1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next Question 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: and has promised. I'm here to share some bonus content 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: from my cross country book tour. At every city I 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: traveled to, I was joined by celebrity guests, people I've 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: come to know over the years and can call friends. 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: I know that sounds very name drop, he doesn't it. 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: The first interview I'm sharing with you is a timely 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: one and just a really good conversation from my stop 9 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: in Washington, d C, where I interviewed the one and 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: only Kara Swisher, tech journalist, podcaster, beloved nuisance to pretty 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: much all of Silicon Valley. Well, I don't know how 12 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: beloved she is, but you get the drift anyway. She's 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: so smart and such a riot, So I hope you 14 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: enjoy our conversation. My next guest is the master of 15 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: new media and one badass podcast, among many other things, 16 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: So please welcome my friend Kara Swisher. Hey, woman, Hey, 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: how are you good? Good? Have a scene and I 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: just tell you what a production this is. I know, 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: what do you think? I've been pressed? It's been really 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: really sentimental. It's badass. It's a lot of things going 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: on than you I like you to have a little 22 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: hokey little but it works, okay, good good, Well, I 23 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: don't know. I think sometimes it's only for like like 24 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: heavy metal concerts this place, but I like it. You 25 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: two look like you look like a crazy crowd. You 26 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: could just get any time anyway, Saturday night. So let's 27 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,199 Speaker 1: talk about I mean, you're sort of everywhere. You're having 28 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: a moment, Kara. I think you've been having a moment 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: for a while. Now tell everybody the kind of work 30 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: you're doing, because you're everywhere, right, Yes, everywhere. I am everywhere. 31 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: I am ubiquitous ahead and then later inevitable. Um no, 32 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: I just I have two podcasts, one for New York 33 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: Magazine called piv It, where I argue with a straight 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: white man every every twice a week, uh named Scott Galloway. 35 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: Um it's it's a sitcom. In the end we're gonna 36 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: fall in love and unlikely romance. Um and then and 37 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: then I have Sway for The New York Times, which 38 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: I'm wearing this a friend of mine gave it to 39 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: me from that that company that makes at least it 40 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,119 Speaker 1: doesn't think whatever I know. They say, go girl, which 41 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: I would never wear. But this one is cool. And 42 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: you're also you're writing your column column for the New 43 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: York Times and you're doing a new podcast after Yes, Yeah, 44 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: because I'm obsessed with Succession. Why why are you obsessed? 45 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 1: I've been doing stuff with a trio for years around 46 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley and before that, Game of Thrones, and I 47 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: love Succession. I think it's a great show, um I 48 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: and I just I am a fan, and so I 49 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: just I sit around and talk about it with different 50 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: people about what's happened on the show. And you know, 51 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,239 Speaker 1: not that it has anything to do with the Murdochs, 52 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: but you know, I work for them for many years, 53 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: and it's enjoyable to see a fictional version of Uncle Satan. 54 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: So so let's let's talk about the media landscape. Because 55 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: you and I are around the same age. I think 56 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: you're six years younger, giver take something like that. Yeah, 57 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: And as I was saying, when I got into the business, 58 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: when you got into the business, it was extremely different. 59 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: And I'm just curious, as you look at this extremely 60 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: fragmented media landscape, how do you think it's changed sort 61 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: of the nature of our country and the quality of 62 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: discourse that we're able to have Well, you know you 63 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: you were talking about the idea Katie gave us a 64 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: script which none of us are going to follow, but 65 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: nonetheless I love that she does that, Like Nicole and 66 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: I are such quiet and retiring people, and it's like, 67 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: here's the script. Well, I just wanted to give you 68 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: a little like the whole Katie correct production. I called 69 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: Katie just so you know, my nickname for his Katie 70 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: fucking Kirk, because because I want her to be like 71 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: the baddest that I know. She is underneath, like she's 72 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: yes you are, Yes you are. I'm getting there, You're 73 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: getting there. I like that so COMMUNI one of the 74 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: reasons I got to know kid because she was at 75 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: Yahoo and I thought it was a real risk that 76 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: you took. Not many people from the mainstream media moved 77 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: into the areas that you did, and I thought that 78 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: was striking actually at the time, even though it wasn't 79 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: completely successful, that it was directionally correct. We were doing 80 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: exactly what a lot of people are doing on sub 81 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: steck or creating their own media brands or this and that, 82 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: and nobody was doing that then. So I thought that was, 83 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: you know, striking when you did it, and I was. 84 