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Speaker 1: Cool media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to it could happen here a show, But thanks.

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Speaker 3: Falling apart, I'm Garrison Davis today, I'm joined by James Stout.

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Speaker 4: Hello, Hi, Gay, I'm excited to see what's falling UPOT today.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's our elections, which have, as we all know,

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Speaker 3: have been raged for as long as I can remember,

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Speaker 3: which is kind of true considering when I was born

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Speaker 3: circa the year two thousand oh.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the famous, the great and democratic collection of to

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Speaker 4: have in the United States.

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Speaker 3: The flawless election of two Yeah. But no, we are

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Speaker 3: going to be talking about Trump's continuing claims that the

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty election was rigged and his investigation of election

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Speaker 3: fraud in not just the twenty twenty election but also

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Speaker 3: the twenty twenty four election, which if you recall, was

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Speaker 3: not rigged against Trump, considering Trump won that election including

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Speaker 3: the popular vote.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he won every way you could slice that up.

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Speaker 5: A sweeping victory.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a fatle for the Democrats.

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Speaker 3: But a lot of the investigations into election fraud actually

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Speaker 3: do revolve around the twenty twenty four voter roles, which

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Speaker 3: we will discuss in a bit, But first let's go

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Speaker 3: back a few weeks on Executive Disorder. I reported that

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Speaker 3: Cash Brittel went on too Fox News a few weeks

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Speaker 3: ago and announced that the FBI would soon be making

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Speaker 3: arrests related to Trump's claims that the twenty twenty election

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Speaker 3: was stolen, with Patel saying, as a conspiracy end quote,

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Speaker 3: they tried to thwart our elections and rig the entire system.

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Speaker 5: We got all the evidence, we've.

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Speaker 6: Got all the effortens I can announce on your show

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Speaker 6: that we've got all the information we need. We're working

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Speaker 6: with our prosecutors, the Department of Justice and the Attorney

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Speaker 6: General Todd Blanche and we are going to be making

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Speaker 6: arrest and it's coming, and I promise you it's coming soon.

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Speaker 3: Patel also claimed on Fox News, quote, we have the

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Speaker 3: information to back President Trump's claims. About a week and

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Speaker 3: a half later, the DOJ announced quote multiple aliens charged

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Speaker 3: with illegally voting in federal elections.

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Speaker 5: It's multiple, James, multiple.

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Speaker 4: Well, okay, yes, we're looking at three.

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Speaker 5: No, no more than three, more than three.

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Speaker 7: Four.

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Speaker 4: It was fun, fun for me, Okay, just for people

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Speaker 4: who aren't familiar with the skired of the United States,

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Speaker 4: it's that's not a statistically significant number. When it comes

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Speaker 4: to electoral outcomes, generally, they are decided by several multiples

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Speaker 4: of four.

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Speaker 3: Usually, Yeah, Patel commented, quote Securing our elections from criminal

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Speaker 3: actors here at home and around the world is one

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Speaker 3: of the top priorities for this FBI. Non citizens voting

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Speaker 3: is a federal crime, period, and while other administrations may

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Speaker 3: have looked the other way in the past, those days

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Speaker 3: are over. We will continue to work around the clock

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Speaker 3: with our interagency partners to ensure those who engage in

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Speaker 3: such conduct will not get away with it. So these

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Speaker 3: arrests took place in New Jersey, and these quote unquote

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Speaker 3: multiple aliens were four permanent residents who registered to vote

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Speaker 3: and cast ballots in at least one federal election before

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Speaker 3: applying for naturalization via the N four hundred.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now, the N four hundred form has a section where

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Speaker 3: it asks if the applicant has ever registered to vote

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Speaker 3: or has voted in a federal, state, or local election.

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Speaker 3: Three of the peace people charged in New Jersey checked

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Speaker 3: no in the box asking if they had voted. The

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Speaker 3: other left the box blank, but when later questioned by

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Speaker 3: an Immigration Services officer at the us CIS interview, this

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Speaker 3: applicant answered no that they did not or have not voted.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now, interestingly, only two out of the four are actually

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Speaker 3: charged with quote, voting by an alien in a federal election, okay,

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Speaker 3: three are charged with false statements in relation to naturalization, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and two are charged with procurement of citizenship or naturalization unlawfully.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, because I'm guessing the goal here would be

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Speaker 4: to denaturalize them, right for.

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Speaker 3: The people that were naturalized that that looks like that

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Speaker 3: will that will be part of what they do going forward.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I know I've reported on this in NED before,

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Speaker 4: but like large parts of USCIS have denaturalization targets right

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Speaker 4: in the same way that we've seen deportation targets for

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Speaker 4: ICE and CBPS. So like that will be the reason

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Speaker 4: that though the specific charges. Right, that is the easiest

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Speaker 4: way to denaturalize someone. I was going to say the

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Speaker 4: only way, but I think there are technically other ways.

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Speaker 4: But like the bulk of times you're going to see

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Speaker 4: someone denaturalized, it's because they concealed previously, it had been

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Speaker 4: that they had concealed like some loyalty to like like

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Speaker 4: a terrorist group, right, or perhaps there are bars for

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Speaker 4: like communists and Nazis, like like with capital letters. I'm

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Speaker 4: not talking about the political affiliation. I'm talking about like

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Speaker 4: being a member of a party with a party card there,

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Speaker 4: and I'm not talking about it the view necessarily.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a whole other like tangent, there's there's back

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Speaker 3: and forth rules. If you can really denaturalize someone for

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Speaker 3: being a member of a communist party, still depends what

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Speaker 3: they mean by communist party.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's kind of like a vague term.

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Speaker 3: But the false statements in relation to naturalization, as in

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Speaker 3: allegedly lying on the form by checking a box that

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Speaker 3: conflicts with what the federal government is alleging, is a

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Speaker 3: much more clear route to denaturalization. One of the people

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Speaker 3: charged is a green card holder from Liberia who immigrated

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Speaker 3: as a refugee in nineteen ninety eight, named David Newilli.

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Speaker 3: He's currently seventy three years old. He allegedly registered to

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Speaker 3: vote in New Jersey in two thousand and three and

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Speaker 3: attested he was a US citizen. The complaint claims Nuelly

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Speaker 3: voted by mail in the twenty twenty general election and

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Speaker 3: submitted a provisional ballot in person on November fifth, twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty four, for that general election next May. It's May

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. Nuelly submitted a N four hundred claiming

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Speaker 3: he had never voted in the US, but admitted to

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Speaker 3: voting twice in the naturalization interview. Okay, he is charged

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Speaker 3: with voting by an alien in a federal election and

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Speaker 3: false statements. Yeah, those are the charges he's facing.

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Speaker 4: That's interesting because he seems to clarified in the interview,

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Speaker 4: right correct. I don't quite know how that works, but like.

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Speaker 3: He did admit in the interview that he that he

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Speaker 3: did vote, but they're still charging him with false statements

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Speaker 3: based on the N four hundred.

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Speaker 4: And it will be interesting to follow because it could

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Speaker 4: be pretty hard to stick the landing on that given

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Speaker 4: that he I mean, I guess technically what you put

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Speaker 4: on the form is there's no take backs, I guess,

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Speaker 4: But him using the interviewor to clarify it certainly seems

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Speaker 4: like he's trying to do what's in the spirit of

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Speaker 4: the things asking him to do. Yeah, there will be

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Speaker 4: an interesting one to follow.

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Speaker 3: This was also interesting because it shows the investigative capacity

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Speaker 3: of the FBI. This guy admitted to that, Like, he

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Speaker 3: admitted to this in the USCIS interview.

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Speaker 5: The FBI did not like crack the case.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like there, yeah, yeah, definitely, Yeah, he told

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Speaker 4: he told the cops that he did it.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: When was his USCIS interview.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure when the interview was. He submitted the

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Speaker 3: N four hundred in May twenty twenty five, okay, so

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Speaker 3: Trump two, it would have been in late twenty twenty five. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: this was at least with an last year.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. Some of those N four

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Speaker 4: hundred is thing forever now totally. It's kind of interesting.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I'm just wondering to what extent previously, I

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Speaker 4: don't actually know, to an extent previously USCAS would like

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Speaker 4: refer people for prosecution.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that is that is a good question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, now here here is August

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. Okay, was when he was interviewed, according

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Speaker 3: to the criminal complaint, relatively first turnaround.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I wonder if that's just a part of the

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Speaker 4: country he's in or whether that was because like they

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Speaker 4: wanted to get in the office, right. And then I

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Speaker 4: had to clarify or detain him because he had voted.

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Speaker 3: And then in October, USCIS denied the application due to

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Speaker 3: a lawful acts of voting in the twenty twenty and

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four elections and the false statement on the

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Speaker 3: end of four hundred. Yeah, we will take an ad

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Speaker 3: break here and then talk about the three other cases

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Speaker 3: after these messages.

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Speaker 4: All right, we are back.

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Speaker 3: Iden Koresh, forty three years old, is a Green Card

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Speaker 3: holder who immigrated from Israel on a B two visa

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Speaker 3: in twenty fifteen. In twenty twenty one, Koresh allegedly registered

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Speaker 3: to vote in New Jersey, asserting he was a US citizen,

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Speaker 3: and voted in person in the twenty twenty two midterm election.

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Speaker 3: Koresh later submitted an N four hundred and twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: five based on his charges, I believe his citizenship was

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Speaker 3: granted because he's charged with voting by an alien in

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Speaker 3: a federal election and procurement of citizenship or naturalization unlawfully.

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Speaker 3: A lot of these criminal complaints are quite short, around

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Speaker 3: seven pages, okay. Jasynthic Zoom is a seventy.

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Speaker 4: Year old Green card holder who.

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Speaker 3: Has lived in the US since two thousand after immigrating

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Speaker 3: from Jamaica. She allegedly registered to vote in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 3: and voted by mail in the twenty twenty general election.

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Speaker 3: She submitted an N four hundred and twenty twenty one

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Speaker 3: and was granted citizenship based on what the DOJ is

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Speaker 3: calling false statements. She's charged with two counts of false

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Speaker 3: statements in relation to naturalization.

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Speaker 4: Two counts would be I guess, registering to vote and voting.

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Speaker 3: She's oddly one of the ones who's not actually charged

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Speaker 3: with voting in a federal election. She's just charged with

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Speaker 3: two false statements. This is I think one in the

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Speaker 3: interview and the other on the end.

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Speaker 4: Four hundred Oh okay, yeah, that can make sense to Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's interesting they didn't charge Maybe, like I guess they're

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Speaker 4: like eyes on the prize, trying to denaturalize someone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, but like a big part of the

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Speaker 3: FBI's messaging in this is, you know, we found people

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Speaker 3: who illegally voted, but half of the people here aren't

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Speaker 3: actually charged with that, and I don't quite know why.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it's theoretically possible to charge could be added later,

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Speaker 3: but at least in the original criminal complaints issued when

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Speaker 3: DJ made the announcement, Egzoom is not actually charged with voting,

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Speaker 3: even though even though the criminal complaint says that she did,

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Speaker 3: but it's not one.

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Speaker 4: Of the charges. Yeah, the normal pattern with federal charges

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Speaker 4: is to have a lot of charges, and like most

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Speaker 4: of these federal cases will end in plea bargains, right

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Speaker 4: because the exposure is so high. So yeah, it's interesting

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Speaker 4: that that's not there when normally the patents to put

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Speaker 4: as much as you can in front of the person

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Speaker 4: so that you end up with a plea vargain.

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Speaker 3: This last guy is also not charged with illegally voting

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Speaker 3: in a federal election. Being a done Vig is a

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Speaker 3: thirty three year old Green card holder who immigrated from

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Speaker 3: India in twenty twelve. He's alleged to a registered to

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Speaker 3: vote in twenty sixteen and subsequently voted in person for

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Speaker 3: the twenty sixteen general election, and then by mail in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty. Vig later submitted an end four hundred and

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, but he only faces one charge, procurement

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Speaker 3: of citizenship or naturalization unlawfully.

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Speaker 4: So again, a lot of these charges.

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Speaker 3: Even even though the criminal complaints allege a lot of

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Speaker 3: the same stuff, the actual charges vary greatly, and it's

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Speaker 3: it is unclear why exactly that is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think different. They're all in New Jersey, all

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Speaker 4: New Jersey, say same years, say it tourney, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's it's interesting. It'll be interesting to follow those cases

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Speaker 4: as well. Like I know, like I said that they

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Speaker 4: have some sort of denaturalization targets, so whether they're just

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Speaker 4: focusing their energies on that. It could be a case.

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Speaker 4: So it could be something to do with the specifics

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Speaker 4: of that crime that I just don't know about. Voting

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Speaker 4: will not as citizen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there could be some prosecutorial reason that they aren't

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Speaker 3: pursuing it in certain cases but are in others.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And they're all alleged to voting in federal elections, right,

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Speaker 4: that's yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: In at least one federal election, either presidential, general, election

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Speaker 3: or midterm general election.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And New Jersey does not have like local election voting

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Speaker 3: for non citizens.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: A few days before Patel announced the arrests on Fox News,

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Speaker 3: the Department of Justice sent a letter to the chief

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Speaker 3: election official for Wayne County, Michigan, demanding Wayne County hand

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Speaker 3: over all ballots from the twenty twenty four election. The

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Speaker 3: letter said that DOJ and its Civil Rights Division is

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Speaker 3: authorized to investigate and prosecute individuals who may have registered

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Speaker 3: to vote or voted in violation of US law. The

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Speaker 3: letter included three instances of recorded allegations and convictions in

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Speaker 3: Wayne County in quote unquote recent years related to voting fraud.

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Speaker 3: This pushed by the DOJ to get their hands on

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Speaker 3: ballots or voter rolls is part of a much larger pattern.

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Speaker 3: In January, during Operation Metro Surge in Minneapolis, one of

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Speaker 3: the demands from now former Attorney General Pambondi during negotiations

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Speaker 3: with Governor Tim Walls was for the DOJ to be

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Speaker 3: granted access to the state of Minnesota's voter roles quote

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Speaker 3: to confirm that Minnesota's voter registration practices comply with federal

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Speaker 3: law unquote. Trump's DOJ has actually sued over thirty states

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Speaker 3: for not complying with requests to gain access to their

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Speaker 3: voter rules. Cases against Arizona, Massachusetts, Rhode Island have been dismissed,

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Speaker 3: as have cases in California, Michigan, and Oregon, but the

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Speaker 3: DOJ is appealing those rulings. At least fifteen states have

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Speaker 3: complied or said they will comply with requests by handing

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Speaker 3: over voter registration lists, including driver's license and social security numbers.

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Speaker 3: These are largely red states Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Florida, Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Ohio, Oklahoma,

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Speaker 3: South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Wyoming. In a

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Speaker 3: March hearing in the case against Rhode Island to gain

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Speaker 3: access to their voter rules, Eric Neff, the acting chief

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Speaker 3: of the Voting Section of the Civil Rights Division of

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Speaker 3: the DOJ, said that after receiving the voter rules quote,

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Speaker 3: our intention is to run this against DHS's SAVE database unquote.

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Speaker 3: That's the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlement database here eause.

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Speaker 3: If don want to briefly explain what this database is

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Speaker 3: and how it's used.

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Speaker 4: In very basic terms, it is a database, so you

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Speaker 4: have like everified. Right, will be an example of a

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Speaker 4: DHS database that employers can use to check if somebody

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Speaker 4: is able to accept employment legally in the United States.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 4: Save is there for government agencies, not individuals, and they

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Speaker 4: should be able to determine whether or not somebody is

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Speaker 4: eligible for certain benefits.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: There are things called public charge rules. If people want

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Speaker 4: a more in depth explanation of public charge rules, you

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Speaker 4: can scroll all the way back to November twenty twenty

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Speaker 4: four when I made a podcast about these things. We

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Speaker 4: looked at a number of tools that the Trump administration

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Speaker 4: might use to try and deportantly naturalize people in a

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Speaker 4: podcast episode back then. The problem with these databases is

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Speaker 4: they're not very good. The most obvious and amusing examples

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Speaker 4: of Verify not being very good when state agencies hire

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Speaker 4: cops who DHS claims are not legally able to work

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Speaker 4: in the United States and then the state agencies point

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Speaker 4: out that they used Everify, which is DHS's own tool

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Speaker 4: for verifying, and then everyone gets quiet and wonders like,

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Speaker 4: who screwed up here?

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Speaker 9: Right?

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Speaker 4: Because they have done their obligation right, large employers have

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Speaker 4: to use everify the same is true, I imagine for

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Speaker 4: SAVE right in that it is not a database which

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Speaker 4: is perfect, and so running one against the other. Also

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Speaker 4: that the phrase running here is doing a lot of work, right,

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Speaker 4: Like are they going to look for name matches? Are

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Speaker 4: they going to look for Social Security number or driver's

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Speaker 4: licensed matches? Certain non citizens will have what's called an

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Speaker 4: iti N on SSN. There are a lot of ways

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Speaker 4: which this could go horribly wrong. There's a reason that

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Speaker 4: these two databases are not normally combined. Not to mention

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Speaker 4: the fact that this provides a really large disincentive for

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Speaker 4: people a signing up for benefits, right, which we've already

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Speaker 4: seen just the rhetoric from the Trump administration in the

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Speaker 4: campaign provided a disincentive for people accessing benefits, but also

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Speaker 4: for people registering to vote, right Like, Yeah, people who

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Speaker 4: are of diaspora communities, whether or not they are citizens,

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Speaker 4: will be concerned about this. And that is not a

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Speaker 4: that it's not an unconscious side effect. I'm sure, right,

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Speaker 4: that is something that they are extremely aware of as

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Speaker 4: they go forward doing this.

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Speaker 3: The Court raised concerns about SAVE and said that there

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Speaker 3: has been reporting of people being falsely identified as non

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Speaker 3: citizens in SAVES database. But Eric Neff responded that according

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Speaker 3: to the DHS, the accuracy rate of the SAVE database

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Speaker 3: is one hundred percent.

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Speaker 4: So I'm sure that's fine. That's just no database of

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Speaker 4: the skills it.

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Speaker 3: No, that's just mathematically impossible, Like it's yeah, ninety nine

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Speaker 3: percent and one percent are like vastly, vastly different.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's worth noting that, like in Trump's one

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Speaker 4: of his early executive orders, like like Spring of twenty five,

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Speaker 4: the one about preserving the integrity of American elections, part

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Speaker 4: of what he asks them to do there was to

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Speaker 4: overhaul SAVE and make it like a a single source

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Speaker 4: citizenship verification yeah database, which it is not, and it

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Speaker 4: is still not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's there's there that is that push from

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Speaker 3: the executive order a few months ago to create like

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Speaker 3: state citizenship lists.

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Speaker 9: M h.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. They've tried to go a number of ways about this, right.

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Speaker 4: They also the fall of last year, the integrated SAVE

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Speaker 4: with the with the passport database. I think most people

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Speaker 4: will be aware that there are millions of American citizens

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Speaker 4: who don't have passports for instance, right. Yeah, they've added

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Speaker 4: some other stuff, right, but the idea here is to

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Speaker 4: create like and it should worry everyone, right, Like, this

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Speaker 4: is a citizenship database that they will then attempt to

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Speaker 4: combine with their biometric databases. I'm sure, and we've seen

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Speaker 4: this with like the the name of the android app

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Speaker 4: is eluding me. Now there's an android app that ICE

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Speaker 4: officers have which is supposed to verify someone's status based

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Speaker 4: on a facial recognition scan. We know it doesn't work

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Speaker 4: because there was one, for example, one lady who was

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Speaker 4: scanned twice. Each result returned it different. Yeah, neither of

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Speaker 4: which was her. This stuff is extremely dangerous for anyone, right,

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Speaker 4: Like you'd be a citizen or a non cenizen. The

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Speaker 4: idea that they're going to check you against like the

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Speaker 4: list of legit Americans should really worry people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and unable to pass the Save Act in Congress.

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Speaker 3: Not to be confused for the same database, though they

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Speaker 3: are slightly related. Yeah, but unable to pass that in Congress.

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Speaker 3: The Trump signed executive order last March attempting to force

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Speaker 3: the Postal Service to not deliver mail in ballots if

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Speaker 3: the voter on the ballot does not appear on this

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Speaker 3: newly created list of pre approved voters using this state

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Speaker 3: citizenship list. Yeah, we'll see if that actually goes through,

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Speaker 3: but that it's another example of them, you know, trying

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Speaker 3: to trying to use state citizenship lists to just crack

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Speaker 3: down on the number of people that are able to vote.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we can all imagine that this will have different

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Speaker 4: impacts across different demographics, right, and that is very much

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Speaker 4: not accidental.

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Speaker 3: And the last thing for the voter roles in Fulton County, Georgia,

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Speaker 3: and Maricopa County, Arizona, the federal government has simply seized

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Speaker 3: voting records. In Arizona, the FBI successfully subpoena twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: election records from Maracopa County, and in Georgia, the FBI

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Speaker 3: rated election warehouse in January after dubiously obtaining a search warrant.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Then on May sixth, a federal judge ruled that the

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Speaker 3: federal government can keep the twenty twenty election materials that

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Speaker 3: were seized in that raid, even if quote, the seizure

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Speaker 3: in this case was certainly not perfect.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Maricopa County's an interesting one, right, Like, but I think

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Speaker 4: it's part of a grand jury investigation. Yes, yeah, I

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Speaker 4: can remember at the time, and there's a twenty twenty election,

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Speaker 4: like Maricopa County's results being somehow contentious, the State Center

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Speaker 4: did their own investigation into that, like several entities have.

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Speaker 3: Right, the details of that investigation is in part what

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Speaker 3: was the target of the grand jury subpoena.

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Speaker 4: Okay, not so much Maracopa County, but a number of

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Speaker 4: Arizona counties were really important in the results of the

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty election. Right, there was a massive effort for turnout.

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Speaker 4: I personally know people in indigenous communities who literally traveled

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Speaker 4: for the entire day to vote. The indigenous turnout, especially

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Speaker 4: Indigenous women in Arizona, really did make a big difference

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Speaker 4: in the twenty twenty election.

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Speaker 3: And Americopa County is the like by population, the biggest county.

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Speaker 4: Americopa County is fast. A number of other like Arizona counties,

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Speaker 4: like outside Americopa, were also really pivotal in twenty twenty elections.

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Speaker 4: It's not surprising to see those ones being tied, Like

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Speaker 4: it wasn't surprising to me the time to see them

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Speaker 4: being targeted. You know, Yeah, americop is where Phoenix is

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Speaker 4: just for people to put it on the map, famous

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Speaker 4: for having really great law enforcement over the years, Joe

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Speaker 4: Opio was America do you share if.

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Speaker 5: You Oh, yes, ah, last from the past.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, not so often. Isn't he like doing some

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Speaker 4: running for office or something? I thought he.

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Speaker 3: Was was he was for a bit. I have not

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Speaker 3: thought of Joe Opio for a few years though.

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Speaker 4: What a life to lead. Yeah, it's been a while.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Joe Opio born innineteen thirty two.

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Speaker 2: That's that's wild.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he can't be even for the United States even cheritocracy.

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Speaker 7: A little, Yeah, but no.

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Speaker 3: Trump does continue to truth claims about Fulton County on

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Speaker 3: his On his account of a few nights ago, he

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Speaker 3: put out a video of the election board. The video

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Speaker 3: was edited to appear as if it was implying that

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Speaker 3: there was voter fraud or that the elections were conducted improperly,

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Speaker 3: and when that was not what the video is actually

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Speaker 3: actually showing. But he has his truth a lot after

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Speaker 3: the raid. That to watch out for the results of

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Speaker 3: the of the Fulton County election raid and now federal

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Speaker 3: judges letting the fence keep the materials that they seized,

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Speaker 3: even if it was in the judge's own words, certainly

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Speaker 3: not perfect.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think Fulton County plays a load bearing role in

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Speaker 4: the in maga understanding of the twenty twenty election, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and Trump, So that is where he got the

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Speaker 3: mugshot taken right like this is like he is, Oh,

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Speaker 3: I've forgotten about that personal vendetta against Fulton County.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, yeah, that totally makes sense. Up Pier by

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Speaker 4: the way, did run for mayor of Fountain Hills in

441
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 4: twenty twenty four. Oh my god, yeah, just eight years

442
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 4: before it's underdth birthday. What a country. Oh, it's incredible

443
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 4: he did. He received whopping one five and twenty seven

444
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 4: votes in the primary election. It's a thousand people who

445
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 4: thought the best hope we have is someone who is

446
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 4: approaching Sheriff Joe at nearly a century of age.

447
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 5: Remarkable well with age, cubs wisdom.

448
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, up to a point.

449
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 5: That doesn't for us today at a good half of

450
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 5: the year.

451
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 3: We will keep a lookout for any more any more

452
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 3: arrests by Patel, who claims to have all the evidence

453
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 3: he needs, even though he only arrests so far is

454
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 3: just a fill people from New Jersey and then I

455
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: think one other person from Pennsylvania. Yeah, it was arrested

456
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 3: like in March. Again because the actual number of voter

457
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 3: fraun this country. Is it's minimal, according to according to

458
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 3: all investigations we've seen so far, very low.

459
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 4: It's statistically insignificant.

460
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: Yes, very low, to the point where it's statistically insignificant.

461
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 3: I think if you're going to be conserned of an

462
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 3: election rigging looking at the way that partisan jerrymandering has

463
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 3: been completely completely allowed to go through and gerrymandering over

464
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 3: districts that were protected by the voting right, Zach.

465
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 4: Look at what that is. Polling places are. Look at

466
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 4: the like the electoral college exists to be in between

467
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 4: the popular vote and the result of the of the election. Right,

468
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 4: there are there are many things which distort the will

469
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 4: of the people. Non citizens voting is not statistically significant

470
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 4: in that, like, it's just not. But this will have

471
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 4: a real electoral outcome, or is I guess because it

472
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 4: will dissuade people from voting. It will dissuade people who

473
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 4: have become US citizens from voting. It will dissuade people

474
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 4: who were born as US citizens.

475
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 3: And they could be pursuing charges against election officials in

476
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 3: some of these states, and like that is part of

477
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: trying to seize these these ballots and voter roles is

478
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 3: not just to charge the possibly for people who may

479
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 3: have illegally voted, but then trying to put some of

480
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 3: the blame on election officials themselves. And yeah, and that

481
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 3: is modi of intimidation is certainly part of the goal here.

482
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 3: And that's written explicitly in some of these executive orders

483
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 3: threatening charges against US officials for allowing certain mail in

484
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 3: votes to be to be counted. Yeah, when the Trump

485
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 3: administration claims that they should not be.

486
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 4: Yeah. The nascence of this whole thing is Trump's calls

487
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 4: to electoral officials in Georgia, right, like the Fulton County,

488
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 4: the whole Yeah, fine, by find those votes. Yeah, yeah,

489
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 4: where it all began.

490
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, we'll keep up on this as it develops

491
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 3: leading into the midterm election.

492
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 4: But bye bye for now. Yeah, but early vote often, voter,

493
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 4: early vote often. Hello and welcome, Dick. Could happen here

494
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 4: a very special episode today because I am lucky enough

495
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 4: to be joined by Molly Kong.

496
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 9: Hi.

497
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 10: Molly, Hi, James, thanks for having me. I'm excited to

498
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 10: hear about today's topic.

499
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, today's topic is buffalo. If if it's just came

500
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 4: up on your phone without you clicking it, So I guess, look, buffalo.

501
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 4: When people imagine the great planes before European colonization, I

502
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 4: think buffalo are the fauna that they particularly imagine being present.

503
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 8: Right.

504
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 10: It's such a romantic image, right, and they're gone now,

505
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 10: but they were one so many. Like every time we

506
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 10: drive through southwest Virginia. I'm in central Virginia, So when

507
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 10: we drive through southwestern Virginia, my husband always brings up

508
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 10: this account that he read of someone witnessing the buffalo

509
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 10: stampeding through the Cumberland Gap.

510
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 4: Like we're oh wow, yeah, right.

511
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 10: Down on the tip of southwestern Virginia and just looking

512
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 10: at that place and imagining buffalo there, like you have

513
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 10: to romanticize it.

514
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 5: That's incredible.

515
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's sick. One of the coolest like American experiences

516
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 4: I've ever had, Maybe seven or eight years ago, now,

517
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 4: I was bike packing in the Colorado Wyoming border up there,

518
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 4: and I was with some friends. We've been like maybe

519
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 4: we're like three or four days in, you know, like

520
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 4: where you kind of hit the sweet spot at that

521
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 4: point when you like have it showered for that long

522
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 4: and you're just kind of disconnected from the world, that's

523
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 4: when it starts to get Molly's making a face fun.

524
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 5: You can't see just four days of human stink, it

525
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 5: really starts to get good.

526
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 4: That's when it gets good because you're just like, that's

527
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 4: how long it takes to disconnect, right, somethoking at your

528
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 4: phone and like worrying about not smelling the.

529
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 5: Stuff, becoming a beast of the outdoors.

530
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, you just returned to your feral self. I'd like

531
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 4: to return to my feral self as often as possible.

532
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 4: But we're like riding. I get where we're going at Walden.

533
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 4: Maybe we're coming off this big plateau dropping into this

534
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 4: big kind of like where it gets kind of more plane,

535
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 4: e big big kind of meadow plane. And we're coming

536
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 4: down there and it's a few of us and these

537
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 4: buffalo just come like from the side of us, and

538
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 4: they're running alongside us, right, and we're riding and we're cooking,

539
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 4: going twenty twenty five miles an hour or something like that,

540
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 4: and these buffalo are just cruising next to us because

541
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 4: they're just trying to get like trying to check out,

542
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 4: like what are these weirdos doing? And they're just like,

543
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 4: why the fuck would you put all your stuff on

544
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 4: a bicycle? And go ride around like this and then

545
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: we're like, oh, it's a fucking buffalo, and like for

546
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 4: like maybe a mile, they just kind of wanted to

547
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 4: keep this thing that they just wanted to keep tabs

548
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 4: on us as we're going down this dirt road and

549
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 4: then like they were getting really close, right, so they're

550
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 4: like kicking up all this dust, and you got to

551
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 4: feel like you are like almost one of the buffalo.

552
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 4: You know, you're in the herd traversing the planes.

553
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 5: I think you're supposed to keep your distance from them, right, Yeah,

554
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 5: they were.

555
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 4: We didn't have many choice at that point. Yeah, when

556
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 4: they're like, do not approach. Yeah, they were approaching us.

557
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 4: We didn't stop. I was like pretty pretty keen on

558
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 4: not stopping. And Molly is right.

559
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 5: They look so pettable, but they're really not.

560
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 4: They're really Yeah, despite their fluffy appearance. It's it's advised.

561
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 4: Like any time in the Yellowstone pretty much, especially in

562
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 4: these summer months, you will find a video tourist approaching

563
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 4: a buffalo and regretting that scision pretty big. I've been

564
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 4: going by a bowl before and I would like to

565
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 4: keep it to one. Going for me.

566
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 5: One is all most people get.

567
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it is. I was pretty let me tell you,

568
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 4: I thought that one was all I was going to get.

569
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 4: I was I was ready to make my peace of

570
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 4: the world. Luckily I got a second chance.

571
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 8: Yeah.

572
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 4: People kind of focus on a buffalo, right, They ignore

573
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 4: many of the other species that we lost during dis

574
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 4: intent period of ecological destruction, right, And I can see why. Really,

575
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 4: you can find images of piles of dead buffalo skulls.

576
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 4: There's that really haunting image of the idea of killing

577
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 4: animals only for their capes or their tongues. Often this

578
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 4: period of genocidal violence is referred to as a buffalo genocide,

579
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 4: and I think that encapsulates, right, not just the destruction

580
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 4: of the buffalo population, but also of the indigenous cultures

581
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 4: that relied on that buffalo population and of the ecology

582
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 4: they went with. Obviously, when I say destruction, I'm not

583
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 4: saying they've gone very much till here till present, but

584
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 4: the attempt by the government and capitalism to remove those

585
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 4: people from that land. But yeah, it is a shame

586
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 4: that these other animals don't get a fat shake. Have

587
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 4: you ever seen a blackfooted ferret?

588
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 10: When you said there was going to be something about ferrets,

589
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 10: I was thinking about it, and I realized all domesticated

590
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 10: animals were wild animals, and it never occurred to me

591
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 10: that a ferret could live outside.

592
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, a ferret thrives in the outdoors. I really wanted

593
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 4: to have ferrets when I was younger, Like I enjoyed

594
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 4: the presence of ferrets. I enjoyed working with ferrets.

595
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 5: Oh, he's kind of cute in a way.

596
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 4: He's gross. The ferrets are very sweet. Yeah, we had

597
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 4: we had friend with ferrets growing up, so we would

598
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 4: use them to They use them to catch rabbits in

599
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 4: the UK, right. Oh. Yeah. The reason that these guys

600
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 4: struggle to get back on the landscape is because they

601
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 4: need massive prairie dog towns to feed of.

602
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 5: Oh do they live in like societies? Do they live

603
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 5: like a prairie dog's? So the ferrets live in like

604
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 5: ferret villages.

605
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 4: The ferrets predate the prairie dogs.

606
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 5: But do they live in like a village.

607
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 4: I don't know if they live in like I don't

608
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 4: know what their social structure is. In Colorado, there's a

609
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 4: National Blackfooted Ferret Center where you can go and see them.

610
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 4: I've cycled past it, but I regret not going in

611
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 4: maybe I'll make a special trip reach out if you're

612
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 4: with the ferret people.

613
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 5: Sorry, I said, he looks gross.

614
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, please don't counsel us, because the prairie dog towns

615
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 4: can collapse, right, really, their populations can collapse pretty easily.

616
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 4: They get like infecta's disease is so they need like

617
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 4: a massive number of prairie dog towns in order to

618
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 4: have a sustainable genetically these ferret population.

619
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 5: Oh, I get it, I get it.

620
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 4: And because we don't have those right, because they are

621
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 4: not generally amenable to agriculture, and then the ecosystem is

622
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 4: very different from it what it's naturally worse. That means

623
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 4: I don't know if there are any there are when

624
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 4: they're not extinct genetically but ecologically, in terms of their

625
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 4: participation in the ecosystem, I don't think there are any.

626
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 4: Very fair I think there are some in the Charles

627
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 4: Russell Wildlife Refuge, but very few blackfooted ferrets, which is

628
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 4: a shame because of their cool little guys.

629
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 10: I mean, I guess, given what we did to the

630
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 10: landscape of so much of the country, I'm sure there

631
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 10: are other animals that just like their niche is gone.

632
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that is exactly what I want to talk

633
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 4: about today, right, Like, specifically I want to talk about

634
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 4: buffalo because of the canceling of some public land grazingly

635
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 4: since of buffalo, before we do that, Molley, we should

636
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 4: talk about the terminology, right, Buffalo bison discussion.

637
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 5: Right, because they're not buffalo, their bison bison bison.

638
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,439
Speaker 4: And as we are, what five minutes into this, someone

639
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 4: has already logged onto Reddit. They have opened.

640
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 5: Already made the threat already exists, that's already that address.

641
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 5: It's too late.

642
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, we should have moved this to the to the

643
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 4: front of the episode again, and that if that is

644
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 4: you redditing, please stop. I am aware that scientifically we

645
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 4: should call them bison. I don't care. English speaking people

646
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 4: have been calling these animals buffalo since English speaking people

647
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 4: came to this continent. They did so because the animals

648
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 4: reminded them of Cape Buffalo. I actually have had a

649
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 4: frame gored by a cape buffalo as well. We're going

650
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 4: through most of my goring experience.

651
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 5: You got to leave these big cow type creatures alone.

652
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 4: He was ambushed that my my going was entirely my fault,

653
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 4: like you shouldn't be unkind to animals, and I deserved it,

654
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 4: and it was a good learning experience for me. It wasn't.

655
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 4: I think it's just a bad overall experience. Being Gore

656
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 4: wouldn't recommend it.

657
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 5: I'm avoiding it.

658
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, you've got this far, you're probably good. I think

659
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 4: men in their twenties are probably like peaple does.

660
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 10: I think once you hit thirty, your odds decreased dramatically.

661
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're out the wind, unless you're working with cattle.

662
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 4: Like my dad got pretty close a couple times when

663
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 4: I was a kid. I remember jumping over a fence once,

664
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 4: but I think that was more of a professional hazard

665
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 4: than like a lifestyle choice. So here's the deal, Right,

666
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,720
Speaker 4: there are many species in the USA which have names

667
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 4: similar to species on other continents that they are not

668
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 4: the same European blackbirds and American blackbirds.

669
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 8: Right.

670
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 4: Robins would be another example. There is a different sheep's headfish.

671
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 4: Almost everywhere I have gone underwater, everyone has a sheep's head.

672
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 4: The coolest sheep's head for people wondering is California sheep's

673
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 4: head because it undergoes a sex change, making it a

674
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 4: pretty cool fish. Also, it gets really cool after it transitions.

675
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 4: It gets like these black and red stripes. It's one

676
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 4: of my favorite fish. If you want to be censurious

677
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 4: about buffalo names, I would suggest picking one of the

678
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 4: many Indigenous words that have been used to refer to

679
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 4: his animal for far, far longer than buffalo or bison. Also,

680
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 4: buffalo is one of the cooler words in English language.

681
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 5: Buffalo, buffalo, buffalo, buffalo.

682
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly.

683
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 7: Yes.

684
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 4: It is the longest single word sentence because it's a

685
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 4: down and a verb and a proper down right.

686
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 10: Right like so it's it's buffalo, the city, buffalo, the

687
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 10: animal buffalo, the verb meaning like what like to bully

688
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 10: or something to like.

689
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know if you've been around them, but

690
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 4: they do do this. They sort of bother the bush.

691
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

692
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'm making of course at motion with my

693
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 4: neck and shoulders. Not one apart from Molly can see.

694
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 11: Uh.

695
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're they're they're just kind of aggressive in a

696
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 4: sort of pokey and yeah, like it's a good verb.

697
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 7: I don't know.

698
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 4: Hang around what you watch a buffalo, you'll get it. Yeah,

699
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 4: it's buffalo, the proper down buffalo, the nown buffalo, the

700
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 4: verb buffalo, the proper down buffalo, the verb no. Buffalo

701
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 4: the noun.

702
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 5: I'm gonna have to diagram this one.

703
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 7: Yeah.

704
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, like bison from upstate New York are bullying other

705
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 5: bison from upstate New York.

706
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 4: Yes, that is the a breakdown of the Buffalo sentence

707
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 4: fun trivia for everybody. Yeah, that's yeah, they will do

708
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 4: that the end of the year. Will quiz you why

709
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 4: are we talking about Buffalo today?

710
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 5: I can't remember.

711
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 7: I can.

712
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 4: Let me tell you. It's because the Bureau of Land

713
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 4: Management has canceled grazing rights in seven allotments public land

714
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 4: in Phillips County, Montana privately owned bison. And there's been

715
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 4: a bunch of reporting on this, like when this stuff happens,

716
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 4: when stuff the Trump administration does with public land, the outdoors,

717
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 4: they're they're like Democrat blue wave, fake news, panic accounts,

718
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 4: really really go kind of wild with it. They did

719
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 4: with this one, right. I think people running whatever, like

720
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 4: you know, Occupy Democrats and Suit Nation for Change Yeah whatever,

721
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 4: yeah by Democrats.

722
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 5: I forgot about pantsuit Nation. Wow, that's a real throwback.

723
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, I never forget about the Panasuit Nation. They live

724
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 4: forever in my mind. What I think, like the people

725
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 4: of that tendency have not realized is that these are

726
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 4: not per se wild buffalo. It's not like these buffalo

727
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 4: have individually, like oh, as a population survived the genocide,

728
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 4: been holding out in this land of Phillips County for

729
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 4: more than a century. Right. That doesn't mean that we

730
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 4: should be like callous about this. We shouldn't, But I

731
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 4: just want to explain a little more. I guess there

732
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 4: are still thousands of buffalo across the West on federal

733
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 4: and private land. Some of them have been raising on

734
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 4: public land with permits for more than four decades. Having

735
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 4: them on the landscape is a good thing, right. We

736
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 4: need the genetic diversity, even if they're privately owned.

737
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 7: Right.

738
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 5: So it's not just like I don't know knowing very

739
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 5: little about this.

740
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 10: I think a lot of the discourse around these, like

741
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 10: permits for grazing on public land, it's like, well, why

742
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 10: should these farmers get to use our public land for

743
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 10: their property for their cattle? And I don't know enough

744
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 10: about that to care about that at all. But in

745
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 10: terms of what buffalo due to the grassland, like just

746
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 10: walking around on it and eating it is part of

747
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 10: the maintenance of that grassland. Yes, yeah, like the eradication

748
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 10: of the buffalo in the Midwest caused ecological havoc because

749
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 10: we need them walking around and shitting on it.

750
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 7: Yeah.

751
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, Specifically what we need is them coming in, eating everything,

752
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 4: trampling around, shitting everywhere, and then leaving, right, because that

753
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 4: is what like so many indigenous cultures had these like

754
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 4: these like traditions that the buffalo go away in and

755
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,720
Speaker 4: we do a tradition and they come back. Right. This

756
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 4: happens for a lot of migratory animals. It's not just buffalo, right,

757
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 4: because it gave shape to time in people's lives. That's

758
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 4: how they impacted the landscape, right. They didn't stay in

759
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 4: one place. They moved through spaces. So like, if we

760
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 4: want to restore this short grass prairie ecosystem, which is

761
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 4: as it turns out, why people are putting buffalo on

762
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 4: this particular land, then we need a lot of space

763
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 4: to do it, and we need buffalo to be able

764
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 4: to move around. Right. So people who own these particular

765
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 4: buffalo are an NGO called American Prairie. You head of

766
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 4: American Prairie used to be American Prairie Reserve, No American

767
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 4: Prairie Foundation.

768
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 5: Okay, great, are they the villains or are the heroes neither.

769
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 4: I mean the Trump administration is the villains. Doug Bergham specifically,

770
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 4: I guess is always God.

771
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 5: I forgot about Doug Burgher.

772
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 8: Yeah.

773
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, Fortunately Doug is now Interior Secretary, thanks to ARII

774
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 4: for signing a letter endorsing him. Also, fuck you. American

775
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 4: prairie is interesting. I guess, like, it's not what I

776
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 4: would want, but I don't think it's evil.

777
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 5: Sounds like most NGOs.

778
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it sounds like most of the world as it exists.

779
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 4: Not Yeah, then how I would do it. American prairie

780
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 4: is a is a big engine. They've been trying for

781
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 4: about a quarter of a century to buy up private

782
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 4: land adjacent to public land around the Charles M. Russell

783
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 4: National Wildlife Refuge and the Upper Missouri River breaks national money.

784
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 4: So the goal is to create like by by like

785
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 4: bridging these two pieces of public land, to create a

786
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 4: massive reserve where like one of the things with with

787
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 4: bison specifically right, they need a lot of space and

788
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 4: very few bison can cross like political boundaries.

789
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 5: They don't have passports.

790
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 4: They don't. Yeah, this is one of their issues. They're undocumented,

791
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 4: you could say, But think about the Yellowstone people get

792
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 4: really mad about the Yellowstone bison leaving the park. This

793
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 4: is a big deal. This has been a big deal

794
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 4: for it.

795
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 7: Yeah.

796
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, people like what like they're.

797
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 5: Disney cast members, Like they're not allowed to leave in costo.

798
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, they have to return.

799
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 5: Take that off.

800
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, take the body off and just wear their head.

801
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 5: They can't be walking in the parking lot.

802
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can't see Mickey Mouse at Vonds like that

803
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 4: would really ruin the magic. Yeah, people get mad at them, right,

804
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 4: for a number of reasons.

805
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 5: The bubble don't know about the park that.

806
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 4: This is a thing, right and buffalo As it turns out,

807
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 4: they love to disrespect a fence, which I respect. I

808
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 4: like that about them.

809
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 5: If I had shoulders like that, I would disrespect a fence.

810
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, they so like Cattle fencing is generally not sufficient

811
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 4: for buffalo fencing. But buffalo fencing can be built people.

812
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 4: It does exist when people are building it, it's better

813
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 4: if they are conscious of other worldlife. Right, they can

814
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 4: another of the megafauna in the megafauna that has existed

815
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 4: here for for millenia, but it's now much much much

816
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 4: lower numbers are like prong corn antelope.

817
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 5: We have those here yes, I guess I don't really,

818
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 5: I've never really been out west, so you are Mulley's

819
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 5: out there.

820
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 4: If you would like us to make a podcast where

821
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 4: I take Molly camping, yeah, we just look at animals.

822
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 4: That would be my ideal job, a podcast where I

823
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 4: just talk to someone about an animal every week, Like

824
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 4: we go camping, we see an animal, we talk about it.

825
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 5: I didn't know ferret's lived outside. Like, think of all

826
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 5: you could show me?

827
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, be amazing. Yeah, God, we could have so much

828
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 4: fun if we start with the ferrets. Yeah, but prong

829
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:10,760
Speaker 4: horn are amazing. You've not seen a prong horn.

830
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 5: They lived in Africa. And what am I thinking of?

831
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 5: Like an ibex?

832
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean ibex does live in Africa. I think

833
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 4: some of them live on Okay, we're gonna.

834
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 5: Oh man, everyone's finding out. I don't know.

835
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 4: Anything podcast diversion.

836
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 5: I'm googling prong horn antelope. Yeah, you see them, and

837
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:29,760
Speaker 5: these they are just out there.

838
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, they just like they they live on the landscape.

839
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 4: They actually were massively numerous, like before the various extinction events.

840
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 5: So it's like a like a reindeer that lives in Colorado.

841
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 4: A reindeer reindeer are only reindeer in North America when

842
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 4: they're in captivity Cariboo when they when they are wild

843
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 4: picture of Cariboo.

844
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 5: We don't really have a lot of like wild animals

845
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 5: out here.

846
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 4: Really see that this is yeah, because the East coast

847
00:43:58,760 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 4: is much more urbanized.

848
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 10: Like like like every now and again, a baby bear

849
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 10: will wander into town and it's like big nicks.

850
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, I like it when a bear there's another

851
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 4: animal I have massive respect for. I love how they

852
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 4: don't give a shit. I respect any animal that eats

853
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 4: from the trash.

854
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

855
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 4: The prong horns are actually massive, Like I think antello

856
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 4: cap pridie is the genus. And then there are different species.

857
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 4: There were tons like we had we at one point

858
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 4: had tiny like weien a dog sized antelope. Oh like

859
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 4: a like a dick dick Yeah, yeah, like a dig

860
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 4: dig But.

861
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 5: That's a cool guy but fast.

862
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 4: Oh So, one of the things about prong horns is

863
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 4: they can jump. Like I've seen them jump.

864
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, it looks like a jumping guy.

865
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 4: Well, they don't like to jump. A fence is a thing.

866
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 10: Oh so then now you have like a problem. The

867
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 10: buffalo are stuck, but so is the antelope.

868
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, because that speed was always their like defense mechanism

869
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 4: right there, they're super that. I think cheetahs are the

870
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 4: only land animal that's faster and.

871
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:52,760
Speaker 5: They don't live in the same environment.

872
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 4: No, yeah, I knew that different continents. Yeah, yeah, there

873
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 4: is not a North American cheetah. I mean, at this point,

874
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 4: you could think that might have been.

875
00:44:58,680 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 5: A can tell me there is.

876
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 4: I think there might have been at one point, like

877
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 4: a like a prehistoric shooter a time. They headlick ground

878
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 4: slow some things. But yeah, when you're building the buffalo fencing,

879
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 4: you have to allow the prong horns to go under

880
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 4: if you're trying to build an ecological fence.

881
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 10: Oh, I guess because they could like bend over in

882
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 10: a way the buffalo can't exactly.

883
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 4: There's just more bubble.

884
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 5: It's too big.

885
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of chunk to a buffalo and

886
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 4: the way it couldn't get under there. Right. So the

887
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 4: other reason people don't like buffalo is because of brucellosis.

888
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 4: You know brucellosis.

889
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 5: Is is it a buffalo disease?

890
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 4: Well, it's a disease that buffalo can have. Maybe you

891
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 4: know from the Warren Zevon song don't. Okay, it's just funny.

892
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 4: I'm talking to Molly about really American shit to neither

893
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 4: there's a British person.

894
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 5: I don't know any of what you're saying.

895
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 4: Okay. Warren Zevon a very good famous musician, guy Sally Dead.

896
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,720
Speaker 5: But he has a song about buffalo disease.

897
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 4: He has a song which in part it talks about brucellosis.

898
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 4: It says, the cattle will have brucellosis. What a great

899
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 4: journey we're going on.

