1 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This show contains adult language and occasional descriptions of violence. 2 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: Please keep that in mind when choosing when and where 3 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: to listen. Previously on death of an artist, Carl Andre 4 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: is an extremely private person that you can publicize his works, 5 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: but you can't talk about his private life with them. 6 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: He said, justice has been done. I said, I congratulation. 7 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: All of the case documents are unattainable, even their existence 8 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: will not be confirmed. Mocha Downtown has fired its chief curator, 9 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: Helen Molesworth. So you have an India I do. It's 10 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: a huge building. It's a good fifteen floors higher than 11 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: any other building. It's really high. It's really disturbing how 12 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: high it is. That's me and my producer Luisa, visiting 13 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: Carl Andre's building in Greenwich Village. I feel like I 14 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: should come clean. I did not think this was a 15 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: good idea. Luisa was trained as a journalist. Apparently, when 16 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: journalists hit brick walls with email and phone messages, they 17 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: do something called doorstepping, which is when you literally just 18 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: show up at someone's doorstep. Needless to say, they don't 19 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: teach this technique in art history class. It made me nervous. 20 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: As all get out, but there was no other option 21 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: when it came to talk into Carl, so here we were. 22 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: Carl still lives in the same apartment where Anna Mendieta 23 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: went out the window. Standing at street level, we had 24 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: to crane our necks to look all the way up 25 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: to the thirty fourth floor. The horror of Anna's last 26 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: moments really hit me. There was nothing abstract about it anymore. 27 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to be able to ring 28 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: a bell. No, I think we're going to have to 29 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: talk to the doorman. The doorman his job is to 30 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: keep us away. Yep. The lobby was all luxury, soaring atrium, 31 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: fancy light fixtures, plush sofas, and a doorman behind a 32 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: large desk right at the entrance. When we realized there 33 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: was no way to ring Carl's doorbell directly, I decided 34 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: to write him a note, a last ditch effort to 35 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: see if he'd talk. How are you feeling about going 36 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: in there? Not good? When I thought we were just 37 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: going to ring his bell, it kind of felt like 38 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: we were teenagers. But the place is fortified. There's a 39 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: security guard walking around in a doormat, and it feels 40 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: like I don't know rolling up on somebody, but I 41 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: think we have to do our due diligence. We need 42 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: to try to get a response to some of what 43 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: we're saying, right, and we've tried one way and now 44 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: we're going to try one other way. Right, let's do it. 45 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: It's not going to get any easier the more we wait. 46 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: All right, Hi, how are you? I'm going to help. 47 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: We are art historians trying to get in touch with 48 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: Carl Andre and we've emailed him a couple of times, 49 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: but we haven't gotten any answer back. And so we 50 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: were actually going to go old school and just ring 51 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: the bell, but obviously you control the bell. So I 52 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: have a little note for him, and I just don't 53 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: know what your protocols are. I don't know if you're 54 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: allowed to ring up and say we're here, or if 55 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: you want to take this. I can't hand that over. 56 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: If you'd be no problem of beautiful fall, we appreciate 57 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: that so much. Thank you. I handed over the note 58 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: and we went back out to the street. That was 59 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: in January. Carl never responded. I'm Helen Molesworth and from 60 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries something Else and Sony Music Entertainment This is 61 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: Death of an Artist, Episode six, The Reckoning. Maybe if 62 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: Carl had talked, if he had ever acknowledged changing his 63 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: story or straight up admitted that he just doesn't remember, 64 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: or even if he had publicly recognized the amount of 65 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: pain Anna's death caused him the art world, maybe then 66 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: all of this would feel different. But he didn't do 67 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: those things. So now I feel like I have to 68 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: answer the question I asked myself at the start of 69 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: this podcast. Can I still love Carl Andre's work? It's 70 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: a question that by now almost all of us have 71 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: faced in one form or another. So many of our 72 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: cultural icons have been accused of terrible things. In our 73 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: interviews for this series, the names Woody Allen, Michael Jackson, 74 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein, and Bill Cosby came up again and again. 