WEBVTT - Zahra Noorbakhsh 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.200 This is from British classicist Mary Beard's manifesto called Women 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:09.000 and Power, which is super short and pretty powerful. She says, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:13.680 we find repeated stress throughout ancient literature on the authority 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:17.120 of the deep male voice in contrast to the female. 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:21.919 As one ancient scientific treatise explicitly put it, a low 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:28.000 pitched voice indicated manly courage, a high pitched voice female cowardice. 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:31.600 Other classical writers insisted that the tone and timbre of 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:36.600 women's speech always threatened to subvert not just the voice 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:40.080 of the male orator, but also, and I love this, 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:46.519 the social and political stability, the health of the whole state. 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:59.080 So that's what we're doing. Our voice is a reflection 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.120 of our life experience, ants where we've been, and who 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.039 we've listened to. But we can also own it and 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:08.640 even change it if we want. This is the podcast 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.959 that's all about the voice, but it's also all about power. 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.319 Who has it, how we get it, how we sound 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.560 when we have it. I'm Samara Bay. I'm a dialect 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.360 coach for actors in Hollywood on movies like the upcoming 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:25.160 Wonder Woman's sequel and a bunch of other stuff I 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:29.640 can't talk about. And I'm also a speech coach for entrepreneurs, 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:33.000 for politicians, for women everywhere ready to use their voice 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.760 to get what they want. Welcome to permission to speak. 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:44.600 Let's do this. Today's guest is Zara nor Box. She 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.920 is an Iranian American comedian whose latest one woman show 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:53.320 is called On Behalf of All Muslims Colon, a comedy special. 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.040 I find her fascinating. She teamed up with a philanthropic 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:00.000 organization called Pop Culture Collaborative, which you should look up. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.840 It's awesome. Their mission is I have it here. It 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:08.120 states that through partnerships between the social justice sector and 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:12.880 the pop culture industries, the Collaborative believes activists, artists, and 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:18.240 philanthropists can encourage mass audiences to reckon with the past 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:23.000 and rewrite the story of our nation's future. I mean 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:25.680 basically want to just like stand up out of my 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.560 chair and applaud So Pop Culture Collaborative actually paid Zara 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:34.119 to spend a year analyzing how to basically solve bro 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:36.760 comedy culture, and we get to talk about that in 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.399 this interview. I wanted to have her on because of that, 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.320 and because I feel like she's an amazing example of 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:48.200 somebody who is fearlessly diving into the somewhat thankless mess 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:50.639 of how to talk seriously about what it is to 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.840 be funny and what it takes to actually make social change. 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.400 And I also wanted to have her on because the 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:01.720 story of how she found her own voice as somebody 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:03.760 who you know sort of very much shows up in 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.080 a room as a quote unquote outsider in the comedy 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.160 world for being a woman, for being a woman of color, 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:11.760 for being a woman who's queer, for being you know, 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.880 the list of things, and bonus, she tells us about 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.239 crowd work, which I feel like when a comedian is 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:19.960 willing to tell you how to work crowd and how 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:21.600 to get them on your side, even when they seem 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.640 a little hostile up top, like you should listen and 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:31.359 with that, here she is. So you're a comedian. One 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.320 of the things that you have talked about is this 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.440 sense that we all have that comedy is uh and 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:41.000 historically has been developed in bars and nightclubs, and thus 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:45.480 is inevitably somewhat misogynistic because there is a culture there 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.440 that is pretty set. You were interviewed in an article 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.960 for Bustle Online, and this is the quote The underdog 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:55.640 ends up being the guy at the bar trying to score. 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:58.160 As a woman in that scene, I felt like I 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.480 was always responding to either how fuckable or unfusckable I was. 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:04.600 I didn't have a language to kind of say, oh, 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.320 I'm being tasked with identifying myself with the male gaze 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:09.160 at the bar and then proving that I can be 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:11.440 funnier than them by being more crass. I had no 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:13.880 interest in doing that, and at the time, how that 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.440 translated for me is that I just wasn't good. Yep. 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.599 I read that and was like, God, that feels like 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:26.000 putting into words probably so many people's experience, whether actually 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.480 it's for comedy or just for work culture, like why 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.880 am I not funny? Oh? I know because of my audience, 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:36.640 not because of me? So I mean my real question 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:38.720 is like, what was your process out of that? How 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:43.080 did you find your voice? Well? I think a big 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:46.440 part of it was learning how to name all of 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:50.320 the obstacles. Yeah, because I think, like I said, like, 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:53.760 at that time, all these things just get categorized as 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:55.800 just well, you're just not good, you just don't have it, 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.960 You're just not dedicated. It's about your work ethic, and 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.160 so then those things just kind of make you go, well, 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:04.919 there's it's not actionable. There's nothing I can do about 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:06.880 the fact that I'm just not good at this. I 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.400 lean on a lot of my actor training to go like, 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.599 you know, okay, So then how do I change that? 