900
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 10: That's the service I provide, is the podcast idiot, because

901
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:05,720
Speaker 10: I know nothing.

902
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 4: You have a very deep, very deep well of knowledge.

903
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 4: It just doesn't extend to Warren's Evon.

904
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 10: No listener left behind, Like there's no one sitting here

905
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 10: listening wishing that something had been explained more because I'm

906
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,479
Speaker 10: making you explain what Antelope are.

907
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 5: Yea and what a Warren Yvonn is.

908
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, we could go off on at Tangent Higgs.

909
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 1: I don't know.

910
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 4: This song is about the fact that Sweet Home Alabama

911
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 4: is a deeply, deeply hateful song, but it does. That

912
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 4: does get mentioned quite a lot. But yeah, the brucellosis.

913
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,359
Speaker 10: But I feel like once you're touching a buffalo you

914
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 10: have worse problems than whatever.

915
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 2: This is.

916
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 5: Oh, well not great.

917
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it depends, it depends who you are, right, Like, Uh,

918
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 4: what brucellosis does is generally it infects heifer's so like

919
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 4: young lady cows, it will cause them to abort their

920
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 4: first calf.

921
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 12: Sound.

922
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's sad. Also, because of the word it's controlled,

923
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 4: your herd can get killed out. If you have brucellosis, it.

924
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 5: Would be contagious to people's like cattle.

925
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 4: Yes, and that would be very bad.

926
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 10: So okay, when you see people don't like buffalo because

927
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 10: they're worried about brusilosis, they're not worried that they will

928
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 10: get brucellosis, they're worried that it will affect their cattle.

929
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 4: Yes, I do believe people can get brucellosis. I'm not

930
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 4: as familiar with that.

931
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 5: Apparently I'm looking here.

932
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 10: Apparently if you do get it, there's a twenty percent

933
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 10: chance that your testicles are going to swell up real bad.

934
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 4: So oh wow, I didn't know that.

935
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 5: Ok I guess the why they don't want it.

936
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that would also be bad, right like big

937
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 4: bull Brucellosis painful like that.

938
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 5: Okay, so we're talking about the cattle industry. I'm on board.

939
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 5: I'm on board.

940
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the cattle that they're concerned about. They can

941
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 4: take or leave the testicular swelling like they're tough.

942
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 5: Why are they touching the buffalo in the first place,

943
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 5: they're not?

944
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, they're not.

945
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 8: Okay.

946
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's a buffalo coming out and causing the

947
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 4: cattle to get brucellosis. Right, here's the deal. Elk also

948
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 4: get brucelos.

949
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 5: I know about elk, We have those, okay.

950
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know.

951
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 4: Okay, So an elk also travels widely, right, and elk

952
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 4: it's not generally an animal that is kept behind high fences.

953
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,479
Speaker 4: Sometimes that there probably are high fence like game farms

954
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 4: where people paid to go and hunt.

955
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:17,760
Speaker 5: Elk, as we have some in Virginia.

956
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's kind of gross in my opinion. I

957
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 4: don't like that. But elk also carry brucellosis. Right, So

958
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 4: if we're concerned about brucellosis, we also need to be

959
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 4: concerned about elk. But it really doesn't get brought up

960
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 4: in the elk discussion. It gets brought up in the

961
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 4: in the buffalo discussion. So these are the reasons that

962
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 4: some of the reasons that people don't like buffalo.

963
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,240
Speaker 10: Right, right, because they carry they carry a cow disease,

964
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 10: and they don't like to stay inside the park.

965
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 4: Got it, Yeah, yeah, they don't like to stay inside

966
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,959
Speaker 4: the park. We've talked for a long time, Molly, talking

967
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 4: of things that might cause your testicles to swell. Here

968
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 4: is some products and services or maybe it'll help. Yeah,

969
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 4: maybe maybe you'll have bought your first calf. Who knows.

970
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 4: It's roll the dice. All right, we are back. So

971
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 4: let's talk about the area where this is happening. Right,

972
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 4: This is happening in kind of northern central Montana around Livingstone.

973
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 4: Lots of the land in this area has actually dropped

974
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 4: below the population density that Turner considered to be evidence

975
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 4: of the closure of the frontier when he was developing

976
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 4: that thesis. Right, I'm not a big fan of the

977
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 4: concept of the frontier. If that's another podcast it I'll

978
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 4: make one day, But I don't like it.

979
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 5: But there's like no people there.

980
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's yeah, there are. There are very few people there,

981
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 4: in part because cattle farming is hard, in part because

982
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 4: it's harder in a globalized economy, in part because of

983
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 4: climate change. There's this theory of the Buffalo Commons written

984
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 4: by two people called Popper, and they considered like this

985
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 4: specific area to be a tragedy of the commons, where

986
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 4: this beautiful plains ecosystem has been destroyed, and they put

987
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 4: forward the idea that the presence of buffalo and the

988
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 4: landscape could return it to a sort of short grass

989
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 4: prairie commons. This isn't a direct link to the American

990
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 4: Prairie Reserve, but this is kind of what they're trying

991
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 4: to do. They're not putting buffalo on the landscape because

992
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 4: they are a buffalo organization.

993
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 5: Right, so they're trying to restore the grassland.

994
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 4: Yes, that's the idea, because we don't have a prairie

995
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 4: national park. Right when colonization was moving west, as a

996
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 4: Department of Homeland Security likes to highlight with its use

997
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 4: of that image, liberty was floating across the planes there. Sorry,

998
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 4: let's just put the image in my head. Remember when

999
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 4: the Trump administration is getting very aggressive towards Somali people.

1000
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 4: I guess it still is. Yeah, yeah, did you see

1001
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 4: the Ai version of that where it's a Somali woman

1002
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 4: like crossing the plaines? No, okay, it was pretty funny.

1003
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 4: It was one of there you're.

1004
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 5: Doing an opposed like like like the Mermaid on the

1005
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 5: front of a ship.

1006
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, Yeah, Like yeah, it was like this is

1007
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 4: a Somali promised land. Like they were like, I guess,

1008
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 4: parodying American rhetoric towards indigenous people and being.

1009
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 10: Like, like, Somali people can't do manifest destiny.

1010
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 5: I thought we loved that.

1011
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was very funny. It was. It was

1012
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 4: kind of amusing to see that American rhetoric reflected back.

1013
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 4: Somali people have incredible posting abilities that HS was not

1014
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 4: ready for. So what the what the APR is trying

1015
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 4: to do is yet use the buffalo here as like

1016
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 4: a landscape engineer, right, like an animal that will help

1017
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 4: return this area to I guess natural state is a

1018
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 4: problematic term, you know.

1019
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 5: But like to it's pre industrial state.

1020
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:56,959
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1021
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:57,760
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1022
00:51:58,040 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 4: When we think about like why isn't there a plane

1023
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 4: national park, we have to consider the role the capitalism place, right.

1024
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 5: Because no one would go visit that.

1025
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, well I think they would. The plans would beautiful

1026
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 4: in their in their way, right, But I guess, like.

1027
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 10: You know, just thinking like is the role of the

1028
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 10: national park to preserve this landscape, this ecosystem, or is

1029
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 10: it to create a place where people could go and

1030
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 10: buy things?

1031
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly right.

1032
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 5: Increasingly it's the latter.

1033
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think there is a bias towards preserving Yeah,

1034
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 4: there's there's like a scenic vista bias. This is an

1035
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,399
Speaker 4: area where people could ranch cattle, and so like that

1036
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 4: happened instead, you know, and then we got to a

1037
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 4: point where like no one was going to give up

1038
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 4: their private land to make a massive park.

1039
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,319
Speaker 5: Well they didn't want to in any of the other

1040
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 5: times either, So.

1041
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 2: The government needs to make you.

1042
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the government could force you back in

1043
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 4: the day.

1044
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 10: I mean, I just can't imagine a new national park

1045
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 10: ever coming into existence. We just don't have that kind

1046
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 10: of political will anymore.

1047
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we might get like the Donald Trump's

1048
00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 4: birthplace National Park or like something similar, you know, like.

1049
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 5: We would never get Yellowstone again, Yeah, we wouldn't.

1050
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 4: And like part of that is because they violently remove

1051
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 4: the indigenous people from those places in order to I don't.

1052
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:11,959
Speaker 10: Want to romanticize that. Like I live near Shenandoa Valley

1053
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 10: National Park where people were forced out in a pretty

1054
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,240
Speaker 10: brutal way, that's a big part of the history here.

1055
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 10: So I don't want to romanticize the creation of the

1056
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 10: national park. I just mean, like, the government is not

1057
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 10: going to spend a lot of money on something that's

1058
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 10: just for everyone to enjoy.

1059
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 4: Ever again, yeah, yeah, and they're not going to say, like,

1060
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 4: to an extent, we are removing this piece of land

1061
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 4: from the rapacious capitalism that has destroyed the rest of

1062
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 4: our natural spaces.

1063
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 5: So if somebody's going to eat this grass, it's going

1064
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 5: to be hamburgers.

1065
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 4: We wanted to turn into the cheapest meat possible. Also,

1066
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 4: like I should point out that like land back and

1067
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 4: national parks are very very very different things. I like

1068
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 4: to kind of illustrate this with the idea that during

1069
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 4: the Nez Perce War, as a Nez person like fighting

1070
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 4: their way towards the Canadian border, they are having gunfights

1071
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 4: in Yellowstone National Park as tourists are coming to Yellowstone

1072
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 4: to like check out the mountains and nursey the geysers

1073
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 4: and stuff.

1074
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 5: You know, that's that's America.

1075
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just perfectly America, right, Like, we'll look at it. Look,

1076
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 4: we're preserving this for you as we violently remove the

1077
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 4: indigenous people and.

1078
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 10: Just like coming to spend your tourism dollars, never mind

1079
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 10: that there's a war going on there.

1080
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, just being like just kind of letting that go past.

1081
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 5: Whatever the time period equivalent of a visor and a

1082
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 5: fanny pack was that was cooking.

1083
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah for sure, probably probably a cigar. And I

1084
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 4: know this trousers to stop past your knee. So you'll

1085
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 4: hear people saying a lot of shit about the API

1086
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 4: of the America Prayer Reserve, right, And so I did

1087
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 4: what I should do as a responsible journalist, and I

1088
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 4: pulled their nine nineties.

1089
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 10: That's my favorite thing to do. Yeah, where's the money going? Yeah,

1090
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 10: well where's the money coming from?

1091
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,879
Speaker 4: Yeah? Where the money coming from. You'll hear a lot

1092
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 4: of like anti API stuff, someone from the cattle in this.

1093
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 4: If you go through that part of Montana, you'll see

1094
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 4: signs that say like save the cowboys, stop the American

1095
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 4: Prairie Reserve.

1096
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 10: I think we have a different understanding of what a

1097
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 10: cowboy is me and the sign maker.

1098
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, Well, it is inherently time, I guess, to cattle, right,

1099
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 4: and the idea being that these bison are displacing cattle.

1100
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 4: It's not a direct contract with cattle. In fact, the

1101
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 4: APR has ten times more cattle on its land than

1102
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 4: it does buys it. Like most ranches, the APR has

1103
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 4: deeded or private land that they graze on leasing right

1104
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 4: to adjacent public land. What the APR is spending its

1105
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 4: money on, among other things, among like some staffing costs,

1106
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,479
Speaker 4: of its costs, paying consultants, paying fundraisers, pay consultants. Oh yeah,

1107
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 4: they're dropping some coin on consultants. Is they buy up ranches.

1108
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 4: The way land ownership works in this area is kind

1109
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 4: of like a checkerboard, and you've got public land and

1110
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 4: private land.

1111
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 10: So they're trying to make pathways for the bison by

1112
00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 10: buying contiguous plots.

1113
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're not all contiguous, but their goal is to

1114
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 4: have a large contiguous area in which.

1115
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 5: Right, and you just have to buy them when they

1116
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 5: come up exactly.

1117
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:08,879
Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah.

1118
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 4: I think the argument is that they're they're pushing up

1119
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:15,280
Speaker 4: land prices, right, But in reality, this area is depopulating rapidly.

1120
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 4: It might push up land prices a little bit, but

1121
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,439
Speaker 4: it's not like there's massive bidding wars going on here

1122
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 4: for each of these ranches.

1123
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,479
Speaker 10: Right, because are there new people seeking new cow ranching

1124
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 10: opportunities who are trying to move in who are being

1125
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 10: prevented from doing that.

1126
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 4: Will be people trying to like either I guess, if

1127
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 4: expand their ranch, or if a family is subdividing its ranch,

1128
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 4: or if you didn't inherit your family ranch, I guess,

1129
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,919
Speaker 4: and want to buy some land. Generally, how it works

1130
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 4: here is you buy a certain part of land. It'll

1131
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 4: be like sixty forty seventy thirty something like that. So

1132
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 4: you'll buy land, and that would give you the privilege

1133
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 4: to have like first DIBs on grazing on the public

1134
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 4: land that is adjacent to your land. So most of

1135
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 4: these ranches are checkerboarded, right, It's not like a bigtiguous plot.

1136
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 4: So not being able to graize a bison on the

1137
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 4: public land kind of fucks that up in these plots

1138
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 4: for the American prairie people, right, And like I should

1139
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 4: say that, like I have some sympathy for people ranching

1140
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 4: in this area, like my family of farmers, Like it's

1141
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 4: going to be really fucking hard right now when fuel

1142
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 4: prices are insanely high to be trying to farm on

1143
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 4: these especially the way that like American people farm have

1144
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 4: massive expanses, right, you have to be in a vehicle

1145
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 4: a lot. When I was reading about the brucellosis stuff,

1146
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 4: and it made me think of foot and mouth disease,

1147
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 4: which happened in the UK when I was a child.

1148
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 4: I remember how traumatic that was for people having their

1149
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 4: whole herds killed. Several people who were like within our

1150
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:45,439
Speaker 4: extended family social circle killed themselves and they're horrible when

1151
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 4: they lost all their cattle. Yeah, like it's really fucked up,

1152
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 4: Like at least in that part of the world, like

1153
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 4: you might have. It might have been your great grandfather

1154
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 4: who started bringing these cattle, right, Like, it's an intergenerational

1155
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 4: project that nick joins lining through your family. So I

1156
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 4: do understand these people like deeply tied to this land.

1157
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 4: Also not in the same way as Indigenous people. I

1158
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 4: can see that people like you know, don't want it

1159
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 4: to change. I understand that, and like consolidation and agriculture

1160
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 4: climate change, the way our foody consistem works, that is

1161
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 4: an issue we should address if we want to take

1162
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 4: care of the land. What the government is doing, it's

1163
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 4: not how we address that. Sometimes you'll see people saying

1164
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 4: that the APR is entirely a tax avoidance system for

1165
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 4: the Mars family, like the chocolate people. Yeah, yeah, big chocolate.

1166
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 4: You familiar the Mars family a rich as fuck.

1167
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I didn't know they were involved in the in

1168
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 5: the bison industry.

1169
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 4: Well, they have donated. I couldn't find an exact figure, right,

1170
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 4: Like with the change of nonprofit like the reporting laws,

1171
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 4: it's a lot harder now than it used to be.

1172
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 5: So they don't own or operate it. They've just made

1173
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 5: large donations.

1174
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 4: They've made Lars donations. It's a unit called Mars Vista

1175
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 4: within the APR, which has some private housing on it.

1176
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 4: But like I think people are fundamentally misunderstanding how they're

1177
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 4: super wealthy, Like these people are worth more than one

1178
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 4: hundred billion dollars. I would highly encourage anyone who thinks

1179
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 4: that an NGO which is going through like in the

1180
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 4: tens of millions a year, maybe by twenty fifteen. So

1181
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 4: in the first fourteen years of this project's existence, say

1182
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 4: donated twenty million. That's not touching the edges.

1183
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 10: I'm sure they have a complicated tax shelter system set

1184
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 10: up for themselves that doesn't involve bison. It involves bank

1185
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 10: accounts and countries. You haven't heard of.

1186
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, Like the Panama Paper's had zero bison in

1187
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 4: it for a reason, right, Like you're just being very

1188
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 4: it's very sweet if you think that. Like the way

1189
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 4: that they are avoiding paying federal taxes is buying land

1190
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 4: to put buffalo on.

1191
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 10: Like all these families have their own whole foundations that

1192
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 10: are just about moving money around in opaque ways. Yeah,

1193
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:46,959
Speaker 10: if you're trying to avoid paying taxes, you don't donate

1194
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 10: to a real charity that's actually doing something complicated with

1195
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 10: physical animals and land. You have a foundation that does

1196
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 10: grants for something obscure.

1197
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like it's just not it's just just not it.

1198
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 4: Like it's just it's not it. That's not how taxes work.

1199
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 4: That's not how ridge people work. So we've talked about

1200
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 4: Brucelosi is going to move past brucellosis, and I had

1201
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 4: a diversion on chronic wasting disease and elk feeding, but

1202
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 4: maybe we'll make that a whole other podcast. So we

1203
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 4: also talked about this this checkerboarding of public land. Right,

1204
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 4: lots of these ranching operations that they're buying rely heavily

1205
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 4: on public land grazing. So in twenty twenty two. They

1206
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 4: applied in twenty nineteen. The BLM allowed them to graze

1207
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 4: bison on seven plots in Phillips County. Right, So that's

1208
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 4: saying that you can put your bison on this public

1209
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 4: land which is adjacent to the private land which you own.

1210
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 5: And that's standard practice. Everybody's doing that.

1211
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 4: It depends on the particular plot, right, So they had

1212
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 4: to apply to the Bureau of Land Management.

1213
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 5: It's like pretty common for people to be grazing to

1214
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 5: get these permits to graze on the public land.

1215
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 4: There have been bison on public land for forty years.

1216
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 4: There remain bison on public land across the West, to

1217
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 4: include some tribes grazed bison on public land as well

1218
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 4: as on tribal land.

1219
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 5: But like the cattle farmers are doing this as well.

1220
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, the cattle farmers are alder Yeah yeah, but that's.

1221
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 10: Like some I'm saying, like, if you buy this plot

1222
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 10: of land, it's like kind of common that you would

1223
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 10: also be grazing on the public land adjacent to it.

1224
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's entirely understood, like or not even adjacent to,

1225
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 4: but sometimes like interspersed with Yeah, Like so if you

1226
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 4: look at like a sometimes you'll see like a de

1227
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 4: died and a least acreage when you're looking at like

1228
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:27,440
Speaker 4: a land, like if you were if you were interested

1229
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 4: in buying a ranch Molley.

1230
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 10: So like when they so, when they bought this land,

1231
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 10: it would be reasonable for them to assume that they

1232
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 10: would be able to use the parcels adjacent and interspersed

1233
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:35,920
Speaker 10: within it.

1234
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, okay, yes, and they would have known that

1235
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 4: that would have required in some cases asking the BLM, right,

1236
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 4: which is what they did. And in twenty twenty two,

1237
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 4: the BLM said, go ahead, put your by some in

1238
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 4: this on these particular seven plots, right, So they were

1239
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 4: amended to include bison. They've got environmental impact study done,

1240
01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 4: you know, they did all the things.

1241
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 5: Is doing an environmental impact study of the presence of

1242
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 5: a native of animal.

1243
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, on its native range.

1244
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 5: What would happen if a buffalo lived here?

1245
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 8: Yeah?

1246
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 5: We asked ten government scientists.

1247
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, we spent thousands of dollars finding out what happens

1248
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 4: if buffalo lives in buffalo home. Turned out didn't do

1249
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 4: massive ecological damage, So BLM said, let the buffalo back.

1250
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 4: What is interesting about this rule change is the justification

1251
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 4: the BLM is using and that is the thing that

1252
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 4: people should be worried about. In my opinion, that should

1253
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 4: be the headline. The headline should be, So the BLM

1254
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 4: is trying to regulate these leases that have their roots

1255
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 4: in the nineteen thirty four Taylor Grazing Act.

1256
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 5: I'm not unknowingly.

1257
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, the Tailor Grazing Act a big deal when

1258
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 4: it comes to public land in the West in farming. Right,

1259
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 4: it is trying to regulate these leases to quote unquote

1260
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 4: productive purposes. It doesn't say productive purposes anywhere I can

1261
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 4: find in the Tailor grazing net. It does use the

1262
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 4: term I guess domestic livestock.

1263
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 5: I think could be a livestock.

1264
01:02:57,040 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 4: Well, they are a livestock.

1265
01:02:58,520 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 5: I've eaten them.

1266
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, they These bison are vaccinated, they are fenced, they

1267
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 4: are tagged, they'll be handled. I'm guessing the way the

1268
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 4: API does it is like a kind of non invasive handling,

1269
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 4: like trying to keep them not acclimated to human contact

1270
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 4: per se.

1271
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 5: But like it's hard to ask a livestock a bison

1272
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 5: to human content.

1273
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can get like beefalow, right, which is like

1274
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 4: a like a hybridized bison.

1275
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 5: They sell bison that my whole foods. That's livestock.

1276
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1277
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 4: The APR is not raising them to kill them to

1278
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 4: sell them for meat.

1279
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 10: But they could if they wanted to, Like, because I

1280
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 10: don't think the government is ever going to go to

1281
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 10: a cattle rancher and say you have to kill X

1282
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 10: number of these or they're no longer livestock.

1283
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1284
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 4: Well that is the question, right, Like, what if we

1285
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 4: choose if you gave me a million dollars today, I

1286
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 4: would immediately cease making podcasts. I would buy a large

1287
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 4: plot land, and I would have an ungodly number of

1288
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 4: rare and endangered domestic livestock species. Right, I'd have jacob sheep.

1289
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 4: I'd have polyseric sheep with four horns, you know, like

1290
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 4: satan looking sheep. I'd be all about.

1291
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 10: It, and they would remain leag livestock even if you

1292
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 10: had no intention of eating them.

1293
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 4: Well, that is the question, right. The productive purposes definition

1294
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 4: could be extremely broad. What if you're doing practice like

1295
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 4: restorative ranching.

1296
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 10: Right, what if the Bureau of Land Management was concerned

1297
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 10: with the land being properly managed.

1298
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 4: Well, at a point, I guess the BLM was right

1299
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 4: because there was a rule. This is actually kind of funny.

1300
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 4: It was called the Conservation and Landscape Health Rule, and

1301
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 4: the BLM rescinded that last week. So previously that was

1302
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 4: one of the considerations for managing land, for managing public land,

1303
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 4: And I guess like we should just briefly say that

1304
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 4: there is no such thing as government land, right, It's

1305
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 4: all native land. And the land which is currently managed

1306
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 4: by the government is paid for by me and Molly

1307
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 4: and everyone else. Doug Berghen doesn't own it. It is

1308
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 4: there for future generations, right, Like.

1309
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 5: It's like, what is what are they going to do

1310
01:04:57,200 --> 01:04:57,400
Speaker 5: with it?

1311
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:01,439
Speaker 10: If they kicked the buffalo off of it.

1312
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 4: Will be my guest card the Cattalony leases.

1313
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 5: So they're just going to lease it to someone else.

1314
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, But like, I guess some portions of public land

1315
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 4: in that part of Montana are entirely land locked by

1316
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 4: private land. Like one of the things that APR did

1317
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 4: that made people like it there is that the APR

1318
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 4: bought a ranch and then opened up a gated road

1319
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 4: which allowed people to access fifty thousand acres of public

1320
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 4: land that had previously been completely islanded. Right's so, like, right,

1321
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 4: what their plan is to do? They have to sell

1322
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 4: these ranches now, so.

1323
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 10: The government just is saying you can't use this public

1324
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 10: the land anymore in such a way that might negate

1325
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 10: your ability to use your privately owned land because we

1326
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 10: don't think bison our livestock.

1327
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, because bison awoke. More broadly, like this conservation of

1328
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 4: landscape health rull with sinshon is worrying, very amusingly, the

1329
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,360
Speaker 4: BLM has forgotten to take down the website that explains

1330
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 4: the value of the rule, so at the time of recording,

1331
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 4: the BLM's website still say quote, the rule recognizes conservation

1332
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 4: as an essential component of public lands management on equal

1333
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 4: footing with other multiple uses of these habitats. Americans rely

1334
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 4: on public lands to live a food, energy, cleaner and

1335
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 4: water wildlife habitat and places to recreate. The BLM knows

1336
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 4: the importance of balancing our use of natural resources with

1337
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 4: protecting public lands and waters for future generations. The rule

1338
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 4: will safeguard these lands and waters to protect our way

1339
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 4: of life. Still a bit cringe, But they've now rescinded

1340
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 4: that rule, So I guess our way of life is

1341
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 4: now under threat.

1342
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: Because I just.

1343
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:42,960
Speaker 5: Don't understand how this is justifiable at all. But I

1344
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 5: guess that's not really the point for.

1345
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 4: A lot of people, right, Like, it sort of flies

1346
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 4: under the radar because it's not, you know, like a

1347
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 4: big Washington thing. I can see how like in our

1348
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 4: major population centers, it can be easily to be like

1349
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 4: the Defudd cares where the cows and buffalo go.

1350
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 10: But I think, even aside from from an ecological argument,

1351
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:03,600
Speaker 10: which I think is very important, right that the restoration

1352
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:07,360
Speaker 10: of these grasslands, this is the government saying no, we're

1353
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:09,960
Speaker 10: going to take this public resource away from someone who

1354
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 10: is rightfully using it and paying to use it, and

1355
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 10: we're going to sell that right instead to a capitalist

1356
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:18,120
Speaker 10: concern over a bullshit fake reason.

1357
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, not that the APR is not. I suppose it's

1358
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 4: not really a capitalist concern. It's like a nonprofit.

1359
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 5: But there has to be some sort of big cattle

1360
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:26,440
Speaker 5: lobbying at play here.

1361
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there are elements of the cattle industry

1362
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 4: which have been opposed to bison, especially due to that

1363
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 4: departure of bison from the park is really something that

1364
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 4: for years has been like a point of tension in Yellowstone.

1365
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 4: It's worth who is for this and who is against it?

1366
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 4: I guess it is cattle ranches who are opposed to

1367
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 4: the grazing of bison out here.

1368
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 5: And who specifically is getting those seven specific plots.

1369
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:56,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think the reason they recinded those is

1370
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 4: because they were the seven most recently approved. Okay, because

1371
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 4: there are other plots. I think there are tribes in California,

1372
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 4: for instance, who have applied for buffalo grazing on public land.

1373
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:08,520
Speaker 4: And I should point out that like a tribal cultural herd,

1374
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 4: a food sovereignty herd is a very different thing to

1375
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 4: the APR. I hope that APR did know that. I

1376
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 4: know that tribal and trits.

1377
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 10: Would, but I guess as far as the government is concerned,

1378
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:19,640
Speaker 10: it's the same that danswers just know.

1379
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:21,720
Speaker 4: I don't know yet. We don't know yet, right, We

1380
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:23,720
Speaker 4: don't know if those tribal leases have been approved. What

1381
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 4: we do know is that, like this production standard is

1382
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 4: a thory of threat to them. The Coalition of Large

1383
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 4: Tribes actually wrote a letter opposing this decision. A quote

1384
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 4: from it here. It is offensive and unacceptable that the

1385
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:37,519
Speaker 4: federal government would still seek to keep buffalo off of

1386
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 4: these lands. Chairmen of the shann River Sioux Tribe, Ryman

1387
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:45,879
Speaker 4: Lebau wrote, adding that BLM lands are all former buffalo lands.

1388
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 4: He calls the decision a painful reprise the genocide the

1389
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:51,639
Speaker 4: federal government attempted could commit against us and our relative

1390
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 4: to buffalo. They also call it affirmative action for cattle,

1391
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 4: which is kind of funny. Wow. True, yeah, but yeah

1392
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 4: it's true, And it's like saying during cowdyr, Yeah, yeah,

1393
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 4: this is one our one angula is fine and the

1394
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 4: other one is in. I want people to be concerned

1395
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:09,560
Speaker 4: about this because it could be deeply damaging to the

1396
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 4: attempts of tribes to recover their buffalo population. It could

1397
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 4: be deeply damaging to our public lands. I guess I

1398
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 4: want to talk briefly about the buffalo genocide because they

1399
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:23,600
Speaker 4: think it's something that people have like a grasp of,

1400
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 4: but not like a maybe in depth understanding. What I

1401
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 4: want to briefly say is that the government played a

1402
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,320
Speaker 4: massive role in wiping out of most of a buffalo.

1403
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:32,640
Speaker 8: Right.

1404
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 4: We ended up with fewer than a thousand head at

1405
01:09:35,040 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 4: Buffalo like there were times when a tree falling down,

1406
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:44,479
Speaker 4: a lightning strike, a bad flood could have significantly altered

1407
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 4: the future of the species. Because there were so few.

1408
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 4: Capitalism also played a role, though. The idea that the

1409
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,439
Speaker 4: buffalo hunters were like just following orders from the government

1410
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 4: relies in part on books written by former buffalo hunters

1411
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 4: trying to absolve themselves. I would suggest that we also

1412
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:04,760
Speaker 4: look at the incentive provided to kill the animals and

1413
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:07,639
Speaker 4: to not make use of their remains after people did that, right,

1414
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,919
Speaker 4: because like as much as the government did, the capitalism

1415
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 4: that the government was ringing with it killed the majority

1416
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 4: of the wild buffalo in this country. And that is

1417
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 4: what's happening again, right we look at public lands management today.

1418
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 4: The glass yearro was of chuck O Kanyon. Chakokanyon was

1419
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 4: the site of the biggest building in what is now

1420
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:32,120
Speaker 4: the United States until the eighteen eighties. Oh chuck O

1421
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 4: and civilization built these massive great houses there. Really really beautiful,

1422
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,720
Speaker 4: amazing place, one of the less visited units in the

1423
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:42,240
Speaker 4: National Park System. Gorgeous, amazing. I saw some out there too.

1424
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 5: This is all news to me.

1425
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 4: You got to go to Chaka Kanyon.

1426
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:47,639
Speaker 5: We have to find something we can record that gets

1427
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 5: me down to the Southwest.

1428
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:49,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1429
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 4: I bet there are some biggots, you know there are

1430
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:54,799
Speaker 4: because they use they appropriate the Zooni sacred Sun symbol

1431
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 4: in some of their Nazi shit because have we not

1432
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 4: fucking done enough? Well, apparently not right, because there is

1433
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:05,799
Speaker 4: there is a campaign to have drilling to like dealist

1434
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 4: areas of Chaco Canyon. I also spent time last year

1435
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 4: in Which in Homeland, with which in people there. What's

1436
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,799
Speaker 4: happening is a Trump administration is trying to grant drilling

1437
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:21,960
Speaker 4: permits in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, the which and people,

1438
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 4: I should say, preferred to use the term Arctic refuge,

1439
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:25,719
Speaker 4: So I'm going to try and use that going forward.

1440
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:31,080
Speaker 4: They don't like anoir just that. So what that will do,

1441
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:35,680
Speaker 4: right is on the on the plane there drilling is

1442
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 4: the place where the caribou migrate. The porcupine caribou herd

1443
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 4: makes the longest land mammal migration in the world.

1444
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 5: So we're just speed running the devastation of every cool,

1445
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:45,000
Speaker 5: big animal we have.

1446
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, we're going to do drilling in the place

1447
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:50,920
Speaker 4: where the caribou carve, right, and if they don't go

1448
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 4: there to carve, then it's over. Yeah, And there are

1449
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 4: so few of these animals left, right, they can cross

1450
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 4: political boundaries, that can travel their great dis stance is

1451
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:04,839
Speaker 4: unimpeded by capitalism. Largely that's because the which in territory

1452
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 4: is not a reservation. It's like they own it. So

1453
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 4: they can go off public land onto Gwichinland and without

1454
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:13,240
Speaker 4: the caribou, like the Gwitchin culture cannot be the same

1455
01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 4: as it is, right the caribou is sacred to them

1456
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:18,200
Speaker 4: like that culture in the distance of the Cariboo, I guess,

1457
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:21,759
Speaker 4: are tied together, and like the same could be said

1458
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:24,320
Speaker 4: for bison, right Like that it's part of the reason

1459
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:26,639
Speaker 4: that we don't have bison on the planes anymore because

1460
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:29,320
Speaker 4: indigenous people on the bison went hand in hand in

1461
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:31,720
Speaker 4: the genocide of the indigenous peoples. There was also a

1462
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:33,400
Speaker 4: genocide of the buffalo, I guess, and those two things

1463
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:36,559
Speaker 4: weren't separate or distinct. And I think, like there's this

1464
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 4: idea in the American liberal psyche that like a bison

1465
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 4: being on the land constitutes a return and like that's

1466
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:46,040
Speaker 4: not it, right, Like privately owned bison being on the

1467
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 4: APR is not land back.

1468
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 10: I mean, it would restore the grassland to some degree,

1469
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:53,280
Speaker 10: but that's not that doesn't have the same cultural impact

1470
01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:57,160
Speaker 10: as returning the land to its natural stewards.

1471
01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, and allowing indigenous people to like manage the

1472
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 4: land for future generations in the way that they did

1473
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 4: for millennia before this massive extinction event, the European colonization.

1474
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:09,640
Speaker 10: I hope nobody thinks they privately owned buffalo flock is

1475
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:10,599
Speaker 10: the same as land back.

1476
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:14,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I hope not. I really hope not. Like did

1477
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 4: you see like when the folk Pet tribes were like

1478
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 4: killing some of their buffalo to feed people during the

1479
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 4: last shutdown.

1480
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 5: I do remember that. Yeah.

1481
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:25,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's kind of a strange reaction being like, oh,

1482
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 4: how sad that they have to to kill their buffalo, Like.

1483
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:30,840
Speaker 5: But that's what the buffalo for.

1484
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 4: Yes, so it's why they the buffalo are there of

1485
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:35,679
Speaker 4: culture can exist and it's.

1486
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 5: Not like a sacred cow situation. Yeah, yeah, it's sacred

1487
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 5: to them, but not in that way.

1488
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like it's sacred to them and it is sustaining

1489
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 4: to them, right, And like that's my understanding at least,

1490
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 4: and having spent a little bit of time with people

1491
01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 4: who have that relationship to other animals like that, when

1492
01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 4: I think about like which inference in their caribou, like

1493
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,000
Speaker 4: they will fight as hard as they can to preserve

1494
01:13:59,760 --> 01:14:02,880
Speaker 4: their cariboo herd, but that's not like a different thing

1495
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:04,760
Speaker 4: from them. They also hunt the caribou and eat it.

1496
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:05,080
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1497
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:08,679
Speaker 10: Part of the natural relationship with them is sometimes eating them.

1498
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:11,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like they did in that way, the culture

1499
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:14,559
Speaker 4: is sustained by the ongoing presence of the animal right.

1500
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:16,600
Speaker 10: I guess, I guess we just I don't know the

1501
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 10: Western mind. We can only hunt something to extinction, we

1502
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 10: can't contemplate.

1503
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:23,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, wanting to coexist with it.

1504
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:26,559
Speaker 10: A symbiotic coexistence where we eat them sometimes, but we

1505
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:28,000
Speaker 10: don't want them all to be dead.

1506
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:30,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, We're not just going to be like, okay,

1507
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:32,720
Speaker 4: this that was from while it lasted on to the

1508
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,800
Speaker 4: next one. Yeah, I just do the next species now. So,

1509
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:38,640
Speaker 4: like people should be worried about this. This is not

1510
01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:41,080
Speaker 4: the end of bison on public lands. It's not the

1511
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:45,639
Speaker 4: end of bison on tribal lands. But this productivity standard

1512
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 4: should really concern people. BLM is the biggest public lands

1513
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 4: management agency. Sometimes it gets jokingly called the Bureau of

1514
01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 4: Livestock and Mining, which is pretty much the way it's going, right, right, So.

1515
01:14:57,120 --> 01:15:00,360
Speaker 5: Is there a legal definition being used here, like something

1516
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:03,559
Speaker 5: from a statute or something from a contract, like, what

1517
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:05,599
Speaker 5: is this? What is productive use?

1518
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 4: That's a productive use is a standard that they have

1519
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:12,679
Speaker 4: derived from the term domestic livestock in the Tailor Grazing Act.

1520
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:17,919
Speaker 10: And then how is domestic livestock legally defined any domesticated animal?

1521
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, well they are claiming that it is domestic livestock

1522
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:22,480
Speaker 4: if it is productive.

1523
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:25,800
Speaker 10: But this is circular, right, So productive use means livestock

1524
01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:27,480
Speaker 10: and livestock have to be productive.

1525
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:31,400
Speaker 5: But what is productive? It's live stock? Livestock is productively Like, well.

1526
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:33,439
Speaker 4: There has to be like a cash exchange, I guess

1527
01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 4: like they're saying that it has to be raised for sale.

1528
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 10: But then like, how exactly are we measuring? That doesn't

1529
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:39,720
Speaker 10: have to be profitable?

1530
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:43,040
Speaker 4: Does it have to be extracting the maximum output out

1531
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:44,320
Speaker 4: of that given area of land?

1532
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:46,839
Speaker 5: Do you have to be exporting something?

1533
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 9: Like?

1534
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:49,040
Speaker 10: Do you have to have a government can like what

1535
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 10: is the threshold here for what's productive?

1536
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:56,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, APR has given by some meat to food banks before,

1537
01:15:57,080 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 4: so apparently that doesn't meet the standard.

1538
01:15:59,479 --> 01:15:59,639
Speaker 7: Right.

1539
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:03,640
Speaker 10: So without without a hard and fast, like clear written standard,

1540
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:07,360
Speaker 10: this is the government just deciding who does or doesn't

1541
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:08,759
Speaker 10: get to do business with them?

1542
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, and who who does and doesn't have access. There

1543
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:16,320
Speaker 4: are issues, big issues with grais and cattle on public land, ecological, social,

1544
01:16:16,520 --> 01:16:19,599
Speaker 4: climate change, animal welfare. There are issues, many of them.

1545
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:22,120
Speaker 4: But the idea that if you wanted to, let's say,

1546
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:25,240
Speaker 4: if you wanted to raise fewer cattle and do what

1547
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:29,280
Speaker 4: they call regenerative ranching to something more sustainable, you couldn't

1548
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 4: because it's not as productive. It's bonkers right on public land.

1549
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:36,360
Speaker 10: Like right, so now you lose, you lose your government

1550
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 10: contract because you tried you try something, try something new,

1551
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:40,000
Speaker 10: try something sustainable.

1552
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:42,120
Speaker 4: You tried to be too nice to the land that

1553
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:43,679
Speaker 4: supposedly belongs to everyone.

1554
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 10: So in order in order to use this land that

1555
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 10: is supposed to be for you know, public preservation, you

1556
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:51,519
Speaker 10: have to be as exploitative and destructive as possible.

1557
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:54,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, a great, thank you, Doug Burgham.

1558
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:56,880
Speaker 4: Yeah cool. Are we going to extend this to Like

1559
01:16:57,160 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 4: I'm not as familiar with mining, but you can stake

1560
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 4: a claim on public land, right, lots of most mining claims.

1561
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:04,519
Speaker 4: I imagine a state on public land and you can

1562
01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:07,400
Speaker 4: you can exploit that claim. Is it now going to

1563
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:09,840
Speaker 4: be the case that like you have to exploit that

1564
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:12,280
Speaker 4: claim and like if we don't have this standard of

1565
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:15,880
Speaker 4: maintaining the land, and that it said it's gone now

1566
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:18,160
Speaker 4: and that the only standard is it has to be

1567
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:19,320
Speaker 4: as productive as possible.

1568
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:22,760
Speaker 10: Then how is that land management? This is the Bureau

1569
01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:23,640
Speaker 10: of Land Exploitation.

1570
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:26,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, the BLM is just and I know the BLM

1571
01:17:26,320 --> 01:17:28,639
Speaker 4: has done this for many cents. This isn't then this

1572
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:30,040
Speaker 4: isn't new for the BLM.

1573
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:34,520
Speaker 5: But having officially rescinded their rule on conserving the land.

1574
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:37,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, then this could be really bad. Right, Like the

1575
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 4: massive chunks of the West are managed by the BLM,

1576
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:44,639
Speaker 4: and like the idea that they're only going to allow

1577
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 4: it the most productive uses or force the most productive uses.

1578
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:50,679
Speaker 4: Like this is one of the many ways that Trump

1579
01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:54,559
Speaker 4: administration is attacking public lands that people should talk.

1580
01:17:54,479 --> 01:17:57,720
Speaker 10: About more and again without adequately defining it. I just

1581
01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 10: feel like this is another vector for is handing out

1582
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:04,519
Speaker 10: government resources to donors allies.

1583
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:08,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like without any change in statute. Right, this

1584
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:13,040
Speaker 4: is the law that Bergham is reinterpreting. Here, You've got

1585
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:15,280
Speaker 4: the nineteen thirty four Tailor Grazing Act and then like

1586
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:17,960
Speaker 4: there's a nineteen seventy six law that that and the

1587
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:20,960
Speaker 4: statutory language is that the BLM should manage the land

1588
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:25,320
Speaker 4: for multiple use and sustained yield. That is broad, but

1589
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 4: like we are not going to get this Congress to

1590
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 4: pass a better one.

1591
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 10: No, And if anybody does try to take this to court,

1592
01:18:31,080 --> 01:18:33,280
Speaker 10: the Supreme Court will just say, no, you have to

1593
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 10: strip mine the field.

1594
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:36,400
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, like your only choice.

1595
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:39,280
Speaker 5: You have to frack, even whether or not you have

1596
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:40,120
Speaker 5: to set up tracking.

1597
01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 4: You're dure like obliged to do feed lands even though

1598
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 4: you can't. Like, it's just like a really concerning area

1599
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:52,720
Speaker 4: that I think has been approached kind of almost tokenistically

1600
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:56,719
Speaker 4: in some of the press. Like this is bad for everyone,

1601
01:18:56,800 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 4: right if the government is saying you can only ranch

1602
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:01,840
Speaker 4: this way on a big pland, like that's also bad

1603
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 4: for ranches all over the west, right, I don't think

1604
01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:09,160
Speaker 4: that like the way that we restore our land to

1605
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:13,320
Speaker 4: its custodians and to like its natural state. It's big

1606
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:16,880
Speaker 4: private parks like APR is like a private national park, right,

1607
01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:18,800
Speaker 4: Like you can walk through lots of it, you can

1608
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:21,840
Speaker 4: hunt on it like public land. Some places you can

1609
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:25,559
Speaker 4: camp on it. They have dispersed camping. That's nice. I

1610
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:28,040
Speaker 4: don't believe in the benevolence of the rich, because like,

1611
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,200
Speaker 4: look how we fucking got here, right.

1612
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:32,680
Speaker 10: But that that half measure was the best thing we

1613
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:36,000
Speaker 10: had at this moment, and now it's illegal.

1614
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:39,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, now it's And like I'm glad that these rich

1615
01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 4: people are putting buffalo on the landscape because we need

1616
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:44,040
Speaker 4: more of them. Like, if we're ever going to have

1617
01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:48,320
Speaker 4: truly wild herds, we need that genetic diversity. Right, They've

1618
01:19:48,360 --> 01:19:51,120
Speaker 4: been through horrible genetic bottlenecks in getting up to this

1619
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:52,120
Speaker 4: half a million number.

1620
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:54,360
Speaker 10: Right, It's not like we can just try again later,

1621
01:19:54,520 --> 01:19:56,280
Speaker 10: let it, let the number drop back down. We'll try

1622
01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:58,880
Speaker 10: again in a hundred years, Like at some point we've

1623
01:19:58,880 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 10: missed the boat.

1624
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:03,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and as the climate continues to change, we have

1625
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:06,760
Speaker 4: to think about how land management, food procurement plays a

1626
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:11,839
Speaker 4: role in our future. And like this is the opposite

1627
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:14,160
Speaker 4: of doing that. And I think people ought to be

1628
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:17,760
Speaker 4: concerned about that. There's not much you could do about it,

1629
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:20,840
Speaker 4: Like it's these people who weren't elected ruling on things

1630
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:24,519
Speaker 4: that are not saturtary. But it is something that I

1631
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:27,600
Speaker 4: think people ought to add to that many concerns with

1632
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:29,200
Speaker 4: the Trump administration.

1633
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 7: I guess he more worried.

1634
01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know. I don't want you to be

1635
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:33,439
Speaker 4: more worried. I want you to go outside, like see

1636
01:20:33,439 --> 01:20:34,759
Speaker 4: a buffalo. It will be nice.

1637
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 10: That would at least know that I don't know the

1638
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 10: future existence of the world as we know it is

1639
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 10: being intact from all sides, even from directions I wasn't

1640
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:46,439
Speaker 10: aware of. Yeah, there are attack vectors that I just

1641
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 10: had not considered.

1642
01:20:48,040 --> 01:20:49,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a new and exciting way that they're

1643
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:53,840
Speaker 4: making tit worse. So yeah, I hope you enjoyed a

1644
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:56,559
Speaker 4: little diversion about buffalo. Next week, I want to talk

1645
01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:59,320
Speaker 4: about bears. I want to tear the bears.

1646
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:02,120
Speaker 10: I'm excited to learn about because I've seen a bear

1647
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:04,880
Speaker 10: and I know they live in the United States unlike

1648
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:05,280
Speaker 10: they do.

1649
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:11,360
Speaker 5: I guess I was thinking of like spring Bok. Maybe

1650
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:15,160
Speaker 5: they kind of they look like that in it.

1651
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 4: M I don't know what.

1652
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:20,920
Speaker 10: I've been to a zoo and big of antelope type

1653
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:22,400
Speaker 10: animals there, so I just I don't know.

1654
01:21:22,439 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 5: Everything at the zoo must be from far away.

1655
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:25,120
Speaker 9: Now.

1656
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:28,360
Speaker 4: The prong horn is like it's a there's a there's

1657
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:30,719
Speaker 4: a cool zoo. I'm not a big zoo guy.

1658
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:32,320
Speaker 5: You've got to make sure it's one of one of

1659
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 5: those ones that a credited zoo.

1660
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:34,880
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1661
01:21:35,200 --> 01:21:38,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's one in Palm Springs where you can see

1662
01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:40,320
Speaker 4: I've seen big hon I've been fortunate enough to see

1663
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:44,080
Speaker 4: big horn sheep in their natural habitat. But for most people,

1664
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:46,080
Speaker 4: your best chance, again they look at the big horn

1665
01:21:46,120 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 4: sheep is to get to that one in Palm Springs.

1666
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:51,600
Speaker 4: When you see a prong horn just pronging, you know,

1667
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:55,920
Speaker 4: like do they like yeah, they bounce al they got

1668
01:21:55,960 --> 01:21:59,559
Speaker 4: those giant tendons right that they buffalo can go thirty

1669
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:01,520
Speaker 4: five miles an hour and they're faster than a buffalo.

1670
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:03,240
Speaker 10: So like, I don't want to see a buffalo go

1671
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 10: thirty five miles an hour. I don't want to see that.

1672
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:08,000
Speaker 4: They can be it. Yeah, it's like seeing a mini

1673
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:10,840
Speaker 4: van like doing muscle cars. Shit, you know, like they

1674
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:13,559
Speaker 4: can jump, they could. They have this incredible buffalo can

1675
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:17,080
Speaker 4: like jump over stuff. They're they're actually very nimble despite

1676
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 4: looking you know, like a like a cinder block.

1677
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:21,880
Speaker 5: They're so cute that I want to touch one so bad,

1678
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:22,439
Speaker 5: but I don't.

1679
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:25,840
Speaker 4: Want to get vice against it. Yeah, bricellosis is going

1680
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:28,520
Speaker 4: to be a long term issue. It's yeah, it's the trampoline.

1681
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:31,559
Speaker 4: There'll be a short term issue for you. So yeah,

1682
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:35,360
Speaker 4: don't touch buffalo, don't touch them. Send send Molly pictures

1683
01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:36,879
Speaker 4: of your prong horning counters.

1684
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:39,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, if you have seen a wild animal in the

1685
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 10: United States, let me see it.

1686
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 5: I don't know we had those.

1687
01:22:43,080 --> 01:22:47,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, can in Molly's replies with your raccoons in your trash.

1688
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:49,439
Speaker 5: Raccoons I know about I've seen it, right, Yeah, yeah

1689
01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:50,400
Speaker 5: it was.

1690
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:54,640
Speaker 10: I was in South Korea many years ago at a

1691
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:56,880
Speaker 10: theme park that had a zoo in it. I don't know,

1692
01:22:56,880 --> 01:23:00,400
Speaker 10: it's a while ago. Perfect in the zoo area, there

1693
01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:03,800
Speaker 10: was this huge display. Everyone was crowded around this very

1694
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:07,120
Speaker 10: cool zoo animal was raccoons.

1695
01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:10,880
Speaker 4: Oh really, they don't have them. Yeah, they play such

1696
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 4: a cultural role in the American cultural hegemonies.

