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Speaker 1: Alsome Media.

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Speaker 2: Ah, Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about

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Speaker 2: the very worst people in all of history. I'm Robert Evans,

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Speaker 2: and those of you watching this will notice those of

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Speaker 2: you listening shouldn't notice shit that I'm recording in a

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Speaker 2: different location. Today's. Instead of being in my dank basement

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Speaker 2: in Portland, Oregon, I am in a house in the

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Speaker 2: French Quarter of New Orleans, the city that never sleeps,

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Speaker 2: the Big Apple. Anyway, here to not be in New

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Speaker 2: Orleans with me, but here to podcast with me the

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Speaker 2: great Gabe Dunn. Welcome to the show, Gabe.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: As I said before, I'm so excited, probably too excited.

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Speaker 3: I am a big fan of you guys.

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Speaker 4: I would listen to you overnight at my warehouse job

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Speaker 4: for hours and hours, and then I would get home

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Speaker 4: and realize that I had only heard your voices for

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Speaker 4: eight hours.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that actually happens to Sophie and I sometimes too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like, sometimes the one I made this,

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Speaker 1: I said this is a joke to somebody the other day,

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Speaker 1: and then then I realized it wasn't a joke. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: I'll think things, but instead of it being in my voice,

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Speaker 1: it's in Roberts.

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Speaker 3: Wow, you've melted. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And when I'm in a party and he's like, hey, Robert,

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Speaker 2: do you want to shoot this mystery powder uh into

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Speaker 2: you know, your your veins, and I'll be like, I'll

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Speaker 2: hear Sophie's voice saying, yes, Robert, I think you should. Don't.

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Speaker 2: Don't test it, don't test it at all, don't take

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Speaker 2: any precautions. Just inject anything you find into your body.

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Speaker 4: Thank you well in New Orleans. That's going to be

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Speaker 4: thank you in New Orleans.

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Speaker 2: It is it is. I mean, you know, Sophie's motto

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Speaker 2: is live Moss. Taco Bell actually stole it from her.

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Speaker 2: The lawsuit is ongoing. Wow, I believe it low key

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Speaker 2: with things here at the top, I would love, I

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Speaker 2: was gonna say, I would love to suit Taco Bell.

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Speaker 2: Nobody could give moss.

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Speaker 1: But I think what Robert was saying is, Gabe, do

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Speaker 1: you have any pluggables you want to plug up top here?

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Speaker 1: Want to let the audience know who you are because

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Speaker 1: this is your this is your first time of bastards.

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Speaker 3: It is.

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Speaker 4: Believe me, I would have like, if I had been

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Speaker 4: on it before, I would have been like, I can't

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Speaker 4: come back because my life has peaked. I am a writer,

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Speaker 4: I am an activist out of LA so I do

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Speaker 4: a lot of anti ice on the ground stuff. My

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Speaker 4: life got taken over by it in June when the

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Speaker 4: National Guard invaded. So that, and then I do a

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Speaker 4: fun time show called Best Gabe Ever, which is a

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Speaker 4: spin off of Just Between Us, the show I've been

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Speaker 4: doing for like twelve years. And then I have a

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Speaker 4: substack called A Thousand Natural Shocks and a related podcast

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Speaker 4: called A Thousand Natural Shocks that used to be called

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Speaker 4: Bad with Money.

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Speaker 3: But then the world.

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Speaker 4: Financial advice became even more irrelevant than it already was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think the best you do, you know,

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Speaker 2: So I don't know, try to have money, do your best, ye.

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Speaker 4: I mean truly, I like tried to girl boss by

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Speaker 4: way to whatever, and then it just ended up being

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Speaker 4: I don't know, buried in the ground.

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Speaker 3: Turn it into gold blocks.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how to help you.

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Speaker 2: You're talking about anti ice activism in LA and I've

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Speaker 2: been thinking about a surface level aspect of this for

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Speaker 2: a while, which is in Seattle and then the lesser

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Speaker 2: extentt in Oregon during the twenty twenty protests, A major

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Speaker 2: symbol of like the protests in those cities were, especially

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Speaker 2: Seattle was the use of umbrellas, And it was kind

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Speaker 2: of a significant thing because even though it rains all

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Speaker 2: the time in the PNW, people don't use umbrellas here.

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Speaker 2: Like the fastest way to tell someone is not from

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Speaker 2: here or it is not a resident is that they're

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Speaker 2: using a fucking umbrella. And so there was all sorts

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Speaker 2: of like graffiti and Seattle during you know, the height

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Speaker 2: of the protest that was like we never needed umbrellas

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Speaker 2: before because we never saw a real storm. And anyway,

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Speaker 2: I think there's something, there's some there's some good bit

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Speaker 2: in like Los Angeles never had to deal with ice

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Speaker 2: before because it's La So now we have to figure

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Speaker 2: out something.

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Speaker 4: We also, well they have those signs that are like

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Speaker 4: California melts ice.

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Speaker 2: You know, right, it does. That's actually a major problem

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Speaker 2: that we have here, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And we also I thought you were going to say,

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Speaker 4: because we've been using umbrellas to block stuff, and I

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Speaker 4: think in California people are buying umbrellas for the first time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not a city that had a lot of utility

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Speaker 2: for umbrella owners.

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Speaker 4: They go, where is the car culture and like where

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Speaker 4: Where do we even buy umbrellas?

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Speaker 3: Is that? Is that? A? Is that at the supermarket?

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Speaker 3: Where do you get umbrellas?

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Speaker 1: I grew up in La I don't remember ever having

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Speaker 1: an umbrella.

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Speaker 2: So on an umbrella, Michael, how much could it cost?

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Speaker 2: One thousand dollars?

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Speaker 3: That's the people in Beverly Hills.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, So Gabe, it's probably time we get to

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Speaker 2: the actual focus of our episode. This is a guy

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Speaker 2: I don't think you have heard of. It's a guy

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Speaker 2: I had heard of before I started doing research on this.

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Speaker 3: Love it.

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Speaker 2: The episode title that I've got working is called The

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Speaker 2: Real Doctor Sleep, which is the title entirely because I'm

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Speaker 2: pretty sure Stephen King wrote a novel called Doctor Sleep.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what it's about. I've certainly never read it.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it has anything to do with our episode.

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Speaker 2: And it's a bad joke to make because I don't

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Speaker 2: know anything about the Stephen King novel. But I did it,

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Speaker 2: and I.

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Speaker 3: Can't take his son wrote I think his son.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe, But you know that.

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Speaker 4: When you're a neo baby, you have to do exactly

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Speaker 4: what your parents did.

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Speaker 2: Well that said, I can also imagine a Stephen King

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Speaker 2: Neppo baby, just being Stephen King writing books for his

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Speaker 2: kid and pretending they're his kid's book. He has time,

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Speaker 2: he can put out five or six extra books a year.

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Speaker 2: That's nothing. That's like three hours of work for Stephen King.

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Speaker 4: You're imagining like you're imagining a kid, like you're imagining

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Speaker 4: a ten year old, and Stephen King's writing for him.

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Speaker 4: But I'm like, okay, so he's a forty five year

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Speaker 4: old man and Stephen King is still writing his books

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Speaker 4: for him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course, of course, as long as he's alive,

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Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, So obviously Behind the Bastards is a podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm not complaining, but it takes a lot of work, right,

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Speaker 2: These these are generally eight to ten thousand words scripts

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Speaker 2: every week. I average reading probably one to one and

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Speaker 2: a half books a week, sometimes two books a week

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Speaker 2: for doing like research for these episodes. And that's all

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Speaker 2: year round, you know, fifty some weeks out of the year.

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Speaker 2: The Epstein four parters that we just did, thankfully didn't

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Speaker 2: require me to go through books, because that does take

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Speaker 2: a lot of extra time. But I spend hours trawling

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Speaker 2: through the Epstein archives and hours more reading everyone else's

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Speaker 2: coverage of what's in there. Then I had to write

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Speaker 2: like sixteen thousand words on the motherfucker. So there's a

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Speaker 2: lot to do, which is why I appreciate it whenever.

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Speaker 2: Fans of the show are so good to suggest episode

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Speaker 2: topics on the mega thread and the Behind the Bastards subreddit,

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Speaker 2: because a lot of people will be like, you know, oh,

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Speaker 2: I want to when are we finally gonna get the

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Speaker 2: MAO episodes? Or you should you Steven Miller, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: we'll get to all the big guys. Those guys do

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Speaker 2: require a lot of work. What I really like from

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Speaker 2: the episode suggestions is that people often help me find

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Speaker 2: subjects who are really interesting and really fun to hear about,

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Speaker 2: but they're also like kind of obscure and there's not

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Speaker 2: a ton written about them, which means I can read

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Speaker 2: everything written about them in the space of a couple

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Speaker 2: of days, which is a lot lower research burden to me.

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Speaker 2: And that's the kind of episode that we've got here.

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Speaker 2: So I first off, I want to thank the admins

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Speaker 2: of the subreddit for making the episode suggestion mega thread

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Speaker 2: that I asked about during the Q and A episodes,

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Speaker 2: because that came in handy. This week, somebody posted an

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Speaker 2: unusually detailed thread user Captain Ravioli about an Australian black

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Speaker 2: doctor who killed a shitload of people by making them

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Speaker 2: sleep themselves to death. We are talking about Australia's doctor

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Speaker 2: sleep Gabe. Have you heard of this story at all?

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Speaker 4: I have not, but so darkly my first thought was like,

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Speaker 4: how is that bad?

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Speaker 2: How is that it is? This is an interesting quite

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Speaker 2: both in that first art's in a good place. It's

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Speaker 2: not a quack medical treatment that starts quack. It starts

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Speaker 2: with some real doctors and scientists being like, shit, this

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Speaker 2: might help this, like might be a therapy that actually

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Speaker 2: does something, and then it winds up not working. But

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Speaker 2: this guy decides to make it his entire life and

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Speaker 2: he gets a lot of people killed. But it is this.

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Speaker 2: When I explain how this is supposed to work, you're

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Speaker 2: going to be like, well, shit, I want to try that.

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Speaker 3: That's the problem.

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Speaker 4: And that's and that's ultimately the dark humor of my

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Speaker 4: whole thing is I'm like, oh, tell me more, what

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Speaker 4: did he use?

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Speaker 3: That's that's so bad?

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Speaker 2: I don't have to be on lie for a week?

