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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 3: We've got somebody abducting women, same victim type, same location,

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Speaker 3: same location, same mo and at that point the police

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Speaker 3: really knew we've got a problem. They were simply tricked.

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Speaker 3: The car tires were deflated, and police said, as an

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Speaker 3: alert to women, do not go with anyone if your

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Speaker 3: car tire is deflated. When you get in, check your car,

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Speaker 3: make sure there's no one in the back seat. Really

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Speaker 3: terrifying sort of things to think about, but that was

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Speaker 3: what happened after these murders occurred.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked, as well as the

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Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on

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Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for

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Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some

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Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all

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Speaker 1: excellent writers. They've had so many great true crime stories,

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Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you those stories with

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Speaker 1: details that have never been published tenfold more Wicked Presents.

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Speaker 1: Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, good

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Speaker 1: and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories behind

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Speaker 1: the stories. South Florida in the nineteen seventies was one

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Speaker 1: of the most dangerous areas of America, and in the

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Speaker 1: mid nineteen seventies, more than a dozen young women were

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Speaker 1: killed and found in canals. These murder cases became known

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Speaker 1: as the Flat Tire Murders and the Canal Murders, and

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Speaker 1: they were terrible. Police floated several theories, one that involved

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Speaker 1: a very famous serial killer who visited Florida. Author Michael

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Speaker 1: Burns wrote the book The Flat Tire Murders. Where did

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Speaker 1: you first hear about this story? What sparked your interest

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Speaker 1: in it?

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Speaker 3: I think originally, well, I think it goes back to

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Speaker 3: actually the Golden State killer, Joseph DeAngelo and twenty eighteen

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Speaker 3: when he was arrested. I had been following the case

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Speaker 3: for a while, and when that happened, I was just

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Speaker 3: stunned that, you know, a case from forty years ago

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Speaker 3: could be solved, and it just kind of blew my mind.

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Speaker 3: And then I just came across I don't know either

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Speaker 3: a Wikipedia or somebody referenced it online and found out

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Speaker 3: about these cases, and nobody had really looked into it.

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Speaker 3: It had a sort of a meager Wikipedia entry, and

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Speaker 3: that was about it. So I started digging right away

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Where are we in time?

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Speaker 3: I'd say one year in the mid nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 1: I know what Texas in the seventies was like, But

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Speaker 1: what was Florida in the seventies?

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Speaker 3: Like, I think it was probably a lot like the

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Speaker 3: rest of the country and sort of how it is now,

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Speaker 3: I think with people moving down there, you know, the

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Speaker 3: snowbirds from up north. The immigrants from Latin America had

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Speaker 3: started in the nineteen sixties and still continued through the seventies,

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Speaker 3: so it was an area sort of in flux. It

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Speaker 3: was probably a lot like Texas in the sense that

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Speaker 3: young people then were I'd say, a lot less cautious

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Speaker 3: about things like hitchhiking or going off with strangers, so

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Speaker 3: more innocent time, i'd say.

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Speaker 2: And hits hiking does play a part in this story.

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Speaker 2: Where do we start.

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Speaker 3: We can start with the crime explosion in Florida in

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Speaker 3: the early nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 1: But the crime explosion I think was happening all over

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Speaker 1: the United States, right, but particularly in Florida.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a crime explosion in the United States

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Speaker 3: in the seventies. I think it finally met its apex

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen eighties there was a big crackdown on crime,

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Speaker 3: and crime since that time has gone down. But in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen seventies Florida was one of the most dangerous

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Speaker 3: states in South Florida had exponential crime, doubling in some situations.

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Speaker 3: So definitely a big increase in crime in the nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventies in South Florida.

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Speaker 1: Are we able to point to anything? Is it cyclical?

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Speaker 1: Is it economic?

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Speaker 3: I think part of it was perhaps based on the economy.

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Speaker 3: I think in the early nineteen seventies there was a

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Speaker 3: recession at that time. Some of the law enforcement thought

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Speaker 3: it was just a situation where you have a large

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Speaker 3: number of people sort of coming in and out of

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Speaker 3: South Florida, sort of a transient lifestyle to live on

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Speaker 3: the beach and to leave, maybe working the tourist industries.

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Speaker 3: So I think probably a lot of it was economic.

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Speaker 3: A lot of it was probably based on the more

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Speaker 3: innocent sixties, probably a more liberal or progressive approach to crime.

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Speaker 3: I think there was definitely a different attitude towards crime

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Speaker 3: in the sixties, which transferred into the seventies with sort

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Speaker 3: of the crime explosion and then a crackdown in the eighties.

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Speaker 3: So I think it was cyclical, if I had to say.

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Speaker 1: So, do you think at this time period women in

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Speaker 1: South Florida felt safe or were they taking any kind

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Speaker 1: of precautions.

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Speaker 3: I think they largely felt safe after Ted Bundy was

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Speaker 3: arrested in Florida in nineteen seventy eight. I think probably

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Speaker 3: that post Bundy era through the late seventies into the

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighties may have been a situation where women were

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Speaker 3: being a lot more careful. But I think in the

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Speaker 3: mid nineteen seventies it was probably just as free as

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Speaker 3: the nineteen sixties, where women felt I think for a

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Speaker 3: large part safe. There was a lot of hitchhiking. There

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Speaker 3: was certainly a free attitude that I think was taken

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Speaker 3: advantage of. The first victim in January of nineteen seventy

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Speaker 3: five was Judith Oasterling, and she was nineteen years old

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Speaker 3: and she had moved to South Florida from Indiana. Sort

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Speaker 3: Of what we were just speaking about a situation where

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Speaker 3: somebody moves to South Florida in an attempt to either

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Speaker 3: reinvent themselves or start a new life. And she was

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Speaker 3: nineteen and she found herself living in Dade County and

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Speaker 3: working south of Miami in a massage parlor.

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Speaker 1: So do we know about her day when she disappears?

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Speaker 1: Do we know anything about what happened?

