1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: In two thousand eleven, Jill Abramson became executive editor of 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: the New York Times, the first woman ever to hold 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: that position. On the day of her appointment, she was 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: quick to acknowledge those who had transformed the role of 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: women in journalism before her. She cited, among others, Anna Quinland, 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: Maureen Dowd, and Nan Robertson, a reporter at the paper 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: for over three decades, but there's no denying that Jill 9 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: had put in her time. She was the Times Washington 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: bureau chief and then it's managing editor before she was 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: offered the big job at her hometown paper, currently based 12 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: on Eighth Avenue between forty one Street on the West 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: Side of Manhattan. I am totally a west Side or 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: My parents were actually both born at home on the 15 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: Upper west Side. I mean everyone on both sides of 16 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: my family. No, they still live on the Upper west Side, 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: like stacked together. I just feel like I'm walking in 18 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: my sixth grade. For you, it's home. It's very much home. 19 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: So he went to Harvard to study history, history and literature. Yeah, 20 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: and was writing something in some fashion. Writing was what 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: was on your horizon from the beginning. From back then, 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,919 Speaker 1: I knew I always liked to write, but it wasn't 23 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: that I set out to be a journalist. Freshman year 24 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: um was two for me, which sounds like the Stone Age, 25 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: but it was, you know, the McGovern Nickson election. It 26 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: was the dawn of Watergate. And so all through my 27 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: college years, Woodward and Bernstein, you know, I just like 28 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: glued to their reporting and thrilled by that coverage. It 29 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: seemed so ground raking and brave to me. So I 30 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: kind of fell in love with, at least the journalism 31 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: end of writing. I always liked to write, was a 32 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: fairly fascile rioter. But when you leave Harvard in seventies six, 33 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, you go pretty heavily into the 34 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: world of law. You were. The first writing you did 35 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: was with the first job I had in journalism was 36 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: for Time Magazine and Boston. I had been a stringer, 37 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: which is a part time reporter for them in college. 38 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: So how long did that last? That lasted two years? 39 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: So that's your apprenticeship. That was my apprenticeship. And what 40 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: kind of thing did you cover there? Oh? You name it? 41 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: From the hot socks craze back then to bus sing. 42 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: I mean it was from lifestyle to big issues unfolding. 43 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 1: Where do you go from there? Well, what I did 44 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: after time as I worked in the election unit of 45 00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: NBC News. I'm a total political junkie, and uh work there, 46 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: and I met Steve Brill, who's another prominent journalist here 47 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: whose specialty was law, and Steve and I just got friendly, 48 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: and he was starting the American Lawyer magazine. And while 49 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: lawyers didn't particularly interest me, a number of journalists who 50 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: I knew from Harvard or or in New York had 51 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: gone to work for him because it was going to 52 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: be a writer early kind of investigative magazine that wasn't 53 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: cheering on lawyers, but was really examining the power that 54 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: lawyers and law firms wheeled behind legal perspective. So that 55 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: is so when that was brand new, I cast and 56 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: I worked for that magazine for a couple of years, 57 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: and then Steve bought a legal newspaper in Washington called 58 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: Legal Times, and when I was thirty, he's said, poof, 59 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: I'm making you the editor of this newspaper. And I 60 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: moved to Washington and did that and you're ready to 61 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: be the editor of something I don't. I certainly didn't 62 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: think I was ready, but he thought I was ready. 63 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: How long were you there? I was there for a 64 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: long time. I was there for about seven or eight 65 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: years and working for Steve both in New York and 66 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: in Washington. And then I went to the Wall Street 67 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: Journals for people who are late, people like myself. The 68 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: journalist obviously of you now as a pretty right of 69 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: center organization, the opinion page and so forth. And I'm 70 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: not going to characterize you as being either direction of center, 71 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: but was that in an interesting experience for you? How 72 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: would you characterize the political culture of the journal? Then? 73 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: The political culture of the journal then was set. The 74 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: editorial pages were extremely conservative. I mean Paul Jego, who 75 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: was the editor of those pages now is the of 76 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: Bob Bartley, who was for a very long time the 77 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: editor of the editorial journalism at Giant Conservative. And uh, 78 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, operating as a news reporter in Washington at 79 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 1: the Journal, like at the New York Times, there's a 80 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: traditional separation between the editorial department and editorial views of 81 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: the paper and news gathering. And but you know, a 82 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: lot of people don't know that. Even a lot of 83 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,799 Speaker 1: political people in Washington didn't know it. So in Washington 84 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: it was actually it advantaged me because in for example, 85 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: when Gingrich took over the House, like, there were Republicans 86 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: who would gladly talk to me. I have I have 87 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: always had good Republican sources because I think they felt 88 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: I can trust you because you're from the Wall Street Journal. 89 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: And so it was interesting, it was sometimes awkward because 90 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: in it, wellour Jane Mayor of the New Yorker who 91 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: was then at the Journal, and I wrote a book 92 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: about the Clarence Thomas Anita Hill. Did you have to 93 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: get permission from Norm Pearl Starte and then Paul ste 94 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: on the other side of the screen, right, And you know, 95 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: Jane and I worked on that book for several years 96 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: and found, you know, by doing a lot of in 97 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: depth reporting that we thought the weight of evidence for 98 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: sure was that Anita Hill had told the truth. Then 99 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: there had been a big campaign on the right to 100 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: destroy her credibility, not only during the hearings themselves, but 101 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: in the years after and when our book was published 102 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: at made you know, pretty big spot that it wasn't 103 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: my first book, but was uh the book that I'm 104 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: proudest to have. And why would you say it was it? Was? 105 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: It a combination of all these things. But was it 106 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: what happened to Hill? The way they dealt with Hill. 107 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: I think why um the book was so important is that, uh, 108 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: those hearings ended and everyone in Washington just said it's 109 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: he said, she said, and we'll never know. And for me, 110 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: that is bait. I really believe if you do enough digging, 111 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: in enough reporting, you can find the truth in most 112 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: and act accordingly. But why it created awkwardness at the 113 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: Journal is that when the book came out, even though 114 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: the journal's news pages ran an excerpt of the book, 115 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: the editorial page wrote an editorial like ripping, ripping, so 116 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: that you're passing in the in the hallway. In fact, 117 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: it was post pause, you go himself, He'll let you 118 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: know in no uncertain terms in writing fact, that's right, 119 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: how straightforward with him? No, it's was his right, that's 120 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: your business. What I always walk away from the Thomas 121 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: event was that in the arc of decades of political 122 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: life in this country, there's a kind of a score 123 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: that some people keep a moral score that kind of 124 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: like you guys had your chap aquittic when they're like, 125 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: some of our guys are going to get a pass, 126 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: like some of your guys got to pass. They don't 127 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: push too hard here on the Thomas things. So he 128 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: did some injrew things to this woman. That's a very 129 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: perceptive point, because Bork had gone down in flames after 130 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: a very vigorous liberal campaign against him, and so there 131 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: was a feeling of not again. Right, So when you're 132 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: at the Journal and you've got the first Bush term 133 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: and the first Clinton term, while you're at the Journal, Yeah, 134 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: what was it like for you covering Washington in the 135 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: scene between those two? What was it like covering the 136 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: Bush White House? What was it like covering the Clinton 137 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: White House? The Bush white House was, you know, not 138 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: that different from what the Reagan White House had been. 139 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: Do you have much interaction with Bush himself? No. I 140 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: had an investigative beat on the nexus of money in politics. 141 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: So I wasn't the White House car respondent ever at 142 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: the Journal or at the Times. I was always an 143 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: investigative reporter on the political team. And who was responsible 144 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: would you say for the time as being as concerned 145 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,839 Speaker 1: about campaign finance issues as they were then? Was it 146 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: you was it Were they saying to yes in that direction? 