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.280 Because if it's a moral or ethical thing, there's not 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:17.880 much I can do about that. That's a that's a 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:21.119 state of being, you know, and and that's in my head. 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.760 But if it's about how I engage with the audience differently, 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.080 the questions that I asked differently, the stage setups that 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.120 I seek out, the theatrical constructs that I'm looking for. 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:31.719 And what I started to notice was, Okay, hold up. 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:36.760 You know I studied meta theater in UH college. What 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:40.320 is meta theater? Meta theater is the theater of theater, 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:43.599 you know, Like right now we're in a podcast booth 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:47.400 and we're having a conversation. It's facilitating the opportunity for 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.359 us to dive deep on a conversation that we wouldn't 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.479 have if there was the distractions of our day. So 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:59.160 in stand up comedy, the theater of it all is okay, 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:03.320 we can stop worrying about each other. We're we're gonna 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:07.000 take hits and we're gonna send hits, and that's part 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.320 of the relief, right. But the thing is, if you're 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.559 a person who walks around already feeling like no one's 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.559 paying enough attention to the hits coming your way, that's 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:21.839 not at all a relief. It's very stressful, but it's 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.480 very bro. It's very bro for guys to get together 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:27.840 and be like, anybody, yeah, you know, you could take 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.000 that right, and it's like and it's all play and 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:35.640 that's fun for them, and surprise, it's difficult for guys 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.840 to learn it's not fun for you. What do you know? 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.839 I don't like it. I'm sorry, you know that. That's 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:49.560 tough for them to hear, especially when surprise they're getting off, 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:53.279 they're having a relaxed experience. And it creeped me out 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.159 that like, this sort of standard of funny that we've 0:06:56.200 --> 0:07:01.760 set is really rooted in a suspension enough disbelief that's 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.960 about a step away from rape culture. You've got a 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:07.640 theatrical construct that's in a bar, and you've got a 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.400 bar's power dynamic dictating the way that people engage with 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:16.400 each other and celebrate. So then everybody who's the underdog 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.560 at a bar is the guy trying to score. Everybody 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:23.640 who's in the way of that is the jerk or 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.440 the hot girl who won't give it away. The jerk. 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:32.160 She's the jerk, you know. But if you really open 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:36.640 up the framing of it and you make the theater bigger, 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:41.440 you know, cinematic, and you go okay. Well, when she 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.400 woke up this morning, her hair went one direction and 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.200 her calic was doing its thing, and she had to like, 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:52.720 you know, take a shower, brush out her hair, get 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.160 a product that's like you know, doing something to her 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.360 brain through its skull, and then she had to like 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.040 you know, put all kinds of like chemicals on her 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.480 face and watch a bunch of YouTube tutorials that she's 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.720 been watching since she was fifteen too, like manufacture a 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.160 look of natural. And then all of that is like 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.960 expenses that she doesn't have, and makeup she's relying on 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.240 that she's invested in for like three years, and she's 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:19.280 hoping that all of these things are going to like 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.239 pull together the same face she had yesterday. But somehow, 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.600 with the humidity and the sweat of the environment of 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.960 like a stressful meeting, made her makeup like really set 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:31.560 and she's been working on her body for like a 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.840 hundred years and so that she can like you know, 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:38.600 present to patriarchy. She shows up at this bar and 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:41.040 really she's just looking for a good lay with a 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.839 good guy who's not going to kill her. Like now 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.120 you have an underdog with a much more powerful foe, 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.440 but it takes time. You have to develop that. And 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.600 so then that was the other obstacle was like, Okay, 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.400 there's no time at a bar. I have to win 0:08:56.520 --> 0:09:00.560 folks over in ten seconds. I have ten seconds, actly five, 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:02.920 but ten seconds, and I have to work off of 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:05.520 who they see, you know. So then you've got these 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:10.199 comedians who get regulated to storytelling and one person shows 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.480 when really the reason why we're doing that is because 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.160 to bring everybody the real underdogs that we are in 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:21.000 our lives, we have to go into a story. Yeah, 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:25.160 it's unfamiliar to folks, and so that's what I wanted 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:26.880 to do with this report that I did through Pop 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.400 Culture Collaborative was to like really make it clear to 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:32.840 people all of the things that make it impossible to 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:37.120 be funny like your guy friend, and that every time 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.800 we are funny like them, that's not revolutionary, we're just 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.160 inhabiting patriarchy in a different kind of way, like we 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:45.360 figured out how to assimilate, but it definite leave us. 