1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. And Robert, 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: you're a guy who practices meditation sometimes, right, Well, I 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: practice yoga, which entails a certain amount of meditation. Uh, 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: And I have I have dabbled in meditation, but I 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: do not currently have a rigorous meditative practice in place 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: in my life. When you've dabbled, which of the schools 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: of meditation did you try? Oh? You know, it was 10 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: one of these where I just kind of ran up 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: to the buffet of meditation and tried what was you know, 12 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: which steamer tray had been most recently filled and was available? 13 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: So everything, Yeah, a little of everything. Because I've tried 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: some closed eye meditation, some um, some open eye meditation. 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: I've some monterra Ronian cheese. Yeah, I mean I've well, 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: I've tried stuff that's more on the secular side and 17 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: stuff that's that has more of a spiritual connotation to it. 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: And uh, it's one of those things where I feel 19 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: like the first time you try it, especially if someone 20 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: has convinced you that you need to try meditation or 21 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: you need to try Look like, it's the same thing 22 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: with yoga. When you're when someone tells you you need 23 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: to try this out, there's a strong chance you are 24 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: you're not going to really get it the first time, 25 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: that you might even dislike it the first time. But 26 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: when you have time to reflect on what you experience 27 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: and then you time to try it again, kind of 28 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: at your own pace, then you can begin to see 29 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: the value in it. You know, something I've noticed in 30 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: recent years about the role of yoga and meditation in 31 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: Western culture is that it has gone from something that's 32 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: widely considered a kind of uh, you know, esoteric practice 33 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: to something that is almost kind of a I don't 34 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: know what you'd call it. Like. Sometimes it seems weird 35 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: to meet people who don't do yoga. I don't do yoga, um, 36 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: but it seems like everybody I know it does yoga 37 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: at least a little bit or or talks about the 38 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: benefits of meditation. And I wonder if this is just 39 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: something that changed. I don't know, when I moved to 40 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: a bigger city. When I you know, when I moved 41 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: to Atlanta, I started noticing a lot more people were 42 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: into meditation and yoga. But I don't know. Have you 43 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: noticed this similar trend in the past five years or so. Yeah, well, 44 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: I mean part of it is urban centers are going 45 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: to have more opportunities for this sort of thing. But 46 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: there there has been a steady influx of meditative yogain 47 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: I just kind in Eastern and New Age ideas in general. 48 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: But it feels like these ideas have become mainstream in 49 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: Western culture fairly recently. Like they you know, they were 50 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: there as an esoteric practice in Western culture for some 51 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: number of decades, maybe since the middle late twentieth century, 52 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: and then and now they're fully mainstream. You see yoga 53 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: studios every where, their meditation apps that everybody's talking about there, 54 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: they've all got on their phones biz bros or trying 55 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: out meditation. I know you've seen this trend to right, 56 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: All all the biz bro manager types are like, yeah, 57 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: I use meditation to maximize my potential. You might not 58 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: remember this, but we had a yoga teacher come to 59 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: how Stuff works in recent years and he did a 60 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: yoga class for the company, of which I was the 61 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: only person who attended. But this was years ago. You 62 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: might not I don't know if you're even I don't 63 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: think I was aware of this, but he had a 64 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: full list of his offerings and it included like yoga 65 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: for golf fires, yoga for CEOs, that sort of thing, 66 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: you know, Um, yoga, yoga for how to fire people. 67 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, how to detach and all. Um. Yeah, 68 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: it is. It is interesting because on one hand, it's 69 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: easy to look at it and say, well, you're taking 70 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: you're taking something that maybe has more cultural value or 71 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: more religious or spiritual value, and then you're sort of 72 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: boiling it down or you're you're stripping it apart and 73 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: then selling those parts to people. Well, yeah, I mean, 74 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: and whether you take a a spiritual or religious or 75 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: a secular view of meditation, these are profound, meaningful cultural 76 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: practices that go back for thousands of years. Yeah. I mean, 77 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: there are certainly cases with especially with yoga, where we 78 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: don't we're not always aware of how recently they've been 79 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: changed by by Western hands and Western minds. But um, 80 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: I guess I was thinking specifically of meditation. Yeah. Well, 81 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: I keep I keep coming back to this example when 82 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: it comes to things like this. So, uh, years ago, 83 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: I was at like a dinner party or something, and 84 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: I got to talking about I think I think I 85 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,239 Speaker 1: was talking about Buddhism or something with someone and Alan 86 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: Watts came up. Familiar with that one Watts a little bit. Yeah, 87 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: so uh. The other individuals said, well, you know Alan Watts, 88 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: he's he's kind of the Walmart of Buddhism, isn't he. Uh? 89 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: And I think she kind a minute as a as 90 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: as a put down of of Alan Watts. And and 91 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: sometimes I think back to that and and if you 92 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: if you look at it with the idea that the 93 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: Buddhism in this case has a central truth to it, 94 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: a truth that should be shared with the world, and 95 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: or even you know, wants to be shared with the world, 96 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: then don't you want it in Walmart? Like you need 97 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: you need there to be a Walmart of Buddhism, you 98 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: need there to be a Walmart of yoga and meditation 99 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: if you would all believe in the values of these things. Yeah. 100 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: So that's um, that's sort of the question I was 101 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: wondering about, Like, if you are somebody who participates in 102 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: in this deep, long rooted, profound cultural tradition of meditation, 103 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: so you're a you're a monk or something who does 104 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: meditation as part of your spiritual practice. Are are you 105 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: offended by yoga for golf? Are you offended by you know, 106 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: the meditation app that will help you be a better 107 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: business manager? Or is that or do you just say yeah, 108 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: that that's great. More more people are taking it up, 109 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: more people are seeing the benefits, and it's going to 110 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: more of the world. Yeah, I guess it's one of 111 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: those things where it's the answer is going to vary 112 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: from person to person and tradition to tradition. But uh, yeah, 113 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: we obviously we'd love to hear back from listeners on 114 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: that because I know we have a number of listeners 115 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: who are involved in various UH yoga or meditation practices. 116 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: So when we're talking about meditative practices and meditation here, 117 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: UH meditative practices date back at least as far as 118 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: the second millennium BC and UH and this goes back 119 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: to the Vedic traditions in India, and since that time, 120 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: countless models have spread throughout human culture, weaving their way 121 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: through Hindu, Buddhist, Daoist, Jewish, Christian, and Islamic traditions. Secular 122 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: approaches range from elementary school mindfulness instruction UH to meditation apps, 123 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,559 Speaker 1: which you mentioned already from the modern tech savvy human 124 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: and styles of meditation also range from stationary to walking, 125 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: closed eye to open eye, seeded to floating. Yeah, and 126 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: there there are these major schools of meditation you've probably 127 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: heard about, such as like the mindfulness meditation or the 128 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: transcendental meditation or compassion meditation. Right, and then of course 129 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: there are different schools, transidental meditation being a major one. 130 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: That's the one that goes to the Mahirishi Maheshioki, right, yes, correct, Now. 131 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: I think it's worth noting though, that at the center 132 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: of all of these practices, essentially as you have awareness, 133 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: one of, if not the key attributes of human consciousness. 