WEBVTT - Book tour bonus with Kara Swisher 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:07.200 Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next Question 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:10.600 and has promised. I'm here to share some bonus content 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:13.960 from my cross country book tour. At every city I 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.919 traveled to, I was joined by celebrity guests, people I've 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:19.680 come to know over the years and can call friends. 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:22.120 I know that sounds very name drop, he doesn't it. 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.080 The first interview I'm sharing with you is a timely 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.080 one and just a really good conversation from my stop 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:31.120 in Washington, d C, where I interviewed the one and 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:36.040 only Kara Swisher, tech journalist, podcaster, beloved nuisance to pretty 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.640 much all of Silicon Valley. Well, I don't know how 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:42.200 beloved she is, but you get the drift anyway. She's 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:44.960 so smart and such a riot, So I hope you 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:50.199 enjoy our conversation. My next guest is the master of 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:55.400 new media and one badass podcast, among many other things, 0:00:55.800 --> 0:01:09.520 So please welcome my friend Kara Swisher. Hey, woman, Hey, 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.280 how are you good? Good? Have a scene and I 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:14.880 just tell you what a production this is. I know, 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.720 what do you think? I've been pressed? It's been really 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.200 really sentimental. It's badass. It's a lot of things going 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.240 on than you I like you to have a little 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.560 hokey little but it works, okay, good good, Well, I 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.280 don't know. I think sometimes it's only for like like 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:34.640 heavy metal concerts this place, but I like it. You 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:36.520 two look like you look like a crazy crowd. You 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:40.720 could just get any time anyway, Saturday night. So let's 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.199 talk about I mean, you're sort of everywhere. You're having 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.720 a moment, Kara. I think you've been having a moment 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.080 for a while. Now tell everybody the kind of work 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.880 you're doing, because you're everywhere, right, Yes, everywhere. I am everywhere. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:56.120 I am ubiquitous ahead and then later inevitable. Um no, 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.920 I just I have two podcasts, one for New York 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.080 Magazine called piv It, where I argue with a straight 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.880 white man every every twice a week, uh named Scott Galloway. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.680 Um it's it's a sitcom. In the end we're gonna 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:13.280 fall in love and unlikely romance. Um and then and 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.079 then I have Sway for The New York Times, which 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:16.840 I'm wearing this a friend of mine gave it to 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.040 me from that that company that makes at least it 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:23.119 doesn't think whatever I know. They say, go girl, which 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:25.440 I would never wear. But this one is cool. And 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.480 you're also you're writing your column column for the New 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:34.200 York Times and you're doing a new podcast after Yes, Yeah, 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.280 because I'm obsessed with Succession. Why why are you obsessed? 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:39.519 I've been doing stuff with a trio for years around 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.400 Silicon Valley and before that, Game of Thrones, and I 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.480 love Succession. I think it's a great show, um I 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:47.240 and I just I am a fan, and so I 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.320 just I sit around and talk about it with different 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.040 people about what's happened on the show. And you know, 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:54.239 not that it has anything to do with the Murdochs, 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.320 but you know, I work for them for many years, 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.560 and it's enjoyable to see a fictional version of Uncle Satan. 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:04.360 So so let's let's talk about the media landscape. Because 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:06.760 you and I are around the same age. I think 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:09.920 you're six years younger, giver take something like that. Yeah, 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.040 And as I was saying, when I got into the business, 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:15.560 when you got into the business, it was extremely different. 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:18.280 And I'm just curious, as you look at this extremely 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.959 fragmented media landscape, how do you think it's changed sort 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.400 of the nature of our country and the quality of 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.440 discourse that we're able to have Well, you know you 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.560 you were talking about the idea Katie gave us a 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.120 script which none of us are going to follow, but 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.360 nonetheless I love that she does that, Like Nicole and 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:36.960 I are such quiet and retiring people, and it's like, 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.400 here's the script. Well, I just wanted to give you 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:43.760 a little like the whole Katie correct production. I called 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:45.800 Katie just so you know, my nickname for his Katie 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:50.160 fucking Kirk, because because I want her to be like 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.560 the baddest that I know. She is underneath, like she's 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:55.840 yes you are, Yes you are. I'm getting there, You're 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.840 getting there. I like that so COMMUNI one of the 0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:00.680 reasons I got to know kid because she was at 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:02.720 Yahoo and I thought it was a real risk that 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.720 you took. Not many people from the mainstream media moved 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:08.960 into the areas that you did, and I thought that 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.760 was striking actually at the time, even though it wasn't 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:17.080 completely successful, that it was directionally correct. We were doing 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.480 exactly what a lot of people are doing on sub 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.920 steck or creating their own media brands or this and that, 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:24.159 and nobody was doing that then. So I thought that was, 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.000 you know, striking when you did it, and I was. 