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Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth,

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Speaker 1: you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact, but the

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Speaker 1: people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working

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Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

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Speaker 1: is US Dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic

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Speaker 1: digestors to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy

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Speaker 1: that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. Visit usdairy

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Speaker 1: dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more. Hey, Jorgey, you're

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Speaker 1: a visual artist, so I have a question for you

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Speaker 1: about how you visualize things.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, thank you for calling me an artist.

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Speaker 3: Cartoonist don't usually get that kind of respect. But do

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Speaker 3: you mean can I draw my answer?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Maybe when we upgrade this podcast to a YouTube channel,

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Speaker 1: But until then, here's my question. What is the biggest

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Speaker 1: distance that you can visualize that you can sort of

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Speaker 1: see in your mind?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think anything bigger than the distance between my

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Speaker 3: bed and the fridge feels like an infinity. I guess

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Speaker 3: maybe like the biggest distance that I can wrap my

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Speaker 3: head around would be maybe like the size of the

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Speaker 3: solar system, you know, Like I think I have a

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Speaker 3: intuitive sense of that, but maybe anything bigger just kind

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Speaker 3: of blows my mind.

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Speaker 1: All right, So then turn it around, what is the

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Speaker 1: smallest distance that you can visualize.

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Speaker 3: Probably the width of a thinly sliced banana.

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Speaker 1: Feels like maybe you should have had a snack before

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Speaker 1: we did today's podcast.

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Speaker 3: I am more Hammer, a cartoonist and the creator of

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Speaker 3: PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I don't eat bananas,

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Speaker 1: no matter how can you slice them.

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Speaker 3: Really, you're anti banana like you avoid them.

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Speaker 1: I'm anti bananite. Yes, I would admit it here on

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Speaker 1: the air.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, how do we even get along all

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Speaker 1: these years?

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Speaker 3: I don't know if I can continue doing this with

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Speaker 3: you anymore. So if you get him in a salad

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Speaker 3: you picked them out or something?

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Speaker 1: Who puts banana in a salad? What are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: You were offending salads?

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Speaker 3: How far this is anti banana?

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Speaker 4: Is?

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Speaker 3: Goes go? Daniel?

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Speaker 1: Well, let's see, if I was dying of starvation next

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Speaker 1: to banana tree, I would eat some bananas. I'll put

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Speaker 1: it that way. I would.

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Speaker 3: I see. Oh, man, you don't know what you're missing.

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Speaker 3: But for those of you who are not anti banana,

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Speaker 3: welcome to this podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe,

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Speaker 3: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: And banana lovers and banana haters are all welcome on

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Speaker 1: this podcast.

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Speaker 3: Because we know only the lovers.

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Speaker 1: Because we all share the love of the universe and

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Speaker 1: the mystery is and the incredible cosmic questions like how

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Speaker 1: can anybody stand to eat a banana?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 1: Like how big is our universe? And does it all

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Speaker 1: make sense?

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Speaker 3: Should everybody daniel that bananas are part of the universe

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Speaker 3: If you love the universe, technically you love bananas.

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Speaker 1: But welcome to our podcast, in which we do try

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Speaker 1: to explore everything around us, including bananas and other delicious

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Speaker 1: or non delicious items, and explain how it all works

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we try to think about the bigness of the universe,

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Speaker 3: the limits of space and planets and stars, but we

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Speaker 3: also like to talk about the small things in life

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Speaker 3: and in the universe, and sometimes it really stretches your mind, right,

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Speaker 3: sort of in one conversation, think about how big the

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Speaker 3: universe is and how also how small things are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we try to take you on a tour

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Speaker 1: of the sort of current thinking of scientists. How do

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Speaker 1: scientists think about this stuff? How do they fit the

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Speaker 1: whole universe in their brain? What do they visualize when

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Speaker 1: they think about the inside of a black hole, or

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Speaker 1: how do scientists think about the very very tiny What

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Speaker 1: does a particle look like inside the mind of a

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Speaker 1: particle physicist?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because you know, we know that the universe is

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Speaker 3: made out of tiny little particles, and we like to

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Speaker 3: say tiny little particles, but I guess you don't often

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Speaker 3: think about it what tiny really means.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And we do this a lot when we think

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Speaker 1: about the quantum realm. We try to sort of use

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Speaker 1: the ideas we have from our everyday experience and apply

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Speaker 1: them to particles, apply them to these tiny little bits

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Speaker 1: so that we can make sense of them, because you

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Speaker 1: can't see these things directly, so you have to sort

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Speaker 1: of build a mental picture, and we try to talk

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Speaker 1: about how they have mass and charge, and we even

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Speaker 1: give them, you know, labor and spin and other sorts

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Speaker 1: of things that we're familiar with from our world. But

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Speaker 1: you have to wonder, like, how well does that really work?

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Speaker 1: Is it really relevant or is the quantum realm just

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Speaker 1: totally alien and we will never really get our minds

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Speaker 1: around it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I thought we had already decided that everything looks

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Speaker 3: like lego pieces down at the fundamental level. They don't

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Speaker 3: look like little blocks with circles that say Lego on them.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's easy to do a test. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you step on them and they cause you great pain,

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Speaker 1: then they definitely are the shape of lego pieces.

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Speaker 3: I think they make round legos too, now, Dan.

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Speaker 1: Finally to save parents. But you know, this is all

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Speaker 1: we can do as humans is we can take the

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Speaker 1: ideas we're familiar with and we can try to map

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Speaker 1: them down to the quantum realm to think about this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and sometimes that intuition kind of fails, right, or

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Speaker 3: it breaks down when you get down to that quantum realm,

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Speaker 3: that quantum level. Right, our ideas of what something is,

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Speaker 3: or how solid something is, or what shape it has,

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Speaker 3: it al sort of breaks down into kind of mathematical

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Speaker 3: gooply gooped right down at the quantum space.

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Speaker 1: I think it has a little bit more substance than

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Speaker 1: mathematical Goopli group. But really it's a bit more at No,

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Speaker 1: it's a bit more poetic than mathema. Sometimes, I see

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Speaker 1: because we try to equations, well, we try to draw connections,

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Speaker 1: like we talk about quantum spin, and we fully admit

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Speaker 1: that these particles are not actually spinning, but they're doing

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Speaker 1: something that is very much like spin. It has a

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Speaker 1: lot of similar characteristics, and so we draw this analogy.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is one of the most beautiful

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Speaker 1: things about physics, is trying to describe the unknown in

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Speaker 1: terms of the known. You know, that's what language is,

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Speaker 1: that's what art is, that's what that's what it means.