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Speaker 3: We really don't know much other than she disappeared and

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Speaker 3: her body was found the following day. She did have

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Speaker 3: a roommate, and she lived sort of a quiet life.

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Speaker 3: There was not much known about her other than the

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Speaker 3: fact that she hitchhiked. She would hitchhike to get to work,

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Speaker 3: she would hitchhike to get around town. So she was

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Speaker 3: I think living a very exposed lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: Is she the first one found in a canal?

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Speaker 3: Is that right? She's the first one found in a

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Speaker 3: canal in nineteen seventy five? And initially it wouldn't have

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Speaker 3: been more than a sort of one off case, but

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Speaker 3: there was a series of women found in canals, often

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Speaker 3: very close to one another after that time she was

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Speaker 3: found in January nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 1: Were the canals used by whoever organized crime? Was this

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Speaker 1: sort of a normal dumping ground for people who killed people,

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Speaker 1: not even serial killers.

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Speaker 3: Well yeah, they were and they still remain a dumping

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Speaker 3: ground for things that people want to get rid of,

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Speaker 3: either from bodies to vehicles that were stolen in insurance fraud.

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Speaker 3: They found missiles and airplane parts and canals and sort

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Speaker 3: of anything that people want to get rid of. Weapons, weapons, yes,

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Speaker 3: animal sacrifice. My good bones are found in there. It's

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Speaker 3: really a wild situation.

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Speaker 2: Are there alligators?

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Speaker 3: Yes, there are alligators. There are all kinds of snakes

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Speaker 3: in South Florida does order the Everglades, so you find

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Speaker 3: alligators in backyards and swimming pools and certainly in the canals.

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Speaker 1: So when Judith's body goes into the canal and it

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Speaker 1: is then recovered, do we have any idea about was

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Speaker 1: there sexual assault?

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Speaker 2: Do we know the way she died?

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Speaker 3: We do, and that was discovered due to the diligent

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Speaker 3: work of the police. About in October, ten months after

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Speaker 3: her death, there was a confession that was the result

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Speaker 3: of some interrogation of the woman who owned the massage

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Speaker 3: parlor where Judith worked. Her name was Tiger Sue. That

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Speaker 3: was her nickname. Sue Jane Walter was her name, and

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Speaker 3: She eventually confessed she was a heroin addict, and she

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Speaker 3: confessed under the influence that she and her boyfriend had

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Speaker 3: killed Judith in January of that year after Judith refused

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Speaker 3: to accommodate their sexual advances. The boyfriend, Clarence Carnival, was

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Speaker 3: murdered himself. He was killed in June of nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 3: That kind of case just gives an example of what

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Speaker 3: I think South Florida was like in the nineteen seventies

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Speaker 3: with a massage parlor, a girl from Indiana nineteen years old,

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Speaker 3: this boyfriend who was involved in drugs, who gets murdered,

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Speaker 3: and then this woman, Sue Walters, has left as the

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Speaker 3: last person standing out of all this craziness, and she

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Speaker 3: was eventually sentenced to fifteen years in prison.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're talking about a serial killer, but we're starting

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Speaker 1: with a victim who was not one of his victims.

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Speaker 1: But it seems to have sparked and the public. So

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Speaker 1: when the real victim of the serial killer goes into

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Speaker 1: the canal, this is what sparks the fear that this

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Speaker 1: is a serial killer?

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Right? And I think really once the bodies start accumulating

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Speaker 3: on sort of a weekly or a monthly basis. Law

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Speaker 3: enforcement takes note, the public takes note that something is

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Speaker 3: happening to women. I don't even think the idea of

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Speaker 3: a serial killer was brought up in the papers at

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Speaker 3: that time, but certainly that this was a series of incidents.

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Speaker 3: They even gave them the name of the canal murders.

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Speaker 3: Women were interviewed. Some young girls were scared they were

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Speaker 3: going to end up in the canals, or that they

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Speaker 3: had met the canal murderer. So it definitely became an

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Speaker 3: event in nineteen seventy five in South Florida.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So Judith is killed in January of nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 1: She is one of the women and the girls found

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Speaker 1: in the canals, but her murder is solved. Then we

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Speaker 1: have a series of victims found in the canals before

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Speaker 1: the two murders, and we're calling those the flat tire

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Speaker 1: murders because they have the same pattern.

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Speaker 3: The next series of murders, there is about five I

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Speaker 3: have murders before the flat tire murders occurred. Two of

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Speaker 3: them were fourteen years old, one was nineteen, one was seventeen.

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Speaker 3: Some were shot, some were strangled, some they simply don't

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Speaker 3: know how they ended up in a canal in far

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Speaker 3: western Dayden Brower County where there was really not a lot.

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Speaker 3: It's right on the border of the Everglades. How these

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Speaker 3: women ended up there, especially the ones that we don't

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Speaker 3: know the cause of death, is just quite bizarre. I

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Speaker 3: think a lot of it may go back to Judith

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Speaker 3: Ousterling's case, where she was essentially taken to the canal,

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Speaker 3: got out of the car, they beat her, and they

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Speaker 3: drowned her in the canal. It was an actual drowning,

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Speaker 3: you know, holding someone underwater in a canal, which is

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Speaker 3: just an awful thing to imagine. But I think that

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Speaker 3: occurred in some of these cases.

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Speaker 1: So we are in a situation right now in seventy

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Speaker 1: five where you've got Judith who was killed in a canal,

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Speaker 1: you've got a series of young girls. Are these young

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Speaker 1: girls all from the same type of socioeconomic background.

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Speaker 3: They were typical middle class girls. Several of them were

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Speaker 3: fourteen years old, middle school and high school students. One

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Speaker 3: of them, Areata Tinker, was seventeen years old. She was married,

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Speaker 3: she had a child, but none of them were involved

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Speaker 3: in drugs or sex work or anything that would put

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Speaker 3: a woman in a more vulnerable situation. A lot of

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Speaker 3: them did hitchhike, and that was emphasized by law enforcement

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Speaker 3: as a real problem and a real vulnerability for women.