1697
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 10: I don't want to see a raccoon, but I guess yeah,

1698
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:18,879
Speaker 10: if you can't see one, that's an intriguing get.

1699
01:23:18,760 --> 01:23:21,800
Speaker 4: So, yeah, I remember, I like, my initial engagement with

1700
01:23:21,920 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 4: raccoons was through the movie Pokahontists, which is a whole

1701
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:28,240
Speaker 4: other ship. So when I first saw a raccoon, I

1702
01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:30,559
Speaker 4: wanted to visit it, right, because you know, they have biscuits.

1703
01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:33,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, you thought it was gonna be like a chatty yeah.

1704
01:23:33,520 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 7: Like a little friend.

1705
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:39,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was very aggressive, be unnecessarily aggressive a little friend. Yeah,

1706
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:41,519
Speaker 4: I was approaching in a spirit of kindness. I think,

1707
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,360
Speaker 4: like generally, I also have been victimized by a skunk

1708
01:23:44,439 --> 01:23:46,320
Speaker 4: for several years now, so I think maybe I just

1709
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:49,400
Speaker 4: that's not a friend. No, it's fine.

1710
01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:51,559
Speaker 10: Those ladies on TikTok that have pet ones will tell

1711
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:52,599
Speaker 10: you that is not a friend.

1712
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:56,280
Speaker 4: Apparently they're very nice if they like, can be encouraged

1713
01:23:56,320 --> 01:23:57,760
Speaker 4: not to. I don't know, I don't think it. Don't please,

1714
01:23:57,760 --> 01:23:59,679
Speaker 4: don't capture a skunk, can bring it home with you,

1715
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:01,800
Speaker 4: like it's skunk wants to live on its own. But yeah,

1716
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:05,000
Speaker 4: this one skunk will find me every time I'm going

1717
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:06,639
Speaker 4: through that, like I'll be coming out at night.

1718
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:08,719
Speaker 5: He's thinking about you.

1719
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:11,920
Speaker 4: On my head. It's like a fucking Exocet missile. I

1720
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:14,559
Speaker 4: see him coming from like two hundred yards away.

1721
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:16,200
Speaker 5: It's the fucking guy again.

1722
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:18,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's pissed at me. I'm pissed at him. He

1723
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:20,479
Speaker 4: turns around, he squares up.

1724
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:22,160
Speaker 5: Did you get got No?

1725
01:24:22,160 --> 01:24:24,360
Speaker 4: No, he'll show his ass to me and then I'll

1726
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:27,320
Speaker 4: I'll just kind of give him a wide berth and think, oh,

1727
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:28,680
Speaker 4: that was unusual, seeing it's gounn to be that, And

1728
01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:30,120
Speaker 4: then two weeks later, there he is again.

1729
01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:32,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's waiting for you. He does not want you

1730
01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:33,160
Speaker 5: to come back.

1731
01:24:33,240 --> 01:24:36,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, he doesn't. He's also trying to like exercise

1732
01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:38,759
Speaker 4: control over the public land and aggressive.

1733
01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:41,400
Speaker 5: He's doing land management and you're not part of it.

1734
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:44,439
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, he's returning it to its natural state by

1735
01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:46,840
Speaker 4: keeping European people off the land, which I guess is

1736
01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:48,600
Speaker 4: honestly valid, respectable.

1737
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:51,080
Speaker 5: He's heard horror stories from his great grandparents.

1738
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:53,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can respect that night and now I think

1739
01:24:53,240 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 4: of it in that way. But yeah, I've got some

1740
01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:59,000
Speaker 4: good pictures of the back end of him. Well after

1741
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:00,880
Speaker 4: he kept doing it, I thought, I'm as well photograph

1742
01:25:00,960 --> 01:25:04,760
Speaker 4: and document this tendency. So yeah, I have them. I'm

1743
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:06,679
Speaker 4: going to use them for some kind of greetings card

1744
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:07,960
Speaker 4: or something they haven't yet.

1745
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:09,599
Speaker 5: Perfect with the family Christmas card, I think.

1746
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:14,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just keep people on their toes. We've rambled enough, okay, Yeah,

1747
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:17,280
Speaker 4: please send us your wildlife pictures. We would love to

1748
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:17,720
Speaker 4: see them.

1749
01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 5: And next week bears bears.

1750
01:25:20,280 --> 01:25:21,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, money before we go. Do you want to plug

1751
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:24,799
Speaker 4: your podcast about people who probably don't engage with animals

1752
01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:25,280
Speaker 4: very much?

1753
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:27,479
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, you can listen to my show A weird

1754
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:29,600
Speaker 10: Little Guys. I don't think there's been an animal in

1755
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:31,840
Speaker 10: the show in a while. Well, I guess eventually I

1756
01:25:31,880 --> 01:25:34,439
Speaker 10: will get around to those guys that occupied that BLM land.

1757
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:35,840
Speaker 4: But yeah, yeah, that's it.

1758
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:37,120
Speaker 5: But it's that kind of shell.

1759
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:40,559
Speaker 4: Yeah. I bet they love wolves. I bet I bet

1760
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:42,240
Speaker 4: they like think a lot about wolves even though they

1761
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:42,800
Speaker 4: don't see them.

1762
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:45,639
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a guy who had

1763
01:25:46,080 --> 01:25:49,719
Speaker 10: his user name on a Nazi forum was the device

1764
01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:53,080
Speaker 10: a wolf, which is incorrect German for the white wolf.

1765
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:56,920
Speaker 4: Perfectly, they do love wolves, Yeah, yeah, could I guess.

1766
01:25:57,200 --> 01:25:58,520
Speaker 4: Thank you very much, Molly.

1767
01:25:59,080 --> 01:25:59,879
Speaker 5: Thank you, James.

1768
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:15,679
Speaker 7: Welcome to take it out here a podcast where I

1769
01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:19,880
Speaker 7: try to explain economics to you and Molly. I'm your host,

1770
01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:22,760
Speaker 7: Fia Lung, And thank you Molly for agreeing to do this,

1771
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:26,320
Speaker 7: especially on extremely short notice. So I appreciate it.

1772
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:28,840
Speaker 5: I am so excited to struggle to learn.

1773
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:35,320
Speaker 7: So, okay, there's good news and bad news. The good

1774
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:39,040
Speaker 7: news is that the central thing that this episode is about,

1775
01:26:39,439 --> 01:26:44,240
Speaker 7: nominally is a concept called monopsony, and it's actually really easy.

1776
01:26:44,280 --> 01:26:44,320
Speaker 8: No.

1777
01:26:44,439 --> 01:26:46,280
Speaker 10: See you said that. You said that in the work

1778
01:26:46,360 --> 01:26:48,639
Speaker 10: chat earlier. You said monopsy and I was like, oh man,

1779
01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:50,880
Speaker 10: she's so tired. That's not even a word.

1780
01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:54,320
Speaker 7: Well, okay, this actually gets into the thing because this

1781
01:26:54,520 --> 01:26:58,840
Speaker 7: is a word that was made up specifically for this concept. Unfortunately,

1782
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:00,479
Speaker 7: I do also have to do the bad news, which

1783
01:27:00,520 --> 01:27:03,240
Speaker 7: is that to actually understand the history of this, we

1784
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:06,680
Speaker 7: do have to explain stuff that's legitimately very complicated. So

1785
01:27:07,479 --> 01:27:11,559
Speaker 7: I'm locked in. Yay, but okay, okay, monopsony. The hook

1786
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:13,320
Speaker 7: of this, this is part of the reason why you

1787
01:27:13,320 --> 01:27:18,080
Speaker 7: get paid like shit is because of monopsony. So I

1788
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:22,040
Speaker 7: first was interested in writing about this specifically for this

1789
01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:28,759
Speaker 7: show because weirdly NPR's Planet Money Like discovered the concept

1790
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:32,240
Speaker 7: of monopsony and did it a couple of pretty interesting

1791
01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:37,679
Speaker 7: pieces on the history of the concept. And the place

1792
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:41,840
Speaker 7: that they go with it is they start talking about

1793
01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:46,080
Speaker 7: one of my favorite economists, Joan Robinson, who is really

1794
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:48,120
Speaker 7: good and we're gonna spend most of this episode talking

1795
01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:51,200
Speaker 7: about her. But one of the stories that they tell

1796
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:54,479
Speaker 7: this is a very famous story in the circles of

1797
01:27:54,479 --> 01:27:58,880
Speaker 7: economists that I'm around, I guess is about her sitting

1798
01:27:58,920 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 7: down with like a British class system inventing the term monopsony.

1799
01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:04,000
Speaker 7: So okay, what is what is.

1800
01:28:03,960 --> 01:28:06,639
Speaker 5: Monopson it's one something mono.

1801
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:10,840
Speaker 7: You know what a monopoly is. So monopoly is when

1802
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:13,920
Speaker 7: one seller, right, So okay, it's like, yeah, you have

1803
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:16,240
Speaker 7: I don't know, you have like Google, which is a

1804
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:19,640
Speaker 7: monopoly on like search engines. Right, And you know, monopoly

1805
01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:22,720
Speaker 7: doesn't necessarily and what we'll be getting into this more

1806
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:24,439
Speaker 7: in a second, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that

1807
01:28:24,479 --> 01:28:28,440
Speaker 7: there's literally only one right. But you know, like the US,

1808
01:28:28,439 --> 01:28:31,880
Speaker 7: like every market you are dealing with in the United

1809
01:28:31,920 --> 01:28:35,519
Speaker 7: States is some kind of monopoly where you know, sometimes

1810
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:38,320
Speaker 7: there's like a big three, or sometimes there's like two,

1811
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 7: or sometimes there's maybe five.

1812
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:42,720
Speaker 10: Or sometimes it's quite literal, like we only have one

1813
01:28:42,760 --> 01:28:43,960
Speaker 10: power company in Virginia.

1814
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:48,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you know, And sometimes monopolies are deliberately set

1815
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:50,479
Speaker 7: up by the state, right where sometimes you know, the

1816
01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:52,000
Speaker 7: state a state would just be like, yeah, fuck it,

1817
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:53,479
Speaker 7: there's only one power company here.

1818
01:28:53,720 --> 01:28:56,920
Speaker 5: Oh no, it's a private company. It's a private company.

1819
01:28:56,720 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 7: Yeah right, yeah, But sometimes private companies will be hand

1820
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:02,479
Speaker 7: at monopolies like this, right, Utility companies are a thing

1821
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:04,599
Speaker 7: where it does kind of make sense because having two

1822
01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:07,639
Speaker 7: companies setting up rival electrical grids is like a nightmare.

1823
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:09,760
Speaker 5: But well, that's why the state should do it.

1824
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:12,760
Speaker 7: Yeah. Well it's like it's like, yeah, this is the

1825
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:16,160
Speaker 7: issue though, right, And this is why monopoly in theory

1826
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:19,160
Speaker 7: is like a thing that economists are not supposed to like,

1827
01:29:19,280 --> 01:29:23,360
Speaker 7: because monopoly screws up the sort of like perfect competition

1828
01:29:23,479 --> 01:29:26,880
Speaker 7: between all of these one million different companies that's supposed

1829
01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:28,920
Speaker 7: to like make your life good because they're all forced

1830
01:29:28,920 --> 01:29:32,240
Speaker 7: to sell everything at like the lowest possible price because

1831
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 7: they have to outcompete everyone else. And it's like all

1832
01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:36,920
Speaker 7: of this stuff. But then if you have one monopoly,

1833
01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:38,960
Speaker 7: they can charge you whatever the fuck price they want

1834
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 7: because there's only one of them, and the alternatives are

1835
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:42,200
Speaker 7: to eat shit.

1836
01:29:42,280 --> 01:29:46,400
Speaker 10: Or like like Amazon choking out. It was one hundred diapers, right.

1837
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:49,200
Speaker 10: It was a diaper company that offered like affordable order diapers,

1838
01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:54,000
Speaker 10: and the yeah undercut them really hard concentrated period of time,

1839
01:29:54,400 --> 01:29:56,720
Speaker 10: so they went out of business and they jacked with

1840
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:57,639
Speaker 10: the prices on dipers.

1841
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:00,639
Speaker 7: Yep, yep. This is basically just what the modern tech

1842
01:30:00,640 --> 01:30:04,519
Speaker 7: economy is is that some company will come in with

1843
01:30:04,640 --> 01:30:07,559
Speaker 7: like one hundred billion dollars worth of tech money. Ex

1844
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:09,519
Speaker 7: there were a bunch of ride share wars in India

1845
01:30:09,600 --> 01:30:11,759
Speaker 7: over this, where like all these ride share companies were

1846
01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:15,400
Speaker 7: basically giving people for like really really low cost rides.

1847
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:17,439
Speaker 7: I mean, they're obviously still screwing the drivers, but like

1848
01:30:17,520 --> 01:30:20,840
Speaker 7: oh yeah, naturally, yeah, yeah, and so they were just

1849
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:22,240
Speaker 7: trying to like edge of when I was out of

1850
01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:23,640
Speaker 7: the market so that they could take control of it

1851
01:30:23,680 --> 01:30:25,639
Speaker 7: and raise the prices and stuff eventually.

1852
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:29,320
Speaker 10: Because it's like, you know, the capitalism enthusiast likes to

1853
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:32,719
Speaker 10: imagine that the economy is like you know, Darwinian evolution,

1854
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:36,160
Speaker 10: survival of the fittest, right, we evolve and compete and

1855
01:30:36,200 --> 01:30:40,120
Speaker 10: the best man wins. But actually it's more like intentionally

1856
01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:42,959
Speaker 10: introducing mongooses to the islands of Hawaii.

1857
01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:47,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's yeah, this is an evolution. You just introduce

1858
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:49,719
Speaker 5: a giant weasel that aid all the bird eggs.

1859
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:51,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, right. And it's like, you know, if you look

1860
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:54,479
Speaker 7: at how capitalism spreads historically, it's it's not even like

1861
01:30:54,520 --> 01:30:59,000
Speaker 7: capitalism doesn't outproduce other like economic systems usually what it

1862
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:01,680
Speaker 7: does is, like, you know, there's this line in the

1863
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:04,519
Speaker 7: Communist Manifesto that I think Marx was extremely wrong about.

1864
01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 7: We're just talking about like like trade is the cannon

1865
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:10,799
Speaker 7: that will bring down Chinese walls. And he's talking about

1866
01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:14,599
Speaker 7: like free trade will like destroyed China's trade bearers. It's like, well, no,

1867
01:31:15,160 --> 01:31:18,479
Speaker 7: like China's trade barriers were brought down by the Opium Wars,

1868
01:31:18,520 --> 01:31:22,640
Speaker 7: like the British Navy like sailed in and like besieged

1869
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:26,800
Speaker 7: the capital. Like you know, but when people talk about monopolies,

1870
01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:31,439
Speaker 7: they're talking about selling goods right right. And what Chillan

1871
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:37,599
Speaker 7: Robinson realizes very quickly is that hold on, this is

1872
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:41,000
Speaker 7: also true for employers, right if you are trying to

1873
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:46,720
Speaker 7: find a fucking job right under sort of like the

1874
01:31:47,360 --> 01:31:50,759
Speaker 7: models of perfect competition that like neoclassical economics, the economics

1875
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:55,280
Speaker 7: that like you learned in school, they just normally assume that, oh, yeah,

1876
01:31:55,280 --> 01:31:57,639
Speaker 7: you can just switch jobs really easily, so obviously companies

1877
01:31:57,680 --> 01:31:58,559
Speaker 7: have to pay you.

1878
01:31:58,439 --> 01:32:01,920
Speaker 10: Right, But in most towns there's one major employer who

1879
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:03,120
Speaker 10: kind of sets the bar.

1880
01:32:03,360 --> 01:32:05,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, like here it's UVA.

1881
01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:08,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, like it's Walgreens or like Walmart, and like if

1882
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 7: you ever had to find a job, Like you understand

1883
01:32:12,160 --> 01:32:13,000
Speaker 7: how this works.

1884
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:16,640
Speaker 5: I actually haven't, but I understand in the theory.

1885
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:20,439
Speaker 7: To the listener, you've you've had to find a job.

1886
01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:21,160
Speaker 7: Here's you're speaking to.

1887
01:32:21,240 --> 01:32:23,720
Speaker 5: You're speaking to the only person who's never applied for

1888
01:32:23,760 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 5: the job.

1889
01:32:25,600 --> 01:32:27,639
Speaker 7: We literally never applied for a job.

1890
01:32:28,320 --> 01:32:31,960
Speaker 5: It's a complicated situation. Yeah, I've never Like, oh wow,

1891
01:32:32,240 --> 01:32:32,760
Speaker 5: good for you.

1892
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:36,400
Speaker 7: I love this for you. This rules for everyone else. Yeah,

1893
01:32:36,439 --> 01:32:39,639
Speaker 7: Like it's really obvious that you know there exists conditions

1894
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:43,000
Speaker 7: where you have monopolies but for like hiring people. So

1895
01:32:43,120 --> 01:32:46,559
Speaker 7: Joan Robinson like at this meeting with this classes coins

1896
01:32:46,560 --> 01:32:50,080
Speaker 7: the term monopsony to be like, okay, there's one seller.

1897
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:53,080
Speaker 10: Okay, I'm usually against a neologism, but I understand the

1898
01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:53,800
Speaker 10: need for this word.

1899
01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:56,120
Speaker 5: I'm on board. Yeah, I'm on board with Joanne.

1900
01:32:56,680 --> 01:32:59,800
Speaker 7: It's a good word. She she's really cool. Yeah. I

1901
01:32:59,880 --> 01:33:03,840
Speaker 7: I spread mentioned the caveat here, which is she does

1902
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:08,280
Speaker 7: do the like classic nineteen fifties communist thing of like

1903
01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:11,400
Speaker 7: going to China and then getting led around on like

1904
01:33:11,439 --> 01:33:13,920
Speaker 7: state sponsored tours and then coming back and assuming you

1905
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:18,040
Speaker 7: understand what's happening in communist China and that didn't go great,

1906
01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:20,200
Speaker 7: but you know, a lot the rest of her work

1907
01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:24,439
Speaker 7: is really good. And this is kind of where Planning

1908
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:31,120
Speaker 7: Money does a really interesting history skip, where in their

1909
01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:34,160
Speaker 7: version of the story they go oh yeah, and then

1910
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:37,160
Speaker 7: everyone just kind of ignored it until recently it got

1911
01:33:37,200 --> 01:33:39,599
Speaker 7: picked back up by these economists who were like, wow,

1912
01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:41,800
Speaker 7: we did peer reviewed research and we found out that, like,

1913
01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:45,519
Speaker 7: it turns out that yeah, actually there isn't perfect competition

1914
01:33:45,560 --> 01:33:47,920
Speaker 7: in the labor market and that yeah, labor markets are

1915
01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:49,920
Speaker 7: controlled by these monopolies.

1916
01:33:50,400 --> 01:33:53,599
Speaker 10: And I guess you have to do studies to prove things.

1917
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:55,000
Speaker 10: You can't just vibe it out.

1918
01:33:55,040 --> 01:33:57,280
Speaker 5: But I would say just the general vibe like I

1919
01:33:57,280 --> 01:34:00,679
Speaker 5: could have told you that, I told you that, Mollie.

1920
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:04,559
Speaker 7: Okay, I have such bad news for you, which is

1921
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:08,240
Speaker 7: we are going to meet the person in this story

1922
01:34:08,400 --> 01:34:11,160
Speaker 7: whose idea it was to be like, hey, we should

1923
01:34:11,200 --> 01:34:14,280
Speaker 7: like figure out how the economy works using data.

1924
01:34:14,400 --> 01:34:16,200
Speaker 5: That was a new concept for them.

1925
01:34:16,320 --> 01:34:20,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, was invented by a guy. We're good to

1926
01:34:20,479 --> 01:34:22,560
Speaker 7: get to the story of the invention.

1927
01:34:22,439 --> 01:34:24,599
Speaker 5: Of and it was in like nineteen eighty seven.

1928
01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:28,240
Speaker 7: This is a sign I got. It was like the

1929
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:31,320
Speaker 7: thirties nineteen thirties when we invented this.

1930
01:34:31,439 --> 01:34:33,679
Speaker 5: It was in two thousand and four they brought math

1931
01:34:33,720 --> 01:34:34,200
Speaker 5: into it.

1932
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:37,920
Speaker 7: Oh god. One of my absolute favorite stories of all

1933
01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:39,840
Speaker 7: time is, like, you know, in like the nineties, there

1934
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:42,479
Speaker 7: was like the craze over chaos theory, which I think

1935
01:34:42,479 --> 01:34:44,759
Speaker 7: the only artifact of that is like the chaos theory

1936
01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:47,960
Speaker 7: guy in Jurassic Park, one of my classes, Wings and

1937
01:34:48,000 --> 01:34:50,240
Speaker 7: all these things happened. Like a chaos theory is it's

1938
01:34:50,280 --> 01:34:53,840
Speaker 7: a it's a like a genuinely very interesting math concept.

1939
01:34:54,080 --> 01:34:56,920
Speaker 7: But the thing about chaos theory is that it only

1940
01:34:56,960 --> 01:34:59,559
Speaker 7: applies to things that are third order equations, a.

1941
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:02,160
Speaker 5: Thing I definitely know what that is.

1942
01:35:02,360 --> 01:35:04,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, we could go off in a tangent on this,

1943
01:35:04,120 --> 01:35:06,000
Speaker 7: but I'm just I'm just gonna tell the Econ show. Yes,

1944
01:35:07,240 --> 01:35:08,920
Speaker 7: so everyone economics to me was like, oh my god,

1945
01:35:08,920 --> 01:35:10,639
Speaker 7: there's this hot topic. But the problem is it doesn't

1946
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:12,320
Speaker 7: apply to the economic stuff people were doing in the

1947
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 7: nineties because they don't use third order equations. They only

1948
01:35:14,479 --> 01:35:17,479
Speaker 7: use second order ones because they're dumbasses. This is like

1949
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:19,000
Speaker 7: one of the trends of the show is that the

1950
01:35:19,000 --> 01:35:22,280
Speaker 7: people who do mainstream economics are extremely dumb.

1951
01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 10: And I've always had that feeling, but because I don't

1952
01:35:25,040 --> 01:35:27,120
Speaker 10: understand the economy, it's hard for me to be sure.

1953
01:35:27,720 --> 01:35:31,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, well it's it's because it's ideologically motivated, right, you

1954
01:35:31,479 --> 01:35:34,000
Speaker 7: know the reason that you study economics in high school?

1955
01:35:34,200 --> 01:35:35,880
Speaker 5: Who studies economics in high school?

1956
01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:38,479
Speaker 7: I didn't know there are like economics classes in high school, right,

1957
01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:40,679
Speaker 7: like that? Right? Sorry when I say studies, like yeah,

1958
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:43,400
Speaker 7: like you had to take an econo great school. Yeah,

1959
01:35:43,720 --> 01:35:47,200
Speaker 7: the reason there are economics classes in high schools is

1960
01:35:47,240 --> 01:35:50,040
Speaker 7: not to teach people economics. It's specific it was specifically

1961
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:53,759
Speaker 7: designed as an anti communist thing to like teach kids

1962
01:35:53,760 --> 01:35:58,080
Speaker 7: how capitalism really works through like again a model where

1963
01:35:58,280 --> 01:36:01,960
Speaker 7: they don't teach you that monopolies exist, and you know, obviously,

1964
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:05,000
Speaker 7: like some of this has been incorporated into more modern stuff,

1965
01:36:05,040 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 7: like the cause of a monopsony like kind of has

1966
01:36:08,280 --> 01:36:12,439
Speaker 7: entered into the lexicon of like the economics you get

1967
01:36:12,439 --> 01:36:15,040
Speaker 7: taught as like a little tiny baby child, which is

1968
01:36:15,400 --> 01:36:18,320
Speaker 7: not actually economics. It's literally propaganda. That's what it was

1969
01:36:18,320 --> 01:36:18,840
Speaker 7: designed to be.

1970
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:21,160
Speaker 10: I mean, how fun to get to pretend to be

1971
01:36:21,240 --> 01:36:23,920
Speaker 10: a scientist when you don't do real math and really

1972
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:25,120
Speaker 10: you're just a propagandist.

1973
01:36:25,880 --> 01:36:27,760
Speaker 7: Oh, it's so fun. It's so fun. One of the

1974
01:36:27,760 --> 01:36:29,839
Speaker 7: other things like if if you're ever like in university

1975
01:36:29,880 --> 01:36:32,679
Speaker 7: settings and you want to just like listen to someone

1976
01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:34,960
Speaker 7: complain about shit for a while, go talk to the

1977
01:36:35,040 --> 01:36:37,960
Speaker 7: math people about the ship people get Nobel prizes for

1978
01:36:38,040 --> 01:36:40,680
Speaker 7: in economics, where it's like this is like shit that

1979
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:44,439
Speaker 7: like a child who studies mathematics could do. The math

1980
01:36:44,439 --> 01:36:46,479
Speaker 7: doesn't even have a Nobel prize, right if you want

1981
01:36:46,479 --> 01:36:48,200
Speaker 7: to get like a Fields Medal, there's not.

1982
01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:50,599
Speaker 5: Nope, that's so sad for the math guys.

1983
01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:51,400
Speaker 7: Matho doesn't have one.

1984
01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:51,679
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1985
01:36:51,720 --> 01:36:54,160
Speaker 7: Well, and the other thing is econsoable price is fake too.

1986
01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:56,680
Speaker 7: This is this is another thing that's important. It's not

1987
01:36:56,840 --> 01:36:59,519
Speaker 7: one of the prizes that was set down by by Nobel,

1988
01:36:59,720 --> 01:37:02,679
Speaker 7: which like the Nobel prices. They created their own.

1989
01:37:02,640 --> 01:37:04,720
Speaker 5: And the dynamite guy knew what he was doing.

1990
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:08,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, but it's like literally like the Central Bank of

1991
01:37:08,120 --> 01:37:11,559
Speaker 7: Sweden made their own and called it a Nobel and

1992
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:13,639
Speaker 7: it's not a real one. It's a fake one.

1993
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:17,040
Speaker 5: Wait, so you're saying that if we are confident enough.

1994
01:37:16,840 --> 01:37:18,799
Speaker 7: In our assertion, oh, yeah, we could just make a Nobel.

1995
01:37:19,080 --> 01:37:22,640
Speaker 5: We could tell people that we are Nobel Laureates in podcasting.

1996
01:37:22,760 --> 01:37:24,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean as a huge thing. You also have

1997
01:37:24,920 --> 01:37:27,800
Speaker 7: to have an extraordinarily large amount of money to do

1998
01:37:27,920 --> 01:37:30,799
Speaker 7: to do propaganda for this, because the reason this works

1999
01:37:30,840 --> 01:37:32,680
Speaker 7: is that the Nobel Prize in economics is also a

2000
01:37:32,680 --> 01:37:35,280
Speaker 7: propaganda effort, right, And one of the ways you can

2001
01:37:35,320 --> 01:37:37,360
Speaker 7: tell us a propaganda effort is that they didn't give

2002
01:37:37,400 --> 01:37:39,400
Speaker 7: what a Joanne Robinson, who was one of the most

2003
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:41,719
Speaker 7: influential economists who has ever lived.

2004
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:45,920
Speaker 5: Justice for Joanne genuinely like it's it's outrageous.

2005
01:37:46,120 --> 01:37:47,720
Speaker 7: It's just like one of the few things even to

2006
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:49,439
Speaker 7: the people who hate her are like, yeah, no, she

2007
01:37:49,479 --> 01:37:52,000
Speaker 7: should have gotten one because she's one of the people

2008
01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:55,519
Speaker 7: who invents the idea that competition isn't perfect, Like she

2009
01:37:55,720 --> 01:38:00,200
Speaker 7: invents imperfect competition where there's like monopolies and shit, this

2010
01:38:00,240 --> 01:38:02,519
Speaker 7: is all like there's something that's like foundational to like

2011
01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:06,640
Speaker 7: everyone's to some extent understanding of economics, but most of

2012
01:38:06,640 --> 01:38:09,600
Speaker 7: our ideas are completely ignored and saying like monopsony is

2013
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:11,360
Speaker 7: like a thing that you put in textbooks. But then

2014
01:38:11,400 --> 01:38:13,519
Speaker 7: when you're trying to like you know, you're you're an

2015
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:17,960
Speaker 7: economist that like not even like the fucking Heritage Institute

2016
01:38:18,040 --> 01:38:20,360
Speaker 7: or Heritage Foundation or whatever you're at, like a just

2017
01:38:20,360 --> 01:38:22,880
Speaker 7: like a random economics think tank, right, Like you don't

2018
01:38:23,560 --> 01:38:26,439
Speaker 7: take Knopsony into account when you're like, hey, we can't

2019
01:38:26,479 --> 01:38:28,760
Speaker 7: raise the minimum wage because if you raise the minimum wage,

2020
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:31,080
Speaker 7: then everyone's going to get fired. And it turns out

2021
01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:32,599
Speaker 7: to like, well, no, that's not true. And the reason

2022
01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:36,000
Speaker 7: that's not true is because if you assume that neoclassical

2023
01:38:36,040 --> 01:38:40,280
Speaker 7: economics is real, is that companies aren't hiring people at

2024
01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:43,519
Speaker 7: like the lowest possible wage that like that they could

2025
01:38:43,520 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 7: do without someone going to somewhere else. They're hiring them

2026
01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:50,040
Speaker 7: even lower than that because they can suppress the wages

2027
01:38:50,080 --> 01:38:52,639
Speaker 7: because where the fuck else are you going to work? Right, right?

2028
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:56,559
Speaker 10: But also like people like human behavior is not subject

2029
01:38:56,640 --> 01:39:00,520
Speaker 10: to the rules of mathematics in that straightforward kind of way.

2030
01:39:00,680 --> 01:39:03,880
Speaker 7: No, it's very dumb and like because this goes back

2031
01:39:03,920 --> 01:39:05,680
Speaker 7: to something that's important to all of this, which is

2032
01:39:05,680 --> 01:39:09,559
Speaker 7: that like economics as a field is not it's not

2033
01:39:09,640 --> 01:39:12,800
Speaker 7: a science. It doesn't come from science, it comes from

2034
01:39:12,880 --> 01:39:13,960
Speaker 7: moral philosophy.

2035
01:39:14,160 --> 01:39:16,200
Speaker 5: The economy guys they're always saying stuff.

2036
01:39:16,600 --> 01:39:19,320
Speaker 10: They're just like confidently asserting something and showing me a

2037
01:39:19,360 --> 01:39:21,759
Speaker 10: graph that's just like, does not reflect my lived reality

2038
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:22,040
Speaker 10: at all.

2039
01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:23,679
Speaker 5: But they're very confident about the graph.

2040
01:39:24,000 --> 01:39:26,320
Speaker 7: No. Well, and that's the thing because because because it's

2041
01:39:26,320 --> 01:39:27,960
Speaker 7: originally philosophy.

2042
01:39:27,479 --> 01:39:29,800
Speaker 5: It's like, no, the economy is going great. It's like not,

2043
01:39:29,800 --> 01:39:31,200
Speaker 5: we're right, not from not in my house.

2044
01:39:31,720 --> 01:39:34,640
Speaker 7: No, it's like it's fucking bullshit. That's a reflection of

2045
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:38,920
Speaker 7: the fact that economics as a discipline works backwards from

2046
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:41,639
Speaker 7: the way that a science works, which is economics starts

2047
01:39:41,640 --> 01:39:44,080
Speaker 7: out with assumptions about how humans work, right. It starts

2048
01:39:44,080 --> 01:39:46,240
Speaker 7: out with the assumption that, like everyone's like a rationally

2049
01:39:46,760 --> 01:39:51,000
Speaker 7: calculating actor who's like seeking to maximize their own utility.

2050
01:39:51,120 --> 01:39:53,880
Speaker 5: And I've never met that person. Yeah, it's philosophy. I

2051
01:39:54,160 --> 01:39:54,840
Speaker 5: actually no, I.

2052
01:39:54,800 --> 01:39:58,400
Speaker 10: Love maximizing utility. Don't get me started on maximizing my

2053
01:39:58,439 --> 01:39:59,320
Speaker 10: economic utility.

2054
01:39:59,560 --> 01:40:04,559
Speaker 7: It's literally utilitarianism, right. It's not something that's derived from

2055
01:40:04,600 --> 01:40:08,760
Speaker 7: from empirical data. It's it starts with an assumption about

2056
01:40:08,800 --> 01:40:12,240
Speaker 7: how things work and then projects that assumption onto the world.

2057
01:40:12,800 --> 01:40:16,080
Speaker 10: I don't want to be melodramatic, but I'm having a

2058
01:40:16,120 --> 01:40:19,880
Speaker 10: breakthrough here in my understanding of what economics is I

2059
01:40:19,880 --> 01:40:23,240
Speaker 10: thought they were just being dumb before suddenly I see

2060
01:40:23,280 --> 01:40:24,160
Speaker 10: it completely differently.

2061
01:40:24,400 --> 01:40:27,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's ideologically motivated reasons they have. They have a

2062
01:40:27,479 --> 01:40:31,960
Speaker 7: philosophy they've attempting to mathematically define, like project their philosophy

2063
01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:34,800
Speaker 7: onto the world, and it doesn't work very well because

2064
01:40:34,800 --> 01:40:36,680
Speaker 7: it's philosophy. It's not right.

2065
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:39,960
Speaker 10: They're trying to prove a conclusion rather than map reality.

2066
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:43,479
Speaker 7: Yeah, they're going backwards. Yeah, and this is something that

2067
01:40:43,520 --> 01:40:45,320
Speaker 7: we're going to get into in a second. But first

2068
01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:47,519
Speaker 7: we're going to get into are the products and services

2069
01:40:47,560 --> 01:40:49,120
Speaker 7: that support this podcast? Wow?

2070
01:40:49,360 --> 01:40:50,520
Speaker 5: Speaking of the economy.

2071
01:40:50,640 --> 01:41:03,160
Speaker 1: Woo, we are back.

2072
01:41:04,040 --> 01:41:06,720
Speaker 7: So one of the things that's actually interesting about the

2073
01:41:06,760 --> 01:41:12,160
Speaker 7: story of Joan Robinson is that there's a reason why

2074
01:41:12,880 --> 01:41:14,639
Speaker 7: almost no one, I mean, I don't know that people

2075
01:41:14,640 --> 01:41:17,640
Speaker 7: people listening to this podcast have a higher likelihood of

2076
01:41:17,800 --> 01:41:21,040
Speaker 7: knowing who Joan Robinson is than like almost any other

2077
01:41:21,080 --> 01:41:23,120
Speaker 7: group of people on Earth. But like, there's a reason

2078
01:41:23,160 --> 01:41:26,360
Speaker 7: why she's not extremely well known by normal people.

2079
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:28,080
Speaker 5: I'm gonna be so honest with emia.

2080
01:41:28,160 --> 01:41:31,839
Speaker 10: The only economists I know are the ones that Jabier

2081
01:41:31,880 --> 01:41:34,120
Speaker 10: and Malay named his clone dogs after.

2082
01:41:34,960 --> 01:41:36,960
Speaker 7: That makes sense. Well, like people think you've heard of you,

2083
01:41:37,000 --> 01:41:38,320
Speaker 7: like you've heard of like Adam Smith.

2084
01:41:38,520 --> 01:41:40,280
Speaker 5: Right, that's true. That's not one of the clone dogs.

2085
01:41:40,640 --> 01:41:43,280
Speaker 7: John Robinson is an economist who is important enough that

2086
01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:45,200
Speaker 7: like you should know who she is.

2087
01:41:45,280 --> 01:41:46,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, but he would not have named one of the

2088
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:48,280
Speaker 5: clone dogs after her. I think they're I think they're

2089
01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:51,599
Speaker 5: all boys. No, absolutely not. He probably like he would

2090
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:52,280
Speaker 5: chainsaw her.

2091
01:41:52,360 --> 01:41:56,360
Speaker 7: It's bad. But the reason that you don't know who

2092
01:41:56,400 --> 01:41:58,880
Speaker 7: she is, and the reason that Monopsony kind of like

2093
01:41:59,439 --> 01:42:02,240
Speaker 7: sat in the closet of mansion economics until people started

2094
01:42:02,240 --> 01:42:06,839
Speaker 7: digging it out recently, is because John Robinson is part

2095
01:42:07,320 --> 01:42:10,920
Speaker 7: of a tradition of heterodox economics, which is it's you know,

2096
01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:14,840
Speaker 7: the economics that's not the mainstream ones, and all of

2097
01:42:14,880 --> 01:42:18,599
Speaker 7: those people who got systematically purged from every academic institution

2098
01:42:18,760 --> 01:42:22,440
Speaker 7: over the span of about thirty years by the neoclassical

2099
01:42:22,439 --> 01:42:23,479
Speaker 7: economists because.

2100
01:42:23,240 --> 01:42:25,040
Speaker 5: The government doesn't want you to know their ideas.

2101
01:42:25,120 --> 01:42:27,720
Speaker 7: I mean, like well, like like genuinely what happened was

2102
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:29,160
Speaker 7: it was like it was it was a bunch of

2103
01:42:29,200 --> 01:42:32,439
Speaker 7: these people like hired by capitalists in order to do

2104
01:42:32,479 --> 01:42:35,160
Speaker 7: propaganda for them, and they went through and systematically took

2105
01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:38,200
Speaker 7: over and purged all of the country's economics departments.

2106
01:42:38,400 --> 01:42:41,040
Speaker 10: If what she's saying is the entire framework of your

2107
01:42:41,040 --> 01:42:43,519
Speaker 10: worldview just like functionally doesn't work.

2108
01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:46,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's that's not a good vibe for them.

2109
01:42:47,160 --> 01:42:50,439
Speaker 7: So let's talk about the kind of tradition that John

2110
01:42:50,520 --> 01:42:53,760
Speaker 7: Robinson operates in, because this is actually a story that

2111
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:59,160
Speaker 7: really really tangentially the planet money people kind of allude

2112
01:42:59,200 --> 01:43:03,480
Speaker 7: to and then ever talk about again even though it's fascinating.

2113
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:08,559
Speaker 7: So John Robinson is I guess you could call her

2114
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:11,439
Speaker 7: one of the sort of first people in what you

2115
01:43:11,439 --> 01:43:13,360
Speaker 7: would call the post Kinesian tradition.

2116
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:16,639
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I'm always saying that, do you know who Canes

2117
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:19,719
Speaker 5: is an economist? Was his name Maynard?

2118
01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:23,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, John Maynard Kanes. Okay, he's like, like if you

2119
01:43:23,920 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 7: remember one thing about Canes, like if you need to

2120
01:43:27,560 --> 01:43:29,040
Speaker 7: just be like you have a flash card, you need

2121
01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:32,400
Speaker 7: to be like someone says Canes, he's the I guess,

2122
01:43:32,439 --> 01:43:35,360
Speaker 7: like the Cetagal terms like countercyclical spending. But he's he's

2123
01:43:35,400 --> 01:43:39,400
Speaker 7: the guy who's like, what economy bad, government should spend

2124
01:43:39,479 --> 01:43:43,080
Speaker 7: money in order to make economy not bad. Again, that's

2125
01:43:43,120 --> 01:43:45,719
Speaker 7: like the most basic part of Kanesianism.

2126
01:43:45,200 --> 01:43:46,000
Speaker 5: And that's all I need.

2127
01:43:46,720 --> 01:43:49,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, But like the thing about Caynes is that like

2128
01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 7: he wants like a nicer version of capitalism, but he

2129
01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:55,120
Speaker 7: is like a capitalist, and so there's a sort of

2130
01:43:55,240 --> 01:43:58,680
Speaker 7: miliu around him that John Robinson is kind of part of.

2131
01:43:59,560 --> 01:44:03,160
Speaker 7: But there's a lot of elements of it. And people

2132
01:44:03,240 --> 01:44:07,879
Speaker 7: who Canes like take stuff from who are extremely obscure

2133
01:44:07,960 --> 01:44:11,760
Speaker 7: now because you know, Canes did a version of it

2134
01:44:11,840 --> 01:44:14,920
Speaker 7: that like took the radicalism out. I promised earlier you

2135
01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:17,360
Speaker 7: were going to get to the guy who like invented

2136
01:44:17,400 --> 01:44:22,960
Speaker 7: the concept of actually doing scientific studies for macroeconomics. That

2137
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:24,360
Speaker 7: reason that makes me.

2138
01:44:24,520 --> 01:44:28,160
Speaker 5: So mad that the answer to that question isn't the

2139
01:44:28,240 --> 01:44:31,400
Speaker 5: first guy who put math in who decided that we

2140
01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:33,479
Speaker 5: should do math and economics. Oh, the first guy that

2141
01:44:33,560 --> 01:44:35,680
Speaker 5: did it, the first economists, right, the guy even been

2142
01:44:35,680 --> 01:44:36,320
Speaker 5: in economics.

2143
01:44:36,360 --> 01:44:41,520
Speaker 7: Right, economists do a bunch of math. It's just not math, that's.

2144
01:44:41,360 --> 01:44:46,599
Speaker 5: But like we should study the currently existing reality.

2145
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:47,919
Speaker 7: Yeah, the world first.

2146
01:44:48,400 --> 01:44:51,040
Speaker 10: Right, it's just like trying to force reality into this

2147
01:44:51,160 --> 01:44:51,920
Speaker 10: chart that I made.

2148
01:44:52,680 --> 01:44:53,320
Speaker 5: That's awesome.

2149
01:44:54,040 --> 01:44:56,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, And so the guy who was like, hey, what

2150
01:44:56,280 --> 01:45:01,240
Speaker 7: if we observed reality? His name is Michael good for him?

2151
01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:02,759
Speaker 5: Great dub Michael.

2152
01:45:03,280 --> 01:45:03,920
Speaker 8: He rocks.

2153
01:45:04,320 --> 01:45:09,719
Speaker 7: Yeah, he has a long and convoluted history of stuff.

2154
01:45:10,080 --> 01:45:11,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say I don't endorse

2155
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:13,479
Speaker 5: everything he did. I don't know anything about him.

2156
01:45:13,880 --> 01:45:17,800
Speaker 7: Honestly, he kind of rocks. He's so he COLLECKI, like

2157
01:45:17,880 --> 01:45:21,120
Speaker 7: foundationally is a Marxist, right, It's not sure that he's

2158
01:45:21,160 --> 01:45:24,360
Speaker 7: from this school, but he's the guy from which one

2159
01:45:24,400 --> 01:45:27,160
Speaker 7: of the major schools of Marxist economics is born, which

2160
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:31,200
Speaker 7: is called the Monopoly capital school, who are kind of

2161
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:33,880
Speaker 7: the Marxist version of the people who were like, oh

2162
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:37,160
Speaker 7: my god, hold on, monopoly has gotten so out of hand.

2163
01:45:37,200 --> 01:45:40,720
Speaker 7: We have to change how our economics work. Robinson kind

2164
01:45:40,720 --> 01:45:44,240
Speaker 7: of discovers Kaleki a little bit later in her career.

2165
01:45:44,240 --> 01:45:47,040
Speaker 7: It's sort of like a forties thing, right, She's originally

2166
01:45:47,040 --> 01:45:49,439
Speaker 7: writing about emperor competition and like monopsony in.

2167
01:45:49,400 --> 01:45:50,080
Speaker 4: Like the thirties.

2168
01:45:50,680 --> 01:45:54,639
Speaker 7: But Colleki's one of the people who is responsible for

2169
01:45:54,720 --> 01:45:58,280
Speaker 7: a bunch of these ideas around, like him and Robinson

2170
01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:03,559
Speaker 7: are responsible for a bunch of the ideas around. Like okay, yeah, actually,

2171
01:46:04,080 --> 01:46:06,160
Speaker 7: it turns out that everything we've been talking about is

2172
01:46:06,160 --> 01:46:09,240
Speaker 7: like the world is composed of monopolies and monoposes and

2173
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:15,160
Speaker 7: everything exists at best in the state of hypercompetition. And

2174
01:46:15,960 --> 01:46:21,640
Speaker 7: this this becomes kind of its own school, and like

2175
01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:24,360
Speaker 7: you know, it branches out in a bunch of different

2176
01:46:24,360 --> 01:46:27,599
Speaker 7: ways through the work of some other people who who

2177
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:31,880
Speaker 7: start to look at like how is price set? And

2178
01:46:31,920 --> 01:46:34,639
Speaker 7: this is something that we've talked about on this show before.

2179
01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:38,400
Speaker 7: So so like, okay, if you've ever seen the graph

2180
01:46:38,680 --> 01:46:41,000
Speaker 7: that like all of the econ people use where it's

2181
01:46:41,040 --> 01:46:43,519
Speaker 7: like prices, supply and demand, right.

2182
01:46:43,560 --> 01:46:44,240
Speaker 5: What is it?

2183
01:46:45,200 --> 01:46:47,679
Speaker 7: Well, okay, so at a certain point and we've talked

2184
01:46:47,680 --> 01:46:50,639
Speaker 7: about this on the show before, our friends as Strange Matters,

2185
01:46:51,520 --> 01:46:53,639
Speaker 7: the magazine Strange Matters, I have written about this a lot.

2186
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:56,759
Speaker 7: If you like, ask a person it's funny. I actually

2187
01:46:56,800 --> 01:46:59,640
Speaker 7: did this by accident with a fringe who runs like

2188
01:46:59,680 --> 01:47:02,679
Speaker 7: a very very small business. Well it's not that small,

2189
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:05,280
Speaker 7: but like run runs runs like a very very small business.

2190
01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:08,280
Speaker 7: And I asked her, like she was talking about, like, okay,

2191
01:47:08,280 --> 01:47:10,160
Speaker 7: how do we figure out how to like price something?

2192
01:47:10,720 --> 01:47:13,040
Speaker 7: And I talked to her about it and she goes, yeah,

2193
01:47:13,040 --> 01:47:17,519
Speaker 7: it's cost plus markup right. And the thing about price right,

2194
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:20,440
Speaker 7: is price is not set by a graph, like prices

2195
01:47:20,520 --> 01:47:25,559
Speaker 7: are set by a person in an office who figures

2196
01:47:25,600 --> 01:47:28,479
Speaker 7: out what the price is going to be, right, and

2197
01:47:28,520 --> 01:47:31,200
Speaker 7: the way that they do that is cost plus markup.

2198
01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:33,559
Speaker 7: It's like, how expensive was the item for us to obtain,

2199
01:47:34,000 --> 01:47:38,080
Speaker 7: and then what's the like additional price that we need

2200
01:47:38,120 --> 01:47:40,960
Speaker 7: to sell it for in order to both make profit

2201
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:44,760
Speaker 7: and pay everyone. And this is really obvious to like

2202
01:47:44,920 --> 01:47:47,960
Speaker 7: anyone who's done a job, but like, well, yeah, no, shit,

2203
01:47:48,040 --> 01:47:50,880
Speaker 7: of course it's costless markup. In economics, this is considered

2204
01:47:50,920 --> 01:47:52,680
Speaker 7: an extremely radical idea.

2205
01:47:53,640 --> 01:47:54,439
Speaker 5: I guess you know.

2206
01:47:54,520 --> 01:47:56,760
Speaker 10: In this, in this supply and demand model, it's just

2207
01:47:56,800 --> 01:47:59,720
Speaker 10: like whatever people are willing to pay, you just keep

2208
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:02,280
Speaker 10: in create seeing the price until demand drops off and

2209
01:48:02,280 --> 01:48:03,479
Speaker 10: then you back off a little.

2210
01:48:03,920 --> 01:48:08,040
Speaker 7: Yeah. In economics, that's called like companies being like price takers.

2211
01:48:08,080 --> 01:48:11,760
Speaker 7: The theory and like normal economics quote unquote is that

2212
01:48:11,800 --> 01:48:15,920
Speaker 7: companies they don't set prices. They take the price from

2213
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:19,560
Speaker 7: like what people are willing to pay, and that's objectively

2214
01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:20,160
Speaker 7: not true.

2215
01:48:20,640 --> 01:48:22,920
Speaker 5: They're just constantly standing there tweaking the dial.

2216
01:48:23,120 --> 01:48:26,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's like no, no, no, no, no, no, like just

2217
01:48:26,240 --> 01:48:28,640
Speaker 7: just on an objective level, what's happening is is you

2218
01:48:28,680 --> 01:48:31,559
Speaker 7: know this, this is what's called like administrative prices, right,

2219
01:48:31,960 --> 01:48:33,960
Speaker 7: and this is this is like the basic like one

2220
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:36,720
Speaker 7: of the basic revelations of like post Kanes in economics

2221
01:48:36,760 --> 01:48:40,320
Speaker 7: is that price is set by a person who sets

2222
01:48:40,320 --> 01:48:41,879
Speaker 7: it by cost plus markup.