75 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: Do we keep listening, watching reading the work of someone 76 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: accused of causing harm? And might it be that how 77 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: people answer these questions has a lot to do with 78 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: how much power they have, whether that's the power dynamic 79 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: of he said, she said, or the difference between being 80 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: a curator at a big museum versus being an everyday 81 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: working artist. I decided that in order to answer this question, 82 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: I needed to go see some of Andrea's work. I 83 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: hadn't seen any in years, and I was curious about 84 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: how I would feel when I walked on Andrea's metal plates. 85 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: Now after spending so much time thinking about Anna, Carl 86 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: is eighty seven years old and officially he has retired, 87 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: but in early twenty twenty two he had a show 88 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: at the Paula Cooper Gallery and the press release said 89 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: there was a new work. So Louisa and I walked 90 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: from Carl's apartment to the gallery and Chelsea. It's a 91 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: route I imagine Carl himself has probably taken a thousand times. 92 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: So I wrote the gallery and the gallery wrote me 93 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: back and said that they could not honor my request 94 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: to talk about it in the space. I know Paula, 95 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: and I really respect Paula, and I've felt bad all 96 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: along knowing this podcast isn't something she wants me to do. 97 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: So we're on the street, which feels really goofy, and 98 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: luckily for us, one of the works is installed in 99 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: this kind of show case shop window almost you know, 100 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: where there's just enough room for one work, and what 101 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: I'm looking at is a kind of classic Andre sculpture 102 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: made out of these large pieces of milled cedar, so 103 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: they've got that beautiful kind of light red orangey color 104 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: that cedar has. They're clearly just piled one on top 105 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: of the other, so basically we're looking at a staircase 106 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: or a pyramid. You're very aware, this is not random, 107 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: this is not chaos, this is order. The piece in 108 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: the window was from nineteen eighty Seeing it was like 109 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: seeing something from the past that was very familiar. So 110 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: far things felt pretty much the same. So we went inside, 111 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: we took in the show, and then we walked without talking, 112 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: to a nearby park and turned on the recording equipment. 113 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: It was cold and gray, the trees were bare, but 114 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: the birds were out in force. Well, what did you think? 115 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: You were very quiet in there. The show was very beautiful. 116 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: It had a kind of elegance to it. I was 117 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: also aware that I was a little bored. This show 118 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: had a new work in it, but the new work 119 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: didn't do anything. The new work was a milled cedar 120 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: piece arranged against a wall. And here is a guy 121 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: who made a sculpture in twenty twenty one that looked 122 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: just like the sculpture in the window from nineteen eighty 123 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: and I was really aware of this feeling of time stilled, 124 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: no forward movement. Looking at his new work, which looked 125 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: just like his old work, I realized that I still 126 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: thought all the things I used to think about his work, 127 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: but that the work didn't make me feel the way 128 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: it used to. And I know I lost that feeling 129 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: because of everything I understand about what happened on the 130 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: days before and after Anna died. I think there's birds 131 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: pooping on us. Did jujits get pooped on? Really? Oh? 132 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: I think I did too. Maybe the universe is trying 133 00:09:53,360 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: to tell us something. Maybe the universe was sending us 134 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: a sign that it was time to stop talking about 135 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: Carl too, as they say, cancel him. We hear so 136 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: much about cancel culture, the practice of radically shunning bad 137 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 1: actors that extends to a band on their work. Sometimes 138 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: I wish I could just cancel Carl and his work 139 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: and be done with it. And maybe that's the point 140 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: of canceling. It's an expedient way to deal with an 141 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: intractable problem. But the conventional wisdom of the art world 142 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: is to separate the art from the artist, So we 143 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: keep the Carl Andre who solves sculpture's relationship to the floor, 144 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: far away from the Carl who seemed to play a 145 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: role in his wife's death. And according to this logic, 146 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: I don't have to cancel him. According to this logic, 147 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: I should simply enjoy those Andre sculptures and leave the 148 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: mess of his personal life out of it. Is there 149 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: any moment for you where the art matters more than 150 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: its maker? Now? This is Roxanne Gay, a public thinker, 151 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: a feminist, and an opinion writer for The New York Times. 