WEBVTT - What is a Just Economy? 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:19.480 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:24.960 as we keep hearing things like the economy is doing well. 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:29.120 Last week the Wall Street Journal put out in favorable 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.760 article saying that they were impressed and surprised at how 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:38.960 quickly the US economy was doing and how it has rebounded. 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:41.880 And we hear about jobs reports, and we hear about 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:44.720 all sorts of things. But at the end of the day, 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:50.879 it's this push and pull between the oligarchs, right, the 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.280 mega capitalists that see the rest of us in the 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.880 ninety nine percent as just cogs and a wheel that 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.960 they grind and grind and grind out to increase their 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:08.080 profits at the expense of our health, our happiness, and 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:13.000 our ability to attain whatever version of the American dreams 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:18.680 still exists. And you know what, we all I think 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:23.600 that what has come into our forefront, and particularly again 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.680 looking at COVID nineteen and this being the time when 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.560 we really had a moment, those of us that were 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.720 privileged to take a pause and say, wait a minute, 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.560 why am I working in this way? Why am I 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:43.840 giving ten twelve hours a day, to this capitalistic machine, 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.119 to this firm, to this organization, to this company, right 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.320 to this entity, only to be spit out right, only 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:56.040 to have my wages stagnant, only to watch, as you know, 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.920 the Jeff Bezos of the world want to think the 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:04.600 Amazon employees for sending them to fucking outer space. And 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:08.080 so in my conversation today, was very excited to speak 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:13.280 with Nick Romeo, who covers policy and ideas for The 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.400 New Yorker and teaches in the Graduate School of Journalism 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:21.160 at the University of Berkeley, because he has a new book, 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:28.800 The Alternative, How to Build a Just Economy. And what 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:33.239 I loved about our conversation is that it's some things 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:36.400 that we know right, but it's other things that we 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:41.440 don't know that Are we waiting for the one percent 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.880 to give us permission? Are we waiting for the oppressors 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:50.120 to essentially decide that, oh, maybe I found my moral compass. 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.680 Are there different options and opportunities for the rest of 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.000 us that don't rely on the benevolence of people who 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.600 have showed us just how greedy they can be. So 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:04.560 in this book, The Alternative, How to Build a Just Economy, 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:11.079 Nick Romeo discusses the terrifying trends of the early twenty 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:16.120 first century, the widening inequality, environmental destruction, and the emiseration 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:21.320 of millions of workers around the world. And he talks 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:26.840 about private markets and the efficiency of public ones, but 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:33.280 basically coming to a place of is it possible to 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.880 build an economy that works for the rest of us? 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:43.560 And understand that capitalism was an idea, just like feudalism 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:50.360 was an idea, So can we reimagine something better? That 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:58.360 conversation with Nick Romeo is coming up next, folks. I 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.360 am very excited to well come to ok F Daily 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:06.000 for the very first time. Nick Romeo, who covers policy 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.960 and ideas for The New Yorker and teaches in the 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.440 Graduate School of Journalism at the University of California, Berkeley, 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:17.479 and is author of a new book that literally is 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.200 hot on your shelves right now, The Alternative How to 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:29.400 Build a Just Economy. Nick, let's start off with a 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:33.320 couple of I have so many questions, but I want 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:37.520 to start off with your definition of what a just 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:43.279 economy is right versus what we understand as a economy 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.080 that we live in right now. What does it mean 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:50.920 for you? To create a just economy. 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:55.120 Well, first, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:59.520 to talk about the book. You know. It's a good 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:03.000 question and sort of one that I'm not asked often enough. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.919 I think it's not a self evident phrase. You know, 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.400 what does a just economy mean? I would answer it 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:12.680 sort of at two levels. At the highest level, I 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:18.200 think it's one that reflects human design, and especially human 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.400 design in a kind of broadly democratic sense. So rather 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.960 than being regarded as a domain of technocratic expertise best 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.040 left to experts, I think a just economy, and this, 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:31.880 you know, flows pretty naturally from a commitment to democracy, 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.760 I think it should reflect a kind of broad scale 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.880 intentionality by people. At a more specific level, you know, 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.480 my answer would have to do with things like wealth 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:47.960 inequality and climate change. I think those are two extraordinary 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:50.920 challenges that any sort of just economy has to take 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:51.839 quite seriously. 