2223
01:48:42,520 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 5: And there's the precog who floats at a pool of

2224
01:48:46,600 --> 01:48:48,519
Speaker 5: goo and just into it's the prices.

2225
01:48:48,680 --> 01:48:50,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, they like see the data. It's like no, no, no, no, no,

2226
01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:53,920
Speaker 7: it's literally just a person they set the price. It's

2227
01:48:53,960 --> 01:48:57,920
Speaker 7: cost plus markup. There's some like psychology stuff there about

2228
01:48:57,920 --> 01:49:02,000
Speaker 7: like what kinds of prices will break a consumer's loyalty

2229
01:49:02,040 --> 01:49:04,880
Speaker 7: to like a store, right, because if you like raise

2230
01:49:04,920 --> 01:49:06,559
Speaker 7: the price at a store too much, people will stop

2231
01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:10,960
Speaker 7: shopping at the store. But like that's like the way

2232
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:15,599
Speaker 7: this stuff actually works. And this is one of the

2233
01:49:15,640 --> 01:49:19,680
Speaker 7: big post Knesy and innovations is like, Hi, we're trying

2234
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:21,439
Speaker 7: to figure out how price works. So we went and

2235
01:49:21,479 --> 01:49:23,760
Speaker 7: we asked a bunch of people how it works. A

2236
01:49:23,800 --> 01:49:29,080
Speaker 7: remarkable choice, yeah, right, ah God, But this is an

2237
01:49:29,120 --> 01:49:34,439
Speaker 7: issue for neoclassical economics because the whole like supply and

2238
01:49:34,479 --> 01:49:38,960
Speaker 7: demand setting price is like the basis of their whole thing,

2239
01:49:39,760 --> 01:49:43,679
Speaker 7: and it's the basis of all of their politics. Now,

2240
01:49:44,160 --> 01:49:47,160
Speaker 7: at this point, we need to talk about the thing

2241
01:49:47,680 --> 01:49:50,840
Speaker 7: that's legitimately complicated. Before we get into that, We're going

2242
01:49:50,880 --> 01:49:52,880
Speaker 7: to talk with something that's not complicated, which is how

2243
01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:54,600
Speaker 7: to use these products and services.

2244
01:49:55,080 --> 01:49:58,320
Speaker 5: Wow, we're actually doing the economy right now.

2245
01:49:58,560 --> 01:49:59,080
Speaker 7: We are.

2246
01:50:10,280 --> 01:50:11,200
Speaker 1: We are back.

2247
01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:13,920
Speaker 7: Okay, so we're gonna stop doing the economy. And the

2248
01:50:13,960 --> 01:50:16,400
Speaker 7: reason we're going to stop doing the economy is that,

2249
01:50:16,840 --> 01:50:19,480
Speaker 7: you know, when I talked about there being an ideological

2250
01:50:19,560 --> 01:50:23,000
Speaker 7: purge right people, a Strange Matters wrote about this economist

2251
01:50:23,080 --> 01:50:25,960
Speaker 7: named Frederick Lee who was an IWW member and who

2252
01:50:26,000 --> 01:50:28,360
Speaker 7: was one of the sort of I don't know, like

2253
01:50:28,360 --> 01:50:31,320
Speaker 7: the guy trying to pull the five thousand different strands

2254
01:50:31,320 --> 01:50:36,120
Speaker 7: of heterodox economics together. And he writes a really really detailed,

2255
01:50:36,240 --> 01:50:40,519
Speaker 7: in depth analysis of at each individual school, how did

2256
01:50:40,520 --> 01:50:43,599
Speaker 7: the neoclassical people come in and purge everyone and then

2257
01:50:43,680 --> 01:50:47,519
Speaker 7: maintain control of it. And one of the ways you

2258
01:50:47,520 --> 01:50:49,920
Speaker 7: can tell that this isn't about who is correct, it

2259
01:50:49,960 --> 01:50:54,400
Speaker 7: is about who has power is something called the Cambridge

2260
01:50:54,439 --> 01:50:57,160
Speaker 7: Capital controversy, which I'm going to assume Mali you have

2261
01:50:57,320 --> 01:50:58,080
Speaker 7: you haven't heard of this.

2262
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:01,639
Speaker 10: No, I was just really sort of marveling and turning

2263
01:51:01,640 --> 01:51:02,880
Speaker 10: that phrase over in my mind.

2264
01:51:02,920 --> 01:51:05,799
Speaker 5: It's not about who is correct, it's about who has power. Yeah,

2265
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:08,160
Speaker 5: I'm gonna store that one away. That's a good turn

2266
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:08,639
Speaker 5: of phrase.

2267
01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:11,200
Speaker 7: It's a good way of understanding this, and it's a

2268
01:51:11,200 --> 01:51:13,200
Speaker 7: good way of understanding the central thing of like, hey,

2269
01:51:13,200 --> 01:51:18,120
Speaker 7: why did everyone kind of ignore monopsony for eighty years?

2270
01:51:19,120 --> 01:51:22,160
Speaker 7: And it turns out that the answer is that being

2271
01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:25,520
Speaker 7: right doesn't do anything in economics.

2272
01:51:27,000 --> 01:51:27,960
Speaker 5: That's heartbreaking.

2273
01:51:28,200 --> 01:51:30,599
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's bleak. And some of these people people who

2274
01:51:30,600 --> 01:51:33,040
Speaker 7: have institutional power. So one of the things that Joan

2275
01:51:33,120 --> 01:51:36,559
Speaker 7: Robinson is most famous for doing is her and her

2276
01:51:36,600 --> 01:51:42,400
Speaker 7: collaborator Piero Saraffa, who's another whole story, who's an extremely

2277
01:51:42,479 --> 01:51:45,519
Speaker 7: wild guy. Saraffa is the other person who a bunch

2278
01:51:45,520 --> 01:51:48,479
Speaker 7: of this, like heterodox economics is based off of. There's

2279
01:51:48,520 --> 01:51:51,880
Speaker 7: a large extent to which heterodox economics means that, like,

2280
01:51:52,080 --> 01:51:55,280
Speaker 7: you think Saraffa was right instead of the Chicago School people,

2281
01:51:55,720 --> 01:51:58,920
Speaker 7: and like the neoclassical people or Marx or you're sort

2282
01:51:58,960 --> 01:52:02,200
Speaker 7: of like fusing the two of them. And he and

2283
01:52:02,320 --> 01:52:05,800
Speaker 7: Joe and Robinson are writing out of Cambridge, the one

2284
01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:09,600
Speaker 7: in England. But then there's also a whole bunch of

2285
01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:12,840
Speaker 7: neoclassical economists are at Cambridge, the one in Massachusetts.

2286
01:52:13,240 --> 01:52:16,280
Speaker 5: They really can't be doing that. Yeah, well, we got

2287
01:52:16,320 --> 01:52:17,360
Speaker 5: to rename at least one of them.

2288
01:52:17,360 --> 01:52:19,560
Speaker 7: And they fight it out. That's why it's called the

2289
01:52:19,600 --> 01:52:24,800
Speaker 7: Cambridge capital controversy. They know more. Yeah, so, okay, the

2290
01:52:24,840 --> 01:52:30,519
Speaker 7: thing that they're fighting about is extremely convoluted. At some point, Mollie,

2291
01:52:30,520 --> 01:52:32,240
Speaker 7: I'm gonna drag you on here and we're gonna do

2292
01:52:32,680 --> 01:52:36,400
Speaker 7: the actual full version of it. But the short version

2293
01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:42,240
Speaker 7: of it is really funny. And the short version of

2294
01:52:42,280 --> 01:52:45,600
Speaker 7: it is that this is a fight about Okay, so

2295
01:52:45,720 --> 01:52:49,639
Speaker 7: you have like two different kinds of what are called

2296
01:52:49,680 --> 01:52:52,800
Speaker 7: capital goods. So you have like, I don't know, I

2297
01:52:52,880 --> 01:52:55,320
Speaker 7: think the capital's power one. It's like tools that make

2298
01:52:55,400 --> 01:52:59,360
Speaker 7: ice cream and tools that make airplane And the question

2299
01:52:59,520 --> 01:53:03,040
Speaker 7: is how do you figure out how much those tools

2300
01:53:03,080 --> 01:53:04,120
Speaker 7: are worth together?

2301
01:53:04,720 --> 01:53:06,680
Speaker 5: Well, are you selling ice cream on the airplanes?

2302
01:53:07,520 --> 01:53:11,960
Speaker 7: You know they where you're selling them? Doesn't taste really,

2303
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:12,920
Speaker 7: I just think.

2304
01:53:13,080 --> 01:53:14,760
Speaker 5: Is there synergy at play here?

2305
01:53:14,920 --> 01:53:15,160
Speaker 12: Mia?

2306
01:53:15,280 --> 01:53:17,680
Speaker 5: Like, well, I'm actually.

2307
01:53:17,320 --> 01:53:20,920
Speaker 7: One of the legitimately the idea that you could use

2308
01:53:21,840 --> 01:53:25,200
Speaker 7: the same equipment to do multiple things, is like a

2309
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:28,599
Speaker 7: really serious problem for an enormous number of economic schools.

2310
01:53:29,240 --> 01:53:32,479
Speaker 7: Like it's like real bad. It's like kind of it's

2311
01:53:32,560 --> 01:53:35,680
Speaker 7: kind of even bad for like the mathematics behind like

2312
01:53:35,760 --> 01:53:40,439
Speaker 7: classical Marxist political economy. It's it's it's really bad for

2313
01:53:40,520 --> 01:53:42,840
Speaker 7: like the classical people. It's not great.

2314
01:53:43,040 --> 01:53:45,679
Speaker 5: So my new airline where everyone gets a free ice

2315
01:53:45,720 --> 01:53:47,479
Speaker 5: cream is really throwing a wrench into this.

2316
01:53:48,080 --> 01:53:51,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, as long as as long as the same

2317
01:53:51,320 --> 01:53:55,040
Speaker 7: machines can either be making ice cream or you can

2318
01:53:55,080 --> 01:53:57,439
Speaker 7: be making airplane and you can't tell which one.

2319
01:53:57,880 --> 01:54:01,080
Speaker 5: What are they teaching at economy school? What if even happening?

2320
01:54:01,320 --> 01:54:04,360
Speaker 5: So we were arguing about ice cream machines, Well.

2321
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:06,519
Speaker 7: So so what what they're what they're arguing about, right,

2322
01:54:06,680 --> 01:54:12,200
Speaker 7: is if you are doing like normal neoclassical economics, can

2323
01:54:12,240 --> 01:54:16,920
Speaker 7: you point at like factories and go how much is

2324
01:54:16,960 --> 01:54:20,840
Speaker 7: this worth? And this is a real problem because it

2325
01:54:20,960 --> 01:54:24,599
Speaker 7: turns out that the way the neoclassical economists do this

2326
01:54:24,960 --> 01:54:27,920
Speaker 7: is circular. So, okay, you're trying to figure out how

2327
01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:30,280
Speaker 7: much money a factory is worth. I'm going to quote

2328
01:54:30,280 --> 01:54:33,120
Speaker 7: here from the book Capital Is Power which has a

2329
01:54:33,240 --> 01:54:36,920
Speaker 7: very good explanation of what's happening here. The money value

2330
01:54:36,920 --> 01:54:39,800
Speaker 7: of any capital good, that is, the amount investors are

2331
01:54:39,800 --> 01:54:43,320
Speaker 7: willing to pay for it, is the present value of

2332
01:54:43,320 --> 01:54:47,600
Speaker 7: its expected future profits, computed by discounting this profit by

2333
01:54:47,600 --> 01:54:50,600
Speaker 7: the prevailing rate of interest. So value equals expected profit

2334
01:54:50,640 --> 01:54:53,080
Speaker 7: divided by rate of interest. So basically what they're saying

2335
01:54:53,120 --> 01:54:55,960
Speaker 7: here is that, like, okay, you're trying to figure out

2336
01:54:56,000 --> 01:54:59,160
Speaker 7: how much money is the factory worth. The amount of

2337
01:54:59,160 --> 01:55:02,760
Speaker 7: money the factory is worth depends on how much money

2338
01:55:02,800 --> 01:55:05,720
Speaker 7: you make from using the factory to make a plane

2339
01:55:05,840 --> 01:55:08,240
Speaker 7: or make ice cream. That's like basically what that's saying,

2340
01:55:08,280 --> 01:55:11,320
Speaker 7: and then there's a discounting rate because you're making that

2341
01:55:11,400 --> 01:55:12,320
Speaker 7: money in the future.

2342
01:55:12,960 --> 01:55:15,440
Speaker 10: The problem with all of these principles is it's a

2343
01:55:15,480 --> 01:55:18,880
Speaker 10: perfect blend of stuff that's like completely fucking obvious, like

2344
01:55:18,960 --> 01:55:23,280
Speaker 10: statements of observed reality. Yeah, and then also stuff that

2345
01:55:23,320 --> 01:55:25,840
Speaker 10: somebody just made up based on a feeling that they had,

2346
01:55:26,200 --> 01:55:26,960
Speaker 10: and you can never.

2347
01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:28,440
Speaker 5: Tell which one you're doing, you know what I mean?

2348
01:55:28,440 --> 01:55:31,320
Speaker 10: Like, yeah, like what the factory is worth is based

2349
01:55:31,320 --> 01:55:33,000
Speaker 10: on how much money it can make, obviously.

2350
01:55:33,240 --> 01:55:35,360
Speaker 7: But here's the problem. This is one of those you know,

2351
01:55:35,400 --> 01:55:37,240
Speaker 7: you know, the Calendart Hawes meme where it's like you

2352
01:55:37,240 --> 01:55:41,280
Speaker 7: can divide everything into two categories. This one surprisingly seems

2353
01:55:41,320 --> 01:55:46,160
Speaker 7: like it observed. Reality is actually bullshit because because the

2354
01:55:46,240 --> 01:55:49,480
Speaker 7: problem is all right, so, okay, so in order to

2355
01:55:49,520 --> 01:55:51,200
Speaker 7: find out the value of the factory, you need to

2356
01:55:51,240 --> 01:55:53,400
Speaker 7: know what the profits are going to be.

2357
01:55:53,560 --> 01:55:55,560
Speaker 10: Well, I thought the value of things. I thought the

2358
01:55:55,560 --> 01:55:57,600
Speaker 10: price of things was set by supply and demands. The

2359
01:55:57,680 --> 01:56:00,440
Speaker 10: value of the factories whatever, someone's willing to pay for it.

2360
01:56:00,680 --> 01:56:03,640
Speaker 7: Right, But here's the issue though, Like that's like sort

2361
01:56:03,640 --> 01:56:04,040
Speaker 7: of true.

2362
01:56:04,200 --> 01:56:06,000
Speaker 5: No, I'm just making a jug that like prices and

2363
01:56:06,080 --> 01:56:07,440
Speaker 5: values appear to be disconnected.

2364
01:56:07,840 --> 01:56:10,920
Speaker 7: Legitimately, that is drilling into the problem with what's happening here,

2365
01:56:10,960 --> 01:56:13,200
Speaker 7: which is that, okay, but how do you know how

2366
01:56:13,280 --> 01:56:14,960
Speaker 7: much money the factory is it going to be worth?

2367
01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:17,360
Speaker 10: So we're saying like the factory has an inherent value

2368
01:56:17,480 --> 01:56:18,920
Speaker 10: versus the factory has a price.

2369
01:56:19,080 --> 01:56:20,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, so our price.

2370
01:56:20,360 --> 01:56:22,160
Speaker 5: Is not reflect an inherent value.

2371
01:56:22,520 --> 01:56:25,200
Speaker 7: So this is also kind of the core of this issue, right,

2372
01:56:25,240 --> 01:56:25,840
Speaker 7: which is like.

2373
01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:26,960
Speaker 5: That money isn't even real.

2374
01:56:27,120 --> 01:56:28,840
Speaker 7: Well yeah, but it's like, okay, if if you want

2375
01:56:28,880 --> 01:56:33,720
Speaker 7: to compare how much two different types of machinery are worth.

2376
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:36,440
Speaker 7: You need to compare them in terms of money. Because

2377
01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:38,120
Speaker 7: they're making two different things. You have to be able

2378
01:56:38,120 --> 01:56:39,880
Speaker 7: to compare them. But the problem is the moment you

2379
01:56:39,920 --> 01:56:42,840
Speaker 7: start doing that, you then have to go, Okay, how

2380
01:56:42,920 --> 01:56:44,680
Speaker 7: much is it worth? And how much is it worth?

2381
01:56:45,200 --> 01:56:48,320
Speaker 7: In theory is like it's it's like marginal utility. Right,

2382
01:56:48,880 --> 01:56:51,920
Speaker 7: So in order to know how much the machine is worth,

2383
01:56:52,400 --> 01:56:54,400
Speaker 7: you have to know how much money it can make.

2384
01:56:54,440 --> 01:56:56,000
Speaker 7: But in order to know how much money it can make,

2385
01:56:56,040 --> 01:56:57,560
Speaker 7: you need to know how much the machine is worth.

2386
01:56:58,240 --> 01:57:01,880
Speaker 7: The issue here, right, is that you're trying to find

2387
01:57:02,120 --> 01:57:04,760
Speaker 7: one price for how much the factory is worth. But

2388
01:57:05,880 --> 01:57:09,760
Speaker 7: you can't find that one price without knowing how much

2389
01:57:10,160 --> 01:57:12,720
Speaker 7: profit you're getting from using the factory to make the thing.

2390
01:57:14,200 --> 01:57:19,240
Speaker 7: But you could have multiple different levels of profit from

2391
01:57:19,320 --> 01:57:21,640
Speaker 7: that same factory. The problem is, how do you determine.

2392
01:57:21,880 --> 01:57:23,440
Speaker 7: You know, you could make ten dollars in the factory,

2393
01:57:23,440 --> 01:57:25,800
Speaker 7: where the factory could also make twenty dollars. How do

2394
01:57:25,840 --> 01:57:29,200
Speaker 7: you figure out which one of those it is? Because

2395
01:57:29,200 --> 01:57:32,080
Speaker 7: that's what determines the value the factory is how much

2396
01:57:32,120 --> 01:57:34,840
Speaker 7: money it makes. So okay, you turn around to the

2397
01:57:34,840 --> 01:57:38,680
Speaker 7: neoclassical theory of how you figure out what the profit is.

2398
01:57:39,160 --> 01:57:42,400
Speaker 7: But that theorem requires you to know the marginal utility

2399
01:57:42,440 --> 01:57:44,760
Speaker 7: of the factory. So it requires you to know how

2400
01:57:44,880 --> 01:57:48,080
Speaker 7: much profit you're going to get from using the tool. Right,

2401
01:57:48,080 --> 01:57:49,600
Speaker 7: you have to know how much the tool is worth

2402
01:57:49,640 --> 01:57:51,200
Speaker 7: in order to figure out how much a profit is.

2403
01:57:51,440 --> 01:57:52,800
Speaker 7: But then you have to figure out in order to

2404
01:57:52,840 --> 01:57:53,240
Speaker 7: figure out.

2405
01:57:53,280 --> 01:57:55,120
Speaker 10: So this is why they just make stuff up, because

2406
01:57:55,120 --> 01:57:56,880
Speaker 10: otherwise they get trapped in the infinite loose.

2407
01:57:56,960 --> 01:58:00,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's worse than that, because the value of the

2408
01:58:01,080 --> 01:58:05,480
Speaker 7: factory depends on how much money you're going to make

2409
01:58:05,480 --> 01:58:07,360
Speaker 7: from the ice cream. But how much money you make

2410
01:58:07,400 --> 01:58:11,320
Speaker 7: from the ice cream depends on how expensive it is

2411
01:58:11,320 --> 01:58:13,720
Speaker 7: to have the ice cream machine. Right, So they're both

2412
01:58:13,760 --> 01:58:16,840
Speaker 7: set by each other. Right, If you only have one

2413
01:58:16,840 --> 01:58:20,120
Speaker 7: of them, you can't calculate the other one. They're both

2414
01:58:20,160 --> 01:58:23,400
Speaker 7: like X and Y, and in order to figure out

2415
01:58:23,640 --> 01:58:25,440
Speaker 7: what one of them is worth, you already have to

2416
01:58:25,440 --> 01:58:26,120
Speaker 7: know the other one.

2417
01:58:26,200 --> 01:58:28,080
Speaker 5: Right, you need a constant at some point.

2418
01:58:28,920 --> 01:58:32,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, and legitimately, and this is a shit show because

2419
01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:35,920
Speaker 7: it means that you actually can't figure out how much

2420
01:58:36,000 --> 01:58:38,800
Speaker 7: the capital goods are worth in order to move on

2421
01:58:38,840 --> 01:58:40,400
Speaker 7: to stage two of the process, where you figure out

2422
01:58:40,400 --> 01:58:42,960
Speaker 7: the profit because you already need to have the answer

2423
01:58:43,040 --> 01:58:46,120
Speaker 7: to the question you are asking, and so like this

2424
01:58:46,160 --> 01:58:50,960
Speaker 7: is an issue bad enough that the IMF publishes these

2425
01:58:51,080 --> 01:58:54,840
Speaker 7: or I think it's maybe it's the World Bank publishes

2426
01:58:54,920 --> 01:58:57,600
Speaker 7: these like giant tables of like the value of capital

2427
01:58:57,640 --> 01:59:00,360
Speaker 7: stocks right in a country. Well, they'll go through there.

2428
01:59:00,360 --> 01:59:02,640
Speaker 7: They're trying to produce economic data about like a country,

2429
01:59:02,640 --> 01:59:04,440
Speaker 7: and they're like, okay, like how much are the factories worth?

2430
01:59:04,800 --> 01:59:08,680
Speaker 7: And the people who are trained to produce these books,

2431
01:59:09,080 --> 01:59:12,440
Speaker 7: there's multiple different values that these factories could have depending

2432
01:59:12,480 --> 01:59:15,000
Speaker 7: on how much money they make, and they're literally just

2433
01:59:15,080 --> 01:59:18,080
Speaker 7: chose to choose one of them, like at random. They're like,

2434
01:59:18,200 --> 01:59:19,120
Speaker 7: fuck it, pick one.

2435
01:59:19,400 --> 01:59:22,200
Speaker 10: This is not making me more confident about the economy.

2436
01:59:22,800 --> 01:59:25,640
Speaker 7: No, Well, but this is a shit show because because

2437
01:59:26,120 --> 01:59:28,520
Speaker 7: this is what this fight is about. It's about like

2438
01:59:28,560 --> 01:59:31,960
Speaker 7: the whole Cambige capital controversy is is like Joan Robinson

2439
01:59:32,040 --> 01:59:34,920
Speaker 7: going hold on. In order in order to like figure

2440
01:59:35,000 --> 01:59:38,120
Speaker 7: out your equation for how price works, you need to

2441
01:59:38,200 --> 01:59:41,000
Speaker 7: know something that you can only figure out by knowing

2442
01:59:41,000 --> 01:59:41,760
Speaker 7: the price already.

2443
01:59:41,800 --> 01:59:43,880
Speaker 5: Well, that's why you just feel the price in your heart.

2444
01:59:44,280 --> 01:59:47,560
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, but this causes, this causes like a decade

2445
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:50,839
Speaker 7: of like fighting about this all of the like famous

2446
01:59:50,880 --> 01:59:54,760
Speaker 7: neoclassical economists. Actually, ho, can you list a Javier's dogs?

2447
01:59:55,960 --> 01:59:59,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, so Milton from Milton Friedman, Murray from Murray

2448
01:59:59,840 --> 02:00:04,160
Speaker 5: ro barred, and two dogs, one Robert, one Lucas for

2449
02:00:04,280 --> 02:00:05,240
Speaker 5: Robert Lucas Junior.

2450
02:00:05,520 --> 02:00:08,360
Speaker 7: Wow. He actually, I think he actually dodged all of them.

2451
02:00:09,360 --> 02:00:11,480
Speaker 7: I think I think he meant by bye by not

2452
02:00:11,560 --> 02:00:15,320
Speaker 7: naming someone. Paul Samuel said, I think he actually dodged it.

2453
02:00:15,760 --> 02:00:18,560
Speaker 10: He considers these dogs to be Conan's offspring, so these

2454
02:00:18,600 --> 02:00:20,560
Speaker 10: are all clones of his dog Conan. He considers the

2455
02:00:20,560 --> 02:00:24,600
Speaker 10: dogs to be Conn's offspring and thus his own grandson's

2456
02:00:24,600 --> 02:00:26,280
Speaker 10: because he believes the dog is his son.

2457
02:00:26,800 --> 02:00:28,360
Speaker 7: He's fucking Christ anyway.

2458
02:00:29,040 --> 02:00:31,080
Speaker 10: Yeah, but that's the only reason I know any of

2459
02:00:31,120 --> 02:00:32,000
Speaker 10: those people are.

2460
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:35,240
Speaker 7: Oh my god, wait, hold on, hold on, I'm sure

2461
02:00:35,480 --> 02:00:37,480
Speaker 7: I'm not looking at at which Robert is this named

2462
02:00:37,480 --> 02:00:38,560
Speaker 7: after Robert.

2463
02:00:38,280 --> 02:00:41,320
Speaker 10: Lucas Junior from the University of Chicago.

2464
02:00:41,880 --> 02:00:44,520
Speaker 7: Oh, he dodged it. It was it was mostly the

2465
02:00:44,560 --> 02:00:48,000
Speaker 7: other Robert Robert Slowell sloow. God damn. I think I

2466
02:00:48,560 --> 02:00:51,520
Speaker 7: think he actually dodged having any of his dogs be

2467
02:00:51,640 --> 02:00:53,680
Speaker 7: named after the people who got their asses kicked in this.

2468
02:00:54,960 --> 02:00:58,520
Speaker 7: I think he managed to do it. So Paul Samuelson

2469
02:00:58,600 --> 02:01:02,280
Speaker 7: is like after Milton Freedmen and maybe Hyek. He's like

2470
02:01:02,320 --> 02:01:06,760
Speaker 7: probably the third most influential neoclassical economists, and he's like

2471
02:01:07,040 --> 02:01:09,280
Speaker 7: one of the people at the American Cambridge who are

2472
02:01:09,280 --> 02:01:12,440
Speaker 7: like arguing with like neoclassical people and they lose. They

2473
02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:15,800
Speaker 7: just straight up lose this fight because they're wrong. And

2474
02:01:15,840 --> 02:01:18,160
Speaker 7: the consequence of them being wrong is every single thing

2475
02:01:18,160 --> 02:01:22,360
Speaker 7: they've ever written is wrong. Because if you can't calculate

2476
02:01:22,440 --> 02:01:27,000
Speaker 7: how much a factory is worth, literally nothing you've ever

2477
02:01:27,000 --> 02:01:30,080
Speaker 7: written functions that's so funny. They can't do it.

2478
02:01:30,280 --> 02:01:32,120
Speaker 5: Didn't of them kill themselves like.

2479
02:01:33,240 --> 02:01:36,040
Speaker 7: You would think, But they were just like, oh well,

2480
02:01:36,120 --> 02:01:37,120
Speaker 7: we'll just guess.

2481
02:01:37,080 --> 02:01:38,640
Speaker 10: Because I like a lot of people were like at

2482
02:01:38,640 --> 02:01:40,520
Speaker 10: the end of their careers. Right, you're like sixty seventy

2483
02:01:40,600 --> 02:01:43,839
Speaker 10: years old, you're like professor emeritus of macroeconomics at Cambridge

2484
02:01:43,880 --> 02:01:45,680
Speaker 10: or we're never the fuck and do you find out

2485
02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:49,320
Speaker 10: that everything you've ever written was no longer Like we

2486
02:01:49,440 --> 02:01:51,400
Speaker 10: all agree that everything you ever said was wrong.

2487
02:01:52,360 --> 02:01:54,600
Speaker 7: How do you do Here's the thing. They just kept

2488
02:01:54,680 --> 02:01:58,240
Speaker 7: writing as if they didn't lose. Okay, this is why

2489
02:01:58,280 --> 02:01:59,959
Speaker 7: I was saying, it doesn't matter.

2490
02:02:00,040 --> 02:02:03,200
Speaker 5: Who can say who wins or loses, because it's all fame.

2491
02:02:03,320 --> 02:02:05,600
Speaker 7: Yeah and so and so likely. Literally what they did

2492
02:02:05,760 --> 02:02:09,200
Speaker 7: is is that this stuff, this fight never like broke

2493
02:02:09,240 --> 02:02:12,520
Speaker 7: out of like academic economist circles, and so no one

2494
02:02:12,560 --> 02:02:14,839
Speaker 7: today has any idea any of this shit happened.

2495
02:02:14,920 --> 02:02:16,640
Speaker 5: Good. No, because it doesn't mean anything.

2496
02:02:17,000 --> 02:02:19,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, I mean, idiot, it does in the sense

2497
02:02:19,280 --> 02:02:21,640
Speaker 7: that life, to me, you can demonstrably prove that, like

2498
02:02:22,240 --> 02:02:24,920
Speaker 7: these people can't tell you how much a factory is worth.

2499
02:02:25,160 --> 02:02:27,000
Speaker 5: I've read the Wall Street Journal. I know there's no

2500
02:02:27,040 --> 02:02:28,160
Speaker 5: such thing as an economist.

2501
02:02:29,040 --> 02:02:31,640
Speaker 7: Yeah. Part of what's happening here is like the reason

2502
02:02:31,680 --> 02:02:34,880
Speaker 7: we all intuitively do that is because these people win.

2503
02:02:35,120 --> 02:02:38,000
Speaker 10: Right, So this entire like academic field just kind of

2504
02:02:38,040 --> 02:02:39,920
Speaker 10: shrugged and said, it doesn't matter.

2505
02:02:40,000 --> 02:02:41,360
Speaker 5: What we're saying doesn't mean anything.

2506
02:02:41,800 --> 02:02:44,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, there were like a couple of people who tried

2507
02:02:44,280 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 7: to like actually work with it, and everyone eventually just

2508
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:51,640
Speaker 7: stopped paying attention. Legitimately, the answer for like modern economics

2509
02:02:51,680 --> 02:02:53,520
Speaker 7: is just to pretend that it never happened and then

2510
02:02:53,600 --> 02:02:55,960
Speaker 7: go like, oh, well, these people never produced anything of

2511
02:02:56,120 --> 02:03:00,440
Speaker 7: note academically, and it's like, well, on the one hand,

2512
02:03:00,480 --> 02:03:03,000
Speaker 7: that's like not true because the stuff that they did

2513
02:03:03,120 --> 02:03:07,320
Speaker 7: right is really good. But also their descendants, yeah, didn't

2514
02:03:07,360 --> 02:03:12,240
Speaker 7: get academic positions because you purge them all. And this

2515
02:03:12,320 --> 02:03:14,000
Speaker 7: is this is one of these things where like part

2516
02:03:14,040 --> 02:03:15,960
Speaker 7: of the reason that the new classical people took over

2517
02:03:16,000 --> 02:03:19,040
Speaker 7: in the first place was because they thought that they

2518
02:03:19,080 --> 02:03:21,440
Speaker 7: were right about this argument of like what caused the

2519
02:03:21,480 --> 02:03:27,080
Speaker 7: seventies economic collapse, which had like supposedly disproved Kanesianism. But

2520
02:03:27,120 --> 02:03:31,160
Speaker 7: then in this time period they got just obliterated, like

2521
02:03:31,800 --> 02:03:36,640
Speaker 7: they have taken an L the size of which, genuinely,

2522
02:03:36,840 --> 02:03:39,720
Speaker 7: I don't know if anyone in an academic field has

2523
02:03:39,800 --> 02:03:43,000
Speaker 7: ever taken a bigger L than these people did in

2524
02:03:43,040 --> 02:03:46,560
Speaker 7: this fight. They got just like beaten into pulp and

2525
02:03:46,600 --> 02:03:48,760
Speaker 7: it just didn't matter, like Nailmi.

2526
02:03:48,440 --> 02:03:51,240
Speaker 5: Wolf finding out live on air that her entire book

2527
02:03:51,320 --> 02:03:53,040
Speaker 5: was based on misunderstanding of a term.

2528
02:03:53,320 --> 02:03:57,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's it's like that shit like except this, this

2529
02:03:57,800 --> 02:03:59,880
Speaker 7: is like every economist.

2530
02:03:59,360 --> 02:04:01,480
Speaker 5: Except in this In this case, they went on to

2531
02:04:01,480 --> 02:04:03,320
Speaker 5: continue to produce work based.

2532
02:04:03,120 --> 02:04:03,720
Speaker 4: On that premise.

2533
02:04:03,920 --> 02:04:06,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, but this is the part of the

2534
02:04:06,560 --> 02:04:11,520
Speaker 7: story that like isn't in the accounts, you know, when

2535
02:04:11,600 --> 02:04:14,920
Speaker 7: Planet Money has to explain, like why the work of

2536
02:04:15,000 --> 02:04:19,000
Speaker 7: Joan Robinson, like isn't something that mainstream ECCONMYS pay attention to.

2537
02:04:19,240 --> 02:04:23,000
Speaker 10: Oh full circle, okay, yeah, that's where we were going.

2538
02:04:23,120 --> 02:04:25,400
Speaker 5: Yes, it's it's because.

2539
02:04:25,080 --> 02:04:28,520
Speaker 7: Like John Robinson had the temerity to ab a woman

2540
02:04:28,920 --> 02:04:32,200
Speaker 7: b B a leftist and seeing not be one of

2541
02:04:32,200 --> 02:04:36,879
Speaker 7: these like neoclassical freaks and and d she beat them.

2542
02:04:37,200 --> 02:04:39,480
Speaker 7: Like John Robinson is one of the major people in

2543
02:04:39,560 --> 02:04:40,040
Speaker 7: this fight.

2544
02:04:40,440 --> 02:04:42,160
Speaker 10: I should I should have had more faith that we

2545
02:04:42,160 --> 02:04:45,040
Speaker 10: were coming back around. I thought we were I thought

2546
02:04:45,040 --> 02:04:47,440
Speaker 10: we were lost. I was confused. No, I get it now.

2547
02:04:47,480 --> 02:04:49,120
Speaker 10: So when they were writing about like it's so crazy

2548
02:04:49,160 --> 02:04:52,840
Speaker 10: that nobody uses this term anymore, the underlying truth there

2549
02:04:53,120 --> 02:04:53,760
Speaker 10: is that they are.

2550
02:04:54,080 --> 02:04:56,200
Speaker 5: This is why lossing over this.

2551
02:04:56,320 --> 02:04:59,080
Speaker 10: The fact that the reason this term isn't better known

2552
02:04:59,480 --> 02:05:01,960
Speaker 10: is because they entire field of economics is based on

2553
02:05:02,240 --> 02:05:04,800
Speaker 10: suppressing challenging truths.

2554
02:05:05,440 --> 02:05:09,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, and there's one other aspect too, which is the

2555
02:05:09,120 --> 02:05:11,720
Speaker 7: economics is an example of how this works on like

2556
02:05:11,760 --> 02:05:14,880
Speaker 7: a small scale, right, But this this happens on a

2557
02:05:14,960 --> 02:05:18,240
Speaker 7: macro scale with just about everything that you consume, which

2558
02:05:18,280 --> 02:05:22,280
Speaker 7: is there are two models for sort of suppressing how

2559
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:25,320
Speaker 7: information spreads and how like you know how social moup

2560
02:05:25,320 --> 02:05:27,680
Speaker 7: has developed, where one you just suppress them or to

2561
02:05:28,080 --> 02:05:31,560
Speaker 7: you co opt them and you do what's called recuperation.

2562
02:05:32,080 --> 02:05:36,000
Speaker 7: And you know it is interesting, Like the concept monopsony

2563
02:05:36,960 --> 02:05:41,440
Speaker 7: will appear sometimes like like in like textbooks, but they'll

2564
02:05:41,480 --> 02:05:44,000
Speaker 7: just be like, oh, yeah, this is anotherything that can exist,

2565
02:05:44,320 --> 02:05:46,560
Speaker 7: and like monopolies can also exist. Let's go back to

2566
02:05:46,600 --> 02:05:49,240
Speaker 7: spending all of our time dealing with like a bunch

2567
02:05:49,240 --> 02:05:52,720
Speaker 7: of stuff that's incredibly fake. And they will strategically like

2568
02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:58,120
Speaker 7: misuse the concept of monopsony in order to deal with it,

2569
02:05:58,160 --> 02:06:01,320
Speaker 7: like as a critique the recouper rate, like the word,

2570
02:06:01,840 --> 02:06:05,440
Speaker 7: but then they won't use any of the political conclusions

2571
02:06:05,440 --> 02:06:05,680
Speaker 7: of it.

2572
02:06:05,920 --> 02:06:06,960
Speaker 5: That's clever of them.

2573
02:06:07,240 --> 02:06:09,400
Speaker 10: That's clever of them, so that you don't go looking

2574
02:06:09,440 --> 02:06:11,360
Speaker 10: for more about the term because you have it and

2575
02:06:11,400 --> 02:06:13,120
Speaker 10: it's defanged and you don't need to worry about it.

2576
02:06:13,240 --> 02:06:17,160
Speaker 14: Yeah, And the thing is that the political consequences of

2577
02:06:17,200 --> 02:06:19,400
Speaker 14: it is this is the thing I talked about at

2578
02:06:19,400 --> 02:06:21,120
Speaker 14: the beginning, which is like, yeah, I menopstmally as a

2579
02:06:21,160 --> 02:06:22,960
Speaker 14: concept is why you get paid one of the reasons

2580
02:06:23,000 --> 02:06:23,640
Speaker 14: you get paid, like.

2581
02:06:23,560 --> 02:06:27,200
Speaker 7: Shit, And Joan Robinson's inclusion is like, yeah, capitalism is

2582
02:06:27,200 --> 02:06:29,120
Speaker 7: an inherently exploited economic system.

2583
02:06:29,360 --> 02:06:33,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the logical conclusion there, right, Yeah, but that's

2584
02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:34,400
Speaker 5: not allowed.

2585
02:06:34,400 --> 02:06:39,000
Speaker 7: No, And so you know, like Robinson's legacy is that

2586
02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:41,840
Speaker 7: part of her work is co opted and recuperated in

2587
02:06:41,880 --> 02:06:45,240
Speaker 7: a way where they teach the tiniest part of it

2588
02:06:45,280 --> 02:06:48,040
Speaker 7: that can't be used challenge a system, and the part

2589
02:06:48,040 --> 02:06:51,720
Speaker 7: of it where she deals a kind of intellectual death

2590
02:06:51,760 --> 02:06:56,520
Speaker 7: blow to an entire field of economics that in like

2591
02:06:56,560 --> 02:07:00,240
Speaker 7: the history of academia. I don't know if any one

2592
02:07:00,240 --> 02:07:01,440
Speaker 7: has ever been so decisive.

2593
02:07:01,480 --> 02:07:04,680
Speaker 5: We defeated intellectually, and yet they just sort of brushed

2594
02:07:04,720 --> 02:07:07,560
Speaker 5: it off and moved on. Yeah, which I feel like

2595
02:07:07,560 --> 02:07:10,320
Speaker 5: that is so damning, right that you're just I mean,

2596
02:07:10,960 --> 02:07:13,400
Speaker 5: you've just admitted that everything you've ever said is based

2597
02:07:13,440 --> 02:07:15,880
Speaker 5: on nothing. If you can just disregard this.

2598
02:07:16,200 --> 02:07:20,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, God, I can't find the exact quote, but Samielson

2599
02:07:20,520 --> 02:07:23,360
Speaker 7: has this line about how like they need to just

2600
02:07:23,400 --> 02:07:25,200
Speaker 7: treat it as an article of faith. That this can

2601
02:07:25,240 --> 02:07:28,480
Speaker 7: be done, and they just kept going and it.

2602
02:07:28,400 --> 02:07:30,600
Speaker 5: Is just so you can't tell me this is a

2603
02:07:30,680 --> 02:07:33,600
Speaker 5: science if you're like, well, it's just based on you

2604
02:07:33,720 --> 02:07:34,680
Speaker 5: just have to have faith.

2605
02:07:34,560 --> 02:07:35,440
Speaker 1: You just have to believe.

2606
02:07:35,600 --> 02:07:38,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean the economy has always put on tinker

2607
02:07:38,000 --> 02:07:40,000
Speaker 10: Bell rules, right, Like you have to believe or it

2608
02:07:40,040 --> 02:07:40,600
Speaker 10: won't work.

2609
02:07:40,920 --> 02:07:41,920
Speaker 5: You have to clap for her.

2610
02:07:42,440 --> 02:07:45,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, in order for the entire system that these people

2611
02:07:45,520 --> 02:07:49,640
Speaker 7: are paid to propagate, because this entire school of economics

2612
02:07:49,720 --> 02:07:52,960
Speaker 7: is created by a bunch of right wing billionaires to

2613
02:07:53,000 --> 02:07:55,840
Speaker 7: get them together in order to push against like both

2614
02:07:55,880 --> 02:07:58,760
Speaker 7: communism and like the Kynesian idea they should pay taxes.

2615
02:07:59,080 --> 02:08:00,840
Speaker 7: This is something also, I guess I kind of want

2616
02:08:00,880 --> 02:08:03,040
Speaker 7: to conclude about this. It's like there are a lot

2617
02:08:03,080 --> 02:08:05,880
Speaker 7: of times where you see, like like a newspaper columnists

2618
02:08:05,880 --> 02:08:08,040
Speaker 7: and they're saying the most unhinged thing you've ever seen,

2619
02:08:08,480 --> 02:08:10,440
Speaker 7: or like you know, I'm gonna take I take a

2620
02:08:10,560 --> 02:08:13,760
Speaker 7: very incendiary example, and you look at like Ezra Kleine,

2621
02:08:14,480 --> 02:08:17,240
Speaker 7: and Ezra Kleine is like being like, oh, you have

2622
02:08:17,280 --> 02:08:20,120
Speaker 7: to like take the ideas of like some random fucking

2623
02:08:20,200 --> 02:08:24,000
Speaker 7: nazi seriously, and no, I don't, No, you don't. But

2624
02:08:24,040 --> 02:08:27,680
Speaker 7: the but the reason he's saying this, it does it's

2625
02:08:27,760 --> 02:08:29,880
Speaker 7: not even about what he believes.

2626
02:08:30,120 --> 02:08:31,360
Speaker 5: Oh, these people believe nothing.

2627
02:08:31,560 --> 02:08:33,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, this is what they're being paid to say because

2628
02:08:34,000 --> 02:08:37,560
Speaker 7: Klein's job is to is to act as a way

2629
02:08:37,640 --> 02:08:40,960
Speaker 7: to sell like fascist tech oligarchy to liberals. Like and

2630
02:08:41,000 --> 02:08:42,120
Speaker 7: this is the same thing with like you get these

2631
02:08:42,120 --> 02:08:44,960
Speaker 7: newspaper columnists who'll like say, like the most unhinged shit

2632
02:08:45,720 --> 02:08:49,000
Speaker 7: you've ever seen. And yeah, they're saying that because it's

2633
02:08:49,040 --> 02:08:52,440
Speaker 7: their job to produce this, right, Like, they're not acting

2634
02:08:52,480 --> 02:08:56,520
Speaker 7: as individual people. They're acting as it cutouts and projections

2635
02:08:56,640 --> 02:09:00,200
Speaker 7: of like the people who they've been hired.

2636
02:09:00,160 --> 02:09:05,360
Speaker 5: By, and those people have a monopsony on opinion. Yeah,

2637
02:09:05,360 --> 02:09:08,680
Speaker 5: well every opinion, every opinion writer is saying the dumbest

2638
02:09:08,720 --> 02:09:10,720
Speaker 5: shit you've ever heard because of monopsis.

2639
02:09:11,200 --> 02:09:13,840
Speaker 7: Well yeah, I mean, but like literally it's because they

2640
02:09:13,840 --> 02:09:16,600
Speaker 7: can they can choose who the fuck to hire, right,

2641
02:09:17,400 --> 02:09:20,840
Speaker 7: Like that's the actual reason. And you know, and like

2642
02:09:20,960 --> 02:09:23,160
Speaker 7: journalism is one of these things where it's like you see,

2643
02:09:23,160 --> 02:09:25,320
Speaker 7: newspapers have an incredible amount of power because there's like

2644
02:09:25,400 --> 02:09:29,160
Speaker 7: seven fucking newspapers left and if you want to do journalism,

2645
02:09:29,480 --> 02:09:33,040
Speaker 7: like you're fucked. You either like fall in line and

2646
02:09:33,240 --> 02:09:38,760
Speaker 7: accept them paying you like absolute dogshit, or you go unemployed,

2647
02:09:38,960 --> 02:09:41,440
Speaker 7: or you're like one of the very few people who

2648
02:09:41,520 --> 02:09:43,680
Speaker 7: was able to like make a living doing this independently,

2649
02:09:43,760 --> 02:09:44,120
Speaker 7: but like.

2650
02:09:44,240 --> 02:09:47,960
Speaker 5: Or you're us we found a way, yeah, or like

2651
02:09:48,840 --> 02:09:52,200
Speaker 5: a rich and successful podcaster picks you out and goes, hey,

2652
02:09:52,200 --> 02:09:54,360
Speaker 5: we're gonna pay you to do this, right, Like No,

2653
02:09:54,400 --> 02:09:55,720
Speaker 5: But I think I think about that all the time,

2654
02:09:55,720 --> 02:09:58,400
Speaker 5: that it really this is such a unicorn job because

2655
02:09:58,440 --> 02:10:01,400
Speaker 5: almost every job in media you do, you have to

2656
02:10:01,960 --> 02:10:03,360
Speaker 5: you have to suck it up and eat the ship,

2657
02:10:03,400 --> 02:10:05,240
Speaker 5: and you have to say the dumbest thing anyone's ever heard,

2658
02:10:05,280 --> 02:10:07,200
Speaker 5: because that's how you keep your job, and that's not

2659
02:10:07,280 --> 02:10:08,800
Speaker 5: our reality. And I'm so grateful for that.

2660
02:10:09,400 --> 02:10:12,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think I think that's a good place to end.

2661
02:10:12,560 --> 02:10:14,360
Speaker 7: I guess I don't know. We're going to end on

2662
02:10:14,400 --> 02:10:17,240
Speaker 7: a hopeful note, which is we got well, okay, We're

2663
02:10:17,240 --> 02:10:19,200
Speaker 7: gonna end on the cynical note, which is, like the

2664
02:10:19,240 --> 02:10:21,800
Speaker 7: only way to have an even sort of good job

2665
02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:25,360
Speaker 7: in this economy where employment is controlled by employers is

2666
02:10:25,400 --> 02:10:28,440
Speaker 7: to get incredibly mined luck, like be the most lucky

2667
02:10:28,480 --> 02:10:29,760
Speaker 7: person in the entire world.

2668
02:10:29,880 --> 02:10:33,640
Speaker 15: Yeah, so, I don't know if if you want to

2669
02:10:33,680 --> 02:10:35,360
Speaker 15: live in a world where you don't have to win

2670
02:10:35,400 --> 02:10:37,560
Speaker 15: the lottery in order to have like a pretty well

2671
02:10:37,600 --> 02:10:40,280
Speaker 15: paid in order to I am so close to hitting

2672
02:10:40,320 --> 02:10:42,880
Speaker 15: the median salary of assists white dude in the US.

2673
02:10:43,080 --> 02:10:46,360
Speaker 7: I'm so close. I can see, I can taste it.

2674
02:10:46,440 --> 02:10:47,040
Speaker 7: If you want that.

2675
02:10:47,240 --> 02:10:48,880
Speaker 5: I love my union podcasting jobs.

2676
02:10:48,920 --> 02:10:51,160
Speaker 7: Got you gotta win the lottery or you got to

2677
02:10:51,200 --> 02:10:53,480
Speaker 7: build a world where that's not how any of the

2678
02:10:53,520 --> 02:10:56,240
Speaker 7: shit works, which is what Jolan Robinson would have wanted.

2679
02:10:56,920 --> 02:11:11,240
Speaker 12: Sorry, Joanne.

2680
02:11:12,040 --> 02:11:16,200
Speaker 3: Nostalgia is a relatively new feeling for me. I'm in

2681
02:11:16,240 --> 02:11:19,440
Speaker 3: my mid twenties, and for the first time, I'm seeing

2682
02:11:19,480 --> 02:11:22,920
Speaker 3: stuff from when I was a kid come back in style.

2683
02:11:23,800 --> 02:11:26,720
Speaker 3: We are fully in the throes of two thousands of nostalgia.