152 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: She has written that cancel culture is a misnomer. She 153 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: prefers to call it consequence culture. I don't think that 154 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: we're preserving anything when we preserve the work of murderers. 155 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: Because Carl was acquitted, I've been careful not to say 156 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: he is a murderer, And by careful, what I really 157 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: mean is compelled legally not to do so, because legally 158 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: that word is not a fact. Legally, it's just an opinion. 159 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: The world will be fine without Carl Andre, and his 160 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: work is beautiful. His work is absolutely beautiful. It's a 161 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: shame that someone with that much talent could not control himself. 162 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: I don't know why we keep putting the onus on 163 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: our cells, like why do you feel this way? Like no, 164 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: he's the problem, Like go ask him why he had 165 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: to be such a piece of shit. And the men 166 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: are the ones who should have to answer for themselves. 167 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: I can't lie. I had a brief moment listening to 168 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: Roxanne when I felt the weight of this whole dilemma 169 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: lift off my shoulders. Of course, the world will be 170 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: fine without carl Andre's work. Of course men should control themselves. 171 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: How is this my problem? But after the interview I 172 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: had trouble with the my part. Was it really just 173 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: up to me? When individuals stop supporting an artist's work, 174 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,599 Speaker 1: do we think this individual action has real life repercussions 175 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: or consequences, as Roxanne Gay would say, And if that's 176 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: the case, is cancel culture another way of replacing group 177 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: responsibility with individual choice. As someone who worked in museums 178 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: for most of my life, this highly individual response didn't 179 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: seem quite right. One of the things that's interesting about 180 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: museums is that they are the place where art gets 181 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: to be public. And when that happens, then art is 182 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: really about all of us. It's about society. It is 183 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: a public record of what we think, feel and believe. 184 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: So what's important was how as a society we were 185 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: going to handle this kind of ethical dilemma. When I 186 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: was a museum curator, I was what folks call a gatekeeper, 187 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: meaning I was someone who determined what art the public 188 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: got to see. This meant my so called personal decisions 189 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: had public ramifications. I would feel comfortable with a Carl 190 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: Andrea sculpture at the MET, for sure. That's Max Wholeline, 191 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, one of the 192 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: most important museums in the world. He said he'd be 193 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: fine was showing a sculpture by Carl Andre at the MET. 194 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: We're talking about museums as being the sort of the 195 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: primary institution that creates the discourse publicly around art. I'm 196 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: curious how you would respond to the Gorilla Girls. Their 197 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: quote unquote solution to this quote unquote problem is a 198 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: radical rewriting of museum wall label so that you couldn't 199 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: put up a Carl Andre without informing your public of 200 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:40,479 Speaker 1: this kind of controversial, complex ethical conundrum. Can you imagine 201 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: such wall labels at the Met? About those wall labels, 202 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: the Gorilla Girl suggested a wall label that would go 203 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: something like this, Carl Andre was accused of murdering his wife, 204 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: the artist on a Mendieta. He was represented by a 205 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: highly paid lawyer at a bench trial and was acquitted, 206 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: and he made very few public states. It's about it thereafter, 207 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: if the life of that human being is not exactly 208 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: ingrained into the artistic work itself, then I think that 209 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: there's still an issue with that. So if an artist 210 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: in his life killed two people so drunk and driving, 211 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: so is that then a relevant information that you need 212 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: to provide the visitor of a museum to see a 213 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: particular work that obviously has nothing to do with it 214 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: with it Basically, Max says we should follow the lead 215 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: of the artist. If their work isn't specifically related to 216 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: a particular event in their life, then there's no need 217 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: for the museum to bring it to the attention of 218 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: the public. Do you think it's possible, Max, that you're 219 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: lagging now this old idea about artists somehow being protected 220 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: their bad behavior being protected because they're geniuses and they 221 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: make these extraordinary objects. Are we behind here? I mean, 222 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: obviously you're hinting at that. I think it's about the 223 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: question of if you listen to music, if you read literature, 224 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: if you see an artwork, if for you the most 225 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: relevant thing is to first know the artistic biography, and 226 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Is there anyone you've given up? 227 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: Woody Allen, Bill Cosby? Have you had any more personal 228 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: moment of reckoning around these issues? I used to love 229 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: HP Lovecraft's ooks, which, on the other hand, when you 230 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: go dig deeper into his own story and he's somewhat 231 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: rooted in white supremacists thoughts, you then look at that 232 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: work in a different way, and you see that in 233 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: a kind of a different context. Max doesn't read HP 234 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: Lovecraft anymore, and I sadly don't watch Woody Allen films anymore. 