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Speaker 3: Shit, yeah, exactly. And how gentle is to sleep? Okay,

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: Not We will talk about all this, but first let's

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Speaker 2: talk about our bastard. Let's introduce this motherfucker to the

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Speaker 2: audience and to the Gabe. Harry Richard Bailey was born

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Speaker 2: on October twenty ninth, nineteen twenty two, in Picton, New

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Speaker 2: South Wales, Australia. His hometown was a tiny place and

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Speaker 2: it still is today. There's only about five thousand people

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Speaker 2: who live in Picton now, so it was even smaller

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Speaker 2: when presumes back then, and it was, it hadn't been.

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Speaker 2: It had been like a town about one hundred years

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Speaker 2: when he was born. Just a little over Picton was

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Speaker 2: declared within the area of legal Settlement in Australia in

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Speaker 2: eighteen twenty one. The town was named for a British

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Speaker 2: Army officer who died at Waterloo and had been quote

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Speaker 2: feared for his irascible temperament, which I just find funny that, like,

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Speaker 2: there's this dead guy who's claimed a fame. Was he

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Speaker 2: was a real asshole, let's name a town in Australia

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Speaker 2: after him.

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Speaker 3: Is that angry? I think he's angry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a dick, he's mean, Yeah, he's Honrey Well

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Speaker 2: cussin that.

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Speaker 3: Might be a good quality to have for that kind

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Speaker 3: of person.

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Speaker 2: I wow, I can see being Henri being a benefit

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Speaker 2: as a Napoleonic era military officer, although again, he dies

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Speaker 2: at Waterlo, so he can't have been that good, right

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Speaker 2: I like soldiers who don't die at Waterloo.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm such a a flouncy little gay boy that

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Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't know what qualities would be good

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Speaker 4: for a soldier out Waterloo.

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Speaker 2: Don't. Let's tell yourself short gabe. I believe if you

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Speaker 2: were taken back in time to Waterloo, you could kill

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Speaker 2: a lot of Frenchmen or Englishmen, depending on you know

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Speaker 2: where you stand, or Austria. I you know, I believe.

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Speaker 4: I think I'm just off to the side, Like does

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Speaker 4: anyone want chips?

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Speaker 3: I think I'm.

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Speaker 2: Trying to stay away from the cannons. You guys are

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Speaker 2: just like walking at guns. No, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: walk towards a gun. That's a horrible idea.

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Speaker 3: I'll be here with juice when you come back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to introduce the concept of ducking behind

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Speaker 2: cover to the Napoleonic era militaries and then.

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Speaker 4: Get well, this is my problem, Like with like a

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Speaker 4: confronting Ice in DHS where I am in LA because

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Speaker 4: my whole thing is like, they'll just come do their

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Speaker 4: little army thing, and I'm like, my thought, I'm so

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Speaker 4: autistic that I'm like, you don't have to do this.

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Speaker 3: Does any of us have to do this? None of

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Speaker 3: us have to do this.

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Speaker 4: I feel like I just go home being like guys,

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Speaker 4: I think we should just go home. Oh like the

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Speaker 4: general from the Dispatch song.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly like that. So anyway, that was a digression.

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Speaker 2: Harry Bailey was the eldest child of his parents, Jack Bailey,

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Speaker 2: a railway night watchman and eventually station master, and Ruth Smith,

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Speaker 2: a homemaker. Smith was his mom's maiden name, at least obviously,

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Speaker 2: so she's Ruth Bailey. I presume by the time that

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Speaker 2: Harry is born. She and her husband came up, grew

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Speaker 2: up in the same general area in New South Wales,

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Speaker 2: and they'd known each other most of their lives. They

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Speaker 2: send Harry to a private Christian school for his basic education,

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Speaker 2: and unfortunately, this is one of those bastards where we

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Speaker 2: just have very little about their childhood in early life,

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Speaker 2: like basically nothing. We don't have any quotes that he

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Speaker 2: was an ambitious boy. We don't have any even have

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Speaker 2: anyone talking about the fact that he was like a

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Speaker 2: good student, which I presume he was given, you know

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Speaker 2: what he does with the rest of his life. So

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Speaker 2: we're just gonna have to move forward knowing this guy's

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Speaker 2: early backstory is kind of a black to the world.

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Speaker 2: The only hint of any kind of color or detail

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Speaker 2: about his day to day life as a child came

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Speaker 2: from this entry. Came from his entry in the Australian

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Speaker 2: Encyclopedia of Biography. Quote Harry enrolled in science at the

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Speaker 2: University of Sydney in nineteen forty lacking money, He did

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Speaker 2: not finish the course and found work as a pharmacist's assistant.

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Speaker 2: And in fact there seem to have been I think

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Speaker 2: there's two times where Harry is trying to go through

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Speaker 2: a degree program and has to drop out for financial reasons,

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Speaker 2: and from that I think it's reasonable to infer he

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Speaker 2: comes from a kind of poor family. You know, maybe

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Speaker 2: it probably not unusually poor for Pickton, probably as poor

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Speaker 2: as basically everybody else in Pigton, but he doesn't have

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Speaker 2: money growing up, right, Like you don't have to drop

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Speaker 2: out of school twice to work full time if your

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Speaker 2: family's flush generally speaking.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that'll put a kip on your shoulder in medical

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Speaker 4: school for sure.

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Speaker 2: And it I think is he is going to really

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Speaker 2: follow the money his entire career in some very evil ways.

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Speaker 2: And I think maybe that's kind of where it starts.

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Speaker 2: Like he grows up really poor, and that is kind

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Speaker 2: of that seems to be his primary motivation in life.

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Speaker 2: Is I want to make money, even more than the

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Speaker 2: medical stuff he's talking about doing. He wants to get paid, right.

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Speaker 3: I feel like that happens.

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Speaker 4: To men, Like men are poor and then they grow

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Speaker 4: up and they're like, I gotta be evil about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I get it because, like you know,

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Speaker 2: I have like as in my career, I have not

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Speaker 2: done what a lot of other reporters do and focused

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Speaker 2: on like getting staff jobs. I focused on my reporting

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Speaker 2: is usually but been like my secondary job and I

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Speaker 2: did something else in comedy and entertainment because it paid

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Speaker 2: better because I did grow up like poor and with

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Speaker 2: a lot of economic anxiety, and so as a kid

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Speaker 2: there was this growing up, there was this like I

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Speaker 2: have to at least I don't want to like deal

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Speaker 2: with the fear that my parents dealt with their whole childhood.

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Speaker 2: I want to be more stable than they were. But Harry,

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Speaker 2: I think it becomes like a I have to get

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Speaker 2: rich at all costs and it doesn't matter whatever I

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Speaker 2: have to do to people to do it, as opposed

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Speaker 2: to maybe I won't work full time for a newspaper

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Speaker 2: because that doesn't seem like like a future forward position, right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, chip on your shoulder entitlement. It starts like.

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Speaker 2: That, Yeah, yep, yep. So and this is reading between

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Speaker 2: the lines a bit by me here is to take

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Speaker 2: it with a grain of salt. But I the fact

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Speaker 2: that he is he's really committed to trying to get

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Speaker 2: a scientific degree, right like a medical degree eventually, because

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Speaker 2: he tries a couple of times, he's to drop out

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Speaker 2: and save up money. I see this as evidence that

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Speaker 2: we've got this kind of we've got a smart, determined,

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Speaker 2: broke ass boy who's desperate to make something of himself,

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Speaker 2: right like he really has to. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I don't wanna, Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't want

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Speaker 4: to say that. That's I think that that's a really

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Speaker 4: admirable thing, and I.

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Speaker 2: Go well or badly, I will maintain.

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Speaker 4: My admiration toward him until inevitably something.

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Speaker 2: Happens and he is kind of admirable at this start here,

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Speaker 2: at least it seems that way. Yeah, to continue with

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Speaker 2: a quote from the ins Australian Encyclopedia of Biography. On

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Speaker 2: January nineteenth, nineteen forty five, at the Registrar General's Office, Sydney,

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Speaker 2: he married Marjorie Jocelyn Noonan, a cashier. He studied medicine

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Speaker 2: at the University of Sydney and got his MB and MS,

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Speaker 2: winning the Norton Manning Memorial Prize for Psychiatry and the

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Speaker 2: major Ian Vickery Prize for Pediatrics. So again, not a

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Speaker 2: lot of color here, but he does finally get to graduate,

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Speaker 2: and as soon as he starts working as a psychiatrist,

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Speaker 2: because obviously you're doing your internship and stuff, he's like

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Speaker 2: winning awards very quickly. He is in very short order,

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Speaker 2: within a few years of starting he is an award

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Speaker 2: winning psychiatrist.

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Speaker 3: Is a psychiatrist four children.

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Speaker 2: Do we know he's that child psychiatry is a major

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Speaker 2: area of his interest. Yes, Like he has like specialized

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Speaker 2: in pediatrics for a period of time. Yeah, well so, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's he's at this point by the time he's you know,

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Speaker 2: in his early twenties, he's got his medical degree, he's

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Speaker 2: on some awards, he's married a working class girl, you

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Speaker 2: know who we presume kind of busted her ass the

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Speaker 2: whole time he was in school. They he'll make his

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Speaker 2: dream come true, and then it does. He seems to

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Speaker 2: be doing really, really well. Right, everything's coming up Bailey. Now,

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Speaker 2: I will say the fact that because he's when he's

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Speaker 2: working on his medical degree, he did not initially want

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Speaker 2: to be a psychiatrist. It's a choice heans kind of

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Speaker 2: late in his scholastic history, and there's a reason for

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Speaker 2: this by the nineteen fifties. And this is true in Australia,

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Speaker 2: but it's true all throughout like the Western world, psychiatry

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Speaker 2: is not a super popular field for doctors, right, And

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Speaker 2: because of this, in many parts of the West, including Australia,

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Speaker 2: there are not enough psychiatrists to meet the need. It's

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Speaker 2: a very underserved job, right, just like I think a

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Speaker 2: good example today, there's not nearly enough antistesiologists.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 2: You're a if you're a nurse, antastesiologist or a fucking doctor,

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Speaker 2: you are going to be working as much as you

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Speaker 2: want to work. Because there is no limit to the

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Speaker 2: amount of need for you.

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Speaker 4: Sure, and that's not a super important part of the

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Speaker 4: surgery or anything.

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Speaker 2: No, of course not, it's huge.

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Speaker 3: It's one of the most important parts.

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Speaker 2: And as a result, if you are getting into a

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Speaker 2: medical field today and it's something that you have an

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Speaker 2: inclination for, you make a lot of money as an anesthesiologist.