147 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: I think the Times wanted to haire me because that 148 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: was a big strength of mine. I was well known 149 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: for covering at and had um at the Journal covered 150 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: just about every scandal of the eighties and early to 151 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: mid nineties set. When the Citizens United case came down, 152 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: how did you feel about that? Well, you know, I 153 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: I thought it definitely would change, uh the landscape of 154 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: how money was raised and spent in the election, and 155 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: and I think it and other court decisions did because 156 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: we were in this sort of wild west of spending 157 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: UH and the advent of the super PACs and all 158 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: of that in the campaign. It didn't really surprise me 159 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: because you know you had asked about Bush before. UM. 160 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: George Herbert Walker Bush actually built uh the state of 161 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: the art big money machine that was called Team one 162 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: hundred back in his day, and that was UM involving 163 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: big soft money donations which were ultimately outlawed. But in 164 00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: some ways, you know, Tip O'Neill was right money fund away, UH. 165 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: So mainly I just knew it would have a big impact, 166 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,959 Speaker 1: UH and that it would create a lot of great 167 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: stories for the Times, which it did, and then Clinton 168 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: came in, and how was that different for you? Clinton, 169 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: of course had his own set of fundraising excesses in 170 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: his nineties six reelection campaign. That was when he was 171 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: having the White House sleepovers in the Lincoln Bedroom for 172 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: big dardenings, right exactly. So that's why the Times like 173 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: wanted me because the journal was beating the Times on 174 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: that story. And then uh, Maureen Dowd accosts you somewhere 175 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: and uh, she's got some ideas for you. Maureen walked 176 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: up to me. It was at a book party for 177 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: Michael Kelly, who's another great journalist who's sadly died in 178 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: in Ira. But it was at a book party for him. Um, 179 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: and the Times was getting a new bureau chief in Washington, 180 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: and I knew more. And in fact, we sat across 181 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: a table much like we're sitting at now, across from 182 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: each other during the Clarence Thomas Anita Hill hearings, which 183 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: is kind of where we bond. Uh. She came up 184 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: to me at the book party and she said, do 185 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 1: you know of any good women we can hire? And 186 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: so I looked at her with us kind of what 187 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: am I chop liver look? And she said you would 188 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 1: never leave the journal. And I said, oh, what you think, 189 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: because I was like doing really well there and she 190 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: just didn't think I would want to. But what she 191 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: didn't know is that, you know, I grew up in 192 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: a family that had to print home delivery subscriptions to 193 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: the Times because my mom didn't like anyone touching the 194 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: section that had the puzzle own. Uh. And you know, 195 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: every time I had a front page piece in the journal, 196 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: my mother's brother would have to calm my parents and say, 197 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: go by the journal. Jilli's got a front page piece. Yeah, 198 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: you know the New York Times was you know, the 199 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: total voice of authority was my father. That was the 200 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: way it wasn't my So Maureen says this to you, guys, 201 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: are you have the one of my chopped liver moment 202 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: with ma And then and she had like the new 203 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: bureau chief called me up for lunch, and uh, he 204 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: made me a job offer, and I came. And then 205 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: Morien and I became completely inseparable. And how long did 206 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: were you in that position? I was in the Washington 207 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: Bureau from nineties seven. I went into editing there. I 208 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: became the deputy bureau chief to micro Riscus who was 209 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: hired me and then after the two thousand Stalemate campaign, 210 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: I became bureau chief and then I had that job 211 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: for three years. And so covering the Clinton impeachment, did 212 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: you did you well? I mean I was in I 213 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: was in Africa at the time, huh watching the proceedings 214 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: didn't miss you know. I watched it on the BBC 215 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: on Sky TV in the in South Africa where I 216 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: was with my ex wife while she made a film, 217 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: and we watched it. For me, I always wondered, did 218 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: anybody really cover the Clinton impeachment as well as they 219 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: might have? I think what was true is that, you know, 220 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:41,119 Speaker 1: every reporter who was covering the main proceedings was probably 221 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: getting more information from the Prosecutor's office, from Ken Star's 222 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: office than they were through reporting around the president. And 223 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: mainly more people should have been reporting on what actually 224 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: had happened and how this case di up. And at 225 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: the Times, I you know, the Times was lucky in 226 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: that they have a big bureau and they sicked Uh 227 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: an investigative reporter named Don van Atta and and me 228 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: onto uh on two Stars office. And I had some 229 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: very good sources around the White House in the White House, 230 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: and also from my years of covering the legal community 231 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: in conservative legal circles. And what Don and I did 232 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: is show that it was Monica Winsky Linda Tripp. Didn't 233 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, Linda Trip didn't appear on ken Star's doorstep. 234 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: Serendipitously that ever since a very conservative magazine named The 235 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: American Spectator had surface and named Paula Jones, there was 236 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: this plan with a bunch of young, relatively unknown conservative 237 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: lawyers working to make that into the case that being 238 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: on in the basis of those are the two sticks 239 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: they were up together to get the whole thing going. 240 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because as for someone again as 241 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: a late person, you look at the arc of political coverage, 242 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: and you wonder where there are advances like glaciers almost 243 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: in retreats of the power and the authority of investigative 244 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: journalism in the post Ellsberg, in the post water Gate, 245 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: like that was a time in which the kind of 246 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: vesuvius of all this kind of work changed the course 247 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: of our country. And do you find now that when, 248 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: especially in your position now, people will come to you 249 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: like I know that if I worked at the times, 250 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: I'm assuming it wouldn't be diminished by the fact that 251 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: I was experienced and I was trained, I went to Columbia, 252 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: I'd still have my nature. And if my nature was 253 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: to come to you and say, man, I got a 254 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: story of you. I found out this stuff about this 255 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: and this and this. Do you literally have to say 256 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: to yourself, we can we have so much of that 257 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: in the paper. No, I don't say that, but when 258 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: someone is so eager a little bit, I have a 259 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: skeptical side, which is also saying, you know, we have 260 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: to independently report and see as this really the great story, 261 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: because you know, there have been a number of cases 262 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: in journalism, some of them at the times, where you're 263 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: getting all kinds of leaks from a prosecutor and you know, 264 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: well that wasn't from from a prosecutor, that was from 265 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: Iraqi defectors, mainland government officials. But where you're getting you 266 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: know only one side of it. But you know, since 267 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: you mentioned, uh, Judy Miller, I think that that's actually 268 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: a great case that I think about all the time 269 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: because I was Washington Bureau chief at that time, and 270 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: Judy didn't work for me, but she did a lot 271 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: of reporting viously in Washington and at the Bush, White 272 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: House and other places, and where the Iraqi defectors were 273 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: telling these you know, stories about Saddam supposed active w 274 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: m D programs and uh, these same defectors had told 275 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: their stories to people inside the government. So in some ways, 276 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: like the government sources pretended that they were confirming the 277 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: information given by the defectors. But it was like one 278 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: horrible feedback loop. And meanwhile that was very loud because 279 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: the defectors and the people in the government were aiding 280 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: you know, journalists to focus on these stories and in 281 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: real time. I don't think I appreciated this as I 282 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: should have. There were dissident analysts at the CIA who 283 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: you know, were very doubtful of the EVA. With your 284 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: perspective on history, do you in any way have more 285 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: sympathy for Bush forty three and Shaney in that crowd 286 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: for the way they reacted in the post nine eleven 287 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: world or did they acted improperly based on the information 288 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: they had. I think it's a combination. The Iraq connection. 289 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: We could certainly today, but I think they there was 290 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: real reason to feel after nine eleven. I was in Washington, 291 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: we had you know, tax in front of our building. 