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: I watched it very carefully. I think it was probably 85 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: too early and in the wrong place. Yes, so the 86 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: idea of of a journalist as an entrepreneur, uh and 87 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: some people call it the report entrepreneur, which I hate 88 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: that word, but there it is, um and I think 89 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: it was. I think there is no such thing as 90 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: mass media anymore. There's media that's in silos. There is 91 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, there are networks and things like that. But 92 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: when you joined CBS, it was already declining asset, right like. 93 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: And so it was interesting that that we still focus 94 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: that way as if there's one place people get news 95 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: there it actually is. It's Facebook, um, but it is 96 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: in the most of the world it is, actually And 97 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: so it sort of has fractured and come together. And 98 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: then a lot of these voices using these tech tools, 99 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: which is what I started covering right here in Washington, 100 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: d C. For The Washington Post. I covered a O. 101 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: L Um the beginnings. Even though you sort of become 102 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: a joke now, it wasn't. It was a really important 103 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,799 Speaker 1: moment in in media history, really, and so it's fractured 104 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,799 Speaker 1: come together, and then all these voices that maybe aren't 105 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: quite so accurate have come into the fray and so so, 106 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: and it's ruined the media business itself, the advertising business, um, 107 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: how people pay attention, and so it's a really it's 108 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: it's a very difficult time for media right now. How 109 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: do you see it all shaking out? Do you think 110 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: it's I mean that I get overwhelmed with content, and 111 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: you know, there are not enough hours in the day 112 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: to absorb and reflect on all. And I think some 113 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: fantastic journalism is being absolutely it's just very hard to 114 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: separate the week from the chaff. Well, it's a little 115 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: like TV, right that's sort of disintermediated rather substantively. There's 116 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: all these things. It's a lot of competition. That's why 117 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: you're getting some really getting a lot of stuff, and 118 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: then you're getting a lot of really good stuff. Same 119 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: thing with media. It's disintermediated. And what part of me 120 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: likes it. Like when you were starting out there were 121 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: three networks ruined mostly by white straight men, right, who 122 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: all lived on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, and 123 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: they got to the side things. Same thing with the 124 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: New York Times, same thing here with the Washington Post. 125 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: And so I like the idea of it being pushed outward, 126 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: so that lots of people can contribute, but what's happened 127 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: is a lot of these tools have taken over that 128 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: allow malevolent players to join the fray and start to 129 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: mess up the whole information ecosystem. And so people live 130 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: on a low, low nutrition information diet. So many and 131 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: they already did, but now they're they're getting They already 132 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: didn't have good information. Now they're getting really bad sort 133 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: of sugary, uh, bad for your self information which they 134 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: are now protecting as if it's the right information, is 135 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: the correct information, and then they defend it. I feel 136 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: like we have to obviously, and you actually made a 137 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: joke about this, we have to talk about Facebook because 138 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: it's been in the crosshairs. I know you're dying to 139 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: cover other things, but you just simply can't. I didn't 140 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: interview at a Vanity Fair summit seventeen with Cheryl Samberg. 141 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: Wait it was two thousand nineteen, I'm sorry, with Cheryl Samberg. Um, 142 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: and she got quite testy and it became really a 143 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: little bit tense. But you had interviewed I think Mark 144 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg a year prior to that and made a lot 145 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: of news with that interview. Um, what are your impressions 146 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: of Mark Zuckerberg today. Well, it's been a journey, you know, 147 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: one of the time working actually in a memoir Silicon 148 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: Valley right now. That and I was recalling when I 149 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: first met him, And the first thing you ever said 150 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: to me is I heard you think I'm an asshole? UM? 151 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: And I said, I you maybe, UM, I don't know. Uh, 152 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: He's not an asshole. Let me just say after all 153 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: these years, UM, But what's happened? You know? That was 154 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: a great interview, by the way, Katie, you should watch 155 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: it if it's available, because Cheryl is very smooth, and 156 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: it was brought in to be the adult in the room. 157 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: They always do that as but the man is thirty 158 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: four years old. He doesn't need this sort of the 159 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: juvenilization of these tech people is comical in some ways. 160 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: He's got children, etcetera, etcetera. But she was brought in 161 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: to be the adult. Um. And so you pushed her 162 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: very hard on the issues that I had started talking about. 