134 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: We come back to that again and again on the show. 135 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: So meditation you could maybe think of as uh, first 136 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: person experiments in attention something like that. Yeah, like I was, 137 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: I was thinking about it recently. Like it seems like 138 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: it's nothing short of the deliberate manipulation of the human 139 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: experience itself. I am changing my awareness, or I'm refocusing 140 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: my awareness, and in doing so, I'm kind of reshaping 141 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: my world. I'm kind of reshaping my uh, my experience 142 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: of reality. At least in the short term. It's weird 143 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: to think about how much of our lives we go 144 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: through without intentionally controlling what we're paying attention to. We 145 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: just pay attention to whatever it occurs to us in 146 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: the moment to pay attention to, rather than making a 147 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: deliberate effort to concentrate our awareness in one way or another. Yeah, 148 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: and it's one of the reasons I think everyone should 149 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: try some sort of meditation or some sort of yoga 150 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: at some point, like some sort of a mindfulness exercise, 151 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: even if it ends up not being the thing for you. 152 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: Uh it. At times it can kind of like, I 153 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: feel like you can kind of wake you up, You 154 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: can kind of force you to realize, um, you know, 155 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: what kind of noise is going on in your head 156 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: at any given moment. One meditative thought that you introduced 157 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: to me that I've never heard before, but you brought 158 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: it up on the podcast one time was just sitting 159 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: down and coming back to the thought repeatedly, I wonder 160 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: what my next thought is going to be. Since you 161 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: mentioned this, I've tried it and it's a really interesting experience. Cool. Yeah, 162 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: that one, I believe that was an Eckhart tolle uh idea. 163 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: I mean it's kind of a mantra, and in many respects, 164 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: but a very simplified, boiled down mantra. It's just kind 165 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: of like sticking a sticking a little roadblock into your 166 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: constant highway of mental traffic. Yeah. It has a way 167 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: of calling attention to the fact that your mind is 168 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: sort of this deep chasm through from which things emerge 169 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: without really you having any control over. And usually this 170 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: just happens to you and you don't notice. It is 171 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: just like, yeah, I'm just thinking, but thinking about thinking 172 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: makes thinking become very mysterious. Yeah, it does. It. It 173 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: forces you to to to reflect on your own cognitive 174 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: processes and trying to figure out what's going on there. Now. Meditation, 175 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: obviously is everyone can tell from the discussion thus far. 176 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: It touches on cognition, It touches on various aspects of 177 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: of of human health, and therefore there have been a 178 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: number of studies over the years that have looked into 179 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: it's it's possible effectiveness on mental or physical health, looking 180 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: at exactly what it does, like what is the meditative 181 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: meditative state look like in the brain and uh, and 182 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: you know, there have been some some key findings that 183 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: have certainly made the rounds over the years and sort 184 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: of forced people to to to look more closely in meditation. Uh. 185 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: One one study that they made a lot of headlines 186 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: was the two thousand twelve study from the Institute for 187 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: Natural Medicine and Prevention. They that found that African Americans 188 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: with heart disease who practice transcendental meditation were less likely 189 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: to experience a heart attack or stroke. Yeah, so I 190 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: want to come back to that claim in a minute. Uh. 191 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: I've got complex feelings about the medical research on meditation, 192 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: which we were talking about this off Mike before we 193 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: came on. But um, I would not put them in 194 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: exactly the same bucket with but sort of adjacent to 195 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: the bucket of prayer studies, meaning that both, I guess 196 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: both fit into a larger bucket in this world of buckets, 197 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: the Russian dolls of buckets that we live in. Um. So, 198 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: when it when it comes to these types of research, 199 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: I think some skeptics would look at prayer studies and 200 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: meditation studies and say, why would you waste your time? 201 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: You know what? Why what what can be gained from 202 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: studying this? You can already be pretty sure it's a 203 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: bunch of magical bs, and it's going to be conducted 204 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: by believers who are going to cut corners and their 205 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: methodology to make their worldview look good. And so there's 206 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: part of that I agree with. In part I don't 207 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: agree with. I don't at all agree with the idea 208 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: of why would you waste your time because I don't know. 209 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: I think it makes more sense to be the kind 210 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,239 Speaker 1: of skeptic that says, well, bring it on, let's see, 211 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: um if it gets good results, and if other people 212 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: can replicate those results, especially hostile people who are you know, 213 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: not part of this worldview, can replicate the same results, 214 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: I think that's something we want to know about, and 215 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: certainly if it's something that can be scientifically studied. Yeah. Now, 216 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: on the other hand, I do think there's some merit 217 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: to the idea that things like prayer studies and meditation 218 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: studies require some careful scrutiny before we accept their results, 219 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: because there are some people who are convinced of the 220 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 1: results before they start looking for them. Now, that's definitely 221 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: not true of all meditation researchers, I think, right, Yeah, 222 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: I mean I mean for starters with prayer there, it 223 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: seems like that's more likely a problem because there's not 224 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: really much in the way of secular prayer out there. 225 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: I feel like, for the most part, if you are 226 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: praying to a deity or a group of deities, you 227 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: have some level of belief where you usually you're taking 228 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: on some level of belief in those deities. Though, I 229 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: think you could come up with secular explanations for the 230 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: successive prayer. Like, certainly if you had prayer studies that worked, 231 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: I think that wouldn't necessarily prove any kind of magical 232 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: thing and would just say, well, prayer has some kind 233 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: of benefits, and you could explain that in terms of 234 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: psychology of groups, social dynamics, all kinds of things. Yeah, 235 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: but again to I mean, to your point, there are 236 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: plenty of models of meditation that they don't involve belief 237 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: in the deity or belief in some sort of you know, 238 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: particular model of bodily energy or you know, some other 239 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: kind of like New age mechanism. Yeah. Absolutely, And in 240 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: a minute, we're actually going to air a an interview 241 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: Robert did with a local meditation researcher. What is this 242 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: researcher's name, Rob This is Dr Jennifer and Mascara, and 243 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: she's an assistant professor of Family and Preventive Medicine at 244 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: Immer University here in Atlanta, and she investigates meditation from 245 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: a secular scientific standpoint, So that can absolutely be done. 246 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: But coming back to these medical effects that people claim 247 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: are demonstrated by meditation, I don't want to rule them out, 248 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: and I think research on this is valid and I 249 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: think we should pay attention to it. But I think 250 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: it does deserve scrutiny because coming back to that one 251 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: result you mentioned about heart disease and transcendental meditation, I 252 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: found an American Heart Association scientific statement from seventeen. It 253 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: was actually just released this year. So first, a general 254 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: comment they make, quote, further research on meditation and cardiovascular 255 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: risk is warranted. Such studies, to the degree possible, should 256 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: utilize randomized study design, be adequately powered to meet primary 257 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: study outcome, strive to achieve low dropout rates, include long 258 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: term follow up, and be performed by those without inherent 259 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: bias in the outcome. So generally, they're saying that it 260 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: does appear that there could be some some good places 261 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: to go with meditation and cardiovascular health. Research, but a 262 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: lot of the studies that exist today have some of 263 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: these problems with methodology that make them less robust or 264 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: convincing than they could be. And referring to that twelve 265 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: study about cardiovascular health and transcendental meditation, they say, quote 266 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: the study though, was conducted in two phases after a 267 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: one year hiatus, with fifty eight patients not participating in 268 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: phase two of the study, and some concerns about analysis 269 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: of the data have been raised. So it sounds like 270 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: that when you get this big claim like this, wow, 271 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: you know, you get these amazing results from transcendental NEETs aitation, 272 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: they're saying, Okay, we we might want to be cautious 273 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: about over interpreting these study results because the methodology