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Speaker 1: To explore the universe is to express it in a

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Speaker 1: way that we can understand it. And so that's all

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Speaker 1: we can do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, are you saying you don't understand googly goog?

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Speaker 1: I'm saying googly goop suggests some lack of understanding or nonsense,

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Speaker 1: whereas in its place there are some elegant intellectual structures

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Speaker 1: to guide your mind.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I see, you know potato potato legan theoretical structure

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Speaker 3: is googly goog. It's all. It's all, you know, different names.

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Speaker 3: But so to the other podcast, we thought we would

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Speaker 3: take a trip down to that quantum level and kind

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Speaker 3: of think about a particular object that I think we're

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Speaker 3: all familiar with and to sort of challenge our understanding

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Speaker 3: of what it looks like and what shape it has,

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Speaker 3: and most importantly, what size it has.

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Speaker 1: Down at the quantum lew And this is something that

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Speaker 1: I have struggled with as a particle physicist, just trying

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Speaker 1: to visualize, just trying to conceptualize it. How do I

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Speaker 1: put this in my mind? How do I think about

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Speaker 1: this so I can get some intuition right?

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Speaker 3: And so today we'll be tackling the question how big

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Speaker 3: is an electron.

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Speaker 1: Or how small is an electron?

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Speaker 3: Oh man, is this another potato patata thing? It's big

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Speaker 3: and small depending on which country.

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Speaker 1: The representatives of the Electron Union prefer to be called

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Speaker 1: big rather than small.

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Speaker 3: Oh I see, But what does the electron itself prefer?

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Speaker 3: Does it see itself as as a big or a little?

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Speaker 1: Interview with an Electron speculated fiction novel by Hohm.

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Speaker 3: The winner of the Nobel Price in literature and physics

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Speaker 3: at the same time. But yeah, you know, electrons are everywhere.

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Speaker 3: They're one of the three fundamental particles that make up

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Speaker 3: everything that we are, that you are, that planets and

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Speaker 3: stars and galaxies and dust are made out of. And

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Speaker 3: so it's an important particle. And it makes your cell

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Speaker 3: phone work, which without which you would probably not be

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Speaker 3: listening to this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it sort of sits at the frontier of

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Speaker 1: particle physics. Our goal is to explain everything in the

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Speaker 1: universe in terms of the smallest bits and pieces, the tiniest,

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Speaker 1: roundest lego pieces anywhere, And as far as we know,

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Speaker 1: these are the smallest bits. And so we wonder, like,

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Speaker 1: is it made of something smaller? How small is this thing? Anyway? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: What's the size of an electron? I guess that's a

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Speaker 3: question we haven't really talked about before. We just sort

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Speaker 3: of talked about electrons and what they can do and

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Speaker 3: what they do, and we know they're small. But I

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Speaker 3: guess the question here is how small it is or

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Speaker 3: how big is it?

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Speaker 2: Not?

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Speaker 1: How big isn't it? Yeah, And like with many of

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Speaker 1: the these mappings to the quantum realm, I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: you're going to be dissatisfied with the.

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Speaker 3: Answer because did you misname something again? Is it not

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Speaker 3: really called? Is it like an electron? Not really an electron?

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to give it away the end,

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Speaker 1: you'll have to stick around for another half hour.

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Speaker 3: Well, this is a question that as always, we were

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Speaker 3: wondering how many people out there had thought about or

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Speaker 3: wondered about and what they knew about the answer to

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Speaker 3: this question. So, as usual, Daniel went out there into

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Speaker 3: the out wilderness of the streets of Irvine, California, and

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Speaker 3: ask people how big they thought an electron is.

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Speaker 1: I like the way you make it sound dangerous, like

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Speaker 1: I'm hacking my way through the jungle.

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Speaker 3: I think talking to perfect strangers sounds terrifying to me.

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Speaker 1: Well, here's what people had to say. But before you

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Speaker 1: hear these answers, think to yourself, what would you guess?

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Speaker 1: Is the size of an electron? Very small?

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Speaker 3: I know, like a couple of billion atoms can fit

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Speaker 3: on a period in a book.

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Speaker 1: So an electron is chilliing a jillian. I don't know

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Speaker 1: sentiments like small, like smaller than that? Best, guess like

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Speaker 1: ten to minus one hundred, like on a hundredth.

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Speaker 3: Of a nanometer ten to the minus sixteen. Well, I

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Speaker 3: guess it's one. It's way function falls off as one

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Speaker 3: over EA or.

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Speaker 1: Something like that. Is that how we want to call it?

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Speaker 3: What's thirteen point six evs in nanometers?

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Speaker 1: I'll take that.

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Speaker 5: It does red stuff, So a couple hundred nanometers let's

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Speaker 5: do with that? All right?

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Speaker 2: Cool?

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Speaker 3: Also, no idea, yes, not that big? Ten to the

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Speaker 3: negative on all eleven or twelve or something like that, like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: meters all right, some pretty I feel like, pretty educated answers,

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Speaker 3: Like some people were talking about electron worlds.

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Speaker 1: Even I like the guy who says smaller than a centimeter,

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Speaker 1: like yeah, that's that's true.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and also correct, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Definitely correct. No, we shouldn't make fun of these people.

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Speaker 1: They are giving us their time and their energy, and

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Speaker 1: so it's fun just to just to know what people

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Speaker 1: have in their minds. And I think one of the

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Speaker 1: common answers is like ten to the minus a pretty

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Speaker 1: big number.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, no, I thought they were pretty I guess

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Speaker 3: you're at a at a university, so maybe a lot

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Speaker 3: of these folks just think in physics or something. But

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Speaker 3: you know, if you ask me, I don't know if

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Speaker 3: I would guess with exact figures or units.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because if you asked me, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what I would say. It's a tricky question. Even

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Speaker 1: what is the meaning of the question, Like what does

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Speaker 1: it mean for the electron to have a size? So

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Speaker 1: it's complicated.

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Speaker 3: So someone interviewed on you on the street and ask

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Speaker 3: you this question, you'd be like, let's sit down for

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Speaker 3: a couple of hours, exactly. Let me pull out my whiteboard.

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Speaker 1: I say thank you for asking that question. And you

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Speaker 1: see the panic in their eyes as they.

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Speaker 3: I've been waiting all my life.

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Speaker 1: Perfect strangers, they would feign a phone call and run

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Speaker 1: away quickly.