163 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: Because the relationship I developed Maria Ressa, who has just 164 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 1: won the Nobel Peace Prize, she started bringing me data, 165 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: tons of data about what was Facebook was doing to 166 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: her and other activists and journalists in the Philippines used 167 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: the government using it for propaganda, and so when you 168 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: were pushing back on her, this was the first time 169 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 1: you started to see real widespread questioning of what how 170 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: they were running the show over there, which was not 171 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: well um and even though they've gotten fabulously wealthy, even 172 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: though they were very powerful and stuff like that. So 173 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: it was a critical interview that you did with her 174 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: because she was expecting sort of a hey Katie girl, 175 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: you know that kind of thing going on, and you 176 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: did not deliver that. And I was thrilled. I think 177 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 1: I texted you like thank you. She was not. I 178 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: didn't really talked like I didn't talked to her since 179 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: that interview that I haven't talked to her for many years, 180 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: even though I knew her really well. But same thing 181 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: with Mark. You know that interview I did with her 182 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: the year before was with him the year before. It's 183 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: when he said to me we were talking about Alex Jones, 184 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: and I'm like, you're kicking him off the platform. He's 185 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: breaking every one of your rules. Don't you who's running 186 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: the show here if you're not going to do this, 187 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: And he started to do this sort of first Amendment stuff, 188 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: and someone who I went finished college. He did not. 189 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: I understood what the first Amendment was. He does not, 190 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: and and so but I let him go on. I 191 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: let him go on, and he nothing. By the way, 192 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: if you don't want to go to college, that's great, 193 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: it's whatever choice you make. But don't like make it 194 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: as if it's a good thing good to be uneducated, 195 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: right like, or not to know what you're talking about. 196 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: So he um uh. So he started to about Alice Jones, 197 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: and I was like, you're going to kick him off. 198 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: He's like violating every one of your so called rules 199 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: here on this platform. And uh. He goes, well, let's 200 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: shift to the Holocaust. And I'm like, oh no, no, 201 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: don't do that. But okay, sure, let's see where this goes. 202 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: And he was sort of trying to set himself up, 203 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: saying that he, even as a Jewish person, tolerates Holocaust deniers. 204 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: And he said something that was that got a lot 205 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: of news what you were talking about, which you said, 206 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, Holocaust deniers don't mean to lie. And I 207 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: just sat there like, huh like, and of course it 208 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: was I learned a lot of interviewing from you. I 209 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: just like the Palin interview was so brilliant, um, where 210 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: I just was like, oh, they don't huh, that's kind 211 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: of the definition of a Holocaust denier. But okay, UM, 212 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: tell me more, and which is you you use too 213 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: much effect? And so he started talking about this and 214 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: sort of ran himself right into the wall essentially, and 215 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: since then, um, he's continued to do so, I think. 216 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: Oh and as you can see from these documents from 217 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: Francis Howgan, we'll talk about those documents right after this. 218 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: Let's talk about those documents more than what ten thousand 219 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: pages more to come, yeah, and more to come. What 220 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: do you think we're some of the most damning things 221 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: that those documents show, because there are a lot of 222 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: damning things, but what we're sort of the top three 223 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: things I'll tell you with the media focus on was 224 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: Team Girls, although I didn't I know, I didn't think 225 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: that was the most important things, even though it is important. 226 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: I have teenagers, um, and I understand their teenage boys, 227 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: but uh, and I have a daughter now who's two, UM, 228 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: and I think about it a lot. But I think 229 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that was most important was the 230 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: thing that Maria was talking about is how Facebook impacts 231 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: the rest of the world, and how sloppy they are 232 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: in terms of monitoring their platform from elevolent players. And 233 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: it's one of these things I didn't interview with Mark 234 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: Bennie off set of Salesforce. He compared them to cigarette companies. 235 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: I don't think they're quite down that evil highway. There's 236 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: not a memo that goes, hey, we know it's a mess, 237 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: but let's let's throw them anyway, let's kill them anyway. 