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Speaker 1: And none of them knew each other. There's no connection

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Speaker 1: with schools or churches or anything.

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Speaker 3: No. Only two of them, Barbara Streiver and Darlene Zetterauer,

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Speaker 3: were both shot to death, and they were fourteen years old.

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Speaker 3: They were best friends. But other than that, no, no connections.

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Speaker 2: Is there a connection with sexual assault?

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Speaker 3: Some they thought may have been sexually assaulted, some were not.

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Speaker 3: Some were found fully clothed with no evidence of sexual assault.

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Speaker 3: So it really varied.

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Speaker 2: Did they collect swabs?

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Speaker 3: They did, and I got the medical reports for three

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Speaker 3: of the victims, and one of them they did find

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Speaker 3: what I interpret as biological evidence. Whether that was preserved,

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Speaker 3: we don't know. I'm still waiting for the actual police

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Speaker 3: files to be produced. I requested them, oh a year

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Speaker 3: and a half ago. I still have received them, So

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Speaker 3: we'll see what those have to say. But I'm kind

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Speaker 3: of confident that I think there is DNA evidence available.

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Speaker 1: So let's get to the cases that police say are

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Speaker 1: definitely connected. This killer is unidentified, and these two cases

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Speaker 1: together were calling the flat tire killer cases.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Who is the first victim?

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Speaker 3: Ronnie Gorlind. She is the first flat tire victim. She's

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Speaker 3: twenty seven years old, she's engaged to be married. Her

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Speaker 3: parents are originally from Hallendale, and she comes down to

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Speaker 3: visit her mother. She decides to go to the one

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Speaker 3: hundred and sixty third Street shopping center in North Miami,

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Speaker 3: and she disappears and she's found the next day dead

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Speaker 3: in a canal with sort of severe injuries. And her

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Speaker 3: car is found at one hundred and sixty third Street

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Speaker 3: mall with a flat tire. And what's presumed is that

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Speaker 3: her tire was deflated. Somebody came along, offered her help

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Speaker 3: and abducted her.

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Speaker 1: At that point, it just happened to be deflated or

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Speaker 1: someone deflated it for her.

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Speaker 3: It's most likely that it was deflated by the person

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Speaker 3: who abducted her. That's what law enforcement believes.

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Speaker 1: So this is the seventies, So no CCTV or anything

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Speaker 1: like that, no cameras.

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Speaker 3: No, And when police went there, attempting to create a

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Speaker 3: composite talk to people who may have seen the victim

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Speaker 3: with any men, and there were some references to a composite,

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Speaker 3: which is why I'm interested in getting these police files

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Speaker 3: if they're ever produced, to see exactly what was put together. Yet,

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Speaker 3: they didn't have CCTV, they didn't have any smartphones or anything.

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Speaker 3: It was basically trying to interview people who may have

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Speaker 3: been there that saw the abduction.

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Speaker 2: And you said this as nighttime.

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Speaker 3: Ronnie Gorlin was in the afternoon.

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Speaker 2: So what was the reaction.

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Speaker 1: Did you get to speak to any of Ronnie's family

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Speaker 1: about any of this?

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Speaker 3: No? Family members that I reached out to, I really

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Speaker 3: didn't get much of a response, and I respected that.

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Speaker 3: The people that I did speak with were the three

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Speaker 3: detectives that worked on the flat tire murders cases. They're

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Speaker 3: identify fight in the book, and I discussed my interactions

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Speaker 3: with them and their suspect that they still this they

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Speaker 3: feel is the one who did it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Ronnie, do we know a cause of death?

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Speaker 3: Yes? She had been choked and drowned in the canal,

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Speaker 3: and this canal was at one hundred and thirty eighth

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Speaker 3: Street in Miami. There were also biite marks noted on

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Speaker 3: her breasts, which led to police later on looking at

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Speaker 3: a number of different suspects based upon that evidence. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: she was choked, drowned and left in the canal.

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Speaker 1: White marks sound like Ted Bundy to me, and he

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Speaker 1: was still alive during this time period. Did they think

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Speaker 1: about Bundy at all for this case.

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Speaker 3: Well, in nineteen seventy five, nobody really knew Bundy outside

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Speaker 3: of maybe a few detectives in Utah and Washington. But

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Speaker 3: he wasn't the Ted Bundy that we know of now.

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Speaker 3: But later on in nineteen seventy eight, actually, when Bundy

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Speaker 3: was arrested in Florida, these detectives immediately put two and

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Speaker 3: two together and said, we got to talk to this guy.

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Speaker 3: We've got to figure out if this Bundy that we

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Speaker 3: just arrested for the Kyomega murders is the same guy

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Speaker 3: who may have been here in nineteen seventy five. And

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Speaker 3: the bitemark evidence did not seem to indicate whether Bundy

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Speaker 3: was involved. I can't say conclusively one way or the other,

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Speaker 3: but the detectives to this day still feel that Ted

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Speaker 3: Bundy was the one who committed these crimes. The question

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Speaker 3: is can Bundy be placed in South Florida. In July

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Speaker 3: of nineteen seventy five, I spoke with Kevin Sullivan who's

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Speaker 3: written a number of Bundy books that are really good.

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Speaker 3: He doesn't think it's possible. The detectives do think it's possible.

303
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Speaker 3: I'm sort of in the middle where it could have happened.

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Speaker 3: I'd like to see some solid evidence of him being there.

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Speaker 3: But what a lot of people don't know about Bundy

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Speaker 3: was he had visited Miami in nineteen sixty eight as

307
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Speaker 3: a delegate to the Republican Convention, which was held in

308
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Speaker 3: Miami Beach, and that was his first trip to Miami.

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Speaker 3: He was twenty two years old, so he had been

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Speaker 3: there before his trial in nineteen seventy nine for the

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Speaker 3: Coyomega murders was in Miami after a change of venue.