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Speaker 2: And the same thing is kind of true of a

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Speaker 2: psych in the fifties, right, there's not enough of them

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Speaker 2: to meet the need. There's a lot of demand, and

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Speaker 2: so Bailey being's kind of poor kid looking for a

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Speaker 2: place to make as Mark would both see, well, it'll

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Speaker 2: be easy to get work as a psychiatrist, like this

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Speaker 2: is a field where they need more people. But also

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Speaker 2: it's a new field and there's a lot of shit

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Speaker 2: being discovered every day. I have a chance to get

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Speaker 2: in kind of on not on the ground floor, but

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Speaker 2: pretty close and make a name for myself because there's

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Speaker 2: less of us. So if I'm good at this, it'll

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Speaker 2: be a lot easier for me to stand out than

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Speaker 2: if I were to become a hard surgeon or whatever.

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Speaker 4: And the state of mental health is not what we

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Speaker 4: want it to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll talk about that too. But why he becomes

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Speaker 2: a psychiatrist is psychiatry is what you want to get

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Speaker 2: into if you're looking to make your mark in the

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Speaker 2: medical field and you want the easiest time of it possible.

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Speaker 2: So after graduate, getting out and getting his degree, our

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Speaker 2: boy spends a year interning at the Prince Alfred Hospital

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Speaker 2: and then gets a full time regular gig at the

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Speaker 2: Broughton Hall Psychiatric Clinic and Leichhart, which is a suburb

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Speaker 2: of Sydney that I'm sure I have mispronounced.

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Speaker 1: And we have a giant Australian audience, so they will

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Speaker 1: let you.

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Speaker 2: Know, Roicky he going room. That's my Australian. That's gonna

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Speaker 2: piss him off more or sorry, guys, that was uncalled for.

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Speaker 2: That was uncalled for.

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Speaker 4: This is like when you spell something wrong on purpose

397
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Speaker 4: in a TikTok so that you get a bunch of engagement.

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Speaker 3: You're doing this on purpose.

399
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Speaker 4: So the more common, the more emails, the more popular

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Speaker 4: the show is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've discovered something with Australians, which is that they

402
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Speaker 2: respond really well to negging. So I'm just kind of

403
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Speaker 2: doing that to build our audience over there.

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Speaker 1: Well, I just want to give a spoiler that Roberts

405
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Speaker 1: actually never intentionally mispronounced a single word a day in

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Speaker 1: his life.

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Speaker 2: And never I've never mispronounced a word, I'd.

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Speaker 1: Argue, Yeah, he's never mispronounced a word, and if it happened,

409
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Speaker 1: it wasn't it was.

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Speaker 3: The job's done.

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Speaker 2: What do you want from him?

412
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, flood the emails, let us know.

413
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Speaker 2: Yeah, please don't let them know.

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Speaker 3: I won't read the emails. I don't care.

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Speaker 2: So he starts working at this this clinic in a

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Speaker 2: suburb of Sydney, and he seemed to be really good

417
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Speaker 2: at it. Opportunity to start flooding in for him at

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Speaker 2: this point, and he's so in demand that in the

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Speaker 2: fall of nineteen fifty four, he begins a fifteen month

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Speaker 2: tour for the World Health Organization, which is going to

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Speaker 2: take him all across Canada, the United States, and Europe.

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Speaker 1: Remember the World Health Organization?

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Speaker 5: Everyone, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is I mean, he

424
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 5: doesn't do anything bad while he's with the WHOW, but

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Speaker 5: his time with the WAH Show does kind of lead

426
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Speaker 5: to something bad. It's not really the but part of

427
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Speaker 5: what this is is he's a young up and coming

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Speaker 5: and the WHO is having him shadow prominent psychiatrists in

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Speaker 5: other countries right to see their methods, to work with them.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's a good professional development thing. And he

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Speaker 5: finds himself as he's meeting these guys and he's seeing

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Speaker 5: these new cutting edge treatments they're working on, he finds

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Speaker 5: himself gravitating to these like sexy new medications and electronic

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Speaker 5: devices that are being used in therapy, like electroconvulsive therapy.

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Speaker 5: He's really drawn too, right, and that is that's a

436
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Speaker 5: real therapy.

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Speaker 2: People use it. It's used today on for example, people

438
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,479
Speaker 2: like epilepsy, But at this time, people are just kind

439
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 2: of being electrocuted because they figure maybe that'll shock shake

440
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 2: him out of it. Right, It's not great. It's wildly

441
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 2: overprescribed at this period of time in a way that

442
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,360
Speaker 2: is like often just torture. And he's also really interested.

443
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:55,120
Speaker 2: We're starting by the fifties. You have to remember, drugs

444
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,719
Speaker 2: aren't great until like the nineteen hundreds is really when

445
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,640
Speaker 2: we start to figure out drugs, and especially we start

446
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 2: to figure out sedatives largely like benzos. Like benzos hit

447
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 2: the floor and doctors are like a pill that makes

448
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,360
Speaker 2: my patient just go away, so I can do whatever

449
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 2: I need to do on them and they won't say

450
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:23,400
Speaker 2: anything amazing, right, And he loves sedatives. He finds himself

451
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 2: like fascinated by benzos in particular.

452
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: Honey, me too, Like what Yeah.

453
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 2: Who doesn't love a good benzo? Am I right?

454
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 3: Yeah? They're good.

455
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 4: But he's not taking them himself, right, he's just over

456
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 4: prescribing them, or loves to prescribe them.

457
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 2: At this point. Yeah, he just loves to prescribe them.

458
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: And it's important, we would say over but at the time,

459
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 2: nobody's calling this over prescription. I don't even know that

460
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: he's prescribing more than his normal for the day at

461
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 2: this point in time. Because doctors love giving out benzos

462
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 2: in the fifties, Sure do, Sure do.

463
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 3: That's why boomers are the way they are.

464
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 2: Maybe, Yeah, like eighty percent of medicine is benzo, diacipine

465
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 2: and fucking cigarettes. Like that's most of modern medicine. We

466
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 2: should returnn, we should returnn.

467
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 3: That was the golden era.

468
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, God Almighty, speaking of gold. You know who might

469
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 2: sell you benzos, you know, under the table, if you're

470
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 2: nice to them?

471
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 3: Is it the products and services?

472
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. We might be sponsored by a

473
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: guy down the street who will sell you benzos or

474
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 2: there might just be a guy down the street who

475
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 2: will sell you benzos. And if so, I gotta tell

476
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 2: you that's just going to be straight fentanyl. Folks, test

477
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: your shit, you know.

478
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 3: From our sponsors, Test your shit.

479
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,360
Speaker 2: Do whatever our sponsors give you, or anyone who says

480
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 2: they're one of our sponsors. Anyway, here's ads Welcome back

481
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 2: to the Pard Coast. So I don't know why I

482
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: said it that way.

483
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: Anyway, happening here New Orleans is getting.

484
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's got to be the nolins. So let's take

485
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 2: a step back here. We've just been talking about doctor

486
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 2: Bailey's live up to the kind of birth of his

487
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 2: career and his tour with the Who. He's trying out

488
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 2: new drugs, he's learning how to electrocute people, meeting fun

489
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: doctors all are over the world. So let's take a

490
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: step back and let's talk a little bit about the

491
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 2: state of psychiatry and care for the mentally ill at

492
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 2: this point, both in the West in general and in

493
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 2: Australia in specific, primarily in Australia specifically. So the first

494
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 2: mental health institution in Australia was the Australian Lunatic Asylum

495
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,479
Speaker 2: in Castle Hill in New South Wales, which they used

496
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 2: to just call him that used to just call them

497
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: lunatic asylum crazy.

498
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 3: That's what I call my apartments. Yeah.

499
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 2: So that was established in eighteen eleven and I probably

500
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 2: don't have to tell you it wasn't a nice place.

501
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 2: The Lunatic Asylum in eighteen eleven attendance had no training. Treatment,

502
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: was not a people There's no thought that you treat people.

503
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 2: This is just a warehouse to stick crazy people until

504
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 2: they die. Right. There's a lot of violence, a lot

505
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 2: of brutality, a lot of sickness. It's gross and it

506
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: gets really crowded really quickly because whenever someone doesn't like

507
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: fit in and you know, isn't able to like handle

508
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 2: life on their own, they're just kind of thrown in here. Right.

509
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 2: A lot of these people are just like not even

510
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: folks that we would say have mental illnesses. Often it's

511
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: just like, oh, poor guy, throw them in the lunatic asylum.

512
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 2: He's sleeping in the street something like that.

513
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 4: I had a friend who was six foot seven and

514
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 4: he would sometimes be like, oh, what if about past

515
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 4: lives for us?

516
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 3: And I was like, uh, I would be in.

517
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 4: An asylum for being like having depression and being gay

518
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 4: and you're six foot seven. You would be in a

519
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 4: freak show. This is there's no romanticizing this.

520
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would. He would be in a freak show.

521
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 2: Or you would be in like one of those Austrian

522
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: military units where they only hired tall guys to.

523
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 3: Not having the pleasant bill experience. I would have been

524
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 3: burned at the stake.

525
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 2: W So that first lunatic asylum gets so crowded that

526
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: in eighteen thirty seven a new asylum has to be built,

527
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: and more follow a decade later. Per an article on

528
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: the Chelmsford Scandal blog quote, mentally ill patients were commonly

529
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 2: transferred from jails to these asylums upon their opening. This

530
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 2: gives clues as to the attitudes held towards those afflicted

531
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 2: with mental illness. It was only in eighteen sixty seven

532
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 2: that an Act of Parliament made it mandatory for mentally

533
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: impaired persons to be housed in asylums rather than prisons.

534
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 2: This group together the mentally retarded or disabled and the

535
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: mentally ill. In nineteen hundred, these categories were made distinct

536
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 2: and the patients separated. Those are not all terms we

537
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,479
Speaker 2: use now, but this is what they're calling them at

538
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 2: the time.

539
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 3: Right, they're bringing it back.

540
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're bringing it back. Yeah, fucking streamers are. So

541
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 2: things do start to get better, but even in asylums

542
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: where the superintendents are promoting like a philosophy of humane

543
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 2: care and actually trying to treat people, there were still

544
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: massive practical issues of there's never enough budget for these

545
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: places to make them very nice. They're always over crowded,

546
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,120
Speaker 2: it's hard to get supplies, and this leads to what's

547
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: called a custodial approach. So asylums are regulating and housing people,

548
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: and they're acknowledge that they need treatment, but they're not

549
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: providing treatment. The only thing that they use to control

550
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 2: patients they've got like violence and straight jackets. Right, they're

551
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: basically like beating them and to comply them and putting

552
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: them in straight jackets. The situation improves gradually and unevenly.