235 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: And the more I talk to folks about what happened 236 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: to Anna, the more I knew that if I still 237 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: worked in a museum, there would be no way I 238 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: could put a work by Carl Andrea on public view. 239 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: Did that mean I had flipped into canceling him? I've 240 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: always been willing to separate the personality of the artists 241 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: from the work they produce. That's Amy Cappolazzo, a leading 242 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 1: figure in the contemporary art market, well known for her 243 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: stints at the two most powerful auction houses Sotheby's and Christie's, 244 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: a number of the great artists of the twentieth century. 245 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: We're awful to the women in their lives that I 246 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: know so many artists that didn't raise their children and 247 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: were shitty to their kids. I mean, what's the beginning 248 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: and end of all this? So I think I'm always 249 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: concerned about when we conflate the personal with the professional. 250 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: Amy is also a huge fan of Anamendietta's and is 251 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: fortunate enough to live with several of her pieces. She 252 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: was a very important artist in my life, personally and professionally. 253 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 1: When I really could afford to buy a work of art, 254 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: one of the first things I bought was Anamandetta suite 255 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: of photograph four photographed silhouetta with clay from the Wahaka series, 256 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: and I have self portrait with blood from nineteen seventy four. 257 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: Did you ever buy a work by carl Andre for yourself? 258 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: I never did know, but they were never They were 259 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: always stratospherically more expensive. Do you think carl Andre killed 260 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: on him Indietta. There's been moments where I think he 261 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: probably did, and there's moments where I say I shouldn't 262 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: be so judgmental because I really don't know. I guess 263 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: because he was acquitted, right, because we believed in the 264 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: legal system, and he was acquitted, whether you believed he 265 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: deserved to be acquitted or not, we had to kind 266 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: of accept that and live with that. I suggested to 267 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: Amy that it seemed unfair that Carl still got to 268 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: have his life and career because the art world acted 269 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: like nothing had happened. But it turned out Amy's crossed 270 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: paths with Carl professionally, and she had a different take. 271 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: I believe Carl under has suffered tremendously as a net 272 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: result of that episode, both personally and professionally. It felt 273 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: ostracized and was forced into a certain kind of isolation. 274 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: I think he lived in more fearful and smaller and 275 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: more subdued life than he might have had this episode 276 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: not happened. And while he was celebrated for his artistic contributions, 277 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: which remain whether he killed or didn't kill her, not 278 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: re enjoyed any of it. So that's the price. The 279 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: punishment that was exacted is more personal in that way. 280 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: It's true a quiet descended around Carl in the wake 281 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: of Anna's death, even though he still showed and still sold. 282 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: He didn't get the kind of accolades and special treatment 283 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: that his fellow minimalists did until twenty fourteen, when the 284 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: retrospective Adia and the accompanying press made it seem like 285 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: he was going to be completely rehabilitated. This didn't seem 286 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: to impact Amy's position. She was adamant that the life 287 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: of the artist and the art object beheld apart. In 288 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: my life and career, been able to talk about Ondietta's 289 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: work and carl Andre's work without ever mentioning the episode 290 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: that happened. And why do you make that choice? Oh? 291 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: Because because if Anna Mendietta is reduced to that episode, 292 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: you are negating everything she stood for as an artist. 293 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: And this is the conversation I resent. Like the point 294 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: of being an artist so your art outlives you, so 295 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: that you tell a story in a narrative or it 296 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: lasts forever. And if she is reduced to that episode, 297 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: you have negated everything she worked hard to be as 298 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: an artist. The work is separate from the individual. It 299 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 1: has to be, that's the point of being an artist, 300 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: just like Anna Mendieta's work is separate from her death. 