Speaker 1: Before we had New York City, there was Pompeii. You
Speaker 1: might know it as the longest ongoing archaeological dig site
Speaker 1: in the world. But in its heyday it was cosmopolitan, international, exciting.
Speaker 1: You went there to have a lot of fun. From
Speaker 1: what scholars can tell, it seems that life there was good.
Speaker 1: Pompei was just one jewel in the crown of the
Speaker 1: Roman Empire, and as such benefited from all the spoils
Speaker 1: of conquest. It had just about everything, entertainment, restaurants, public baths, temples, brothels,
Speaker 1: you name it. There were beautifully manicured gardens, kept animals.
Speaker 1: The climate was temperate, and agriculture was abundant. Pompeiis eleven
Speaker 1: thousand person population was small by today's standards for what
Speaker 1: we might call a city, but for a little perspective,
Speaker 1: scholars believe that only about a hundred people lived in
Speaker 1: the Roman and Hires london I um London's forerunner around
Speaker 1: the same time. Compared to many other places. Pompeii was
Speaker 1: a city. But as the saying goes, all good things
Speaker 1: must come to an end. Mount Vesuvius had created the
Speaker 1: physical geography of Pompeii with an eruption and would put
Speaker 1: an end to all of it with just one more
Speaker 1: in She did just that. In the aftermath, Pompeii probably
Speaker 1: looked like something between a lunar landscape and a nuclear
Speaker 1: fallout zone. The city would fade from memory, becoming something
Speaker 1: of myth and legend until it was accidentally found again
Speaker 1: fifteen centuries later. And while Pompeii had become best known
Speaker 1: for how its story ended, archaeologists have busied themselves with
Speaker 1: trying to understand the city before the eruption, and one
Speaker 1: of the ways we've gone about this has been through
Speaker 1: discovering how the city eight. Just a few years ago,
Speaker 1: a team from Ohio was digging around in the remains
Speaker 1: of fast food stalls. They found evidence of a standard
Speaker 1: Mediterranean diet it legooms, olive pits, nuts, seeds, that sort
Speaker 1: of thing. But they also found salted fish which would
Speaker 1: have been a product from Spain, and different kinds of
Speaker 1: shellfish not native to Italy. And as a side note,
Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions about transporting shellfish overseas
Speaker 1: in the days before reliable refrigeration, but those are going
Speaker 1: to have to wait for another day. And among all
Speaker 1: this tasty debris, they came upon something very exciting. Lying
Speaker 1: in a trash pit was a butchered leg joint of
Speaker 1: a giraffe. The question, of course, is how an exotic
Speaker 1: animal like a giraffe ended up on the dinner menu.
Speaker 1: After all, giraffe meat isn't exactly essential eating for anyone
Speaker 1: just trying to scrape by. It points to consumption by
Speaker 1: a refined pellet, perhaps someone or some people's with a
Speaker 1: desire for novelty, and this was something that the city
Speaker 1: of Pompeii, poised on the seaside and doing a brisk
Speaker 1: international trade, was able to afford itself. We humans have
Speaker 1: long been interested in things that wow us. We love
Speaker 1: to marvel and get our kicks. Many of us orient
Speaker 1: our lives towards newness and discovery, and when we find
Speaker 1: these things, we celebrate them in the form of gaudy
Speaker 1: displays of wealth, announcing scientific discoveries, embracing new sensory experiences,
Speaker 1: or by curating unique collections. I'm Aaron Manky, and welcome
Speaker 1: to the side show. If Ptolemy, the second Philadelphist, was
Speaker 1: around today, he probably would have loved fast cars, expensive vacations,
Speaker 1: and bottle service. That's all to say he was a
Speaker 1: hedonist of the highest regard. So when he ascended to
Speaker 1: the throne, he decided to throw himself a parade, and
Speaker 1: it was going to be big, really big. In fact,
Speaker 1: he wanted to create one of the most extravagant and
Speaker 1: elaborate festivals in history. The city of Alexandria was soaked
Speaker 1: with sun and anticipation that February day in two b C.
Speaker 1: Thousands of people poured into the city from around the Mediterranean.
Speaker 1: Packing the wide column line boulevards. They craned their necks
Speaker 1: Joscelyne each other ancy to get a view. We can
Speaker 1: imagine all of this some two thousand years before Macy's
Speaker 1: ever launched a single Thanksgiving Day float. The heart of
Speaker 1: Ptolemy's festival was going to be his collection of animals.