553
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 2: By the time doctor Bailey is in college, the focus

554
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 2: had shifted to treating the illnesses people presented, and that's

555
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: now increasingly a part of the actual asylum experience is

556
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 2: now we're still you know, pretty unpleasant places, but we're

557
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 2: actually trying to treat you much more than we were before,

558
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 2: and treatment in this case still does just often mean

559
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 2: you're pounding people's brains with drugs, though right there's not

560
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 2: you're not necessarily getting like useful therapy. They've figured out

561
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: tranquilizers by this point, which have replaced straight jackets. They're like, look,

562
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 2: we're not using straight jackets as much because we're just

563
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 2: doping them up to the point where they can't move

564
00:26:59,359 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: most of the.

565
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 4: Would the idea be to reintegrate them into society.

566
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 2: Yes, that has finally broken through, and by the fifties

567
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 2: and sixties, nurse's attendants theoretically at least consider themselves to

568
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: be working to treat and improve the conditions of their patients,

569
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: not just to store them. People are often still just

570
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: stored their whole lives, but there's at least an understanding

571
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 2: that you're supposed to try to help these people.

572
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 4: You know, you said your wife, because she's depressed. They

573
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 4: put her on rinzos, send her back home. Now she

574
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 4: just washes the dishes like a zombie.

575
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 2: We did it exactly exactly, and honestly, theoretical fifties housewife,

576
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: send me your benzos please, I will put them to

577
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: good use, so not as a job. I would never

578
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 2: you did, never do something like that. Now. Unfortunately, this

579
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 2: is a primitive time still for mental health care treatment,

580
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: and many doctors find themselves overwhelmed by the difficulty and

581
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 2: horror of dealing with certain illnesses. This makes them desperate

582
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 2: to find chemical solutions that are fast and simple, and

583
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: this brings us to deep sleep therapy. The basic idea

584
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: here is that for some mental illnesses, maybe you'll help

585
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: a person if you just knock them out with drugs

586
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 2: and keep them unconscious in something that's kind of adjacent

587
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: to an artificially maintained coma for long periods of time. Right,

588
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: how long? Great question? You know, we'll talk about that.

589
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 2: But it's anywhere from in some cases because one thing

590
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: they're using this for where it might actually kind of help.

591
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 2: I mean, the drugs are probably still making a net

592
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: negative because of how much they're pumping. But like people

593
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,239
Speaker 2: who are insomniacs, they'll be like, Okay, well I can

594
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: knock you out for twelve hours, then you catch up

595
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: on your sleep, right, And that's initially a lot of

596
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: the first tracks they are just trying for like a day,

597
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: but they start trying it for like a couple of

598
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 2: days at a time, a week at a time, two weeks, like.

599
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: They'll do various versions of that as they explore it more.

600
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: The first psychiatrist to try this, as far as we

601
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: can tell, was a Scotsman named Neil McCloud, and he

602
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: experimented with knocking people out for long periods of time

603
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: as a treatment for skit. It's aphrenia, right, his.

604
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 4: Attitude bipolar disorder mania could be good.

605
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: It could be good for that.

606
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, sleep it, sleep it off right, you can see

607
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: wipe up. People would think this, He's not McLoud is

608
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: not a bad guy for wondering fuck this. Maybe if

609
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: I just helped let this person sleep for like five days,

610
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: the wake up better. I don't know, it's worth a

611
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 2: try at the time right now. As you probably know,

612
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: all sleep is not created equal. You got your light

613
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 2: sleep or slow wave sleep, and you've got deep sleep,

614
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: and you've got rapid eye movement sleep, better known as

615
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: rim sleep because when you enter the rim stage of sleep,

616
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: the human subconscious naturally generates the image and voice of

617
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: Michael Stipe. We all experience this, right, That's why they

618
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: call it rim sleep.

619
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: You got me?

620
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was not expecting it.

621
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: I I I'll always make a good an ram joke.

622
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 2: You know it's a it's a band. It's a band.

623
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: They're definitely a band. Each stage of sleep has different

624
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: effects and does different things for you. By this point

625
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 2: kind of the mid twentieth century, scientists had started to

626
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: understand that deep sleep is particularly important for healing, right,

627
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 2: like from physical ailments and stuff. You know, like it's

628
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: what you're like, you're supposed to sleep if you're sick,

629
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: you know, to get more sleep because your body does

630
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: actually like heal and kind of restores itself during the

631
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: sleep process, and deep sleep is really important for that,

632
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: which is why if you don't get enough deep sleep,

633
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: your health starts to suffer. Deep sleep also plays a

634
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: role in memory consolidation. Right your brain does a lot

635
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: of its like sorting and filing memories. I guess during

636
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: the deep sleep stage. I want to quote from an

637
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: article by the editorial team at neurolaunch dot com. Proponents

638
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: of deep sleep therapy hypothesize that by artificially extending the

639
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 2: deep sleep phase, they could enhance its restorative properties and

640
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: provide therapeutic benefits for individuals suffering from mental health disorders.

641
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: The theory suggested that prolonged deep sleep could allow the

642
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: brain to resetural neural pathways, reduce stress, and alleviate symptoms

643
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: of various psychiatric conditions. However, it's important to note that

644
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 2: the mechanisms proposed by deep sleep therapy advocates were largely

645
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 2: speculative and lacked robust scientific evidence. The human sleep cycle

646
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: is a complex and finely tuned process, and artificially manipulating

647
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: it for extended periods of time carry significant risks and

648
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: potential consequences.

649
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 3: Yes, I was going to say the opposite.

650
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 4: The opposite of that is you're sleeping so much that

651
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 4: you have a fog in your your brain is actually

652
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 4: working worse.

653
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing with depression, right, you

654
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 2: want to sleep all the time, or it's one thing

655
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: that can happen with depression. People tend to want to

656
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: just knock themselves out for long periods of time.

657
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, you lose track of you lose track of the days,

658
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 4: You lose track of like your own memories. What's a dream?

659
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 4: What's not? You become Leonardo DiCaprio an inception.

660
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: Sure, yep, but I think you also, I feel like

661
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: I get I think you get why a well meaning

662
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: doctor or a patient would feel like, oh yeah, that

663
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: makes sense, I see why that would help. Yeah, like sure,

664
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: you know, let's give it a try.

665
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 4: Look, you're depressed or you're stressed out, all right, they

666
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 4: do give you still a.

667
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: Benzo, Yeah, if you're lucky. So let's talk about how

668
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 2: deep sleep therapy works. Once a patient was identified as

669
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: a good candidate for this treatment, they'd be administered a

670
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: heavy dose of various sedatives, described by the people at

671
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 2: neuro Launch as a cocktail of barbituates and other sedative drugs, which,

672
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: if I'm honest lucky, I know it sounds pretty great. Right.

673
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: This is the worst two people to do this episode.

674
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: I know.

675
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 4: I know.

676
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 2: As I was reading that, as I was like doing

677
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 2: my research, I kept being like, fuck, I do want

678
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: to try this. This sounds rad So the cocktail is

679
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 2: three major ingredients. Chloral Hydrate is a big one. This

680
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 2: is a chemical that had come out of Germany as

681
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: a popular sedative in the eighteen seventies and it works

682
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: very well, but it's also extraordinarily dangerous. Just being close

683
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: to the vapors of chloral hydrate can fuck you up up.

684
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 2: It's also super addictive, which is a problem because if

685
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: you're keeping someone unconscious and giving them this every day

686
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: for two weeks, their body can wake they can wake

687
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: up addicted to chlorohydrate. Right. It is not ideal. Yeah, yeah,

688
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: it's also and it also causes like lots of physical

689
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: problems for patients, including because it's a central nervsystem depressant,

690
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: heart and lung failure. So people can die pretty easily

691
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: overdosing on this stuff.

692
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 4: Again, my god, that's so much more dangerous than I thought.

693
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: It's a it's a serious drug. Chlorohydrate is a real

694
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: ass drug, and it's not the only one in this cocktail.

695
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 4: Are you taking? Is it like a tincture or you're

696
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 4: taking great question?

697
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: Great question. It varies on the doctor. It varies on

698
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 2: the doctor, and sometimes it is administered via ivy. Sometimes

699
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: it's administered via like a series of pills. Right. Usually

700
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: they're taking pills to put them down initially, and then

701
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: an ivy kind of keeps them topped up during the

702
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 2: period of time while they're unconscious. Right. Another major ingredient

703
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: of the cocktail is ammo barbital, which is a barbituate

704
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: derivative that was known as a street drug under the

705
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: name Blue Heavens and sounds awesome. It is also super

706
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 2: addictive and causes horrific withdrawals that can straight up kill you.

707
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: Benzos are one of those things. If you are addicted

708
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 2: to benzos and you stop, it can just kill your ass.

709
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 2: Like the withdrawal can like you have to you have

710
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: to taper off, often with medical assistance. It can be

711
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: a real problem.

712
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: Blue Heaven.

713
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: Blue Heavens is the street name for uh m O

714
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: barbital and yeah. Another major part of the cocktail was

715
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: sodium theopentol, which is used as a general anesthetic but

716
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: is better known as one of the more popular truth serums. Yeah, exactly, Yeah,

717
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 2: I knew that. Therem Now it's also a rapet onset

718
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: barbituate like m O barbitall. So in addition to this

719
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: is like chloral hydrate and two rap it onset barbituates.

720
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 2: Is what you're taking to in this doctor, her.

721
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 3: Heart and life are failing you.

722
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you ain't breathe shut.

723
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 4: Your mind on something called Blue Heaven and you, baby,

724
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 4: stop telling your secrets.

725
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 2: Exactly perfect.

726
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 3: Wow, that's Friday night, baby.

727
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like a pretty nice Friday night. If

728
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: you've never been on like a if you've never taken

729
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: like a heavy dose of xanax or something. When I

730
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 2: was a kid, and I'm a kid, I mean, like

731
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: twenty years old. The person I was seeing at the

732
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 2: time gave me what we both thought. We each took

733
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 2: a quarter bar of xanax. This is my first time

734
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: taking xanax. She'd been taking it for a while, but

735
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: it was street zan's and what we got was thankfully,

736
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 2: this was not the era of fentanyl yet. It was

737
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 2: definitely alpras a lamb that was pressed into that street pill.

738
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: But when you get a street pill, sometimes it's the

739
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: strength of a normal pill. Sometimes it's much stronger. So

740
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 2: I took a quarter bar, which should just kind of

741
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: mellow you out, and I took it, and I remember

742
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: stepping down the street out in front of my house,

743
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 2: and then I came to myself sitting on my couch

744
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 2: thirty years hours later, without any memories of the intervening

745
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: period whatsoever.