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Speaker 3: All right, well, let's get into the trying to answer

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Speaker 3: this question. And I guess the first thing is that

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Speaker 3: you're telling me is that this is even it's kind

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Speaker 3: of almost a philosophical question. It's like a tricky question

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Speaker 3: in itself to ask what is the size of an electron?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to be really careful about what

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Speaker 1: you're doing. When you're asking a question that you're used

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Speaker 1: to asking about macroscopic stuff and then applying that to

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Speaker 1: microscopic stuff, you have to be really careful about what

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Speaker 1: you mean and what exactly it is you're trying to learn.

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Speaker 1: You know, like when we think about a ball moving

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Speaker 1: through space, we can talk about its velocity. Cool, But

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Speaker 1: when you want to talk about the velocity of an electron,

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Speaker 1: it's more complicated because it doesn't have like the same

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Speaker 1: kind of path, and so it's velocity changes, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: you can know it, sometimes it's unknown, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: there's an analogy you can make there, but you have

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Speaker 1: to be careful about exactly what you're asking. And the

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Speaker 1: same is true when you ask about the size of

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Speaker 1: something super duper tiny.

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Speaker 3: Right, and especially when you ask about the size of

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Speaker 3: a single thing, right, Like, what does it? What does

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Speaker 3: it even mean to ask about the size of anything?

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Speaker 3: Is it like how much space you occupy? Is it

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Speaker 3: like the my longest dimension? Is it the distance between

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Speaker 3: you know, one one side of me to the other

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Speaker 3: side of me.

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Speaker 1: I think that's it. I think it's the distance between

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Speaker 1: your edges. And so you have a size if you

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Speaker 1: have edges that don't touch, right, if you have if

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Speaker 1: there's a meaning to you, like there being a left

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Speaker 1: of you and a right of view, and your size

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Speaker 1: is the distance between them. You know, we have a

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Speaker 1: meter stick, how big is it? Well, the left side

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Speaker 1: is one meter from the right side, So that sort

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Speaker 1: of makes sense, right, And this this all sounds, you know, obvious,

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Speaker 1: but it's going to be important when we get to

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Speaker 1: the quantum realm to be thinking about it in the

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Speaker 1: same same sort of set of ideas.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I guess you got to think about what

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Speaker 3: makes it a thing and when does it stop being

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Speaker 3: a thing? And then then you canfulate kind of the

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Speaker 3: distance between the edges of what is and what is

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Speaker 3: not a thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so you answer the question like what a

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Speaker 1: size mean, Well, it's the distance between the edges, and

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Speaker 1: that immediately bringing seed to that other question, what is

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Speaker 1: the edge? Like what is the edge of a meter

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Speaker 1: stick or the edge of a banana? How do you

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Speaker 1: define where that stops? And that's not so easy.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, you just make me imagine it endless banana

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Speaker 3: and I salivate it a little bit.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole universe for you right there. Man, maybe

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Speaker 1: the whole universe is just one banana. We are all

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Speaker 1: just bananinos in a banana.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we should start that in the restaurant. You know,

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Speaker 3: Olive Garden has the endless bowl of salad, endless breadstick.

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Speaker 3: We can start selling the endless banana. But anyways, so.

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Speaker 1: Where is the edge of the banana?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 1: You would think, oh, I'm looking at it, I can

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Speaker 1: tell where it stops. And you either you poke it

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Speaker 1: or you're just looking at it.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: It sort of gives you a sense for like where

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Speaker 1: the edge is.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't have a fuzzy edge like it stops the

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Speaker 3: all the atoms that make up the banana are kind

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Speaker 3: of stuck together, and at some point there aren't any

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Speaker 3: more of the atoms that make up the banana.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, although if you zoom in close enough, right, everything

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00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,800
Speaker 1: that's not an absolute zero has a bit of a

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Speaker 1: fuzzy edge, you know, it's like boiling off atoms. Like

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Speaker 1: the reason you can smell a banana is that there

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Speaker 1: are volatile molecules on it that are always leaving, and

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Speaker 1: so zoom in close enough and there's a bit of

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Speaker 1: a fuzzy edge there. But still you can like take

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Speaker 1: a stick and you can poke the banana with your

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Speaker 1: tiny stick, and you can ask, like, when does the

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Speaker 1: banana give me resistance? What is the edge of it?

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Speaker 1: Is sort of like, you know, where does it push back?

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Speaker 3: Okay, so that would be the edge of like an

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Speaker 3: object microscopic op you're saying, it has to do with

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Speaker 3: when it no longer interacts with you in the same

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Speaker 3: way as the rest of the banana.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's an important idea there, I think, which

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Speaker 1: is it's not where the stuff of the banana ends,

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Speaker 1: it's where the banana's forces push back, because you know,

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Speaker 1: the banana itself is mostly made of these we'll talk

353
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Speaker 1: about it in a minute, but much smaller particles and

354
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Speaker 1: the stuff of the banana. The thing that gives it

355
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Speaker 1: its volume is the forces. Right, if there were no

356
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 1: forces between these particles, they will collapse to a much

357
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Speaker 1: smaller pile. Like you just made a pile of all

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Speaker 1: the atoms inside the banana, it would be almost invisible.

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Speaker 1: Most of that volume comes from them spacing each other

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Speaker 1: out by the forces. So it's really the forces, the

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00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 1: pushing back that gives the banana its volume and therefore

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Speaker 1: its size.

363
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Speaker 3: You wouldn't measure it as between the center of the

364
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,679
Speaker 3: rightmost atom of the banana to the center of the

365
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 3: leftmost atom of the banana. You would extend that a

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Speaker 3: little bit to include like when that atom starts pushing

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Speaker 3: back another atom that tries to poke through the banana.

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Speaker 1: Precisely because if you bring your stick nearby, then the farthest,

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00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,280
Speaker 1: the most extreme atom in your stick is not going

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Speaker 1: to touch the nucleus of that atom in your banana.

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00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,280
Speaker 1: They're going to push against each other before they touch.

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Speaker 1: And so that's why I think of sort of the

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Speaker 1: edge of the banana is that force veil that sort

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Speaker 1: of protects it from external forces.

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00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,480
Speaker 3: Okay, so you're saying, as a physicist, you would define

376
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,919
Speaker 3: the size of something as as the edges of it,

377
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,639
Speaker 3: and the edges you would define is when they start

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Speaker 3: pushing other things from going through it.

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00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. So really it's more about interactions than it is

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Speaker 1: about matter itself. And particle physics, we think a lot

381
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 1: about particles and forces, matter and interactions, and I think

382
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Speaker 1: the size of something really depends more on its interactions

383
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Speaker 1: then on the stuff that's inside of it.