292 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: You know, it was a change world than that immediate 293 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: post nine eleven period. You know, it felt Yeah, I 294 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 1: mean on nine eleven, Uh, we did so many stories 295 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: that day out of Washington's more stories than we've ever had. 296 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: And the story list from that day still hang outside 297 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: of the Bureaucuese office. And you know, I didn't get 298 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: home until I don't know, three o'clock in the morning 299 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: or so, and drove right past the burning Pentagon, and 300 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: you know, my whole way home, you know, there were 301 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: flags already up on all the streets. And then I 302 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: got home to our house and you know, even my husband, 303 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: who isn't such a you know, overt patriot, had hung 304 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: our absurdly large Fourth of July flag, And you know, 305 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: at that point I just sat in my car and 306 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: kind of absorbed like it was changed. But that doesn't 307 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: justify such a you know, misreading of intelligence and such 308 00:20:53,880 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: an aggressive sales campaign for a war big Ston. Yeah, 309 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: supposed dangers that we're not. How long did you stay 310 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: in Washington after the attack of nine eleven, You were 311 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: there to a wint one year. I um left in 312 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: the summer of two thousand and three to go and 313 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: to do to become the managing managing Now, so this 314 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: is the beginning of a kind of a management the 315 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: management phase of your career. Correct. I mean, you were right. 316 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: It was sudden because at that point the executive editor 317 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: and managing editors of the time it's had both been fired. 318 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: And when you became managing editor, how did that condemn? 319 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: What was the time of tumult at the paper was 320 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: after the Jason Blair scandal, after big questions were being 321 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: raised about that period of leadership and also about our 322 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: pre war coverage. You know, no one came and said 323 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: we're looking for a woman. But you know I was 324 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: already in the leadership ranks as Washington Bureau chief. That's 325 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: big time job. You know that James Riston had another 326 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: lions of of journalism, and you know Bill Keller was 327 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: named the new executive editor, and I had always thought 328 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:24,239 Speaker 1: the world of him, and you know he picked me. 329 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: Was it a hard seller? Were you ready? Did you 330 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: want to go back to New York too? Yeah? I 331 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: hadn't really thought about coming back to New York, but 332 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: because Washington seems so much more pure. I don't say 333 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: it as a compliment to myself, but it was very 334 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: much my test. Yes, my kind of town. Did you 335 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: did you think about that career wise? Was management going 336 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: to become a step back for you creatively? Even now? 337 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: I mean, the idea that I could ever be managing 338 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: editor of The New York Times, which is the number 339 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: two jobs, just seemed like incredible. This was two thousand three, when, 340 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: after only two years as executive editor, Howell Raines was 341 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: forced out due to the Jason Blair plagiarism scandal. Rains 342 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: had worked closely with Abramson when she was in Washington, 343 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: and their relationship had been a difficult one. Eight years later, 344 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: she had rains old job and strong ideas about the 345 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: kind of boss she wanted to be coming up. Abramson 346 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: talks about what she wants in a story. This is 347 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to. Here's the thing. The 348 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: newspaper business is in trouble. Print readership is plummeting, and 349 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: although digital subscriptions of The New York Times have exceeded expectations, 350 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: the Times is still navigating toward a new way of 351 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: doing business. The New York Times staff has seen three 352 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: rounds of buyouts in the last four years. Despite this, 353 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: Jill Abramson didn't hesitate when she got the call from 354 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: the Times publisher Arthur Salzburger. It was the brass ring 355 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: and I jumped for it. And you know, I certainly 356 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: knew that the newspaper industry certainly has been going through 357 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: you know, rough waters, and that there are you know, 358 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: secular changes in our industry. But I also have always 359 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: known that the Times News report is like none other 360 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: and that I think it's an indispensable institution and society, 361 00:24:54,840 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: the Times, including editorial and all aspects of of our 362 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: news report, And I just have always believed that it's 363 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: so worth paying for that it you know, it didn't 364 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 1: seem to me so odd. Everyone was saying that our 365 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: pay subscription plan was a rash move and that news 366 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: wants to be free and it would never work, and 367 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: it has created a very significant revenue stream for us. 368 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 1: It was a very smart decision of Arthur's to to 369 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: go that way. And how do you juice that up 370 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: a little bit? I mean, what's the strategy you must 371 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: have some where you can how are you going to 372 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: build build build that online presence. Well, we're gonna build 373 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: on our digital subscription base for sure. What's the obstacle 374 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: to getting people to because people will say, why pay 375 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: when it's free, But it's not really free. Some of 376 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: it's free. That our strategy is smart, that what we've 377 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: on is for people who are you know, inveterate readers 378 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: and frequent users of our website, we've asked them to pay. 379 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: You know, they want to read many articles and spend 380 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: significant time on our website. And yet we have a 381 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: kind of basic good to go. You know, if you 382 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 1: want on our apps, the top stories, you can look 383 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: at those. If you come, you know, from a link 384 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: from another site, you can read what you want to read. 385 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: It's it's flexible. It lets us stay part of the 386 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: open web while asking people who can't live without to 387 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: pay something for it. Now you would come to the paper, 388 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: I would assume it's like someone once said to me 389 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: about um political figures. I remember when Giuliani was the 390 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: mayor of New York, someone said to me that very 391 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: often people will bring to these jobs the spirit of 392 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: what they're previous career was. So Giuliani's job as a 393 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: prosecutor was to catch people doing bad things. So he 394 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: brought that to the mayoralty. His job as mayor was 395 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: to catch bad people doing things. You know, uh, and 396 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: you're kind of a crime stopper, mayoralty if you will. 397 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: And I wonder if the same is true for you 398 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: in your job as executive editor, meaning you had your beat, 399 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: so to speak, you had your desk, you've had your coverage, 400 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: most of it Washington based. Do you bring to the 401 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: job your passion and and everybody knows that there's something 402 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: can be done about it? Or did you have to 403 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: did you have to broaden your passions in order to 404 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: do the job. Well, my my interests were pretty broad. 405 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: I grew up here in New York and I was 406 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: like a mini version of a culture vulture. And you know, 407 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: when when I was small and I'm a huge reader 408 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: of books and articles about many things, sub ranging appetites 409 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: going in I did and basically wouldn't. But I have 410 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: a singular passion. And the singular passion with any subject 411 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: is the story behind the store. You know, if if 412 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 1: if it's the Metropolitan Museum choose as a new head, 413 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 1: which they did Tom Campbell a couple of years ago. 414 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: I want to know, like what happened behind the scenes 415 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: and what role did a Nette de Laurent to play 416 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: and the choice and there's always like a kind of 417 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: juicy story but behind the public stage that you're onto 418 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: which events unfold. And I love that kind of story, 419 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: and it can be about anything. We have, you know, 420 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: an investigative story coming pretty soon about the world of 421 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: auctions that I'm incredibly excited about. Yeah. The other side 422 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: of the coin for me as a New Yorkers The Times, 423 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: of course, is the you go through a period in 424 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: your twenties and thirties where you like what The Times 425 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: tells you to like in terms of film and theater 426 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: and so forth, restaurants. I mean The Times as an 427 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: arbiter of culture in this city and beyond like no 428 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: other publication ever. Is that one of the roles you 429 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: play where you have to kind of deal with that, 430 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: where you know The Times has the power to aid 431 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 1: in a debt certain enterprise here or destroy them. I 432 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: think you know you mentioned restaurant reviews, and I actually 433 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: I shouldn't laugh for the one you had with Guy 434 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: fieria Um, but Frank Bruney when he was our restaurant critic, 435 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: actually because the critics often will go three times to 436 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: a restaurant before they write their reviews, and Frank was 437 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: reviewing a downtown restaurant. Uh. And I went with him 438 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: on his second visit, and I could just tell he did. 439 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: He would never say whether he liked or didn't like 440 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: at that point, but um, at one point in the meal, 441 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: he looked at me and he said, because he was 442 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: tasted what I was having. The peas in your dish 443 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,479 Speaker 1: are camp. And then his review, which was really one 444 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: of the best written things that eviscerated this restaurant. And 445 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: he described in his first visit how he had witnessed 446 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: the Poseidon Adventure of Wine Spill, which just like and 447 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: you know my brain that that restaurant did close short thereafter. 448 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: Maureen came to me once and she said, would you 449 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: like to come with Frank to review a restaurant. She said, 450 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put together a quartet of people as you 451 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: and I and Frank and a fourth and she said, 452 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: he and here's how it works to orders for us, 453 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: and he has to be able to taste everything. And 454 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: then and then when we're sitting with Frank, he takes 455 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: me through how it works. He told me how he 456 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: got the job, blah blah blah. And I said to him, 457 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: where do you live? He said, I live on the 458 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: Upper West Side. I said, you're kidding. I said, that's 459 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: the restaurant. Wise, that's the most bankrupt part of Manhattan. 460 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: He said, I know, he goes, but I have to 461 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: live near the park. I have to go running every day. 462 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: He was, I'm meeting lunch and dinner out twenty eight 463 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: out of thirty days out of the month. And it 464 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: was really really a thrill to be with him and 465 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: to have him tell me what he happened for and 466 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: what he was what he was focusing on. But you 467 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: had the thing with Fieri's restaurant, which reminded you of 468 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: the residents the paper has. But if you could say, 469 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: I mean people used to joke, consider that there was 470 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: a you know, a pipeline from Morningside Heights and the 471 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: Columbia School of Journalism to Fort Street, and an argument 472 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: could be made, I suppose I'll live to get your 473 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: opinion about this. Whether The Times was the bastion of 474 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: Ivy League types of men and women, but mostly men 475 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: in the fifties and on into the sixties. And if 476 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 1: the complexion, if the stripe, if you would the dominant stripe, 477 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: that fabric was Ivy League men for many many years. 478 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: What would you characterize it as. Now, who's coming to 479 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: you for a job and who are you hiring? I mean, 480 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: right now we're hiring you know, a lot of people 481 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: that have digital skills, as we're hiring videographers or technology. 482 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: Percentage of the people working with you now are men 483 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: and how many are women? Women are thirty seven percent. 484 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: You're a woman who's the first person in this job, 485 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering how much of that do you get 486 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: in the sense that people expect you as a woman 487 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: to help lift up that the rising tide of Jill 488 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: Abramson is going to raise all female boats now at 489 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: the time, Well, in part I expect that of myself. 490 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't expect that I can ever raise 491 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: all female boats, but I try to go out of 492 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: my way, not to the exclusion of of men. But 493 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: I do take a particular interest in the careers and 494 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: work of many of the younger women at the time. 495 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: And I'm like open about if anyone has a problem 496 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: with that, too bad. What sympathies do you have for 497 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: Howell Rains today that you didn't have two years ago, 498 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: since you took this job, I have many, Yeah, I 499 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: mean I have sympathy with the fact that he was such. 500 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: He was really a great rioter, and he had lots 501 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: of story ideas and he could see in his mind 502 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: side how he wanted them to come out. On the 503 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: other end, it was very frustrating to him when things 504 00:33:55,320 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: didn't wind up the way he hoped they were. And uh, 505 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: when I was on the receiving end of that displeasure 506 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: when he think some of the work when I was 507 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: Washington Bureau Chief that was coming from the political correspondence 508 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: in the Washington Correspondence fell short. He seemed sometimes impatient 509 