Speaker 1: They were big and exotic, and they were set to
Speaker 1: march two by two through the city. Too many in
Speaker 1: the crowd. These were alien other life forms. Most people
Speaker 1: had never seen such things before. In a cloud of dust,
Speaker 1: twenty four elephants drawing chariots came into view. According to
Speaker 1: one eye witness, they pulled and I quote, billy goats,
Speaker 1: hornless antelope oryx is Boubaila's ostriches, two thousand, four hundred,
Speaker 1: Indian dogs, Ethiopian cows, a white bear, leopards, wildcats, carrat calls,
Speaker 1: a giraffe, and a rhinoceros, as well as captive human
Speaker 1: spectacles from across the continent. The non human animals, though,
Speaker 1: had a curious purpose. They weren't domesticated pat creatures, and
Speaker 1: they weren't pets either. They were somewhere in between owned
Speaker 1: and no longer wild, but not domesticated either. These animals
Speaker 1: were commodities, and their captivity suggested something that whoever owned
Speaker 1: them had enough wealth to maintain them and, perhaps more impressively,
Speaker 1: power over the lands from which they came. As the
Speaker 1: world modernized and urban centers grew, people began to feel
Speaker 1: more disconnected from nature. There was a desire to recreate
Speaker 1: natural settings, but in a more convenient kind of way,
Speaker 1: so people began designing gardens, importing plants, seeds, and bulb
Speaker 1: weren't too hard to transport after all. The animals, though,
Speaker 1: they were more finicky, but people with money they could
Speaker 1: have anything they wanted. Collection rivalry seems to have developed
Speaker 1: early on. Why well, just typical neighbors trying to keep
Speaker 1: up with the Joneses. You could say, these days, if
Speaker 1: you have a midlife crisis, you might buy a shiny jaguar.
Speaker 1: Back then, you bought a literal one. And we know
Speaker 1: that this impulse to collect animals existed in almost every
Speaker 1: ancient civilization. In fact, one of the earliest collections appeared
Speaker 1: long before Ptolemy's Parade, right around b C. In Egypt,
Speaker 1: their rulers kept various creatures. They would teach them to
Speaker 1: dance and obey orders. In a way, you can think
Speaker 1: of this as one of the very earliest forms of
Speaker 1: using animals for entertainment. Ramsey's the Second, for example, had
Speaker 1: a tamed lion which would accompany him wherever he went
Speaker 1: in battle. Lions kept in cages and pits and meant
Speaker 1: to impress important visitors, were also popular in upper crust Mesopotamia.
Speaker 1: Mesoamerican civilizations are thoughts to have held their collections for
Speaker 1: ritual and aesthetic purposes. In ancient Greece, they were traveling
Speaker 1: shows that featured dancing bears. As Greco Roman infrastructure crumbled,
Speaker 1: many animal collections were likewise dismantled. However, many European rulers
Speaker 1: kept on with their own, and over the years, animal
Speaker 1: collections became popular attractions, not just for the wealthy as
Speaker 1: they had been, but for the pain public as well.
Speaker 1: These animal collections, it seems we're here to stay along.
Speaker 1: Dead European once joked that the only reason the America's
Speaker 1: had animals was due to Noah's flood. The idea was
Speaker 1: that the shipwrecked animal cargo was on its way not
Speaker 1: to salvation, but to European menagerie's. The word menagerie itself
Speaker 1: is thought to be rooted in an old French word
Speaker 1: for farmyard. Menagerie's as we understand them today didn't develop
Speaker 1: as a form of public entertainment until about the sixteenth century,
Speaker 1: but a hundred years later they seem to be everywhere.
Speaker 1: In the history of menagerie's, there are a few that
Speaker 1: stand out, and it's from these collections of creatures collected
Speaker 1: like pokemon, that people began to realize their potential for
Speaker 1: helping us understand the greater world. They were proto zoos,
Speaker 1: if you will. Zoos, of course have an educational and
Speaker 1: scientific mission. They weren't quite there yet, but the idea
Speaker 1: was coming. Now, let's take a brief tour you've probably
Speaker 1: heard of our first stop before, but maybe as a
Speaker 1: place for condemned prisoners and executions, the Tower of London.