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:47.959 So yeah, I want to talk about this study on 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:54.600 doing deep dive. I you know, came across obviously you're comedian, 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:56.800 your writer at your podcast host, which we want to 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.599 talk about as well, but you're also an activist. I 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:01.559 don't know if that's the word that you use for it, 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:03.840 but you're very much if we're still allowed to say 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:08.800 disrupting oh quotes, you know, like comedy culture, not just 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:11.760 by existing although in that regard as well, but also 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:16.120 specifically by doing this study with this organization that you 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:20.040 just referenced. I'm assumming getting paid to do so and 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:24.959 really looking at not only this issue of like what's 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.959 funny for who, but also the pipeline that that ends 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.960 up affecting. And I specifically want you to tell us 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.080 about it in terms of this idea of tension versus release, 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.680 because this is exists in comedy. I don't know if 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:40.640 if people outside of the comedy world think about this equation, 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:42.880 but this feels like kind of an age old comedy 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.280 equation that there's tension and then the comedian releases the 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.160 tension with the punch line and everybody goes ha ha, yeah, 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.080 and you're this seemed like your way in that you 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.680 were like, hold up, what makes us all tense is 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:57.040 not the same? Yes, how did they find you? How 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.079 did you find them? And how did you decide to 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.280 sort of do this and didn't reveal. I met up 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.640 for coffee with Bridget Antoinette Evans and Tracy events like 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.600 and I complained about comedy for an hour and then 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:16.720 I got a grant. There's really something to be said 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.520 for everybody taking an acting class man, because you really 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.040 have to get specific about your obstacles and then you 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.440 know what, then you can articulate them to people. And 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.400 I had the benefit also of being invited to the 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.960 Sundance Creative Change Retreat presented by an organization called the 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:36.120 Opportunity Agenda. And I call them the liberal Illuminati, because 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:38.960 I was like, who are you? I want to know them. 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:44.120 You look very powerful to me, and you are everywhere, 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.280 but no one knows this, uh. And they brought together 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.240 all these folks from all these different areas for activism 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.520 and I was there with Harry and come out and 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:55.800 you know, like as peers. And I was like, whoa 0:11:55.880 --> 0:12:00.480 hold up, I'm quitting comedy also, and they were like 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:05.080 why and I was like, here's why. And I laid 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.920 out for them all my complaints, like I can't do 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:09.679 this because of this, and I can't do that because 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:14.920 of that, and they said, your complaints are analysis. And 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.400 I had not pursued academia beyond my bachelor's you know, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.440 so like I never thought about it that way. I 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:25.280 was always just you know, trying to fix what's broken 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.959 and it wasn't working and I just was stuck. And 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:34.280 they were like, that's racism, that's institutionalized racism. And I 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.920 was like, no way. I mean, this turns back into 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.480 the first question to write. I mean it really nick 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:44.600 naming stuff. You know, words are problematic, but words are 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.520 also incredibly valuable. When it's like, oh, this weird experience 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.520 I'm having that makes me feel like even more other 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.000 than than ever, because I feel like I'm having a 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.480 different experience than everyone else. That word instantly makes me 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.280 feel like, oh, I'm actually having a related experience to 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.520 a bunch of p who all feel like they're having 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:05.480 these solo, isolated experiences exactly, and then when I started 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.040 talking about it, then people would say things like, oh 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.360 my god, I have that. In the medical field, Oh 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.600 I have that. As a classical musician, Oh I have that. 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.480 You know where we get put in these physicians where 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:21.360 we have to explain the distance between our context and 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.080 people's expectation of our context. Say more about that in 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.559 terms of like stereotypes or what you mean when you're 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.800 an ethnically ambiguous woman and you get up on stage 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.000 and the audience wants to know where you're from, and 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.880 there's a power dynamic that exists with women that is attention, 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.720 that is, you know, I have an expectation, I have 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.200 a question, answer it. And when you're a woman, that 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.440 power dynamic of like I need something from you, give 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:51.719 it to me exists is normative and subconscious and habitual. 