384
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Speaker 3: And that makes sense because if you want to know

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Speaker 3: the size of something, you want to know it for

386
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Speaker 3: a reason usually right, Like you want to see if

387
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Speaker 3: the banana fits inside of a special you know, banana

388
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 3: carrying case that you are designing. You need to know

389
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Speaker 3: you know, not when the set where the centers of

390
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,000
Speaker 3: the atoms are, but you want to know, you know,

391
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Speaker 3: if you can fit the banana inside the case.

392
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Speaker 1: That's exactly it. But it already raises some problems like

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00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,199
Speaker 1: what if you had a blob of dark batter the

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Speaker 1: shape of a banana, how big is it? Well, if

395
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,720
Speaker 1: you can't really interact with it, if you could like

396
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,159
Speaker 1: put your finger through it, then you know, does that

397
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,960
Speaker 1: mean that it's a banana shaped and blob of dark batter.

398
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,400
Speaker 3: Is smaller, doesn't have a size maybe even boy.

399
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it gets it gets tricky pretty quickly. This thing,

400
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,360
Speaker 1: which which we thought was simple, is actually turns out

401
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:52,119
Speaker 1: to be kind of subtle.

402
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's feel back the answer to this question and

403
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,160
Speaker 3: also get into how big an atom is, and then

404
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 3: we'll get into how big an electron is. But first

405
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:01,720
Speaker 3: let's take a quick break.

406
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Speaker 3: All right, Daniels, So it seems like the question of

456
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 3: how big something is is kind of fuzzy in itself,

457
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 3: and so maybe a good way to kind of tackle

458
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 3: it is to start with the next level down from

459
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 3: a banana which is like how big is one of

460
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 3: the atoms in the banana.

461
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,439
Speaker 1: So remember that we decided that if we're going to

462
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,199
Speaker 1: talk about the size of the atom, we're not going

463
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: to ask where is the stuff inside of it? We're

464
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 1: going to ask where does it push back when it's

465
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 1: poked and figure that out. It's helpful to sort of

466
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 1: imagine a whole pile of atoms packed together. Here you

467
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 1: have like imagine the banana is sort of like a crystal.

468
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: You know, it's like closely packed atoms of the banana.

469
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 1: And here it's determined again by the interactions between them,

470
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 1: Like how closely packed are they depends on how much

471
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: they resist being squeezed together. And in this case, for

472
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 1: an atom, it's you know, for a banana. For other stuff,

473
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty small. It's like, you know, fifty to

474
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: a couple hundred trillionths of a meter.

475
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 3: Is what how you you would define how big anatom is.

476
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like this the separation between the center of

477
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 1: one atom and the center of another atom. Depending on

478
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: the material, and different things can sort of pack more

479
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: tightly together than other things. Like hydrogen you can squeez

480
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: down to like thirty trillionths of an atom between protons,

481
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 1: But if you're packing lead together, for example, it's almost

482
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: two hundred trillionths of a meter between sort of the

483
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 1: centers of the nuclei.

484
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 3: It's like if you were trying to measure the size

485
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 3: of a bunch of marbles, you would stick them in

486
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 3: a container and see how many you can sort of

487
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,719
Speaker 3: cramp together, and that kind of tells you the size

488
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 3: of each marble.

489
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, the distance between the centers of the marbles. There,

490
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: you pack them as closely as you can, and then

491
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: you measure the distance between the centers of the marbles.

492
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 3: Is that actually sort of because you know, when I

493
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 3: think of an atom, I think of like, you know,

494
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 3: like the popular culture drawing of an atom, which is like,

495
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 3: you know, little balls in the center and then electrons

496
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 3: flying around in orbit. You know, you know, and I

497
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: know that you know they're actually like electron clouds. But

498
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 3: even the clouds have sort of a size, right, they're

499
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 3: drawn as little balloons that stick out of this center.

500
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 3: Is the size is the packing size that you're talking about,

501
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 3: Like how many you can crame in a banana the

502
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 3: same as the size of those like electron clouds.

503
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very closely connected. And for a reason, those

504
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 1: electrons are the reason that the atoms don't pack more

505
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: closely together, Like you bring two hydrogen atoms near each other.

506
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: It's the electron clouds that determine how closely they get

507
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: together because they form like a covalent bond and make

508
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: an H two or something like that. And so it's

509
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,919
Speaker 1: those electrons that determine the interactions between the atoms and

510
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: determine their spacing. And it's when those two things start

511
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: overlapping is when they can no longer really get closer together. So, yeah,

512
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: the size of the electron cloud is very closely connected

513
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: to the size of the atom. It really is what

514
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: defines it.

515
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 3: They're always interacting, right, no matter how far apart there are,

516
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 3: Like if I had an hydrogen atom here and you

517
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 3: had a hydrogen atom in Jupiter. Technically they're sort of

518
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 3: repelling each other, right, and or attracting each other or not.

519
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 1: They definitely do feel each other, You're right. The extent

520
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: of the electromagnetic force is infinite, So there are electrons

521
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: in Alpha centauri that are pulling on you or pushing

522
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: on you, or depending on whatever they're doing.

523
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 3: Technically, touching you. Right, You're being touched by an Alpha

524
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 3: centauri right now.

525
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: Ooh, I just got chills down my spine a little

526
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 1: bit to the left. Please, yes, thank you.

527
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 3: That's funny. Just crushed that edge that I've had.

528
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's a tricky concept. You're right. If we're

529
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: going to define size by sort of how you respond

530
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: when you get poked, then you're right. You're being constantly

531
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: poked by everything in the universe.

532
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 3: Wow, even the stuff like a build bazillion light years way.

533
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Everything in the universe is feeling you.

534
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: Although you know there's a time delay there, so the

535
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: stuff in Alpha Centauri is only feeling. Stuff is feeling

536
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: where we were a long time ago as a separate issue.

537
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: So my size depends on time as well.

538
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: Geez, but it you know, those things are pretty negligible,

539
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: and so you can think about like when these things

540
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: really have an effect. If you probe if you shot

541
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: an electron at hydrogen atom, when would it deflect the electron?

542
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 1: And if you shot it, you know, a meter to

543
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: the right, it wouldn't change the path of the electron

544
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 1: really at all.

545
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 3: It would, but just it would be very little.

546
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: It'd be very little bit negligible, but then when you

547
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 1: you know, hit it right on and it's going to

548
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: bounce right back, and so you can use that to

549
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: sort of get a sense for what is the meaningful

550
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: sort of charge radius of a particle. And you're right,

551
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: there's no crisp edge there. So there's a small complication

552
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: there also because it turns out that the size of

553
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 1: something depends on not just what you poke it with,

554
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: but how hard you poke it. Like, if you poke

555
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: an atom very gently, it'll seem bigger because you'll notice

556
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: smaller deflections further away. If you poke it very hard,

557
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: it will actually seem smaller because you'll overpower the electrons

558
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: on the outside and only see the nucleus on the inside.