was 274 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: less than perfect, right, and is consumers we have to 275 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: be careful about sort of having the red wine or 276 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: chocolate effect with studies like this, where we like red 277 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: wine or chocolate and then when a headline comes out 278 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: that supports the thing we like, we just kind of 279 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: we we kind of check it off in our mind 280 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: and move on. Well. Yeah, and to be cautious about 281 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: those studies is not to say that red wine and 282 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: chocolate do not have their their wonderful benefits in terms 283 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: of flavor and enjoyment, And the same thing could probably 284 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: be said about meditation. I would say, even if you 285 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: don't find that meditation has any measurable cardiovascular benefits or 286 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: anything like that, benefits on long term chronic health conditions, 287 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: or pain reduction or anything like that, it's still obviously 288 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: has this role in people's lives that you know, people 289 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: get imans pleasure from it. They find that it changes 290 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: the way they view the world. It it does do something, 291 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: even if it does do everything people claim it does. 292 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: So Ultimately, I think meditation research is a highly valid 293 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: field of study and I and I wouldn't be surprised 294 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: if it turned up really effective results. But I also 295 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: think it's a field where I would I would just 296 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: tend to treat claimed results with special caution and scrutiny. 297 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: Not a fault of meditation itself. Nothing wrong with the 298 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: practice of meditation. But but but I but I always 299 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: try to be cautious whenever I see a new claim 300 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: about meditation results. So I recently partnered with the videographer 301 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: and audio producer Tyler clang Here at the Office on 302 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: a couple of interviews for a meditation video project. Now, 303 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: company priorities changed and that kind of left the project 304 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: in limbo. But I didn't want to lose the great 305 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: time content we'd already achieved, So we're gonna feature some 306 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: interview content with every university meditation researcher Dr Jennifer Moscaro 307 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: and with a physician vedic meditation teacher, Jill Wiener. This 308 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: will also enable us to to finish the video in 309 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: some form and you can look for that in the 310 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: near future. Obviously, we'll put that up on Stuff to 311 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com and and also on the 312 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: social media platforms. So let's go ahead and introduce Dr 313 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: Jennifer Mascaro here again. She's Assistant Professor of Family and 314 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: Preventive Medicine at Emory University here in Atlanta, where she's 315 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: also worked with the Department of Anthropology. She specializes in 316 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: the variation in and plasticity of human social cognition and 317 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: the biology of interconnectedness. She recently came into the studio 318 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: and chatted with us about the current state of meditation 319 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: research and her own fascinating contributions to the study of 320 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: not only mindfulness meditation, but compassion meditation. Robert. I want 321 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: to say I enjoyed this interview and I thought Dr 322 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: mscarro was great. Awesome. Well, let's take a quick break 323 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we will just jump right 324 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: into the interview questions with Dr Muscarrow. Thank you, thank alright, 325 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: we're back. Hi. Dr Mscaa, thank you for joining us here. 326 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: So my first question is just broadly speaking, what's the 327 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: current foe because of your research at Amory, Yeah, a 328 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: lot of the research that we're doing is on different 329 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 1: meditation practices that we think have the most evidence for 330 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: impacting people's well being UM. And so in particular, we're 331 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: looking at two different types of meditation. So one is 332 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: called mindfulness meditation, and that's actually what most people think 333 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: of when they hear about meditation UM. But we're also 334 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: doing a lot of research on a compassion meditation practice 335 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: that comes from a very old Tibetan Buddhist tradition UM 336 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: and is thought to cultivate feelings of connectedness with others, UM, 337 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: feelings of compassion and empathy for others. And and it 338 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: turns out that that's really good for our well being. 339 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: So what's your personal history with meditation? I started dabbling 340 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: primarily with mindfulness meditation. Back when I was in high school, 341 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: I was a really serious athlete, and um, it turns 342 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: out that mindfulness meditation is really helpful for um mitigating 343 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: stress and anxiety, especially when you're performing. And so I 344 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: used to do mindfulness practices when I was anxious about 345 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: a big game or you know, in the aftermath if 346 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: I felt like I didn't perform very well. It was 347 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 1: really helpful for not ruminating. Um. And so I dabbled 348 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: here and there. Um. But then uh, it really it 349 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: um took a new direction when I started graduate school 350 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: and I was interested in the plasticity of the brain. 351 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: And here, you know, we have these practices that have 352 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: been um uh cultivated and perfected um over you know, 353 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: many many hundreds of years that we think impact the 354 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: brain and systems in the brain that I was really 355 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: interested in studying. And so UM, I really turned from 356 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: being a dabbling practitioner to really more of an at 357 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: least hopefully objective scientist. So how do you go about 358 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: conducting hard scientific research on something like meditation. We try 359 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: to do research on meditation similar to the way you 360 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: would do research on, for example, a dru or any 361 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: intervention So the gold standard is with a randomized clinical 362 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: trial where you randomize some people to the meditation practice 363 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: that you're interested in, and you have another group that's 364 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: randomized some control group. UM, the ideal study design has 365 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: your compared meditation to an active control group. And the 366 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: reason for that is because there are a lot of 367 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: things about UH an intervention that could be helpful, could 368 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: change people that aren't due to the meditation practice itself. 369 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: You know, if it's a group practice, it may just 370 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: be meeting with a group of people that you think 371 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: are like minded. Maybe meeting with a teacher, like a 372 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: meditation teacher is really helpful because you you have someone 373 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: to uh, you know, a role model. There could be 374 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: non specific things that are kind of doing the work, 375 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: so you really want to try to control for those 376 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: types of things. So UM, one of the big ways 377 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: that meditation is studies is with that sort of design. 378 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: Another thing though, that people do is UM. They point 379 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: out that that misses a lot of the cultural, um 380 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: and contextual factors that often accompany meditation. So some people 381 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: UM and I think this is really important research to 382 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: are doing research where they're really doing more qualitative research 383 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: to try to dig in and understand what meditation means 384 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: to people when they practice it. What are the fact 385 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: the sort of contextual factors, the cultural factors that that 386 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: might be UM at play. So you're talking about stripping 387 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: away some of the ritualized cultural aspects to understand what's 388 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: actually taking place in the body and mind. But isn't 389 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: the counter argument that you can't separate these two aspects 390 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: of meditative practice exactly? And that's an issue that accompanies 391 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: a lot of different scientific domains. UM. You know, when 392 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: you try to take something and put it in a 393 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: laboratory setting to study it, you necessarily strip it front 394 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: of UM extraneous features that might be really important UM. 395 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: And so that is a debate that happens in a 396 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: lot of domains of science, but it's particularly in portant 397 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: with meditation because there are these UM sort of cultural 398 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: embedded factors that might are likely very very important and 399 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: maybe the most important. So you are often the researchers 400 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: you study meditation are often sort of straddling this difficult 401 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: question of trying to UM to empirically study a practice 402 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: in the best way they can, but all the while 403 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: not removing and reducing it to something that is less 404 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: than than what it really is. Now at least one 405 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: of your studies, you even go so far as to 406 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: avoid calling it meditation, right, So um Exactly, one of 407 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: the challenges when you do meditation research is you don't 408 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: want to bias people um at the outset. Uh. You 409 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: don't want to bring people in and and and uh 410 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: sort of enhance the placebo effect essentially um uh. And 411 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: so with a lot of our research, we really try 412 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: to reduce some of the terms that we use that 413 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 1: might convey a bias to our articipants um uh. And 414 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: then the other thing is meditation, even though we talk 415 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: about it here is being secularized and sort of stripped 416 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: of its religious connotations. It's really impossible to to to 417 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: do that. And so um there are a lot of 418 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: populations for whom that term um. You know, it comes 419 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: with some baggage or some connotations that may dissuade them 420 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: people from from practicing or change the way they um 421 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: they sort of interpreted or or accepted. And so um 422 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: we we try to minimize that the bias and our 423 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: participants as much as we can. And so one of 424 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: the ways we do that is to sometimes we don't 425 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: even call it meditation. Now on the other end of 426 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: the spectrum, emory benefits from a partnership with Tibetan monks. 