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.919 I think about so many things when I saw the 0:05:55.960 --> 0:06:01.120 title of your book, because I think about the amount 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:06.360 of greed right that we have seen that I think 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:10.080 that most people, we've just kind of been moving through 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.320 our lives, whether you live in the United States or elsewhere, 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.760 we've been moving through our lives as cogs in a machine, 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.640 right where we've understood and kind of accepted the fact 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:25.479 that there are the top one percent that we have 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:29.000 been told or smarter, you know, have more access and 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:30.880 if we were them, we would do the same thing 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.440 that they do. And so so long as we can 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.560 keep our head above water, the rest of us are okay. 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:42.400 Then COVID hit and I think that collectively we all 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:46.080 began to really assess. Those of us that were privileged 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.560 enough to be at home and work from home, we 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.760 were able to pause and assess and see that, Wow, 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:59.360 this system really is not right. You know, where sure 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:03.400 people take taxes from us, government takes taxes, but when 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:08.240 we actually need those funds the most, it requires emergency. Right. 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.600 And when we see that people are working two three 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.120 four jobs, we make something sexy and we call it 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.960 that gig economy. Right, We make it seem like it's 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.280 fun to work for jobs in order to make ends meet. 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:27.000 I wonder how you think that our understanding of how 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:33.880 our system has been unjust right was really exacerbated during 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:39.040 COVID and now makes room for your book, your alternatives 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.800 in terms of how we are thinking, Like I just 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.760 think as workers. We've just been doing, and then there 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.920 was this great pause, and now we're thinking about what 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:50.200 we've been asked to do. 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.320 Absolutely, I mean, I think I broadly share your analysis 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.680 of the past few years. You know, in the book, 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:02.680 I talk talk a little bit about this sort of 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:08.720 default assumption that morality and justice are simply irrelevant concepts 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:13.160 in the economic sphere, and I trace this back through 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.920 a few centuries of economic and political thought. There's a 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.720 kind of tradition that says the economy kind of akin 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:25.160 to the natural world, is this law governed realm that 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.200 only scientists can understand. When they do understand it, the 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.640 laws are inevitable, they can never be changed, and so 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.920 the best you can do is just kind of struggle 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.560 to get by, or if you happen to be in 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:39.440 the top one percent, like you mentioned, you can maybe 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:44.240 congratulate yourself and feel occasional pity for other people. If 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:48.080 that so the target of a lot of critique, both 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.480 within academic economics, but also you know, by people in 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.360 the private sector and the public sector who are actually 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.199 pulling policy levers running businesses. I think at some level 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:02.800 the target of critique is this inevitable view that the 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:07.480 economy is a realm where morality has no place, and 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:10.160 all we can do is follow laws that are akin 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.920 to the laws of physics. So, you know, in the book, 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.840 I talk about a lot of people within academia who 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.679 are trying to reform economics education in order to kind 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:23.720 of expand our political imagination to say, actually, you know, 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:28.640 a lot of key decisions about sort of distribution of resources, 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.920 labor markets, quality of jobs, impacts on other people in 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.960 the natural world. These are fundamentally moral and political, and 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:41.000 to regard them as just sort of like the mechanistic 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.520 model that a lot of neoclassical economics has used is 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.119 a mistake, and it's also a mistake that really benefits 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:49.319 entrenched interests. 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:50.960 You know. 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.640 Also, I agree with you that basically COVID was this 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:58.000 little opening, a kind of clearing in the clouds where 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.559 people had a sense that the gaps in the system, 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:04.400 the fallacies and the reasoning were a little bit more 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:10.120 present and salient maybe than they had been in previous years. 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.760 I love when you said, like, open up the imagination 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:21.000 and this idea that the way that we've thought about 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.760 the economy has been like, oh, well, then there's gravity 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.880 there's capitalism, there's gravity, right like the you know, it 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.200 is just what it is. And anytime there is any 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:37.640 type of movement to think about this structure differently who 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:41.920 it is created for the system and who it's created for, 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:46.040 who benefits, who doesn't, who's left behind? How most of 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:51.320 us are one emergency bill, one emergency visit to you know, 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:55.200 the hospital, away from you know, bankruptcy, except we can't 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:59.160 actually eat apply from bankruptcy, right Like you're not a 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:03.240 corporation uberwealthy, right, So for the average person, there's no 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.480 way out. What I think about is interesting and someone 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.319 I want you to offer up some of the suggestions 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.880 that you provide and solutions that you offer in the 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:16.120 book through your analysis. Is what it seems to me 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.560 