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: and too quick to be angry. But I think my 510 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: sympathy is he had high standards but very little time. 511 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: Your day is so crowded with you know, I'm scheduled 512 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: with not fifteen minutes segments every day, and that, you know, 513 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 1: can make you irritable when what you most care about 514 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: is the quality of the journalism itself, and you have 515 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,919 Speaker 1: you know, you would think that would be the thing 516 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: you spend all of your time on, but it's not. 517 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: Especially now, would you say, with the financial imperatives, mean 518 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: when the time is from But I think it just 519 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: always there have been, you know, issues from the business 520 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: side of the Times and other things that like take 521 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: your mind away from a focus on what is the 522 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: smartest way, and to guns, sir, any of the things 523 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: we're covering right now. And he seemed too impatient to 524 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: me when I was Washington Bureau Chief and he was 525 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: the boss. And now I completely understand that in a 526 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: way I didn't. As someone who was a great admirer 527 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: of the Times and does depend on the Times for 528 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: the truth, I read the Times cover to cover every 529 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: even in the morning, I read half and I read 530 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: the other half of the night when I'm lying in bed. Well, 531 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: what's the first thing most people read in the Times? 532 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: They tell you the cap shuttings and the front page photos. 533 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: If they're reading the print paper, I go to one 534 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: column first because it's usually the best riding. It's the 535 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: most moving riding, which is the obituaries every morning. It's 536 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: some of the most beautiful. It's incredible. It's the little 537 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: digest bio of someone's life. It's an art. In the 538 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: midst of talking with Jill about her career, I neglected 539 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: to ask her about another important part of her life. 540 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: In May two thousand seven, early one morning, Jill Abramson 541 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: was struck by a truck and nearly killed while crossing 542 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: the street just blocks from the New York Times building. 543 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: So I called her up to find out what kind 544 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: of impact that event had on her. It's Alec Baldwin 545 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: calling for Jill Abramson. This is it's you. It's you. 546 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: Well you know we we are calling you. And Abramson 547 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: spent three weeks in Bellevue Hospital with a broken femur 548 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: and a fractured hip. Two years after her accident, she 549 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: took home out a Golden Retriever. She'll be four and April. 550 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: So then wind it back and that's when she came 551 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: into our law. Yeah, two thousand and nine, that feels right. Uh, 552 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, she was obviously a tiny thing when we 553 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: first got her. We got her as a puppy. We 554 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: didn't um adopt her. We got her from a breeder. 555 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: And you know, I didn't know it at the time 556 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: that it was you know, my husband was the one 557 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 1: who pushed hardest, and my two children also for us 558 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: to get a new dog. Are um we we had 559 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: had a dog, a terrier who had passed away. Yeah, 560 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: just a little bit before I had my accident, and uh, 561 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: you know it turned out to be, as the cliche says, 562 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: just what the doctor or uh, frankly, I did it 563 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: when I had my my two children, just ridiculously obsessed 564 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 1: with every aspect of puppy life. And my husband and 565 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,879 Speaker 1: I were at the stage of life where we were 566 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: empty nesters, and you know, I just I think we're 567 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: both built to take care of living things. And you know, 568 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: we found ourselves in you know, puppy kindergarten and you know, 569 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: worrying that that scalt you know, was the worst student 570 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: in the class, which she somewhat was. And I found, 571 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: you know that, especially late at night, walking the dog 572 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: in New York I lived downtown near the Hudson River 573 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: is the best way to kind of get rid of 574 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: whatever anxiety and intention you might have from the day's work. 575 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: And Jill Abramson's work continues every day. Her job is 576 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: to take care that the news coverage of The New 577 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 1: York Times remains unbiased, and to take care of her 578 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: special friend. She's just a bundle of constant that both 579 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: joy and trouble, as you all no doubt know from 580 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: your experience with with your dogs. This is Alec Baldwin 581 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: and you're listening to here's the thing,