WEBVTT - Jill Abramson 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.840 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:15.360 In two thousand eleven, Jill Abramson became executive editor of 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.360 the New York Times, the first woman ever to hold 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.239 that position. On the day of her appointment, she was 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.319 quick to acknowledge those who had transformed the role of 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:28.840 women in journalism before her. She cited, among others, Anna Quinland, 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.760 Maureen Dowd, and Nan Robertson, a reporter at the paper 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.600 for over three decades, but there's no denying that Jill 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.960 had put in her time. She was the Times Washington 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.080 bureau chief and then it's managing editor before she was 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.839 offered the big job at her hometown paper, currently based 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.720 on Eighth Avenue between forty one Street on the West 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.760 Side of Manhattan. I am totally a west Side or 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:58.040 My parents were actually both born at home on the 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:02.160 Upper west Side. I mean everyone on both sides of 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:06.880 my family. No, they still live on the Upper west Side, 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:11.080 like stacked together. I just feel like I'm walking in 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:15.400 my sixth grade. For you, it's home. It's very much home. 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:19.959 So he went to Harvard to study history, history and literature. Yeah, 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.080 and was writing something in some fashion. Writing was what 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.840 was on your horizon from the beginning. From back then, 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.919 I knew I always liked to write, but it wasn't 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:34.399 that I set out to be a journalist. Freshman year 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:40.400 um was two for me, which sounds like the Stone Age, 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:43.760 but it was, you know, the McGovern Nickson election. It 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:47.520 was the dawn of Watergate. And so all through my 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:52.200 college years, Woodward and Bernstein, you know, I just like 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:57.800 glued to their reporting and thrilled by that coverage. It 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:02.320 seemed so ground raking and brave to me. So I 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:06.320 kind of fell in love with, at least the journalism 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.760 end of writing. I always liked to write, was a 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:13.320 fairly fascile rioter. But when you leave Harvard in seventies six, 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:15.960 if I'm not mistaken, you go pretty heavily into the 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.440 world of law. You were. The first writing you did 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.840 was with the first job I had in journalism was 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:26.000 for Time Magazine and Boston. I had been a stringer, 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.400 which is a part time reporter for them in college. 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.520 So how long did that last? That lasted two years? 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.200 So that's your apprenticeship. That was my apprenticeship. And what 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:39.600 kind of thing did you cover there? Oh? You name it? 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:44.880 From the hot socks craze back then to bus sing. 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:49.720 I mean it was from lifestyle to big issues unfolding. 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:51.799 Where do you go from there? Well, what I did 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.040 after time as I worked in the election unit of 0:02:55.240 --> 0:03:01.600 NBC News. I'm a total political junkie, and uh work there, 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:07.720 and I met Steve Brill, who's another prominent journalist here 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:12.400 whose specialty was law, and Steve and I just got friendly, 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:18.520 and he was starting the American Lawyer magazine. And while 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.720 lawyers didn't particularly interest me, a number of journalists who 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:26.799 I knew from Harvard or or in New York had 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:28.880 gone to work for him because it was going to 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:33.360 be a writer early kind of investigative magazine that wasn't 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:38.640 cheering on lawyers, but was really examining the power that 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:43.360 lawyers and law firms wheeled behind legal perspective. So that 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:47.240 is so when that was brand new, I cast and 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.440 I worked for that magazine for a couple of years, 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:56.680 and then Steve bought a legal newspaper in Washington called 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:01.080 Legal Times, and when I was thirty, he's said, poof, 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.240 I'm making you the editor of this newspaper. And I 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:07.800 moved to Washington and did that and you're ready to 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:11.120 be the editor of something I don't. I certainly didn't 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.560 think I was ready, but he thought I was ready. 