is that in order to make a change, though, there 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.600 needs to be a will to do so. And I'm 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.400 not certain that the people that are in power, that 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.960 are controlling the levers of power that are tilted towards 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.840 their favor outside of there being some type of moral 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.439 compass which I just have not seen over the past 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.400 ten years, let alone the entirety of my career in politics, 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:43.360 that there is a will that is there that they 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:50.240 are incentivized by just feeling good about not hoarding all 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:54.120 of their resources at the top and seeing that well workers, 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:58.440 these people are just expendable. So I'm wondering where will 0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.360 comes in to the solutions that you offer, and please 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.880 do share some of the communal ways of operating and 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:11.679 being like you did with examples of Patagonia and others. 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:15.880 Sure, yeah, you know, I think you're right that there 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:20.240 are certainly some folks for whom moral motivations are not 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:24.360 particularly strong, and there's not a lot of will you 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.280 know that being said, Within the book, I try to 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:31.160 bring some sort of some nuance to the analysis of 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.559 like the private sector, for example, because there are people 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.160 with a range of motivations and kind of my goal 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:42.280 is to spotlight some of the people doing really interesting 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.680 and powerful work. So to give you a few examples. 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.040 You know, people talk a lot about retiring business owners. 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.440 Estimates vary, but everyone agrees that a huge percentage of 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.360 American GDP is represented by folks who are in their 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:03.400 sixties and seve and these folks are on the point 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.400 of transition. Now, transition can take multiple forms. You could 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:11.600 sell your company or your business to private equity. You 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:13.360 can make a lot of money doing that. But then 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:18.280 private equity may fire half of your staff. They'll certainly 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:24.680 prioritize return on investment over wages and benefits for workers, 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:30.480 or say, donations to organizations that support environmental causes. Now, 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:34.200 a sale to private equity is not the only option 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.240 for retiring business owners. One chapter in my book, I 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:41.079 look at people who are converting the ownership structure of 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:45.080 their businesses to a legal vehicle called a perpetual purpose trust. 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:50.200 And just like the name suggests, it exists in perpetuity, 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:54.720 and it stipulates a purpose as the sort of defining reason, 0:13:55.840 --> 0:14:00.360 the basic motivation of the business. So rather than profit maximumation, 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:05.320 your purpose might be, well, I talk about a bakery 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:09.400 here in Oakland, California, where the purpose is to hire 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.360 folks who are formerly homeless or incarcerated and to do 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:18.160 profit sharing with employees. So now you know, anyone who 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.680 wants to buy this business in the future has to 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.720 respect that purpose. So it's sort of protecting a social 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.680 mission above the kind of standard profit maximizing one. And 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.960 you know, there are enormous businesses doing this, like you mentioned. 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.960 Patagonia is one example. So there's three billion dollar business 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:39.520 using a purpose trust model. But there are also lots 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:43.000 of smaller businesses, you know, people who might do three 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.360 to five million dollars of revenue annually, all the way 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.120 up to mid range, say fifty to one hundred million dollars. 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:51.840 And you know, if you aggregate this, it's it's it's 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.120 not a trivial part of the American economy. And so 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.720 I think there is some optimism with that kind of 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:00.640 purpose trust model, although like you say, ultimately this hinges 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:05.840 on a previous will, a previous moral commitment. So I 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.520 agree with that point. 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.520 I wonder too, there there are and I think that 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:17.080 you also do examine in other countries and other spaces 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:22.320 where there is more of a communal sense of being 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:27.360 right that if you know, and I have worked inside 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:34.080 of movements that want to create a movement around you know, 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.560 this idea that we're not all islands onto ourselves, that 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:42.920 it isn't about you know, this one wealthy person over here, 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.600 because if everyone around you right is suffering, then how 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.200 wealthy are you truly? And is there a way to 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:54.920 have a shared sense of responsibility? And you can look 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.080 at countries that you know, we talk about on this 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:03.200 show that have you know, robust healthcare systems because the 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.280 money that was being drained out by taking care of 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.480 those that were ill. It's just like, well, we can 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.480 create this, like we have the resources and the tax 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.480 dollars to do this. Again, to me, though, it comes 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:18.080 back to the sense of who is the collective weed 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:22.040 that we want to do right by? And if we were, 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.480 you know, if America was a homogenous type of place, 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.480 then I could see, oh, yeah, let's move into this 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.520 economy that is more of a shared economy, as people 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.040 have said, where the workers get to have a piece 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.920 and that incentivizes them. Didn't we have something like that 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:43.240 where businesses offered pensions. You put in this amount of 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:46.800 time for us, and then we're going to take care 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:47.080 of you. 