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:29.040 I watched it very carefully. I think it was probably 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.400 too early and in the wrong place. Yes, so the 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.840 idea of of a journalist as an entrepreneur, uh and 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.320 some people call it the report entrepreneur, which I hate 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.320 that word, but there it is, um and I think 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.640 it was. I think there is no such thing as 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.039 mass media anymore. There's media that's in silos. There is 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.000 you know, there are networks and things like that. But 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.760 when you joined CBS, it was already declining asset, right like. 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.760 And so it was interesting that that we still focus 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.080 that way as if there's one place people get news 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:02.360 there it actually is. It's Facebook, um, but it is 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:04.920 in the most of the world it is, actually And 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.039 so it sort of has fractured and come together. And 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.400 then a lot of these voices using these tech tools, 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.120 which is what I started covering right here in Washington, 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:14.839 d C. For The Washington Post. I covered a O. 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.520 L Um the beginnings. Even though you sort of become 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.960 a joke now, it wasn't. It was a really important 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:24.799 moment in in media history, really, and so it's fractured 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.799 come together, and then all these voices that maybe aren't 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:31.400 quite so accurate have come into the fray and so so, 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.520 and it's ruined the media business itself, the advertising business, um, 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.120 how people pay attention, and so it's a really it's 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.200 it's a very difficult time for media right now. How 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.320 do you see it all shaking out? Do you think 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:49.120 it's I mean that I get overwhelmed with content, and 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.880 you know, there are not enough hours in the day 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.240 to absorb and reflect on all. And I think some 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:59.400 fantastic journalism is being absolutely it's just very hard to 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:01.840 separate the week from the chaff. Well, it's a little 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.760 like TV, right that's sort of disintermediated rather substantively. There's 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:08.640 all these things. It's a lot of competition. That's why 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:10.480 you're getting some really getting a lot of stuff, and 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.920 then you're getting a lot of really good stuff. Same 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.000 thing with media. It's disintermediated. And what part of me 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.440 likes it. Like when you were starting out there were 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:23.159 three networks ruined mostly by white straight men, right, who 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:25.840 all lived on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, and 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:27.280 they got to the side things. Same thing with the 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.440 New York Times, same thing here with the Washington Post. 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:31.960 And so I like the idea of it being pushed outward, 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.240 so that lots of people can contribute, but what's happened 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:37.560 is a lot of these tools have taken over that 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:41.640 allow malevolent players to join the fray and start to 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.720 mess up the whole information ecosystem. And so people live 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:50.800 on a low, low nutrition information diet. So many and 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.520 they already did, but now they're they're getting They already 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.440 didn't have good information. Now they're getting really bad sort 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:02.920 of sugary, uh, bad for your self information which they 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.760 are now protecting as if it's the right information, is 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.680 the correct information, and then they defend it. I feel 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.360 like we have to obviously, and you actually made a 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.040 joke about this, we have to talk about Facebook because 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.760 it's been in the crosshairs. I know you're dying to 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.200 cover other things, but you just simply can't. I didn't 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:26.120 interview at a Vanity Fair summit seventeen with Cheryl Samberg. 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.080 Wait it was two thousand nineteen, I'm sorry, with Cheryl Samberg. Um, 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.480 and she got quite testy and it became really a 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:37.320 little bit tense. But you had interviewed I think Mark 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.400 Zuckerberg a year prior to that and made a lot 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.680 of news with that interview. Um, what are your impressions 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.400 of Mark Zuckerberg today. Well, it's been a journey, you know, 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:49.640 one of the time working actually in a memoir Silicon 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:51.800 Valley right now. That and I was recalling when I 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:53.800 first met him, And the first thing you ever said 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.400 to me is I heard you think I'm an asshole? UM? 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:01.120 And I said, I you maybe, UM, I don't know. Uh, 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.000 He's not an asshole. Let me just say after all 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.520 these years, UM, But what's happened? You know? That was 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.800 a great interview, by the way, Katie, you should watch 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.880 it if it's available, because Cheryl is very smooth, and 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:12.840 it was brought in to be the adult in the room. 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:14.760 They always do that as but the man is thirty 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:16.680 four years old. He doesn't need this sort of the 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.520 juvenilization of these tech people is comical in some ways. 