by one, figuring out how to exactly use factory

0:13:39.956 --> 0:13:41.956
<v Speaker 2>mass production to bring down costs.

0:13:42.156 --> 0:13:44.756
<v Speaker 3>Yes, as you and I city and talk. I have

0:13:44.876 --> 0:13:48.196
<v Speaker 3>an iPhone. I think I paid five hundred dollars for it.

0:13:48.196 --> 0:13:50.556
<v Speaker 3>It has, you know, as people said, more computing power

0:13:50.556 --> 0:13:53.756
<v Speaker 3>than nasahead when they sent people to the Moon. It's

0:13:53.796 --> 0:13:57.116
<v Speaker 3>a small video camera, it can show films, it can

0:13:57.156 --> 0:13:59.916
<v Speaker 3>do everything. I paid five hundred dollars for it. If

0:13:59.916 --> 0:14:02.036
<v Speaker 3>I was going to get the only one in the world,

0:14:02.356 --> 0:14:05.356
<v Speaker 3>I'll probably pay fifty million. But I pay only five

0:14:05.396 --> 0:14:07.836
<v Speaker 3>hundred dollars because a million or millions are.

0:14:07.716 --> 0:14:11.156
<v Speaker 2>Made, hundreds of millions, I'm sure. Yeah. So that's the

0:14:11.236 --> 0:14:14.996
<v Speaker 2>problem with floating offshore wind turbines is they're making them

0:14:14.996 --> 0:14:18.436
<v Speaker 2>one at a time, and as a result, they're extraordinarily expensive,

0:14:18.476 --> 0:14:19.676
<v Speaker 2>prohibitively expensive.

0:14:20.156 --> 0:14:23.116
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and I thought, maybe I could do something that

0:14:23.236 --> 0:14:25.996
<v Speaker 3>was suited for cereal production. That's what I don't want

0:14:26.036 --> 0:14:27.916
<v Speaker 3>to run a company make it. Maybe I could make

0:14:27.956 --> 0:14:30.236
<v Speaker 3>something that I just kind of presented to the world

0:14:30.316 --> 0:14:32.556
<v Speaker 3>and say, here has some good ideas, there's a design,

0:14:32.796 --> 0:14:35.436
<v Speaker 3>go out and do it. So that's what I spent

0:14:35.476 --> 0:14:38.836
<v Speaker 3>the first years of my retirement on was to develop

0:14:38.916 --> 0:14:41.036
<v Speaker 3>things like that. At the end of the day, I

0:14:41.036 --> 0:14:43.676
<v Speaker 3>had to realize that that would not work because they

0:14:43.716 --> 0:14:46.356
<v Speaker 3>did not want something that was, so to speak, open source.

0:14:46.756 --> 0:14:48.796
<v Speaker 2>You were just trying to make a design that anybody

0:14:48.796 --> 0:14:49.196
<v Speaker 2>could use.

0:14:49.236 --> 0:14:53.436
<v Speaker 3>The big developers, the people actually making wind farms happen,

0:14:54.916 --> 0:14:57.236
<v Speaker 3>they did not want something that was in the open

0:14:57.276 --> 0:15:00.676
<v Speaker 3>source and was a free fall. They wanted there firm

0:15:00.716 --> 0:15:03.476
<v Speaker 3>and fixed design that had a cost associated with it.

0:15:04.636 --> 0:15:06.436
<v Speaker 3>And that meant that in the end I had to

0:15:06.516 --> 0:15:08.636
<v Speaker 3>run a company. I had to establish a company.

0:15:09.196 --> 0:15:12.476
<v Speaker 2>What I did, what's happening with the floating wind project?

0:15:13.476 --> 0:15:16.236
<v Speaker 3>That's going well. We set out with this idea of

0:15:16.356 --> 0:15:21.076
<v Speaker 3>industrializing so that we simply took up the challenge of

0:15:21.196 --> 0:15:26.756
<v Speaker 3>making a very big steel structure in a factory. The

0:15:26.796 --> 0:15:29.116
<v Speaker 3>wind ship and itself is a very big steel structure.