427 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: How do you incorporate traditional meditation practitioners into the research. Yeah, 428 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: that's crucial, and that's one of the really exciting things 429 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: about this research is this sort of partnership between scholars 430 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: of a lot of different areas that are really coming 431 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: together to try to understand a rich tradition in uh 432 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: the richest way that they can. And so UM we 433 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: have a sort of a constant dialogue with those contemplative 434 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: practitioners to try to understand um, the historical tradition, the 435 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: textual tradition, UH, and the monastic tradition. You know, UM, 436 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: those are all those are three different things that have 437 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: UM a real bearing on what we're studying, and and 438 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: it's impossible for scientists and scholars to have expertise in 439 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: all those domains, and so it's it's really kind of 440 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: a fun. Part of what we do is a dialogue 441 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: with UM, the the Tibetan practitioners that we get to 442 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: work with, whether dealing with a traditional Eastern model or 443 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: a modern Western model. I think there's a tendency to 444 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: see meditation as an exercise and shutting out the world. 445 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: But as you already said, Uh, empathy plays an important 446 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: role in many meditation traditions as well. Can you tell 447 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: us about the Tibetan practice of lo jan, right, yeah. So, 448 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: so we look at a compassion meditation practice that emerges 449 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: from the low Jong or mind training tradition UM, and 450 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: that is a tradition that UM places a heavy emphasis 451 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: on compassion. I mean that is Uh. One of the 452 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: ultimate goals is to be a being of of compassion. 453 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: And so these are practices that are thought to help 454 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: us feel compassion, not only to the people around us 455 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: that UM we often feel compassion for, but um to 456 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: others that we don't know, and to people that we 457 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 1: often have difficult challenges with. And so UM, that's not 458 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: one of the preconceived notions that we often have about meditation. 459 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: Often when the word meditation comes up, it's about focus 460 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 1: and attention, and often it becomes a tool of achievement. UM. 461 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: But this is a tradition where UM cultivating compassion for 462 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 1: others was of of the most importance and UM. Within 463 00:25:54,720 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: that monastic tradition, the practices were really UM done quite 464 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: often to benefit others, not not to benefit oneself, not 465 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: to reduce stress or anxiety in oneself, but to benefit others. 466 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: What have you learned from your research thus far? Can 467 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: meditation actually rewire our neural circuitry for empathic behavior? Yeah, 468 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: I mean I think it's um taking our research and 469 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: coupling it with the incredible research that's coming out of 470 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: other other universities. I think it's it's safe to say 471 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: that these practices, compassion meditation practices, loving kindness meditation practices, 472 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: and even mindfulness. There's evidence that mindfulness impacts are social 473 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: connections with others. Um and Uh. This research really suggests that, UM, 474 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: that we can augment the systems in our brain that 475 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: help us connect with others, that help us read others emotions. Um. 476 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: And then when you do that, it's very clear that 477 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: there are huge health benefits. So one of the emerging 478 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: UM lines that is connecting a lot of domains of 479 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: health researches the incredible importance of our social relationships. UM. 480 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: Our social relationships impact the way our immune system functions, 481 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: the way our stress system functions, and so as soon 482 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: as you are able to bolster a feeling of connectedness, 483 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: a feeling of sort of interdependency with others. UM. You 484 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: you really do change the way you respond to the 485 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: world around you, and you it becomes less threatening, changes 486 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: our body and our brain. You also used f m 487 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: RI I in this study were able to observe the 488 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: effects of meditation in a subject's neural activity. We did 489 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 1: so UM. There are two different ways that you can 490 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: use functional MRI to study meditation. So you could have 491 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: people actually meditate in the fm RI I scanner and 492 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: see what their brain is doing while they meditate. UM. 493 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: But we did a slightly different thing. We had people 494 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: practice meditation for several weeks and then we wanted to 495 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: see how that changed the way their brain UH function 496 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: when they did certain important cognitive tasks UM. And we 497 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: found that UM, when people practice compassion meditation, they actually 498 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: got more accurate when they read other people's facial expressions. 499 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: So what we did was we showed them photographs of 500 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: the eye region of people's faces and we had them 501 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: judge what they thought the person was thinking or feeling. 502 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: And after the meditation training, they actually got more accurate. 503 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: Their scores went up, and then the activity in the 504 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: systems in the brain that are important for doing that 505 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: UM for reading other people's facial expressions. The activity in 506 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 1: those regions actually increased as well. So do you think 507 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: meditation in the form of cognitive based compassion training can 508 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: be used to boost empathy and say an actual psychopath. Yeah, 509 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: it's such an interesting question, and it's one we immediately 510 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: thought about when we found, um, the results of our 511 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: first study where we were seeing this effect on people's 512 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: ability to read facial expressions. You immediately think of populations 513 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: of people that may benefit, so children, UM, or clinical 514 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: populations that really seemed to struggle with these types of 515 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: social interactions and social skills. Um, it's we we haven't 516 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: done any studies with clinical populations in that way. UM, 517 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: so it's definitely too early to say. The other thing 518 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: that I think is a really interesting and important UM 519 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: direction for meditation research to go is really to try 520 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: to understand whether there are differences in how amenable different 521 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: people are too actually practicing. And what I mean is, UM, 522 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: there's a real likelihood that, UM, there's a bit of 523 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: a catch twenty two where the people who might benefit 524 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: most from something like cognitively based compassion training may actually 525 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: really struggle to do it, or it may not resonate 526 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: with them, they may not understand it, um. And so 527 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: I think that's particularly important when we turn our attention 528 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: to clinical populations. It may be that the populations that 529 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: would really benefit the most, or could really stand to 530 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: benefit from something like compassion meditation or mindfulness meditation, they 531 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: actually may have a real difficulty with with doing it. 532 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: So some brains are going to be a little more 533 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: susceptible to meditation than others. Well that's the hypothesis. Um, 534 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: there is a little bit of evidence. Now, UM we did, uh, 535 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: we have one study where we found that UM, people's 536 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: brain activity that related to empathy actually predicted how much 537 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: they would engage with the training. In other words, people 538 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: who had a brain that seemed to be more empathic 539 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: at the outset actually practiced more UM. And that does 540 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: suggest to us that there may be some populations of 541 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: people that take to meditation more that