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Speaker 3: So the detectives from the flat tire murders case, one

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Speaker 3: of them went to Bundy's jail cell in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 3: nine and said, I want to talk to you about

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Speaker 3: these flat tire murders cases. And his reaction action was,

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Speaker 3: according to the detective, like he knew what he was

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Speaker 3: talking about. And he said after the Kimberly Leech trial,

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Speaker 3: I'll talk to you. And after that trial happened, he

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Speaker 3: was convicted. He never spoke to the detective.

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Speaker 1: Again, that's interesting. Well, okay, so things about Ted Bundy.

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Speaker 1: He was very manipulative. The last book I did was

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Speaker 1: all about forensics, and bite mark analysis is total junk science.

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Speaker 1: He was caught with bite marks, that's why they were

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Speaker 1: able to arrest him, but it's solely inaccurate, and.

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Speaker 3: I think Bundy's presence in South Florida is whether he

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Speaker 3: could possibly have been there during that time. I do

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Speaker 3: note in the book that there's a pause in his killing.

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Speaker 3: The last murder he committed in Utah was June thirtieth

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Speaker 3: of nineteen seventy five. He was arrested in Utah August

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Speaker 3: sixteenth of seventy five, So you have about a month

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Speaker 3: and a half gap where he's not actively killing anybody,

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Speaker 3: and that could potentially allow him to get somewhere like

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Speaker 3: South Florida. Whether that happened, I don't know. Like I said,

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Speaker 3: I still don't know if there's any evidence that would

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Speaker 3: place him there. But yes, going back to the bite marks,

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Speaker 3: he was convicted on bite marks. He was convicted on evidence.

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Speaker 3: I believe there was a hypnosis that was used and

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Speaker 3: was later thrown out by I think the Florida Supreme

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Speaker 3: Court that said, you can't use this, it's unreliable. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: a lot of his I think post conviction appeals were

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Speaker 3: quite interesting in that he raised a lot of challenges

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Speaker 3: to the evidence that was used to convict him. Of course,

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Speaker 3: it was the best they had at the time, and

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Speaker 3: he certainly was guilty and ultimately confessed, But at the time, yeah,

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Speaker 3: there was no DNA. There was blood pattern, blood types,

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Speaker 3: and fabric typing and matching I think was used in

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Speaker 3: the Kimberly Leech case, but that's all they had.

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Speaker 1: Let's get back to Ronnie. So now Ronnie is after

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Speaker 1: Judith in January. She is after the series of young

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Speaker 1: women who are found in the canal, But Ronnie is

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Speaker 1: a standalone as of right now?

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Right? She was murdered on July twenty second of nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy five, so sort of right. In the summer of

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy five, after I think about five or six

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Speaker 3: victims were found in canals, including the two to fourteen

357
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Speaker 3: year old girls Barbara Schreiber and Darlene zetter Hour that

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Speaker 3: were found murdered. There was also Robin Loach, who was

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Speaker 3: fourteen years old who was found drowned in a canal

360
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Speaker 3: on July tenth of nineteen seventy five. So really young

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Speaker 3: girls all being found in canals, drowned, shot, We don't

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Speaker 3: know cause of death, but certainly something was happening. And

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Speaker 3: when Ronnie's abduction and death occurred, I think that certainly

364
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Speaker 3: shook people that hey, something is going on here, somebody's

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Speaker 3: doing this. This is not an accident.

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Speaker 1: So we've gone from someone disappearing from a massage parlor

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Speaker 1: to young women disappearing, to someone being clearly abducted. These

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Speaker 1: other people could have been lured, but Ronnie was clearly abducted.

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Speaker 1: Who was the next person after Ronnie?

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Speaker 3: Well, a week later, Elise Rat who is twenty one

371
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Speaker 3: years old, abducted also from the one hundred and sixty

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Speaker 3: third Street mall, and her car was found with a

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Speaker 3: flat tire. She was found in the same canal as

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Speaker 3: Ronnie Gorland. So we're talking about a one week difference.

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Speaker 3: And this wasn't an abduction of a hitchhiker. It wasn't

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Speaker 3: an abduction of a fourteen year old girl. They were

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Speaker 3: both in their twenties, educated girls, they had families, They

378
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Speaker 3: were not drug users or any kind of vulnerability. They

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Speaker 3: were simply tricked. The car tires were deflated, and police said,

380
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Speaker 3: as an alert to women, do not go with anyone

381
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Speaker 3: if your car tire is deflated. When you get in,

382
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Speaker 3: check your car, make sure there's no one in the

383
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,320
Speaker 3: back seat. Really terrifying sort of things to think about,

384
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Speaker 3: but that was what happened after these murders occurred.

385
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Speaker 1: It's so difficult to think you're at night, potentially by yourself,

386
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Speaker 1: you're a woman, it's in the seventies, there's no cell phone,

387
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Speaker 1: and you come out and your tire is deflated, and

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Speaker 1: then what do you do? There's a nice looking person

389
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Speaker 1: there who is willing to help. I still find it

390
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Speaker 1: hard to believe that anybody would get into a stranger's

391
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Speaker 1: car and drive off, but I know that in the

392
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Speaker 1: seventies that was just a reality if you wanted to

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Speaker 1: be safe.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of the lesser of two evils.

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Speaker 1: Do I stand here by myself trying to find a

396
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Speaker 1: pay phone, you know, and hoping somebody's going to help me,

397
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Speaker 1: or do I go with someone who seems okay? I mean,

398
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Speaker 1: is that the right assessment to you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? And what's really I think crazy from my research

400
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,840
Speaker 3: into this subject was the teenage girls were hitchhiking, and

401
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,120
Speaker 3: it was sort of frowned upon and the police said,

402
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,119
Speaker 3: you know, you really shouldn't do it. But just the

403
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,760
Speaker 3: fact that fourteen year old girls would be standing on

404
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 3: the side of a highway or a road with the

405
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 3: thumbs out hoping to get in a car with a stranger.