301 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: I completely agree with Amy. One of the things that 302 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: makes are great is that it outlives us. I understand 303 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: wanting to untether Anna's work from her untimely death. I 304 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: understand wanting to be able to talk about her work 305 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: without having to take into account the tragedy that she 306 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: had no idea was coming. But both Max and Amy 307 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: can tolerate these pockets of silence, And it turns out 308 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: I've been troubled by silence the whole time. Maybe I'm 309 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: upset by the silence because as a gay person, I 310 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: have to be public about my most private self in 311 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: order to be fully human. The conversations we had about 312 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: Anna and Carl showed me how much I believe in 313 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: the power of talking about difficult things. And these conversations 314 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: changed how I feel about Carl's work, and they also 315 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: shifted my sense of what should and should not be 316 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: shared with the public. Spending all this time with Anna 317 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: and Carl helped me realize that I wanted to be 318 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: a member of a community that discusses grave and difficult things. 319 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: It's clear that our geniuses can do horrible things. It's 320 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: clear that talent and violence can exist in the same person. 321 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: But I've come to see cancel culture solution as another 322 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: form of silence. What if instead of silence upon silence, 323 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: the gatekeepers told the whole story, the whole, messy, complicated, infuriating, 324 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: sad and complex story. When Anna died, the rights to 325 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: her art automatically defaulted to Carl, but shortly after her death, 326 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: Carl turned those rights over to her family, and for 327 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: the last two decades her estate has been managed by 328 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: a prominent New York gallery, and her legacy has grown 329 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: a lot. By the time the two thousands rolled around, 330 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: things really started to pick up. She had a major 331 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: touring retrospective exhibition. Her work is owned by many of 332 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: the most important museums in the country, and she was 333 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: included not once but twice in Mamma's most recent reinstallation 334 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: of their collection. And in twenty and eighteen, she showed 335 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: up in the New York Times series Overlooked No More, 336 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: the newspaper's attempt to redress the hundreds of people, primarily 337 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: women and people of color, who did not garner an 338 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: obituary in The New York Times as whiter and mailer days. 339 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: They called her unapologetically feminist, which made me laugh because 340 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: I hadn't realized feminism required an apology. It's twenty twenty two, 341 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: and if Annaware alive, she'd be seventy three seventy three now. 342 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: Her work means a lot to a lot of people, 343 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: especially to women, and especially to women artists. Similar to 344 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: free to calla Anna is symbolic for people, she stands 345 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: for something more than just her artwork. Her life and 346 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: her death matter a great deal, and for some of 347 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: her fans, reverence is accompanied by rage. These are the 348 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: folks who started the where is Anna Mendietta hashtag, the 349 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: folks who show up to protest when Carl Andre's work 350 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: is on view. To be honest, Without these women, I'm 351 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: not sure anyone would have thought to revisit this story. 352 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: So I want to introduce you to two people who 353 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: broke the art world's habitual silence. My name is Kristin Clifford, 354 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: and I'm an artist. I'm fifty years old. My work 355 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: is about bodily autonomy, reproductive justice, feminist health. Kristin first 356 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: encountered Anna Mendietta's work in the late nineteen eighties in 357 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: a high school art class. The students were given a 358 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: bunch of art magazines and told to make collages, and 359 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: I actually cut out a picture of one of Anna 360 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: Mendietta's Silhouettas I made a collage of all of these 361 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:02,959 Speaker 1: women's bodies in art by women artists, I felt like 362 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: the only value that I had was my looks, my body, 363 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: my sexuality. I had already been raped. I had no 364 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: way to speak about that, no way to talk about it, 365 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: no one to tell. And so when I saw these images, 366 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: like when I saw the Sea Luetta of Anna Mendieta, 367 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: when I saw Moffatt Street, I saw myself. I really 368 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: felt and saw myself in this work. You might remember 369 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: that we started this show with Anna's first major work, 370 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: Moffett Building Piece, a film that shows anonymous pedestrian responses 371 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 1: to Blood on the Street, a work made in response 372 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: to a rape