559
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 1: There's no point at which it goes to zero though, you're.

560
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 3: Right, right, yeah, so it's kind of fuzzy and maybe

561
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 3: kind of arbitrary, but you're saying it's like when when

562
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 3: you would actually feel the force that electron, that's when

563
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 3: maybe you would say, all right, it's sort of impinging

564
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 3: on it, which means it's sort of bumping up against it.

565
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, And it's not totally arbitrary, like when you

566
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: squeeze atoms together, they settle in at a certain distance

567
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: from each other. So that tells you what the equilibrium

568
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: location is for the distance between atoms, and that I

569
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: think is a reasonable way to define the size. But

570
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: you know, you're right, you have to think about, like

571
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: what am I meaning by size in this context? In

572
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: this other context? This basic thing we think about like

573
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: should be obvious to talk about is it turns out

574
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: to have a lot of wrinkles to it.

575
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 3: All right, So that's kind of how you would define

576
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 3: an atom is when it starts to push back another atom?

577
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: And how much when you cry them inside of a box?

578
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: You know, what's the natural spacing that they have between them?

579
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: And it's you're saying sort of related to those electron clouds,

580
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 3: which is how kind of how far away the electron

581
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: goes from the nuclei right from the nucleus. M Okay,

582
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: So that's that's an atom. But I guess it gets

583
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: strict when you talk about individual particles. And so let's

584
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 3: go down one more level to the proton inside of

585
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 3: the nucleus. How big? How big would you say a

586
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 3: proton is?

587
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: This is a wonderful question, and you know, if you're

588
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: breaking open the atom. If you're shooting electrons at the atom,

589
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: it's going to get repelled by the electrons on the

590
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: outside of it. But if you give them enough energy,

591
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: then they can sort of penetrate through there, and then

592
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: you could start to probe the proton inside there, and

593
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 1: you can ask, like, how big is this thing? And

594
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: so we do that exactly. We shoot electrons at protons

595
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: or hygen atoms, or it doesn't really matter if the

596
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: electron is there anymore, because the probe we're shooting with

597
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: has so much energy, and we see where does it

598
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: bounce back and where does it sort of stop bouncing back,

599
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: and that gives us a sense for how big the

600
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: proton is, and so we actually have a number for that.

601
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: But it's tricky because the proton is also made out

602
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 3: of things inside of it, sort of like the atom

603
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 3: itself it is.

604
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: Protons are made of smaller bits that are sloshing around

605
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: inside of it. Those are the quarks. But remember that

606
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: we're trying to define the size of an object, the

607
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: proton in this case, not by where the stuff is

608
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: inside it, but where it pushes back, and the quarks

609
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: hang out together and push back against the other protons

610
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 1: so if we use our definition, it's the distance between

611
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: the protons that's going to determine the size of the protons.

612
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: And that's connected, of course to how the quarks are arranged,

613
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: how they're happy to be inside the proton. The proton

614
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: is sort of like a quark atom.

615
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: I see if they were comfortable being a mile apart,

616
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 3: you know, like if you try to split it more

617
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 3: than a mile or squish it more than out, they

618
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: would prefer to be a mile up apart from each other.

619
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 3: Now you would say the size of those two electron

620
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 3: quarks is about a mile.

621
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: Oh, the size of the proton that's made up of

622
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: those quarks, yeah, it would be about a mile. But

623
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: you know, we have nuclei and they have got protons

624
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: and neutrons inside of them, and each one is like

625
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: its own little particle. They get squeezed together, but they

626
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: hang out. They keep their own little particle nature, and

627
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: so it's just like packing marbles together. You can ask

628
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 1: about the distance between the center of one proton and another,

629
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 1: or a proton and a neutron. That's what we think

630
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: of it. The size of the proton.

631
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 3: How much can you pack in the quarts that are

632
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: inside of the proton.

633
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a really crazy number. That's like one

634
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: quadrillionth of a meter. It's a really small number.

635
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 3: And that's smaller than a nanometer for sure.

636
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: It's smaller than a centimeter as well.

637
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 3: It's smaller than a mile apparently as well. So that's

638
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 3: pretty small.

639
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: That's pretty small.

640
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like how big is that in relation to the

641
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: size of an atom.

642
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: Well, an atom is you know, like ten to one

643
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: hundred ish trillionth of a meter, So this is one

644
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: quadrillionth of a meter. So it's like one ten thousands

645
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: or one hundred thousands the size of an atom. So

646
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: it's very small compared to the atom. Compared to the

647
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: electron radius, the proton is super tiny.

648
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 3: Okay, Wait, so we have an atom, and how about

649
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: just the nucleus of the atom. How close together are

650
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 3: those protons and neutrons in the nucleus packed together?

651
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: Those are very rightly packed together. And again remember that's

652
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: because that's sort of how the size of the proton

653
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: is determined. It's like how do those things cluster together?

654
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: And so the size of like if you have the

655
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: nucleus of an atom with you know, one hundred protons

656
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: and neutrons in it. It's not that much bigger than

657
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: one protonomy. It's like packing above those marbles together. So

658
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: it's going to be order of magnitude quadrilliance of a meter.

659
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 3: Oh wow, so the new And that's why they say

660
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 3: like an atom is mostly empty space because you know,

661
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 3: what you would say is the size of it. Actually

662
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 3: the nucleus is like this tiny little bit of it inside.

663
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the way that they probe this is two

664
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: different ways. One is they shoot an electron at a proton,

665
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: but sometimes also they just look at an atom. They

666
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: just watch an atom sitting there. It's got a proton

667
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: and an electron and the electron is whizzing all around.

668
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: And sometimes this is super weird. Sometimes the electron goes

669
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: inside the proton.

670
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 3: Like in a quantum mechanical way, or like it actually

671
00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: goes through ooh.

672
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: What's the difference? Quantum mechanics is reality, dude?

673
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: Like if you were to you know, I mean, like

674
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 3: if you were to open the Schrodinger's box and you

675
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 3: would you would suddenly find it inside of the nucleus.

676
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. The electron in one of its states has non

677
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: zero probability density to be inside the proton. And when

678
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: this happens, it sort of like partially cancels some of

679
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: the charge pull of this thing because you have the

680
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: electron now inside the positive atom and then it escapes.