2684
02:11:27,080 --> 02:11:31,440
Speaker 3: I'm talking emo, Indie Slea's denim y two K standard

2685
02:11:31,440 --> 02:11:35,280
Speaker 3: definition digital video and one of my favorites, the bubbly

2686
02:11:35,440 --> 02:11:40,440
Speaker 3: frutiger aero design style that partially inspired Apple's new liquid glass.

2687
02:11:40,480 --> 02:11:43,440
Speaker 3: But now that our cultural nostalgia cycle has cut up

2688
02:11:43,480 --> 02:11:46,000
Speaker 3: to when I was a kid, I'm starting to realize

2689
02:11:46,320 --> 02:11:49,680
Speaker 3: what kinds of things I'm nostalgic about. One of the

2690
02:11:49,680 --> 02:11:53,280
Speaker 3: biggest is two thousand and eight's Lego Batman the video game.

2691
02:11:59,240 --> 02:12:03,760
Speaker 3: This game is great, no dialogue, Danny Elfman, music, simple,

2692
02:12:03,800 --> 02:12:07,320
Speaker 3: classic designs. This game is what introduced me to the

2693
02:12:07,360 --> 02:12:11,080
Speaker 3: gothic art deco world of Gotham City and the dark

2694
02:12:11,120 --> 02:12:16,480
Speaker 3: carnival of Batman characters growing up around the prairies of Saskatchewan, Canada.

2695
02:12:16,640 --> 02:12:20,160
Speaker 3: This game was my window into the big city with

2696
02:12:20,200 --> 02:12:24,440
Speaker 3: its cathedrals and skyscrapers, and likely planted the desire to

2697
02:12:24,800 --> 02:12:28,320
Speaker 3: one day move to New York City. After a twelve

2698
02:12:28,400 --> 02:12:32,520
Speaker 3: year hiatus, the fourth game in the Lego Batman series

2699
02:12:32,800 --> 02:12:37,640
Speaker 3: comes out today, Lego Batman Legacy of the Dark Night,

2700
02:12:38,240 --> 02:12:41,720
Speaker 3: a new installment that blends stories from across the Batman films,

2701
02:12:41,840 --> 02:12:46,120
Speaker 3: shows and comics, featuring classic Lego puzzle gameplay with the

2702
02:12:46,160 --> 02:12:50,000
Speaker 3: movement and combat of the rock Steady Arkham games. I

2703
02:12:50,040 --> 02:12:52,560
Speaker 3: actually got to play a demo version of this new

2704
02:12:52,640 --> 02:12:57,120
Speaker 3: Lego Batman game last October when I attended New York

2705
02:12:57,240 --> 02:13:00,320
Speaker 3: Comic Con, the largest pop culture convention on the East

2706
02:13:00,320 --> 02:13:03,880
Speaker 3: Coast and the most attended in North America. New York

2707
02:13:03,880 --> 02:13:08,360
Speaker 3: Comic Con is a four day fan fest for Everything Superheroes, comics,

2708
02:13:08,440 --> 02:13:10,960
Speaker 3: sci fi, and fantasy, held once a year at the

2709
02:13:11,040 --> 02:13:15,600
Speaker 3: Javits Convention Center in Manhattan. This is it could happen here.

2710
02:13:15,680 --> 02:13:19,080
Speaker 3: I'm Garrison Davis. Part of my intention in attending New

2711
02:13:19,120 --> 02:13:21,840
Speaker 3: York Comic Con was to gauge how the big media

2712
02:13:21,880 --> 02:13:25,000
Speaker 3: companies and pop culture in general was reacting to the

2713
02:13:25,040 --> 02:13:28,720
Speaker 3: movement against wokeness, which was a large force throughout twenty

2714
02:13:28,800 --> 02:13:32,160
Speaker 3: twenty five. One of the first panels attended was the

2715
02:13:32,200 --> 02:13:36,160
Speaker 3: tenth anniversary panel for the TV show Mister Robot, with

2716
02:13:36,320 --> 02:13:39,960
Speaker 3: creator Sam Smil and stars Raymon Malick and Christian Slater.

2717
02:13:40,960 --> 02:13:43,920
Speaker 3: Most of the panel was spent reminiscing on the show's production,

2718
02:13:44,160 --> 02:13:46,880
Speaker 3: which was probably what most fans want out of a panel,

2719
02:13:47,280 --> 02:13:51,040
Speaker 3: but Mister Robot is a relatively political show. To his credit,

2720
02:13:51,360 --> 02:13:54,200
Speaker 3: Ismael discussed the show's origins as an anti capitalist and

2721
02:13:54,280 --> 02:13:57,200
Speaker 3: anti corporate hacker story inspired by the two thousand and

2722
02:13:57,200 --> 02:13:59,000
Speaker 3: eight recession and the Arab Spring.

2723
02:14:00,080 --> 02:14:03,040
Speaker 16: I took away from that is that there was the

2724
02:14:03,080 --> 02:14:06,320
Speaker 16: world felt in crisis. How naive was I back then

2725
02:14:06,520 --> 02:14:11,400
Speaker 16: that that that was what crisis was like? But uh,

2726
02:14:11,480 --> 02:14:15,880
Speaker 16: and and that these young people in not just Egypt,

2727
02:14:15,880 --> 02:14:18,520
Speaker 16: but in the entire Middle East was using technology to

2728
02:14:19,480 --> 02:14:23,640
Speaker 16: organize and start a revolution, and that really inspired a

2729
02:14:23,680 --> 02:14:27,320
Speaker 16: lot of what of what the story of mister Robot

2730
02:14:27,400 --> 02:14:30,040
Speaker 16: and and specifically the character of Elliott.

2731
02:14:30,600 --> 02:14:34,360
Speaker 3: Smel went on to call the show's imagined dystopia a

2732
02:14:34,440 --> 02:14:38,680
Speaker 3: quote unquote Pleasantville compared to our current political situation.

2733
02:14:39,240 --> 02:14:42,160
Speaker 16: Honestly, I feel like the show we did was not

2734
02:14:42,440 --> 02:14:46,840
Speaker 16: nearly as fucked up as what it would be like today.

2735
02:14:47,240 --> 02:14:57,880
Speaker 16: I mean, it's like Pleasantville now.

2736
02:14:58,120 --> 02:14:58,400
Speaker 7: I mean.

2737
02:15:00,520 --> 02:15:05,080
Speaker 3: At a panel for the Tina Romero queer zombie movie

2738
02:15:05,200 --> 02:15:09,960
Speaker 3: Queens of the Dead, transactor Jack Haven referenced then recent

2739
02:15:10,080 --> 02:15:14,760
Speaker 3: and somewhat misleading reporting that the FBI was declaring trans

2740
02:15:14,880 --> 02:15:19,760
Speaker 3: people as terrorists. In another panel, a trans comic artist

2741
02:15:19,960 --> 02:15:24,440
Speaker 3: also mentioned that trans people were being designated as violent extremists.

2742
02:15:25,040 --> 02:15:28,720
Speaker 3: This artist also discussed queer censorship in comics. She had

2743
02:15:28,760 --> 02:15:31,760
Speaker 3: drawn a cover for the DC Comics series of a

2744
02:15:31,840 --> 02:15:36,120
Speaker 3: character called Red Hood, but this cover was never released

2745
02:15:36,560 --> 02:15:41,520
Speaker 3: because the comic series was canceled by DC after the writer. Also,

2746
02:15:41,560 --> 02:15:45,040
Speaker 3: a trans woman made two posts joking about the death

2747
02:15:45,120 --> 02:15:49,760
Speaker 3: of Charlie Kirk. Meanwhile, one of the Siskuy artists for

2748
02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:54,320
Speaker 3: the hit series Absolute Batman. Drew art of Absolute Batman

2749
02:15:54,560 --> 02:15:57,960
Speaker 3: snapping the neck of an ice agent literally at New

2750
02:15:58,040 --> 02:16:01,360
Speaker 3: York Comic Con, and this artist continues to draw covers

2751
02:16:01,440 --> 02:16:05,400
Speaker 3: for the series. Speaking of Batman, I also attended an

2752
02:16:05,440 --> 02:16:11,400
Speaker 3: industry panel on Batman animation hosted by directors, character designers,

2753
02:16:11,440 --> 02:16:15,640
Speaker 3: and showrunners James Tucker, creator of Batman, The Brave and

2754
02:16:15,680 --> 02:16:18,280
Speaker 3: the Bold, and a producer for the show Batman Keeped.

2755
02:16:18,280 --> 02:16:22,640
Speaker 3: Crusader mentioned having to ignore the anti woke backlash some

2756
02:16:22,840 --> 02:16:27,000
Speaker 3: recent shows received for depicting certain characters as black or

2757
02:16:27,040 --> 02:16:30,840
Speaker 3: gender swapped. Nerd culture has been dealing with this stuff

2758
02:16:30,880 --> 02:16:34,120
Speaker 3: for a while. Gamer gait was a contributing factor to

2759
02:16:34,240 --> 02:16:37,520
Speaker 3: the rise of the all Right, and since then pop

2760
02:16:37,560 --> 02:16:40,640
Speaker 3: culture fandom has been one of the main battlegrounds in

2761
02:16:40,680 --> 02:16:44,640
Speaker 3: which the culture war is waged. At New York Comic Con,

2762
02:16:45,040 --> 02:16:48,720
Speaker 3: While hints of the domestic political climate did slip through

2763
02:16:48,800 --> 02:16:52,080
Speaker 3: in brief moments during panels, the prevailing mode of the

2764
02:16:52,080 --> 02:16:56,720
Speaker 3: convention was falling back on comic fantasy as an escape inwards,

2765
02:16:57,120 --> 02:17:01,119
Speaker 3: but not really an escape out. It's like your parents

2766
02:17:01,160 --> 02:17:04,160
Speaker 3: are fighting and rather than leaving the house or trying

2767
02:17:04,200 --> 02:17:08,080
Speaker 3: to intervene. You crawl into your closet and hide with

2768
02:17:08,120 --> 02:17:12,240
Speaker 3: your stuffed animals, video games, and comic books, soothing yourself

2769
02:17:12,240 --> 02:17:16,440
Speaker 3: with the comfortable familiar. While walking around the convention floor,

2770
02:17:16,760 --> 02:17:20,360
Speaker 3: I felt like I was a ghost trapped. In twenty nineteen,

2771
02:17:21,160 --> 02:17:26,000
Speaker 3: this particular form of nerdy superhero fandom culture was stuck

2772
02:17:26,040 --> 02:17:30,279
Speaker 3: in stasis, living in the undead husk of the MCU.

2773
02:17:31,959 --> 02:17:34,960
Speaker 3: The main thing differentiating New York Comic Con from a

2774
02:17:35,040 --> 02:17:40,760
Speaker 3: pure pre pandemic Avengers Endgame era time capsule was how

2775
02:17:40,840 --> 02:17:44,760
Speaker 3: much it felt like an anime convention. I attended my

2776
02:17:44,760 --> 02:17:47,240
Speaker 3: fair share of comic cons in the twenty teens, but

2777
02:17:47,360 --> 02:17:49,480
Speaker 3: the volume of anime stuff at New York Comic Con

2778
02:17:50,000 --> 02:17:53,280
Speaker 3: really surprised me. New York Comic Con itself has had

2779
02:17:53,280 --> 02:17:57,840
Speaker 3: a troubled history with anime. Shortly after New York Comic

2780
02:17:57,840 --> 02:18:00,720
Speaker 3: Con was created in twenty and six, the same company

2781
02:18:00,760 --> 02:18:04,440
Speaker 3: behind the convention also started an anime con called New

2782
02:18:04,560 --> 02:18:07,920
Speaker 3: York Anime Festival. But as the New York Comic Con

2783
02:18:08,040 --> 02:18:10,720
Speaker 3: rose in popularity, it started to eat away at New

2784
02:18:10,800 --> 02:18:14,120
Speaker 3: York Anime Festival. The two conventions merged in twenty ten,

2785
02:18:14,760 --> 02:18:17,920
Speaker 3: but that meant that superheroes and anime had to compete

2786
02:18:18,000 --> 02:18:21,879
Speaker 3: for time and space at the convention, and around twenty ten,

2787
02:18:22,280 --> 02:18:26,720
Speaker 3: superheroes were winning that battle. To quote Anime News Network,

2788
02:18:27,160 --> 02:18:30,160
Speaker 3: the New York Anime Festival was quote slowly and quite

2789
02:18:30,240 --> 02:18:33,320
Speaker 3: literally shoved into the basement at the job At Center

2790
02:18:33,400 --> 02:18:36,920
Speaker 3: over the years by New York Comic Con management until

2791
02:18:37,000 --> 02:18:41,520
Speaker 3: it ceased to exist altogether unquote. Come in twenty twelve,

2792
02:18:41,800 --> 02:18:45,519
Speaker 3: the New York Anime Festival component was phased out altogether.

2793
02:18:46,520 --> 02:18:50,039
Speaker 3: At the time, anime and manga were not doing so

2794
02:18:50,200 --> 02:18:53,480
Speaker 3: well in the United States, having just suffered a market

2795
02:18:53,520 --> 02:18:56,720
Speaker 3: crash due to a combination of factors related to the

2796
02:18:56,720 --> 02:19:01,360
Speaker 3: Great Recession, the pivot from DVD to digital, the bankruptcy

2797
02:19:01,400 --> 02:19:05,440
Speaker 3: of the Borders bookstore, the shutdown of the US distributor

2798
02:19:05,520 --> 02:19:09,680
Speaker 3: Bandai Entertainment, and manga publisher Tokyo Pop, followed by the

2799
02:19:09,720 --> 02:19:14,440
Speaker 3: twenty eleven Tokohu earthquake, which disrupted manga and anime production.

2800
02:19:15,320 --> 02:19:18,400
Speaker 3: So it wasn't at all surprising that Western media and

2801
02:19:18,440 --> 02:19:22,600
Speaker 3: the then ascended superhero genre dominated the New York Comic

2802
02:19:22,640 --> 02:19:26,920
Speaker 3: Con show floor. But now, oh, how the tables have turned.

2803
02:19:27,840 --> 02:19:31,720
Speaker 3: Come twenty twenty five, the exhibition boots for major Western

2804
02:19:31,760 --> 02:19:35,520
Speaker 3: pop culture companies were outnumbered and dwarfed in size by

2805
02:19:35,600 --> 02:19:41,520
Speaker 3: Japanese animation, manga and video game booths. This humiliation wasn't

2806
02:19:41,560 --> 02:19:45,680
Speaker 3: isolated to the show floor. Even before entering the exhibition space,

2807
02:19:46,120 --> 02:19:49,039
Speaker 3: huge banners hung in front of the main entrance for

2808
02:19:49,200 --> 02:19:53,600
Speaker 3: anime like My Hero, Academia, Digimon Gundam and the new

2809
02:19:53,680 --> 02:19:57,680
Speaker 3: manga Love Bullet banner ads for Crunchy Rolls New Manga

2810
02:19:57,720 --> 02:20:01,240
Speaker 3: Reading Platform covered the glass walls at the Javits Convention Center.

2811
02:20:01,879 --> 02:20:05,199
Speaker 3: The only banner that rivaled the anime ones in size

2812
02:20:05,760 --> 02:20:09,200
Speaker 3: was for the Anne Rice Gay Vampire Show on AMC.

2813
02:20:10,440 --> 02:20:12,879
Speaker 3: Once you got to the show floor, the company with

2814
02:20:12,920 --> 02:20:17,600
Speaker 3: the biggest single presence was Japanese entertainment company Bandai Namco.

2815
02:20:18,240 --> 02:20:22,240
Speaker 3: This was by a large margin. The Bandai Namco presence

2816
02:20:22,320 --> 02:20:27,200
Speaker 3: was significantly bigger than the Marvel and DC booths combined.

2817
02:20:28,040 --> 02:20:30,760
Speaker 3: Most but not all, of the Japanese and South Korean

2818
02:20:30,760 --> 02:20:34,840
Speaker 3: companies were concentrated in the middle of the exhibition floor,

2819
02:20:35,160 --> 02:20:37,920
Speaker 3: next to the main entrance. On the north side. Toy

2820
02:20:38,000 --> 02:20:41,800
Speaker 3: Animation of Dragon Ball and One Piece Fame had their

2821
02:20:41,800 --> 02:20:44,720
Speaker 3: booth right at the show floor entrance. And it was

2822
02:20:44,760 --> 02:20:49,279
Speaker 3: bigger than the Nickelodeon, Avatar and Paramount Star Trek booths combined.

2823
02:20:50,120 --> 02:20:54,200
Speaker 3: The Adult Swim and HBO Max booths were even smaller combined,

2824
02:20:54,360 --> 02:20:57,320
Speaker 3: They took up significantly less floor space and were less

2825
02:20:57,360 --> 02:20:59,880
Speaker 3: busy than the exhibition booth for the Japanese and a

2826
02:21:00,320 --> 02:21:03,680
Speaker 3: company behind Chainsawman, Jujitsu, Kaizen and the Attack on Titan

2827
02:21:03,680 --> 02:21:07,720
Speaker 3: Finale Studio Mappa, who had a booth at New York

2828
02:21:07,760 --> 02:21:11,680
Speaker 3: Comic Con for the very first time. Anime and manga

2829
02:21:11,720 --> 02:21:15,280
Speaker 3: distributor Crunchy Role had a larger presence on the show

2830
02:21:15,320 --> 02:21:19,520
Speaker 3: floor than the combined presence of publishing giants Scholastic and

2831
02:21:19,600 --> 02:21:23,320
Speaker 3: Penguin Random House. The Crunchy Role booth was also bigger

2832
02:21:23,360 --> 02:21:27,480
Speaker 3: than the one for DC Comics. Manga publisher Viz Media

2833
02:21:27,800 --> 02:21:30,000
Speaker 3: has maintained a large presence on the show floor for

2834
02:21:30,040 --> 02:21:34,800
Speaker 3: the past decade. Viz Media is the largest physical publisher

2835
02:21:34,840 --> 02:21:38,480
Speaker 3: of graphic novels in the United States with twenty five

2836
02:21:38,520 --> 02:21:41,080
Speaker 3: percent of the market share, and is owned by the

2837
02:21:41,120 --> 02:21:43,960
Speaker 3: same company that publishes shown in Jump, which is the

2838
02:21:44,280 --> 02:21:48,560
Speaker 3: largest physical comic publisher in the world. The biggest global

2839
02:21:48,560 --> 02:21:52,320
Speaker 3: publisher of comics in general is the South Korean digital

2840
02:21:52,360 --> 02:21:57,360
Speaker 3: comic platform Webtune, who also had a comparatively large exhibition booth,

2841
02:21:57,760 --> 02:22:02,000
Speaker 3: as did Japanese video game companies Nami and Capcom. The

2842
02:22:02,080 --> 02:22:05,160
Speaker 3: video game Ninja Gaidan four had a booth to itself,

2843
02:22:05,680 --> 02:22:08,920
Speaker 3: and collectible card game company Boushi Road had a booth

2844
02:22:09,040 --> 02:22:12,720
Speaker 3: rivaling that of card game Titan Wizards of the Coast.

2845
02:22:13,640 --> 02:22:16,920
Speaker 3: Even the sort of third party merch slot that you

2846
02:22:17,000 --> 02:22:19,959
Speaker 3: find at these types of conventions was selling more and

2847
02:22:20,040 --> 02:22:24,160
Speaker 3: more anime stuff than I'd seen in previous years. Looking

2848
02:22:24,160 --> 02:22:26,680
Speaker 3: back at the New York Comic Con twenty eighteen show

2849
02:22:26,760 --> 02:22:31,080
Speaker 3: floor map, Bandai Mco. Had a much smaller booth, about

2850
02:22:31,080 --> 02:22:34,560
Speaker 3: the same size as Dark Horse Comics. This was less

2851
02:22:34,600 --> 02:22:38,360
Speaker 3: than one quarter of the size of Bandai's show floor

2852
02:22:38,400 --> 02:22:42,840
Speaker 3: presence in twenty twenty five. Besides Bandai, the other animeor

2853
02:22:42,920 --> 02:22:46,240
Speaker 3: manga related booths in twenty eighteen were for Dragon Ball,

2854
02:22:46,440 --> 02:22:50,240
Speaker 3: Square Enix, and Viz Media. Looking back at the other

2855
02:22:50,360 --> 02:22:53,480
Speaker 3: large booths from twenty eighteen feels like a snapshot from

2856
02:22:53,520 --> 02:22:59,039
Speaker 3: a bygone age. Comedy Central, Rooster Teeth, Shira, Funko Pop,

2857
02:22:59,320 --> 02:23:04,440
Speaker 3: and the TV channel. Of these, only Funko still had

2858
02:23:04,440 --> 02:23:07,680
Speaker 3: a booth in twenty twenty five, and a much smaller

2859
02:23:07,720 --> 02:23:10,840
Speaker 3: one at that as the company has suffered a massive

2860
02:23:10,879 --> 02:23:13,920
Speaker 3: drop in sales and what was once a pop culture

2861
02:23:13,959 --> 02:23:17,400
Speaker 3: giant is now in severe financial stress.

2862
02:23:19,400 --> 02:23:21,760
Speaker 5: It could happen here, well, return after.

2863
02:23:21,520 --> 02:23:27,959
Speaker 4: These messages we now returned.

2864
02:23:28,240 --> 02:23:29,279
Speaker 7: It could happen here.

2865
02:23:31,000 --> 02:23:34,840
Speaker 5: Outside the comic con environment. I have seen anecdotal evidence

2866
02:23:34,879 --> 02:23:41,160
Speaker 5: of animes growing popularity. Besides random Instagram reels or TikTok videos,

2867
02:23:41,200 --> 02:23:44,880
Speaker 5: the most common thing I see people watching while riding

2868
02:23:44,959 --> 02:23:49,360
Speaker 5: the subway is anime. When I was in Berlin last

2869
02:23:49,360 --> 02:23:53,439
Speaker 5: October covering a convention, on my way back to the Airbnb,

2870
02:23:54,120 --> 02:23:58,160
Speaker 5: I came across a group of about fifty people cause

2871
02:23:58,240 --> 02:24:02,440
Speaker 5: playing chainsaw Man because that night the chainsaw Man movie

2872
02:24:02,840 --> 02:24:07,360
Speaker 5: released in German theaters. Most of the costumes worn at

2873
02:24:07,400 --> 02:24:11,480
Speaker 5: a weekend Halloween party at the mood Ring nightclub in Brooklyn,

2874
02:24:12,120 --> 02:24:16,440
Speaker 5: We're from anime. Also fun fact, Mayor old candidate zarmm

2875
02:24:16,520 --> 02:24:20,080
Speaker 5: Donnie made an appearance at this party ahead of the

2876
02:24:20,200 --> 02:24:24,280
Speaker 5: upcoming election. US Olympic figure skater and gold medalist and

2877
02:24:24,320 --> 02:24:28,320
Speaker 5: Listen Lou talked about anime during interviews at the Olympics

2878
02:24:28,600 --> 02:24:32,080
Speaker 5: and was seen carrying around a chainsaw Man plushy your

2879
02:24:32,120 --> 02:24:32,760
Speaker 5: top five anime.

2880
02:24:32,959 --> 02:24:35,240
Speaker 11: Okay, I'm not going to rank these like in their

2881
02:24:35,440 --> 02:24:38,119
Speaker 11: exact places, but Jujitsu guys and Chainsawman for sure.

2882
02:24:38,320 --> 02:24:41,199
Speaker 1: A new chapter dropped today, Actually Today's big day.

2883
02:24:41,240 --> 02:24:44,840
Speaker 4: Big day reader, Yes, okay, attack on Titan.

2884
02:24:46,240 --> 02:24:47,000
Speaker 7: Was airon Justified.

2885
02:24:48,520 --> 02:24:54,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, Madoka Magica and I think it's like could be

2886
02:24:54,480 --> 02:24:58,560
Speaker 4: forgetting some but m soa.

2887
02:25:00,120 --> 02:25:01,160
Speaker 1: Graduation.

2888
02:25:01,760 --> 02:25:05,760
Speaker 3: But does this perceived rise in popularity actually reflect in

2889
02:25:05,879 --> 02:25:11,160
Speaker 3: sales well. In September, the Demon Slayer movie Infinity Castle

2890
02:25:11,560 --> 02:25:14,600
Speaker 3: won the US box office with a seventy million dollar

2891
02:25:14,720 --> 02:25:20,720
Speaker 3: opening weekend, eventually earning almost eight hundred million dollars worldwide,

2892
02:25:21,120 --> 02:25:23,600
Speaker 3: becoming the seventh highest grossing film of twenty twenty five

2893
02:25:24,080 --> 02:25:28,440
Speaker 3: and the highest grossing international film in the United States,

2894
02:25:28,480 --> 02:25:32,440
Speaker 3: surpassing the twenty five year record held by Crouching Tiger

2895
02:25:32,520 --> 02:25:36,560
Speaker 3: and Dragon. In October, the chainsaw Man movie opened number

2896
02:25:36,560 --> 02:25:40,920
Speaker 3: one at the US box office, beating the Bruce Springsteen

2897
02:25:41,040 --> 02:25:45,959
Speaker 3: biopic starring Jeremy Allen White, which no one really saw.

2898
02:25:46,640 --> 02:25:50,400
Speaker 3: The chainsaw Man movie grossed almost two hundred million dollars worldwide.

2899
02:25:50,440 --> 02:25:53,560
Speaker 3: For the past eight years, Netflix has been heavily investing

2900
02:25:53,560 --> 02:25:57,560
Speaker 3: in anime. Last summer, Netflix claimed that anime is watched

2901
02:25:57,600 --> 02:26:02,160
Speaker 3: by half its global users. In twenty twenty five, Netflix

2902
02:26:02,280 --> 02:26:06,440
Speaker 3: users watched almost nine billion hours of anime, a ten

2903
02:26:06,480 --> 02:26:10,600
Speaker 3: and a half percent increase from twenty twenty four. In fact,

2904
02:26:10,640 --> 02:26:14,080
Speaker 3: the rate of viewership growth for anime on Netflix is

2905
02:26:14,280 --> 02:26:18,240
Speaker 3: ten times that of all other content on the platform.

2906
02:26:18,959 --> 02:26:22,080
Speaker 3: In January of twenty twenty six, Netflix announced a new

2907
02:26:22,120 --> 02:26:26,480
Speaker 3: deal with anime studio Mapa to exclusively stream a slate

2908
02:26:26,560 --> 02:26:31,440
Speaker 3: of original Mapa shows. Polygon and Vox Media pulled over

2909
02:26:31,480 --> 02:26:34,720
Speaker 3: four thousand people in twenty twenty four, and forty two

2910
02:26:34,800 --> 02:26:38,600
Speaker 3: percent of gen Z participants in the US said that

2911
02:26:38,680 --> 02:26:42,640
Speaker 3: they watched anime every week. But It's not just anime.

2912
02:26:43,240 --> 02:26:47,840
Speaker 3: Manga exploded in international popularity over the pandemic and continues

2913
02:26:47,959 --> 02:26:53,280
Speaker 3: to out sell American comics domestically. Manga sales have quadrupled

2914
02:26:53,440 --> 02:26:57,040
Speaker 3: in the US since twenty twenty, reaching a yearly market

2915
02:26:57,160 --> 02:27:01,280
Speaker 3: value of about one point three billion dollars by twenty

2916
02:27:01,280 --> 02:27:05,440
Speaker 3: twenty three. Of the forty four point seven million graphic

2917
02:27:05,520 --> 02:27:10,920
Speaker 3: novels sold by American bookstore chains and online sellers, twenty

2918
02:27:11,000 --> 02:27:15,800
Speaker 3: one point eight million were manga. That's almost fifty percent

2919
02:27:15,920 --> 02:27:19,400
Speaker 3: of sales. Coming in second place was comics for kids,

2920
02:27:19,480 --> 02:27:23,080
Speaker 3: which made up about thirty eight percent of sales approximately

2921
02:27:23,240 --> 02:27:27,280
Speaker 3: seventeen million copies. In twenty twenty three is the year

2922
02:27:27,280 --> 02:27:30,720
Speaker 3: we have the most complete data on. Seven out of

2923
02:27:30,959 --> 02:27:35,800
Speaker 3: the ten top selling comic book authors were Japanese, and

2924
02:27:35,959 --> 02:27:39,279
Speaker 3: this is in the United States. Of the seven hundred

2925
02:27:39,320 --> 02:27:43,000
Speaker 3: and fifty top selling comic books in the US, almost

2926
02:27:43,040 --> 02:27:47,080
Speaker 3: four hundred were manga. Here's a clip of a PBS

2927
02:27:47,120 --> 02:27:49,199
Speaker 3: news piece from twenty twenty four.

2928
02:27:49,760 --> 02:27:53,280
Speaker 4: Over the last few years, Japanese animation and comic books

2929
02:27:53,280 --> 02:27:56,680
Speaker 4: have seen an explosion of popularity in the United States.

2930
02:27:56,800 --> 02:27:58,879
Speaker 11: We couldn't fill the stores fast enough.

2931
02:27:58,920 --> 02:28:01,680
Speaker 17: Barnes and Noble Senior director of Books, Shannondovido.

2932
02:28:02,080 --> 02:28:04,640
Speaker 11: The readers in the space are so voracious. It's a

2933
02:28:04,680 --> 02:28:07,040
Speaker 11: good thing that the series are so long and so

2934
02:28:07,160 --> 02:28:10,840
Speaker 11: beautifully drawn, because not only do they look for ten

2935
02:28:10,879 --> 02:28:12,920
Speaker 11: other series to read once they finish one, they go

2936
02:28:13,000 --> 02:28:13,800
Speaker 11: back and reread.

2937
02:28:14,080 --> 02:28:17,000
Speaker 17: Manga sales in the US quadrupled from twenty nineteen to

2938
02:28:17,000 --> 02:28:19,640
Speaker 17: twenty twenty two, with a peak of twenty eight point

2939
02:28:19,720 --> 02:28:22,840
Speaker 17: four million copies sold. It is now the fourth largest

2940
02:28:22,879 --> 02:28:27,039
Speaker 17: fiction category overall in the United States, behind romance, thrillers,

2941
02:28:27,040 --> 02:28:27,760
Speaker 17: and fantasy.

2942
02:28:28,160 --> 02:28:32,440
Speaker 11: It's one of our top ten subjects any day. During

2943
02:28:32,480 --> 02:28:35,800
Speaker 11: the pandemic, it was in our top five pretty consistently.

2944
02:28:36,400 --> 02:28:40,640
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, shelf space for superhero graphic novels has been reduced

2945
02:28:40,640 --> 02:28:43,640
Speaker 3: at Barnes and Noble the past few years, sometimes to

2946
02:28:43,680 --> 02:28:47,280
Speaker 3: a single shelf, to make way for an expanding collection

2947
02:28:47,520 --> 02:28:51,600
Speaker 3: of manga. Manga sales are also rising in the superhero

2948
02:28:51,600 --> 02:28:56,760
Speaker 3: Holy of Holy's direct market comic bookstores, where manga was

2949
02:28:56,840 --> 02:29:00,800
Speaker 3: up thirty three percent in twenty twenty five. The main

2950
02:29:00,879 --> 02:29:04,440
Speaker 3: driver of sales for US comic publisher Dark Horse Comics

2951
02:29:04,879 --> 02:29:09,640
Speaker 3: is through licensing manga like Berserk. So what might be

2952
02:29:09,720 --> 02:29:12,360
Speaker 3: causing this? As pop culture has become one of the

2953
02:29:12,400 --> 02:29:16,800
Speaker 3: main battlegrounds of the cultural war, maybe anime and manga

2954
02:29:16,879 --> 02:29:20,800
Speaker 3: serve as a safe refuge from the divisive, all consuming

2955
02:29:20,879 --> 02:29:24,240
Speaker 3: politics of the United States. A few months ago, we

2956
02:29:24,320 --> 02:29:28,000
Speaker 3: got behind the scenes news about the end Or Press Tour.

2957
02:29:28,640 --> 02:29:31,920
Speaker 3: Creator Tony Gilroy admitted in an interview with The Hollywood

2958
02:29:31,959 --> 02:29:36,760
Speaker 3: Reporter that Disney requested Gilroy and the cast refrain from

2959
02:29:36,840 --> 02:29:41,120
Speaker 3: using the words fascism and genocide in early promotion of

2960
02:29:41,160 --> 02:29:45,800
Speaker 3: the show to avoid political outrage. When James Gunn described

2961
02:29:45,840 --> 02:29:49,320
Speaker 3: Superman as a quote unquote immigrant, right wing news pundits

2962
02:29:49,360 --> 02:29:53,960
Speaker 3: manufactured a backlash with a Fox News graphic reading super

2963
02:29:54,120 --> 02:29:57,320
Speaker 3: woke and Jesse Waters saying you know what it says

2964
02:29:57,320 --> 02:30:02,600
Speaker 3: on his cape MS thirteen. Former Superman actor Dean Kane

2965
02:30:02,600 --> 02:30:06,400
Speaker 3: also complained about Superman becoming too woke a month before

2966
02:30:06,560 --> 02:30:09,520
Speaker 3: he joined ICE as a part of a publicity stunt.

2967
02:30:10,879 --> 02:30:14,279
Speaker 3: American culture war issues do effect the way our entertainment

2968
02:30:14,360 --> 02:30:18,280
Speaker 3: industry operates, from what projects get greenlit to casting and

2969
02:30:18,400 --> 02:30:23,240
Speaker 3: even corporate mergers. The Trump aligned Ellison family bought Paramount

2970
02:30:23,240 --> 02:30:26,840
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five and now seek to acquire Warner Brothers.

2971
02:30:27,480 --> 02:30:30,560
Speaker 3: All that considered, it would seem that anime and manga

2972
02:30:30,680 --> 02:30:33,360
Speaker 3: may not get nearly as cut up in our American

2973
02:30:33,520 --> 02:30:37,360
Speaker 3: culture war debate and be relatively safe from both woke

2974
02:30:37,560 --> 02:30:42,840
Speaker 3: and anti woke influence. Though this idea demonstrates the limits

2975
02:30:42,879 --> 02:30:47,280
Speaker 3: of woke as an understanding of politics, because, of course,

2976
02:30:47,560 --> 02:30:51,680
Speaker 3: Japanese media is in fact very political. Take Gundam, Godzilla,

2977
02:30:51,720 --> 02:30:54,800
Speaker 3: attack on Titan, films like Love and Pop Jin Rao

2978
02:30:55,120 --> 02:30:59,360
Speaker 3: or Kyoshi Kurosawa's new movie Cloud. A lot of Japanese

2979
02:30:59,400 --> 02:31:03,200
Speaker 3: media russ with their extremely punitive judicial system and the

2980
02:31:03,240 --> 02:31:07,320
Speaker 3: country's relationship with nationalism and the military, not to mention

2981
02:31:07,440 --> 02:31:10,200
Speaker 3: the growing popularity of media that plays with gender and

2982
02:31:10,240 --> 02:31:13,720
Speaker 3: sexuality like Yaowe and Boys Love, or the common presence

2983
02:31:13,800 --> 02:31:17,200
Speaker 3: of gender non conforming characters in works like Jiu Jitsu,

2984
02:31:17,280 --> 02:31:20,400
Speaker 3: Kaizen and chainsaw Man. And yet there aren't as many

2985
02:31:20,640 --> 02:31:24,640
Speaker 3: anger YouTube videos to crying Woke chainsaw Man for having

2986
02:31:24,640 --> 02:31:28,880
Speaker 3: a beautiful, non binary twink. America is just largely insulated

2987
02:31:29,000 --> 02:31:35,000
Speaker 3: from Japanese political issues. Last February, Japan's Conservative Party swept

2988
02:31:35,000 --> 02:31:38,960
Speaker 3: a parliamentary snap election, getting over two thirds control of

2989
02:31:39,000 --> 02:31:42,600
Speaker 3: the lower house, the largest majority since World War Two.

2990
02:31:43,360 --> 02:31:47,000
Speaker 3: But both chuds and woke alike can enjoy anime because

2991
02:31:47,040 --> 02:31:51,440
Speaker 3: it feels outside American politics, and it is true that

2992
02:31:51,560 --> 02:31:56,000
Speaker 3: Japanese creators aren't trying to navigate around a potentially hostile

2993
02:31:56,040 --> 02:31:59,320
Speaker 3: American audience, which means they can do certain things that

2994
02:31:59,400 --> 02:32:04,440
Speaker 3: American com companies might find too risky. The vitriolic reactions

2995
02:32:04,440 --> 02:32:08,320
Speaker 3: to the Last Jedi definitely affected Disney's plans for Star Wars,

2996
02:32:08,760 --> 02:32:14,600
Speaker 3: which soon prioritized the comparatively safe and sanitized Mandalorian TV show,

2997
02:32:15,120 --> 02:32:18,240
Speaker 3: which has a movie version coming out this week. Most

2998
02:32:18,280 --> 02:32:21,760
Speaker 3: of the non and Or Star Wars shows are primarily

2999
02:32:21,800 --> 02:32:25,600
Speaker 3: trying to capitalize on nostalgia, whether for the original trilogy,

3000
02:32:25,720 --> 02:32:28,680
Speaker 3: the prequels, or even the Clone Wars TV show from

3001
02:32:28,760 --> 02:32:32,560
Speaker 3: the two thousands. And Or was championed and protected by

3002
02:32:32,640 --> 02:32:36,600
Speaker 3: Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy, but now she's transitioning out of

3003
02:32:36,600 --> 02:32:40,720
Speaker 3: that role. In an exit interview with Deadline, Kathy Kennedy

3004
02:32:40,720 --> 02:32:45,160
Speaker 3: alluded that going forward, Lucasfilm may not pursue risky projects

3005
02:32:45,200 --> 02:32:48,520
Speaker 3: that break the mold. Quote you have to be bold,

3006
02:32:48,560 --> 02:32:50,440
Speaker 3: and you have to be willing to take risks with

3007
02:32:50,560 --> 02:32:54,520
Speaker 3: people and ideas. Otherwise you are just doing the same thing.

3008
02:32:54,920 --> 02:32:55,320
Speaker 4: Right now.

3009
02:32:55,360 --> 02:32:58,320
Speaker 3: We're in an era where companies are so risk averse,

3010
02:32:58,400 --> 02:33:00,520
Speaker 3: and I get it. I hear all the comfort stations

3011
02:33:00,680 --> 02:33:02,920
Speaker 3: they've got Wall Street to please, and I get it.

3012
02:33:03,120 --> 02:33:08,360
Speaker 3: But I also believe that that's what contributes to things disappearing. Ultimately, quote,

3013
02:33:09,160 --> 02:33:14,080
Speaker 3: this reliance on nostalgia and this extreme risk aversion has

3014
02:33:14,160 --> 02:33:18,400
Speaker 3: landed us in a pop cultural recession, and Japan is

3015
02:33:18,520 --> 02:33:21,600
Speaker 3: ready willing and able to fill the gap. This is

3016
02:33:21,640 --> 02:33:24,800
Speaker 3: not simply a matter of thing Japan, but rather this

3017
02:33:24,840 --> 02:33:28,520
Speaker 3: points to real differences in the production and distribution process.

3018
02:33:29,480 --> 02:33:33,440
Speaker 3: A lot of manga is read in Japan. As popular

3019
02:33:33,480 --> 02:33:36,280
Speaker 3: as it's getting here, we are nowhere close to how

3020
02:33:36,360 --> 02:33:40,200
Speaker 3: much manga is read in Japan. Despite their smaller population,

3021
02:33:41,000 --> 02:33:45,120
Speaker 3: Japan still is the primary producer and consumer of manga,

3022
02:33:45,160 --> 02:33:48,520
Speaker 3: with a market value of almost four point five billion

3023
02:33:48,600 --> 02:33:52,440
Speaker 3: dollars a year. Manga that sells really well often gets

3024
02:33:52,440 --> 02:33:56,039
Speaker 3: adapted into an anime, and when that anime airs in

3025
02:33:56,120 --> 02:34:00,520
Speaker 3: the US, the show then helps drive sale of the

3026
02:34:00,560 --> 02:34:05,160
Speaker 3: original manga. The top selling manga in the US usually

3027
02:34:05,200 --> 02:34:10,199
Speaker 3: follow whatever is the most successful currently airing anime adaptation.

3028
02:34:10,800 --> 02:34:15,240
Speaker 3: In recent years, that's been Chainsaw Man, Spy Family, Demon Slayer, Berserk,

3029
02:34:15,400 --> 02:34:20,000
Speaker 3: and ju Jitsu Kaizen. This model doesn't really exist.

3030
02:34:19,640 --> 02:34:20,280
Speaker 5: In the US.

3031
02:34:20,879 --> 02:34:23,920
Speaker 3: We don't have regularly airing twenty two episode seasons of

3032
02:34:23,959 --> 02:34:26,920
Speaker 3: comic book shows anymore, especially any of that appeal to

3033
02:34:27,040 --> 02:34:30,880
Speaker 3: a wide age range. The closest comparison is what Amazon

3034
02:34:30,959 --> 02:34:34,359
Speaker 3: Prime has done with mini series like The Boys and Invincible.

3035
02:34:35,080 --> 02:34:38,840
Speaker 3: But even the juggernaut that was the MCU did not

3036
02:34:39,120 --> 02:34:44,680
Speaker 3: meaningfully boost sales of the original Marvel comics. It could

3037
02:34:44,720 --> 02:34:52,640
Speaker 3: happen here will return after these messages we now return

3038
02:34:52,720 --> 02:34:59,480
Speaker 3: to it could happen here. In an interview last January, Generally,

3039
02:34:59,720 --> 02:35:03,440
Speaker 3: chief creative officer and president of DC Comics, talked about

3040
02:35:03,520 --> 02:35:08,120
Speaker 3: why manga is beating Western comics. Quote, the stories told

3041
02:35:08,240 --> 02:35:11,840
Speaker 3: in Japanese manga and anime are incredibly powerful. I often

3042
02:35:11,879 --> 02:35:15,320
Speaker 3: find myself wondering what is missing in Western comics and

3043
02:35:15,360 --> 02:35:18,480
Speaker 3: why aren't they able to achieve the same flavor. I

3044
02:35:18,520 --> 02:35:22,080
Speaker 3: think manga has an advantage over American comics, which are

3045
02:35:22,160 --> 02:35:25,720
Speaker 3: mostly about superheroes, and that's where the majority of sales

3046
02:35:25,720 --> 02:35:29,879
Speaker 3: and readers are concentrated. In Japan, it's closer to literature

3047
02:35:30,400 --> 02:35:33,320
Speaker 3: and anyone can read it. And it's not just hero stories.

3048
02:35:33,840 --> 02:35:37,240
Speaker 3: There's a much wider range of genres, like stories about

3049
02:35:37,280 --> 02:35:40,959
Speaker 3: cooking and soccer. You can draw stories from that. So

3050
02:35:41,080 --> 02:35:44,760
Speaker 3: I'm very happy that manga has been so successful because

3051
02:35:44,800 --> 02:35:48,000
Speaker 3: it gives me a goal to aim for. The manga

3052
02:35:48,040 --> 02:35:51,280
Speaker 3: market is bigger than our industry, so the question becomes,

3053
02:35:51,640 --> 02:35:56,200
Speaker 3: what can we learn from this? Jimily is right, but

3054
02:35:56,879 --> 02:35:59,760
Speaker 3: this is only getting at one part of the equation.

3055
02:36:00,520 --> 02:36:03,560
Speaker 3: It's not just that manga has a wide range of genres,

3056
02:36:04,040 --> 02:36:08,680
Speaker 3: but also a constantly growing collection of original characters and

3057
02:36:08,800 --> 02:36:14,160
Speaker 3: new series within familiar genres like Shonan or Boy's action comics.

3058
02:36:14,800 --> 02:36:19,280
Speaker 3: Japan is actually generating new culture, not just recycling the

3059
02:36:19,320 --> 02:36:23,800
Speaker 3: same four ips over and over again. Something like Chainsaw

3060
02:36:23,840 --> 02:36:27,320
Speaker 3: Man has its fair share of Japanese and American inspirations,

3061
02:36:27,760 --> 02:36:30,440
Speaker 3: but importantly, it's not a simple spinoff of one of

3062
02:36:30,480 --> 02:36:35,520
Speaker 3: those franchises, but an evolution of the genre. Most manga

3063
02:36:35,560 --> 02:36:39,000
Speaker 3: series have a defined beginning and end, usually written by

3064
02:36:39,040 --> 02:36:43,120
Speaker 3: a single author, as opposed to the perpetual continuity of

3065
02:36:43,200 --> 02:36:46,080
Speaker 3: most Western comics, where opening up an issue feels like

3066
02:36:46,160 --> 02:36:48,080
Speaker 3: jumping into the middle of a story that's been going

3067
02:36:48,120 --> 02:36:51,200
Speaker 3: on for years, passed on from one author to another.

3068
02:36:51,760 --> 02:36:54,640
Speaker 3: This certainly has its own appeal, but it can be

3069
02:36:54,760 --> 02:36:58,520
Speaker 3: challenging for new readers. When people first get into manga

3070
02:36:58,640 --> 02:37:02,119
Speaker 3: or anime and finish a serieses, there's then this massive

3071
02:37:02,160 --> 02:37:07,480
Speaker 3: backlog of different series, all with unique characters. A collected

3072
02:37:07,600 --> 02:37:10,720
Speaker 3: manga volume is also much cheaper than a DC or

3073
02:37:11,080 --> 02:37:15,320
Speaker 3: Marvel trade paperback, about ten dollars compared to twenty dollars

3074
02:37:16,080 --> 02:37:18,720
Speaker 3: part of DC comics strategy of trying to learn from

3075
02:37:18,760 --> 02:37:21,840
Speaker 3: manga has included the creation of a new line of

3076
02:37:21,879 --> 02:37:27,120
Speaker 3: paperbacks called DC Compact Comics. Regular Western comics are significantly

3077
02:37:27,160 --> 02:37:30,480
Speaker 3: taller and wider than manga, printed on glossy full color

3078
02:37:30,560 --> 02:37:34,920
Speaker 3: paper about seven by eleven inches, whereas manga has cheaper paper,

3079
02:37:35,120 --> 02:37:38,199
Speaker 3: usually in black and white, in a more compact package,

3080
02:37:38,280 --> 02:37:42,480
Speaker 3: usually five by seven and a half inches. DC Compact

3081
02:37:42,520 --> 02:37:46,720
Speaker 3: Comics offers quote unquote, new reader friendly stories in a

3082
02:37:46,800 --> 02:37:50,840
Speaker 3: manga sized package at a cheaper price point, but this

3083
02:37:50,959 --> 02:37:54,800
Speaker 3: is only copying the form factor of manga. In twenty

3084
02:37:54,840 --> 02:37:58,520
Speaker 3: twenty three, three of the top five selling DC Comics

3085
02:37:58,600 --> 02:38:03,680
Speaker 3: titles were old classics from the late eighties, Watchman, Sandman,

3086
02:38:03,800 --> 02:38:07,040
Speaker 3: and Batman Year One. These are the type of comics

3087
02:38:07,080 --> 02:38:11,240
Speaker 3: that DC combackt Comics is reprinting. It's all of these

3088
02:38:11,360 --> 02:38:16,000
Speaker 3: old comics retrofitted into manga size for ten bucks, and

3089
02:38:16,120 --> 02:38:19,279
Speaker 3: this is helping DC with sales, but it's still a

3090
02:38:19,320 --> 02:38:23,600
Speaker 3: self cannibalizing process. These things can't run forever on a

3091
02:38:23,680 --> 02:38:27,280
Speaker 3: nostalgia alone, and if they keep trying to, they're going

3092
02:38:27,360 --> 02:38:30,160
Speaker 3: to lose to whoever can make new stuff on mass

3093
02:38:30,280 --> 02:38:34,200
Speaker 3: which right now is Japan and South Korea, with China

3094
02:38:34,320 --> 02:38:37,879
Speaker 3: ride around the corner. Even when DC is promoting new stories,

3095
02:38:38,200 --> 02:38:41,760
Speaker 3: they're still relying on the same handful of characters, and

3096
02:38:41,800 --> 02:38:44,439
Speaker 3: this has forced them to do a series of confusing

3097
02:38:44,720 --> 02:38:48,760
Speaker 3: continuity resets to attract new readers, though this often has

3098
02:38:48,800 --> 02:38:52,440
Speaker 3: the backfire effect of alienating existing readers and making the

3099
02:38:52,480 --> 02:38:56,760
Speaker 3: whole ordeal seem too complicated to bother investing time and

3100
02:38:56,800 --> 02:39:01,519
Speaker 3: money into. Japan does have their own version of IP recycling,

3101
02:39:01,720 --> 02:39:04,760
Speaker 3: like Pokemon, Dragon Ball, and Gundam, but in a long

3102
02:39:04,840 --> 02:39:09,600
Speaker 3: running series like Gundam, new installments are often completely separate

3103
02:39:09,640 --> 02:39:13,640
Speaker 3: from one another, remixing key concepts in a new canon

3104
02:39:13,800 --> 02:39:17,879
Speaker 3: or premis Gundam. Wing introduced Gundam to most Americans when

3105
02:39:17,920 --> 02:39:20,840
Speaker 3: it aired on Tunami, and that show is entirely distinct

3106
02:39:20,920 --> 02:39:24,280
Speaker 3: from the original Gundam series from nineteen seventy nine. This

3107
02:39:24,400 --> 02:39:28,360
Speaker 3: continuity separation is continued with new installments like Iron Blooded

3108
02:39:28,440 --> 02:39:32,440
Speaker 3: Orphans and Witch from Mercury. Something similar is attempted in

3109
02:39:32,520 --> 02:39:37,359
Speaker 3: the Marvel Ultimate Universe or DC's Else Worlds, or more comparably,

3110
02:39:37,440 --> 02:39:41,520
Speaker 3: in something like the critically acclaimed Absolute Batman or Absolute

3111
02:39:41,520 --> 02:39:46,600
Speaker 3: Martian Manhunter series, but historically these concepts get roped into

3112
02:39:47,040 --> 02:39:50,959
Speaker 3: multi verse slop and crossover events that feed into the

3113
02:39:51,000 --> 02:39:55,480
Speaker 3: same nostalgia loops and franchise self cannibalization. The risk of

3114
02:39:55,560 --> 02:40:00,000
Speaker 3: version among US media companies not only restricts what type

3115
02:40:00,280 --> 02:40:04,560
Speaker 3: of stories can be told, but also who is telling them.