Speaker 1: But it was also home to one of Europe's oldest
Speaker 1: and longest continually running menagerie's. It was established in the
Speaker 1: thirteenth century during the reign of King Henry the Third,
Speaker 1: after he was gifted three leopards Leopards, by the way,
Speaker 1: that you can still find on the Royal coat of
Speaker 1: Arms of England. In twelve fifty two, at the king's orders,
Speaker 1: a budget was set aside for animal maintenance, which by
Speaker 1: this point had already expanded to include a polar bear.
Speaker 1: It said that the bear was allowed to fish for
Speaker 1: its food in the Thames, even if it had to
Speaker 1: wear a muzzle while doing so. Rumor has it that
Speaker 1: today the grounds are haunted not just by Anne Boleyn
Speaker 1: and her unfortunate contemporaries, but by a spectral bear, whose
Speaker 1: appearance is said to have caused at least one member
Speaker 1: of the Palace century to die of fright. Our next stop,
Speaker 1: the Jardin des Plants in France, might also ring a
Speaker 1: bell from earlier episodes in our series. It was an
Speaker 1: institution rooted in two distinct establishments, Louis the thirteenth Garden
Speaker 1: of Medicinal Herbs and Louis the sixteenths Menagerie. It became
Speaker 1: the first place to combine plants and creatures into exhibits,
Speaker 1: and at its height boasted over two hundred species of wildlife.
Speaker 1: And we can't forget about the menageries that took to
Speaker 1: the road try Leveling Animal acts of all kinds have
Speaker 1: been present throughout history. However, a few things had to
Speaker 1: intersect for the industry to flourish as it did. Combine
Speaker 1: an interest in private animal collections, rising scientific curiosity, and
Speaker 1: the entrepreneurial showman, and you get a potent cultural moment
Speaker 1: at a very hungry market. And of course, the largest
Speaker 1: and most famous name associated with traveling menageries during their
Speaker 1: boom in nineteenth century England was George Womble. George's entrance
Speaker 1: into the world of traveling animal collections, if the legends
Speaker 1: are true, may well have been an accident. Like many
Speaker 1: rural folks, he had come to London at some point
Speaker 1: around eighteen hundred in search of a city job. He
Speaker 1: found one, and one day, while most likely working as
Speaker 1: a cage maker, he went down to wander London's docks.
Speaker 1: It was here that he met two Boa constrictors, freshly
Speaker 1: delivered from across the ocean. He purchased them for the
Speaker 1: hefty sum of seventy five pounds and then with them
Speaker 1: on display at a small scale local venue. Doing so
Speaker 1: made him a small fortune, which he used to acquire
Speaker 1: even more animals. He then established his own menagerie at
Speaker 1: where else but Piccadilly Circus in eighteen o eight. Eventually, though,
Speaker 1: he took the show on the road. One story tells
Speaker 1: of him preparing for a big trip while loading a
Speaker 1: caged Bengal tiger onto a horse drawn carriage. The horse
Speaker 1: got spooked and bolted. The cage busted open, and the
Speaker 1: tiger escaped off into the streets of London, much to
Speaker 1: the dismay of George and everyone else involved. It was recaptured,
Speaker 1: but many hours later. George's acts and one's just like his,
Speaker 1: eventually evolved to showcase the relationships between animals and humans,
Speaker 1: echoing back to those dancing bears in Greece and animals
Speaker 1: fighting in Rome and some of the earliest English menagerie's.
Speaker 1: For example, elephants were trained to perform tricks like kneeling
Speaker 1: or picking up small object x. The spectacles soon became
Speaker 1: more elaborate and a lot more violent. Lion tamer acts
Speaker 1: were developed, showcasing human control and domination. Animals also came
Speaker 1: to be used in elaborate shows and pantomimes I think,
Speaker 1: dramatized in a theater or re enactments of famous battles.
Speaker 1: In these cases, horses and elephants were even trained to
Speaker 1: play dead. However, it was one of Wombell's most infamous
Speaker 1: acts that would firmly cement his place in the history books.