681
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: But depending on the size of the proton it escaped,

682
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: this happens more or less often, so you can measure

683
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: like how often the electron is inside the proton, and

684
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: that tells you how big the proton is, because the

685
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: bigger the proton is, the more often this happens. So

686
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: this is another way we sort of get a sense

687
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: for how big is the proton.

688
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 3: I see, using like probability, Yeah, like throw a bunch

689
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 3: of darts at it, only sometimes you hit the proton.

690
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 3: Then that sort of tells you the size.

691
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And that's actually the most sensitive test, basically

692
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: using the hydrogen's own electron, like pass it through the

693
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,479
Speaker 1: proton and give you a sense for how big it is.

694
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: It's crazy, well.

695
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 3: All right, so a proton is about using one ten

696
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 3: thousands of the size of a typical atom. That's pretty

697
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 3: small atoms, Yeah, pretty small themselves, all right, So let's

698
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 3: get there. Let's get down now to the last level,

699
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 3: which is how big is in electron and I imagine

700
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 3: that's going to be even smaller. But we'll get into that,

701
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 3: But first, let's take a quick break.

702
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

703
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

704
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

705
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

706
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707
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,560
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708
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Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

709
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

710
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four times.

711
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: The same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn,

712
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases?

713
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,120
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714
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715
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Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice

716
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know that

717
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Speaker 1: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the

718
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719
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Speaker 3: All right, Daniel, So now we're down to one of

741
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: the fundamental particles, the electron, and we're asking the question

742
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 3: how big is it? Or how small isn't it?

743
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: Or how big isn't it?

744
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 3: Amount of negatives here, I guess what we're going to

745
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 3: talk about. It sort of applies to quarts as well, right,

746
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 3: because we're now talking about single particles, not like clusters

747
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 3: of particles.

748
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and remember that our theory is very hierarchical. We

749
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: start with matter, and then we go to molecules. We

750
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: go from molecules to atoms, from atoms to protons and electrons,

751
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: and then to quarks and electrons, and we're sort of

752
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: have shells inside shells inside shells, and so this is

753
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: sort of our current level of knowledge, and we can

754
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: ask like, are these particles that we see, are they

755
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 1: the smallest possible thing? Or is it possible there's something

756
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: else inside them? So you're right that quarks and electrons

757
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: are sort of as far as we've gone, and so

758
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: in some sense, asking how big are they is asking

759
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: are they the end. Are they the tiniest, smallest possible

760
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: thing or are they possibly made of something smaller?

761
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 3: Oh? I see, because if you can split them, that

762
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 3: means there's something smaller inside. I guess that's pretty obvious.

763
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, that sounds deep, and it is deep,

764
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: but it's also kind of obvious, like if you can

765
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: break it into smaller pieces, then it's therefore made of

766
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: something else. As far as we know, quarks and electrons

767
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: are not yet made of something smaller. But that doesn't

768
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 1: tell you necessarily how big they are. Right, they could

769
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: be the smallest possible thing and still have a finite size.

770
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 3: Right, they could.

771
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: Be the Legos of the universe.

772
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 3: Lego. Yeah, it could be the smallest lego you can have,

773
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 3: but that can be smaller big.

774
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: That could be smaller big. And that's fascinating when you

775
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: learn a number about the universe. Like let's say we

776
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: somehow proved that quarks and electrons are not made of

777
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: anything smaller. They have the smallest Lego blocks, and we

778
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: measured their size. Then we'd know something really deep and

779
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: basic about the universe, like it's made of legos this size,

780
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: And you'd have to wonder, like well, why that size

781
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: and not something else? What does that tell you about

782
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: the universe to know that fundamental fact? Yeah?

783
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 3: Did you know there are legos that are smaller than

784
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: the single unit lego? What like you would think the

785
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 3: smallest lego is just like one square with one circle

786
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 3: on it, right.

787
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: I'm saying people have smashed the legos together to make

788
00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 1: some lego.

789
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: They discovered the constituent pieces and those legos no, yeah,

790
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 3: they make This is kind of weird and probably not consequential,

791
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 3: but they make smaller pieces. They make pieces that fit

792
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 3: inside of the whole that some of the single circle

793
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 3: lego pieces have inside.

794
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you have just violated the standard model

795
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 1: of legos Nobel price. Please you've got the Goop prize

796
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: from that one? Yea?

797
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 3: Anyways, so yeah, so let's talk about how big an

798
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 3: electron is, and let's use that as our single particle example.

799
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 3: And does it even make sense to talk about the

800
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 3: size of a single particle, Daniel.

801
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 1: It's hard to talk about the size of a single

802
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: particle if you haven't measured the stuff inside of it.

803
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: Because we've talked about the size of atoms and protons

804
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: based on like how happy the stuff inside of it

805
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: is to be next near each other, like how closely

806
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: does it pack? So for a fundamental particle, you have

807
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: to go back to like the poking it and be like, well,

808
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: if I poked an electron with a stick, where would

809
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: it push back? But that's sort of unsatisfying to me.

810
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 3: Couldn't I just pack a bunch of electrons in a

811
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 3: glass jar and see wouldn't that tell me sort of

812
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 3: the size of it, like how comfortable an electron is

813
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 3: to another electron or to a proton. Wouldn't that sort

814
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 3: of tell you the sort of the size, just like

815
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 3: we did with the marbles and the atoms.

816
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds like a really fun experiment. I want

817
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: to take like a gas of pure electrons and squeeze

818
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: it down together and see what happens. The problem is

819
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: that there's not like a clear answer, Like the hardy

820
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: you squeeze, the closer they get together. There's not like

821
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: an equilibrium like with protons or with atoms, because these

822
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: are all just negatively charged particles.

823
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 3: There's no chill state where they're like, hey, you're there,

824
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 3: I'm here.

825
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: All is good, And so instead you want to like

826
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: take them and like poke them like well, if you

827
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: poke them with an electron, then they bounce back for sure,

828
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: But what if you poke them with neutrinos then they

829
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: don't bounce back at all, Or what if you poke

830
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: them with dark matter? Then they don't bounce back, And

831
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: so you're back to this like fuzziness of like you know,

832
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: if it depends on how it's pushing back, then it

833
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: depends on what you're poking it with. And then size

834
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: isn't something that's like inherent to the object. It's about

835
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,399
Speaker 1: the interaction, which means it depends also on the thing

836
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: you're interacting it with, which is so frustrating.