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.280 He's got children, etcetera, etcetera. But she was brought in 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:26.640 to be the adult. Um. And so you pushed her 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.360 very hard on the issues that I had started talking about. 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.520 Because the relationship I developed Maria Ressa, who has just 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:35.080 won the Nobel Peace Prize, she started bringing me data, 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.960 tons of data about what was Facebook was doing to 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.520 her and other activists and journalists in the Philippines used 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.160 the government using it for propaganda, and so when you 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.320 were pushing back on her, this was the first time 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:50.959 you started to see real widespread questioning of what how 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.440 they were running the show over there, which was not 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.080 well um and even though they've gotten fabulously wealthy, even 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.000 though they were very powerful and stuff like that. So 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:00.960 it was a critical interview that you did with her 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.400 because she was expecting sort of a hey Katie girl, 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:05.560 you know that kind of thing going on, and you 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:07.520 did not deliver that. And I was thrilled. I think 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:10.839 I texted you like thank you. She was not. I 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.440 didn't really talked like I didn't talked to her since 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:15.560 that interview that I haven't talked to her for many years, 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:17.360 even though I knew her really well. But same thing 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:19.280 with Mark. You know that interview I did with her 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:23.000 the year before was with him the year before. It's 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.880 when he said to me we were talking about Alex Jones, 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:27.640 and I'm like, you're kicking him off the platform. He's 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:30.120 breaking every one of your rules. Don't you who's running 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:31.720 the show here if you're not going to do this, 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.720 And he started to do this sort of first Amendment stuff, 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:38.520 and someone who I went finished college. He did not. 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.160 I understood what the first Amendment was. He does not, 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:43.360 and and so but I let him go on. I 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.559 let him go on, and he nothing. By the way, 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.319 if you don't want to go to college, that's great, 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:51.559 it's whatever choice you make. But don't like make it 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.480 as if it's a good thing good to be uneducated, 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:56.400 right like, or not to know what you're talking about. 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.760 So he um uh. So he started to about Alice Jones, 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:02.000 and I was like, you're going to kick him off. 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.120 He's like violating every one of your so called rules 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.320 here on this platform. And uh. He goes, well, let's 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:12.160 shift to the Holocaust. And I'm like, oh no, no, 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.319 don't do that. But okay, sure, let's see where this goes. 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:17.760 And he was sort of trying to set himself up, 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:22.679 saying that he, even as a Jewish person, tolerates Holocaust deniers. 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:24.760 And he said something that was that got a lot 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:26.440 of news what you were talking about, which you said, 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:30.640 you know, Holocaust deniers don't mean to lie. And I 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.360 just sat there like, huh like, and of course it 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:35.280 was I learned a lot of interviewing from you. I 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.400 just like the Palin interview was so brilliant, um, where 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.240 I just was like, oh, they don't huh, that's kind 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.560 of the definition of a Holocaust denier. But okay, UM, 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.440 tell me more, and which is you you use too 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.400 much effect? And so he started talking about this and 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.600 sort of ran himself right into the wall essentially, and 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.960 since then, um, he's continued to do so, I think. 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.040 Oh and as you can see from these documents from 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:04.080 Francis Howgan, we'll talk about those documents right after this. 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.559 Let's talk about those documents more than what ten thousand 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.640 pages more to come, yeah, and more to come. What 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:22.880 do you think we're some of the most damning things 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.360 that those documents show, because there are a lot of 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.360 damning things, but what we're sort of the top three 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.800 things I'll tell you with the media focus on was 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.640 Team Girls, although I didn't I know, I didn't think 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:36.840 that was the most important things, even though it is important. 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.520 I have teenagers, um, and I understand their teenage boys, 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.680 but uh, and I have a daughter now who's two, UM, 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.400 and I think about it a lot. But I think 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:48.080 one of the things that was most important was the 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.000 thing that Maria was talking about is how Facebook impacts 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.040 the rest of the world, and how sloppy they are 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:57.160 in terms of monitoring their platform from elevolent players. And 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.480 it's one of these things I didn't interview with Mark 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.440 Bennie off set of Salesforce. He compared them to cigarette companies. 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.600 I don't think they're quite down that evil highway. There's 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:07.880 not a memo that goes, hey, we know it's a mess, 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.840 but let's let's throw them anyway, let's kill them anyway. 