Speaker 1: On July he advertised a lion fight to take place
Speaker 1: in Warwick, England. There he promised to pit his lion
Speaker 1: Nero against six dogs. Nero, a docile creature, was at
Speaker 1: a disadvantage. He was totally ravaged. Witnessing this, wom Bell
Speaker 1: called the fight off before it was over, leaving the
Speaker 1: crowd incensed their thirst for blood hadn't been sated. George,
Speaker 1: a man of his word, it seems, promised to make
Speaker 1: it up to them. The following nights he invited the
Speaker 1: crowd to gather once again. This time George pitted a
Speaker 1: new lion, Wallace against three dogs and Wallace was a
Speaker 1: fighter for the price of about seventy dollars. Today, spectators
Speaker 1: had the pleasure of seeing the lion slaughter the three
Speaker 1: dogs in less than a minute. We can imagine it
Speaker 1: was a ghastly spectacle of carnage. The newspapers catching word
Speaker 1: of this were appalled, and they said as much. The
Speaker 1: scene would surely make for some angry tweets and live
Speaker 1: streams today. Over the course of an evening, George Wombell,
Speaker 1: already famous, suddenly became infamous. And if you're shuddering, here's
Speaker 1: some balm for your heart. Some people believed that these
Speaker 1: events never actually happened, that they were just one more
Speaker 1: clever albeits horrifying publicity stunt, engineered for the sake of
Speaker 1: the mighty dollar, a trick pulled right from the playbook
Speaker 1: of the world of traveling curiosities. All good origin stories
Speaker 1: help us make sense of our present. When deployed correctly,
Speaker 1: origin stories can help us draw a linear thread through
Speaker 1: our lives, and sometimes we can sell these stories for profits.
Speaker 1: Isaac van Amberg was one of these people. In the
Speaker 1: case of his life, he claims that it all came
Speaker 1: to his mother in a dream. She was pregnant with him.
Speaker 1: He said, when she dreamt of an old barn, she
Speaker 1: walked inside, and there found rows of bubbling cauldrons. When
Speaker 1: she peered inside them, she found boiling lion parts, and
Speaker 1: in true Goldilocks fashion, she took a taste of each. Finally,
Speaker 1: she arrived at the last pot and found a simmering
Speaker 1: lion's head. She plucked it out of its stew and
Speaker 1: put the whole thing in her mouth. It was then,
Speaker 1: according to Isaac's retelling, that she awoke with a fright.
Speaker 1: What could this mean for her unborn child? Fild for him.
Speaker 1: In his early teens, he went to New York City
Speaker 1: to work as a clerk at a warehouse for a relative,
Speaker 1: But at some point in the early eighteen twenties he
Speaker 1: was hired to work as a cage cleaner for the
Speaker 1: New York Zoological Institute. It said that the headline tamer
Speaker 1: there was killed while trying to move a line from
Speaker 1: one cage to another. It was then that Isaac offered
Speaker 1: to the end I quote, tame the spirit of the animal,
Speaker 1: which he did with a crowbar. This decision was based
Speaker 1: on a strange act of faith. You see, he recalled
Speaker 1: the biblical Daniel escaping from the lions den and resolved
Speaker 1: that he wouldn't be the one to run away from danger. Instead,
Speaker 1: he would run toward it. By the mid eighteen thirties,
Speaker 1: Isaac had risen through the ranks, becoming famous as an
Speaker 1: animal tamer in his own right. People came to his
Speaker 1: shows not just wanting to see animals in cages, but
Speaker 1: also to see people carousing with them. And they came
Speaker 1: to see man triumph over nature because it helps them
Speaker 1: feel good about their place in the world. They wanted
Speaker 1: to be shocked and odd, to feel close to danger
Speaker 1: without having to touch it. This is a very human feeling,
Speaker 1: after all. So with a large cage filled with wild animals,
Speaker 1: a lion, panther, a tiger, and a leopard to be exact,
Speaker 1: Isaac would boldly enter, dressed in a costume that broadcast
Speaker 1: his authority. He would stand tall as the animals quivered
Speaker 1: before him and the audience would gasp. It was then
Speaker 1: that the lion would come over and lick his hand
Speaker 1: and lay at his feet, as did the leopard. The
Speaker 1: tiger rolled on its side and Isaac would step on
Speaker 1: the animal's neck. Then he would sit down with his
Speaker 1: back against the cage, calling the animals to him. Not surprisingly,
Speaker 1: people wondered how Isaac was able to instill spontaneous peace
Speaker 1: in his animals, But it was all just a facade.