and murder on campus. Kristen told us 373 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: the story of her assault, and it was hard to 374 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: listen to it. Turns out, listening to women and can 375 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: be devastating, which is maybe why our society has such 376 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: a hard time doing it. When I was raped when 377 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: I was fifteen, the friends of the boy who raped 378 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: me made a tape of themselves talking about him assaulting name. 379 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: They were not boys they were over eighteen. I was 380 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: in high school and they were college students, and they 381 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: all recorded themselves laughing about me, how they should have 382 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: wrapped me up and put me in the refrigerator and 383 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: had leftovers in the morning, how it was sad that 384 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: not all of them got to take a turn. And 385 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: then they gave Christen the tape so she could listen 386 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: to it. And that certainly had a huge part in 387 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: my artistic career. And like wanting to be seen, needing 388 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: to show my own version of events, wanting to see 389 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: women telling their own version of their own lives, and 390 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: feminist art is where I saw that. I didn't see 391 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: it anyway, I didn't see it on TV. Fast forward 392 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: almost three decades. It's twenty fourteen and the Carl Andre 393 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: retrospective is about to start. Kristen teaches a college class 394 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: on rape culture and makes feminist art. She's raising two kids, 395 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: and one night she puts her kids to bed, makes 396 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: a cup of tea, and picks up the latest art 397 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: magazine to find an article about Carl. So I just 398 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: made a Facebook event and started tweeting like there will 399 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: be blood. I was just really angry. I just was like, 400 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to fucking throw blood in front of DIA. 401 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: Nobody knows who I am, Nobody cares. It's not like 402 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: i have some art career to protect. I'm never going 403 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: to show a DIA. I'm never going to show it 404 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: a museum. Who gives a shit. I'm struck by Kristen 405 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: sense that her ability to speak comes from her simlet 406 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: eyed assessment of where she sits in the art world 407 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: pecking order. In my experience, the more powerful one is, 408 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: the more one tends to tow the party line. Lord knows, 409 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: I have been incredibly anxious about doing this podcast. All 410 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,239 Speaker 1: kinds of folks have let me know they didn't think 411 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: this was such a good idea. More than one person 412 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: said upon hearing about it, Oh that's brave, as in, 413 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: oh that's crazy. So Kristen and about fifteen to twenty 414 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: other people, all in white jumpsuits, showed up in front 415 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: of the DIA Foundation office, not the actual museum, but 416 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: their offices in Manhattan, and they began to chant I 417 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: wish I was still alive. And then Kristin took out 418 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: a plastic bag of chicken blood she'd gotten from the 419 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: butcher and dumped it on the sidewalk while others kept chanting, 420 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: and there was a real moment there of sorrow for 421 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: her death. The police came and asked the protesters to leave, 422 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: which they did. To me, it was just to let 423 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: Dia as a whole no that we were pissed off 424 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: that they were part of this rehabilitation of carl Andre's 425 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: reputation that to me was just so wrong. That small 426 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: protest sparked the next one. I reached out to Kristin 427 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: Clifford and I told her what I was thinking about 428 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: doing and whether she would want to join us. My 429 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: name is Jennie Fittamaijo. I am a poet, performer, an essayist. 430 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: I tend to write books and performan says that center 431 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: around the rescripting and reimagining of undocumented migrants in the US. 432 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: Like Kristen, Jennifer has deeply personal reasons for loving on A. 433 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: Mendietta's work. I was born in Wiska Territory which is 434 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: currently known as Bogota, Columbia. My family left after a 435 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: lot of the violence of the eighties when I was 436 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: five years old, and my mother and I crossed the 437 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: border without documents. I think that sense of displacement, the 438 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: sense of longing, that desire for the land, desire for 439 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: home is definitely I think one of the connections. Jennifer 440 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: was in art school when she first encountered a photo 441 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: from Mendietta Silhouetta series on a visit to a museum. 442 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: I remember feeling immediately connected to it and simultaneously really angry, 443 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: as it felt like had I not seen this work before? 