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.040 How long were you there? I was there for a 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:20.480 long time. I was there for about seven or eight 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:25.680 years and working for Steve both in New York and 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:27.760 in Washington. And then I went to the Wall Street 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.160 Journals for people who are late, people like myself. The 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.400 journalist obviously of you now as a pretty right of 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.760 center organization, the opinion page and so forth. And I'm 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.000 not going to characterize you as being either direction of center, 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.400 but was that in an interesting experience for you? How 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.240 would you characterize the political culture of the journal? Then? 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:50.320 The political culture of the journal then was set. The 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:56.680 editorial pages were extremely conservative. I mean Paul Jego, who 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.680 was the editor of those pages now is the of 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:05.000 Bob Bartley, who was for a very long time the 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:13.880 editor of the editorial journalism at Giant Conservative. And uh, 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:17.400 you know, operating as a news reporter in Washington at 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.919 the Journal, like at the New York Times, there's a 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:26.720 traditional separation between the editorial department and editorial views of 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:32.440 the paper and news gathering. And but you know, a 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.760 lot of people don't know that. Even a lot of 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:38.799 political people in Washington didn't know it. So in Washington 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:44.520 it was actually it advantaged me because in for example, 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:48.560 when Gingrich took over the House, like, there were Republicans 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.200 who would gladly talk to me. I have I have 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:55.000 always had good Republican sources because I think they felt 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.040 I can trust you because you're from the Wall Street Journal. 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:05.000 And so it was interesting, it was sometimes awkward because 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:11.040 in it, wellour Jane Mayor of the New Yorker who 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.680 was then at the Journal, and I wrote a book 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:17.680 about the Clarence Thomas Anita Hill. Did you have to 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.920 get permission from Norm Pearl Starte and then Paul ste 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.640 on the other side of the screen, right, And you know, 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.719 Jane and I worked on that book for several years 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.960 and found, you know, by doing a lot of in 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.719 depth reporting that we thought the weight of evidence for 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:41.520 sure was that Anita Hill had told the truth. Then 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.719 there had been a big campaign on the right to 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:49.200 destroy her credibility, not only during the hearings themselves, but 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:54.320 in the years after and when our book was published 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.960 at made you know, pretty big spot that it wasn't 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.800 my first book, but was uh the book that I'm 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.080 proudest to have. And why would you say it was it? Was? 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:07.880 It a combination of all these things. But was it 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.640 what happened to Hill? The way they dealt with Hill. 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.760 I think why um the book was so important is that, uh, 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:20.160 those hearings ended and everyone in Washington just said it's 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.880 he said, she said, and we'll never know. And for me, 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:30.120 that is bait. I really believe if you do enough digging, 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:35.680 in enough reporting, you can find the truth in most 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.560 and act accordingly. But why it created awkwardness at the 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.280 Journal is that when the book came out, even though 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:48.640 the journal's news pages ran an excerpt of the book, 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:54.480 the editorial page wrote an editorial like ripping, ripping, so 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:57.560 that you're passing in the in the hallway. In fact, 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:02.240 it was post pause, you go himself, He'll let you 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.200 know in no uncertain terms in writing fact, that's right, 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:13.080 how straightforward with him? No, it's was his right, that's 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.120 your business. What I always walk away from the Thomas 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.400 event was that in the arc of decades of political 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:21.280 life in this country, there's a kind of a score 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.120 that some people keep a moral score that kind of 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:26.960 like you guys had your chap aquittic when they're like, 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:28.640 some of our guys are going to get a pass, 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.240 like some of your guys got to pass. They don't 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:33.360 push too hard here on the Thomas things. So he 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.240 did some injrew things to this woman. That's a very 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.840 perceptive point, because Bork had gone down in flames after 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:45.120 a very vigorous liberal campaign against him, and so there 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.880 was a feeling of not again. Right, So when you're 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:54.080 at the Journal and you've got the first Bush term 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.679 and the first Clinton term, while you're at the Journal, Yeah, 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.839 what was it like for you covering Washington in the 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.880 scene between those two? What was it like covering the 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:04.960 Bush White House? What was it like covering the Clinton 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:09.360 White House? The Bush white House was, you know, not 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.400 that different from what the Reagan White House had been. 