238 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: So I think what they're doing is they're showing a 239 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: company that has no grasp of what they're they've created, 240 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: except that they have enormous impact everywhere around the world, 241 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, election misinformation or anti vaccine anti 242 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: vaccination information if you want to call it that um 243 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: or whatever whatever it happens to be, wherever it is 244 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: around the world. This is a platform that's proliferated like 245 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, mold, I don't know what to call it, 246 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: but it's everywhere, It's everywhere, all around you, and they're 247 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: not monitoring it correctly, nor do they have an idea 248 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: of what to do. And so what do they do 249 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: They rebrand? Why not? Yes, I will save about the 250 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: rebranding mess book. Meta is now the name of Facebook, 251 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: I call it, but go ahead, seta has it's a 252 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: better tasting. So so this is I'm cute. This is 253 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: a really a fascinating thing because this was just announced 254 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: by Mark Zuckerberg and um, First of all, what do 255 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: you think was the goal of rebranding? But also what 256 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: is the meta verse that Facebook is trying to create 257 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: and why are they trying to do it? The metaverse 258 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: is an old idea. This is you know, you've seen 259 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: it in all these movies. You've seen the Matrix anything, 260 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: You've seen Lots and lot Tron. There's all kinds of ideas. 261 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: Which is ready player one? It started with snow Crash 262 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: Neil Stevenson. Um, it's the idea that you live in 263 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: the physical and digital worlds combined singularity. Right now, that's 264 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: becoming a machine. Okaytie, try to keep up. I'm sorry. 265 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: That's how you put a chip in your brain, like 266 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: Ellen is working on Elon Might and then your what's 267 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: his name? What the ray guy who's hurt? Yeah, I'm 268 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: seeing you. Like, so that's the machines in us coming together. 269 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: This is living and a living you live like he 270 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: showed off a really creepy video. I don't know if 271 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: you saw it, because Marcus specialized and creepy videos. Um. 272 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: And he you know, he's playing cards with his friends 273 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: and fencing. He's fencing, he's doing It's this idea that 274 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: you'll escape into this world and then move back and 275 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: forth between your physical It's an old idea. It's it's 276 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 1: an old and interesting idea. Now the matter will be 277 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: created by lots of companies. Facebook is making a massive 278 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: land grab to take over. They bought Oculus. They've got 279 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: a lot of very smart purchase back then. But one 280 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: of the problems he has is that he's losing young people. Uh, 281 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, teens. If you talk to any teen, they 282 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: will not go near Facebook essentially, and so and even 283 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: Instagram is losing young it is, yes, it is. And 284 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: so one of the problems that he has he's got 285 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: to stay relevant. He also can't buy things because the 286 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: government finally is perking up its ears and going, maybe 287 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: we should possibly do our job and regulate this industry. 288 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: So so this is really a business play, isn't it. Yes, No, 289 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a lot of things he's got, He's 290 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: got to move in another direction. He's like, he's got 291 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: a pivot. Well, yeah, so what he's got a dumpster 292 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: fire and he's like paying attention to that. I'm going 293 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: to go over here to the metaverse where we're going 294 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: to change my costume ten times. It's fine, we're gonna 295 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: do it. You're gonna wear glasses and someday but you'll 296 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: all be dead, so it won't matter so for you, 297 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: but the kids, the kids will love it. But do 298 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: you think I'm sure the kids will love it? By 299 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: the way, really, now, well, what about this document dump? 300 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: Do you think this is? You know, I know earlier 301 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: this month you said it's not going to change anything. Um, 302 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: and now I feel like you've moved into the direction of, hey, 303 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: maybe this is the last straw. Maybe the government, as 304 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: you here said, we'll do it straw. Here's why I 305 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: just interted Ken Buck, who's from Colorado. He worked with 306 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: David Cicillini. This is a conservative from Colorado who who 307 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: is very conservative working with a gay Democrat from Rhode 308 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: Island to bring legislation together. That doesn't happen often. I mean, 309 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: they can't decide on lunch. Congress can't do that, and 310 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: so they are working together in a bipartisan way that 311 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: is mostly helpful, and they're they're putting up bill. Senator 312 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: Clobuchar's one them. Um, there's a whole bunch of them. 313 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: But it's actually quite bipartisan. And that's what's great about it. Um, 314 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: we'll see if it gets anywhere, because they don't look, 315 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: they can't seem to do anything anymore. And the level 316 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: of partisanship is so high, and in this case it 317 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: isn't people do recognize powers the problem power of all tech, 318 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: not just Facebook but others companies, and that part of 319 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: it is to have more competition, right, I mean, I think, 320 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: isn't that what any Klovi petition will serve a lot? 321 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: Same thing with ken Buck And I think you know, 322 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: every now and then Ted Cruz lobs in an idiotic comment, 323 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: but otherwise it's just his job. I think, Um, you know, 324 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: tweet some it's a big tweeter. It's such a bad 325 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: he's such a bad tweeter. More from Kara Swisher and 326 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: my book tour right after this, How do you think 327 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: the media can earn trust again from people who are 328 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: consuming it? Or do think that just doesn't apply because 329 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: it's so well fractured. Did they trust the media before? 