3116
02:40:04,879 --> 02:40:08,160
Speaker 3: Even the new darling of DC Comics Absolute Batman, the

3117
02:40:08,200 --> 02:40:12,120
Speaker 3: groundbreaking series that's redefining the character, is written by a

3118
02:40:12,160 --> 02:40:16,280
Speaker 3: guy who has been writing Batman since Obama's first term.

3119
02:40:16,680 --> 02:40:19,879
Speaker 3: At the New York Comic Con Batman Animation panel, I

3120
02:40:19,920 --> 02:40:23,840
Speaker 3: recognized animators and directors that I've known of since I

3121
02:40:24,000 --> 02:40:27,000
Speaker 3: was a little kid, because I watched the bonus features

3122
02:40:27,040 --> 02:40:30,560
Speaker 3: on all of my Batman DVDs. The big announcement at

3123
02:40:30,600 --> 02:40:34,520
Speaker 3: that panel was that they were adapting Batman Nightfall, a

3124
02:40:34,600 --> 02:40:38,240
Speaker 3: comic book run from the nineties, into a multi part

3125
02:40:38,320 --> 02:40:42,560
Speaker 3: animated film series. I also attended panels for Gundam and

3126
02:40:42,640 --> 02:40:46,320
Speaker 3: The Chainsaw Man Movie, and the Japanese directors on the

3127
02:40:46,360 --> 02:40:50,800
Speaker 3: panels were considerably younger. The Chainsawman Movie director is in

3128
02:40:50,840 --> 02:40:55,240
Speaker 3: his thirties. Likewise, Gundam, Iron Blooded Orphan was written and

3129
02:40:55,320 --> 02:40:58,440
Speaker 3: directed by people in their thirties, and we used to

3130
02:40:58,520 --> 02:41:02,680
Speaker 3: let young people make cool superhero stuff. Batman, the animated

3131
02:41:02,680 --> 02:41:05,920
Speaker 3: series was made by kids in the nineties. The problem

3132
02:41:06,040 --> 02:41:09,920
Speaker 3: is those kids now in their mid sixties are still

3133
02:41:09,959 --> 02:41:13,680
Speaker 3: the only people allowed to make Batman stuff. The manga

3134
02:41:13,720 --> 02:41:17,440
Speaker 3: industry has pipelines for young writers and artists to submit

3135
02:41:17,520 --> 02:41:21,520
Speaker 3: their work and get published because publishers are always looking

3136
02:41:21,560 --> 02:41:25,359
Speaker 3: for new stories, and the huge popularity of digital comics

3137
02:41:25,360 --> 02:41:29,280
Speaker 3: in Japan and South Korea also provides easier opportunities for

3138
02:41:29,320 --> 02:41:31,560
Speaker 3: young creators to get their comics in front of a

3139
02:41:31,560 --> 02:41:35,640
Speaker 3: lot of eyes. Keeping this balance of new stories and

3140
02:41:35,840 --> 02:41:40,120
Speaker 3: old ip is working out pretty well for Japanese capital

3141
02:41:40,720 --> 02:41:43,879
Speaker 3: on a global scale. They are much better at producing cheap,

3142
02:41:44,040 --> 02:41:47,840
Speaker 3: widely available branded merchandise. Pokemon and Hello Kitty are the

3143
02:41:47,920 --> 02:41:52,400
Speaker 3: top two highest grossing media franchises in the entire world.

3144
02:41:53,080 --> 02:41:56,560
Speaker 3: Most of that is merchandising revenue. Out of the top

3145
02:41:56,640 --> 02:42:01,039
Speaker 3: ten highest grossing media franchises, five are j Japanese. The

3146
02:42:01,120 --> 02:42:05,039
Speaker 3: others are Winnie the Pooh, Mickey Mouse, Star Wars, Disney Princesses,

3147
02:42:05,160 --> 02:42:10,600
Speaker 3: and the MCU. American audiences suddenly deciding that Goku rules

3148
02:42:10,600 --> 02:42:15,280
Speaker 3: and Batman drools doesn't cause this state of affairs. Rather,

3149
02:42:15,320 --> 02:42:20,520
Speaker 3: the opposite production and economic conditions determine which characters or

3150
02:42:20,600 --> 02:42:25,720
Speaker 3: franchises are seen as cool and culturally relevant. As the

3151
02:42:25,720 --> 02:42:27,960
Speaker 3: anime and manga industry has seen rapid growth the past

3152
02:42:28,000 --> 02:42:32,240
Speaker 3: few years, there's been discussions within the industry about whether

3153
02:42:32,320 --> 02:42:36,200
Speaker 3: anime should continue to cater to a Japanese audience or

3154
02:42:36,480 --> 02:42:40,279
Speaker 3: try to appeal to the growing international market. In December,

3155
02:42:40,320 --> 02:42:43,400
Speaker 3: the Japanese Prime Minister met with entertainment industry figures to

3156
02:42:43,400 --> 02:42:47,400
Speaker 3: discuss how Japan's media market could expand overseas to enhance

3157
02:42:47,440 --> 02:42:52,680
Speaker 3: their diplomatic power. Neon Genesis Evangelian creator Hideyakiano has argued

3158
02:42:52,720 --> 02:42:56,240
Speaker 3: that anime should not adapt to a growing overseas audience,

3159
02:42:56,640 --> 02:43:00,560
Speaker 3: but that the audience should adapt to uniquely Japanese aspects

3160
02:43:00,600 --> 02:43:04,160
Speaker 3: of anime. The government of Japan has recently announced that

3161
02:43:04,160 --> 02:43:07,800
Speaker 3: they are boosting state investment in the creation of Japanese

3162
02:43:07,879 --> 02:43:11,760
Speaker 3: media like manga, anime, and music, and strengthening its global

3163
02:43:11,800 --> 02:43:15,960
Speaker 3: distribution networks. While speaking on a government panel of experts,

3164
02:43:16,160 --> 02:43:21,520
Speaker 3: Hideakiano pointed to labor shortages negatively affecting production studios, but

3165
02:43:21,680 --> 02:43:24,600
Speaker 3: some of the new government efforts may actually do more

3166
02:43:24,640 --> 02:43:28,120
Speaker 3: harm than good for the international market, like AI driven

3167
02:43:28,200 --> 02:43:33,840
Speaker 3: translation tools and assistance in combating online manga piracy. Capital

3168
02:43:33,920 --> 02:43:38,040
Speaker 3: goes through periods of growth and recession, while retracting capital

3169
02:43:38,080 --> 02:43:41,560
Speaker 3: pushes living labor out and increasingly relies on dead labor,

3170
02:43:42,400 --> 02:43:47,000
Speaker 3: like DC compact comics, reprinting the past over and over again.

3171
02:43:47,520 --> 02:43:49,760
Speaker 3: This is the part of the cycle that Western companies

3172
02:43:49,840 --> 02:43:52,600
Speaker 3: have been stuck in the past few years. But the

3173
02:43:52,680 --> 02:43:55,800
Speaker 3: rise of anime itself grew out of the Great Recession.

3174
02:43:56,280 --> 02:43:58,600
Speaker 3: It was the collapse of the DVD market and the

3175
02:43:58,720 --> 02:44:02,080
Speaker 3: rise of internet piracy that laid the groundwork for early

3176
02:44:02,160 --> 02:44:05,600
Speaker 3: streaming platforms like Crunchy Role, which would play a significant

3177
02:44:05,640 --> 02:44:08,880
Speaker 3: part in pushing anime and manga into the mainstream come

3178
02:44:09,000 --> 02:44:13,280
Speaker 3: the twenty twenties. According to the Japan Times, overseas sales

3179
02:44:13,320 --> 02:44:17,720
Speaker 3: of Japanese content reached thirty seven point six billion dollars

3180
02:44:17,800 --> 02:44:23,720
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three, surpassing Japan's semiconductor exports. And if

3181
02:44:23,760 --> 02:44:26,760
Speaker 3: you look at the revenue for Pokemon and Hello Kitty

3182
02:44:27,120 --> 02:44:31,000
Speaker 3: compared to Star Wars, The MCU and Batman, it makes

3183
02:44:31,000 --> 02:44:33,879
Speaker 3: sense that Japan wants to keep growing their international market.

3184
02:44:34,720 --> 02:44:39,040
Speaker 3: But this commodity warfare is not a matter of East

3185
02:44:39,160 --> 02:44:43,520
Speaker 3: versus West, but a battle between old and new capital.

3186
02:44:44,360 --> 02:44:48,200
Speaker 3: Old capital in Europe and America had early global dominance.

3187
02:44:48,560 --> 02:44:52,280
Speaker 3: Europe fell off, but then came Japan, and now South

3188
02:44:52,400 --> 02:44:55,440
Speaker 3: Korea is growing and is gearing up to steal Japan's

3189
02:44:55,480 --> 02:44:59,200
Speaker 3: lunch money. Last September, Disney announced a new partnership with

3190
02:44:59,240 --> 02:45:02,320
Speaker 3: the South Korean com company Webtune to create a new

3191
02:45:02,360 --> 02:45:06,400
Speaker 3: digital comic platform using the Marvel and Star Wars catalog.

3192
02:45:07,040 --> 02:45:10,560
Speaker 3: But Marvel and DC aren't gonna overcome the dominance of

3193
02:45:10,640 --> 02:45:15,160
Speaker 3: Japanese media by just reprinting old comics as web tunes

3194
02:45:15,280 --> 02:45:19,080
Speaker 3: or manga sized packages. That doesn't fix the core issue,

3195
02:45:19,080 --> 02:45:23,160
Speaker 3: which is caused by Western companies not investing in new labor.

3196
02:45:23,400 --> 02:45:26,240
Speaker 3: They are increasingly relying on the dead labor of their

3197
02:45:26,560 --> 02:45:31,240
Speaker 3: ubiquitous iconography. Even my beloved Lego Batman is an instance

3198
02:45:31,280 --> 02:45:34,879
Speaker 3: of this. The game is primarily pulling from plots of

3199
02:45:35,040 --> 02:45:39,240
Speaker 3: old Batman movies, with combat ripped from the Arkham games.

3200
02:45:39,240 --> 02:45:42,320
Speaker 3: In the marketing for the game, the different Batman skins

3201
02:45:42,640 --> 02:45:47,840
Speaker 3: literally have a nostalgia meter moves like DC Compact Comics

3202
02:45:47,879 --> 02:45:51,240
Speaker 3: is an attempt to manage the crisis while still not

3203
02:45:51,320 --> 02:45:54,760
Speaker 3: taking risks and investing in living labor. They don't want

3204
02:45:54,760 --> 02:45:59,280
Speaker 3: to invest because superhero comics aren't growing, which just further

3205
02:45:59,360 --> 02:46:03,440
Speaker 3: compounds the problem. Meanwhile, anime and manga are rapidly growing

3206
02:46:03,440 --> 02:46:06,560
Speaker 3: in the United States, which is why Japanese companies are

3207
02:46:06,560 --> 02:46:09,200
Speaker 3: buying almost half the show floor at New York Comic Con,

3208
02:46:09,680 --> 02:46:12,520
Speaker 3: whereas ten years ago they were in a tiny corner

3209
02:46:12,600 --> 02:46:13,320
Speaker 3: of the basement.

3210
02:46:21,959 --> 02:46:24,520
Speaker 4: I am wearing my women want Me, Fish Fear Me hat.

3211
02:46:26,800 --> 02:46:30,240
Speaker 3: This is it could happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly

3212
02:46:30,320 --> 02:46:32,840
Speaker 3: years cast covering what's happening in the White House, the

3213
02:46:32,840 --> 02:46:36,120
Speaker 3: crumbling world, and what it means for you. I'm name

3214
02:46:36,200 --> 02:46:43,000
Speaker 3: joined by Proper Devans, Mi Hawong, James Stout and James's hat.

3215
02:46:43,520 --> 02:46:44,480
Speaker 2: And James's hat.

3216
02:46:44,680 --> 02:46:45,720
Speaker 4: What do they say, Garrison?

3217
02:46:46,640 --> 02:46:47,600
Speaker 2: Oh they hurt?

3218
02:46:47,800 --> 02:46:49,200
Speaker 5: I think I think the audience heard.

3219
02:46:49,320 --> 02:46:50,040
Speaker 4: Gotta leave that one in.

3220
02:46:50,760 --> 02:46:53,640
Speaker 2: Women fear him, Fish want him, something along those lines.

3221
02:46:53,720 --> 02:46:56,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, fish want me. It's a whole thing with fish.

3222
02:46:56,520 --> 02:46:59,480
Speaker 2: Fish fear women, women want fish, something like that. I

3223
02:46:59,480 --> 02:47:01,880
Speaker 2: don't know. Del Toro made a movie about this, Yes

3224
02:47:01,879 --> 02:47:04,320
Speaker 2: he did, Yes he did, Garrison, what happened did nothing

3225
02:47:04,320 --> 02:47:06,120
Speaker 2: happen this week. I guess we can all go home.

3226
02:47:06,200 --> 02:47:09,879
Speaker 2: It seems like a like like an uneventful news week, right, Yeah,

3227
02:47:10,080 --> 02:47:14,800
Speaker 2: nothing happened with the I R S or anything. Shootings overseas?

3228
02:47:14,840 --> 02:47:19,600
Speaker 2: All good, Cuba fine, nothing happening in Bolivia, nothing happening

3229
02:47:19,600 --> 02:47:21,800
Speaker 2: with Roe Castro.

3230
02:47:22,320 --> 02:47:24,560
Speaker 5: Well that doesn't for it's not happening here.

3231
02:47:25,000 --> 02:47:25,320
Speaker 4: Thank you.

3232
02:47:26,240 --> 02:47:28,080
Speaker 5: We'll see you next week.

3233
02:47:28,400 --> 02:47:31,400
Speaker 2: Yes, it's not happening here. A podcast brought to you

3234
02:47:31,440 --> 02:47:33,080
Speaker 2: by Marijuana.

3235
02:47:35,000 --> 02:47:40,160
Speaker 4: And Sleeping Pills. Should we start with some little things

3236
02:47:40,200 --> 02:47:41,920
Speaker 4: and then move on to some big things. Not that

3237
02:47:41,920 --> 02:47:44,800
Speaker 4: that little things are unimportant, but we're covering them in

3238
02:47:44,959 --> 02:47:48,280
Speaker 4: less detail now and maybe more detail later. Yeah. Former

3239
02:47:48,400 --> 02:47:51,920
Speaker 4: Interior Secretary now Representative Ran zin Key is once again

3240
02:47:51,959 --> 02:47:55,600
Speaker 4: attempting to delist brown bears from the David Species Act.

3241
02:47:55,840 --> 02:48:01,040
Speaker 2: He hates those brown he fucking hat. They're trying to

3242
02:48:01,040 --> 02:48:03,240
Speaker 2: do the same thing with grizzlies too. They're a little

3243
02:48:03,280 --> 02:48:05,800
Speaker 2: further behind, but there's a push going right now. Like

3244
02:48:05,800 --> 02:48:08,400
Speaker 2: grizzly numbers have recovered a lot. They're starting to do

3245
02:48:08,560 --> 02:48:10,520
Speaker 2: bad stuff. We gotta start outing them.

3246
02:48:10,720 --> 02:48:13,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, if the grownd bears and britty bears are the same, species.

3247
02:48:13,080 --> 02:48:15,720
Speaker 4: They're just brown bears would be the term I would

3248
02:48:15,800 --> 02:48:18,720
Speaker 4: use to describe all of the Usus horribilis, I guess

3249
02:48:18,720 --> 02:48:21,720
Speaker 4: in North America. Yeah, like Kodiak brown bear and grizly bear.

3250
02:48:21,959 --> 02:48:25,920
Speaker 4: But yes, you're right. The justification that Zinki has given

3251
02:48:25,959 --> 02:48:28,920
Speaker 4: is that populations are getting higher, and he specifically cited

3252
02:48:29,240 --> 02:48:31,360
Speaker 4: a tragedy in which I hiker lost their life in

3253
02:48:31,560 --> 02:48:36,279
Speaker 4: Glacier National Park and another attack on two tourists in Yellowstone. Yeah,

3254
02:48:36,360 --> 02:48:38,520
Speaker 4: the Endangered Species Act has nothing to do with how

3255
02:48:38,600 --> 02:48:42,240
Speaker 4: dangerous an animal is, not as population size really play

3256
02:48:42,240 --> 02:48:43,879
Speaker 4: a role in these It's not that these bears attack

3257
02:48:43,959 --> 02:48:45,959
Speaker 4: these people because they were hungry, because the other bears

3258
02:48:45,959 --> 02:48:49,160
Speaker 4: that outcompeted them for food. Now, one person walked up

3259
02:48:49,160 --> 02:48:51,800
Speaker 4: on a sow with cubs, so that group yep, came

3260
02:48:51,800 --> 02:48:53,720
Speaker 4: across the sourer's cub and the other one. I think

3261
02:48:53,720 --> 02:48:55,920
Speaker 4: the bear was probably foraging for berries and a person

3262
02:48:56,040 --> 02:48:58,960
Speaker 4: surprised it in some thick timber. A lot of people

3263
02:48:58,959 --> 02:49:01,600
Speaker 4: thought that they would dealist grizzlies, but they didn't straight

3264
02:49:01,600 --> 02:49:03,880
Speaker 4: away in January and they so if I haven't, I'd

3265
02:49:03,879 --> 02:49:05,960
Speaker 4: write a whole two thousand words of this. When he's left.

3266
02:49:06,000 --> 02:49:07,320
Speaker 4: If you want to learn more about bears, a lot

3267
02:49:07,320 --> 02:49:09,000
Speaker 4: of a lot of bear content. We will also bring

3268
02:49:09,040 --> 02:49:11,360
Speaker 4: you a bear episode in the coming weeks in which

3269
02:49:11,360 --> 02:49:13,879
Speaker 4: I talked to Molly about bears, because it seems like

3270
02:49:13,920 --> 02:49:17,720
Speaker 4: you like me talking to Molly about animals. Talking of animals.

3271
02:49:18,000 --> 02:49:22,160
Speaker 4: Trump administration has reapproved an exciting way to kill them,

3272
02:49:22,640 --> 02:49:26,920
Speaker 4: the M four cyanide trap. It's been reapproved.

3273
02:49:27,520 --> 02:49:31,600
Speaker 2: Thank god, single issue syanide vote. That's been my one

3274
02:49:31,600 --> 02:49:34,800
Speaker 2: issue for your gearson. You know this I'm all about,

3275
02:49:34,879 --> 02:49:37,000
Speaker 2: And it's not just this. I'm just in general support

3276
02:49:37,000 --> 02:49:41,240
Speaker 2: of them. Anything that increases regular Americans daily access to cyanide.

3277
02:49:41,400 --> 02:49:44,880
Speaker 2: You know That's why I'm also against clean air regulations continue.

3278
02:49:45,040 --> 02:49:48,039
Speaker 4: James, I will. I've bumped into a few of these,

3279
02:49:48,080 --> 02:49:50,400
Speaker 4: like maybe you have two. It's not a code to

3280
02:49:50,440 --> 02:49:51,920
Speaker 4: get a coat, to get it's a different thing. But

3281
02:49:52,400 --> 02:49:55,600
Speaker 4: what this is is it's like a spring loaded, trapped

3282
02:49:55,600 --> 02:49:57,760
Speaker 4: a little thing poking out the ground, normally covering cloth

3283
02:49:57,800 --> 02:50:00,680
Speaker 4: and baited. It's triggered when some I think, bites and

3284
02:50:00,720 --> 02:50:03,959
Speaker 4: pulls it. So it's designed to then squirt the cyanide

3285
02:50:04,040 --> 02:50:06,600
Speaker 4: up into the mouth of It's normally canines, right, it's

3286
02:50:06,600 --> 02:50:09,720
Speaker 4: not much else. Yeah, bites and pulls them. These things

3287
02:50:09,760 --> 02:50:12,000
Speaker 4: have killed dozens of pets and livestock.

3288
02:50:12,080 --> 02:50:15,400
Speaker 2: It's a pretty fucked up kind of trap. Like it's

3289
02:50:15,440 --> 02:50:15,920
Speaker 2: really bad.

3290
02:50:16,720 --> 02:50:18,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty bad. The old ones that used to

3291
02:50:18,879 --> 02:50:21,160
Speaker 4: use like a thirty eight special blank that would really

3292
02:50:21,200 --> 02:50:27,640
Speaker 4: fire the cyanide up. That was a massive fucking issue. Yeah,

3293
02:50:27,680 --> 02:50:29,520
Speaker 4: that was a coyote geta see.

3294
02:50:29,600 --> 02:50:31,760
Speaker 2: I just want to put those in my normal thirty

3295
02:50:31,800 --> 02:50:36,720
Speaker 2: eight and just concealed carrious cyanide. Everyone dies, get really close,

3296
02:50:36,800 --> 02:50:40,960
Speaker 2: get really close. They attack you from like upwind, you know,

3297
02:50:41,080 --> 02:50:43,720
Speaker 2: and then then it's just you. Yeah, once you open

3298
02:50:43,760 --> 02:50:45,520
Speaker 2: your mouth and get really close to me, you know.

3299
02:50:45,840 --> 02:50:46,080
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3300
02:50:47,320 --> 02:50:49,720
Speaker 4: I guess like people will maybe be familiar with these

3301
02:50:49,760 --> 02:50:53,600
Speaker 4: from an incident where the fourteen year old boy was

3302
02:50:53,640 --> 02:50:56,640
Speaker 4: injured and his dog was killed. This was back in

3303
02:50:56,680 --> 02:50:59,720
Speaker 4: the twenty teens. In that case, M forty four was

3304
02:50:59,760 --> 02:51:02,520
Speaker 4: not on the family's property, but it was less than

3305
02:51:02,520 --> 02:51:05,760
Speaker 4: one hundred yards from their house. Wow. And they've discontinued

3306
02:51:05,840 --> 02:51:08,680
Speaker 4: using them in Idaho after that. But the BLM as

3307
02:51:08,720 --> 02:51:11,480
Speaker 4: a whole discontinued their use only in like late twenty three,

3308
02:51:11,520 --> 02:51:15,879
Speaker 4: early twenty four. Trump administration hates every living creature, so

3309
02:51:16,560 --> 02:51:19,520
Speaker 4: it's not really surprising that these are back. Obviously, the

3310
02:51:19,720 --> 02:51:22,879
Speaker 4: issue here is livestock, right, Like they're protecting livestock yep

3311
02:51:23,280 --> 02:51:26,080
Speaker 4: from Canid's. Yeah, there are better ways of doing that.

3312
02:51:26,360 --> 02:51:28,520
Speaker 4: We shouldn't be fucking putting cyanide in a public lands.

3313
02:51:28,520 --> 02:51:31,120
Speaker 4: It's not It's sorry, this one gets me kind of annoyed.

3314
02:51:31,280 --> 02:51:35,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, just the general belief that anything that might interfere

3315
02:51:35,720 --> 02:51:41,160
Speaker 2: with a livestock animal justifies, Like widespread genocide of crucial

3316
02:51:41,200 --> 02:51:46,000
Speaker 2: species is really bad. Yeah, and also dominant in a

3317
02:51:46,040 --> 02:51:47,240
Speaker 2: lot of the American West.

3318
02:51:47,520 --> 02:51:50,160
Speaker 4: Yes, and like cooties are some of the smartest creatures

3319
02:51:50,200 --> 02:51:53,359
Speaker 4: we have, right, They've resisted all attempts to control their population.

3320
02:51:54,280 --> 02:51:56,800
Speaker 4: They continue to thrive. Believe in all fifty states, I

3321
02:51:56,800 --> 02:51:59,280
Speaker 4: think there are maybe not forty nine. I don't think

3322
02:51:59,320 --> 02:52:02,400
Speaker 4: there are any in Hawaii, but yeah, incredible animals. Coke to

3323
02:52:02,480 --> 02:52:05,600
Speaker 4: America by Dan Flores's a good book about them. In

3324
02:52:05,640 --> 02:52:09,320
Speaker 4: the Channel Islands Channel Lines National Park, a fire has

3325
02:52:09,400 --> 02:52:13,760
Speaker 4: already hit over fourteen thousand acres. It is on Santa Rita.

3326
02:52:14,240 --> 02:52:17,240
Speaker 4: It's threatening a grove of very rare tory pines. Tory Pines.

3327
02:52:17,280 --> 02:52:19,879
Speaker 4: Really we have some here in San Diego and some

3328
02:52:20,000 --> 02:52:24,080
Speaker 4: up there. The initial reporting suggested that the mariner himself

3329
02:52:24,120 --> 02:52:27,160
Speaker 4: had fired distress flares and those flares had ignited the fire.

3330
02:52:27,480 --> 02:52:30,080
Speaker 4: What the coast guard is now saying is he was

3331
02:52:30,120 --> 02:52:32,720
Speaker 4: on like a fifty two foot boat by himself. Boat

3332
02:52:32,760 --> 02:52:35,840
Speaker 4: people mad about me saying boat not whatever, and no,

3333
02:52:36,080 --> 02:52:38,240
Speaker 4: I don't care. The boat had run aground and it

3334
02:52:38,320 --> 02:52:40,960
Speaker 4: was rocking, and I'm guessing that rocking either short in

3335
02:52:41,040 --> 02:52:44,760
Speaker 4: something or cut of fuel line that caused a vessel

3336
02:52:44,800 --> 02:52:49,720
Speaker 4: itself to ignite, and then the vessel igniting caused fire

3337
02:52:49,840 --> 02:52:54,680
Speaker 4: on the island, and he then fired flares standing within

3338
02:52:54,760 --> 02:52:57,600
Speaker 4: a previously burned area, so the fire had burned pasted in.

3339
02:52:57,760 --> 02:53:02,040
Speaker 4: He fired flares. Quite why he wasn't able to signal

3340
02:53:02,080 --> 02:53:04,320
Speaker 4: with his radio or if he was able to signal

3341
02:53:04,360 --> 02:53:07,400
Speaker 4: with his radio and then the radio got burned or

3342
02:53:07,440 --> 02:53:11,520
Speaker 4: other means of communication right like a personal locator beacon EPERB.

3343
02:53:11,720 --> 02:53:14,200
Speaker 4: I don't know. All I know is what's been reported

3344
02:53:14,200 --> 02:53:16,640
Speaker 4: so far, but noneless. This is really tragic for one

3345
02:53:16,680 --> 02:53:20,320
Speaker 4: of the very few areas in California which has been

3346
02:53:20,920 --> 02:53:26,200
Speaker 4: less ravaged by capital. Move along to Immigration. I have

3347
02:53:26,240 --> 02:53:31,440
Speaker 4: seen evidence that USCIS income is plummeting, and this is

3348
02:53:31,480 --> 02:53:34,119
Speaker 4: because they're processing fewer applications right then, they're moving much

3349
02:53:34,160 --> 02:53:37,600
Speaker 4: much much more slowly with actually processing the applications to

3350
02:53:37,600 --> 02:53:40,520
Speaker 4: give people the right to have visas or to permanent

3351
02:53:40,560 --> 02:53:45,360
Speaker 4: residency cismship. The agency is normally funded by fees, and

3352
02:53:45,440 --> 02:53:48,880
Speaker 4: it seems that it will soon not be funded by

3353
02:53:48,920 --> 02:53:52,039
Speaker 4: fees anymore. So despite all these DOGE cuts and efficiency cuts,

3354
02:53:52,720 --> 02:53:56,160
Speaker 4: the agency is going to end up costing taxpayers more money,

3355
02:53:56,480 --> 02:54:00,320
Speaker 4: which is great. Today, United States marines boarded the motor

3356
02:54:00,360 --> 02:54:04,240
Speaker 4: tanker Celestial, which they quote suspected was on route for

3357
02:54:04,360 --> 02:54:08,840
Speaker 4: Iran flights from Uganda. The Democratic Republic of Congo and

3358
02:54:08,920 --> 02:54:12,480
Speaker 4: South Sudan are facing new arrival restrictions due to the

3359
02:54:12,480 --> 02:54:16,080
Speaker 4: outbreak of a BOLO in the region. With USAID funding slash,

3360
02:54:16,120 --> 02:54:17,960
Speaker 4: like the US would have normally led a response to

3361
02:54:18,040 --> 02:54:21,080
Speaker 4: something like this or at least helped fund it now won't.

3362
02:54:21,720 --> 02:54:23,760
Speaker 4: This means that the outbreak will be bigger and more

3363
02:54:23,800 --> 02:54:27,119
Speaker 4: people die. Scott Persent has said that the United States

3364
02:54:27,120 --> 02:54:30,320
Speaker 4: will temporarily allow quote the most vulnerable nations to access

3365
02:54:30,360 --> 02:54:37,560
Speaker 4: Russian oil selectively and temporarily lifting sanctions. Also, Ukraine has

3366
02:54:37,640 --> 02:54:41,240
Speaker 4: begun using unguided rockets on first person view drones, and

3367
02:54:41,320 --> 02:54:45,480
Speaker 4: this is a pretty serious development for remote control warfare.

3368
02:54:45,720 --> 02:54:48,080
Speaker 4: They're using them to suppress Russian air events, but they

3369
02:54:48,120 --> 02:54:51,160
Speaker 4: released videos of that for the first time this week. Finally,

3370
02:54:51,160 --> 02:54:53,480
Speaker 4: for me, it appears at a large batch of new

3371
02:54:53,720 --> 02:54:57,800
Speaker 4: immigration judges will be starting work immigrant judges. It's worth

3372
02:54:57,800 --> 02:54:59,840
Speaker 4: noting I'm not judges in the sense that we understand

3373
02:54:59,840 --> 02:55:02,280
Speaker 4: the for other judges in the legal system. They're more

3374
02:55:02,320 --> 02:55:07,680
Speaker 4: like bureaucrats like Robert. Yes, Robert's more real of a judge.

3375
02:55:08,200 --> 02:55:11,000
Speaker 4: That's certainly not reverend judges. Their ranks have been purged

3376
02:55:11,040 --> 02:55:14,440
Speaker 4: by the Trump administration rate since thirty, twenty twenty five.

3377
02:55:14,520 --> 02:55:16,879
Speaker 4: I know lots of them have retired, or quit or

3378
02:55:16,920 --> 02:55:20,800
Speaker 4: been fired. I can imagine that this new cohort might

3379
02:55:20,840 --> 02:55:24,039
Speaker 4: be more favorable to the Trump administration's immigration goals.

3380
02:55:24,640 --> 02:55:27,520
Speaker 7: So there's been in the past few days in massive

3381
02:55:28,080 --> 02:55:32,920
Speaker 7: intensification of month long protests in Bolivia that has escalated

3382
02:55:32,959 --> 02:55:35,240
Speaker 7: into a general strike. It's also turned into one of

3383
02:55:35,280 --> 02:55:39,840
Speaker 7: the traditional Bolivian protest tactics, which is a series of

3384
02:55:39,879 --> 02:55:44,440
Speaker 7: roadblocks blocking access to the capital. These are largely the

3385
02:55:44,520 --> 02:55:48,840
Speaker 7: result of two kind of different, kind of related fights.

3386
02:55:48,840 --> 02:55:51,280
Speaker 7: The first one was an attempt at agricultural reform that

3387
02:55:51,280 --> 02:55:54,160
Speaker 7: would have done a whole bunch of sort I guess

3388
02:55:54,200 --> 02:55:58,040
Speaker 7: you'd call it like nineteen ninety four style Mexican constitution,

3389
02:55:58,800 --> 02:56:03,720
Speaker 7: like neoliberalization, like collectively held addious land. And then now

3390
02:56:03,760 --> 02:56:07,800
Speaker 7: the protests have been gaining steam over dire economic situation

3391
02:56:07,879 --> 02:56:11,039
Speaker 7: and the liberal reforms passed by their writing president after

3392
02:56:12,200 --> 02:56:15,640
Speaker 7: the MAAS effectively imploded during twenty twenty four and twenty

3393
02:56:15,640 --> 02:56:18,600
Speaker 7: twenty five, leading to the first writing president in Bolivia

3394
02:56:19,360 --> 02:56:22,120
Speaker 7: since the early two thousands, and also the re emergence

3395
02:56:22,160 --> 02:56:24,560
Speaker 7: of Carlos Mesa, a guy I literally never thought I

3396
02:56:24,560 --> 02:56:27,680
Speaker 7: would hear about again, but apparently is back somehow after

3397
02:56:27,760 --> 02:56:31,480
Speaker 7: getting ousted by like basically effectively the exact same style

3398
02:56:31,560 --> 02:56:33,680
Speaker 7: of mass roadblock protests in two thousand and five. He's

3399
02:56:33,720 --> 02:56:37,080
Speaker 7: now also back for some reason. But yeah, these protests

3400
02:56:37,080 --> 02:56:40,840
Speaker 7: are probably going to continue to escalate. We've reached the

3401
02:56:40,959 --> 02:56:45,800
Speaker 7: miners throwing dynamite phase of Oblivian protest, which tends to

3402
02:56:46,320 --> 02:56:52,080
Speaker 7: precede government's collapsing. We will see how this story progresses for.

3403
02:56:52,160 --> 02:56:56,400
Speaker 3: Our first main story, we'll discuss the shooting at an

3404
02:56:56,480 --> 02:56:58,200
Speaker 3: Islamic center in San Diego.

3405
02:56:59,160 --> 02:57:03,160
Speaker 4: James doing us to us off. Yeah, So the shooting

3406
02:57:03,240 --> 02:57:06,960
Speaker 4: happened on Monday, the eighteenth of May. Three people were killed.

3407
02:57:07,040 --> 02:57:09,600
Speaker 4: We'll go over a little bit about them in a second.

3408
02:57:09,640 --> 02:57:09,800
Speaker 1: Here.

3409
02:57:09,879 --> 02:57:11,720
Speaker 4: It happened at the Islamic Center of San Diego, which

3410
02:57:11,760 --> 02:57:14,720
Speaker 4: is the largest MASK in San Diego County. People might

3411
02:57:14,760 --> 02:57:17,080
Speaker 4: be familiar with the Islamic Center of San Diego because

3412
02:57:17,120 --> 02:57:20,520
Speaker 4: of other stories about surveillance on the MASK over the years.

3413
02:57:21,200 --> 02:57:24,920
Speaker 4: In this case, the two shooters were Kane Clark seventeen

3414
02:57:25,040 --> 02:57:30,160
Speaker 4: and Caleb Bavaskar's eighteen. Shortly after the shooting took place,

3415
02:57:30,240 --> 02:57:33,200
Speaker 4: police searched Kane Clark's house. It took them a long

3416
02:57:33,240 --> 02:57:35,160
Speaker 4: time to get a warrant. Normally they can use an

3417
02:57:35,200 --> 02:57:37,119
Speaker 4: e warrant for these things to get one very quickly,

3418
02:57:37,120 --> 02:57:41,440
Speaker 4: but some reason took several hours. Officers were actually at

3419
02:57:41,520 --> 02:57:45,320
Speaker 4: Clark's house when the shooting began. This was because his

3420
02:57:45,640 --> 02:57:49,400
Speaker 4: mother had called police to report her son was missing

3421
02:57:49,720 --> 02:57:53,680
Speaker 4: in her car in camouflage and had stolen her weapons.

3422
02:57:54,080 --> 02:57:58,800
Speaker 4: She called them two hours before the shooting began. Despite

3423
02:57:58,840 --> 02:58:02,039
Speaker 4: that they were able to make it to the Islamic

3424
02:58:02,040 --> 02:58:05,520
Speaker 4: center of San Diego, kill three people, then move further

3425
02:58:05,560 --> 02:58:09,200
Speaker 4: down the street and fire at a landscaper who seems

3426
02:58:09,240 --> 02:58:11,760
Speaker 4: to have been largely uninjured or not injured in a

3427
02:58:11,800 --> 02:58:15,320
Speaker 4: serious way. Then they proceeded further down the street before

3428
02:58:16,720 --> 02:58:19,120
Speaker 4: ending their lives. I think one of them shot the

3429
02:58:19,160 --> 02:58:22,520
Speaker 4: other and then shot themselves. I think it's worth noting

3430
02:58:22,560 --> 02:58:26,200
Speaker 4: that Sandiac has driven itself into debt, spending massive amounts

3431
02:58:26,200 --> 02:58:28,959
Speaker 4: of money, specifically on cops and specifically on surveillance, and

3432
02:58:29,040 --> 02:58:32,480
Speaker 4: neither of them did anything to prevent this. The San

3433
02:58:32,520 --> 02:58:36,960
Speaker 4: Diego Police Department received a call two hours before the shooting,

3434
02:58:37,640 --> 02:58:40,920
Speaker 4: to quote Police Chief Scott Wall quote, she believed herself

3435
02:58:41,000 --> 02:58:43,440
Speaker 4: was suicidal, and she began to share information that several

3436
02:58:43,480 --> 02:58:45,920
Speaker 4: of her weapons were missing, her vehicle was missing in

3437
02:58:45,920 --> 02:58:48,840
Speaker 4: addition to her son. Will said. She also said her

3438
02:58:48,840 --> 02:58:51,240
Speaker 4: son was with a companion. They were dressed in camera

3439
02:58:51,640 --> 02:58:53,560
Speaker 4: that it's not consistent with what we would typically see

3440
02:58:53,600 --> 02:58:56,920
Speaker 4: from someone who was suicidal. They tried to use their

3441
02:58:57,640 --> 02:59:01,840
Speaker 4: automated license plate readers referred to a Flock cameras Flock

3442
02:59:01,840 --> 02:59:04,560
Speaker 4: actually doesn't provide the hardware, and San Diego. Their only

3443
02:59:04,720 --> 02:59:07,200
Speaker 4: lead was a single hit in Fashion Valley, which is

3444
02:59:07,240 --> 02:59:09,840
Speaker 4: several miles away from where the shooting took place, also

3445
02:59:10,440 --> 02:59:15,400
Speaker 4: further from Clark's house than the sight of the shooting was.

3446
02:59:15,440 --> 02:59:18,560
Speaker 4: But Vasquez comes from Tchula Vista, which is much further south.

3447
02:59:19,320 --> 02:59:22,160
Speaker 4: There is no way that I can see to get

3448
02:59:22,200 --> 02:59:28,160
Speaker 4: from Fashion Valley too ICSD without passing automated license preate readers.

3449
02:59:28,720 --> 02:59:31,520
Speaker 4: You can't take surface streets and avoid them. I've ridden

3450
02:59:31,560 --> 02:59:33,160
Speaker 4: most of that route. This was the way I used

3451
02:59:33,160 --> 02:59:35,640
Speaker 4: to commute on my bicycle when I was teaching. In

3452
02:59:35,680 --> 02:59:38,280
Speaker 4: the end, that didn't make a difference. They weren't able

3453
02:59:38,280 --> 02:59:40,480
Speaker 4: to get there and prevent the shooting. Not a single

3454
02:59:40,480 --> 02:59:43,560
Speaker 4: office discharge their firearm. Last month of San Diego officer

3455
02:59:43,640 --> 02:59:45,720
Speaker 4: did discharge his firearm, and a lady with a ballpoint

3456
02:59:45,800 --> 02:59:49,240
Speaker 4: pen missing several times in a busy street. Let's talk

3457
02:59:49,240 --> 02:59:52,640
Speaker 4: about the three people who were killed here. Yeah, I

3458
02:59:52,680 --> 02:59:54,959
Speaker 4: think they're more important than.

3459
02:59:54,959 --> 02:59:58,879
Speaker 2: These Well, yeah, because they undeniably they've any of those

3460
02:59:58,920 --> 02:59:59,879
Speaker 2: kids from getting killed.

3461
03:00:00,160 --> 03:00:03,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, in a way that like is genuinely laudable and heroic.

3462
03:00:04,240 --> 03:00:04,760
Speaker 8: Yeah.

3463
03:00:05,000 --> 03:00:07,760
Speaker 4: So, Amina Abdullah was a security guard of the mosque.

3464
03:00:08,040 --> 03:00:11,279
Speaker 4: I saw a reported he had eight children. He seems

3465
03:00:11,320 --> 03:00:14,800
Speaker 4: to have significantly delayed the shooter by exchanging fire with

3466
03:00:14,920 --> 03:00:16,240
Speaker 4: both of the shooters.

3467
03:00:16,240 --> 03:00:18,920
Speaker 2: And initiating the mask's lockdown protocol.

3468
03:00:19,200 --> 03:00:22,160
Speaker 4: Yes, so he used his radio to initiate the lockdown protocol.

3469
03:00:22,560 --> 03:00:25,360
Speaker 4: The shooters live stream the shooting and I've reviewed some

3470
03:00:25,480 --> 03:00:28,520
Speaker 4: elements of that and you can see they basically get

3471
03:00:28,560 --> 03:00:30,800
Speaker 4: into the entrance of the mosque and then get hold

3472
03:00:30,879 --> 03:00:31,240
Speaker 4: up there.

3473
03:00:31,400 --> 03:00:34,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they moved past him and he engaged them.

3474
03:00:34,879 --> 03:00:35,240
Speaker 4: Correct.

3475
03:00:35,360 --> 03:00:37,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they were attempting to get past him to

3476
03:00:37,720 --> 03:00:41,520
Speaker 2: the kids, and he engaged them, drew them back, and yeah,

3477
03:00:41,560 --> 03:00:43,360
Speaker 2: I mean all of this would have been so much

3478
03:00:43,400 --> 03:00:45,320
Speaker 2: worse if he hadn't done what he did, which cost

3479
03:00:45,400 --> 03:00:46,040
Speaker 2: him his life.

3480
03:00:46,280 --> 03:00:49,480
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, Like, yeah, he engaged him. He continued to

3481
03:00:49,560 --> 03:00:53,280
Speaker 4: draw their fire lick until obviously he passed away. Other

3482
03:00:53,360 --> 03:00:59,080
Speaker 4: two victims Mansur Caziha known as Abu Aziz, who worked

3483
03:00:59,080 --> 03:01:02,440
Speaker 4: at a mosque for decad since they broke around. He

3484
03:01:02,560 --> 03:01:05,600
Speaker 4: was managing the store like the little gift shop snack shop,

3485
03:01:06,200 --> 03:01:09,480
Speaker 4: and Nadir al Wad. His wife teaches at the school

3486
03:01:09,520 --> 03:01:12,240
Speaker 4: and he lives right next door. He actually was at

3487
03:01:12,280 --> 03:01:14,600
Speaker 4: home when the shooting began and he ran toward the

3488
03:01:14,640 --> 03:01:17,360
Speaker 4: mosque when he heard the shooting, and it seems that

3489
03:01:17,440 --> 03:01:19,920
Speaker 4: both of them were in the parking lot, directing people

3490
03:01:19,920 --> 03:01:23,039
Speaker 4: away from the mosque and again drawing the attention of

3491
03:01:23,040 --> 03:01:28,039
Speaker 4: the shooter right so that unfortunately resulted in them both

3492
03:01:28,360 --> 03:01:31,480
Speaker 4: losing their lives. The shooters, as I said, then fled

3493
03:01:31,480 --> 03:01:34,840
Speaker 4: in a white BMW, shot at a landscaper, and then

3494
03:01:35,200 --> 03:01:38,360
Speaker 4: took their own lives. It appears that they met online.

3495
03:01:38,520 --> 03:01:41,879
Speaker 4: Basquez lives in Chula Vista, like a good distance away

3496
03:01:42,120 --> 03:01:45,280
Speaker 4: from where the shooting took place. There was a press

3497
03:01:45,320 --> 03:01:49,920
Speaker 4: conference shortly afterwards where the mayor was heckled. Gloria is

3498
03:01:49,920 --> 03:01:53,280
Speaker 4: a pretty unpopular mayor for a number of reasons, making

3499
03:01:53,360 --> 03:01:56,760
Speaker 4: San Diego very unlovable for poor people. He's consistently attacked

3500
03:01:57,000 --> 03:02:00,360
Speaker 4: and house population, I guess notably in this case because

3501
03:02:00,400 --> 03:02:02,960
Speaker 4: of the presence of a pro Palestinian artist. He boycotted

3502
03:02:02,959 --> 03:02:06,000
Speaker 4: our Pride march. But what it's worth Gloria himself is gay.

3503
03:02:07,040 --> 03:02:09,680
Speaker 4: City has had a really bad record of hate crimes,

3504
03:02:10,280 --> 03:02:13,480
Speaker 4: and I think in San Diego, because of this long

3505
03:02:13,560 --> 03:02:16,920
Speaker 4: history of hate crime and bigotry and anti blackness and

3506
03:02:16,959 --> 03:02:20,240
Speaker 4: anti Semitism and Islamophobia and the deep roots they have here.

3507
03:02:20,320 --> 03:02:24,520
Speaker 4: People assumed that these two young people would have come

3508
03:02:24,560 --> 03:02:27,360
Speaker 4: from East County, which is I think sometimes it's this

3509
03:02:27,520 --> 03:02:30,680
Speaker 4: myth right that like all bigotree exists kind of east

3510
03:02:30,680 --> 03:02:33,240
Speaker 4: of the fifteen and it's fine after that. That is

3511
03:02:33,400 --> 03:02:36,320
Speaker 4: very much not the case, and these two people do

3512
03:02:36,400 --> 03:02:39,240
Speaker 4: not come from that scene. They do not come from

3513
03:02:39,240 --> 03:02:42,240
Speaker 4: that world. There are groups that are white supremacist in

3514
03:02:42,280 --> 03:02:45,679
Speaker 4: East County, without a doubt many of them, and individuals

3515
03:02:45,720 --> 03:02:49,119
Speaker 4: who I mean Metzica was not living that far away, right,

3516
03:02:49,720 --> 03:02:53,400
Speaker 4: This is not that. Claremont, where Clark lived, is one

3517
03:02:53,440 --> 03:02:56,400
Speaker 4: of the most diverse neighborhoods. I have taught in high

3518
03:02:56,400 --> 03:02:59,760
Speaker 4: schools in Claremont. I taught in the community college there.

3519
03:03:00,200 --> 03:03:02,520
Speaker 4: Tons of my students over the years have been people

3520
03:03:02,520 --> 03:03:05,039
Speaker 4: who attended this moth school or they have children who

3521
03:03:05,040 --> 03:03:07,640
Speaker 4: go to the school in the preschool there. So yeah,

3522
03:03:07,680 --> 03:03:10,039
Speaker 4: this is like very close to home for me. I

3523
03:03:10,040 --> 03:03:13,680
Speaker 4: guess we should discuss a little of the shooter's kind

3524
03:03:13,680 --> 03:03:16,400
Speaker 4: of accelerationist worldview.

3525
03:03:16,480 --> 03:03:21,680
Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, yeah, the imagery and associated manifesto that

3526
03:03:22,040 --> 03:03:24,400
Speaker 3: leaked down line after the shooting.

3527
03:03:25,000 --> 03:03:27,440
Speaker 2: I mean just The shortest thing we can say before

3528
03:03:27,480 --> 03:03:29,360
Speaker 2: getting into it is that this is a christ Church

3529
03:03:29,600 --> 03:03:35,200
Speaker 2: inspired attack. Yes, motivated by anti like anti Islamic Islamophobia,

3530
03:03:35,280 --> 03:03:38,080
Speaker 2: right obviously, but also these shooters were very motivated by

3531
03:03:38,440 --> 03:03:42,840
Speaker 2: anti Semitic beliefs, by in cell beliefs, and by general

3532
03:03:42,879 --> 03:03:44,960
Speaker 2: fandom of mass shootings, you know.