may find it 542 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: easier or it may resonate with them. And conversely, there 543 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: may be populations of people where for whom it's really 544 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: a struggle, they may not understand or may um not 545 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: resonate with them as much. Exactly. So, what does cognitive 546 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: based compassion training look like and what does it feel like. Yeah, 547 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: that's a great question. So UM, it's it's quite different 548 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: actually than the mindfulness meditation and practices that are often 549 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: talked about in popular media. UM. But it actually does 550 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: start with a little bit of mindfulness practices. So the 551 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: first segment of of CBCT actually is the goal is 552 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: to entrain attention um. And so there it begins with 553 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: some mindfulness to the body, mindfulness to the breath, and 554 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: then mindfulness to sort of everything, all the thoughts and 555 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: sensations that stream throughout our our mind constantly UM. But 556 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: put pretty quickly, you know, the goal there is to 557 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: to just sort of cultivate this awareness so that we 558 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: can move on to the compassion components. And UM. What 559 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: it does from there is it begins with um uh 560 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 1: an appreciation for our um, our ability to be more compassionate, 561 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: our ability to um cultivate the positive mental skills that 562 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: we have, and and a compassion for ourselves as humans 563 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: that these things are difficult um. And then it moves 564 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: from there to discussions of and and deep contemplation of 565 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: our interconnectedness with others. So um, you might think deeply 566 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: about people in your life and how much we rely 567 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: on them, even people that we don't think of very 568 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: often as being very important to us UM when we 569 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: really get down to it, we rely on so many 570 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: people in our lives for essentially everything, UM. And then 571 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: we move on to an awareness that UM, all of 572 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: those people that were interconnected with interconnected with UM, they 573 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: are at base so similar to us. UM. We are 574 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: also similar in UM wanting well being for ourselves and 575 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: for our loved ones, and really wanting to be free 576 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: of distress and suffering. And UM. Those recognitions are quite powerful, 577 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: the recognition that we are so connected with one another 578 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: and that we are at base so similar to one another. UM. 579 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: The thought is that from there emerges a natural compassion 580 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: empathy for for those around us. Broadly speaking, what sort 581 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: of rides have been made in meditation research over the 582 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: past twenty five years. Meditation research has UM come a 583 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: long way. So when it started UM years ago, it 584 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: was not in the mainstream. It was really the pioneers 585 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: of meditation research really had to do a lot of 586 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: it kind of in the back room, on the hush hush. 587 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: It was not considered rigorous science or or rigorous health. UM. Uh, 588 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: you know, a rigorous subject of to study UM. But UH, 589 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: since then those pioneers have really demonstrated, especially in the 590 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: case of mindfulness meditation, how powerful Uh some of these 591 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: practices can be how UM for a lot of different domains, 592 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: both for UM reducing suffering, so reducing depression and anxiety, 593 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: but also for enhancing the positive things like resilience. UM. 594 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: And as soon as some of that research started to 595 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: get out and started to be conducted really rigorously, UM, 596 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: it started to be taken more seriously. And so when 597 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: it is taken more seriously, doors open up, so more 598 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: research funding goes into you know, big studies with lots 599 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: of people, and all of that has a snowballing effect 600 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 1: because we're able to ask UM more nuanced and better questions. 601 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: We moved from just UM really clunky questions like is 602 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: meditation good for us, to you know, better questions like 603 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: what is it good for UM? And are there potentially 604 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 1: negative effects? You know, could it be that there are 605 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: some situations in which meditation is harmful? We start to 606 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: get a a better tool for for really studying these 607 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: things in a better way. So that's kind of how 608 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 1: I see it is UM evolving over the last twenty 609 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: five years. In the paper the neural mediators of kindness 610 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 1: based meditation a theoretical model. You mentioned that two factors 611 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,280 Speaker 1: are necessary for empathic response, a shared effective experience iriant 612 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: and a cognitive understanding. How did these come together in 613 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: empathy and what happens if either component is missing? The 614 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 1: idea is out there from the amazing social cognitive neuroscientists 615 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: that have moved this field forward, that there are these 616 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: UM that when you look at empathy as we define it, 617 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: UM as as scientists define it, it does seem to 618 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: have a few different components. And so in particular, those 619 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: do seem to be UM sort of a shared resonance 620 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: and ability to essentially try on someone else's emotions. But 621 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: at the same time there has to be some sort 622 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: of cognitive awareness that those emotions are you're feeling them 623 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: because someone else is feeling them. They're not necessarily just 624 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: your own emotions, but UM, you are recognizing them and 625 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: someone else UM. And so uh, how that plays out 626 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: is I think the million dollar question, because those seem 627 00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: to be really UM dynamic processing UM. They're talked about 628 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: as different systems in the brain that allow us to 629 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: do those different things, and it's quite likely that UM 630 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: those UH skills sort of interact where you know, sometimes 631 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: you may very cognitively attend to someone and then the 632 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: emotions follow, or quite often it's probably the reverse. So 633 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: there's probably a very dynamic um complex interplay going on 634 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: to UH that that probably differs in every experience. You know, 635 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: every we think of the times we empathize with someone, 636 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: it's it's not the same every time, you know, UM, 637 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: And so I think there's a really dynamic process going 638 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 1: on there. But one of the um to your second question, 639 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: one of the pieces of evidence that scientists look at 640 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: to suggest that they are there, that there are these 641 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,399 Speaker 1: different components is that it does appear that there are 642 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,879 Speaker 1: clinical UM cases in which one is missing but not 643 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,240 Speaker 1: the other. And so this is not cut and dry. 644 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: But UM, you mentioned psychopaths, and there is a large 645 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: bit of agreement that psychopaths tend to UM really be 646 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,280 Speaker 1: missing more the affective sort of resonance component of empathy. UM, 647 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 1: they often do okay on the more cognitive um UH 648 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: aspects of empathy, and and that the deficits really seem 649 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: to be in their ability to to mirror someone's um 650 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: UH emotions, especially negative emotions. UM, they really seem to 651 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: not resonate with others anxiety and fear and suffering the 652 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: way we do. UM. And then there are other clinical 653 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: domains autism is often brought up where there's a different 654 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: picture of what's going on. There may be more of 655 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,919 Speaker 1: the sort of cognitive piece that is that is problematic there, 656 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: and they may actually um do quite well at at 657 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: taking on other's emotions, maybe even too well. UM. So 658 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: there's it's not a cut and dry sort of situation, 659 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 1: but it does look like UM, there are different clinical 660 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: domains in which one or the other is more problematic, 661 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 1: and that tells us that these are um at least 662 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: just slightly discrete systems that are not completely synonymous. Now 663 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: when you explain it like that, I can't help but 664 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: wonder how it all shakes out in my own head, 665 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: like how much of how much of it is call 666 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: um A, how much of it is call them B? 667 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: And how does it come together? Right? Yeah? And then 668 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,959 Speaker 1: there are there's a new movement of thought out there 669 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: that um. There there are some scholars that are arguing 670 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: that we should put us push aside empathy altogether, because 671 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: what really translates into compassionate behavior is not those things, 672 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 1: but um, our morals and our ethical code and uh 673 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: and some of those types of things, and that's a 674 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: whole other domain completely, um. But there is some uh 675 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: dynamic interaction that occurs between those components that allow us 676 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 1: to to empathize and then are are deep seated sort 677 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 1: of ethical, moral and cultural codes that help us translate 678 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: that into action. So tell me this, do you think 679 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: the world would be a better place if everyone practiced meditation? 