330 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: That's the that's a bigger question. I think levels of 331 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: trust among the press historically have been very low. I 332 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: just think they had that Watergate moment. I mean, look 333 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: at the pushback you've gotten for the Ruth Bader Ginsburg. 334 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: We talked about it on Sway, UM. You know that people. 335 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: It played into a narrative that you're the fixes in 336 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: among the Libs to protect this and that I think 337 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: in that case you can talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 338 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: I mean that was something that I wanted to write 339 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 1: about because I personally admired Justice Ginsburg a great deal 340 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: and everything that she had done for equality. Um. And 341 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: and when I asked her about Colin Kaepernick, she had 342 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: some very harsh words. She said, people who kneel during 343 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: the national anthem are dumb and arrogant and dumb and 344 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: disrespectful and and she used were stupid and arrogant. And 345 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: it was sort of surprising to me. I went back 346 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 1: and her office called and said she misunderstood the question, 347 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: she wasn't really following the story that carefully, and then 348 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: she made some other off handed comment about it being 349 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: contempt for a government, and that these people are much 350 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: better off here than the countries they came from. I 351 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: ended up using two minutes of her answer. She had 352 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 1: to issue a statement saying she misspoke, her words were 353 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: unnecessarily harsh and dismissive, but that one piece I thought 354 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,959 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure what she was saying. I bristled, and 355 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: I think I raised that in the book because I 356 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: think it was a mistake that I should have included it, 357 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: and that I let some of my personal um, you know, 358 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: my my admiration for her getting the way of my judgment. 359 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: And I thought that it would be actually helpful to 360 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: be transparent because journalists make these editorial decisions every day. 361 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: I've talked to many journalists through the years who have 362 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: made sort of decisions that they're not at all the 363 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: coverage of John Kennedy, that they're not totally comfortable with 364 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 1: UM and and that's why I chose to include it. 365 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: And I still think that transparency is really helpful when 366 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: it comes to trusting the media. And I was on 367 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: Stephen Colbert the other night and I said, you know, 368 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: if if some of these organizations admitted that journalists are 369 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: human beings and they sometimes don't make the right decisions, 370 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: like if NBC said it was a mistake for us 371 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 1: to sit on these Access Hollywood tapes so that the 372 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: Washington Post had to break it, or that CNN said 373 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 1: we shouldn't have allowed Chris Cuomo to yuck it up 374 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: with his governor brother with a giant Q tip at 375 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: the height of the pandemic and then not say a 376 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: word about sexual harassment allegations and you know, or that 377 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: CBS shouldn't have handed nd A s out like Halloween 378 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: candy that pushed out talented women and kept sexual harassm 379 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: is employed. So I think that admitting sometimes when you 380 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: make bad decisions is being transparent would actually increase trust. 381 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: But maybe I'm wrong. No, I don't think so at all. 382 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I have a very different career than years 383 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: in that way. And then I'm always like, that's an idiot, 384 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, and they're like you you have to be 385 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: you can't be biased. I'm like, oh, I'm biased, that's right. 386 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,479 Speaker 1: Like I'm a person, Like what do you think I'm 387 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: not affected by the world. I have children, i have 388 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: a life, I've got you know, I'm gay, Like I 389 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: have opinions and I think One of the things we 390 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: did at All Things D and later at RICO was 391 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: we have like multi page disclosures and then we we 392 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: trust the audience. We don't hide from them. We don't 393 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: hide from them, because I think that was the thing, 394 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: is keeping yourself apart from audiences. You can't do that 395 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: anymore as a journalist, can you. You just have to 396 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: be really close and you have to be okay with 397 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: Like you were just talking about it. You didn't like disagreement. 