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.240 So I think what they're doing is they're showing a 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.280 company that has no grasp of what they're they've created, 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.280 except that they have enormous impact everywhere around the world, 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.200 whether it's you know, election misinformation or anti vaccine anti 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.360 vaccination information if you want to call it that um 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.000 or whatever whatever it happens to be, wherever it is 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:34.280 around the world. This is a platform that's proliferated like 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.280 I don't know, mold, I don't know what to call it, 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.960 but it's everywhere, It's everywhere, all around you, and they're 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.160 not monitoring it correctly, nor do they have an idea 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:44.760 of what to do. And so what do they do 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:49.560 They rebrand? Why not? Yes, I will save about the 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.880 rebranding mess book. Meta is now the name of Facebook, 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:57.440 I call it, but go ahead, seta has it's a 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:01.720 better tasting. So so this is I'm cute. This is 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.720 a really a fascinating thing because this was just announced 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.680 by Mark Zuckerberg and um, First of all, what do 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:13.040 you think was the goal of rebranding? But also what 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:17.000 is the meta verse that Facebook is trying to create 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.400 and why are they trying to do it? The metaverse 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:21.240 is an old idea. This is you know, you've seen 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.240 it in all these movies. You've seen the Matrix anything, 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.840 You've seen Lots and lot Tron. There's all kinds of ideas. 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.080 Which is ready player one? It started with snow Crash 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.920 Neil Stevenson. Um, it's the idea that you live in 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:37.080 the physical and digital worlds combined singularity. Right now, that's 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.959 becoming a machine. Okaytie, try to keep up. I'm sorry. 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.920 That's how you put a chip in your brain, like 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.480 Ellen is working on Elon Might and then your what's 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.559 his name? What the ray guy who's hurt? Yeah, I'm 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.000 seeing you. Like, so that's the machines in us coming together. 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.080 This is living and a living you live like he 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:58.280 showed off a really creepy video. I don't know if 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.440 you saw it, because Marcus specialized and creepy videos. Um. 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.240 And he you know, he's playing cards with his friends 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:08.120 and fencing. He's fencing, he's doing It's this idea that 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.280 you'll escape into this world and then move back and 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.439 forth between your physical It's an old idea. It's it's 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:15.199 an old and interesting idea. Now the matter will be 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.360 created by lots of companies. Facebook is making a massive 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.440 land grab to take over. They bought Oculus. They've got 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.800 a lot of very smart purchase back then. But one 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.000 of the problems he has is that he's losing young people. Uh, 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:29.080 you know, teens. If you talk to any teen, they 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.520 will not go near Facebook essentially, and so and even 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.400 Instagram is losing young it is, yes, it is. And 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.760 so one of the problems that he has he's got 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.440 to stay relevant. He also can't buy things because the 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.920 government finally is perking up its ears and going, maybe 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.880 we should possibly do our job and regulate this industry. 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:51.440 So so this is really a business play, isn't it. Yes, No, 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:53.720 it's it's it's a lot of things he's got, He's 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.040 got to move in another direction. He's like, he's got 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:58.400 a pivot. Well, yeah, so what he's got a dumpster 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.800 fire and he's like paying attention to that. I'm going 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.960 to go over here to the metaverse where we're going 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.400 to change my costume ten times. It's fine, we're gonna 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.080 do it. You're gonna wear glasses and someday but you'll 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.840 all be dead, so it won't matter so for you, 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:14.840 but the kids, the kids will love it. But do 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:16.400 you think I'm sure the kids will love it? By 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.640 the way, really, now, well, what about this document dump? 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:21.920 Do you think this is? You know, I know earlier 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.080 this month you said it's not going to change anything. Um, 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.200 and now I feel like you've moved into the direction of, hey, 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.560 maybe this is the last straw. Maybe the government, as 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:34.360 you here said, we'll do it straw. Here's why I 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.880 just interted Ken Buck, who's from Colorado. He worked with 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:42.000 David Cicillini. This is a conservative from Colorado who who 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.720 is very conservative working with a gay Democrat from Rhode 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.800 Island to bring legislation together. That doesn't happen often. I mean, 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.560 they can't decide on lunch. Congress can't do that, and 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.920 so they are working together in a bipartisan way that 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.960 is mostly helpful, and they're they're putting up bill. Senator 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.960 Clobuchar's one them. Um, there's a whole bunch of them. 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.440 But it's actually quite bipartisan. And that's what's great about it. Um, 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:07.880 we'll see if it gets anywhere, because they don't look, 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.920 they can't seem to do anything anymore. And the level 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.880 of partisanship is so high, and in this case it 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.640 isn't people do recognize powers the problem power of all tech, 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.560 not just Facebook but others companies, and that part of 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.080 it is to have more competition, right, I mean, I think, 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.000 isn't that what any Klovi petition will serve a lot? 