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:15.760 Do you have much interaction with Bush himself? No. I 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:20.559 had an investigative beat on the nexus of money in politics. 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:25.840 So I wasn't the White House car respondent ever at 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.520 the Journal or at the Times. I was always an 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:32.640 investigative reporter on the political team. And who was responsible 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:36.240 would you say for the time as being as concerned 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.839 about campaign finance issues as they were then? Was it 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.640 you was it Were they saying to yes in that direction? 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:45.320 I think the Times wanted to haire me because that 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.959 was a big strength of mine. I was well known 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:53.720 for covering at and had um at the Journal covered 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:58.760 just about every scandal of the eighties and early to 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:02.000 mid nineties set. When the Citizens United case came down, 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.240 how did you feel about that? Well, you know, I 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:10.080 I thought it definitely would change, uh the landscape of 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:14.760 how money was raised and spent in the election, and 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.920 and I think it and other court decisions did because 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:23.240 we were in this sort of wild west of spending 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.480 UH and the advent of the super PACs and all 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:31.320 of that in the campaign. It didn't really surprise me 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:35.559 because you know you had asked about Bush before. UM. 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:41.640 George Herbert Walker Bush actually built uh the state of 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.000 the art big money machine that was called Team one 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:50.400 hundred back in his day, and that was UM involving 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:55.480 big soft money donations which were ultimately outlawed. But in 0:10:55.559 --> 0:11:01.400 some ways, you know, Tip O'Neill was right money fund away, UH. 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.959 So mainly I just knew it would have a big impact, 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.959 UH and that it would create a lot of great 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.840 stories for the Times, which it did, and then Clinton 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.920 came in, and how was that different for you? Clinton, 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:19.520 of course had his own set of fundraising excesses in 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:23.000 his nineties six reelection campaign. That was when he was 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:27.080 having the White House sleepovers in the Lincoln Bedroom for 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:34.400 big dardenings, right exactly. So that's why the Times like 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.560 wanted me because the journal was beating the Times on 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:43.720 that story. And then uh, Maureen Dowd accosts you somewhere 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.680 and uh, she's got some ideas for you. Maureen walked 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.560 up to me. It was at a book party for 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:56.960 Michael Kelly, who's another great journalist who's sadly died in 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:00.480 in Ira. But it was at a book party for him. Um, 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:04.679 and the Times was getting a new bureau chief in Washington, 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.439 and I knew more. And in fact, we sat across 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.560 a table much like we're sitting at now, across from 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:15.440 each other during the Clarence Thomas Anita Hill hearings, which 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.400 is kind of where we bond. Uh. She came up 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.520 to me at the book party and she said, do 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.679 you know of any good women we can hire? And 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.439 so I looked at her with us kind of what 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.520 am I chop liver look? And she said you would 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.719 never leave the journal. And I said, oh, what you think, 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.120 because I was like doing really well there and she 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:41.920 just didn't think I would want to. But what she 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:45.000 didn't know is that, you know, I grew up in 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:49.840 a family that had to print home delivery subscriptions to 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.680 the Times because my mom didn't like anyone touching the 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:58.320 section that had the puzzle own. Uh. And you know, 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.199 every time I had a front page piece in the journal, 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:07.280 my mother's brother would have to calm my parents and say, 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:12.760 go by the journal. Jilli's got a front page piece. Yeah, 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:16.640 you know the New York Times was you know, the 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:24.760 