0:15:29.516 --> 0:15:34.076
<v Speaker 3>Each blade is significantly longer than a football field. And

0:15:34.116 --> 0:15:36.556
<v Speaker 3>there could say, how can you ever build such a

0:15:36.556 --> 0:15:39.716
<v Speaker 3>big machine two hundred and fifty meters tall in a factory,

0:15:39.876 --> 0:15:42.756
<v Speaker 3>And the answer is you don't. You build the components

0:15:43.156 --> 0:15:45.436
<v Speaker 3>and then you just put it together out in the field.

0:15:46.556 --> 0:15:49.516
<v Speaker 3>And we simply took inspiration from that saying, okay, what

0:15:49.636 --> 0:15:51.916
<v Speaker 3>we have been doing there, and myself had the good

0:15:51.996 --> 0:15:55.396
<v Speaker 3>luck to be part of that, was to figure out

0:15:55.436 --> 0:15:57.356
<v Speaker 3>a way to do big structures but still have the

0:15:57.396 --> 0:16:00.916
<v Speaker 3>benefit of mass production. Let's use that thinking also for

0:16:00.996 --> 0:16:03.636
<v Speaker 3>the floating foundation. So that's what we have done. All

0:16:03.676 --> 0:16:06.276
<v Speaker 3>the components are made in a factory. We have then

0:16:06.316 --> 0:16:09.076
<v Speaker 3>figured out a way to connect them in the port

0:16:09.236 --> 0:16:13.196
<v Speaker 3>so that they actually end up constructing a hole floating structure.

0:16:13.356 --> 0:16:16.316
<v Speaker 3>But all the components were made in a factory benefiting

0:16:16.356 --> 0:16:20.796
<v Speaker 3>from this mass production. So we have had a good

0:16:20.876 --> 0:16:26.396
<v Speaker 3>luck to have some big power companies fund the project

0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:29.756
<v Speaker 3>for us. They're not co owners of the company, but

0:16:29.836 --> 0:16:33.156
<v Speaker 3>they had us pay for the prototype. So we built

0:16:33.156 --> 0:16:35.836
<v Speaker 3>the components in twenty and launched it in twenty one

0:16:35.916 --> 0:16:39.196
<v Speaker 3>and it has been operating since then off the coast

0:16:39.236 --> 0:16:39.876
<v Speaker 3>of Norway.

0:16:40.516 --> 0:16:43.156
<v Speaker 2>Right now, it's floating out in the sea, spinning and

0:16:43.196 --> 0:16:44.796
<v Speaker 2>generating power even as we speak.

0:16:44.916 --> 0:16:48.716
<v Speaker 3>Yes, as you and I are sitting here talking, is

0:16:48.756 --> 0:16:51.316
<v Speaker 3>out in the sea at two hundred meters water depths

0:16:52.036 --> 0:16:56.116
<v Speaker 3>producing today on the order of three make wads of

0:16:56.156 --> 0:17:00.276
<v Speaker 3>power all the time. It powers something like a thousand households.

0:17:00.676 --> 0:17:01.556
<v Speaker 3>As you and I sit.

0:17:01.476 --> 0:17:04.676
<v Speaker 2>Here and talk, your goal with the project was to

0:17:04.676 --> 0:17:07.316
<v Speaker 2>get to mass production, right is that happening?

0:17:07.396 --> 0:17:11.636
<v Speaker 3>Yes, off your wind is and that goes aso for

0:17:11.676 --> 0:17:16.716
<v Speaker 3>floating is somewhat burdened with very long planning permission times.

0:17:17.556 --> 0:17:20.716
<v Speaker 3>So what we're doing now is we're building a small

0:17:21.476 --> 0:17:24.996
<v Speaker 3>demo project with a number of turbines, but much larger

0:17:25.036 --> 0:17:28.676
<v Speaker 3>than the first one. That's a really big machine, two

0:17:28.756 --> 0:17:32.156
<v Speaker 3>hundred and thirty six meters diameter, and it'll go off

0:17:32.236 --> 0:17:35.596
<v Speaker 3>the north coast of Scotland. Hope to get it out

0:17:35.836 --> 0:17:38.956
<v Speaker 3>in a couple of years. We have started welding on it.