746
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 3: I would do that it would totally work.

747
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, it totally wasn't even.

748
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, were you living in New York? Where were you?

749
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 5: No?

750
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 2: And I was I was in Texas at this point

751
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: in time. Okay, okay, but you've had some hot hot

752
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 2: zands too, I'm guessing, and that's part of why, especially

753
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: in the mid aughts, there were a lot of deaths

754
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 2: due to zans that had fent in them or were

755
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: just that were just way too hot. Because if you're

756
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: I mean, xanx is not a great drug, you don't

757
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: if you can kill yourself. Mixing it with alcohol really

758
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: dangerous to mix with like fucking coke or whatever, especially

759
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 2: in high quantities. And if you have no idea how

760
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: strong the pill you're taking is like, that's particularly dangerous.

761
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: But I bring this up to be like, that's how

762
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: powerful this shit is. You can take a pill besides

763
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: the end of your finger and you're just gone for

764
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: a full twenty four hours or more, right, And these

765
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 2: people are taking way more out yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,

766
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 2: which is why they're throwing in the chlorohydrate and they

767
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: don't want you functioning for shit. During this I.

768
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 4: Was taking ambient for a while and I stopped because

769
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,919
Speaker 4: I would I would go to bed wearing one thing,

770
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 4: take the ambien, and then wake up in different clothes

771
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 4: in a different part of my house.

772
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah. It's fucking wild stuff.

773
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 4: I was like, what is a food would be missing.

774
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 4: I'd be like, I guess I ate something.

775
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 2: I must have done something, yeah, who knows? Who knows?

776
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 4: One time I looked in my Google searches and I

777
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 4: had googled scary horses.

778
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have a couple of notebooks from times like

779
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 2: that in my life, where it'd be like, oh, I

780
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 2: had a really great idea for an article while I

781
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: was fucked up, and I'll look over and it'll just

782
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: say something like completely incomprehensible, or I'll just not be

783
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: able to read my own handwriting. It's like, thanks drug me, like,

784
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 2: really the idea of the century. There the word purple

785
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: and then four paragraphs of unreadable sqwriggles around it. I'll

786
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: turn this into a book immediately, brilliant.

787
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 4: That's like that thing where they're like artists have to

788
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 4: be like fucked up to me, I'm like, N So,

789
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 4: I don't know about.

790
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 2: That, Na, Na. There's certainly limits to when it's how

791
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 2: much of that can be handy or useful. So. One

792
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: of the first physicians to explore the use of deep

793
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 2: sleep therapy, or DST was Jacob Kleisi. He was a

794
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: Swiss psychiatrist who seems to have had a deal with

795
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: the pharmaceutical manufacturer Roche because he only used their barbituates

796
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 2: in his cocktail. Per an article on the website mad

797
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 2: in America by doctor Philip Hickey quote in Clacy's first

798
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 2: publication on this matter, he acknowledged that three of the

799
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: twenty six patients had died during the study due to

800
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: broncho pneumonia or cardiac hemorrhages. This is about twelve percent. Nevertheless,

801
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: the method achieved some popularity in the fifties and sixties

802
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 2: and was used by William Sargent in the UK and

803
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 2: Donald Cameron in Canada, both considered imminent psychiatrists. So the

804
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 2: first guy to try deep sleep therapy kills twelve percent

805
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: of the twenty six patients that he.

806
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 3: This is because people didn't talk to each other.

807
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: I mean no, unfortunately not they're reading this. Sergeant and

808
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: Cameron find out about this because they read this study

809
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 2: where he kills twelve percent of his patients and are like,

810
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: I gotta do. I gotta get on that.

811
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 3: I gotta people. The people don't know, oh yeah.

812
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. The people taking agreeing to the

813
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 2: treatment are not being told. So yeah, and the first

814
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 2: study we did on this. It killed three of the

815
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 2: twenty six people in it. You want to you want

816
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: to roll those dice?

817
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

818
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 2: And this is part of the problem is it is

819
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: the standard to have consent in this period of time,

820
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: but what they what consent means in the fifties and

821
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 2: sixties is not what we would call consent today because

822
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: a big thing doctors. There's a bit doctors don't like

823
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 2: explaining stuff to patients in this period of time. I'm

824
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 2: not don't always do it like.

825
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: Explaining stuff to patients now at all.

826
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like but it's considered it's like offensive

827
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 2: to a lot of doctors that a patient would have

828
00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 2: any input at all.

829
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: Oh, it's like, how dare you question my expertise?

830
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 3: I'm a doctor.

831
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: La la la la la la la.

832
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

833
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, not to victim blame, but I think you should

834
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 4: ask every time you're prescribed something, has this killed twelve

835
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 4: percent of the people?

836
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 5: Kid?

837
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 2: Has this killed twelve percent of the people who do it?

838
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 4: I mean, if they say no, and they really killed

839
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 4: thirteen percent, that's on you.

840
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 2: That's on you.

841
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: Solid question to ask.

842
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 2: One of the problems here because these are doctors often

843
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: working in like public health for the mentally ill in

844
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 2: the sixties. One of the issues is that a lot

845
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 2: of the people that are being sent are not compassmentis anyway,

846
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: so they're not able and often not asked to consent

847
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 2: to anything. But there's certainly these guys's attitude. No one

848
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 2: outside is going to come in and say, like, well,

849
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 2: you're giving all these guys a treatment that might kill

850
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 2: twelve percent of them. Everyone else who is in the

851
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: government is in like a local, ohose should be a

852
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: watchdog for this is just like, we want these people

853
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 2: off the streets, keep them away from where anyone will

854
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: watch them. I don't care. You're a doctor, do whatever,

855
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 2: you fuck it. Right, That's not all because obviously regular

856
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 2: people who are out in society and stuff and not

857
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: institutionalized get these therapies too. But a lot of them

858
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 2: are institutionalized people and just nobody gives a fuck what

859
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 2: happens to them, right, That's why they're doing like this. Yeah,

860
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: still now, So, the amount of time you're kept under

861
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 2: during deep sleep therapy varies pretty widely. The vast majority

862
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 2: of therapeutic treatments in Europe seem to have been a

863
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 2: day or less. It's very uncommon for the credible doctors

864
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: doing this at the time to keep people under for

865
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 2: more than a day at a time, but some researchers

866
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: experiment with extended periods of time up to like two

867
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 2: weeks long per neuro launch cod yeah, oh and it

868
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 2: gets just read yeah, two weeks doctor coma legally that's

869
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: a coma. That's a fucking coma per neural launch dot

870
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: com quote. During this time, patients were kept in a

871
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 2: state of unconsciousness with brief periods of wakefulness for feeding

872
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: and basic care monitoring in safety protocols were essential components

873
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: of deep sleeve therapy given the risks associated with prolonged sedation.

874
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 2: Medical staff closely monitored patient's vital signs, including heart rate,

875
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 2: blood pressure, and respiratory function, and travenous fluids and nutritional

876
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 2: support were provided to maintain hydration and prevent malnutrition. Sovie's

877
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: gonna put a picture up you can see on the

878
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 2: video version. If not, I will describe it. Yeah, you're

879
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 2: seeing a feeding of a patient here. So you've got

880
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: a man in a hospital bed a sixties look in

881
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: one unconscious. There's a doctor or an orderly I can't

882
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: really tell standing behind him, who's got his he's holding

883
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: his hat. He's got a hand on either side of

884
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 2: this guy's head to keep his head straight. And then

885
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 2: there is you know, like a beer bong. You know

886
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 2: it's a funnel beer. Yeah, it's like what they're using

887
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 2: is like a funnel attached to a tube that goes

888
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 2: into his nose, and this guy's just pouring from Honestly,

889
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: it looks like a carafe of coffee. I'm sure it's

890
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 2: some like nutritional supplement or just hydration or whatever, but

891
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: it looks like he's just pouring coffee into this guy's.

892
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 3: No me in the morning trying to get up coffee.

893
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, you gotta know, Fee, I can't I I can't

894
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 2: get out of bed until I've had an entire leader

895
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 2: of coffee poured up my nose, you know, So if

896
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: you'll tell you that's the only way I work in

897
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 2: the morning, true, Right, And then and.

898
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 4: Then as soon as they're done, my eyes pop open

899
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 4: and I pop out of bed, like don't.

900
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:22,800
Speaker 3: Wait, daddy.

901
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: Thank you for the don't wake daddy reference. That's really going,

902
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 2: that's going. That's gonna be really popular with the chunk

903
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 2: of our audience whose knees are starting to fail. Oh,

904
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 2: and R E.

905
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: M isn't. Oh, and Michael Stipe isn't.

906
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's okay. The people who would most get the

907
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 2: Michael Stipe joke can't hear anymore. There gen X like

908
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: they're there. Their bodies failed them long ago.

909
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: Stop people that support us.

910
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: I know I love gen X listeners know I love you. Yeah,

911
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 2: So what I just described is how deeply therapy was

912
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 2: supposed to work the fact that you are supposed to

913
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 2: generally be under for no longer than a day at

914
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 2: a time, and you're woken regularly to be fed, to

915
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 2: be like moved, to be like you should be walked

916
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: around to help prevent bed sores. But you know what

917
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: that takes work. You got to have people who like

918
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 2: are keeping track of everybody's schedule and like waking guys

919
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 2: and putting them back down and moving them around and

920
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 2: cleaning them. And if you really want to cut costs,

921
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 2: why not just keep them knocked out instead and just

922
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 2: having me in conscious a whole.

923
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 4: Need?

924
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 3: Did they? They must stand you up and like weekend

925
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 3: at Bernies, you around.

926
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,919
Speaker 2: Cheaper, Cheaper is better, Cheaper is better.

927
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 3: They doesn't have one guy that's kind of making you walk.

928
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, usually they just don't do that, usually

929
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 2: just leave you unconscious. That that becomes increasingly in big facilities,

930
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 2: right in large and like the psychiatric hospitals, because they

931
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 2: often don't have adequate staff too, but they are supposed to.

932
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 2: And I should note even though the good places they

933
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 2: are waking you up regularly, moving around, feeding you, you

934
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: don't remember any of that. You're still benzoed out the

935
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: whole time. So for you, it's still like you were

936
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 2: just gone for two weeks or whatever. So the most

937
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: common early treatment deep sleep therapy is used for is schizophrenia,

938
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: but it's also used for severe depression and as I said, insomnia.

939
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 2: Over time, doctors explore treating anxiety disorders and addiction with

940
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 2: this therapy as well. And you can see the logic here, right, Oh,

941
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: somebody wants to sober up from whatever, knock them out

942
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: for a few days until they detox. Right, great idea.