total voice of authority was my father. That was the 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.640 way it wasn't my So Maureen says this to you, guys, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.439 are you have the one of my chopped liver moment 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.520 with ma And then and she had like the new 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.760 bureau chief called me up for lunch, and uh, he 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:42.480 made me a job offer, and I came. And then 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.960 Morien and I became completely inseparable. And how long did 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.600 were you in that position? I was in the Washington 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:54.480 Bureau from nineties seven. I went into editing there. I 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:59.800 became the deputy bureau chief to micro Riscus who was 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:05.200 hired me and then after the two thousand Stalemate campaign, 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.600 I became bureau chief and then I had that job 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.600 for three years. And so covering the Clinton impeachment, did 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:14.600 you did you well? I mean I was in I 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.160 was in Africa at the time, huh watching the proceedings 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.800 didn't miss you know. I watched it on the BBC 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.040 on Sky TV in the in South Africa where I 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:24.560 was with my ex wife while she made a film, 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:27.200 and we watched it. For me, I always wondered, did 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.440 anybody really cover the Clinton impeachment as well as they 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.800 might have? I think what was true is that, you know, 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:41.119 every reporter who was covering the main proceedings was probably 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:46.480 getting more information from the Prosecutor's office, from Ken Star's 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:51.840 office than they were through reporting around the president. And 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.880 mainly more people should have been reporting on what actually 0:14:56.040 --> 0:15:01.440 had happened and how this case di up. And at 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:05.760 the Times, I you know, the Times was lucky in 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:11.640 that they have a big bureau and they sicked Uh 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.520 an investigative reporter named Don van Atta and and me 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:22.600 onto uh on two Stars office. And I had some 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:28.560 very good sources around the White House in the White House, 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.840 and also from my years of covering the legal community 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:37.520 in conservative legal circles. And what Don and I did 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:42.280 is show that it was Monica Winsky Linda Tripp. Didn't 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.200 you know, Linda Trip didn't appear on ken Star's doorstep. 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:53.040 Serendipitously that ever since a very conservative magazine named The 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:57.360 American Spectator had surface and named Paula Jones, there was 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:03.240 this plan with a bunch of young, relatively unknown conservative 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.600 lawyers working to make that into the case that being 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.560 on in the basis of those are the two sticks 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:12.240 they were up together to get the whole thing going. 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.320 You know, it's interesting because as for someone again as 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.640 a late person, you look at the arc of political coverage, 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:23.440 and you wonder where there are advances like glaciers almost 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.440 in retreats of the power and the authority of investigative 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:31.880 journalism in the post Ellsberg, in the post water Gate, 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:33.560 like that was a time in which the kind of 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.680 vesuvius of all this kind of work changed the course 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.320 of our country. And do you find now that when, 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:42.120 especially in your position now, people will come to you 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.040 like I know that if I worked at the times, 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:46.920 I'm assuming it wouldn't be diminished by the fact that 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.840 I was experienced and I was trained, I went to Columbia, 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:52.720 I'd still have my nature. And if my nature was 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:54.400 to come to you and say, man, I got a 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.400 story of you. I found out this stuff about this 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.040 and this and this. Do you literally have to say 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:00.880 to yourself, we can we have so much of that 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:04.680 in the paper. No, I don't say that, but when 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.280 someone is so eager a little bit, I have a 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:12.919 skeptical side, which is also saying, you know, we have 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:17.600 to independently report and see as this really the great story, 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:20.520 because you know, there have been a number of cases 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:25.080 in journalism, some of them at the times, where you're 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.720 getting all kinds of leaks from a prosecutor and you know, 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:34.320 well that wasn't from from a prosecutor, that was from 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:40.679 Iraqi defectors, mainland government officials. But where you're