0:17:38.836 --> 0:17:41.996
<v Speaker 2>Now, So it's a very long time that you have

0:17:42.076 --> 0:17:44.796
<v Speaker 2>been doing this now, and you know, you started when

0:17:44.796 --> 0:17:47.196
<v Speaker 2>there was essentially no wind industry and now it is

0:17:47.236 --> 0:17:52.556
<v Speaker 2>this giant, international, billion dollar industry. And I'm curious, if

0:17:52.596 --> 0:17:54.516
<v Speaker 2>you step back from that, do you feel like you

0:17:54.636 --> 0:17:58.516
<v Speaker 2>have some insight into kind of how to make big

0:17:59.036 --> 0:18:00.956
<v Speaker 2>industrial change in the world.

0:18:04.916 --> 0:18:09.876
<v Speaker 3>And good question. The conditions when we created the wind

0:18:09.916 --> 0:18:15.156
<v Speaker 3>industry were very favorable. There was a big poor from society.

0:18:15.276 --> 0:18:19.436
<v Speaker 3>Society wanted things to happen. There was a very big

0:18:19.476 --> 0:18:22.036
<v Speaker 3>support from the government sort of mentally and also so

0:18:22.036 --> 0:18:26.596
<v Speaker 3>cunderstand economically for people to establish things, and that way

0:18:27.956 --> 0:18:30.956
<v Speaker 3>we hit, without knowing it at the time, as sweet

0:18:30.996 --> 0:18:34.996
<v Speaker 3>spot of making such a thing happen. But I learned

0:18:35.036 --> 0:18:38.276
<v Speaker 3>a lot about what it takes to make things happen,

0:18:38.716 --> 0:18:41.676
<v Speaker 3>and to a very last extent, it's about a motivation

0:18:41.836 --> 0:18:45.876
<v Speaker 3>from service society, and then it's a matter of getting

0:18:45.916 --> 0:18:50.396
<v Speaker 3>what we call frame conditions right, the surroundings of what

0:18:50.436 --> 0:18:53.516
<v Speaker 3>you do need to be right for the development. Then

0:18:53.556 --> 0:18:55.236
<v Speaker 3>you can essentially make anything happen.

0:18:58.076 --> 0:19:00.076
<v Speaker 1>We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round.

0:19:07.276 --> 0:19:08.916
<v Speaker 1>Now it's time for the lightning round.

0:19:09.276 --> 0:19:11.516
<v Speaker 2>So I'm just going to ask you a bunch of questions.

0:19:11.556 --> 0:19:13.796
<v Speaker 2>Now it's sort of fast and we can kind of

0:19:13.876 --> 0:19:17.156
<v Speaker 2>run through them. I have a couple of Denmark questions

0:19:17.156 --> 0:19:18.916
<v Speaker 2>for you. What's one thing I should do if I

0:19:18.956 --> 0:19:20.076
<v Speaker 2>go to Jutland.

0:19:20.676 --> 0:19:25.476
<v Speaker 3>If you go as a private individual, Yeah, again, good question.

0:19:25.596 --> 0:19:28.716
<v Speaker 3>Go to the west coast and visit some of the

0:19:28.756 --> 0:19:32.956
<v Speaker 3>small port cities or port towns and see how life

0:19:32.996 --> 0:19:36.276
<v Speaker 3>is there. It's very different from big city life. If

0:19:36.316 --> 0:19:39.556
<v Speaker 3>you are traveling in a more professional manner, make sure

0:19:39.596 --> 0:19:42.316
<v Speaker 3>to go and visit the wind turbine factory or a

0:19:42.396 --> 0:19:45.316
<v Speaker 3>steel tower factory. It is they are in the middle

0:19:45.356 --> 0:19:49.596
<v Speaker 3>of nowhere, in the flat countryside and it's super exciting.

0:19:50.516 --> 0:19:52.636
<v Speaker 2>I think if I were there on vacation, I might

0:19:52.676 --> 0:19:54.516
<v Speaker 2>still want to go to the wind turbine.

0:19:54.196 --> 0:19:55.236
<v Speaker 3>Factory, Yes you should.

0:19:55.676 --> 0:19:59.636
<v Speaker 2>Yes, are Vikings overrated or underrated?