943
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 2: Now there's some downsides to this. There's some reasons why

944
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 2: this is not as good an idea as it seems,

945
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,240
Speaker 2: which is that withdrawal from drugs who are physically addicted

946
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: to often carries physiological effects. And you know, most withdrawals

947
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 2: are not fatal, right, But it can become fatal when

948
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 2: someone is going through withdrawal from a drug they're physically

949
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: addicted to, and you deeply depress their central nervous system

950
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 2: for days on end with huge doses of benzos. So

951
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: people die sometimes why wait, what do you mean, how

952
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: like they stop breathing. It's a CNS depressive Yeah, so

953
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: they just they just I mean, there's other ways this

954
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 2: kills them too, But a lot of times they just

955
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: stop fucking breathing or their heart just stops. Right. There

956
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: are other ways this cocktail kills people. Some people are

957
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 2: just allergic, right and have bad reactions, or some people

958
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: are more vulnerable to benzos than others, And so a

959
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 2: dose that's okay for one is dangerous or fatal for

960
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 2: another person. Right, And they're not always being as careful

961
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: as they should be right an allergies. And again, oftentimes

962
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: this is being done in facilities where they're trying to

963
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 2: deal with as many people as quickly as possible, and

964
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: they're not overly concerned with stuff like you know, safety

965
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 2: as much as they should be. Right that said, physicians

966
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 2: love this because psychiatrists love this because it gives what

967
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 2: certain kinds of psychiatrists because obviously you got your Freudian

968
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: types who it's all about talk therapy. But they're a

969
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 2: psychiatrists whose whole thing is drugs. Drugs give them something

970
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: to you know, that's all that matters is is dosum. Right.

971
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 2: There's a place for aspects of that, obviously, but when

972
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: you take it to the too far extent, you're like,

973
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: I just don't want to deal I don't want to

974
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: talk to the patient at all. I don't want to

975
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 2: deal with their should I want them knocked out and

976
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 2: then I can give them whatever medication I think will

977
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: help them, because I'm the doctor and it's only my

978
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 2: opinion that matters, right. That is how a lot of

979
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 2: these guys think.

980
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 4: Were these people brought in by their families or like, so,

981
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 4: if they died, would somebody care?

982
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 2: Sometimes yes, sometimes no, Okay. Some of these people are

983
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 2: basically wards of the state or are brought in by

984
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 2: the state. They're arrested or something. They're sentenced to this

985
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,919
Speaker 2: place because they're they're non confishmentous, but they've committed a crime.

986
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: But a lot of people take themselves in because like

987
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 2: I can't sleep, I'm depressed, I'm suffering horrible anxiety. Right.

988
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 2: So it's a mix of ways people get into this,

989
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 2: but a lot of doctors are very enthusiastic about it.

990
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: And in terms of when you're talking about the practitioners

991
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 2: who are advocates of this therapy, they will tell patients

992
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 2: that they can get relief from their symptoms after just

993
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks that they won't even be awake

994
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: for instead of basically they're saying, look, you can go

995
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,439
Speaker 2: to the Freudian and maybe it'll help you, but it'll

996
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 2: take years of therapy or not your problem mount in

997
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 2: two weeks you're not even awake.

998
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 3: Wow.

999
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 4: God, that's what they haven't ad on on Santa Monica

1000
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 4: and Kouanga for whatever that thing is that's like the

1001
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 4: Neurow link or something where it literally says like don't

1002
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 4: be like depression gone.

1003
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 3: I'm like that can't be right.

1004
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: And I'm always you should and you should always be

1005
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: super on guard whenever anyone is talking about like a

1006
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,879
Speaker 2: serious mental health harming like and this just knocks it out.

1007
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 2: Has that ever happened?

1008
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 3: Mental health?

1009
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 2: There's some stuff like the thing that changed when I

1010
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: was a kid in very anti drug the thing that

1011
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 2: like changed my mind about pot legalities. I had a

1012
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: friend with multiple sclerosis who like she was my Wow guild,

1013
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: and she got at we got on like a webcam

1014
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 2: chat so she could show me how her hands were

1015
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: shaking as her friend prepared to join for her so

1016
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 2: she can like out. And I was like, oh, of course, right, oh,

1017
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: right now, that was all it took for me. Right,

1018
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 2: Sometimes you do get stuff that is that miraculous for

1019
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 2: certain things, but not for something that's as complex and

1020
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 2: as wide ranking as just depression. Right right, It's just

1021
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 2: I don't trust anybody making claims like that. So as

1022
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 2: time goes on, it becomes clear that deep sleep therapy

1023
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 2: has a lot of deadly issues with it. Patients undergoing

1024
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: it have a high tendency to contract pneumonia. They get

1025
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 2: bed sores that often get hideously infected, in part because

1026
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 2: since these people are unconscious for days on end, the

1027
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 2: orderlies are supposed to be taking them to the bathroom.

1028
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 2: But if you're just letting someone sleep, maybe they're not.

1029
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 2: Maybe they're putting them in a diaper, maybe the diaper overflows,

1030
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 2: maybe they're not changing the diaper often enough, and so

1031
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 2: you have bed sores that then people get shit wedged

1032
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 2: into not good for your health.

1033
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 3: For the for the video people that can see my face,

1034
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 3: you get it.

1035
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 4: But for the asome listeners, I would say, through like

1036
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 4: seventy five percent of what Robert's been saying, my mouth

1037
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 4: is just wide open.

1038
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 2: It's not pleasant.

1039
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 3: I am so shocked.

1040
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: And this is not everywhere that does this. There are

1041
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: good facilities where and in the good facilities, people still

1042
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 2: die because the treatment is inherently dangerous and a bad idea.

1043
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 2: But they're not dying of bed they're not getting bed sores, right,

1044
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: they're not sitting in their own shit. But there are

1045
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 2: places where that happens, right, And in all cases, even

1046
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 2: when you're doing this well, there's a risk of blood

1047
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 2: clots because people are on their backs, laying down for

1048
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 2: days at a time, and when you do that, you

1049
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: can sometimes you papa fucking clot.

1050
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,439
Speaker 3: Right right, right, you know, the medical term is papa clot.

1051
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,959
Speaker 2: Papa fucking clot. There's a lot of risks with this shit,

1052
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: and it becomes very clear as time goes on, and

1053
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 2: so a lot of doctors start criticizing the therapy, and

1054
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 2: people pull back. A number of practitioners stop using it,

1055
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 2: a number of hospitals stop using it, and the practitioners

1056
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: that are using it, most of them substantially narrow the

1057
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 2: scope of its prescription, right they start sending out less

1058
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 2: and less and are more discriminating about when they use it.

1059
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,760
Speaker 2: By the time World War two ends, the vast majority

1060
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 2: of patients who are getting deep sleep therapy in the

1061
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 2: UK are war veterans with what we now describe as PTSD.

1062
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: And I got to tell you, thinking back to twenty seventeen,

1063
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 2: was when I had my first really bad PTSD break.

1064
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 2: There was like a three to four week period where

1065
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 2: I was orderline psychotic, like I was not making rational

1066
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: decisions I could like I couldn't hold a thought together

1067
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 2: like I was. I don't know how to describe you

1068
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 2: if you haven't been there, like how disorienting and debilitating

1069
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 2: it was. If I could have just been unconscious for

1070
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 2: three or four weeks, I probably would have said.

1071
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, but do you think that would have helped you?

1072
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 2: No? No, no, because the data says it wouldn't have, right,

1073
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 2: But I do understand. I can see how, in good

1074
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: faith a doctor would be like, this is probably the

1075
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 2: best thing for this. And I can see how a

1076
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: fucking vet would be like, please just knock me unconscious

1077
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 2: for a while, like as long as I you promise

1078
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 2: I won't dream. Yeah, let's fucking do it, you know,

1079
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 2: Like I get why people try this.

1080
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I have I have bipolar disorder, and

1081
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 4: during mania, I wouldn't I could see like people, well

1082
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 4: meaning family members or something being like knock them out.

1083
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,399
Speaker 3: Knock them out so that he can't do it to himself.

1084
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 2: Right, And it's the I should also note here that

1085
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 2: by this point in time in the UK, when they're

1086
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 2: prescribing these soldiers, they're not knocking them out for days

1087
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: at a time. The standard length of treatment is less

1088
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: than a day, right, They're doing that sometimes for like regularly,

1089
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 2: like periodically you'll go in and they'll knock you out

1090
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: for hours, but they're not they're not being unconscious for

1091
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: days at a time.

1092
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 3: So what did help you? Oh?

1093
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 4: Me?

1094
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 2: Uh? Time some some of it with therapy. It's mostly

1095
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 2: just like time, honestly, like it's it's it's mostly just time,

1096
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 2: like kind of PRN in the moment. There's some some

1097
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 2: medications that offer some benefits to some people, but when

1098
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 2: you actually look into PTSD medicine, there's a lot of

1099
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 2: like efficacy is not always very high for the medications

1100
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 2: that have been prescribed traditionally for PTSD. Time is the

1101
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 2: thing that's had the biggest impact on me.

1102
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 3: And these people don't want time.

1103
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they don't want time, and the doctors are

1104
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 2: like promising them they don't need it, right, right, So

1105
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 2: you see both these are not This is not like

1106
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: a lot of concres where like parents are shooting bleach

1107
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 2: into their kids to stop them from having autism or something.

1108
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 2: I understand and sympathize with the people who would think

1109
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 2: this might work with the patients who would agree to us, right,

1110
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 2: I probably would have at this point, at that point

1111
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 2: in time, if I'd been dealing with fucking war trauma

1112
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 2: or something. I could see myself being like, yeah, man,

1113
00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 2: knock me the fuck out, right. So among most psychiatrists

1114
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 2: then who are still using deep sleep therapy have significantly

1115
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 2: like timpered down it. Right, you're not knocking people out

1116
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 2: for days at a time anymore. You're only using it

1117
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 2: in a couple of cases. But some psychiatrists, a small number,

1118
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 2: still see deep sleep therapy as having a massive value,

1119
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,800
Speaker 2: and the primary use it has is that when someone

1120
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 2: is unconscious, they can't stop you from doing stuff to them, right,

1121
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 2: And I don't mean true. I don't mean if in

1122
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 2: the like the gross cell, though that probably does happen.