406
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,439
Speaker 3: Back then, it was something that was very common. It

407
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,199
Speaker 3: was just a way to get around. And there were

408
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,719
Speaker 3: interviews with girls and they asked, why do you hitchhike? Well,

409
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,440
Speaker 3: I it's a way to get around. I can handle myself.

410
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,879
Speaker 3: If I see somebody that I don't think is trustworthy,

411
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,119
Speaker 3: I don't get in. But what happened in the flat

412
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 3: tire cases were premeditated, really sinister situations at a mall,

413
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Speaker 3: like you said, in the dark or in the afternoon,

414
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,639
Speaker 3: where somebody nice looking comes along and says, yeah, I

415
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 3: see you got a flat tire. I'll I'll help you.

416
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,639
Speaker 3: I'll take you to the service station, or get in

417
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Speaker 3: my car. I'll go fix it, get some help. But

418
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 3: it was before Bundy, it was before really we knew

419
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Speaker 3: that there were sinister, serious serial killers out there who.

420
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Speaker 1: Looked normal, who did not look like Charles Manson, right,

421
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,840
Speaker 1: somebody who you thought you could spot, and then came

422
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:19,959
Speaker 1: along Ted Mundy and really changed that for a lot

423
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,200
Speaker 1: of Americans. Tell me how far apart these canals were

424
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Speaker 1: where Judith was found and where the young ladies were

425
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 1: found versus where Ronnie and Elise were found far apart?

426
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Speaker 3: Long drive, No, I'd say twenty minutes, and that's based

427
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 3: upon the current traffic in Miami. When I went back

428
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 3: to South Florida to visit my family a couple months ago,

429
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,159
Speaker 3: I deliberately set out to go see these canals to

430
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Speaker 3: see where they're located. They're within about twenty minutes. The

431
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 3: canal next to US twenty seven is to this day

432
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 3: very desolate and isolated, just next to some sugarcane fields

433
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,880
Speaker 3: and some airboats and you know, part of the Everglades.

434
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,919
Speaker 3: The canals where Ronnie Gorland and Elise Wrapp were found

435
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 3: were in a more urban slash suburban. They're next to

436
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 3: a city in South Florida known as Medley, and it's

437
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,120
Speaker 3: an industrial city with a lot of trucks, trucks going

438
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 3: in and out of that area. And I found it

439
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,680
Speaker 3: somewhat interesting the city of Medley was right next to

440
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 3: where these bodies were found. Could there have been a

441
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,040
Speaker 3: truck driver passing through? Again, these cases were never solved,

442
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 3: so you get the idea that maybe this person or

443
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,200
Speaker 3: person's moved on and got out of the area. Going

444
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,879
Speaker 3: to visit the canals, I stood next to where Ronnie

445
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 3: Gorland and at least Wrap were found, and it's just

446
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 3: a peaceful canal out next to a street in Dade County,

447
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,199
Speaker 3: and the canal out by US twenty seven is just

448
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 3: very isolated. I can imagine what it was like forty

449
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,120
Speaker 3: five years ago, completely in the middle of nowhere.

450
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 1: I was just writing about this, about visiting how important

451
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: it is to visit locations for authors to be able

452
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 1: to build that world. And obviously you feel the same

453
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: way I do. You just have to be there.

454
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 2: How do you explain that?

455
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,919
Speaker 1: How important is it to you to stand at the

456
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 1: place where one or two of the victims have been found.

457
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 3: I think it's very important. And that was one of

458
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 3: the problems when I wrote the book was during twenty

459
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 3: twenty when getting there from California was going to be

460
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 3: a problem. So finally, earlier this year I was able

461
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 3: to get out there and get it done. But it

462
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 3: was something I had wanted to do since day one

463
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 3: to actually see the locations, to get a feel for

464
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 3: where these crimes occurred. And like I said, I wouldn't

465
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 3: have put two and two together with the city of

466
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 3: Medley unless I was standing at that canal noticing all

467
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 3: the trucks going by, and I thought, wait a minute,

468
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 3: that's the city right over there. It's a big urban

469
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 3: trucking area. So sometimes you just have to be there.

470
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: I think, are these areas that locals would need to

471
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: know or could a truck driver know precisely where to go?

472
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 2: You said a couple were isolated, right, Yeah.

473
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 3: The canal next to US twenty seven, where a number

474
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 3: of these victims were found, is really isolated. And when

475
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 3: I drove down there, I realized, the only reason you're

476
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 3: driving on this road is either to get north into

477
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 3: Central Florida or to come down from Central Florida into

478
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 3: South Florida. There's really no other reason to be out there.

479
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 3: So this could have been somebody who decided this is

480
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 3: a remote area. It could have been somebody that was

481
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 3: a trucker that was on his way up to Central

482
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 3: Florida and decided this is a good place. I think

483
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 3: that this was selected by a local by someone who

484
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 3: knew the area as a convenient, out of the way

485
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 3: location to dump these bodies. And in nineteen seventy seven

486
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 3: there was a case where a man abducted a young

487
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 3: girl and took her right up to the canal on

488
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 3: US twenty seven. Thankfully he was caught in the act

489
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 3: by state trooper. But I think the killer of these

490
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 3: girls deliberately chose these areas. I think they knew the areas.

491
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 1: So does anything happen after the murder of Elise is

492
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: at the end of these two that.

493
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 2: Seemed really tightly connected.