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.280 And when you're a woman of color, than the expectation 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:59.800 for people to educate about where you're like, don't just 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.920 don't just relieve my tension, but also fill in all 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:04.640 of the gaps of anything I've ever wanted to know 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.480 since you're here, if you don't mind exactly exactly, And 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:13.840 especially with liberal audiences, because they believe that it is 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:20.080 their job to learn from difference. They're pre set to 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:24.080 expect that when difference presents itself on stage, they should 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.720 learn from difference, and so then that learning kills comedy. 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.640 Nobody laughs when they're learning. You can't learn when you're laughing. 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.080 You laugh when you get it. You laugh because you 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.200 just told me something that I already knew, and I 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.720 forgot that I knew it. Oh you're human, I forgot. Sorry, 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:43.840 that's funny. How did I forget that? You know? Oh? 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:45.360 You do that just like me. Oh my god, I 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.440 recognize that. But when we're learning, we stop laughing. We 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:52.000 listen when we're actually learning, and you know that experience 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.000 of when people are actually listening to you versus when 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.960 they're not right. We all know that feeling. So in 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.800 comedy like tension. I mean, you ever get a breathless laugh. 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.520 It's the worst thing in the world. People have to 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.800 go ha ha ha. They have to take a breath 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:14.440 in if that anticipation is not there and someone wants 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.000 to agree with you or disagree with you or what 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:19.800 you just said. They think they know where you're going, 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.640 but they're not sure. They see a magic tricks about 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:24.680 to happen, and they want to catch it before you 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:29.360 trick them. That has to be there, that tension has 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:34.400 to exist. But what happens for people who are not 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:39.680 sis hetero white men on stage is that it's not 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.680 the normative social experience for us to have authorship over 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:46.680 that tension. When we see a white guy on stage 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.800 with a mic, we go, oh, what's he gonna do 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:50.760 with that power? And then we're along for the ride. 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.360 When I take that mic, then people go, wait, where 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.680 are you from? And how did you get here? And 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:00.920 where are your parents? And how did they get here? 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.040 And do they approve of what you're saying? And do 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.520 I agree that I'm going to let you be in 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:10.520 charge of that? That's a lot Before I opened my mouth, 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.680 I mean, this is so genius exactly, And I mean 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.000 so then the question, of course, is like, so, what's 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.360 the solution so people like you don't quit? I'll say 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.840 this because it's never one solution, right, you know, we 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:22.720 say it takes a village. But I think what we 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.280 forget about that is it's not just people. It's also institutions. 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.320 So it's not just about the people in the audiences, 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.359 it's also about the pipelines. It's also about those gatekeepers. 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:34.520 It's also about the metrics that we use to gauge 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.000 a laugh. It's also about the way that we determine 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.680 whether or not a comedian successful. What are we gonna 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:43.560 do if all of the time the metric for success 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.960 is how heartily you laugh at what you already knew 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.360 to be true. Yep, we can't move forward real far. 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.680 So what I think we have to remember is it's 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:59.160 not always meant to be funny to you. You know, 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:07.160 we're not the every tension romans that it's not always 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.199 meant for everybody. Right. So if that's the case, if 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:12.479 it's not good and I and people always say, like, 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.040 you know, guy, I'll get a lot of bro comics 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:17.800 who are like, what are we gonna do with comedy 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.840 if it's not about laughter? And it's like, okay, I'm sorry, 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:26.399 Gallagher tours. There are comedians making money who aren't funny. 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:32.000 People will survive, the industry will survive, Capitalism will still thrive. 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:37.240 Don't worry. You know, I lost a friendship over Nanette. Oh. 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:42.840 Nanetta is a classic stand up comedy structure. It's fucking stunning. Uh. 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:48.120 And he is a comedian of color and could not 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:50.560 wrap his mind around the fact that if it wasn't 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:52.399 funny to him, it should not have any value to 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.720 anybody else, and that that was something that offended me. 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:57.200 I'm scared for you that you have a friend like that. 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.920 Well not anymore. I'll tell you why. Nana is a 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:04.080 classic comedic structure. Comedy is a personal essay. You begin 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:06.280 with an argument, you carry it all the way through, 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.520 example after example after example, you make a case. It's 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.160 not about subplots. It's not about wrapping up you know 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.960 what he said or she said or they did. It's 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:20.679 about the argument. So Nnette Show is an argument, you know, 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.480 and then too it closes on the highest point of tension. 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:28.720 That's comedy, the mic drop. But the thing is the 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.679 celebration for Nanette. What makes it so impactful, which is 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.320 a real metric for success in comedy, and what makes 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.160 it so revolutionary is that the mic drop comes when 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:44.040 they let the tension release for them and not the crowd. 