398 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 1: You want everyone to like you. I luckily started out 399 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: life wanting everyone to dislike me, and therefore everything is 400 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 1: uphill from here. Um uh. And so it frees you 401 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: if you think like that. And it doesn't mean not 402 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 1: doing reporting, by the way, No it doesn't. But on 403 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: the other hand, I do think that media has become 404 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: so bifurcated and it's either you know, CNN or Fox, CNN, 405 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: MSNBC or Fox. And I think there is a craving 406 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: for people to hear news and information in an unbiased 407 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: way that's not commentary, that allows them to take it 408 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: in and make their own opinions. Except except you have 409 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: these these new information environments with like the big lie 410 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: thing look at all right. I agree with dretzeling themselves 411 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 1: not to say what the truth is that the election was. Yes, 412 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: well they just or else they just sit there like 413 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: because if they're you're asking if they're wearing pantyhose. I 414 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: don't know what they're like. Oh, no, I cannot say 415 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: this thing because Donald Trump will somehow tweet again. No, 416 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,719 Speaker 1: I's not got to tweet. He's off Twitter and by 417 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: the way, for the rest of his life. And I 418 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: totally agree with you because I think it it is 419 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: really challenging to be objective. You know, first of all, 420 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: that's that's that's a very um, I think, fraught word. 421 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: But it's very hard to be objective when it's not 422 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: left right but it's right wrong. And when somebody is 423 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: perpetrating a lie and you feel like you have to 424 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: call that out. That makes people automatically think you're on 425 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: one side when you're actually just trying to tell the truth. Yes, 426 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: but that's what that group of malevolent players is trying 427 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: to do. Their gaming the system, and they do it 428 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: either through you know, Facebook memes or or all over 429 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: the internet. They do it all over the place, and 430 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: and they're playing that game in meanwhile, you're like going no, no, no, no. 431 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: And so I think one of the things that has 432 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: to happen is there's a whole bunch of people. I think, Um, 433 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: there's a lot of noisy people on either side. Um. 434 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: And they're not equal, by the way, they're not find 435 00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: people on both sides, especially in that particular incident. Um. 436 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: And and there's a lot of people in the center going, 437 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, I care about my kids. The COVID thing, 438 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: why do these scientists like even just around COVID, it 439 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: is confusing. What shot should I take? Do I need 440 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: a shot? Do I need a mess? And so we 441 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: used to be able to have these discussions easily when 442 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 1: it's when there's a noise going on around you, a 443 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: persistent digital noise almost all the time. You live in 444 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: a state of constant fear and worry and too much information. 445 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: So this idea of removing the gatekeepers is an excellent idea, 446 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: except sometimes gatekeepers do matter. Trusted gatekeepers. The question is 447 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: now people pick their trusted based on on on my 448 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: like you know, I talked to you about my mom 449 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,479 Speaker 1: with Fox News, Like, oh my god, I had my 450 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: brother was a doctor and I I'm not a doctor. Um, 451 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: convinced her this is the flu. It's the flu. Sean 452 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: Hannay says, it's the flu. I'm like, Sean Hannity is 453 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: a horse's ass. But let us wait. So your your brother, 454 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: My brother is a doctor, but he he hell's your 455 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: mom the truth? Yes, and you believe Sean Hannity over 456 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: your brother. He's like, oh, I can go out. It's 457 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: just the flu. It's like that. At the beginning. I 458 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: wrote a column about this in The Times, and Sean 459 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: Hannity and Comma horses ass um threatened, assume a good luck, Like, 460 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: come on, it's right up there, fine, you know, And 461 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: so he's rutten to a bunch of people at the Times. Um. 462 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: But about these because Fox News continues now they're doing 463 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: the big live stuff now they're doing this. But it's 464 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: not really a Fox News problem as much as it's 465 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: these The ability to have information anywhere at any time 466 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: without any vetting creates a really noisy information environment. Now. Luckily, 467 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: I think younger people do sort of understand. I don't 468 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,919 Speaker 1: think they're quite as shifted as people who lived in 469 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: the old information environment and moving to the new one. 470 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: They're not as discombobulated. I don't think so. I think 471 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: they pick and choose. Really. I mean, my kids are 472 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: like that, um, And I think that they have a 473 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: sense that not everything is true, nor was it before, 474 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: because again it was picked by certain the stories that 475 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: where you've talked about this in the book a lot. 476 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: You should talk about it because the way you covered 477 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: certain things back when it was Matthew Sheppard or or 478 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,959 Speaker 1: riots or things like that, it was a whole different viewpoint, right, 479 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: what was actually happening, right, And I do talk a 480 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: lot about that about, you know, our our perceptions of 481 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: what it meant to be gay in America. The way 482 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: we covered the Rodney King beating, I talked to the 483 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: white victim and we didn't really talk too much about 484 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: how it was reaction to to the riots were reaction 485 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: to the Rodney King, the the acquittal of those police, 486 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: white police officers. So I think we're really appreciating retrospectively, um, 487 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 1: how we had blind spots in many of these areas. 