444 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 1: How had I not encountered these images before? And so 445 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: a few months into the DA show, Jennifer and a 446 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: small group of other folks arrived to protest, and this 447 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: time they didn't want to stay outside. They planned to 448 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: go into the gallery space and cry. I wanted a 449 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: gesture that would focus not so much Andrea himself, but 450 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: in the people in the room who gathered to grief. 451 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 1: The trope of the crying woman who has been either 452 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: jilted or left behind or whatever, you know, all those 453 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: things are going to crying felt so appropriate, and it's 454 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: also linked to, you know, ideas of like an overly 455 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: emotional woman, feminine excess. All of those things. They spread 456 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: out and sat on the floor next to or on 457 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: top of Carl Andres sculptures. The space was suddenly transformed 458 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,719 Speaker 1: in the having people just sit on the floor, and 459 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: so suddenly it was like, oh no, we're the thing 460 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: cutting through the space. You know, a lot of Andrea's 461 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: work is about cutting through the space with materials and 462 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: rearranging space. Suddenly, our bodies, predominantly, you know, women's bodies 463 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: were now cutting through the space of the gallery by 464 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: sitting or laying in front of pieces in this you know, 465 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: very sort of like bright, cool room. And then they 466 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: began to cry. The sounds of it were so echoy 467 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: and intense because of the space is so large, and 468 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: I remember being like, I'll sit here and cry forever. 469 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: In the moment of the tears, inside of the gallery 470 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 1: saw liquid tears against rigid structures and forms. It was 471 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: the way of remembering her, and it was a way 472 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: of bringing her to life and reminding Anna that we 473 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: haven't forgotten her. It wasn't to send a message to institutions, 474 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: because I don't really believe that they want to listen necessarily. 475 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: It's mostly about a kind of mutual care for each 476 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: other inside of the space that very much doesn't really care. 477 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: When I hear these stories, they make me question who 478 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: we think art is for Is it for experts like 479 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: me and Amy Coppolazzo and Max Holine. Is it all 480 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: about the pleasures of insider baseball? Or is it for 481 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: the fifteen year old girl who got raped or the 482 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: young woman who crossed the border with her mother. Obviously 483 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: it's for all of those people and then some. But 484 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: I think those of us who are experts and gatekeepers 485 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: have a responsibility to share our knowledge with the public. 486 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: Let's face it, all the experts know the story of 487 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: Carl and Anna. It strikes me that we, the gate keepers, 488 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: are being terribly paternalizing when we decide the public doesn't 489 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: need to know facts that we all know. I think 490 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: we have to think about that young teenage girl in 491 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: the gallery. What version of my expertise do I owe her? 492 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: Is withholding how Anna died? Protecting her or any viewer 493 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: for that matter. Perhaps the better thing to do is 494 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 1: reframe the question. When we are silent, who is being 495 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: protected by that silence? Carl's silence and the silence of 496 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: art World insiders ends up feeling like an omission of 497 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: the truth, a lapse that seems to suggest that Anna 498 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: could be erased from Carl's story, or that his legacy 499 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: could be sanitized to make it more palatable, more polite. 500 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 1: After the Carl Andrea retrospective, some of the me too 501 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: energy online spilled over to Karl. The where is Anna 502 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: Mendietta hashtag followed him around, appearing on social media any 503 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 1: time his name popped up in art world news. That 504 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: swell of anger prompted one more story about Karl to emerge, 505 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: this time from the actress Ellen Barkham. In January twenty twenty, 506 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: she tweeted about an incident from the nineteen seventies. I 507 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: was a twenty two year old waitress working a party 508 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: for painter Karl Andrea. Andrea got angry over his service, 509 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: shoving me against a wall, his hands around my neck, 510 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 1: pulling me up till my feet left the floor. Three 511 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,399 Speaker 1: men got him off me. It was retweeted almost five 512 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 1: thousand times. As a feminist, I don't think I should 513 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: look away from the controversy over how Anna Mendietta died. 514 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: As an art historian, I can't write Carl Andrea out 515 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: of the story. I don't want to erase anything from 516 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: the history books. I'd prefer to add I'm interested in 517 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: what happens when the silence is lifted, like what happens 518 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: when I have to think about my adolescent zeal for 519 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: walking on carl Andre's work. Knowing everything I know now 520 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: was part of the thrill that I could break a 521 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: rule in public, and that I knew I could break it, 522 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: and that other visitors might not know. So part of 523 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: the thrill was kind of daring someone to say something 524 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: to me about it because I knew something other people 525 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: didn't know, and that energy, well, that's asshole energy, and 526 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: that's why it feels good. And now, knowing what I know, 527 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: I'm a little more wary about that kind of energy. 