837
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 3: Oh, I see what you're saying. Like, if I had

838
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 3: a cloud of electrons, you could maybe talk about where

839
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 3: the cloud is and where the cloud isn't, where the

840
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 3: electrons are and where there aren't. But with one single electron,

841
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 3: it's hard to say where it ends.

842
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: It's hard to say where it ends, Like is there

843
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 1: a left side to the electron and a right side

844
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: to the electron? Are those things even the same thing?

845
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 3: Because it depends on what you're trying to touch it with, right,

846
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 3: Like if you're trying to touch it with another electron,

847
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 3: it would maybe repel at a certain distance. But if

848
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 3: you try to poke it with a proton, then it

849
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 3: would maybe attract it a different distance.

850
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, well not so much electron versus proton, because they

851
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,720
Speaker 1: both feel electromagnetism. But what if you used a different force,

852
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: if you use like the weak nuclear force, or if

853
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: you used gravity, or if you used electromagnetism, then the

854
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: you would get from an electron is different. And that's

855
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: what I see.

856
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: We're trying to a neutrino. An electron has no size.

857
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 3: It doesn't like, I don't care, like the neutrina doesn't care.

858
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: A neutrino would pass through a cloud of electrons and

859
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 1: have a much lower chance of interacting than another electron would.

860
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 3: Like it wouldn't even know it's there.

861
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, or dark matter, right, poke a bile of electrons

862
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 1: with a stick of dark matter, you're gonna get almost

863
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: no interactions, or maybe no interactions. We don't even know

864
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: about dark matter. And this is the problem. It makes

865
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 1: sense to define size in terms of interactions, like where

866
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: it is something push back, but it also is troublesome

867
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: because then it depends on what you're pushing on it with.

868
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 3: So that's kind of a problem in defining the size

869
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 3: of an electron because it depends on what you poke

870
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:44,919
Speaker 3: it with.

871
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 1: So then we try something else. We say, well, let's

872
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: think about it like quantum mechanically. Like we've talked about

873
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: where the electron is, and it's defined by like its

874
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: quantum mechanical wave function, and you know you were talking

875
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: about like those balloon shapes where the electron is. You know,

876
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: what's the sort of the you can localize an electron, Like,

877
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: what's the size of that quantum packet you want to

878
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 1: think about it like as a tiny quantum object. That's

879
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: like another way to try to grapple with it.

880
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 3: Because their probability curves right, Like you know, where the

881
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: cloud is fuzzy, it tells you that the probability that

882
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 3: the electron is there is small, But where the cloud

883
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 3: is kind of thick, it tells you that there's a

884
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 3: high probability that the electron is there.

885
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 1: But that doesn't really give you any insight because that

886
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: size can be almost anything. It depends on the uncertainty principle.

887
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: If you know almost nothing about the velocity the momentum

888
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: of the electron, then you can know exactly where it is,

889
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: which means it has like zero That quantum mechanical packet

890
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: has zero width. And on the flip side, if you

891
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: know everything about its velocity, then its packet is infinitely wide.

892
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: It like exists everywhere in the universe. Simultaneously, you have

893
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 1: like a universe sized electron. So that's intellectually not that

894
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: satisfying either.

895
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 3: But what if you assume an electron is just standing still,

896
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 3: Like when you're trying to measure your kid how toll

897
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 3: they are, and it's impossible because they keep moving. But

898
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 3: what if you can get them to stand still, what

899
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 3: would that happen? Would you be able to then get

900
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 3: a pretty accurate size.

901
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: If you're measuring the velocity of the particle, you're getting

902
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: it to stand still has no velocity, and you say

903
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: it has zero velocity, then it has infinite size because

904
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: you can't know the product. Remember the product of the

905
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: position and momentum uncertainty has to equal a certain number.

906
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: And so if you're narrowing down the speed of the

907
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: electron really really well, that means you don't know anything

908
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: about where it is. It's an infinite plane.

909
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 3: Wave size is only a distance, whereas in particle physics

910
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 3: distance is kind of intertwined with time as well in velocity.

911
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: But then on the flip side, if you say I

912
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: don't care at all about how fast it is, I

913
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: just want to know where it is, then you can

914
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: localize it as much as you want. You can make

915
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: it infinitely narrow. And so that also doesn't give you

916
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: any sense of like the size of the electron.

917
00:43:55,640 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 3: So strike too, we can do use poking or quantum mathematics.

918
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 3: So does that mean that the electron has no size,

919
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 3: that it's impossible to define the size of an electron?

920
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: It kind of does currently. I mean in our theory,

921
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: the way we actually use it is we assume the

922
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 1: electron has no size at all, it has zero volume.

923
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: That it's just like a point in space. The left

924
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: is the right, the top is the bottom, the back

925
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: is the front. There's no extent to it at all.

926
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 3: It's sort of mathematically and because of all the things

927
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 3: we just talked about, I guess that that's true. Yeah,

928
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 3: you can't measure the size of an electron. It doesn't

929
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 3: make any sense to think about it.

930
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, in our theories we just put zero because we

931
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: assume that there's nothing there. We have no way to

932
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: really see the size of the electron. But you know,

933
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: we do continue to try. We do smash particles at

934
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 1: the electron, hoping that we'll see it break open, hoping

935
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: that we'll see other little particles come out of it.

936
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 3: But I guess, getting back to the size of the

937
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 3: electron itself, I mean, it's not like it has no

938
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 3: size because it's not a mile wide. You even say

939
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 3: that the electron is all electrons are a mile mile wide.

940
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say for the size of

941
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: the electron, you know, And that's why I predicted, I

942
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: think correctly, that you'd be unsatisfied with the.

943
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's not really it's you can't tell

944
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 3: the future. I can't.

945
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I can't in this case. Like I think

946
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 1: the way I think about it currently is as a point,

947
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: but I also know that that makes no sense because like,

948
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: how do you have something that has mass but has

949
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 1: no volume because that has infinite density, which is nonsense.

950
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 3: Right, because electrons have mass, they.

951
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: Have mass, and they have charge. Like where does that

952
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: charge go? Where is it in the electron if it

953
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: has no volume. We're just used to thinking about stuff

954
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: as having size as having volume, So to imagine like

955
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: that the basic building blocks of the universe themselves are

956
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 1: of zero volume. Is really weird, but.

957
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 3: I guess maybe you know that that's the theory of it.

958
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 3: But practically speaking, I mean, we can talk about what's

959
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 3: practical to you and me is like electromagnetic forces. Right,

960
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 3: I know it doesn't make sense in terms of neutrinos

961
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 3: or dark matter, but kind of what's practical is electromagnetic forces,

962
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 3: And so couldn't we sort of maybe give a practical

963
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 3: size to the electron because of that, like, like what's

964
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 3: the closest to electrons in one atom? How close can

965
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 3: they get to electrons in another atom? Wouldn't that sort

966
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 3: of give you a general size?