getting you 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.320 know only one side of it. But you know, since 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:48.840 you mentioned, uh, Judy Miller, I think that that's actually 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.359 a great case that I think about all the time 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.639 because I was Washington Bureau chief at that time, and 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.120 Judy didn't work for me, but she did a lot 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:03.159 of reporting viously in Washington and at the Bush, White 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:09.960 House and other places, and where the Iraqi defectors were 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:14.879 telling these you know, stories about Saddam supposed active w 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:21.240 m D programs and uh, these same defectors had told 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:26.280 their stories to people inside the government. So in some ways, 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:30.280 like the government sources pretended that they were confirming the 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.920 information given by the defectors. But it was like one 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:40.240 horrible feedback loop. And meanwhile that was very loud because 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.840 the defectors and the people in the government were aiding 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.879 you know, journalists to focus on these stories and in 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:53.119 real time. I don't think I appreciated this as I 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:58.760 should have. There were dissident analysts at the CIA who 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:03.440 you know, were very doubtful of the EVA. With your 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:07.160 perspective on history, do you in any way have more 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:11.240 sympathy for Bush forty three and Shaney in that crowd 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.440 for the way they reacted in the post nine eleven 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:17.160 world or did they acted improperly based on the information 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.720 they had. I think it's a combination. The Iraq connection. 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:26.919 We could certainly today, but I think they there was 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:31.280 real reason to feel after nine eleven. I was in Washington, 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.440 we had you know, tax in front of our building. 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:39.840 You know, it was a change world than that immediate 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:45.760 post nine eleven period. You know, it felt Yeah, I 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:51.440 mean on nine eleven, Uh, we did so many stories 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:56.720 that day out of Washington's more stories than we've ever had. 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.600 And the story list from that day still hang outside 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.640 of the Bureaucuese office. And you know, I didn't get 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:07.679 home until I don't know, three o'clock in the morning 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:12.880 or so, and drove right past the burning Pentagon, and 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.040 you know, my whole way home, you know, there were 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:21.080 flags already up on all the streets. And then I 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.600 got home to our house and you know, even my husband, 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:29.560 who isn't such a you know, overt patriot, had hung 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:34.639 our absurdly large Fourth of July flag, And you know, 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.800 at that point I just sat in my car and 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:45.240 kind of absorbed like it was changed. But that doesn't 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:53.840 justify such a you know, misreading of intelligence and such 0:20:53.880 --> 0:21:01.800 an aggressive sales campaign for a war big Ston. Yeah, 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:08.320 supposed dangers that we're not. How long did you stay 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.000 in Washington after the attack of nine eleven, You were 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:13.560 there to a wint one year. I um left in 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.639 the summer of two thousand and three to go and 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:20.679 to do to become the managing managing Now, so this 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:22.600 is the beginning of a kind of a management the 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:24.800 management phase of your career. Correct. I mean, you were right. 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:29.440 It was sudden because at that point the executive editor 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:33.720 and managing editors of the time it's had both been fired. 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:36.840 And when you became managing editor, how did that condemn? 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:40.800 What was the time of tumult at the paper was 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:46.680 after the Jason Blair scandal, after big questions were being 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:50.800 raised about that period of leadership and also about our 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:56.520 pre war coverage. You know, no one came and said 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.919 we're looking for a woman. But you know I was 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:04.600 already in the leadership ranks as Washington Bureau chief. That's 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.760 big time job. You know that James Riston had another 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:15.320 lions of of journalism, and you know Bill Keller was 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:19.280 named the new executive editor, and I had always thought 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:24.239 the world of him, and you know he picked me. 