494
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,120
Speaker 3: After Elease wrap in the summer of nineteen seventy five,

495
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 3: there were a number of other victims I identified four

496
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 3: after Elise rap That would be Marlene Annabelly who was

497
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 3: twenty six, Mary Coppola who was fifteen, Michelle Winters who

498
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 3: was seventeen, and another possible victim, Annie Mims, who was

499
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: thirty one. But these were other canal victims. They weren't

500
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 3: flat tire. That ruse was not used again only on

501
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 3: those two victims, but the bodies continued to be found

502
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 3: in canals, And like I said, Mary Coppola was fifteen,

503
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 3: Michelle Winters was seventeen. These were very young girls, and

504
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: I was kind of shocked that it didn't get front

505
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 3: page attention. It was mentioned, and there were discussions about

506
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 3: these cases, but my goodness, fourteen year old girls, fifteen

507
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 3: year old girls, seventeen, these are teenage high school students.

508
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 3: It's really just shocked me and kind of outraged me

509
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 3: that these girls were so young.

510
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: Were these of every race and socioeconomic background or one

511
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: in particular.

512
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 3: They were all white females. What's interesting about the two

513
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 3: flat tire murders is that they were both Jewish, Ronnie

514
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 3: Gorilin and Elise rap Whether that makes a difference or not,

515
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 3: who knows. They also both had E license plates, which

516
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 3: were license plates from the state of Florida that denoted

517
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 3: that the car was a rental or at least car,

518
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: So there were those similarities. But in terms of the

519
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 3: socioeconomic a couple of them were married. Ronnie Gorland was engaged,

520
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 3: some of them had children, didn't some were just teenage girls.

521
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 3: Michelle Winters, she had dropped out of high school, but

522
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 3: she came from a wealthy family. So just all sorts

523
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 3: of backgrounds, but none that were particularly disadvantaged or people

524
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 3: that were involved with drugs or other similar issues. They

525
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 3: were typical middle class girls.

526
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: So the list you just gave me Marlene, Mary, Michelle,

527
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: and Annie, how are you picking out characteristics from them

528
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: that makes you think they are connected to the person

529
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: who did the flat tire murders.

530
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 3: Well, the fact that they were found in canals, I

531
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 3: think is an important aspect to linking them together. The

532
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 3: fact that they were all either abducted or went along

533
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 3: with an abductor voluntarily. You know, Mary Coppolo disappeared on

534
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 3: her way to visit a counseling center. Michelle Winters had

535
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 3: left her home and was hitchhiking. And these women are

536
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 3: all ending up in canals. Michelle was strangled with her

537
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: own purse strap. And the fact that also that law

538
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 3: enforcement believed that somebody's targeting these young girls in South Florida,

539
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 3: and the fact that these canals are being used as

540
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 3: dumping grounds is really something that I thought was pertinent

541
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 3: to putting these cases together.

542
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: There are too many victims, too many bodies for that

543
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: many individuals to think that the canals would be a

544
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: great dumping ground. It has to be at least one

545
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 1: or two different people were thinking.

546
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 3: Right, right, and there were no suspects. At the time.

547
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 3: Police were basically interviewing people seeing if there were any

548
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 3: possible composits they could come up with, and really no

549
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: one was identified. They did profile who they thought may

550
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 3: have been involved in the case, but nothing ever came

551
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: of it. There were no arrests.

552
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: Tell me about the profile.

553
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: So what the FBI, the Behavioral Science Unit came down

554
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 1: or is this a local police profile.

555
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 3: This was a local police profile. The FBI wasn't involved

556
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 3: in South Florida.

557
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 2: That's crazy.

558
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: I know that we didn't really have the term serial

559
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: killer until yes, the seventies, but really it became more

560
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: well known in the eighties.

561
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 2: But we did say multiple murderer. This was not unheard of.

562
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 1: I don't understand why they wouldn't call the FBI down

563
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: to try to make these connections.

564
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 3: What happened, Well, yeah, and that's like I said, I

565
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 3: couldn't believe the age of these victims fourteen, fifteen year old.

566
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: That's just absolutely shocking. I don't think the FBI at

567
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 3: the time had really developed. This was sort of the

568
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 3: inception of their Behavioral Science Unit and their idea that

569
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 3: we can profile these people and come up with profiles

570
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,439
Speaker 3: of how this person might act, but there was a

571
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 3: local attempt by law enforcement to profile, which I think

572
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 3: was quite interesting. They believed it was a well spoken,

573
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 3: well dressed person, not a creep, somebody that these girls

574
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 3: would be willing to go with. And I definitely believe

575
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 3: that this person had a vehicle and it was somebody

576
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 3: who could pick up hitchhikers and get them to go

577
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 3: with them. It was probably a local as well, because

578
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 3: simply the areas where these girls were found I think

579
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 3: were deliberately selected as out of the way areas.

580
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 1: So I have a question about the canals. It's an

581
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: awful lot of bodies to be discovered. I would have

582
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: thought it would not be that difficult to weigh down

583
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: a body, and by the time something floated up and

584
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: it was to be discovered, an alligator would have gotten

585
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: to it. It just seems like they're all sort of

586
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: discarded without having too much of a cover up.

587
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: Does that sound right to you?

588
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the canals were used as an

589
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 3: area to dump bodies. And one of the detectives from

590
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 3: California commented when he was potentially linking some cases in

591
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 3: California to South Florida canals in South Florida are basically

592
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 3: like the roads out west the desert. Yeah, the desert.

593
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 3: They're just the available places, so that's what's used. I

594
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 3: think there may be something more to it. I think

595
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 3: also person may have known that water does destroy evidence.

596
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 3: It's very damaging to forensic evidence. Whether the body's weighed

597
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: down or not. I don't know if that makes a difference,

598
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,479
Speaker 3: but I certainly think that putting a body in water

599
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 3: is an attempt to do away with certain types of evidence.

600
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 3: So this is probably is a sophisticated person, you know what.

601
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: I didn't know though, until I talked to Paul Holes

602
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: on his podcast about this. I didn't realize that a

603
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: body submerged in water, if it has by biological evidence

604
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: like semen in it, it can still be recovered. I

605
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: just thought, oh, it's a lost cause, and he said no,

606
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: if they recovered it, it is preserved for at least

607
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: a while until the rest of the body breaks down.