Speaker 1: This piece had been gained through exceptional cruelty, both behind
Speaker 1: the scenes and sometimes on the stage itself. He later
Speaker 1: described his process of taming the animals in part by
Speaker 1: saying that he spoke to them as though they were humans.
Speaker 1: He said, they believe that I have the power to
Speaker 1: tear every one of them in pieces if they do
Speaker 1: not act as I say. I tell them so, and
Speaker 1: have frequently enforced it with a crowbar. Isaac went on
Speaker 1: to appear in London in the summer of eighteen thirty eight.
Speaker 1: His lions and tigers arrived on a separate boat, and
Speaker 1: when he reunited with them, the local press reported that
Speaker 1: the animals recognized him immediately, crouching and wagging their tails.
Speaker 1: His newest act that season was a play. In it,
Speaker 1: Isaac played the role of a man condemned to death
Speaker 1: for plotting an emperor's assassination. As punishment, he was thrown
Speaker 1: into the den with two lions, a tiger and a leopard.
Speaker 1: Then he would force them all into submission and bring
Speaker 1: out a lamb to lie down with the lion. The
Speaker 1: piece to resistance of the whole act, though, was when
Speaker 1: he pried the lion's jaws apart and put his head inside,
Speaker 1: the first person thought to have ever done so, and
Speaker 1: an echo of what his mother had once dreamed, and
Speaker 1: the title of that play, The Brute Tamer of Pompeii.
Speaker 1: Our fascination with animal people relationships continues today. We are
Speaker 1: curious creatures. Much of our curiosity is perhaps motivated by
Speaker 1: the pursuit of knowledge about the world for its own
Speaker 1: sake or for us to better care for it, but
Speaker 1: we also remain interested in the seemingly pairing of opposites,
Speaker 1: of the transcending boundaries, and the expression of human superiority,
Speaker 1: and all of this is captured in the Animal side show.
Speaker 1: We've also continued to see interest in animal trainers and acts.
Speaker 1: For example, popular television shows like Tiger King have traced
Speaker 1: the expand of an interesting, oftentimes dubious animal conservation movement
Speaker 1: that allows you to get up close and personal with
Speaker 1: these creatures. The practice of wealthy folks amassing large collections
Speaker 1: of animals for their own enjoyment also continues. Infamous drug
Speaker 1: lord Pablo Escobar established his own elaborate menagerie, some of
Speaker 1: which escaped following his death. His collection has since become
Speaker 1: a public zoo. And then, of course there was Roy.
Speaker 1: You probably already know him. It was just another fall
Speaker 1: day in two thousand three when he went to work.
Speaker 1: He had been at this gig for decades, but this
Speaker 1: day would be his last. While under the hot lights
Speaker 1: of a Las Vegas stage, Roy's longtime friend Monticore viciously
Speaker 1: attacked him. Why well, it was hard to get an
Speaker 1: alibi from him, but we can certainly guess. Roy was
Speaker 1: left with debilitating, career ending injuries, but Monticore would get
Speaker 1: off the hook later dying of natural causes. They were
Speaker 1: never were able to charge him with the crime, because well,
Speaker 1: montcor was a tiger and the performance of Siegfried and
Speaker 1: Roy would never be the same. If you're anything like me,
Speaker 1: this episode has made it easy to reflect on the
Speaker 1: relationship we have with our own four legged friends. I know,
Speaker 1: around the grim and mild office, one of the things
Speaker 1: you can count on seeing every day in our group
Speaker 1: chat our photos of our furry companions. But we're not
Speaker 1: quite done discussing the connection between animals and the side show.