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:27.119 Was it a hard seller? Were you ready? Did you 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:29.760 want to go back to New York too? Yeah? I 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:33.040 hadn't really thought about coming back to New York, but 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.480 because Washington seems so much more pure. I don't say 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.080 it as a compliment to myself, but it was very 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:43.159 much my test. Yes, my kind of town. Did you 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.560 did you think about that career wise? Was management going 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:47.919 to become a step back for you creatively? Even now? 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:52.480 I mean, the idea that I could ever be managing 0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:55.159 editor of The New York Times, which is the number 0:22:55.720 --> 0:23:05.200 two jobs, just seemed like incredible. This was two thousand three, when, 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:09.359 after only two years as executive editor, Howell Raines was 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:13.879 forced out due to the Jason Blair plagiarism scandal. Rains 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.080 had worked closely with Abramson when she was in Washington, 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:21.040 and their relationship had been a difficult one. Eight years later, 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:24.520 she had rains old job and strong ideas about the 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:28.679 kind of boss she wanted to be coming up. Abramson 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:33.679 talks about what she wants in a story. This is 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:58.840 Alec Baldwin and you're listening to. Here's the thing. The 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:03.359 newspaper business is in trouble. Print readership is plummeting, and 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:07.760 although digital subscriptions of The New York Times have exceeded expectations, 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:10.679 the Times is still navigating toward a new way of 0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:14.160 doing business. The New York Times staff has seen three 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:18.400 rounds of buyouts in the last four years. Despite this, 0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:22.200 Jill Abramson didn't hesitate when she got the call from 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.240 the Times publisher Arthur Salzburger. It was the brass ring 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:30.040 and I jumped for it. And you know, I certainly 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:34.399 knew that the newspaper industry certainly has been going through 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:38.119 you know, rough waters, and that there are you know, 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:43.080 secular changes in our industry. But I also have always 0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:48.000 known that the Times News report is like none other 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:54.400 and that I think it's an indispensable institution and society, 0:24:54.840 --> 0:25:01.000 the Times, including editorial and all aspects of of our 0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:05.720 news report, And I just have always believed that it's 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:10.439 so worth paying for that it you know, it didn't 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:13.360 seem to me so odd. Everyone was saying that our 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:18.399 pay subscription plan was a rash move and that news 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:21.199 wants to be free and it would never work, and 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:25.840 it has created a very significant revenue stream for us. 0:25:26.640 --> 0:25:30.760 It was a very smart decision of Arthur's to to 0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:33.520 go that way. And how do you juice that up 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:36.080 a little bit? I mean, what's the strategy you must 0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:38.000 have some where you can how are you going to 0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:42.640 build build build that online presence. Well, we're gonna build 0:25:42.760 --> 0:25:48.560 on our digital subscription base for sure. What's the obstacle 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:52.040 to getting people to because people will say, why pay 0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:54.679 when it's free, But it's not really free. Some of 0:25:54.720 --> 0:25:59.800 it's free. That our strategy is smart, that what we've 0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:04.879 on is for people who are you know, inveterate readers 0:26:04.920 --> 0:26:10.359 and frequent users of our website, we've asked them to pay. 0:26:10.400 --> 0:26:13.600 You know, they want to read many articles and spend 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:19.679 significant time on our website. And yet we have a 0:26:19.760 --> 0:26:22.679 kind of basic good to go. You know, if you 0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:26.640 want on our apps, the top stories, you can look 0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:31.119 at those. If you come, you know, from a link 0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:34.840 from another site, you can read what you want to read. 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:39.080 It's it's flexible. It lets us stay part of the 0:26:39.119 --> 0:26:44.879 open web while asking people who can't live without to 0:26:45.000 --> 0:26:48.720 pay something for it. Now you would come to the paper, 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:50.760 I would assume it's like someone once said to me 0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:55.199 about um political figures. I remember when Giuliani was the 0:26:55.200 --> 0:26:57.000 mayor of New York, someone said to me that very 0:26:57.000 --> 0:26:59.560 often people will bring to these jobs the spirit of 0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:02.600 what they're previous career was. So Giuliani's job as a 0:27:02.640 --> 0:27:05.760 prosecutor was to catch people doing bad things. So he 0:27:05.800 --> 0:27:07.920 brought that to the mayoralty. His job as mayor was 0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:10.800 to catch bad people doing things. You know, uh, and 0:27:11.080 --> 0:27:13.560 you're kind of a crime stopper, mayoralty if you will. 0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:15.359 And I wonder if the same is true for you 0:27:15.720 --> 0:27:18.360 in your job as executive editor, meaning you had your beat, 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:20.800 so to speak, you had your desk, you've had your coverage, 0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:23.720 most of it Washington based. Do you bring to the 0:27:23.840 --> 0:27:27.359