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:49.560 This is a celebration for me. It lands on you buy. 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:53.120 That's the greatest mic drop of all time. It's fantastic 0:18:54.119 --> 0:19:05.120 and it's classic comedy. Okay, we'll be back, Okay, We're back, 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:08.520 and we were talking in the break and I want 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:10.879 to bring this up because this whole idea of tension 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.280 and releasing the tension does remind me of, you know, 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:20.240 being a woman, and how much the idea of people pleasing. 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:21.919 I mean, I showed you I have a pin on 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.520 my jacket today that's like a little award for not 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:28.080 pleasing everybody, which I almost wear ironically because i feel 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:29.159 like I get through a whole day and I'm like, 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:33.280 oh funk, I pleased everybody I can. I'm trying not 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:35.879 to because that means, you know, but it's a lot 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:39.000 of mental labor, Okay. So on Maslow's hierarchy of needs 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.679 is like a pyramid right of like safety at the 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:50.960 physiological level, belonging you know, community and uh esteem and 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.919 then self actualization. And so many times folks think that 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.840 they're having a conversation at the level of self actualization, 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:01.600 like we're just talking extractly, right, when they don't realize 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:03.679 that for the other person, it's hitting them in a 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.399 space of belonging, you know, whether or not they feel 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.160 connected to that other person anymore, like you lost your friend, right, 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:17.640 And I think for women are sense of belonging, likability, accommodation. 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:22.199 All those things threatened our belonging, but also belonging for 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:28.439 us as capital, yeah where property, you know, and for 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.919 people of color this is even more triggering. So you 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.760 know when people say, like, don't be so accommodating, or 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:37.920 you know, don't be so gracious, or you know, don't 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.560 try to please everybody, it's like, well, it's not really 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:44.119 always up to me though, And that's also not a 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:46.119 percent of the time a way that I can be 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:51.119 successful institutionally speaking. I mean this on a really practical 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.960 level is also why I pushed back as a professional 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.399 voice coach on like making fun of girls for vocal 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:04.800 fry yoh yeah, Like, can I admit that sound repeatedly 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:08.159 without break is like a little bit jarring and I 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.000 want somebody to breathe a little bit more sure, But 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.880 on a much more holistic level, if we're talking about 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:16.840 what's happening societally for that human being trying to make 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:19.040 it in the world and get some of their needs met, 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:22.400 I bet that vocal fries helping them get there. There's 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:24.159 a sense of belonging because boy do they sound like 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.440 their peers. There's a sense of safety because they're not 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:31.840 scaring that guy. See. See this is the thing is like, 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:35.720 sometimes I wonder if leadership is its own pronoun. Who wait, 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:42.640 what's like? What if I was just like yeah, will 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:49.920 be like, uh say more because I see so many 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:54.760 women who inhabit leadership. But there's a masculine edge to 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.639 it somehow that we have to present and perform to. 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:00.680 And sometimes that's natural to us. It doesn't feel like 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:04.320 a performance, and sometimes it's a performance because it's like, 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:07.840 we all have masculine and feminine energies and that's cool. 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:10.000 But if we're just like ratching up the masculine because 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.920 it's inherently coded as more powerful in this world, then 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:15.199 we're never actually finding what female leadership sounds like. And 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:17.479 by the way, that's the point of this podcast. Like 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.920 if uh, if an orc came in to tell me 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:26.560 that the company is failing, then I am gonna be 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:28.800 focused on the fact that the company is failing. Like 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:32.600 why does it matter how you present? You know I've 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:37.359 already been hired, you checked my resume, you read my references. 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.119 I have been here. I'm here because you have the 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.040 stipulated trust in me in this position. So when I 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:48.280 tell you we're screwed and you're in trouble, then everything 0:22:48.320 --> 0:22:50.679 moves forward from there. Why is it backward in an 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:54.440 attack on my character? Obviously, logically that makes a lot 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:58.080 of sense, right, Everything else is sexism. You don't like 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:00.119 the package? Why are you looking at the package? And 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:03.159 it's so sexist to examine and evaluate the value of 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:05.480 the package. I want to ask about your podcast Good 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:09.520 Muslimpad Muslim, which recently aired its final episode after five years, 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:14.840 and specifically in terms of how revealing we are publicly, 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:19.600 which is obviously something I'm considering having my own nascent podcast. 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:23.240 But also I see you know, quote unquote influences or 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:26.760 anybody on the interwebs struggling with this and that sense 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:30.400 of like I would like to reveal authentic things about 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:34.680 myself because it feels like I'm finding my community, and 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.960 also some of it feels like I'm doing it for 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:40.439 other people and it doesn't like what how do you 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.720