0:20:03.796 --> 0:20:07.996
<v Speaker 3>I think most of us are somewhat embarrassed about having

0:20:08.076 --> 0:20:15.036
<v Speaker 3>your national identity resting on plunder and murder. I think

0:20:15.076 --> 0:20:19.396
<v Speaker 3>that they were. They were extraordinarily sharp when it came

0:20:19.436 --> 0:20:23.996
<v Speaker 3>to their tools, So they made these wonderful ships that

0:20:24.116 --> 0:20:26.876
<v Speaker 3>could go anywhere. They went as far as you know,

0:20:27.796 --> 0:20:32.796
<v Speaker 3>up the big Russian rivers and down to Constantinople.

0:20:31.996 --> 0:20:35.356
<v Speaker 2>And to North America and America in.

0:20:35.596 --> 0:20:39.556
<v Speaker 3>An open boat. So I think that for their skills

0:20:40.876 --> 0:20:44.516
<v Speaker 3>they are definitely not overrated. For their human qualities, I

0:20:44.636 --> 0:20:50.196
<v Speaker 3>think that sometimes there are a few sort of compassionate elements.

0:20:49.876 --> 0:20:56.396
<v Speaker 2>Lacking underrated as engineers, overrated as humanists.

0:20:56.636 --> 0:20:59.196
<v Speaker 3>Perhaps, yes, that could be a good way to put it.

0:20:59.836 --> 0:21:02.716
<v Speaker 2>If everything goes well, what problem will you be trying

0:21:02.756 --> 0:21:04.276
<v Speaker 2>to solve in say, five.

0:21:04.196 --> 0:21:10.356
<v Speaker 3>Years, if everything goes well. My biggest personal ambition is

0:21:10.396 --> 0:21:14.756
<v Speaker 3>to make a difference on the climate when it comes

0:21:14.796 --> 0:21:20.396
<v Speaker 3>to implementation. So that's actually not an engineering task. That's

0:21:20.436 --> 0:21:24.956
<v Speaker 3>more about trying to solve this conundrum that everybody knows

0:21:25.556 --> 0:21:29.436
<v Speaker 3>what needs to be done for the green transition. It

0:21:29.516 --> 0:21:32.556
<v Speaker 3>can't go too fast. It is going much too slow.

0:21:33.476 --> 0:21:36.076
<v Speaker 3>How do you make that happen? And if I could

0:21:36.156 --> 0:21:39.036
<v Speaker 3>in five years time say there are things that happened

0:21:39.076 --> 0:21:42.516
<v Speaker 3>because of our efforts that wouldn't always have happened, that is,

0:21:42.556 --> 0:21:44.196
<v Speaker 3>of course, would be a fantastic thing.

0:21:45.196 --> 0:21:48.116
<v Speaker 2>What's one piece of advice you'd give to someone trying

0:21:48.156 --> 0:21:49.276
<v Speaker 2>to solve a hard problem.

0:21:50.516 --> 0:21:53.156
<v Speaker 3>I think that the most important thing is that you

0:21:53.236 --> 0:21:59.196
<v Speaker 3>are not seduced by your own rhetoric. The most important

0:21:59.236 --> 0:22:02.276
<v Speaker 3>thing when you're developing new stuff is to be honest,

0:22:02.596 --> 0:22:07.236
<v Speaker 3>not only about the positive prospects, but also about the challenges.

0:22:07.356 --> 0:22:10.836
<v Speaker 3>You should not fool yourself with false oaps. And as

0:22:10.836 --> 0:22:16.036
<v Speaker 3>somebody also said, persistence is the biggest virtue. Persistence in

0:22:16.116 --> 0:22:19.116
<v Speaker 3>the face of adversity which will surely come.

0:22:24.876 --> 0:22:30.516
<v Speaker 4>Henrik Steesdale's company is called Stevesdale Makes Sense. Today's show

0:22:30.716 --> 0:22:33.636
<v Speaker 4>was produced by dath Russello. It was edited by Sarah

0:22:33.716 --> 0:22:37.516
<v Speaker 4>Nix and engineered by Amanda Kwong. You can email us

0:22:37.556 --> 0:22:40.196
<v Speaker 4>at problem at Pushkin dot fm, or you can find

0:22:40.196 --> 0:22:43.636
<v Speaker 4>me on Twitter at Jacob Goldstein. I'm Jacob Goldstein and

0:22:43.636 --> 0:22:45.516
<v Speaker 4>we'll be back next week with another episode.

0:22:45.516 --> 0:22:54.316
<v Speaker 1>Of what's your problem,