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.680 Absolutely. You know, one thing I talk a lot about 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.040 in the book throughout is worker ownership, and they're different 0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:01.840 models and different companies that are really trying to expand 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:04.760 the percentage of American workers, but also workers around the 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.520 world who own equity in the companies for which they work. 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.199 And to your point that there used to be a 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.240 more widespread embrace of this model. You know, something I 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.920 mentioned in the book. If you think about seers department stores, 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:24.639 a once mighty American brand. You know, if if Amazon 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:29.200 today had the same level of worker ownership that Seers 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:33.359 department stores did in the nineteen fifties, Amazon workers and 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.160 this is actually from twenty eighteen, so the figures would 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.480 be higher now. But Amazon workers in twenty eighteen, each 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.520 one would have owned about three hundred and eighty thousand 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.560 dollars of equity and Amazon so, you know, think about 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:52.399 folks delivering packages, driving forklifts around warehouses. If all of 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.520 those folks had, you know, today, it would be closer 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:57.840 to a million dollars. I think Amazon stock has close 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.520 to double since twenty eighteen. If all of those folks 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.399 had hundreds of thousands of dollars of equity, that would 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:07.520 go a long way towards creating a middle class. If 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.160 you expand that model to the top one hundred businesses 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.600 in America, you know, I think that that would be 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:19.160 a pretty extraordinary change. And it's it's just worth remembering that, yes, 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.800 pensions used to be widespread, worker ownership used to be 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:27.800 much more common. There's no sort of physical law akin 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:32.840 to gravitation preventing this from being the case. Again. You know, 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.960 another thing that comes to mind is the model of 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.280 the Mandragon cooperatives in Spain, which I'm happy to talk 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:39.600 about it. 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:41.960 Yeah please please, yeah, unpack that for us. 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.280 Yes, you know, so, mandra Gon is really fascinating to me. 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.760 There a network of co ops in the northern part 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:53.520 of Spain and a huge range of industries are all 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.960 organized in this cooperative manner. So you know, they do 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:01.920 everything from manufacture of injustice components like parts of jet 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:07.399 engines or elevators, to serviced oriented things like there are 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.600 grocery stores organized according to this cooperative model. The basic 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:16.439 feature of the model is really two elements. One is 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.280 a six to one cap of highest to lowest worker pay. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.840 So if you're the CEO and I'm the lowest paid worker, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:28.000 you can never make six x what I do. So 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.200 that's a key component of their model. Another key component 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.680 is democratic governance. You know, people often talk about workplace democracy, 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.399 so what does that mean. It means that every worker 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.520 gets a vote on key decisions, and these can be 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:46.640 really impactful decisions like during the pandemic, should we decrease 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:51.879 our hours to protect our long term interests or should we, 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.399 you know, should we consider a new acquisition, do we 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.280 want to buy another company, one worker, one vote on 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.440 these decisions. So it's a kind of radically democratic model, 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:05.480 and it's also a model that limits wealth inequality. You know, 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.399 one thing I really like that you said earlier is 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:14.639 that wealth alone is sort of inadequate to give someone 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.920 a good life. I quote in the book an engineer 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:23.080 at Mandragon who had actually declined some competing job offers 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:25.680 elsewhere in Spain where he would have made a lot 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:27.879 more money, And what he said to me was, you know, 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:30.000 I'd rather live here with a lot of friends than 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:36.040 live alone like a king. I think the American dream, unfortunately, 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.679 is closer to living alone like a king. What I 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.280 like about his comment is the suggestion that that's actually 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:46.080 sort of a nightmare, right, that doesn't respond to sort 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:50.080 of a basic aspect of humans, which is we like community, 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:54.320 we like other people, and radical wealth inequality tends to 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:58.119 erode those common bonds that make for a good life. 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.720 Let me ask you this, what your thoughts then? In 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:05.200 twenty twenty three, in the summer, you know, we had 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:10.120 so many different industries were on strike, right, You had 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:13.959 the writers, you had the actors, you had you know, 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:18.600 the auto industry, you had. You know, all of these 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:24.600 different groups were going on strike, and unions are seeing 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:29.199 a resurgence in a way right to increase worker protections, 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.359 pay and all of these things. How does that pair 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:36.960 into again, not just asking for the bare minimum, right 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:41.199 like bathroom breaks right like, you know, not just asking 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:44.080 for the bare minimum. But how does that kind of 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:49.399 movement pair with what you're offering in your book, which 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:54.520 is this robust alternative, multiple alternatives. We don't have to 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.240 live this way under this system. 