1123
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 2: I mean electroc convulsive therapy, which is at this point,

1124
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 2: as I said, a common treatment for all manner of

1125
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 2: mood disorders and compulsive behaviors. Because it's scary and unpleasant,

1126
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 2: a lot of patients refuse to have it done to them,

1127
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 2: So doctors start telling them, okay, what if I knock

1128
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 2: you out and you're not awake and we use electroshock therapy,

1129
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 2: you won't be aware of it or remember it. So

1130
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 2: some patients say, okay, we'll try it. Then some doctors though,

1131
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 2: and that's fine, right. I mean again, it some time improved.

1132
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 2: It's not by a good idea, but that's consent. If

1133
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 2: the doctors saying, hey, can I knock you unconscious and

1134
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 2: use ECT on you, and you say yes, that's that's consent, right,

1135
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 2: Some doctors are like, well, if they're already unconscious, why

1136
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 2: don't I need to get consent? I need to shock

1137
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 2: them like them, I'll just do it. You know what

1138
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 2: are they gonna do? Right, Well, they'll we barred the

1139
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 2: fuck out if they say, why did you do ect

1140
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 2: on me, I'll say, you agreed to it while you

1141
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 2: were barred the fuck out.

1142
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 3: That's what I was gonna say.

1143
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 4: Are they are they later saying that they did it,

1144
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 4: or is the person like not aware that that's what happened.

1145
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 2: Usually often people don't find out, and when they do,

1146
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 2: they're generally because we have a good amount. Generally, when

1147
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 2: they find out and complain, they're told, no, no, you

1148
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 2: agreed to this, you know right, here's the paperwork. Right.

1149
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 2: So this is not a high point for medical ethics.

1150
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: Doctor Donald Cameron, the famous Canadian. Yeah. Doctor Donald Cameron,

1151
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,320
Speaker 2: the famous Canadian physician who experimented with deep sleep therapy,

1152
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 2: was later criticized for drugging and shocking patients without their

1153
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 2: consent and exploring practical torture techniques. As a psychiatrist. He

1154
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 2: was advising I think the government on how to tour

1155
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 2: how theoretically torture should work.

1156
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,439
Speaker 3: Right, Oh, theoretically yeah.

1157
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 2: Doctor William Sargent, the prominent UK physician that I mentioned earlier,

1158
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 2: wrote this about electrocuting patients without their consent in a

1159
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 2: medical textbook that was published in nineteen seventy two. Many

1160
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 2: it's really recent here's Billy Sarge. Many patients unable to

1161
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 2: tolerate a long course of ECT can do so when

1162
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 2: anxiety is relieved by narcosis. What is so valuable is

1163
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 2: that they generally have no memory about the actual length

1164
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 2: of the treatment or the numbers of ECT used. After

1165
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 2: three or four treatments without narcosis, they may ask for

1166
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 2: ECT to be discontinued because of an increasing dread of

1167
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:52,280
Speaker 2: further treatments. Combining sleep with ECT avoids this all sorts

1168
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 2: of treatment can be given if while the patient has

1169
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,200
Speaker 2: kept sleeping, including a variety of drugs and ECT, which

1170
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 2: together generally induced considerable memory law for the period under narcosis.

1171
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 2: As a rule, the patient does not know how long

1172
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,240
Speaker 2: he has been asleep or what treatment, even including ECT,

1173
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 2: he has been given. Under sleep. One can now give

1174
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 2: many kinds of physical treatment necessary but often not easily tolerated.

1175
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 2: We may be seeing here a new exciting beginning in

1176
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 2: psychiatry and the possibility of a treatment era such as

1177
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 2: followed the introduction of anesthesia to surgery. So Sergeant is

1178
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 2: saying DST is invaluable because sleep therapy in and of

1179
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: itself works. This is the future of all psychiatry, because

1180
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 2: the future of psychiatry is knocking your patient out and

1181
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 2: doing whatever the fuck you want to them until you

1182
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 2: fix them.

1183
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 4: Well, one, how do you even define fixed? At that point,

1184
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 4: you're just like a blank and.

1185
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 2: I got a lot of questions.

1186
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 3: Well sure, yeah, I'm asking yes, right.

1187
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 4: And two, your body still remembers, like you if someone

1188
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 4: broke your leg and then knocked you out, and then

1189
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 4: you woke up and your leg had been healed, you

1190
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 4: would still have effects of like a broken.

1191
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 2: Leg, right, right, Yes, Yes, the body keeps the score,

1192
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 2: which is certainly through in the case of a broken lake.

1193
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 2: Speaking of bodies, you know who's killed a lot of people,

1194
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 2: not the sponsors of this podcast. Here's ads and we're back.

1195
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,919
Speaker 2: So deep sleep therapy speaks to a powerful desire among

1196
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 2: many mental health care practitioners. We want to be able

1197
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: to treat our patients under the hood without interference from

1198
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 2: their conscious subjections or comments. Jesus, this brings us Yeah,

1199
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 2: not great, This brings us back to doctor Harry Bailey.

1200
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 2: Bailey became aware of doctor Sergeant and his methods while

1201
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 2: he was doing his fifteen month world tour with the

1202
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 2: who He worked alongside doctor sergeant for a period of

1203
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 2: time and observed him treating his patients. When Bailey returned

1204
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 2: to Australia, he was full to bursting with exciting new ideas.

1205
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 2: He quickly convened Callan par Our Mental Hospital to establish

1206
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 2: a cerebral surgery and research unit, which opened in nineteen

1207
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 2: fifty seven with him as the director.

1208
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: Can we talk about how menacing doctor sergeant sounds?

1209
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 3: You said, it's times and I was like, ooh, I

1210
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 3: don't know about that guy.

1211
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 2: What I would like to find is a guy with

1212
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 2: the last named sergeant to make him to a doctor,

1213
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 2: and then a guy with the last named doctor, and

1214
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 2: you have him join the military and becomes a sergeant.

1215
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 2: And then you've got doctor sergeant and sergeant doctor and

1216
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 2: they get married. Yeah I don't yeah, I don't know

1217
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 2: what to do after that point, but yeah, there you go,

1218
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 2: and they get married and hyphenate their names. So it's

1219
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 2: now doctor sergeant doctor and sergeant doctor sergeant. The dream,

1220
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 2: The dream, The Dream. Bailey begins experimenting with new ect methods,

1221
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 2: often using various barbituates en downers to knock patients unconscious.

1222
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 2: First for doctor Philipicky Sergeant and Bailey would mail each

1223
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 2: other bragging about how many patients they'd knocked out each week,

1224
00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 2: keeping score like Gimli and Legolis during the Battle of Health.

1225
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 2: It's deep like they're literally being like, ahh, here's so

1226
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 2: many people I put into a coma this week. Oh man,

1227
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,439
Speaker 2: you're falling behind. Better knock some more people out, which

1228
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 2: you might think maybe leads to them knocking people unconscious

1229
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 2: and drugging them who don't need it at all, even

1230
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 2: under their own standards, just because they want to win

1231
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 2: a contest. Maybe. So this all seems pretty fucked up

1232
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 2: a lot of what we've talked about, but I gotta

1233
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 2: say what Sergeant and Bailey are doing is still fairly

1234
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 2: widely accepted behavior within their professional circles, not all of them,

1235
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 2: but within psychiatry generally speaking, this is not controversial at

1236
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 2: this point in time. It's certainly not something people are

1237
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 2: angry about. There is the general criticism of deep sleep therapy.

1238
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 2: But doctor Sergeant and doctor Bailey are both award winning,

1239
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 2: prominent and respected members of the of the profession within

1240
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 2: their field within their countries.

1241
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 4: Now do you know what if those same medications were

1242
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 4: being used for other stuff?

1243
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 3: Like were they giving two tons yes, like.

1244
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 4: Were they they were giving you benzos for like physical

1245
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 4: ailments and other things like Okay.

1246
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 2: One of the reasons why it's so hard to get

1247
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 2: benzos now is that from the fifties through the seventies,

1248
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 2: they were handing them out like fucking candy, especially to

1249
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 2: like depressed housewives who also drank, because it was the

1250
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 2: fifties and sixties, and so a shitload of people lost

1251
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 2: their moms because they would overdose on benzos and alcohol.

1252
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 2: It happened to fuck load.

1253
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 3: And you're not talking about depression.

1254
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 4: I'm talking about like, do they give ammal barbital to

1255
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 4: someone who's like, my kidney's hurt.

1256
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, no, you wouldn't.

1257
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 3: I mean all psychiatric.

1258
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 2: It's I think you I think there is a degree

1259
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 2: because some of these, some of these are used before

1260
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 2: surgery and stuff. So yes, some of these I don't

1261
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 2: know if it's ammal barbitaal, but some of the stuff

1262
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 2: the use in this cocktail are used to help knock

1263
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 2: people out for other procedures, right, because they're they're good

1264
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 2: for that, yes, okay, but no, someone's probably not getting

1265
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 2: prescribed ammo barbitol because like they've got a fucking stomach

1266
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 2: ache or whatever. That would be kind of weird. So

1267
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 2: one of the issues at this point in time, and

1268
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 2: it's still somewhat of an issue today, but it's much

1269
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 2: worse back then, is that to people outside of the

1270
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 2: medical system, including people in the government, mental health care

1271
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 2: is basically a black box. No one really knows what

1272
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 2: goes on in these facilities that doesn't work or get

1273
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 2: admitted to them, and the people who don't work or

1274
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 2: get admitted to these facilities kind of don't want to

1275
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 2: know anything about them, right, So doctor Bailey is primarily

1276
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 2: the only people who know what he's doing are his peers,

1277
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 2: and they love him. He receives the Norton Manning Memorial

1278
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 2: Prize for psychiatry, as I said, and then yeah, a

1279
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 2: prize for pediatrics. Per the Australian Encyclopedia of Biography, his

1280
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 2: reputation high. In nineteen fifty nine, Bailey was appointed medical

1281
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 2: superintendent of Callan Park, a large institution suffering from years

1282
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 2: of neglect in a culture of confinement. He proved to

1283
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 2: be an impatient reformer. Within a few months, he submitted

1284
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 2: a report to the Public Service Board with detailed allegations

1285
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 2: of staff cruelty, patient neglect, and daily pilfering from hospital stores.