3533
03:03:45,840 --> 03:03:46,080
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3534
03:03:46,120 --> 03:03:49,800
Speaker 3: The first inclination we had that this was LinkedIn Natz

3535
03:03:49,840 --> 03:03:55,160
Speaker 3: accelerationism was some pictures are released of the shooter's vehicle

3536
03:03:55,360 --> 03:03:59,920
Speaker 3: where a gas can had an SS sticker on it. Eventually,

3537
03:04:00,200 --> 03:04:04,920
Speaker 3: pictures came out of their weapons which had slogans like

3538
03:04:05,760 --> 03:04:09,600
Speaker 3: race war and hate speech written literally the words like

3539
03:04:09,640 --> 03:04:14,080
Speaker 3: hate speech just go on the weapon, Yeah, as well

3540
03:04:14,120 --> 03:04:17,560
Speaker 3: as wearing Nazi imagery on tactical clothing.

3541
03:04:18,840 --> 03:04:21,400
Speaker 2: Garrison will have more to say and we'll look at

3542
03:04:21,400 --> 03:04:36,520
Speaker 2: more about these shooters, but first, here's some ads and

3543
03:04:36,640 --> 03:04:38,000
Speaker 2: we're back, all right.

3544
03:04:39,200 --> 03:04:43,040
Speaker 3: To start off, I pretty much agree with extremism researcher

3545
03:04:43,120 --> 03:04:45,640
Speaker 3: Jared Holt, who's one of the best in the business

3546
03:04:46,160 --> 03:04:49,280
Speaker 3: that quote, these kids could not have been any clearer

3547
03:04:49,360 --> 03:04:53,600
Speaker 3: that they cooked their skulls on Neo Nazi accelerationists slop yep,

3548
03:04:53,720 --> 03:04:57,680
Speaker 3: their manifestos are as sloppy as they are extremist, but

3549
03:04:57,800 --> 03:05:00,879
Speaker 3: they do make clear they sought to be copycats.

3550
03:05:01,160 --> 03:05:01,600
Speaker 4: Unquote.

3551
03:05:02,200 --> 03:05:08,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an entirely, entirely correct yep analysis of what happened.

3552
03:05:08,760 --> 03:05:11,640
Speaker 2: It's one of the laziest manifestos in some ways. It's

3553
03:05:11,720 --> 03:05:15,440
Speaker 2: very patterned off of the christ Church shooter's manifesto, which

3554
03:05:15,520 --> 03:05:18,440
Speaker 2: was you know, say what you will about it, a

3555
03:05:18,480 --> 03:05:20,920
Speaker 2: fairly original work. Like there's one of the more notable

3556
03:05:20,920 --> 03:05:23,800
Speaker 2: segments of this is a chunk where they're talking about

3557
03:05:23,800 --> 03:05:26,840
Speaker 2: their beliefs. They talk about the Freemasons, and whichever one

3558
03:05:26,879 --> 03:05:28,400
Speaker 2: of them was writing that portion is like I don't

3559
03:05:28,400 --> 03:05:31,320
Speaker 2: actually know anything about them, but I know that they're bad. Basically,

3560
03:05:31,360 --> 03:05:33,200
Speaker 2: like they haven't had time to get into this part

3561
03:05:33,240 --> 03:05:37,360
Speaker 2: of the ideology, which is like it's very it's very sloppy,

3562
03:05:37,520 --> 03:05:42,400
Speaker 2: it's very online. It's very much a product of terrorgram

3563
03:05:42,560 --> 03:05:45,640
Speaker 2: you know, like in yes, like the sloppiness is part

3564
03:05:45,680 --> 03:05:47,959
Speaker 2: of the humor I kind of expect for these guys.

3565
03:05:48,000 --> 03:05:48,240
Speaker 8: Yeah.

3566
03:05:48,240 --> 03:05:51,640
Speaker 4: At large parts of it were just like parentheses unfinished yep.

3567
03:05:51,720 --> 03:05:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I think that's part of a bit,

3568
03:05:53,560 --> 03:05:53,720
Speaker 2: you know.

3569
03:05:54,280 --> 03:05:57,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the manifesto was titled Sons of Terrant, named

3570
03:05:57,840 --> 03:06:01,160
Speaker 3: after the christ Church shooter. Yeah, about half of it

3571
03:06:01,240 --> 03:06:04,600
Speaker 3: was written by each of the shooters, and it states

3572
03:06:04,600 --> 03:06:08,640
Speaker 3: that the Terrant was their biggest inspiration. The manifesto shows

3573
03:06:08,640 --> 03:06:13,040
Speaker 3: a deep referential knowledge of Nazi colorationism, but in a

3574
03:06:13,160 --> 03:06:16,279
Speaker 3: very like regurgitated sense, right almost is if you asked

3575
03:06:16,360 --> 03:06:19,640
Speaker 3: chat GPT to make a new Nazi colorationist manifesto. I'm

3576
03:06:19,640 --> 03:06:21,879
Speaker 3: not saying they actually did that, but that's the sort

3577
03:06:21,879 --> 03:06:23,160
Speaker 3: of like vibe that it has.

3578
03:06:23,320 --> 03:06:24,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very generic.

3579
03:06:24,480 --> 03:06:25,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's slopped.

3580
03:06:25,560 --> 03:06:27,760
Speaker 3: There's really nothing like new it all in there. It's

3581
03:06:27,800 --> 03:06:29,760
Speaker 3: mostly just referential.

3582
03:06:29,480 --> 03:06:31,800
Speaker 2: And it has that chat GPT vibe in part because

3583
03:06:32,160 --> 03:06:35,040
Speaker 2: they're just copying these other manifestos that were written by

3584
03:06:35,080 --> 03:06:38,560
Speaker 2: guys who were somewhat more original eve than them, and

3585
03:06:38,800 --> 03:06:41,840
Speaker 2: they came by it, I think primarily not even from

3586
03:06:41,959 --> 03:06:45,960
Speaker 2: initially scanning the original documents, but from seeing chopped up

3587
03:06:46,080 --> 03:06:49,280
Speaker 2: up pieces of them in these conversations that they're having

3588
03:06:49,280 --> 03:06:52,120
Speaker 2: in these like groups that they're in, and so it

3589
03:06:52,959 --> 03:06:56,039
Speaker 2: just kind of inculcates this slop mindset. They're like, this

3590
03:06:56,200 --> 03:06:58,800
Speaker 2: is kind of it's not just the manifesto that slop

3591
03:06:59,200 --> 03:07:04,519
Speaker 2: the way these people were radicalized. Probably was also slap Yeah.

3592
03:07:04,680 --> 03:07:07,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's this big element of like gen z irony

3593
03:07:07,920 --> 03:07:10,360
Speaker 3: throughout stuff like this, and you can see that on

3594
03:07:10,720 --> 03:07:13,480
Speaker 3: the shooter's TikTok and their Steam page, which has a

3595
03:07:13,480 --> 03:07:18,760
Speaker 3: whole bunch of anime Nazi Edits little TikTok dances with

3596
03:07:18,879 --> 03:07:23,720
Speaker 3: accelerationist imagery and like anime art. The way that these

3597
03:07:23,760 --> 03:07:27,680
Speaker 3: two shooters identified with Nazi excelerationism and mass killers is

3598
03:07:28,040 --> 03:07:29,600
Speaker 3: very close to the way a lot of people just

3599
03:07:29,640 --> 03:07:33,959
Speaker 3: identify with pop culture fandom. The columbine aspect is also

3600
03:07:34,200 --> 03:07:37,160
Speaker 3: pretty crucial here, and one of the shooters rites about

3601
03:07:37,160 --> 03:07:40,480
Speaker 3: that in the manifesto. On their Steam they had a

3602
03:07:40,480 --> 03:07:45,120
Speaker 3: anime columbine edit. Yeah, trying to understand a shooting like

3603
03:07:45,160 --> 03:07:50,800
Speaker 3: this as just primarily ideologically driven has its limits, right,

3604
03:07:51,240 --> 03:07:52,879
Speaker 3: That's certainly an aspect of it.

3605
03:07:52,920 --> 03:07:54,000
Speaker 5: That's very clear.

3606
03:07:54,200 --> 03:07:58,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, ideological imagery is front and center, but there's also

3607
03:07:58,120 --> 03:08:00,840
Speaker 3: this copycat aspect and like the Saint lineage of these

3608
03:08:00,879 --> 03:08:04,440
Speaker 3: shooters trying to make themselves infamous bysocting themselves with these

3609
03:08:04,440 --> 03:08:07,720
Speaker 3: other mass killers, and the in group signaling is what

3610
03:08:07,840 --> 03:08:10,600
Speaker 3: the fashion of ideology is resting on.

3611
03:08:10,879 --> 03:08:13,880
Speaker 2: Yes, the in group signaling is key because when you

3612
03:08:14,040 --> 03:08:17,720
Speaker 2: just say they're trying to like copy their copycasts, they're

3613
03:08:17,720 --> 03:08:20,240
Speaker 2: trying to copy these other killers, then that makes people

3614
03:08:20,280 --> 03:08:23,640
Speaker 2: think of someone who is kind of purely narcissistically so

3615
03:08:23,840 --> 03:08:27,400
Speaker 2: focused on the outside on how people see them as

3616
03:08:27,400 --> 03:08:30,320
Speaker 2: a result of their act. But at least equally important

3617
03:08:30,480 --> 03:08:33,720
Speaker 2: is this group of folks that they socialize with in

3618
03:08:33,800 --> 03:08:37,080
Speaker 2: these telegram chats and other communities that they think are

3619
03:08:37,120 --> 03:08:39,080
Speaker 2: cool and that they like, and they are trying That's

3620
03:08:39,080 --> 03:08:40,720
Speaker 2: why the manifesto is the way it is. That's why

3621
03:08:40,720 --> 03:08:42,440
Speaker 2: the christ Church Manifesto was the way it was. They're

3622
03:08:42,480 --> 03:08:46,480
Speaker 2: trying to signal to their differing communities of people online.

3623
03:08:46,720 --> 03:08:48,480
Speaker 3: It's like part of a fan It's is like the

3624
03:08:48,520 --> 03:08:51,360
Speaker 3: way that we think of pop culture. That's what this

3625
03:08:51,600 --> 03:08:54,320
Speaker 3: is for a small number of young people online.

3626
03:08:54,600 --> 03:08:56,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like it go. It's not just even

3627
03:08:56,920 --> 03:08:58,840
Speaker 2: Nazi stuff. Like I've seen a lot of people making

3628
03:08:58,840 --> 03:09:00,879
Speaker 2: a big deal about the fact that one of the

3629
03:09:00,879 --> 03:09:05,520
Speaker 2: shooters had a profile image of a character Ashley Graves from.

3630
03:09:05,760 --> 03:09:06,840
Speaker 4: The Incest video game.

3631
03:09:07,000 --> 03:09:09,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, a video game called The Coffin of Andy and Leiley,

3632
03:09:09,240 --> 03:09:11,680
Speaker 2: which is like a really fucked up incest video game

3633
03:09:11,720 --> 03:09:14,360
Speaker 2: and she's like she's like specifically like a really bad

3634
03:09:14,520 --> 03:09:18,040
Speaker 2: evil person. And it's like the comments I've seen are

3635
03:09:18,040 --> 03:09:20,439
Speaker 2: basically like, yeah, I'm not surprised that he would idolize

3636
03:09:20,480 --> 03:09:22,440
Speaker 2: someone who would do this, would like idolize a character

3637
03:09:22,680 --> 03:09:25,840
Speaker 2: like that. It's a bit yeah, it's like that. That's yeah,

3638
03:09:25,879 --> 03:09:28,359
Speaker 2: these are these are all things that are like popular

3639
03:09:28,440 --> 03:09:30,880
Speaker 2: in these weird little chunks of the right. Like it's

3640
03:09:30,959 --> 03:09:34,480
Speaker 2: it's it's an encompassing thing. It's not just these people

3641
03:09:34,680 --> 03:09:36,959
Speaker 2: are Nazis or these people want to be famous. And

3642
03:09:37,000 --> 03:09:39,039
Speaker 2: if you're just looking at the at that, then you're

3643
03:09:39,040 --> 03:09:41,760
Speaker 2: going to be confused by this like very sloppy seeming

3644
03:09:41,800 --> 03:09:45,520
Speaker 2: manifesto unless you understand it's there to make their friends laugh, you.

3645
03:09:45,480 --> 03:09:48,680
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, I mean like and and as ideological as

3646
03:09:48,680 --> 03:09:52,400
Speaker 3: this is, it's just as mimetic. Yeah, even if the

3647
03:09:52,480 --> 03:09:55,120
Speaker 3: overt Nazi stuff is very strong in this case, and

3648
03:09:55,160 --> 03:09:57,880
Speaker 3: as much as people will focus on the Nazi stuff

3649
03:09:57,879 --> 03:10:00,240
Speaker 3: and a lot of the reporting, we can't over look

3650
03:10:00,280 --> 03:10:02,880
Speaker 3: this sort of like fandom and like column buine aspect.

3651
03:10:02,959 --> 03:10:06,240
Speaker 3: You know, crucially, there's two shooters here that's very very

3652
03:10:06,240 --> 03:10:09,360
Speaker 3: column bin esque and that's something they acknowledge in the manifesto.

3653
03:10:10,120 --> 03:10:12,960
Speaker 3: They did live stream the shooting in a discord call,

3654
03:10:13,640 --> 03:10:17,640
Speaker 3: so there were people aware that this shooting was happening

3655
03:10:17,680 --> 03:10:20,120
Speaker 3: since before the shooting started, people to hop on to

3656
03:10:20,280 --> 03:10:21,000
Speaker 3: this call.

3657
03:10:21,200 --> 03:10:24,400
Speaker 4: Shoes, It's said in their manifesto the I'm going to

3658
03:10:24,480 --> 03:10:26,120
Speaker 4: wait until they had a good number of people on

3659
03:10:26,160 --> 03:10:30,440
Speaker 4: the call before starting so they could ensure someone recorded it,

3660
03:10:30,440 --> 03:10:31,720
Speaker 4: which indeed someone did.

3661
03:10:32,400 --> 03:10:33,720
Speaker 3: Just as a side note here, I've seen a lot

3662
03:10:33,720 --> 03:10:35,400
Speaker 3: of people talk about this as like a as like

3663
03:10:35,560 --> 03:10:38,560
Speaker 3: quote unquote seven six' four, shooting all, right seven six

3664
03:10:38,640 --> 03:10:42,480
Speaker 3: four refers to a specific group of or a specific

3665
03:10:42,480 --> 03:10:46,360
Speaker 3: online community that does child likes. Exploitation they try to

3666
03:10:46,440 --> 03:10:50,240
Speaker 3: extract and blackmail children into providing child sexual best material

3667
03:10:50,440 --> 03:10:54,960
Speaker 3: and sometimes convincing children to also do acts of. Violence

3668
03:10:55,840 --> 03:10:59,080
Speaker 3: there is not an explicit seven six four connection THAT

3669
03:10:59,120 --> 03:11:02,160
Speaker 3: i am aware of at this. Point sometimes these communities

3670
03:11:02,200 --> 03:11:04,959
Speaker 3: do overlapped interseex SO i wouldn't be surprised if there

3671
03:11:05,120 --> 03:11:07,760
Speaker 3: is something seven six foot related that comes out about

3672
03:11:07,760 --> 03:11:11,240
Speaker 3: one of these shooters. Eventually, sure but THIS i think

3673
03:11:11,440 --> 03:11:15,000
Speaker 3: that framing that that understanding is slightly. MISTAKEN i think

3674
03:11:15,680 --> 03:11:18,800
Speaker 3: people jump to that very. Often there was obviously the

3675
03:11:18,840 --> 03:11:22,320
Speaker 3: sort of like group element of this. Shooting they're streaming

3676
03:11:22,400 --> 03:11:25,039
Speaker 3: it in a discord, call BUT i THINK sem six

3677
03:11:25,080 --> 03:11:28,720
Speaker 3: floor does actually refer to a specific. Group it's not

3678
03:11:28,920 --> 03:11:32,680
Speaker 3: just you, know neo natzic acceleraationist shooters in. General i've

3679
03:11:32,680 --> 03:11:37,680
Speaker 3: seen some people question why a mosque was chosen as

3680
03:11:37,680 --> 03:11:41,599
Speaker 3: the target if a lot of the manifesto is, antisemitic

3681
03:11:41,760 --> 03:11:46,039
Speaker 3: that's kind of like the crux of their. Ideology they

3682
03:11:46,040 --> 03:11:50,120
Speaker 3: did The Islamic center likely because they wanted to specifically Copy, Terrant.

3683
03:11:50,240 --> 03:11:52,480
Speaker 3: Right that's even down to the clothes that they're. Wearing

3684
03:11:52,520 --> 03:11:54,760
Speaker 3: the military fatigues that they're wearing are very similar to

3685
03:11:54,760 --> 03:11:57,800
Speaker 3: What terran wore in the, manifestos even around the same

3686
03:11:57,879 --> 03:12:01,080
Speaker 3: length of As terrence. Manifesto, Yeah AND i think a

3687
03:12:01,200 --> 03:12:02,720
Speaker 3: vital part of this and when you when you're looking

3688
03:12:02,760 --> 03:12:05,080
Speaker 3: at this sort of which seems like things that are

3689
03:12:05,120 --> 03:12:08,400
Speaker 3: incongruent between what they're writing and what they're, doing it's

3690
03:12:08,440 --> 03:12:10,880
Speaker 3: that this is sort of the most advanced stage of

3691
03:12:10,920 --> 03:12:13,320
Speaker 3: the production of politics to, aesthetics and it's reached a

3692
03:12:13,400 --> 03:12:17,320
Speaker 3: point where like the aesthetic itself is like the medically. Alive,

3693
03:12:17,520 --> 03:12:20,200
Speaker 3: yes in a way that's you, know in a way

3694
03:12:20,200 --> 03:12:22,600
Speaker 3: that operates independently of like what the people who made

3695
03:12:22,640 --> 03:12:25,320
Speaker 3: the ideology were trying to. Do and now the aesthetic

3696
03:12:25,400 --> 03:12:27,320
Speaker 3: itself is getting people to just do the, things and

3697
03:12:27,320 --> 03:12:31,039
Speaker 3: so they're doing it for the, esthetic which is what

3698
03:12:31,080 --> 03:12:34,960
Speaker 3: the politics has been turned. Into and you, know even

3699
03:12:35,080 --> 03:12:37,160
Speaker 3: like the selection of video games they have on This steam,

3700
03:12:37,160 --> 03:12:41,040
Speaker 3: profile he's designed with this in. Mind the incest, game one,

3701
03:12:41,080 --> 03:12:43,760
Speaker 3: example parts Of iron four is also included on The

3702
03:12:43,760 --> 03:12:44,199
Speaker 3: steam Pro.

3703
03:12:44,280 --> 03:12:45,360
Speaker 2: God of course it fucking.

3704
03:12:45,480 --> 03:12:46,560
Speaker 4: Is but here's the.

3705
03:12:46,600 --> 03:12:47,240
Speaker 7: Thing here's the.

3706
03:12:47,240 --> 03:12:51,119
Speaker 3: Thing the shooter unlocked no. Achievements they weren't even.

3707
03:12:51,160 --> 03:12:54,280
Speaker 2: Playing it's about being cool to your.

3708
03:12:54,320 --> 03:12:56,000
Speaker 4: Buds they weren't even playing the.

3709
03:12:56,120 --> 03:12:58,800
Speaker 3: Game but he but he wanted to include the game

3710
03:12:58,879 --> 03:13:01,680
Speaker 3: on the profile because it references or has been a

3711
03:13:01,680 --> 03:13:04,240
Speaker 3: part of other Neo nazi accelerationists in the.

3712
03:13:04,240 --> 03:13:04,520
Speaker 7: Past.

3713
03:13:04,600 --> 03:13:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, similarly a lot of like The enemy visual novels

3714
03:13:07,200 --> 03:13:09,520
Speaker 3: included on the profile seem to be.

3715
03:13:09,720 --> 03:13:13,840
Speaker 2: Unplayed, yeah it doesn't happen. Enough this gets looked at

3716
03:13:14,000 --> 03:13:17,800
Speaker 2: because of how horrifying the actions are as something separate

3717
03:13:17,920 --> 03:13:22,240
Speaker 2: fundamentally from like all the other shit that like dumb,

3718
03:13:22,240 --> 03:13:24,640
Speaker 2: shit young people do to be cool and it really

3719
03:13:24,640 --> 03:13:26,039
Speaker 2: shouldn't entirely.

3720
03:13:26,000 --> 03:13:29,039
Speaker 3: Or just being, suicidal, right or just being extremely mentally

3721
03:13:29,080 --> 03:13:31,879
Speaker 3: like unwell and like, underregulated socially.

3722
03:13:31,879 --> 03:13:37,040
Speaker 2: DISINTEGRATED i think the desperation to fit in anywhere is

3723
03:13:37,080 --> 03:13:39,440
Speaker 2: tied with that sort of thing, too, Right like the

3724
03:13:39,480 --> 03:13:42,080
Speaker 2: fact that you would lie about the stuff you're interested

3725
03:13:42,120 --> 03:13:44,200
Speaker 2: with in order to put on this image that is

3726
03:13:44,280 --> 03:13:47,320
Speaker 2: more fitting for what you think this community wants to

3727
03:13:47,360 --> 03:13:48,200
Speaker 2: see from. You you.

3728
03:13:48,240 --> 03:13:50,960
Speaker 3: Know part of the tragedy here is that these, people

3729
03:13:51,080 --> 03:13:55,000
Speaker 3: as kids found community in these acceleration of spaces that

3730
03:13:55,040 --> 03:13:57,520
Speaker 3: became the primary way they socialize in a very similar

3731
03:13:57,640 --> 03:14:01,360
Speaker 3: vein as a lot of people socialized online About Star

3732
03:14:01,480 --> 03:14:05,640
Speaker 3: wars or whatever anime is popular on, TikTok or like

3733
03:14:06,280 --> 03:14:10,520
Speaker 3: those other fandom spaces that are not designed around going

3734
03:14:10,560 --> 03:14:12,480
Speaker 3: into a place of worship or a school and killing

3735
03:14:12,520 --> 03:14:12,760
Speaker 3: tons of.

3736
03:14:12,800 --> 03:14:17,480
Speaker 4: People, YEAH i GUESS i should just Sayreal, briefly THE

3737
03:14:17,640 --> 03:14:25,560
Speaker 4: fbi removed thirty firearms From Cane clark's family. Home it

3738
03:14:25,800 --> 03:14:28,640
Speaker 4: seems still the firearms they. Use for whatever it's, worth

3739
03:14:28,720 --> 03:14:30,920
Speaker 4: it just make a huge, DIFFERENCE i, guess other than

3740
03:14:30,959 --> 03:14:33,960
Speaker 4: to say that like these were all complying With california.

3741
03:14:34,040 --> 03:14:37,280
Speaker 4: Law california has very strict gun. Laws it's very hard

3742
03:14:37,320 --> 03:14:40,240
Speaker 4: in this country to stop people getting the means to

3743
03:14:40,320 --> 03:14:40,840
Speaker 4: kill lots of.

3744
03:14:40,840 --> 03:14:44,640
Speaker 2: PEOPLE i mean that, said it's entirely possible that that

3745
03:14:45,080 --> 03:14:47,280
Speaker 2: is why there weren't more people. Killed you, know we

3746
03:14:47,320 --> 03:14:50,280
Speaker 2: really it's impossible to say that the gun that they

3747
03:14:50,280 --> 03:14:54,440
Speaker 2: were using isn't wildly different from an ar in this

3748
03:14:54,640 --> 03:14:58,440
Speaker 2: kind of. Situation but you, know there's limitations on the

3749
03:14:58,480 --> 03:15:01,520
Speaker 2: amount of m and a mag or whatever then may

3750
03:15:01,600 --> 03:15:03,320
Speaker 2: have had some. IMPACT i don't really HAVE i don't

3751
03:15:03,360 --> 03:15:06,320
Speaker 2: have enough granular detail about all of, that and it's

3752
03:15:06,320 --> 03:15:08,879
Speaker 2: also kind of impossible to, say but, yeah these were

3753
03:15:08,879 --> 03:15:09,760
Speaker 2: All kali legal.

3754
03:15:09,800 --> 03:15:13,160
Speaker 4: Guns, yeah you see the kid IF i would not

3755
03:15:13,200 --> 03:15:15,360
Speaker 4: suggest watching the, VIDEO i don't think anyone needs to

3756
03:15:15,360 --> 03:15:15,600
Speaker 4: watch the.

3757
03:15:15,680 --> 03:15:18,560
Speaker 3: Video it's not good for. You this is no reason

3758
03:15:18,600 --> 03:15:21,039
Speaker 3: to watch it or read the. Manifesto there's nothing in.

3759
03:15:21,080 --> 03:15:25,080
Speaker 4: There, yeah none of this will make your, grief you,

3760
03:15:25,080 --> 03:15:27,959
Speaker 4: know more more? Real ya is your solidarity more? Completely

3761
03:15:28,000 --> 03:15:29,440
Speaker 4: you don't need to. Do you see the kid fuck

3762
03:15:29,520 --> 03:15:31,920
Speaker 4: up the window for a while in a, video which is.

3763
03:15:31,959 --> 03:15:34,520
Speaker 4: GOOD i wish someone had fucking shot him when he

3764
03:15:34,600 --> 03:15:36,840
Speaker 4: was doing. That one of the last THINGS i want to.

3765
03:15:36,879 --> 03:15:41,200
Speaker 3: Add there has been an attempt by some popular right

3766
03:15:41,240 --> 03:15:45,039
Speaker 3: wing figures to try to turn this into another trans.

3767
03:15:45,040 --> 03:15:48,279
Speaker 2: Shooting, yeah Specifically Elon.

3768
03:15:48,360 --> 03:15:51,240
Speaker 5: Musk, Yes Elon musk has boosted.

3769
03:15:51,240 --> 03:15:55,359
Speaker 3: Claims, yeah completely unfounded, false just actually outright.

3770
03:15:55,080 --> 03:15:57,680
Speaker 2: False absolute lies admitted by the.

3771
03:15:57,760 --> 03:16:02,520
Speaker 3: Opage he's just lying false iss that either one or

3772
03:16:02,600 --> 03:16:05,760
Speaker 3: both of the shooters were a. Transgender this seems to

3773
03:16:05,800 --> 03:16:09,039
Speaker 3: be primarily using a picture of one of them that

3774
03:16:09,120 --> 03:16:12,880
Speaker 3: has long hair as the sort of quote unquote evidence

3775
03:16:13,480 --> 03:16:13,840
Speaker 3: they are not.

3776
03:16:13,920 --> 03:16:15,120
Speaker 4: Trans neither of them are.

3777
03:16:15,160 --> 03:16:19,039
Speaker 3: Trans they write about HATING lgbtq people in the.

3778
03:16:19,120 --> 03:16:22,400
Speaker 2: Manifesto they're not. Trans it's not a trends. Shooting, no

3779
03:16:22,480 --> 03:16:24,320
Speaker 2: they hating trans people in. Particular.

3780
03:16:24,600 --> 03:16:27,959
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah but you know they're just like these people

3781
03:16:28,080 --> 03:16:30,440
Speaker 7: Like Elon musk and all threight when people doing this

3782
03:16:30,560 --> 03:16:34,280
Speaker 7: like they're just overtly doing The Julius striker Like Dear,

3783
03:16:34,360 --> 03:16:37,560
Speaker 7: stormer Like jewish crime, shit like that's just all this this.

3784
03:16:37,680 --> 03:16:39,600
Speaker 7: Point it's, yeah.

3785
03:16:39,520 --> 03:16:42,840
Speaker 2: They don't think it's true anymore than like we. Do

3786
03:16:42,920 --> 03:16:45,680
Speaker 2: they just know that you've got in this period of

3787
03:16:45,720 --> 03:16:48,840
Speaker 2: time right after something like this, happens if you flood

3788
03:16:48,879 --> 03:16:50,920
Speaker 2: the zone with shit like, that some number of people

3789
03:16:51,040 --> 03:16:53,960
Speaker 2: will never get. Corrected that's all this. Is, yeah reality

3790
03:16:54,000 --> 03:16:56,400
Speaker 2: is very malleable in those first few. Hours.

3791
03:16:56,800 --> 03:16:59,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, YEAH i think some of them will also think it's. Funny.

3792
03:16:59,680 --> 03:17:01,760
Speaker 4: YEAH i think in the same way it signals that

3793
03:17:01,800 --> 03:17:03,720
Speaker 4: you're calls to your friends and in the same way

3794
03:17:03,720 --> 03:17:06,640
Speaker 4: that these people did, that like it's. Disgusting, wow it's

3795
03:17:06,680 --> 03:17:07,280
Speaker 4: all the same.

3796
03:17:07,320 --> 03:17:09,560
Speaker 7: Thing, yeah we're doing the meme.

3797
03:17:09,680 --> 03:17:13,400
Speaker 2: Genocide it's arguably genocide has always been a.

3798
03:17:13,440 --> 03:17:13,680
Speaker 9: Meme.

3799
03:17:14,560 --> 03:17:18,480
Speaker 4: Yeah the whole thing has been really hard on The

3800
03:17:18,480 --> 03:17:20,320
Speaker 4: San diego community where we have a big fire At

3801
03:17:20,320 --> 03:17:24,240
Speaker 4: EASTER i ll aposto as well getting under. Control we

3802
03:17:24,360 --> 03:17:27,840
Speaker 4: will share a fundraiser for the families of the three

3803
03:17:27,840 --> 03:17:31,080
Speaker 4: people who unfortunately lost their. Lives it's already upper half

3804
03:17:31,080 --> 03:17:34,800
Speaker 4: a million, dollars which is nice to. See but, YEAH

3805
03:17:34,879 --> 03:17:37,440
Speaker 4: i know that that mask specifically has spent so much

3806
03:17:37,480 --> 03:17:41,039
Speaker 4: time on. SECURITY i know they've applied for, grants LIKE i,

3807
03:17:41,080 --> 03:17:43,080
Speaker 4: know they've they've done everything they. Can they have, cameras

3808
03:17:43,080 --> 03:17:46,440
Speaker 4: they had armed. Security They it's really sad that this

3809
03:17:46,520 --> 03:17:49,680
Speaker 4: community felt that this might happen and it. Happened you

3810
03:17:49,720 --> 03:17:52,400
Speaker 4: know that they felt that they weren't, safe And i've

3811
03:17:52,400 --> 03:17:57,560
Speaker 4: filed some public records requests that will take weeks months

3812
03:17:57,600 --> 03:17:59,800
Speaker 4: to come. Back but if there is more reporting on

3813
03:17:59,840 --> 03:18:03,360
Speaker 4: this to be, done we will do, it especially like

3814
03:18:03,400 --> 03:18:05,640
Speaker 4: this is WHERE i, live this is my, community So

3815
03:18:05,920 --> 03:18:08,120
Speaker 4: i'm going to try my best to find out as

3816
03:18:08,200 --> 03:18:11,680
Speaker 4: much AS i. Can but, yeah it's a tragedy right.

3817
03:18:11,720 --> 03:18:14,959
Speaker 3: Now before we go on and ad, BREAK i have

3818
03:18:15,360 --> 03:18:20,080
Speaker 3: one more story. Here On, tuesday there was a primary

3819
03:18:20,120 --> 03:18:25,520
Speaker 3: election In. Kentucky Incumbent Libertarian Republican Thomas massey lost the

3820
03:18:25,560 --> 03:18:28,480
Speaker 3: election by ten points to A pak And trump backed,

3821
03:18:28,600 --> 03:18:33,760
Speaker 3: Challenger Ed. Gallrain massey broke With trump over the release

3822
03:18:33,840 --> 03:18:37,360
Speaker 3: of The epstein, files though Unlike margree taymc, green he

3823
03:18:37,400 --> 03:18:40,000
Speaker 3: did not step down but continued to serve In, congress

3824
03:18:40,080 --> 03:18:42,760
Speaker 3: opposing The One Big Beautiful, bill The war On iran

3825
03:18:43,080 --> 03:18:47,400
Speaker 3: and aid To. Israel trump's Selected, gallarin a Former navy,

3826
03:18:47,440 --> 03:18:51,480
Speaker 3: seal to run Against, massey and this election became the

3827
03:18:51,520 --> 03:18:56,879
Speaker 3: most expensive primary In house race. History Great apak and

3828
03:18:56,959 --> 03:18:59,800
Speaker 3: other Pro israel lobbying groups spent over nine million dollars

3829
03:18:59,800 --> 03:19:03,280
Speaker 3: to unseen Massive, jesus and overall ad spending in this

3830
03:19:03,320 --> 03:19:07,439
Speaker 3: primary reached over thirty three million Dollars.

3831
03:19:08,280 --> 03:19:10,280
Speaker 7: Jesus's wide receiver one.

3832
03:19:10,400 --> 03:19:13,600
Speaker 3: Money, yeah it's, wild it's this is this is crazy

3833
03:19:13,800 --> 03:19:14,760
Speaker 3: for A kentucky house.

3834
03:19:14,800 --> 03:19:16,920
Speaker 5: Scene that's. Good that's gonna go to A republican either.

3835
03:19:16,959 --> 03:19:19,879
Speaker 2: Way it's it's just A trump's ego.

3836
03:19:19,959 --> 03:19:22,920
Speaker 3: Thing it's like A Trump israel. Thing, yeah it's it's

3837
03:19:22,959 --> 03:19:23,840
Speaker 3: it's pretty.

3838
03:19:23,879 --> 03:19:26,600
Speaker 2: Wild, yeah, Yeah israel, too. Obviously, yeah of course.

3839
03:19:26,640 --> 03:19:29,519
Speaker 3: The pros are a. Lot you funded a, significant significant

3840
03:19:29,520 --> 03:19:30,280
Speaker 3: part of the ad.

3841
03:19:30,320 --> 03:19:30,879
Speaker 4: Spending it's.

3842
03:19:30,959 --> 03:19:34,480
Speaker 3: Crazy another interesting, factor packs on both sides of this

3843
03:19:34,560 --> 03:19:39,800
Speaker 3: race USED ai deep fake ads depicting the opposing. CANDIDATE

3844
03:19:40,400 --> 03:19:44,920
Speaker 3: i want to briefly show some of, these not the whole,

3845
03:19:44,959 --> 03:19:47,960
Speaker 3: ones just just very short clips, together like the sense

3846
03:19:48,000 --> 03:19:49,480
Speaker 3: of of what of what the deal is?

3847
03:19:49,520 --> 03:19:51,720
Speaker 7: Here incredible impending sense of.

3848
03:19:51,879 --> 03:19:53,800
Speaker 4: Dread, YEAH i love.

3849
03:19:53,840 --> 03:19:57,920
Speaker 13: It These trump, traders they can't stand our president and

3850
03:19:58,040 --> 03:20:00,600
Speaker 13: can't help but let it. Show like O eddy gal

3851
03:20:00,720 --> 03:20:04,800
Speaker 13: Rynd Oo geddy left The Republican party After trump won

3852
03:20:04,840 --> 03:20:08,240
Speaker 13: THE gop nomination in twenty. Sixteen take a look for

3853
03:20:08,320 --> 03:20:12,720
Speaker 13: yourself and when Did wogedy change his registration back to

3854
03:20:12,800 --> 03:20:17,240
Speaker 13: THE Gop After Joe biden was sworn, In trump was

3855
03:20:17,280 --> 03:20:20,480
Speaker 13: in the foxhole and okty Gal rynd tucked his tail

3856
03:20:20,600 --> 03:20:23,360
Speaker 13: and Ran kentucky fourth the back is responsible for the

3857
03:20:23,400 --> 03:20:23,880
Speaker 13: content of this.

3858
03:20:23,959 --> 03:20:25,160
Speaker 2: Ad oh my, god it's.

3859
03:20:25,160 --> 03:20:26,200
Speaker 4: Done Donald trump.

3860
03:20:26,440 --> 03:20:37,000
Speaker 3: Side this is the craziest part of the ad where

3861
03:20:37,040 --> 03:20:41,080
Speaker 3: a deep Fake Donald trump is in the trenches with a.

3862
03:20:41,160 --> 03:20:44,080
Speaker 7: Rifle it just looks like a. Photoshop it looks it

3863
03:20:44,120 --> 03:20:45,560
Speaker 7: looks like a Shitty moan photo.

3864
03:20:45,680 --> 03:20:47,080
Speaker 4: Shot, yeah Like World.

3865
03:20:46,840 --> 03:20:48,879
Speaker 2: War one or. Two it could kind of be.

3866
03:20:48,840 --> 03:20:50,800
Speaker 4: EITHER i think of GIVING D, day, right like you

3867
03:20:50,879 --> 03:20:54,039
Speaker 4: got the tank, barriers like he's got The grande the tank.

3868
03:20:54,160 --> 03:20:55,720
Speaker 2: Barriers but that looks that is that a?

3869
03:20:55,720 --> 03:20:58,400
Speaker 4: Garage, yeah because he fighted it twice without running the.

3870
03:20:58,440 --> 03:21:01,279
Speaker 7: BANK i don't think they know who we're.

3871
03:21:02,520 --> 03:21:03,480
Speaker 4: Going to this and they have.

3872
03:21:03,600 --> 03:21:05,920
Speaker 2: Already his camo doesn't look anyway what?

3873
03:21:05,959 --> 03:21:06,240
Speaker 4: Happened?

3874
03:21:06,440 --> 03:21:10,520
Speaker 3: True so Woke Eddie gueran right, away As trump was

3875
03:21:10,640 --> 03:21:11,720
Speaker 3: in the, trenches.

3876
03:21:11,440 --> 03:21:14,960
Speaker 4: The foxhole, garrison the. Foxhole my apologies under.

3877
03:21:15,000 --> 03:21:17,840
Speaker 3: Fire this is the Pro massy, ad, Right so the

3878
03:21:17,879 --> 03:21:22,080
Speaker 3: promasciads are trying to frame The, trump The trump backed

3879
03:21:22,200 --> 03:21:25,000
Speaker 3: candidate as woke Woke Eddie.

3880
03:21:25,000 --> 03:21:27,240
Speaker 2: Gallay, YEAH i love, IT i love.

3881
03:21:27,280 --> 03:21:28,840
Speaker 4: It who Abandoned?

3882
03:21:28,959 --> 03:21:34,000
Speaker 5: Trump, meanwhile the Anti massy ads looked like.

3883
03:21:34,040 --> 03:21:38,439
Speaker 9: This Thomas mercy caught in a thropple In washington.

3884
03:21:39,120 --> 03:21:44,920
Speaker 4: With the squad on the what, no what is happening?

3885
03:21:45,480 --> 03:21:48,320
Speaker 9: Mess he voted just the squad against Finishing trump's. Wall

3886
03:21:48,920 --> 03:21:51,199
Speaker 9: he voted with them against hiring new border.

3887
03:21:51,240 --> 03:21:53,680
Speaker 1: Agents, jesus this is as.

3888
03:21:53,879 --> 03:21:57,600
Speaker 9: Adultery it's a complete and total betrayal Of President trump

3889
03:21:57,680 --> 03:22:02,040
Speaker 9: And kentucky. Conservatives On may, nineteen Fire Thomas Massy Mega

3890
03:22:02,080 --> 03:22:03,879
Speaker 9: kentucky is responsible for the content of this.

3891
03:22:03,920 --> 03:22:06,680
Speaker 2: ADVERTISING i guess the upside of this is the term

3892
03:22:06,800 --> 03:22:12,560
Speaker 2: thrupples really gonna. Mainstream. Huh they trust people in just

3893
03:22:12,680 --> 03:22:17,560
Speaker 2: like small Town kentucky didn't know what this Was Thomas.

3894
03:22:17,560 --> 03:22:20,760
Speaker 3: Massey is it a quote unquote throufle with the squad

3895
03:22:21,360 --> 03:22:24,640
Speaker 3: showing him holding hands the squad is more than showing

3896
03:22:24,680 --> 03:22:30,280
Speaker 3: him holding hands WITH aoc and other deep faked interactions

3897
03:22:30,400 --> 03:22:32,080
Speaker 3: BETWEEN aoc and Elan.

3898
03:22:32,160 --> 03:22:34,520
Speaker 2: Omar yeah, great cool.

3899
03:22:34,560 --> 03:22:38,160
Speaker 4: Stuff yeah. Wow the cable news generation really going to

3900
03:22:38,240 --> 03:22:39,879
Speaker 4: be having that minds melted by that.

3901
03:22:40,000 --> 03:22:43,760
Speaker 3: Shit, lastly an ongoing story we followed ON edi the

3902
03:22:43,760 --> 03:22:46,160
Speaker 3: past few months is Whether trump will endorse in The

3903
03:22:46,200 --> 03:22:50,480
Speaker 3: Republican senate runoff In. Texas early reports indicated That trump

3904
03:22:50,520 --> 03:22:54,400
Speaker 3: would back Incumbent Senator John cornyn over mega hardliner And

3905
03:22:54,440 --> 03:22:58,680
Speaker 3: texas Ag Ken, paxton But trump seemed irritated that his

3906
03:22:58,760 --> 03:23:02,280
Speaker 3: intentions were, leaked and following, That paxton started to make

3907
03:23:02,440 --> 03:23:05,000
Speaker 3: moves in a bid to win the president's. Favor In,

3908
03:23:05,080 --> 03:23:07,640
Speaker 3: March paxton promised to drop out of the race if

3909
03:23:07,680 --> 03:23:11,360
Speaker 3: The Republican senate tailed the filibuster to pass the voter

3910
03:23:11,480 --> 03:23:15,320
Speaker 3: restriction bill dubbed The Save America. Act at the, time

3911
03:23:15,400 --> 03:23:18,800
Speaker 3: the bill Was trump's top, priority and this gambit By

3912
03:23:18,879 --> 03:23:22,039
Speaker 3: paxton seemed to, work as later that month he was

3913
03:23:22,080 --> 03:23:25,080
Speaker 3: seen meeting With trump at Mar A, lago and then

3914
03:23:25,120 --> 03:23:29,640
Speaker 3: this Past, Tuesday trump Endorsed paxton Via truth On truth social.

3915
03:23:29,760 --> 03:23:33,120
Speaker 3: Quote he is a winner in all. Caps ken is

3916
03:23:33,120 --> 03:23:36,640
Speaker 3: a strong supporter of terminating the filibuster in all caps

3917
03:23:37,160 --> 03:23:41,320
Speaker 3: and very, importantly The Save America. Act John cornyn is

3918
03:23:41,360 --> 03:23:44,080
Speaker 3: a good man AND i worked well with, him but

3919
03:23:44,200 --> 03:23:46,960
Speaker 3: he was not supportive of me when times were tough.

3920
03:23:47,400 --> 03:23:51,720
Speaker 3: Unquote this endorsement seemed to Catch Senate republicans off, guard

3921
03:23:52,240 --> 03:23:54,680
Speaker 3: some of whom now worry the seat may be in.

3922
03:23:54,760 --> 03:23:59,320
Speaker 3: Jeopardy Republican Majority Leader John thune is still Backing Senator.

3923
03:23:59,400 --> 03:24:01,480
Speaker 4: Cornyn what's going on that?

3924
03:24:01,560 --> 03:24:22,360
Speaker 8: Break, yeah.

3925
03:24:13,920 --> 03:24:15,840
Speaker 4: That was a lovely. Song or we're about to hate a.

3926
03:24:15,879 --> 03:24:18,200
Speaker 4: Song let's say song, stated we're about to hear the.

3927
03:24:18,200 --> 03:24:19,600
Speaker 4: Song i'm about to hate a. Song, WELL i am

3928
03:24:19,640 --> 03:24:20,360
Speaker 4: excited about.

3929
03:24:20,360 --> 03:24:26,960
Speaker 2: That that must mean it's time to learn about. Tariffs

3930
03:24:27,800 --> 03:24:30,720
Speaker 2: rocky Jazz, bob rocky jazz.

3931
03:24:30,840 --> 03:24:33,080
Speaker 5: Bo sorry, lack.

3932
03:24:35,280 --> 03:24:38,240
Speaker 1: Rocky jazz bo rocky Jazz.

3933
03:24:38,320 --> 03:24:44,039
Speaker 7: Bob by, god there's tariff news. Again so let's run

3934
03:24:44,080 --> 03:24:48,160
Speaker 7: through a few pieces of tariff. News we have now technically,

3935
03:24:48,200 --> 03:24:52,080
Speaker 7: speaking started the terriff refund of. Process people are starting

3936
03:24:52,120 --> 03:24:54,840
Speaker 7: to get their money. Back this is going to be

3937
03:24:54,879 --> 03:24:59,560
Speaker 7: a catastrophe that unfolds over the course of, genuinely who

3938
03:24:59,560 --> 03:25:02,200
Speaker 7: knows how. Long my guess IS i don't think this

3939
03:25:02,280 --> 03:25:06,040
Speaker 7: is done by next. Year we've also seen a series

3940
03:25:06,120 --> 03:25:09,760
Speaker 7: of negotiations from The trump administration with a whole bunch

3941
03:25:09,920 --> 03:25:14,840
Speaker 7: of different. Countries THE us had a summit With china

3942
03:25:14,920 --> 03:25:18,240
Speaker 7: Where trump is ution in ping met and appear to

3943
03:25:18,280 --> 03:25:21,160
Speaker 7: be trying to wind down the trade. War there is

3944
03:25:21,959 --> 03:25:25,720
Speaker 7: an attempt to reduce tariffs on goods that aren't under

3945
03:25:25,720 --> 03:25:28,840
Speaker 7: the sort Of section three oh one national security. Tariffs

3946
03:25:28,840 --> 03:25:32,280
Speaker 7: there's also been some attempt by The chinese government to

3947
03:25:32,480 --> 03:25:35,800
Speaker 7: get THE us to back off of using the national

3948
03:25:35,800 --> 03:25:39,080
Speaker 7: security powers for more. Tariffs the deals on this one

3949
03:25:39,120 --> 03:25:42,600
Speaker 7: are still kind of. Inconclusive we're going to see more

3950
03:25:42,640 --> 03:25:46,600
Speaker 7: as this. Unfolds there's a very good quote THAT i

3951
03:25:46,600 --> 03:25:51,039
Speaker 7: think is interesting FROM Us Trade. Rep Jamison guer where in,

3952
03:25:51,080 --> 03:25:53,520
Speaker 7: writers well this is reported in, writers was On Fox

3953
03:25:53,560 --> 03:25:56,720
Speaker 7: Business news where he, said, quote it's not really a

3954
03:25:56,760 --> 03:25:59,400
Speaker 7: situation where we go and Get china to change the

3955
03:25:59,400 --> 03:26:02,040
Speaker 7: way they, govern the way they manage their. Economy career

3956
03:26:02,080 --> 03:26:04,440
Speaker 7: Told Fox businesses last week this was about three weeks.

3957
03:26:04,440 --> 03:26:07,760
Speaker 7: Ago now that's all baked into their. System BUT i

3958
03:26:07,800 --> 03:26:11,160
Speaker 7: think there is a world where we find out where

3959
03:26:11,200 --> 03:26:14,080
Speaker 7: we can optimize trade Between china and THE us to

3960
03:26:14,160 --> 03:26:19,480
Speaker 7: achieve more. Balance so this is effectively a pure back

3961
03:26:19,520 --> 03:26:23,480
Speaker 7: off of everything they've been saying about like all of

3962
03:26:23,520 --> 03:26:27,000
Speaker 7: the all of The chinese economy inherently having rigged trade

3963
03:26:27,080 --> 03:26:29,400
Speaker 7: because of government, subsidies et, cetera et.

3964
03:26:29,440 --> 03:26:30,480
Speaker 4: Cetera on, it it.

3965
03:26:30,600 --> 03:26:34,119
Speaker 7: Seems like they're kind of trying to wind this, DOWN

3966
03:26:34,280 --> 03:26:37,879
Speaker 7: i think largely because they have with this war In,

3967
03:26:37,920 --> 03:26:40,400
Speaker 7: iran they have dropped a second nuke on the, economy

3968
03:26:40,400 --> 03:26:42,240
Speaker 7: and they want to make sure that the two bombs

3969
03:26:42,240 --> 03:26:44,240
Speaker 7: they've dropped on the on their own feet aren't going

3970
03:26:44,240 --> 03:26:47,440
Speaker 7: off at the same. Time so in that vein we've

3971
03:26:47,480 --> 03:26:53,640
Speaker 7: also seen THE eu has finally gotten together to approve.