488 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: Everyone now is a newsperson with their camera, with their phone, 489 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,959 Speaker 1: with their video, and sometimes it works out well and 490 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 1: sometimes it can be decept especially as you can maipulate it. 491 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: And by the way, when you get into this metaverse 492 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: and deep faith. The company that brought you the social 493 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: media mess we have is now want you think about 494 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: what could happen in a metaverse situation a very as 495 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: it surround us. And one of the things I can 496 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: finally says, this pandemic has shown how much we rely 497 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: on these digital tools and to get our information, to 498 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: get our deliveries, to get our to get to work, 499 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: to do education which did not work out really well, 500 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: and our reliance on these companies which are completely may 501 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: I just say Washington completely unregulated. There's zero laws regulating 502 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: the Internet and the one that it does exist is 503 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: in an act and it helps it. It removes liability 504 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: from these something can't be sued and they have no regulation. 505 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: It sounds like a great prescription for disaster um And 506 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: so one of the things that we've shown in the 507 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: pandemic is they've never been richer. They've the ten top 508 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: people in the world are all tech people. The tent 509 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: top companies except for Saudi Aramco, are tech companies. They've 510 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: doubled and tripled their wealth during the pandemic. Lights should 511 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: be going off here in Washington. How do you see 512 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: the two minutes we have how do you see things 513 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: shaking out? What do you if you looked in your 514 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: crystal ball and looked five years from now, how do 515 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: you see the media landscape changing? Will there be a 516 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: network newscast, for example, no network news evening news, and 517 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: so what will our media ecosystem look like. I think 518 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: you'll see a lot of brands, like you're doing with 519 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 1: Katie Kirk Media, you're sort of you're directionally correct again right, 520 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: hopefully not too early, you know, you're just perfect timing um. 521 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: But I think one of the things is that it's 522 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,719 Speaker 1: just there will be new brands built around people and 523 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: trusted people, and you pick and choose among them. There 524 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: will be obviously the big I think news organizations like 525 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: the Washington Post and the New York Times, they're they're 526 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: doing well right now, although everyone's seeing a Trump slump. 527 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: He was correct, And there's also a lot of internal 528 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: debate about how to cover the news at those organizations 529 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: as well, right exactly, so you can see that, and 530 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: I think I think things will settle down. Like the 531 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: beginning of the printing press, the beginning of TV, the 532 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: beginning of radio, all saw a lot of hubbub and 533 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: then it just calmed itself down as people understood. My 534 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: worry is that the people that are running these things 535 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 1: are particularly ill equipped to also deal with societal issues, 536 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: political issues, governmentally, Like it's amazing that in the case, 537 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: let's go back to Mark one person who cannot be fired. 538 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: People don't realize this. He has stock where he cannot 539 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: be fired. He is unaccountable, runs the biggest comedian communications 540 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: company in the world without and he's a very nice guy. 541 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: But honestly, do we really want that to happen? And 542 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: so that's what you have to start thinking about, is 543 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: where can the new innovation common news? Where can the 544 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: new idea of what we're getting stuff? And that was 545 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: my problem at Yahoo because it was a tech company. 546 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: It wasn't a media company. And I told you that, 547 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: yeah you did, and content and and and content wasn't 548 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: sort of in in in the company's d n A. 549 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 1: I don't care if it's Cats or Katie Curic, they 550 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: don't care. No, they didn't care. So that ergo was 551 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: the problem. Like Katie Kirk more than Cats, and they 552 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: both have the word in it. So well, I'm so happy, 553 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: thank you, very journalist. But everybody to her now you 554 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: are Thank you to Kara Swisher. Will link out to 555 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: that interview I did with Cheryl Sandberg back in twenty 556 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: nineteen and the description of this podcast. You can also 557 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: find it in the Next Question feed. The episode is 558 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: called is it Time to Unfriend Facebook? I guess we're 559 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: a little ahead of our time. Next Question with Katie 560 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie 561 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: Kurk Media. The executive producer's Army Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz. 562 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements 563 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: and Adrianna Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by 564 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to 565 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go 566 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: to Katie Correct dot com. You can also find me 567 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: at Katie Correct on Instagram and all my social media channels. 568 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I 569 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to 570 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.