1286
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 2: Subsequent police and Department of Public Health investigations found nothing

1287
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 2: to substantiate the charges. Undeterred, Bailey, blue the whistle and

1288
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 2: dramatic newspaper headlines embarrassed the heffern government, particularly the responsible

1289
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:09,040
Speaker 2: Minister William Shan. Despite the resulting Royal Commission reporting to

1290
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 2: Callan Park by John McClements confirmed many of Bailey's allegations,

1291
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 2: while concluding that some are exaggerated. So he's looking pretty

1292
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 2: good at this point. Right, he's a whistle blower. There's

1293
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 2: real problems of this facility, but you're also seeing some

1294
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 2: of the signs of the later problem. This guy's going

1295
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 2: to be because even though there's real problems that he's

1296
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 2: right about, he's lying too. He's pretending stuff's worse than

1297
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 2: it is. He's exaggerating. He's kind of a showman. He

1298
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 2: likes drama. Right. He's also got this problem of he's

1299
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 2: he knowingly judges up or just the truth or just lies,

1300
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 2: but he also gets very convinced of his own rightness

1301
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 2: and righteousness, and even when people around him are convinced

1302
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 2: he's wrong, that just convinces him further that he's right

1303
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 2: and in this case that's a good thing because this

1304
01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 2: hospital did need to be investigated. But that's not going

1305
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 2: to be the case much lofe longer. Yeah.

1306
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's like, he's like, it's not gonna be bad

1307
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 4: enough to tell them this one thing, so I'll just

1308
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 4: make up a bunch of stuff and then it will

1309
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 4: be undeniable.

1310
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 2: Right right, right. And one of the issues here is

1311
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 2: that this is a good thing he does, and it

1312
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 2: makes him one of the most famous doctors in Australia

1313
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 2: at the time because he's in the news, or at

1314
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 2: least in New South Wales at the time, because he's

1315
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 2: in the news a lot, because it's a big story

1316
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 2: that the shit get covered up. So you've got at

1317
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 2: this point, doctor Bailey is not just an award winning

1318
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 2: psychiatrist with widespread professional acclaim in several continents, but a

1319
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 2: crusading activist for medical ethics. Obviously, this is the guy

1320
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 2: you trust if your loved one needs mental health care.

1321
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 2: He's the best guy to go to. Doctor Bailey. After

1322
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 2: this point, Yeah, not gonna be good.

1323
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, too much power, Yep.

1324
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 2: The lesson here, folks is, if anyone ever does anything good.

1325
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 3: You need to look into it.

1326
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, look into it. Throw himTo the ocean. It's the

1327
01:04:57,440 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 2: instant someone does anything good, Toss him into the sea.

1328
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 3: You know, I just think, I just think it when

1329
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 3: you do that, like I see the merit of it,

1330
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 3: like he's trying. But when you do that, you don't.

1331
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 4: Get to the actual heart of the issues because you're

1332
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:15,560
Speaker 4: just compounding stuff. So like your actual thing that you're

1333
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 4: worried about doesn't it's not in the conversation because you're

1334
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 4: just making stuff up to have some serve sweeping you know.

1335
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, part of the issue is that, like doctor Bailey

1336
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 2: probably even did hamper the reform efforts by lying about shit.

1337
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 3: Yes, that's what I was trying to say.

1338
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, but regular people don't know shit about that.

1339
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 5: Right.

1340
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 2: He's the hero doctor. So he starts a private practice

1341
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 2: and it's immediately a success. He's making a fuck load

1342
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 2: of money. Because I don't know if y'all have noticed this,

1343
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 2: but a lot of people don't trust doctors. And so

1344
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:50,440
Speaker 2: if you're the guy who's all over the news because

1345
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 2: he's the doctor who blew the whistle on a bunch

1346
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 2: of bad doctors, right, you might attract a really loyal

1347
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 2: following with people who don't trust doctors. This is kind

1348
01:05:59,960 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 2: of what happen, I mean, in a different way, this

1349
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 2: is kind of what Andrew Wakefield does, right. I mean

1350
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:06,760
Speaker 2: Wakefield doesn't ever actually bust any real problem. He doesn't

1351
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,920
Speaker 2: ever bring up any like solve any real problems. But

1352
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 2: he's a doctor who's trying to warn people about the

1353
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 2: bad other doctors. And if you're someone who doesn't trust

1354
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 2: a doctor, that's a really appealing kind of guy, right, Yeah, yep.

1355
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 2: Bailey is very appealing when he starts in private practice.

1356
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 2: This is nineteen sixty two when he begins his private practice,

1357
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 2: and in nineteen sixty three he works out a deal

1358
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 2: with two other doctors, Ian Gardner and John Gill to

1359
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 2: treat patients together at the Chelmsford Private Hospital. This is

1360
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 2: not a normal medical employment situation for doctor Bailey. Chelmsford

1361
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 2: was a small for profit hospital and Bailey had helped

1362
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 2: to fund it. He's a part owner in the hospital.

1363
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 2: The n essay on the website Waking dot Io. The

1364
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 2: financial arrangements revealed by the Royal Commission painted a picture

1365
01:06:57,240 --> 01:07:01,439
Speaker 2: of systemic exploitation. Bailey received both his standard consultation fees

1366
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 2: and a percentage of the hospital's revenue from each patient.

1367
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 2: He admitted this created a perverse incentive to extend treatment

1368
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 2: duration regardless of medical necessity, to admit patients with minor

1369
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 2: conditions who didn't require hospitalization, to discourage early discharge even

1370
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 2: when families requested it, and to maximize the use of

1371
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 2: expensive medications and procedures. Every time someone comes in and

1372
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 2: doctor Bailey he's like, Oh, he knows this person doesn't

1373
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 2: need to be hospitalized, but he tells him he need

1374
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 2: to be hospitalized for three days. He knows exactly how

1375
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 2: much of that money goes directly into his pocket, right,

1376
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 2: not just from seeing a patient, but from the He

1377
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 2: gets a cut of the cost of their treatment every time. Yeah,

1378
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 2: so every new thing he can stick on money in

1379
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 2: the bank. Right. Why wouldn't he use as much expensive

1380
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 2: drugs as possible and as many expensive right. That's part

1381
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 2: of why he's doing He likes ect on unconscious people

1382
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 2: is it allows him to charge for an expensive procedure

1383
01:07:57,960 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 2: that he doesn't have to get them to agree to,

1384
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:02,920
Speaker 2: and he can basically double his money on the fucking

1385
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:05,919
Speaker 2: sleep therapy. He doesn't even have to do it. Yeah,

1386
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 2: he can and he doesn't even have to do it

1387
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:09,960
Speaker 2: right right or have one of his other because he's

1388
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:12,240
Speaker 2: got other doctors here. He often has them do it right.

1389
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:16,720
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say it this doctor Bailey guy not

1390
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 1: great guy.

1391
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 3: Yep.

1392
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:21,600
Speaker 2: Uh So by the time he starts at Chelms for

1393
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 2: doctor Bailey considers deep sleep therapy to be more than

1394
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 2: just a subject of intellectual interest. It is the core

1395
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 2: of a financial enterprise that he is starting to build

1396
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 2: with DST. He can keep patients down four weeks at

1397
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 2: a time, and they're paying for every day in the hospital,

1398
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:37,920
Speaker 2: and you're getting money for every day they spend in

1399
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 2: the hospital. Doctor Bailey used his prestige in the fact

1400
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 2: that his hospital was the only one offering this treatment

1401
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 2: in the area to charge patients between four hundred and

1402
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 2: six hundred percent more than comparable treatments costs from other practitioners.

1403
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 2: He regularly kept people unconscious and sedated for days beyond

1404
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:56,760
Speaker 2: what his treatment plans suggested to maximize the amount of

1405
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 2: time he could build. Via that same essay quote, some

1406
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 2: families reported bills exceeding their annual income.

1407
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 4: Did the other doctors, the two other doctors that were

1408
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:09,719
Speaker 4: working with him, did they know that he was scamming.

1409
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, all several of the doctors at Chelmsford are directly implicated.

1410
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,720
Speaker 2: They are helping him. They are benefiting so one way

1411
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 2: or the other, benefiting as well from the scams. Yes,

1412
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 2: the other doctors are very implicated in this. Now, I

1413
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 2: don't know if they're fully aware, especially at the start

1414
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:31,080
Speaker 2: of how bad this is. There's some especially the doctors

1415
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:34,200
Speaker 2: and nurses working early on, might think they're really doing

1416
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 2: the best, because again we don't less is known, right,

1417
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 2: but he's doing this for almost twenty years. It becomes

1418
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 2: clear at a certain point this is just a grift

1419
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:47,639
Speaker 2: that's hurting people. Yeah, speaking of grifts that hurt people,

1420
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:48,640
Speaker 2: you know what my.

1421
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 3: Favorite grift is products and services.

1422
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:56,719
Speaker 2: No ending this podcast for the day because I'm tired.

1423
01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 2: We'll be back there, say with more to plug your

1424
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:01,719
Speaker 2: bluggables at the end, Hea though.

1425
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 3: Sure, Uh, these are what one would call my products

1426
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:05,759
Speaker 3: and services.

1427
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:06,639
Speaker 2: Uh, that's right.

1428
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 5: You can.

1429
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 4: You can go to my substack one thousand natural shocks

1430
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 4: dot substack dot com.

1431
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 3: There's also a just.

1432
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:14,720
Speaker 2: Like E C T. By the way.

1433
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, didn't even think that mine's a Hamlet reference.

1434
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 4: Because I'm unbearable and then there's the a thousand Natural

1435
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 4: Shocks podcast. I also do a podcast called Best Gabe

1436
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:28,040
Speaker 4: Ever that's more lighthearted.

1437
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 3: Uh, and that's and that's it.

1438
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 2: Yes, Gabe, I think I know how you and I

1439
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:34,320
Speaker 2: can make a shitload of money.

1440
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 3: Is it shocking people?

1441
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 2: Well, not not exactly. I'm a doctor in the state

1442
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:42,599
Speaker 2: of New Jersey. According to this plaque I received once,

1443
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 2: So we open a clinic and I get people huge

1444
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 2: doses of benzos to knock them out, and then instead

1445
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 2: of giving them electroshock therapy, we play your podcast of shocks.

1446
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:56,800
Speaker 4: Oh, I really say you're going to say we play

1447
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 4: r e m I really thought you were going to

1448
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 4: say we play No.

1449
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 2: No, incredible Michael Stide gets enough fucking money. All right, Gabe,

1450
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:08,680
Speaker 2: thank you very much. We'll be back with part two

1451
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 2: on Thursday's. Folks. Until then, go to Hell. I Love you.

1452
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:17,639
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1453
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1454
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:23,720
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1455
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes,

1456
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:30,799
Speaker 1: but Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping

1457
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 1: every Tuesday and Thursday. Kit remind me on Netflix you

1458
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 1: don't miss an episode. For clips and our older episode catalog,

1459
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 1: continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, YouTube dot com

1460
01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 1: slash at Behind the Bastards. We love about forty percent

1461
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:46,000
Speaker 1: of you, statistically speaking,