608
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: So I'm crossing my fingers for you with the biological

609
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: evidence because I.

610
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 2: Think that would be great.

611
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: But is now the theory that this is a traveling

612
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: serial killer? Because I'm hearing you talk about California, did

613
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: he go out west.

614
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 3: Well, the police in South Florida were so desperate to

615
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 3: get a lead on this person that they began putting

616
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: two and two together with some cases out in California

617
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 3: that are known as the Santa Rosa Hitchpiker murders. And

618
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 3: these were a number of murders out in the early

619
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 3: to mid seventies that still are unsolved to this day.

620
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,239
Speaker 3: So South Florida consulted with Sonoma County Sheriff's apartment and

621
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 3: kind of put a not a profile together, but they

622
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: asked whether it was possible for this person to have

623
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 3: moved from West down to South Florida. They thought it

624
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 3: was possible, but again, there was nothing concrete linking the

625
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: cases together other than the profile of the victims in

626
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: the fact that they were being found discarded, not buried

627
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,719
Speaker 3: on the side of the road, either in a canal

628
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: or off on the side of the road in California.

629
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: And it sounds like the only thing that's going to

630
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 2: solve that is DNA.

631
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so, And that goes back to what

632
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 3: we were talking about with Joseph DiAngelo. The fact that

633
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: DNA could still be preserved from cases that were from

634
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 3: forty plus years ago is so remarkable and so amazing

635
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 3: that I think that it is a possibility. Ronnie Gorlan

636
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 3: and Elise Rap I think given that they were found

637
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 3: in water, but they were found the next day. So

638
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 3: going back to what you said about preserving biological evidence,

639
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 3: I think definitely that's a lot better than a body

640
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 3: that's found two weeks later in a field or in water.

641
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 3: So they were found fairly quickly. It appears that there

642
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 3: is biological evidence from the medical examiner's reports. What's being

643
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: done with that and the status of that we don't

644
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 3: know at this time.

645
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: So you had Ronnie, Elise, a series of young women

646
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: before you had Judith, and you had Marlene and Mary

647
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: and Michelle and Annie.

648
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: When does this stop?

649
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 3: Well, I really put the end of it as the

650
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 3: death of Michelle Winters. She was seventeen. She disappeared December thirtieth,

651
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy five, and she was found a couple days

652
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 3: later strangled. And after that it really seems to stop.

653
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 3: There seem to be no more young women dead in

654
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 3: canals in nineteen seventy six. Why it stopped, we can

655
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: all speculate on what happened, but really after nineteen seventy five,

656
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 3: this epidemic of girls being killed and thrown in canals ends.

657
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 3: There are still deaths, there's still murders that occurred, but

658
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 3: nothing that fit this pattern.

659
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: So you have a year, a solid year, right from

660
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: January until December thirtieth, you have a solid year of

661
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: young girls and young women ending up in this canal.

662
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: They all have arguably similar methods of being killed. Some

663
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: are drowned and some are shot, but many could have

664
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: been sexually assaulted. They're all sort of in that I mean,

665
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: we're not talking about older women, right, there's no one,

666
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: and I mean older as in I'm in my forties,

667
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: so nobody my age, and so it's it seems like

668
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: a very very remote possibility that these aren't all somehow connected,

669
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: or the majority aren't connected.

670
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: Does that seem right to you?

671
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 3: Absolutely? I think just the geographical area, the profile of

672
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 3: the victims, and the time that we're dealing with the

673
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 3: course of a year, I think all put together absolutely

674
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 3: indicates that somebody was targeting these young women, and it

675
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 3: occurred in South Florida, and then it seems to have stopped.

676
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: Whether it started up somewhere else sort of remains to

677
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 3: be seen. But I think the epidemic of girls being

678
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 3: murdered and found in canals in South Florida ended with

679
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 3: the death of Michelle Winters, and it began in January

680
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 3: of that year, and it just progressively got worse up

681
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 3: until December. And what happened after that time we don't know,

682
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 3: but I think it ended with Michelle Winter's death.

683
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: Have the families of any of these victims pressured police

684
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: over the past four or five decades.

685
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 3: At the time, there was plenty of pressure from parents,

686
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 3: but recently, I'm not aware of anybody at least publicly

687
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 3: pressuring these cases to be solved. And that goes back

688
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 3: to what we talked about. At the beginning. There was

689
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: very little on these cases. There was a Wikipedia page,

690
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 3: I think, maybe a couple of true crime podcasts, and

691
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 3: sort of read some newspaper articles and kind of gave

692
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: a very very brief overview, but that's it. You won't

693
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 3: find much on these cases out there. So I'm sure

694
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 3: that the families have been in touch with law enforcement,

695
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 3: but at least publicly, these cases have really fallen way

696
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 3: talk about cold. These are ice cold cases.

697
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: What is your feeling about what happened with this guy?

698
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: Do you think that he moved? Do you think he

699
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: is connected to the Santa Rosa cases?

700
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 3: Like we said with Ted Bundy, I tried to take

701
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: a neutral position on whether he was involved. I don't know.

702
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 3: I don't know if he could have been traveling from

703
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 3: Utah to South Florida and then back in six weeks.

704
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 3: It's possible, but I think it's definitely someone very similar

705
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 3: to that profile of Ted Bundy. Somebody that's attractive, that's

706
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 3: comfortable speaking with women. And I also think, and this

707
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 3: goes back to Joseph DiAngelo, that the possibility that this

708
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 3: was a law enforcement official or a police officer, or

709
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 3: someone in a position of authority to get these girls

710
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 3: to come with them, I think is a possibility and

711
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 3: it's something that needs to be looked at.

712
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: My stepfather was born in fifty two, so he would

713
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: be in his sixties ish now, so it would be

714
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: interesting to think.

715
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 2: I've said this before, it never.

716
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: Occurred to me that a serial killer can kind of

717
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: age out of serial killing. They just get tired, or

718
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: there are life circumstances that change. How many women are

719
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: we talking about total from that one year, It's more

720
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: than thirty, is that right?