528 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: I even feel a little embarrassed on behalf of my 529 00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: younger self, especially as I think about my role might 530 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 1: be as a bystander to violence, which was Anna's question 531 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: from the very beginning. The upshot of all of this 532 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 1: is the thinking about the art and the life simultaneously 533 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: means we can think new things, both ethically and esthetically, 534 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: and while this might be hard to do, in the 535 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: end it gets us a much more complex story. And 536 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: it's in the name of complexity that I wonder what 537 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: would happen if when we lift the silence, we do 538 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: so with compassion, Compassion for those who have been hurt, 539 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: Compassion for those for whom silence is a form of violence, 540 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: Compassion even for those who have done the harm. It 541 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: turns out what I want is more talking. I want 542 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: a discourse that accounts for public and private art and life. 543 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: I want an open field of end, not a closed 544 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: field where some things can be said and others cannot. 545 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: I want to be part of a culture that can 546 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: handle the messiness, the not knowing, the complexity. I want 547 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: us to have as many public conversations as it takes 548 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: to understand why men are allowed to hurt those who 549 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 1: have less power than them. I want silence to be 550 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,280 Speaker 1: replaced with talking, because I think it's the only way 551 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: we might be able to forge some kind of path 552 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 1: toward repair. I have to end this story with no end, 553 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: so it seems like the only thing to do is 554 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: end with a work by Annamandietta. In a short video 555 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: she made called Oshon, we see two sinuous lines of 556 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: mud in the middle of a tidal river. The handmade 557 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: walls of dirt look like two snakes or two halves 558 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: of the outline of a body, but the water is 559 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: doing its thing without a care in the world it flows, 560 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: and it's clear that eventually it will slowly erode these 561 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: two forms. Anna made this work in Key Biscayne, Florida. 562 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: She made it in the warm waters of the Atlantic, 563 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: waters that make a mockery of national borders as they 564 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: flow between a place we call the United States, in 565 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: an island we call Cuba. In Santaria, Oshun is the 566 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: goddess of rivers and love. She came in the boats 567 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: that carried the Yoruba people who were stolen and sold, 568 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: and the descendants of those people worship her to this day. 569 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: They say you can never step in the same river twice. 570 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: They say love is forever. They say art is long 571 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: and life is short. I hear all of these things 572 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: in my head when I look at honest work. I 573 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: hear her work admonishing us to pay more attention every 574 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: day to the world around us, to see how the 575 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: land is changing. And I hear her whispering, asking us 576 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: how are we going to change along with it. Death 577 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: of an Artist is a co production between Pushkin Industries, 578 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 1: Something Else and Sony Music Entertainment, written and hosted by 579 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: me Helen Mouldsworth. Exact producers are Lizzie Jacobs, Tom Kanegg, 580 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: lital Malad, Jacob Weisberg, and Lucas Werner. Produced by Maria 581 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: Luisa Tucker, editing by Lizzie Jacobs. Our managing producer is 582 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: Jacob Smith. Associate producers are Pooge Rue and Eloise Linton. 583 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: Additional production helped by Tali Abacassas, Pira Acibe Bansu, Rahima 584 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: Nasa and Harrison VJ Choi. Engineered by Sam Bear, fact 585 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:33,439 Speaker 1: checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Our production coordinator is ek Eggbatola. 586 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: Our theme song is by Pooge Rue. Special thanks to 587 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:42,720 Speaker 1: Corolla Hoppt, Natalia Delgado, Mia LaBelle, and the Robert Katz Family. 588 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: Thanks also to our legal team Louise Carrion, Lauren Pagoni, 589 00:41:47,320 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: Gen Womack, and the team at Clara's Law. If you 590 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: love this show, consider subscribing to pushkin Plus to listen early, 591 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 1: add free and get exclusive bonus content. Look for the 592 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus channel on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm. 593 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 1: Find more great podcasts from Sonymusic Entertainment at sonymusic dot com. 594 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: Backslash Podcasts