680 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,439 Speaker 1: Most of the things that we do in meditation, so 681 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: whether that's mindfulness or compassion meditation. Um. I think the 682 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: reason that they're so impactful is they're very different from 683 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: the things that we generally get sucked into doing in 684 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,399 Speaker 1: our day to day life and um so um uh 685 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: it's especially in our you know, fragmented, incredibly busy lifestyle 686 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: here in the sort of modern West. Um, we are 687 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: often disconnected from that interdependency and notions of interdependency that 688 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: are quite obvious when we're able to take some time 689 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: and look each other in the eye. Um. And so 690 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: taking the time to to reconnect with those sorts of 691 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: feelings and thoughts I think would be very powerful and 692 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: very powerful for everyone. Um Uh. There are a lot 693 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: of different meditation practices out there, and so I think 694 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: the next the way that this field is going, the 695 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: next step for the field of meditation research is really 696 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: to try to understand which practices benefit whom and for 697 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: what and um, so that will better help us answer 698 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 1: the question of should everyone do mindfulness meditation, should everyone 699 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: do compassion meditation? Or is it that some people could 700 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 1: benefit more from one or the other. Um, we're all 701 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: busy people and we don't have time to do everything. Um. 702 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: But but anything that can help us feel more connected 703 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: and look at one another in the eye and um 704 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: and notice our shared humanity, I think that would benefit 705 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: all of us. For your own part, what is the 706 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: meditative state like and what do you feel you gain 707 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: from it personally? Yeah? Um, so you know, I grapple 708 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: with a lot of this stuff, you know, from the 709 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: day to day, and so I noticed that it casually 710 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 1: impacts me all the time, you know. Um, well, I 711 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: shouldn't say all the time. Maybe not as much as 712 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: it it should. But there are many times where you know, 713 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 1: I'm in traffic and someone cuts me off, and I 714 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: behave differently than than I might have if I if 715 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking of these things quite often, but there's 716 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: a deeper, richer personal experience that comes, for example, UM, 717 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: when I am lucky enough to go on a meditation 718 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: retreat or have UM you know, longer periods of time 719 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: in more contemplative states and UM. That always strikes me 720 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: as a very interesting phenomenon of UM, this incredible emotional 721 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: richness that sort of bubbles to the surface UM and 722 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 1: UH in both positive and negative ways. UM. You know, 723 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: sadness and happiness are closer to the surface. UM. But 724 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: even when the sadness is close over the surface, UM, 725 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: it's it's often uh feels like a really powerful positive thing. UM. 726 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 1: And so those deep moments of extended contemplation UM really 727 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: just feel like to me like an opening up of 728 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: this emotional life that often is numbed UM when when 729 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: we're busy and not attending to it. What are your 730 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,240 Speaker 1: thoughts on the implementation of mindfulness in grade school. Yeah, 731 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: so there's a big movement to UM to implement especially 732 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 1: mindfulness in UM in in the K through twelve curriculum. UM. 733 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: And there is some good research indicating that it is helpful, 734 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: especially with emotion regulation UM social interactions for young children. UM. 735 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: And so I think that has a lot of potential UM. 736 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,399 Speaker 1: And then we are looking at the possibility of incorporating 737 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: UM some compassion for because practices in K through twelve, 738 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: and it's striking how quickly children pick up on it UM, 739 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: even faster often than adults do. UM. A lot of 740 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: the examples and exercises that come with cognitively based compassion training, 741 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: kids pick up on it right away. And so I 742 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: think it has a real powerful potential for helping kids 743 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: remain connected with one another UM, and remain connected not 744 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 1: with just with their close friends, but maybe with UM 745 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: others that they may have trouble with, others that they 746 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: may not see as one of them, all of a 747 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 1: sudden become you know, a shared human human, you know, 748 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 1: with the the shared childhood experience that they're going through UM. 749 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:45,320 Speaker 1: And so I think there is a lot of potential. 750 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,399 Speaker 1: Do you know if there are any cultures out there 751 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: that that introduced children to meditation at at at a 752 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: really young age. Monastic traditions are so rich and so 753 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: different from one another, but there are a lot of 754 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: monastic traditions where children UM go away quite young and 755 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: and begin a monastic lifestyle. I'm a little hesitant because 756 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: there are a lot of monastic traditions that UM, you know, 757 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: don't practice a lot of meditation. So there's a lot 758 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: of diversity in terms of what UM goes on in 759 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: different monastic traditions, but certainly UM, there are a lot 760 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: of traditions in which the training starts quite early. All right, Well, 761 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 1: once again I want to thank Dr ms Garrow for 762 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: setting down and chatting with me about her meditation research 763 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,239 Speaker 1: and just meditation research in general. I thought one thing 764 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 1: that was really interesting was the sort of the two 765 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,879 Speaker 1: factor empathy model she talked about. What are your thoughts 766 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: about that, Robert, Does that ring true to you in 767 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: in your life? Like the idea that there is a 768 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 1: cognitive component to empathy and then the affective mirroring component 769 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: of empathy. Yeah, Like I say, it really made me 770 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: tease apart my own experience with meditation, but also my 771 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: own experience with things like empathy, Like you know, just 772 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 1: how much of it, how much of all may how 773 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 1: much a column B? How is this coming together in 774 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,800 Speaker 1: my mind state? And how might it be coming together 775 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: differently or not at all in other mind states? You know, 776 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,920 Speaker 1: because because it's so easy to fall into the trap 777 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: to think that we all have essentially the same hardware 778 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: and software firing up every time we're engaging with the world. 779 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,400 Speaker 1: Do you ever think that if you are, if you 780 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: happen to be in euro atypical person, that like you 781 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 1: can catch yourself having failings of empathy and that's you're 782 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: sometimes failing in one column and sometimes failing in the 783 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: other column. Yeah. Yeah, I think so, because I guess 784 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: I'm paranoid enough that occasionally I'll I'll think back on 785 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: my day and I'll particularly I'll think about conversations and 786 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: I wonder who did was I? And was that? Did 787 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: I have enough empathy in that particular conversation? Did I? 788 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 1: Did I talk too much about my own stuff that? 789 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: Did I? Did I ask enough about someone else's stuff? Uh? 790 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,439 Speaker 1: You know you can drive yourself nuts with those questions. Yeah, 791 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,919 Speaker 1: I know what you mean. Um. Yeah. And so now 792 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: we have a whole other way to to dive into 793 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,839 Speaker 1: that paranoid self criticism exactly. All right, Well, I think 794 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 1: we should do a quick break and then when we 795 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: come back from that break, we can talk about your 796 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 1: conversation with Dr Jill Weener. So when working on the 797 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 1: meditation video, I also interview Jill Weener, physician specializing in 798 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,719 Speaker 1: Vedic meditation for wellness and stress management, and she is 799 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: also based here in Atlanta. She came in and she 800 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,120 Speaker 1: had a lot to share about the particular strategies of 801 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: vedic meditation, mindfulness, yoga, and the use of mantras. Uh. 802 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: But but probably most importantly for our discussion here, she 803 00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: had a lot to say about stress. So she is 804 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: is an instructor of what she calls vedic meditation, which 805 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: from what I could tell, is very similar to or 806 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: maybe the same thing as transcendental meditation. Yeah, it seems 807 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 1: to it seems to be very too closely related fields 808 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: of meditation, Like it involves using mantras to achieve this 809 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: state of trends. And yeah, I think that that that 810 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,799 Speaker 1: sums it up. So we're not gonna, you know, the 811 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,880 Speaker 1: entire interview here with with Jill, but I wanted to 812 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,600 Speaker 1: to just are a portion of it because it sets 813 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: sets us up for a nice discussion about one particular 814 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 1: quality of both veting meditation and the general science of stress. 