967
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we've done that. We've like pounded electrons near

968
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: each other, try to get them as close together as possible,

969
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: and so far we haven't found a limit, like there's

970
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: no point at which the electrons will not get closer

971
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: to each other. And so far we've gotten down to

972
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: about ten to the minus twenty meters. And you do

973
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: that by shooting really high energy electrons at other electrons

974
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: and try to get them really close together. So that's

975
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: as far as we could tell. We can't tell the

976
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: difference between the electrons have no volume, and they have

977
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 1: some volume that's smaller than ten to the minus twenty meters.

978
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: We can't tell the difference so far. They look like

979
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 1: they're point. Like we have some sort of limited resolution

980
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: there in our ability to probe.

981
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 3: So what happens if I the whole universe was just

982
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 3: like a proton and an electron. I guess the electron

983
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 3: would orbit the proton. That's what hydrogen is.

984
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, The size of the hydrogen comes from their interactions. Right,

985
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: Most of the volume of all the stuff in the

986
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: universe comes from the interactions, not from any actual volume

987
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: of the particles that make them up.

988
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 3: All right, Well, you're right, this is very unsatisfying.

989
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: Well, that's satisfying to me that at least I was

990
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: right about that. But it's it's a really fun puzzle

991
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: because I think it's interesting to try to grapple with

992
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: the quantum realm and try to understand what are the

993
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: limits of our ability to map these concepts size and

994
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 1: mass and charge and velocity down to these tiny particles

995
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: that in the end are the reality, are the truth

996
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: about our universe?

997
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it's interesting how you know, you

998
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 3: sort of put it that it's all about the interactions,

999
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 3: you know, and it's hard to think about an electron

1000
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 3: not having like a surface or you know, an edge

1001
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 3: where it's no longer or an electron. And it also

1002
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 3: depends on what you're trying to look at it with,

1003
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 3: you know, like if you're trying to look at it

1004
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 3: with neutrinos, then you wouldn't see anything at all. Yeah,

1005
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 3: but if you looked at it with the electrons, it

1006
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 3: would feel like a certain size maybe yeah.

1007
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: And this is connected to some of the other puzzles

1008
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: we talked about, like does the electron actually spin? We

1009
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,919
Speaker 1: know that it's either a point, which case doesn't make

1010
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: sense for it to spin, like a point literally cannot spin,

1011
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: or that it's super tiny. But if it's super tiny

1012
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,280
Speaker 1: and it has a surface, then it's spinning so fast

1013
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: that that surface is moving faster than the speed of light.

1014
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: So at some point, like it doesn't even make sense

1015
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: for it to have a non zero size.

1016
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 3: At some point, nothing makes sense, Daniel, life is meaningless.

1017
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: And that's usually about forty five minutes into every episode.

1018
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: The incredible thing is that we can understand it at all,

1019
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: that we can take these ideas from our everyday experience

1020
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 1: of like eating bananas and throwing balls around, and that

1021
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: it can give us any guide into the microroscopic, you know,

1022
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: because the microscopic is so weird, so alien, it's incredible

1023
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,879
Speaker 1: it works at all that I even have a job.

1024
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 3: But yeah, but that's the thing. We don't understand it.

1025
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 3: But yet at the same time we're able to you know,

1026
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 3: predict it and describe it with math, But that doesn't

1027
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 3: mean we understand it.

1028
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: Right, That's what understanding is as far as I know,

1029
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: I don't know any deeper level of understanding when you

1030
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: pass it off to the philosophers and you can ask them, like,

1031
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: you know, what does it mean? Man? But in the end,

1032
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do as physicists is just sort

1033
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,280
Speaker 1: of describe accurately the world we see around us, build

1034
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: a model in our heads that makes sense, describe all

1035
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: this unknown in terms of the known. That that's all

1036
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: the understanding we can hope for.

1037
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 3: Well, I guess what I mean is like, at some

1038
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 3: point we thought the proton was a proton, and we

1039
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 3: had some math to describe it, and we thought we

1040
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 3: understood it. But then then it turned out that we

1041
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 3: there was more to the proton than we thought, and

1042
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 3: we didn't actually understand the proton it was made out

1043
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 3: of quarks, for example. So I feel like, you know,

1044
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 3: you have a maths medical description of stuff, but you

1045
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:03,919
Speaker 3: don't know if you're really understanding it to the fundamental level.

1046
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 1: And all of these mathematical descriptions they work up to

1047
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: a point. Like your idea thinking about a proton as

1048
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,240
Speaker 1: a fundamental particle, as a point particle that mostly works.

1049
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 1: It works unless you get up to really high energies,

1050
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: energies where you can see inside the proton, because the

1051
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: energies are greater than the bonds that are holding the

1052
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 1: proton together. And so as we keep pushing to higher

1053
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: and higher energies, we're looking deeper and deeper into the

1054
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 1: real truth the smallest scales of the universe. And that's

1055
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: what limits how small we can see it is the

1056
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: energy with which we probe it. And that's why, like

1057
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: building a bigger SuperCollider would let us maybe see whether

1058
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 1: the electron had bits inside of it.

1059
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, keep funding physics is.

1060
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: Hey, I'm on message.

1061
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 3: If nothing else, keep sending those checks.

1062
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 1: Please, if you have to pick between donating to bananas

1063
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: or fundamental physics, you know, where I stand on.

1064
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 3: That bananas right, because bananas are made out of fundamental

1065
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 3: part All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that, and

1066
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 3: maybe the next time you take a bite out of

1067
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 3: a banana or your fruit of choice, maybe think about

1068
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 3: what it actually means to take a bite. I feel

1069
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 3: like we've thrown everything into question now, Daniel, like, what

1070
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 3: does it even mean to take a bite into When

1071
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 3: does my teeth end? And when does the banana begin?

1072
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, but every banana you've ever eaten is

1073
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: made out of zero volume particles. Chew on that and

1074
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: think about it until next week.

1075
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us, see you next time.

1076
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: Before you still have a question after listening to all

1077
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: these explanations, please drop us a line. We'd love to

1078
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,720
Speaker 1: hear from you. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter,

1079
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge That's one word, or

1080
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:50,280
Speaker 1: email us at Feedback at Danielandhorge dot com. Thanks for listening,

1081
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is

1082
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

1083
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,759
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1084
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.

1085
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,280
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1086
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,360
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1087
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,440
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