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:27.800 Same thing with ken Buck And I think you know, 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.960 every now and then Ted Cruz lobs in an idiotic comment, 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:35.080 but otherwise it's just his job. I think, Um, you know, 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.400 tweet some it's a big tweeter. It's such a bad 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:43.080 he's such a bad tweeter. More from Kara Swisher and 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:53.680 my book tour right after this, How do you think 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:58.880 the media can earn trust again from people who are 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.640 consuming it? Or do think that just doesn't apply because 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.000 it's so well fractured. Did they trust the media before? 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.000 That's the that's a bigger question. I think levels of 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.119 trust among the press historically have been very low. I 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.640 just think they had that Watergate moment. I mean, look 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.320 at the pushback you've gotten for the Ruth Bader Ginsburg. 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.840 We talked about it on Sway, UM. You know that people. 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.439 It played into a narrative that you're the fixes in 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.840 among the Libs to protect this and that I think 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:31.560 in that case you can talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.160 I mean that was something that I wanted to write 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:39.160 about because I personally admired Justice Ginsburg a great deal 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.400 and everything that she had done for equality. Um. And 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:47.240 and when I asked her about Colin Kaepernick, she had 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.880 some very harsh words. She said, people who kneel during 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:55.879 the national anthem are dumb and arrogant and dumb and 0:17:55.960 --> 0:18:00.040 disrespectful and and she used were stupid and arrogant. And 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.200 it was sort of surprising to me. I went back 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:07.159 and her office called and said she misunderstood the question, 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:11.080 she wasn't really following the story that carefully, and then 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.000 she made some other off handed comment about it being 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.560 contempt for a government, and that these people are much 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.040 better off here than the countries they came from. I 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.840 ended up using two minutes of her answer. She had 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:28.880 to issue a statement saying she misspoke, her words were 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:33.119 unnecessarily harsh and dismissive, but that one piece I thought 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:36.959 I wasn't sure what she was saying. I bristled, and 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.480 I think I raised that in the book because I 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:42.800 think it was a mistake that I should have included it, 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.560 and that I let some of my personal um, you know, 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.960 my my admiration for her getting the way of my judgment. 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.280 And I thought that it would be actually helpful to 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:57.400 be transparent because journalists make these editorial decisions every day. 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.439 I've talked to many journalists through the years who have 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.399 made sort of decisions that they're not at all the 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:07.000 coverage of John Kennedy, that they're not totally comfortable with 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.719 UM and and that's why I chose to include it. 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:15.840 And I still think that transparency is really helpful when 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.520 it comes to trusting the media. And I was on 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.040 Stephen Colbert the other night and I said, you know, 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:25.080 if if some of these organizations admitted that journalists are 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.800 human beings and they sometimes don't make the right decisions, 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:32.240 like if NBC said it was a mistake for us 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.679 to sit on these Access Hollywood tapes so that the 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.800 Washington Post had to break it, or that CNN said 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.439 we shouldn't have allowed Chris Cuomo to yuck it up 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.440 with his governor brother with a giant Q tip at 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.040 the height of the pandemic and then not say a 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:52.280 word about sexual harassment allegations and you know, or that 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.560 CBS shouldn't have handed nd A s out like Halloween 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:59.880 candy that pushed out talented women and kept sexual harassm 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.199 is employed. So I think that admitting sometimes when you 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:09.639 make bad decisions is being transparent would actually increase trust. 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:11.600 But maybe I'm wrong. No, I don't think so at all. 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:13.800 I mean, I have a very different career than years 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.440 in that way. And then I'm always like, that's an idiot, 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:18.880 you know, and they're like you you have to be 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:21.360 you can't be biased. I'm like, oh, I'm biased, that's right. 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:23.479 Like I'm a person, Like what do you think I'm 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:25.119 not affected by the world. I have children, i have 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.320 a life, I've got you know, I'm gay, Like I 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:29.280 have opinions and I think One of the things we 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:31.679 did at All Things D and later at RICO was 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:35.399 we have like multi page disclosures and then we we 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:39.040 trust the audience. We don't hide from them. We don't 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:40.879 hide from them, because I think that was the thing, 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.199 is keeping yourself apart from audiences. You can't do that 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.399 anymore as a journalist, can you. You just have to 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:48.840 be really close and you have to be okay with 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.119 Like you were just talking about it. You didn't like disagreement. 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:53.360 You want everyone to like you. I luckily started out 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.080 life wanting everyone to dislike me, and therefore everything is 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:00.959 uphill from here. Um uh. And so it frees you 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.000