Speaker 1: Stick around through this brief sponsor break to hear one
Speaker 1: more tale At that intersection. Joseph Merrick had seen a
Speaker 1: lot of spectacles on this night, though at the Theater
Speaker 1: Royal in London, something special was happening to him. Hidden
Speaker 1: in a private balcony box, he was able to be
Speaker 1: an audience member for that year's Christmas play. It was
Speaker 1: an opportunity he was rarely given. Considering how he was
Speaker 1: the one who is used to being watched, his ambitions
Speaker 1: certainly weren't unusual. He wished for friends, a family, to
Speaker 1: move about freely. We can imagine that he also wished
Speaker 1: for kindness. Years later, after he died, the same man
Speaker 1: who conducted inquiries into the Jack the Ripper murders would
Speaker 1: call for an investigation of Joseph's death. It was a
Speaker 1: sad end. Really, he was only seven and his life
Speaker 1: had been very complicated. When it comes to the Side Show,
Speaker 1: the truth is that the institution itself is complicated. Each
Speaker 1: individual came into it with circumstances that set them on
Speaker 1: a specific trajectory in life. The sideshow itself was home
Speaker 1: to a spectrum of experiences. It was neither all good
Speaker 1: nor all bad. For some, this was the only place
Speaker 1: where they were going to find work because of how
Speaker 1: they looked. For others, they altered their looks because they
Speaker 1: wanted to join the ranks. Many were trafficked because of
Speaker 1: their physical appeal. And for the rest, it was a
Speaker 1: combination of all of those things, a sticky mess that
Speaker 1: called into question the idea of agency, power, self determination
Speaker 1: and the almighty dollar. Joseph was born in Leicester, England,
Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty two. He was the son of a
Speaker 1: working class family and lived fairly normal childhood. By the
Speaker 1: time he turned five, though, something started to happen. He
Speaker 1: began developing patches of grayish, lumpy skin all over his body.
Speaker 1: After that came the fleshy tumors in the bony growths,
Speaker 1: and most notably of all was a long, fleshy protrusion
Speaker 1: that began to grow and dangle beneath his upper lip.
Speaker 1: His hips ached, and he began to walk with a cane.
Speaker 1: His speech also became impaired. With every passing year, his
Speaker 1: body continued to morph in ways no one had seen before.
Speaker 1: Doctors couldn't slow his condition, and people began to grow
Speaker 1: afraid of him, and the physical demands of his job
Speaker 1: in the workhouse made it unsustainable, so at the age
Speaker 1: of twenty two, he decided to enter the sideshow trade
Speaker 1: and see if he could sell his body. He came
Speaker 1: into contact with a man by the name of Sam Tor,
Speaker 1: who ran a human oddity show. It was here that
Speaker 1: Joseph got his new billing. He would from here on
Speaker 1: out be known as the Elephant Man, and in the
Speaker 1: long tradition of side shows, they created a story to
Speaker 1: go with him. They said that his deformities were a
Speaker 1: result of his mother being frightened by an elephant while
Speaker 1: he was still in utero. It was a concept known
Speaker 1: as maternal impression and fairly popular at the time. The
Speaker 1: lecturer would be sure to remind the audience of his humanity,
Speaker 1: claiming that if you were to cut Joseph, you would
Speaker 1: bleed the same blood as quote yours or mine. Even so,
Speaker 1: women were discouraged from visiting his exhibit for fear that
Speaker 1: they would become upset or that their children would be
Speaker 1: born looking like him. Towards the end of his life,
Speaker 1: Joseph lived at a hospital in London. He dreamt of
Speaker 1: the outside world, reading novels and picking flowers. There, he
Speaker 1: spent time thinking about what could have been a doctor
Speaker 1: who had taken care of him. Later said, it was
Speaker 1: not until I came to know that Merrick was highly intelligent,
Speaker 1: that he possessed an acute sensibility, and worse than all,
Speaker 1: a romantic imagination, that I realized the overwhelming tragedy of
Speaker 1: his life. His story, you see, doesn't have a happy ending,
Speaker 1: although at this point in our series you know that
Speaker 1: they all won't. They can't. And there are many trite
Speaker 1: things to say here about judging a book by its cover,
Speaker 1: about being kind of strangers, about everyone fighting their own battle,
Speaker 1: but we shouldn't have to be confronted with such an
Speaker 1: extreme case of mothering to have compassion for human and
Speaker 1: non human creatures alike. Sideshow was written by Robin Miniter
Speaker 1: with narration by me Aaron Manky. Research for the series
Speaker 1: was by Robin Minator, Taylor Haggard Dorn, and Sam Alberty,
Speaker 1: with production assistants from Josh Than, Jesse Funk, Alex Williams,
Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick. Grim and Mile Presents was created in
Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio. You can learn more about
Speaker 1: this show and everything else from Grim and mild over
Speaker 1: at grim and mild dot com, and as always, thanks
Speaker 1: for listening.