721
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 3: My indication for the flat tire murders and the Canal

722
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 3: murders is that we have thirteen victims. I think three

723
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 3: of them are fourteen years old. That's just in that

724
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 3: limited one year period. There were a series of murders

725
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy three, there was the Miami strangler in

726
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 3: the late sixties early seventies. This is just one of

727
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: three series of murders that I've identified in South Florida

728
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 3: between the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventy five.

729
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 2: So if you subscribe to the theory that Ted.

730
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 1: Bundy killed Ronnie and Elise, then you have to lift

731
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: those two out of the Canal murders because Bundy wasn't

732
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 1: there for the rest of those murders. So what's more

733
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: likely Ted Bundy killed those two and someone else killed

734
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: all of the rest or Ted Bundy didn't kill either

735
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: of them and someone else or multiple people killed everybody

736
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: and they're all connected.

737
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: That's the conundrum we're left with. Personally, I leaned against

738
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy being there just geographically, it's a long distance.

739
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 3: He had his little Volkswagen, but I doubt he was

740
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 3: spending days and days driving. But on the other hand,

741
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 3: I have to respect the opinions of the detectives who

742
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 3: worked these cases that to this day, forty plus years later,

743
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 3: feel that Bundy was the perpetrator. I've got to give

744
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 3: them a degree of deference to their opinions. Could have

745
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 3: been him, it could have been Was it him? I

746
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: don't know. I'm not too inclined to believe that, but

747
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 3: I think certainly that somebody of his make, of his mindset,

748
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 3: was the one who committed these crimes.

749
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: Ruse actually does sound like him, like how he pretended

750
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: he had a broken arm and asked for help.

751
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 2: That actually does make some sense.

752
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: But I think what's frightening is to think that there

753
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: could be just one person responsible for that many deaths

754
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: of women, and that they were never caught and they

755
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 1: are likely still alive. They're just in their sixties. So

756
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: that's difficult for me to fathom. That this was something

757
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: that happened in a time period where there was a

758
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: lot of media, there was interest in murder. This is

759
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 1: passed in cold blood, so true crime was still becoming

760
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: more popular. I just don't understand why there wasn't more

761
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: publicity around this and more people just didn't care.

762
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 3: Like I said, it's shocking that you could have a

763
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 3: number of fourteen year old girls murdered and found in

764
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 3: canals and not have it as prominent as I think

765
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 3: it would be today. I would think if this sort

766
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 3: of series of murders were to occur today with young

767
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 3: victims like this, it would be NonStop media attention. Back then,

768
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 3: I think given the the situation with crime at the time, police,

769
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: I think we're overwhelmed with the number of crimes that

770
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: they were having to solve and to be involved in

771
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 3: the media probably was trying to keep pace with all

772
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 3: of the other crimes and events, and these were just

773
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 3: more murders. They were just more cases that got a

774
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: little bit of attention and new news came along and

775
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 3: they sort of fell by the wayside. But I think

776
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: when we take a step back and we look at

777
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 3: it from today's perspective, this definitely was a series of

778
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 3: murders that occurred in a very distinct time period with

779
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 3: a very distinct victim type. So at least today, I

780
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 3: think with forty years perspective, forty five years perspective, we

781
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 3: can see sort of what we're seeing now.

782
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: What is your hope here with this case?

783
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 3: With these cases, my only hope is that we'll get

784
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 3: public attention on these cases. Where that leads, I don't know.

785
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 3: I'm not a public official or have any influence other

786
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 3: than letting people know that these cases occurred, that they're

787
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 3: still unsolved, and giving the best that I can in

788
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 3: terms of information as to what happened, what evidence is available,

789
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 3: and just getting the public to be aware that these

790
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 3: case are still unsolved. Where that leads, I don't know.

791
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 3: I hope it's that these cases will be solved. And

792
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 3: if DiAngelo, I think shows anything, it's that it can

793
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 3: be solved. I think that's interesting because in twenty sixteen,

794
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 3: when the Golden State killer case was still unsolved, the

795
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 3: California Department of Justice said with a big press conference,

796
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 3: we are still looking at these cases. These cases are

797
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: still unsolved, we are not reopening them, but we are

798
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 3: bringing public attention to them. And then two years later

799
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 3: he's caught, you know, in twenty eighteen. So I'm hoping

800
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 3: that public attention will eventually somehow lead to these cases

801
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 3: being solved.

802
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: Well, as we know from the Golden State Killer case,

803
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: all it takes is one diligent writer to keep plugging

804
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: away at it and get that public attention.

805
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: So I wish you the best of luck with that.

806
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 3: Thank you, I really appreciate it. And this book is

807
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 3: really dedicated to the victims and they're not forgotten.

808
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked, words Ken Dr Blake

809
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: on true crime Inspiring Fiction, Let's talk about Charlie's record

810
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: so far. So there is the gas station attendant seven

811
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: weeks earlier. Right, Yes, we have her mother or her stepfather,

812
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: her younger sister who are killed. Then you've got an

813
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: old man who's killed, and then two teenagers. Does this

814
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: end sometime soon?

815
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 3: No?

816
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: That brings us to seven victims, and we have to

817
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: get all the way to eleven.

818
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 4: Oh gosh.

819
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available now,

820
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked is based on

821
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 1: our first season of Tenfold War Wicked. You might think

822
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: you know the whole story of killer Edward Ruloff's crimes,

823
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: but there's so much more.

824
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: My book American Sherlock is also available.

825
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right tenfold War Media production.

826
00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: The producer is Alexisimirosi, Our mixer is Ryo baum Heath is.

827
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: Our composer, Nick Toga did the artwork. Il Sabrink designed

828
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 2: the website.

829
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and Danielle Kramer.

830
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more

831
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more and If you

832
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention,

833
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: especially if it happened in your family, email us at

834
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. We'll also take your

835
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words