3972
03:26:54,720 --> 03:26:58,080
Speaker 7: Ish it's a little, complicated a provisional deal with the

3973
03:26:58,120 --> 03:27:02,200
Speaker 7: administration that the are also still a little murky. On

3974
03:27:02,560 --> 03:27:05,080
Speaker 7: but the short version seems to be THE us imposes

3975
03:27:05,120 --> 03:27:08,960
Speaker 7: of fifteen percent tariff On european, goods while once again Per,

3976
03:27:09,000 --> 03:27:12,360
Speaker 7: reuters THE eu would quote remove import duties ON us

3977
03:27:12,440 --> 03:27:16,840
Speaker 7: industrial goods and grant preferential access TO us farm and sea.

3978
03:27:16,879 --> 03:27:20,039
Speaker 7: Produce we still don't know exactly what that's going to look,

3979
03:27:20,160 --> 03:27:24,320
Speaker 7: like but those are the preliminary details after these negotiations

3980
03:27:24,320 --> 03:27:27,320
Speaker 7: were thrown into chaos When trump was trying to Invade. Greenland,

3981
03:27:28,160 --> 03:27:31,200
Speaker 7: yeah we'll know more about what these deals look like

3982
03:27:31,240 --> 03:27:33,959
Speaker 7: in the weeks to. Come, now the other piece of

3983
03:27:34,040 --> 03:27:37,240
Speaker 7: news we should talk about here is that On, friday

3984
03:27:37,360 --> 03:27:40,080
Speaker 7: on The friday that you're presumably listening to this On,

3985
03:27:40,600 --> 03:27:42,959
Speaker 7: Heaven walsh is going to be sworn in as the

3986
03:27:43,000 --> 03:27:47,119
Speaker 7: new chairman of The Federal. Reserve this has come as

3987
03:27:47,320 --> 03:27:50,040
Speaker 7: part of a deal where in order to getsh out of,

3988
03:27:50,120 --> 03:27:54,400
Speaker 7: committee The Justice department dropped their investigation into Former Federal

3989
03:27:54,440 --> 03:27:58,400
Speaker 7: Reserve Chairman Jerome. Powell it is worth, noting, though That

3990
03:27:58,560 --> 03:28:03,000
Speaker 7: Jerome Powell Rum powell has obviously stepped down as the

3991
03:28:03,280 --> 03:28:07,240
Speaker 7: chairman of The Federal. Reserve, coward that's, ALL i got.

3992
03:28:07,240 --> 03:28:13,400
Speaker 7: Nothing my brain is too cooked On Federal reserve to

3993
03:28:13,440 --> 03:28:18,600
Speaker 7: be able to react. Properly but Coma Jerome powell is

3994
03:28:18,640 --> 03:28:22,199
Speaker 7: not stepping down from The board Of, governors which he's still.

3995
03:28:22,200 --> 03:28:23,880
Speaker 7: ON i think he's still also on The Open Market,

3996
03:28:23,920 --> 03:28:29,199
Speaker 7: Committee So worsh has his work cut out for. Him

3997
03:28:29,879 --> 03:28:32,680
Speaker 7: we should. Mention so who Is Kevin. Walsh we've talked

3998
03:28:32,720 --> 03:28:35,840
Speaker 7: about this a little bit. Before he, IS i would,

3999
03:28:35,920 --> 03:28:40,920
Speaker 7: say more stable and more hinged than the previous Candidate

4000
03:28:40,959 --> 03:28:44,920
Speaker 7: trump has been talking. About he has experience in The Federal. Reserve,

4001
03:28:44,959 --> 03:28:48,520
Speaker 7: however he's also very very close to a lot of

4002
03:28:48,560 --> 03:28:52,200
Speaker 7: the tech, right particularly feel and end. Reason that is

4003
03:28:52,240 --> 03:28:55,600
Speaker 7: absolutely a cause for alarm that these sort of tech

4004
03:28:55,640 --> 03:28:59,560
Speaker 7: fascists have gotten their guy as the head of The Federal. Reserve,

4005
03:29:00,640 --> 03:29:06,560
Speaker 7: however he has effectively inherited a, Grenade so how are

4006
03:29:06,560 --> 03:29:08,920
Speaker 7: things going to be going for him when he when

4007
03:29:08,920 --> 03:29:11,840
Speaker 7: he takes office in about two. Days as we're recording

4008
03:29:11,840 --> 03:29:14,280
Speaker 7: for this not. Great the yield on the thirty year

4009
03:29:14,320 --> 03:29:17,520
Speaker 7: teen notte is that five point four, percent which is

4010
03:29:17,560 --> 03:29:20,480
Speaker 7: the highest it's been since two thousand and. Seven for

4011
03:29:20,520 --> 03:29:24,039
Speaker 7: people unaware of what high teennote yield, means it means

4012
03:29:24,280 --> 03:29:28,720
Speaker 7: things bad for THE us, economy and investors are spooked

4013
03:29:28,800 --> 03:29:32,920
Speaker 7: and kind of. Panicking this seems to mostly be investors

4014
03:29:33,480 --> 03:29:36,400
Speaker 7: finally starting to price in weight hold on this war

4015
03:29:36,440 --> 03:29:40,039
Speaker 7: In iran is not simply going to, end so he

4016
03:29:40,200 --> 03:29:43,880
Speaker 7: is inheriting a situation that is going to be a

4017
03:29:44,040 --> 03:29:47,640
Speaker 7: mess because these high interest rates means that there's going

4018
03:29:47,680 --> 03:29:50,160
Speaker 7: to have to be sort of fed interest rate hikes

4019
03:29:50,160 --> 03:29:52,920
Speaker 7: in order to curve. Inflation, However trump wants exactly the

4020
03:29:52,920 --> 03:29:56,560
Speaker 7: opposite of, that So larsh is immediately caught between a

4021
03:29:56,640 --> 03:29:58,320
Speaker 7: rock and a hard. Place the rest of The Federal

4022
03:29:58,400 --> 03:30:01,040
Speaker 7: Reserve board does not want to slash int rates right,

4023
03:30:01,080 --> 03:30:05,600
Speaker 7: now And Jerome, powell who hates, him is still on

4024
03:30:05,640 --> 03:30:08,720
Speaker 7: the board and is still attempting to manage a kind

4025
03:30:08,720 --> 03:30:14,360
Speaker 7: of rear flank resistance To trump's control over THE. Fed

4026
03:30:14,480 --> 03:30:18,040
Speaker 7: so who, knows there's going to be some pretty dramatic

4027
03:30:18,080 --> 03:30:22,680
Speaker 7: clashes my guess fairly soon between some combination Of trump

4028
03:30:22,879 --> 03:30:25,560
Speaker 7: wash and the rest of The Federal Reserve. Board and

4029
03:30:25,720 --> 03:30:30,320
Speaker 7: we will keep you. Informed nice speaking of money and,

4030
03:30:31,000 --> 03:30:35,840
Speaker 7: taxes Giving trump allies control of massive pools of, money.

4031
03:30:36,280 --> 03:30:39,440
Speaker 2: And that and that of our tax, money thank.

4032
03:30:39,520 --> 03:30:43,000
Speaker 3: You On, Monday President trump dropped his ten billion dollar

4033
03:30:43,080 --> 03:30:46,880
Speaker 3: lawsuit against THE irs after he negotiated With trump administration

4034
03:30:47,280 --> 03:30:51,199
Speaker 3: man to create a one point eight billion dollar fund

4035
03:30:51,280 --> 03:30:54,400
Speaker 3: to compensate victims of political quote unquote.

4036
03:30:54,440 --> 03:30:55,240
Speaker 5: Weaponization.

4037
03:30:56,040 --> 03:31:01,400
Speaker 3: Yeah the Lawsuit trump levied Against trump's government alleged the

4038
03:31:01,440 --> 03:31:04,440
Speaker 3: i R s failed to prevent a contractor from leaking

4039
03:31:04,560 --> 03:31:08,040
Speaker 3: his tax returns in twenty, nineteen When trump was also.

4040
03:31:08,160 --> 03:31:12,280
Speaker 3: President part of the. Settlement this is, wild, RIGHT i

4041
03:31:12,640 --> 03:31:14,520
Speaker 3: have to think this is this is. Wild you know the,

4042
03:31:14,600 --> 03:31:16,320
Speaker 3: headline it's Very.

4043
03:31:16,720 --> 03:31:22,119
Speaker 2: Trump trump wins lawsuits Against trump. Government, yeah Against trump's.

4044
03:31:22,120 --> 03:31:25,240
Speaker 5: Cires, yeah you, know technically didn't win the. Lawsuit it was.

4045
03:31:25,360 --> 03:31:29,160
Speaker 3: Settled and part of the settlement is this one point

4046
03:31:29,200 --> 03:31:31,240
Speaker 3: eight billion dollar Fund.

4047
03:31:31,680 --> 03:31:38,839
Speaker 2: Garrison one point seven. Seven, yes, technically come, ON yeh

4048
03:31:40,600 --> 03:31:42,840
Speaker 2: was rounding up that's, right, baby this.

4049
03:31:42,920 --> 03:31:46,360
Speaker 4: World, yeah in this, Case, garrison he's unacceptable to round

4050
03:31:46,440 --> 03:31:50,560
Speaker 4: up because they had something they were going for, there

4051
03:31:50,320 --> 03:31:52,879
Speaker 4: they were, cooking they.

4052
03:31:52,959 --> 03:31:55,080
Speaker 3: Found this fund is for people who believe they are

4053
03:31:55,160 --> 03:31:59,400
Speaker 3: victims of political oppianization by THE doj acting A.

4054
03:31:59,480 --> 03:32:00,440
Speaker 4: G tuddland.

4055
03:32:00,520 --> 03:32:03,920
Speaker 3: Quote it is this department's intention to make right the

4056
03:32:03,959 --> 03:32:07,920
Speaker 3: wrongs that were previously done while ensuring this never happens.

4057
03:32:07,959 --> 03:32:08,240
Speaker 7: Again.

4058
03:32:08,840 --> 03:32:15,040
Speaker 3: Quote blanche himself will appoint a five member committee to

4059
03:32:15,120 --> 03:32:19,959
Speaker 3: evaluate weaponization claims submitted by the. Public so this is

4060
03:32:19,959 --> 03:32:22,680
Speaker 3: basically a scheme to Usurp congress's power of the purse

4061
03:32:23,080 --> 03:32:25,440
Speaker 3: by literally weaponizing the judicial.

4062
03:32:25,480 --> 03:32:28,959
Speaker 5: Process but this story actually gets. Crazier oh.

4063
03:32:29,040 --> 03:32:33,480
Speaker 3: Yeah another part Of trump's settlement Against trump is that

4064
03:32:33,560 --> 03:32:37,800
Speaker 3: THE doj has pledged That trump and his two eldest

4065
03:32:37,800 --> 03:32:41,960
Speaker 3: sons are to be forever exempt from tax audits by

4066
03:32:42,000 --> 03:32:50,400
Speaker 3: the irma quote The United states releases waives acquits and

4067
03:32:50,600 --> 03:32:55,080
Speaker 3: forever discharges each of the plaintiffs from and is hereby

4068
03:32:55,440 --> 03:33:00,200
Speaker 3: forever barred and precluded from prosecuting or pursuing any and

4069
03:33:00,280 --> 03:33:01,120
Speaker 3: all claims.

4070
03:33:01,320 --> 03:33:02,800
Speaker 4: Unquote Incredible.

4071
03:33:03,080 --> 03:33:06,880
Speaker 3: NOW A dj spookesperson later Told The Financial times that

4072
03:33:06,920 --> 03:33:11,800
Speaker 3: this exemption only applies to existing. Audits but that's not

4073
03:33:11,879 --> 03:33:14,119
Speaker 3: really what the document, says and that's not What trump

4074
03:33:14,120 --> 03:33:17,240
Speaker 3: administration is saying outside of this one statement from A dj.

4075
03:33:17,320 --> 03:33:21,200
Speaker 5: Spokesperson so who Knows Julius.

4076
03:33:20,680 --> 03:33:23,400
Speaker 7: Caesar didn't do this? Shit like what are we doing?

4077
03:33:23,480 --> 03:33:28,200
Speaker 2: Here, yeah, yeah it's it's. Again the standard for a

4078
03:33:28,280 --> 03:33:30,840
Speaker 2: long time previously was that like The president AND vp

4079
03:33:31,040 --> 03:33:34,440
Speaker 2: were audited like, yearly because it's just like what you,

4080
03:33:34,480 --> 03:33:38,400
Speaker 2: do like in a, democracy just because you it should

4081
03:33:38,400 --> 03:33:40,520
Speaker 2: be built into the system that you don't trust that

4082
03:33:40,560 --> 03:33:44,440
Speaker 2: the president isn't. Corrupt that's a bad. Idea it's speaking of.

4083
03:33:44,520 --> 03:33:49,440
Speaker 3: Corruption the whole idea of settling a lawsuit yourself.

4084
03:33:49,760 --> 03:33:53,679
Speaker 4: Yourself it's, yeah using everyone's.

4085
03:33:53,760 --> 03:33:56,680
Speaker 2: MONEY i, WOULD i would sue myself a. Lot i'm

4086
03:33:56,680 --> 03:34:00,600
Speaker 2: gonna be, Honest, Garrison i'm gonna be. HONEST i don't

4087
03:34:00,879 --> 03:34:04,280
Speaker 2: like what THE i didn't know he could do.

4088
03:34:04,360 --> 03:34:06,080
Speaker 8: THAT i just.

4089
03:34:09,920 --> 03:34:12,480
Speaker 7: This has somehow managed to turn me into why they

4090
03:34:12,520 --> 03:34:16,360
Speaker 7: Made Jimmy carter give up this peanut farm? Loob like, yes, no.

4091
03:34:16,400 --> 03:34:20,720
Speaker 4: That was literally WHAT i was looking Like Bill, clinton

4092
03:34:21,360 --> 03:34:24,400
Speaker 4: not the most exactly, anaogous but Like Bill clinton used

4093
03:34:24,400 --> 03:34:27,280
Speaker 4: to cross the street to use a different phone to

4094
03:34:27,400 --> 03:34:30,560
Speaker 4: avoid transgressing the hatch At, yeah and now we're here.

4095
03:34:30,959 --> 03:34:31,519
Speaker 7: Observed.

4096
03:34:31,600 --> 03:34:35,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah i'm not A Bill clinton, fan but, yeah come.

4097
03:34:35,440 --> 03:34:38,959
Speaker 2: On but just just thinking about the difference in severity

4098
03:34:39,200 --> 03:34:43,320
Speaker 2: between How Monica, gate which is what it was literally

4099
03:34:43,400 --> 03:34:46,680
Speaker 2: called often at the, time was treated and how the

4100
03:34:46,720 --> 03:34:49,400
Speaker 2: president creating a one point seven seven six billion dollar

4101
03:34:49,480 --> 03:34:52,279
Speaker 2: slush fund for people who tried to do an insurrection

4102
03:34:52,560 --> 03:34:54,000
Speaker 2: is being treated like it's it's.

4103
03:34:54,000 --> 03:34:57,080
Speaker 3: Insane, yeah, Right and that's that's the other thing we should. Mentioned,

4104
03:34:57,120 --> 03:34:58,920
Speaker 3: right this is going to be mostly used by people

4105
03:34:58,920 --> 03:35:01,480
Speaker 3: who were prosecuted for their involvement in The january sixth.

4106
03:35:01,560 --> 03:35:04,120
Speaker 3: Insurrection these funds are not going to be granted to

4107
03:35:04,200 --> 03:35:07,720
Speaker 3: like left wing activists who are being prosecuted By trump's

4108
03:35:07,760 --> 03:35:09,760
Speaker 3: doj for a political targeted like.

4109
03:35:09,879 --> 03:35:13,280
Speaker 2: Come there might be some lawsuits around, THAT i, mean we'll.

4110
03:35:13,280 --> 03:35:16,400
Speaker 2: See Senator Ron wyden Of oregon has said That democrats

4111
03:35:16,400 --> 03:35:18,520
Speaker 2: are going to fight every element of the self dealing.

4112
03:35:18,560 --> 03:35:21,360
Speaker 2: Measure not only is this another heinously corrept act by

4113
03:35:21,360 --> 03:35:23,760
Speaker 2: the most corrupt administration in, history it's clearly a violation

4114
03:35:23,800 --> 03:35:26,400
Speaker 2: of the law that prohibits interference by executive branch officials

4115
03:35:26,400 --> 03:35:30,120
Speaker 2: AND irs. Audits so we'll see if any of that is.

4116
03:35:30,160 --> 03:35:32,800
Speaker 2: Successful good. Luck i'm not against, tryan but it's not

4117
03:35:32,840 --> 03:35:33,360
Speaker 2: my odds on.

4118
03:35:33,440 --> 03:35:33,600
Speaker 9: Bet.

4119
03:35:33,760 --> 03:35:37,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah not to demean the. Effort i'm just trying

4120
03:35:37,920 --> 03:35:38,760
Speaker 2: to be reasonable.

4121
03:35:38,800 --> 03:35:40,119
Speaker 4: Here, yeah we can.

4122
03:35:40,200 --> 03:35:43,960
Speaker 3: Dream back in twenty, nineteen WHEN i was in film,

4123
03:35:44,080 --> 03:35:47,240
Speaker 3: SCHOOL i was interviewing a federal.

4124
03:35:47,000 --> 03:35:49,000
Speaker 2: Judge wow humblebrag high for.

4125
03:35:49,040 --> 03:35:53,920
Speaker 3: Some like documentary, project and she talked about the rices

4126
03:35:53,959 --> 03:35:56,240
Speaker 3: in twenty, nineteen So trump. One she talked about how

4127
03:35:56,280 --> 03:35:58,879
Speaker 3: she thinks that it's really going to be the judicial

4128
03:35:58,920 --> 03:36:02,200
Speaker 3: system that saves us from. Authoritarianism, this this is this

4129
03:36:02,240 --> 03:36:03,959
Speaker 3: is our this is the last line of defense we

4130
03:36:04,000 --> 03:36:05,080
Speaker 3: have against a.

4131
03:36:05,160 --> 03:36:10,760
Speaker 7: Dictator judge things their job, good like like to be.

4132
03:36:10,840 --> 03:36:13,200
Speaker 2: FAIR i knew a lot of journalists who are like the,

4133
03:36:13,280 --> 03:36:18,160
Speaker 2: press free press that back.

4134
03:36:18,000 --> 03:36:20,680
Speaker 7: In, Reality like The Supreme court just like repealed The

4135
03:36:20,760 --> 03:36:22,640
Speaker 7: Voting Rights, Act and.

4136
03:36:22,720 --> 03:36:26,560
Speaker 3: That's What i'm that's What i'm getting. To On, friday

4137
03:36:26,600 --> 03:36:29,840
Speaker 3: THE Us Supreme court Rejected democrats' emergency appeal in The

4138
03:36:29,920 --> 03:36:33,760
Speaker 3: virginia redistricting, case leaving the decision by The States Room

4139
03:36:33,800 --> 03:36:36,720
Speaker 3: court to block the new voter Approved house map in.

4140
03:36:36,840 --> 03:36:40,400
Speaker 3: Place THE Us Supreme court offered no explanation in their

4141
03:36:40,480 --> 03:36:43,640
Speaker 3: brief one sentence unsigned memo.

4142
03:36:43,879 --> 03:36:46,360
Speaker 7: That that that might be the shortest shadow dock, yet

4143
03:36:46,400 --> 03:36:49,680
Speaker 7: which is insulting because they were already like one. Paragraph.

4144
03:36:50,160 --> 03:36:53,640
Speaker 3: Yeah The Virginia's Room court ruled the new map violated

4145
03:36:53,680 --> 03:36:58,440
Speaker 3: the state constitution via procedural error during the referendum. PROCESS

4146
03:36:59,760 --> 03:37:02,680
Speaker 3: I i often think about the CONVERSATION i had with

4147
03:37:02,720 --> 03:37:05,080
Speaker 3: this with this federal judge in twenty. Nineteen as all

4148
03:37:05,080 --> 03:37:07,960
Speaker 3: this stuff's been, Happening i'm, LIKE i would really love

4149
03:37:08,000 --> 03:37:09,879
Speaker 3: to talk with her. AGAIN i should maybe try to

4150
03:37:09,879 --> 03:37:13,959
Speaker 3: track her down and the like ask because, yeah oh, boy.

4151
03:37:14,560 --> 03:37:18,200
Speaker 4: Yeah how do you conceive of yourself, now like your

4152
03:37:18,280 --> 03:37:18,760
Speaker 4: role in this?

4153
03:37:19,000 --> 03:37:21,880
Speaker 7: Yep how do you function ideologically as a person whose

4154
03:37:21,959 --> 03:37:23,680
Speaker 7: job it is to do the? Law when The Supreme

4155
03:37:23,720 --> 03:37:26,800
Speaker 7: court has said That article, one section four of The,

4156
03:37:26,840 --> 03:37:29,800
Speaker 7: constitution when it says That congress can pass laws or regulate,

4157
03:37:29,800 --> 03:37:33,480
Speaker 7: elections does not actually apply To congress passing a law

4158
03:37:33,480 --> 03:37:35,720
Speaker 7: to regulate. Elections like what do you do after that

4159
03:37:35,760 --> 03:37:37,120
Speaker 7: in order in order to make it so that black

4160
03:37:37,120 --> 03:37:37,920
Speaker 7: people don't get a? Vote?

4161
03:37:37,959 --> 03:37:39,440
Speaker 4: Again, like where do you put your idea on the

4162
03:37:39,480 --> 03:37:40,560
Speaker 4: tea now it's all.

4163
03:37:40,760 --> 03:37:44,160
Speaker 7: Fake. Yeah, God i'm extremely angry about.

4164
03:37:44,200 --> 03:37:49,000
Speaker 3: THIS i mean, yeah around that time was when the

4165
03:37:49,160 --> 03:37:52,720
Speaker 3: partisan jerrymandering was like explicitly allowed by The Supreme. COURT

4166
03:37:52,760 --> 03:37:54,480
Speaker 3: i mean you, can, yeah we can track a lot

4167
03:37:54,520 --> 03:37:57,320
Speaker 3: of a lot of the stuff to that ruling as. Well,

4168
03:37:57,440 --> 03:37:59,920
Speaker 3: right and this WAS i think that that was a

4169
03:38:00,040 --> 03:38:02,440
Speaker 3: round twenty, nineteen between twenty eighteen twenty twenty.

4170
03:38:02,440 --> 03:38:06,280
Speaker 4: One shall we move on to the war which is

4171
03:38:06,320 --> 03:38:11,680
Speaker 4: not a war In? IRAN i believe we. Shall, Okay,

4172
03:38:11,800 --> 03:38:15,000
Speaker 4: WELL i will start at the start of this. Week just,

4173
03:38:15,120 --> 03:38:16,880
Speaker 4: GONE i guess where the president has said a deadline

4174
03:38:16,920 --> 03:38:19,640
Speaker 4: for strikes about which we found out through a series

4175
03:38:19,879 --> 03:38:24,160
Speaker 4: OF ai generated, images and then back down from it

4176
03:38:24,560 --> 03:38:27,640
Speaker 4: at the urging avalids in the region as talks. Continue,

4177
03:38:28,240 --> 03:38:32,680
Speaker 4: Meanwhile iran has not stopped using drones and missiles to

4178
03:38:33,040 --> 03:38:37,600
Speaker 4: Attack kurdish group's Largely Iranian kurdish groups in Southern kurdistan

4179
03:38:38,040 --> 03:38:42,840
Speaker 4: indigenously produced. Missiles, yes we're going to talk about indigenous production.

4180
03:38:43,360 --> 03:38:47,320
Speaker 2: Later, yes, okay, Okay art AND i see what you're.

4181
03:38:47,360 --> 03:38:52,160
Speaker 4: Doing trump On monday said he would hold off the

4182
03:38:52,240 --> 03:38:57,480
Speaker 4: quote unquote scheduled. Attacks, Meanwhile iran has opened AN x

4183
03:38:57,520 --> 03:39:00,920
Speaker 4: account using x dot, com the everything website for The

4184
03:39:00,959 --> 03:39:05,840
Speaker 4: Persian Gulf Straight, authority a direct contravention of my desire

4185
03:39:05,879 --> 03:39:07,320
Speaker 4: to not make this Segment twitter.

4186
03:39:07,400 --> 03:39:10,280
Speaker 5: Review this is the worst episode we've done in a.

4187
03:39:10,320 --> 03:39:11,080
Speaker 5: While it.

4188
03:39:11,160 --> 03:39:14,200
Speaker 2: Is it's like this is, yeah you, know you.

4189
03:39:14,160 --> 03:39:16,879
Speaker 4: Know twenty eight days later when it opens and all

4190
03:39:16,959 --> 03:39:19,760
Speaker 4: this bad shit is just like clicking. Through, yeah that's

4191
03:39:19,840 --> 03:39:20,879
Speaker 4: every week, now.

4192
03:39:21,040 --> 03:39:23,160
Speaker 3: Every news sentence one of us, SAYS i just my

4193
03:39:23,480 --> 03:39:25,840
Speaker 3: headache grows a, little a little, bit a little bit bit.

4194
03:39:26,080 --> 03:39:28,440
Speaker 7: Like longing for the halcyon. Days we thought that twenty

4195
03:39:28,480 --> 03:39:29,440
Speaker 7: twenty was the worst year.

4196
03:39:29,480 --> 03:39:33,840
Speaker 2: Ever people are nostalgia for twenty. Twenty now folks are

4197
03:39:33,840 --> 03:39:35,760
Speaker 2: getting hopeful about the hauntavirus out.

4198
03:39:35,760 --> 03:39:37,600
Speaker 7: There oh please Please.

4199
03:39:37,640 --> 03:39:42,240
Speaker 4: God so, yes it RUNS x account for THE, pgs

4200
03:39:42,400 --> 03:39:46,160
Speaker 4: A Persian Golf straight. Authority it's claiming that it has

4201
03:39:46,240 --> 03:39:51,600
Speaker 4: established a controlled maritime zone in the straight hashtag strait

4202
03:39:51,640 --> 03:39:55,560
Speaker 4: Of horn moos hashtag horn moves undercourse. Straight if you

4203
03:39:55,560 --> 03:39:57,360
Speaker 4: want to get in on that, conversation.

4204
03:39:57,320 --> 03:40:00,080
Speaker 2: Why would you hashtag it that this isn't A you are.

4205
03:40:00,200 --> 03:40:03,480
Speaker 4: The Islamic republic Of iran and what are you? Doing

4206
03:40:03,640 --> 03:40:09,520
Speaker 4: it's creating a hashtag Because donald trumpet has bombed you

4207
03:40:09,560 --> 03:40:13,440
Speaker 4: for three months without declaring. War yet, like what a,

4208
03:40:13,520 --> 03:40:18,480
Speaker 4: World what a time to be. Alive, MEANWHILE cbs see

4209
03:40:18,520 --> 03:40:24,360
Speaker 4: again every fucking. Sentence, man only the, only the, best Oh.

4210
03:40:24,440 --> 03:40:28,200
Speaker 4: Man every TIME i see a full, STOP i want

4211
03:40:28,320 --> 03:40:31,600
Speaker 4: to just go and walk into the. Ocean IF i,

4212
03:40:31,680 --> 03:40:34,240
Speaker 4: DID i might eventually float to the straight upform, moves

4213
03:40:34,240 --> 03:40:37,720
Speaker 4: WHERE cbs is reporting that THE us has identified ten naval.

4214
03:40:37,840 --> 03:40:43,760
Speaker 4: MINDS i spoke to my mind guy that this is

4215
03:40:43,760 --> 03:40:44,359
Speaker 4: the LIFE.

4216
03:40:44,160 --> 03:40:46,480
Speaker 2: I, lead is mine guide.

4217
03:40:48,720 --> 03:40:52,840
Speaker 4: Mine, Guy it's going to be my New you.

4218
03:40:52,800 --> 03:40:55,800
Speaker 2: Could d m the old iatola On. Twitter it's possible

4219
03:40:55,879 --> 03:40:58,040
Speaker 2: you can get the new. One there's no way to.

4220
03:40:58,040 --> 03:40:59,720
Speaker 2: Know although the old one never got back to me

4221
03:40:59,720 --> 03:41:02,119
Speaker 2: about whether or not he liked, anime so that remains

4222
03:41:02,120 --> 03:41:02,760
Speaker 2: an unanswered.

4223
03:41:02,840 --> 03:41:05,680
Speaker 4: Question he would post About american. Sports it's very. Funny

4224
03:41:06,800 --> 03:41:11,279
Speaker 4: these are The maham three and seven, minds so it's seven.

4225
03:41:11,400 --> 03:41:15,480
Speaker 4: Minds here are the particularly advanced. Ones they apparently can

4226
03:41:15,560 --> 03:41:19,200
Speaker 4: absorb some, sonar making them very hard to, detect and

4227
03:41:19,280 --> 03:41:22,520
Speaker 4: they can go off when you're searching for. Them neither

4228
03:41:22,560 --> 03:41:24,920
Speaker 4: of these are contact, mines, Right The muhamma, three's for,

4229
03:41:24,959 --> 03:41:27,360
Speaker 4: example they're midwater, floating whereas sevens are going to be

4230
03:41:27,400 --> 03:41:30,000
Speaker 4: on the. Bottom they can go off using a number

4231
03:41:30,000 --> 03:41:32,400
Speaker 4: of different, sensors like The muhama threes could go off

4232
03:41:32,640 --> 03:41:35,600
Speaker 4: using magnetic or acoustic sensors when the ship is, nearby

4233
03:41:36,200 --> 03:41:38,560
Speaker 4: so you don't even have to directly bump, them which is.

4234
03:41:38,640 --> 03:41:42,600
Speaker 4: Great if they have found, ten one assumes that there

4235
03:41:42,600 --> 03:41:46,680
Speaker 4: are actually tons more than. That we are now waiting

4236
03:41:46,760 --> 03:41:48,280
Speaker 4: until something bumps into.

4237
03:41:48,360 --> 03:41:48,560
Speaker 7: One.

4238
03:41:48,720 --> 03:41:51,440
Speaker 4: Great for a long, time there was Like schrodinger's minds

4239
03:41:51,560 --> 03:41:54,600
Speaker 4: right that we now the minds are, there that the

4240
03:41:54,680 --> 03:41:55,080
Speaker 4: mines are.

4241
03:41:55,080 --> 03:41:56,440
Speaker 7: Real so it's.

4242
03:41:56,640 --> 03:41:59,160
Speaker 2: Cat the cat is out of the. Box, No, No,

4243
03:41:59,280 --> 03:42:01,920
Speaker 2: JAMES i. AM i seem to recall several weeks, Ago

4244
03:42:02,040 --> 03:42:05,720
Speaker 2: Donald trump Said iran's offensive capability has been completely. Degraded that's.

4245
03:42:05,760 --> 03:42:08,960
Speaker 4: Correct, yeah no, navy no. Boats so they must have

4246
03:42:09,040 --> 03:42:11,760
Speaker 4: got the very quickly in the initial hours after the strikes,

4247
03:42:11,800 --> 03:42:13,400
Speaker 4: BEGAN i, guess and it just took this long to.

4248
03:42:13,440 --> 03:42:17,800
Speaker 2: Find, well sometimes sea turtles lay particularly explosive, eggs But

4249
03:42:18,120 --> 03:42:21,039
Speaker 2: Donald trump can't be expected to have anticipated that.

4250
03:42:21,120 --> 03:42:24,160
Speaker 7: Well and we've already denied the suicide dolphin, program so

4251
03:42:24,160 --> 03:42:25,039
Speaker 7: we couldn't stop the sea.

4252
03:42:25,080 --> 03:42:28,360
Speaker 4: Turtles, yeah well these are not suicide, dolphins, right what

4253
03:42:28,400 --> 03:42:30,080
Speaker 4: if these dolphins intended to live another?

4254
03:42:30,160 --> 03:42:31,320
Speaker 2: Day homicide dog?

4255
03:42:31,360 --> 03:42:36,840
Speaker 4: Exactly, yeah, yeah that big band, name or like the

4256
03:42:36,920 --> 03:42:39,439
Speaker 4: dolphin from Sea. Quest reach out to me if homicide

4257
03:42:39,440 --> 03:42:40,959
Speaker 4: dolphins is the name of your, band.

4258
03:42:40,840 --> 03:42:42,440
Speaker 2: Reach out to me if you Like. SeaQuest.

4259
03:42:42,560 --> 03:42:47,120
Speaker 4: Yeah like a lot of any military, technology these are entirely, copied,

4260
03:42:47,320 --> 03:42:51,320
Speaker 4: RIGHT i think as A, Norwegian swedish minds And french.

4261
03:42:51,480 --> 03:42:54,360
Speaker 4: Minds but That's iran does this a, lot, Right it

4262
03:42:54,440 --> 03:42:56,199
Speaker 4: sort of plagiarizes other people's military.

4263
03:42:56,240 --> 03:42:58,920
Speaker 2: Technology, yeah like a smart person.

4264
03:42:59,040 --> 03:42:59,280
Speaker 8: Does.

4265
03:42:59,480 --> 03:43:03,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah it's like THE us, did like everyone else

4266
03:43:03,480 --> 03:43:06,400
Speaker 2: if they see someone else make a good. Weapon that's

4267
03:43:06,440 --> 03:43:07,000
Speaker 2: how war.

4268
03:43:07,080 --> 03:43:09,160
Speaker 4: Works, yeah and The iranians do it in a more

4269
03:43:09,200 --> 03:43:11,520
Speaker 4: direct way than. MOST i will, say they didn't even.

4270
03:43:11,520 --> 03:43:13,320
Speaker 4: Pretend but why if the world has cut you off

4271
03:43:13,320 --> 03:43:14,720
Speaker 4: with sanctus, anyway what did you go to?

4272
03:43:14,800 --> 03:43:15,360
Speaker 1: Lose you?

4273
03:43:15,400 --> 03:43:21,200
Speaker 2: Going this isn't like Fucking android copying ship from iPhone's

4274
03:43:21,280 --> 03:43:23,440
Speaker 2: code or. Whatever this is just how war.

4275
03:43:23,520 --> 03:43:25,200
Speaker 4: Works, yeah what are they going to?

4276
03:43:25,240 --> 03:43:25,640
Speaker 1: Do bomb?

4277
03:43:25,640 --> 03:43:25,840
Speaker 8: Them?

4278
03:43:26,160 --> 03:43:29,039
Speaker 2: Yeah we Never we didn't sue THE ussr for plagiarism

4279
03:43:29,120 --> 03:43:31,680
Speaker 2: when they got a new, like that's not how this.

4280
03:43:31,879 --> 03:43:35,320
Speaker 4: Worse, Yeah i'm sure some Like french guys are mad about. It,

4281
03:43:35,800 --> 03:43:38,640
Speaker 4: yeah they going to. Change let's talk about reporting FROM

4282
03:43:38,800 --> 03:43:43,120
Speaker 4: nyt today That israel intended to install Mood off And

4283
03:43:43,160 --> 03:43:46,920
Speaker 4: Dinner jad as the new leader Of iran and the

4284
03:43:47,040 --> 03:43:49,760
Speaker 4: way that they intended to do, this of, course AND

4285
03:43:49,840 --> 03:43:53,119
Speaker 4: i think this is particularly telling of THE Idf they

4286
03:43:53,200 --> 03:43:53,600
Speaker 4: bombed his.

4287
03:43:53,720 --> 03:43:56,560
Speaker 2: House, yeah that's, all that's the only thing they know

4288
03:43:56,600 --> 03:43:56,959
Speaker 2: how to, Do.

4289
03:43:57,160 --> 03:44:00,320
Speaker 4: James, yeah it's when you only have a ham the

4290
03:44:00,320 --> 03:44:00,800
Speaker 4: world is a.

4291
03:44:00,920 --> 03:44:03,320
Speaker 2: Nail WHEN i read that and made me. Think this

4292
03:44:03,360 --> 03:44:06,320
Speaker 2: great comedian now, Dead Bill hicks had a bit during

4293
03:44:06,360 --> 03:44:09,240
Speaker 2: The Gulf, war The First Gulf war where he was

4294
03:44:09,360 --> 03:44:12,879
Speaker 2: like talking about the amazing guided missiles THE us has

4295
03:44:13,000 --> 03:44:14,960
Speaker 2: that we could like fire down, chimneys and he was,

4296
03:44:14,959 --> 03:44:18,039
Speaker 2: like couldn't we theoretically use that technology to shoot food

4297
03:44:18,200 --> 03:44:19,400
Speaker 2: into the mouths of hungry?

4298
03:44:19,400 --> 03:44:27,720
Speaker 4: PEOPLE i THOUGHT i read that. Story unfortunately they Injured

4299
03:44:27,720 --> 03:44:34,720
Speaker 4: almadida jadh, Again, yeah because it's It's, rael, right and, like,

4300
03:44:34,840 --> 03:44:36,760
Speaker 4: yeah nothing they love to do more than the killer

4301
03:44:36,840 --> 03:44:40,879
Speaker 4: range or A muslim person and so, yeah spectactically they

4302
03:44:40,920 --> 03:44:43,560
Speaker 4: attempted to Install Apmadida jad a guy who wanted to

4303
03:44:43,560 --> 03:44:46,920
Speaker 4: Wipe israel off the map in the power In, iran.

4304
03:44:47,280 --> 03:44:50,320
Speaker 2: This guy was the. Devil if you, remember if you

4305
03:44:50,400 --> 03:44:53,040
Speaker 2: were if you watched the news when he was first

4306
03:44:53,080 --> 03:44:56,080
Speaker 2: president Of, iran this guy was the. Devil so a

4307
03:44:56,160 --> 03:44:57,320
Speaker 2: massive pusher.

4308
03:44:57,000 --> 03:45:01,720
Speaker 4: Of the nuclear. Program, yeah like, yeah, Fascinating.

4309
03:45:01,360 --> 03:45:06,120
Speaker 7: Probably the world's most famous. Hardliner maybe he's just maybe

4310
03:45:06,120 --> 03:45:08,000
Speaker 7: he's the only guy they knew, about.

4311
03:45:07,680 --> 03:45:11,720
Speaker 4: Like, Right like do they have some incredible compliment they.

4312
03:45:12,280 --> 03:45:13,920
Speaker 5: WELL i mean this is part of israel strategy.

4313
03:45:13,959 --> 03:45:16,440
Speaker 3: Though they want aggression to increase so they have justification

4314
03:45:16,520 --> 03:45:18,959
Speaker 3: to take over the region and like crack down like even,

4315
03:45:18,959 --> 03:45:21,039
Speaker 3: Harder like this is that was part of their strategy

4316
03:45:21,040 --> 03:45:21,560
Speaker 3: With hamas for.

4317
03:45:21,680 --> 03:45:24,680
Speaker 4: Years yeah, sure but they already have. Justification they're already

4318
03:45:24,760 --> 03:45:26,640
Speaker 4: killing a bunch of people In, iran like.

4319
03:45:26,720 --> 03:45:30,200
Speaker 3: They can try to rope in even more, countries broken more.

4320
03:45:30,200 --> 03:45:31,560
Speaker 3: People like this is like a scaling.

4321
03:45:31,600 --> 03:45:35,280
Speaker 4: Issue they are the accelerationists of the of the internationals

4322
03:45:35,520 --> 03:45:36,360
Speaker 4: really Genuine.

4323
03:45:36,440 --> 03:45:36,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

4324
03:45:36,600 --> 03:45:39,959
Speaker 4: No we also found out That Israel loki Invaded, iraq

4325
03:45:40,080 --> 03:45:43,640
Speaker 4: setting up two bases in The iraqi desert and shooting

4326
03:45:43,800 --> 03:45:46,640
Speaker 4: At iraqi troops and civilians who came near.

4327
03:45:46,720 --> 03:45:50,800
Speaker 3: Them coy, Guys Israel loki Invaded.

4328
03:45:50,840 --> 03:45:54,280
Speaker 4: Iraq, yeah, yeah that's. Me, YEAH i am here to

4329
03:45:54,360 --> 03:45:57,880
Speaker 4: maintain a youth audience by using the language that they. Understand,

4330
03:45:58,120 --> 03:46:02,039
Speaker 4: yeah that's. Good let's talk about The. Senate On, tuesday

4331
03:46:02,080 --> 03:46:05,080
Speaker 4: The senate advanced to resolution quote who directed The removal

4332
03:46:05,120 --> 03:46:07,520
Speaker 4: of The United States Armed forces from hostilities with or

4333
03:46:07,520 --> 03:46:10,680
Speaker 4: against The Islamic Republica iran that have not been authorized By.

4334
03:46:10,720 --> 03:46:14,520
Speaker 4: Congress this is more of a rebuke than anything with

4335
03:46:14,600 --> 03:46:17,080
Speaker 4: a reasonable chance of actually stopping the, war but it's still.

4336
03:46:17,080 --> 03:46:21,560
Speaker 4: Significant significant Because Bill cassidy crossed party lines after losing

4337
03:46:21,640 --> 03:46:25,280
Speaker 4: his primary, election in Which trump campaigned against. Him only

4338
03:46:25,320 --> 03:46:28,480
Speaker 4: after losing, though yeah, right, yeah after this guy had

4339
03:46:28,520 --> 03:46:32,000
Speaker 4: destroyed your whole, life you suddenly grow a. Backbone that makes.

4340
03:46:32,040 --> 03:46:34,600
Speaker 4: Sense he was joined By Susan conins Of, Main Lisa

4341
03:46:34,640 --> 03:46:38,240
Speaker 4: markowski Of, alaska And Ran paul Of. Kentucky, while of,

4342
03:46:38,360 --> 03:46:41,240
Speaker 4: course do you guys want to guess which festering tird

4343
03:46:41,280 --> 03:46:43,840
Speaker 4: Of democrat senator across the other Way.

4344
03:46:44,000 --> 03:46:46,160
Speaker 7: Fedterman, yes, yeah of.

4345
03:46:46,120 --> 03:46:49,800
Speaker 2: Course when you said, FESTERING i thought of, Man, okay.

4346
03:46:49,680 --> 03:46:54,600
Speaker 4: Okay well we can, YEAH i mean, yeah, yeah, yeah

4347
03:46:55,000 --> 03:46:59,480
Speaker 4: calling him Fester man in the. Chat good. Stuff John

4348
03:46:59,520 --> 03:47:03,640
Speaker 4: cornyn Of, Texas Tommy tubaville Of, alabama And Tom tillis

4349
03:47:03,640 --> 03:47:05,960
Speaker 4: Of North carolina didn't, vote which allowed the vote to.

4350
03:47:06,000 --> 03:47:09,240
Speaker 4: Pass in, practice even if the resolution passed The, HOUSE

4351
03:47:09,360 --> 03:47:11,600
Speaker 4: i guess The president could veto it if you wanted.

4352
03:47:11,680 --> 03:47:16,320
Speaker 4: To it's, interesting, though they've been gradually peeling Off. Republicans

4353
03:47:16,360 --> 03:47:20,000
Speaker 4: Right makowski switched last Week cassidy this. WEEK i don't

4354
03:47:20,080 --> 03:47:23,000
Speaker 4: think the non voting was much about, this as they

4355
03:47:23,040 --> 03:47:25,600
Speaker 4: just didn't vote at all that. Day But, cassidy we

4356
03:47:25,600 --> 03:47:27,920
Speaker 4: can see. Why Right colin To makowski are the once

4357
03:47:28,000 --> 03:47:31,120
Speaker 4: and they talk about like swinging a Lot rampaul is

4358
03:47:31,160 --> 03:47:33,959
Speaker 4: plowing his own lonely furrow as he always. Has but

4359
03:47:34,040 --> 03:47:38,680
Speaker 4: it's interesting that they've gradually peeled these people away from

4360
03:47:38,680 --> 03:47:43,320
Speaker 4: The Republican. Party, meanwhile In, nigeria The United states has

4361
03:47:43,320 --> 03:47:46,720
Speaker 4: carried out a series of strikes Against islamic state. Targets

4362
03:47:46,920 --> 03:47:50,240
Speaker 4: they Killed abubaka Al, manuki someone who went by several other.

4363
03:47:50,320 --> 03:47:52,640
Speaker 4: Names you'll see a lot of other names In. Impressors

4364
03:47:53,120 --> 03:47:57,360
Speaker 4: he definitely was solidifying a power within The West africa.

4365
03:47:57,360 --> 03:48:01,720
Speaker 4: Provinces islamic state and definitely becoming, relevant especially you, know

4366
03:48:01,800 --> 03:48:04,360
Speaker 4: post a territorial caliphate In iraq And.

4367
03:48:04,400 --> 03:48:07,039
Speaker 3: Syria, yeah this is the stuff that the most of

4368
03:48:07,080 --> 03:48:10,240
Speaker 3: that Counter Terrorism trategy document was writing.

4369
03:48:10,280 --> 03:48:14,920
Speaker 4: About, yeah and they have been pursuing This internegeria for some.

4370
03:48:15,000 --> 03:48:17,640
Speaker 4: TIME i wrote Last christmas about them winding up for

4371
03:48:17,720 --> 03:48:21,560
Speaker 4: grown strikes right into the station troops. There trump's statement

4372
03:48:21,720 --> 03:48:25,000
Speaker 4: was always somewhat. Incomprehensible trump said he had been hiding In.

4373
03:48:25,040 --> 03:48:28,280
Speaker 4: Africa that man had obviously lived In africa his entire,

4374
03:48:28,320 --> 03:48:31,120
Speaker 4: life never. Left trump called him second in command. Globally

4375
03:48:31,200 --> 03:48:34,080
Speaker 4: that thing not outside the realm of, possibility but it's

4376
03:48:34,080 --> 03:48:36,920
Speaker 4: also not lear. Right there's not like a direct like

4377
03:48:37,760 --> 03:48:40,040
Speaker 4: pyramid chart that we can go. To it was a

4378
03:48:40,120 --> 03:48:43,520
Speaker 4: JOINT Us nigerian. Operation we saw overhead. Videos looks to

4379
03:48:43,560 --> 03:48:45,280
Speaker 4: me like it's from a. Drone it seems like there

4380
03:48:45,320 --> 03:48:48,760
Speaker 4: was a helicopteric, component potentially a ground component as. Well THE,

4381
03:48:48,879 --> 03:48:51,640
Speaker 4: us of course has had special and conventional forces In

4382
03:48:51,680 --> 03:48:56,920
Speaker 4: africa for, decades but this is still a remarkable strike for.

4383
03:48:56,959 --> 03:49:00,480
Speaker 4: Them it will be maybe the first to. Many it

4384
03:49:00,480 --> 03:49:03,400
Speaker 4: seems like they were doing several almost every day this.

4385
03:49:03,480 --> 03:49:05,800
Speaker 4: Week judging by The Saint Colm Media where's page WHICH

4386
03:49:05,880 --> 03:49:10,240
Speaker 4: i will link in the, sources, well go ahead and

4387
03:49:10,240 --> 03:49:13,160
Speaker 4: email Us gone, Yep Cool zone tips at protone dot.

4388
03:49:13,200 --> 03:49:16,960
Speaker 2: Me sure we reported the.

4389
03:49:16,960 --> 03:49:20,680
Speaker 7: News arguably put a turns girl on your.

4390
03:49:20,680 --> 03:49:22,200
Speaker 4: Couch Rip Stephen?

4391
03:49:22,200 --> 03:49:30,320
Speaker 2: Colbert is he? Dead we reported the. News, Hey we'll

4392
03:49:30,320 --> 03:49:33,440
Speaker 2: be Back monday with more episodes every week from now

4393
03:49:33,520 --> 03:49:34,440
Speaker 2: until the heat death of The.

4394
03:49:34,520 --> 03:49:37,880
Speaker 18: Universe It Could Happen here is a production of Cool Zone.

4395
03:49:37,920 --> 03:49:40,960
Speaker 18: Media for more podcasts from Cool Zone, media visit our

4396
03:49:40,960 --> 03:49:43,960
Speaker 18: website Cool zonemedia dot, com or check us out on

4397
03:49:44,000 --> 03:49:47,160
Speaker 18: The iHeartRadio, App Apple, podcasts or wherever.

4398
03:49:46,880 --> 03:49:47,440
Speaker 1: You listen to.

4399
03:49:47,480 --> 03:49:50,240
Speaker 18: Podcasts you can now find sources For It Could happen,

4400
03:49:50,280 --> 03:49:52,960
Speaker 18: here listed directly in episode. Descriptions thanks for.

4401
03:49:53,040 --> 03:49:53,440
Speaker 1: Listening