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:04.159 I think unions are an essential part of winning some 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:08.080 of these concessions, you know, whether that's living wages or 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:13.840 actual equity ownership in companies, more humane working conditions, more 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:20.120 meaningful and satisfying jobs. You know, collective bargaining has been 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:23.359 crucial to keeping wealth inequality in check. We know that 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:27.160 from the middle decades of the twentieth century, when union 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:31.720 rates were high and inequality was relatively low. There are 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:36.280 strong legislative headwinds, it's tough to organize. The field is 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:40.120 kind of tilted against unions at this point. I think 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:45.000 on doing that would be a great sort of policy goal. 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:48.400 You know, one thing I talk a little bit about 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:52.159 in the book, though, is that just like you said, 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:56.360 it's sort of it's one thing to win a bare minimum, right, 0:22:56.520 --> 0:23:00.959 like maybe just enough of a wage increase that folks 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:04.960 can pay the rent, that they can afford food. But 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:12.360 if you actually think about the kind of financial necessities 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.480 in our current economy, given the cost of housing, the 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:20.000 cost of a college education, wage increases alone are pretty 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:23.240 unlikely to ever build up the sort of generational wealth 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:27.480 that would allow people to buy a home in most 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:30.520 parts of America to pay for college education for their 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:33.760 kids or their grandkids. I think for that level of 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:38.240 wealth accumulation, we need to be thinking about more than wages. 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:42.720 We need to be thinking about worker ownership, where value 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:46.480 creation doesn't just flow away to shareholders, it goes directly 0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:49.480 to people who are day in and day out doing 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:53.040 the work, whether that's at an Amazon or really anywhere else. 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.439 Last question for you is a political one, you know, 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:03.639 a deeply political one. Is that you know, we're in 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:09.080 the midst of the beginning of a most consequential presidential 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:14.199 election this country I think has ever seen. And you know, 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:20.840 we're have one party that is hell bent on you know, 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:25.680 authoritarianism right and a king right and holding up in 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:29.280 the recreation of a king and another that is struggling 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:33.000 to find a message that resonates. And we always say, oh, 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:35.760 it's the economy, it's the economy. But how we talk 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:38.879 about the economy and what we say about the economy 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:43.280 doesn't from a political sphere, doesn't ever seem to land 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:46.119 with workers in an a layman space. And so if 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:49.400 you were offering up right to Biden, like we need 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:54.679 to break open and have like you said, deep imagination, right, like, 0:24:55.400 --> 0:25:00.119 give people who are suffering from hopelessness a sense of 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:02.679 what is possible, what would you say. 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:07.959 Well, that's a tricky question, but I guess you know, 0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:11.600 my advice would be to focus on some of these 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:14.720 core economic issues. And you know, two things in particular 0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:22.080 come to mind. One is bringing industrial jobs back to America. 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:27.600 You know, the Inflation Reduction Act with a pretty impressive 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:30.600 distance in that direction. But I think there's a sort 0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:32.960 of a lot more to do, both in communicating and 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:36.359 sort of celebrating what's been achieved, but also in actually 0:25:36.400 --> 0:25:42.440 achieving more. You know, I think that really since NAFTA 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:47.199 in the early nineties, the Democrats have not worked particularly 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:50.520 hard for the working class. They've cared much more about 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:55.800 the sort of wealthier sectors of the economy. So one 0:25:56.480 --> 0:26:01.480 key element I think is actually creating industrial jobs here 0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:06.040 in America. This is potentially bipartisan as well. Right, there 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:09.240 are folks on the right who, whatever you think of 0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:12.520 their motives, they're concerned about supply chain security, they're concerned 0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:16.920 about national security, they want more production onshore. So that's 0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:19.520 kind of one point. And then I guess the second point, 0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:21.679 not to be too much of a broken record, would be, 0:26:23.000 --> 0:26:28.520 you know, to make say, corporate tax breaks, if you 0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:30.640 have to have them, what if all of those were 0:26:30.640 --> 0:26:36.080 contingent on extending worker ownership to all employees. So again, 0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:40.360 if we think about the one hundred largest companies in America, 0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:45.399 if they adopted even modest levels of worker ownership like 0:26:45.480 --> 0:26:48.920 Sears had in the nineteen fifties, you know, we could 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:52.800 have millions of workers with hundreds of thousands of dollars 0:26:52.800 --> 0:26:56.080 in equity. And I think that's the sort of change 0:26:56.160 --> 0:27:00.320 to folks circumstances that the Democrats, if they could point 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:02.520 to that and say, well, look, now you have four 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:07.879 hundred thousand dollars we believe in the working class, that 0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:10.480