815 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:25,279 Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's mandatory. I think that 816 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:31,920 Speaker 1: stress is probably the biggest epidemic we've ever faced. Um 817 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:37,240 Speaker 1: It underlies everything, and it underlies immune dysfunction, digestive digestive issues, 818 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: pain regulation, all these medical issues that we see as 819 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:47,719 Speaker 1: physicians and as as patients that we experience, and if 820 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: we don't have a meditation practice to help us regulate 821 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,359 Speaker 1: the way our bodies process stress, we it's like you're 822 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,280 Speaker 1: not you can't ever catch up to it. The stress 823 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: keeps accumulating and accumulating and making you sicker and soer. 824 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: So for me as a health care provider helping me 825 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 1: be able to care for people, that having the meditation 826 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,840 Speaker 1: is that personal practice for me was hugely important. But 827 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,800 Speaker 1: also as a human being who has stress and stress 828 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,640 Speaker 1: related symptoms and illness, um it also helps with that 829 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,319 Speaker 1: quite a bit. So Adaptation energy we like to think 830 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 1: of it like your bank account of patients, your ability 831 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: to adapt and what typically gives you adaptation energy is sleep, eating, well, exercise, 832 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,880 Speaker 1: anything you find to be restorative, like working on cars 833 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: or gardening or knitting or walking your dog. When life 834 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: throws you a little curveball, um, it takes away a 835 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,799 Speaker 1: little bit of adaptation energy. And if you have enough 836 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:56,719 Speaker 1: adaptation energy, you can handle anything that comes at you. 837 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 1: What happens is we only have a certain amount typically, 838 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,399 Speaker 1: and as it starts to run out, your patient runs 839 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,320 Speaker 1: a little thin, and you feel a little a little thready, 840 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 1: and then one little thing happens it doesn't seem like 841 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 1: that big a deal, and you lose it and you 842 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,360 Speaker 1: snap and have a full stress fight or flight reaction. 843 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: So Vata meditation and lots of other forms of meditation 844 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 1: give you rest as well. So one of the key 845 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:26,120 Speaker 1: ideas that the Jail mentions here and references a lot 846 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 1: is that of adaptation energy. This concept that you have 847 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: a personal depletable energy reserve for dealing with stress, a 848 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:39,120 Speaker 1: reserve that can be replenished as well as diminished. And 849 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,680 Speaker 1: you see it referenced in meditation, and I think it's 850 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,400 Speaker 1: easy to simply dismiss something like that is just a 851 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: meditation buzzword or something. But when I started looking into it, 852 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 1: like what what is adaptation energy? Does it? Does it 853 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 1: exist outside of the terminology of a particular school of meditation, 854 00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,880 Speaker 1: it really gets quite fascinating. So the term originates with 855 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:05,680 Speaker 1: Austrian indocrinologist Hans Celier, which I imagine a number of 856 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,160 Speaker 1: people may be familiar with that name because he is 857 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,960 Speaker 1: he is a huge name in the science of stress, 858 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: just the understanding of stress, the the cultural use of 859 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 1: the word stress today. He's sort of I mean, I 860 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: imagine that stress was just a concept that had always 861 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,960 Speaker 1: been around, but he pretty much introduced the modern medical 862 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 1: concept of stress. Right. Yeah, it's hard to it's hard 863 00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,440 Speaker 1: to imagine that right now, to to think back, you know, 864 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,200 Speaker 1: you think back on even ancient figures. You can imagine 865 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: Odysseus saying, oh man, this is such a stressful voyage home. 866 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,960 Speaker 1: I'm just so stressed out. I can't wait to get 867 00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,000 Speaker 1: get home and just relax. So they talked about like 868 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:49,080 Speaker 1: wearisomeness and anguish, but they didn't talk about stress. That's true. 869 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 1: So yeah. In in nineteen thirty five, he identified stress 870 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: as a syndrome occurring in laboratory rats. In night, he 871 00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: defined general adaptation drum, which is also known as is 872 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:07,040 Speaker 1: G a S or gas. I've seen some commentators say 873 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,239 Speaker 1: that this is, you know, rather unfortunate, that that that's 874 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,640 Speaker 1: what what one can refer to it as. But he 875 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:19,239 Speaker 1: signaled this out as a three stage biological response to stress. 876 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,120 Speaker 1: So the the three stages are as follows. First alarm, 877 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,080 Speaker 1: This occurs when you encounter stress. The also known as 878 00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:31,320 Speaker 1: the alarm reaction stage the a R stage, and includes 879 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,880 Speaker 1: the arousal of your fight or flight response to a stressor, 880 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,320 Speaker 1: and all of your internal alarms are activated and you 881 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,479 Speaker 1: prepare to face danger or runaway. And then he lays 882 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,400 Speaker 1: out the second stage, the resistant stage, the stage of 883 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:48,240 Speaker 1: resistance or SR. And in this UH the human response 884 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,920 Speaker 1: to dangers in full swing, So your pupils dialate, your 885 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,520 Speaker 1: heart rate and respiration go up, and your muscles contract. 886 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,000 Speaker 1: And then where you really get into the general adaptation 887 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,520 Speaker 1: syndrome here is a third stage of exhaustion. This is 888 00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,480 Speaker 1: when your body stays in an excited state for prolonged 889 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,400 Speaker 1: perioded inner of the final state of of the gas 890 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,000 Speaker 1: UH the state of exhaustion or SC and This this 891 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,680 Speaker 1: occurs when in response to a stressor that has gone 892 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,319 Speaker 1: on too long. In the state of hyper arousal, the 893 00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,320 Speaker 1: body's immune system begins to wear down and as a result, 894 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,160 Speaker 1: the person will become more susceptible to infections and other 895 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,800 Speaker 1: illnesses as the body's defenses have been spent on dealing 896 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,360 Speaker 1: with the stresser. So one interesting way I read to 897 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 1: think about stress is that you think about a disease 898 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,360 Speaker 1: or an injury or something like that causing symptoms. You know, 899 00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,040 Speaker 1: there there are symptoms that result from some type of 900 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:47,520 Speaker 1: damage to or pressure upon the body, but there are 901 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:52,160 Speaker 1: also these general symptoms that seem to happen basically no 902 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: matter what you're doing to the body, as long as 903 00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,719 Speaker 1: it's having some kind of cumulative negative effect. So like 904 00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,520 Speaker 1: whether it's some whether you're tired and deprived of sleep, 905 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,960 Speaker 1: or infected by a disease, or you have gotten a 906 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,880 Speaker 1: bodily injury, or you know, any number of things that 907 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,799 Speaker 1: could happen, do you they all seem to sort of 908 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:18,719 Speaker 1: lead to this similar cluster of symptoms, And so you 909 00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 1: could think one way to think about stress is the 910 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:26,000 Speaker 1: body's general response to negativity. Yeah, and I mean, and 911 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,520 Speaker 1: I guess the other side of it too. To consider 912 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,480 Speaker 1: with stress is that a lot of like the basic 913 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:36,400 Speaker 1: evolved biological adaptations, you know, we weren't we were we 914 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,320 Speaker 1: evolved to deal with tigers essentially, but not paper tigers 915 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 1: so much. And that's one of the problems with the 916 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,160 Speaker 1: modern world, right, is that we we we get so 917 00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:49,440 Speaker 1: stressed out over things that are not actual mediate threats, 918 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,400 Speaker 1: but they never go away. Yeah, they never go away. 919 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,600 Speaker 1: They're constantly coming at you. Uh. So you can definitely 920 00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,960 Speaker 1: see the modern application of this, this idea, the general 921 00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,799 Speaker 1: adaptation syndrome, and the idea that you would have only 922 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:08,320 Speaker 1: so much like bodily and mentally mental energy to deal 923 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:12,120 Speaker 1: with a barrage of stressors. Yeah, and Celia, he did 924 00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,520 Speaker 1: sort of have an idea that there were this was 925 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:18,279 Speaker 1: a modern problem in a way, right. Yeah, Like so 926 00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,680 Speaker 1: you could imagine maybe our ancestors living living on a 927 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 1: savannah somewhere would have a fight or flight response if, like, 928 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,400 Speaker 1: you know, a large leopard comes near them or something. 929 00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,239 Speaker 1: You know, you that's like an immediate stress point that 930 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,839 Speaker 1: you've got to deal with. But what if it's like 931 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,719 Speaker 1: you have put yourself into a state of being where 932 00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:43,080 Speaker 1: you're almost never facing actual acute danger, but your entire life, 933 00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 1: there's a leopard over there on the horizon and it 934 00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,759 Speaker 1: never gets too close to you, but it also never 935 00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:54,040 Speaker 1: goes away. Yeah, it's always potentially in your email folder. 936 00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,520 Speaker 1: It's always potentially in your mailbox or on your doorstep. 937 00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,279 Speaker 1: I mean it's yeah, it's uh, this is this is 938 00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,759 Speaker 1: the paper tiger that we've we've grown accustomed to, or 939 00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,520 Speaker 1: haven't grown accustomed to if you rather so. One of 940 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,560 Speaker 1: the interesting things about Celia's work is is that the 941 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:12,800 Speaker 1: modern use of the word stress stems from his work UH, 942 00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,919 Speaker 1: and interestingly enough, his findings that were rejected by physiologists 943 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:21,520 Speaker 1: until the nineteen seventies. As Russell Winer put put it 944 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,880 Speaker 1: in his h his paper Putting Stress in Life hand 945 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,160 Speaker 1: Celier in the making of Stress Theory UH, Celia used 946 00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,960 Speaker 1: stress to describe an organism's adaptation response to the environment 947 00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:36,520 Speaker 1: quote that is, the state manifested by the gas. In 948 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,640 Speaker 1: this reconceptualization of stress, Celier believed himself to have discovered 949 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:45,400 Speaker 1: a universal truth regarding the relationships of organisms with their environment. 950 00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:48,520 Speaker 1: And he also pointed out that Celier had some pretty 951 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:54,319 Speaker 1: lofty ideas about his stress theory UH, that civilization was 952 00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:59,840 Speaker 1: disordered on two vital levels. The quote diseases of civilization, 953 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,239 Speaker 1: such as cardiovascular diseases. These were caused by poor adaptation 954 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:08,719 Speaker 1: to modern industrial life. And on another level, entirely he 955 00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,760 Speaker 1: saw that Western civilization bore the cracks of intense social instability, 956 00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:16,640 Speaker 1: and stress theory, he argued, could save us from both 957 00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 1: of these. So he was he was not shy about 958 00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:26,000 Speaker 1: championing stress theory. According to Viner, the US military were 959 00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,880 Speaker 1: among the first to really embrace his ideas on stress 960 00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,319 Speaker 1: and operational efficiency in the post war period, and they 961 00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,279 Speaker 1: somehow doesn't surprise me. Yeah, they jumped right in there. 962 00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:37,560 Speaker 1: It fall does fall in line with a lot of 963 00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:42,760 Speaker 1: the recent topics we've covered, uh, related to Cold War research, 964 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,799 Speaker 1: Like mid century military research went into a lot of 965 00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,240 Speaker 1: fringe territory, though I guess this is one that eventually 966 00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: became mainstream science. Yeah, because on one hand, there's you 967 00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,960 Speaker 1: want to know how your troops are going to behave 968 00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,960 Speaker 1: in a stressful situation, but they also considered stress a 969 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:02,200 Speaker 1: useful weapon in potential psychological warfare based on his work 970 00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:06,000 Speaker 1: and the work of others. Uh. In fact, Viner says, quote, 971 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,279 Speaker 1: the military's fascination with stress became such that by nine 972 00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:13,279 Speaker 1: seventy six, over one third of prominent researchers in the 973 00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:17,840 Speaker 1: stress area were based in US military institutions. So it's 974 00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,880 Speaker 1: it's no surprise then. I suppose that one of the 975 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,920 Speaker 1: papers that I found on adaptation energy came from a 976 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:27,720 Speaker 1: two thousand nine issue of the FBI Law Enforcement bulletin 977 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:34,560 Speaker 1: title Alarmingly enough, on the Edge colon Uh, integrating spirituality 978 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,400 Speaker 1: into law enforcement. Did you read it? I mean, what 979 00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:40,640 Speaker 1: kind of a read is this? Um? It was an 980 00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,760 Speaker 1: interesting read. I just basically just made me just kept 981 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,200 Speaker 1: coming back and saying, wait, is this the real FBI Bulton? 982 00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,600 Speaker 1: Is this something else? Does FBI stand for something other 983 00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:53,760 Speaker 1: than the Federal Bureau of Investigation, because it's certainly it's 984 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:58,040 Speaker 1: certainly interesting to see this article in an FBI publication 985 00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:03,200 Speaker 1: after watching um My Hunters, which of course displays a 986 00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,360 Speaker 1: sort of the old school FBI the Netflix series Mind. Yes, 987 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:11,400 Speaker 1: the old school FBI of the sixties and seventies, like 988 00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:15,640 Speaker 1: entering into a new um a new age that is 989 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:20,600 Speaker 1: open to psychological science. And you can find that arcase 990 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:21,960 Speaker 1: everyone wants to read it for them stuff. You can 991 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,960 Speaker 1: find that online. It's by in Knees Tuck. But the 992 00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:31,200 Speaker 1: concept of of of adaptation, energy and stress. Uh. This 993 00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,200 Speaker 1: was also embraced by transcendental meditation. To bring us back 994 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,400 Speaker 1: to meditation, and Celier himself became interested in the use 995 00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,080 Speaker 1: of transcendental meditation as a stress management method after meeting 996 00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,800 Speaker 1: with the Maharishi mahash Yogi, the founder of the transcendental 997 00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,600 Speaker 1: meditation movement in the nineties seventies, something that he discussed 998 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:55,400 Speaker 1: in later interviews. Interesting. Now, adaptation energy itself remains hypothetical, 999 00:58:55,560 --> 00:59:00,640 Speaker 1: but many scientific studies surrounding meditation uh relate to the 1000 00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:04,720 Speaker 1: physiological effects of stress. Yeah. I was thinking when listening 1001 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:09,600 Speaker 1: to uh Dr Weener's interview that even if the adaptation 1002 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:14,440 Speaker 1: energy theory is not um but if it's not literally 1003 00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,240 Speaker 1: correct in that you have some kind of fixed number 1004 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,560 Speaker 1: of reserves that are depleted, I think it could be 1005 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,600 Speaker 1: could be very easily an analogy for something that is 1006 00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,040 Speaker 1: very true of the body, which is that there is 1007 00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,640 Speaker 1: such a thing as cumulative stress. You might not have 1008 00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,480 Speaker 1: a number that could be measured and that can be 1009 00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,360 Speaker 1: built up and stuff like that, but there are cumulative 1010 00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,880 Speaker 1: effects of stress, and it can behave sort of analogously 1011 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,280 Speaker 1: to what she describes. Yeah, I mean, you can think 1012 00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,200 Speaker 1: of it just like, how many times would you need 1013 00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,600 Speaker 1: to be, say, reminded of something stressful in your life? 1014 00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:48,280 Speaker 1: How many times would you or you would you need 1015 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:50,960 Speaker 1: to have someone jump out at you and scare you 1016 00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,000 Speaker 1: before it would begin to wear you down, you know, 1017 00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,960 Speaker 1: just in the course of a day. And therefore it 1018 00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,000 Speaker 1: might be useful to find a room where nobody jumped 1019 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,640 Speaker 1: stout at you, or nobody shouts something stressful at you, 1020 01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,120 Speaker 1: And of course for the most part, we don't. We 1021 01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,720 Speaker 1: don't even have to rely on someone else to jump 1022 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:11,800 Speaker 1: out or someone else to yell something stressful, because we 1023 01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:15,160 Speaker 1: have the this wonderful dialogue that's going on in our 1024 01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,440 Speaker 1: minds most of the time, the email leopard and the 1025 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:20,720 Speaker 1: email leopard as well. But yeah, we have the default 1026 01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,440 Speaker 1: mode network in our mind, constantly fretting over past in future. 1027 01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,520 Speaker 1: It's it's shutting off that voice. It's finding a room 1028 01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,560 Speaker 1: where that voice cannot reaches, that that has value. And 1029 01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:34,160 Speaker 1: that's where meditation comes in. Yeah, and I can certainly 1030 01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:38,600 Speaker 1: believe also that meditative practices could increase one's resistance to 1031 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,920 Speaker 1: uh to to these stressors as they come at you, 1032 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,840 Speaker 1: even after you've stopped practicing it for the moment. Indeed. 1033 01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,600 Speaker 1: Now for this episode, thanks as always to Alexander Williams 1034 01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:49,680 Speaker 1: for running the boards on this one, and thanks to 1035 01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:53,000 Speaker 1: Tyler Clang and Tari Harrison, who also came up with 1036 01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,160 Speaker 1: a couple of the questions that we used in the 1037 01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,920 Speaker 1: interview with Mascarrow. Thanks of course to Dr Jennifer Mascarrow 1038 01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:01,840 Speaker 1: for talking with us and to Dr Jill Weener. And 1039 01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:03,520 Speaker 1: by the way, if you want to check out Dr 1040 01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,240 Speaker 1: Joel Weiner's work, you can head on over to Jill 1041 01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:09,120 Speaker 1: Weener dot com. That's w E N E R. And 1042 01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:10,880 Speaker 1: if you want to check out our work here's Stuff 1043 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:12,720 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, head on over to stuff to 1044 01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,480 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. That's where we'll find all 1045 01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,000 Speaker 1: the episodes, as well as links out to our various 1046 01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:20,120 Speaker 1: social media accounts. And if you want to get in 1047 01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,840 Speaker 1: touch with us directly, as always, you can email us 1048 01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:35,640 Speaker 1: at blow them Minto's how stuff Works dot com for 1049 01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,120 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Does it 1050 01:01:38,200 --> 01:02:00,960 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com by No Mo