1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: as we keep hearing things like the economy is doing well. 4 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: Last week the Wall Street Journal put out in favorable 5 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: article saying that they were impressed and surprised at how 6 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: quickly the US economy was doing and how it has rebounded. 7 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: And we hear about jobs reports, and we hear about 8 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: all sorts of things. But at the end of the day, 9 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: it's this push and pull between the oligarchs, right, the 10 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: mega capitalists that see the rest of us in the 11 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: ninety nine percent as just cogs and a wheel that 12 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: they grind and grind and grind out to increase their 13 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: profits at the expense of our health, our happiness, and 14 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: our ability to attain whatever version of the American dreams 15 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: still exists. And you know what, we all I think 16 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: that what has come into our forefront, and particularly again 17 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: looking at COVID nineteen and this being the time when 18 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: we really had a moment, those of us that were 19 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: privileged to take a pause and say, wait a minute, 20 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: why am I working in this way? Why am I 21 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: giving ten twelve hours a day, to this capitalistic machine, 22 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 1: to this firm, to this organization, to this company, right 23 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: to this entity, only to be spit out right, only 24 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: to have my wages stagnant, only to watch, as you know, 25 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: the Jeff Bezos of the world want to think the 26 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: Amazon employees for sending them to fucking outer space. And 27 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: so in my conversation today, was very excited to speak 28 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: with Nick Romeo, who covers policy and ideas for The 29 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: New Yorker and teaches in the Graduate School of Journalism 30 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: at the University of Berkeley, because he has a new book, 31 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: The Alternative, How to Build a Just Economy. And what 32 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: I loved about our conversation is that it's some things 33 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: that we know right, but it's other things that we 34 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: don't know that Are we waiting for the one percent 35 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: to give us permission? Are we waiting for the oppressors 36 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: to essentially decide that, oh, maybe I found my moral compass. 37 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: Are there different options and opportunities for the rest of 38 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: us that don't rely on the benevolence of people who 39 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: have showed us just how greedy they can be. So 40 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: in this book, The Alternative, How to Build a Just Economy, 41 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: Nick Romeo discusses the terrifying trends of the early twenty 42 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: first century, the widening inequality, environmental destruction, and the emiseration 43 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: of millions of workers around the world. And he talks 44 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: about private markets and the efficiency of public ones, but 45 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: basically coming to a place of is it possible to 46 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: build an economy that works for the rest of us? 47 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: And understand that capitalism was an idea, just like feudalism 48 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: was an idea, So can we reimagine something better? That 49 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: conversation with Nick Romeo is coming up next, folks. I 50 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: am very excited to well come to ok F Daily 51 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: for the very first time. Nick Romeo, who covers policy 52 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: and ideas for The New Yorker and teaches in the 53 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: Graduate School of Journalism at the University of California, Berkeley, 54 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: and is author of a new book that literally is 55 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: hot on your shelves right now, The Alternative How to 56 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: Build a Just Economy. Nick, let's start off with a 57 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: couple of I have so many questions, but I want 58 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: to start off with your definition of what a just 59 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: economy is right versus what we understand as a economy 60 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: that we live in right now. What does it mean 61 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: for you? To create a just economy. 62 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: Well, first, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited 63 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: to talk about the book. You know. It's a good 64 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: question and sort of one that I'm not asked often enough. 65 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 2: I think it's not a self evident phrase. You know, 66 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: what does a just economy mean? I would answer it 67 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: sort of at two levels. At the highest level, I 68 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: think it's one that reflects human design, and especially human 69 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: design in a kind of broadly democratic sense. So rather 70 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 2: than being regarded as a domain of technocratic expertise best 71 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: left to experts, I think a just economy, and this, 72 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: you know, flows pretty naturally from a commitment to democracy, 73 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: I think it should reflect a kind of broad scale 74 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: intentionality by people. At a more specific level, you know, 75 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 2: my answer would have to do with things like wealth 76 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: inequality and climate change. I think those are two extraordinary 77 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: challenges that any sort of just economy has to take 78 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 2: quite seriously. 79 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: I think about so many things when I saw the 80 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: title of your book, because I think about the amount 81 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: of greed right that we have seen that I think 82 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: that most people, we've just kind of been moving through 83 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: our lives, whether you live in the United States or elsewhere, 84 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: we've been moving through our lives as cogs in a machine, 85 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: right where we've understood and kind of accepted the fact 86 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: that there are the top one percent that we have 87 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: been told or smarter, you know, have more access and 88 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: if we were them, we would do the same thing 89 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: that they do. And so so long as we can 90 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: keep our head above water, the rest of us are okay. 91 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: Then COVID hit and I think that collectively we all 92 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: began to really assess. Those of us that were privileged 93 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: enough to be at home and work from home, we 94 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: were able to pause and assess and see that, Wow, 95 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: this system really is not right. You know, where sure 96 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: people take taxes from us, government takes taxes, but when 97 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: we actually need those funds the most, it requires emergency. Right. 98 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: And when we see that people are working two three 99 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: four jobs, we make something sexy and we call it 100 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: that gig economy. Right, We make it seem like it's 101 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: fun to work for jobs in order to make ends meet. 102 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: I wonder how you think that our understanding of how 103 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: our system has been unjust right was really exacerbated during 104 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: COVID and now makes room for your book, your alternatives 105 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: in terms of how we are thinking, Like I just 106 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: think as workers. We've just been doing, and then there 107 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: was this great pause, and now we're thinking about what 108 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: we've been asked to do. 109 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, I think I broadly share your analysis 110 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: of the past few years. You know, in the book, 111 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: I talk talk a little bit about this sort of 112 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: default assumption that morality and justice are simply irrelevant concepts 113 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: in the economic sphere, and I trace this back through 114 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: a few centuries of economic and political thought. There's a 115 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: kind of tradition that says the economy kind of akin 116 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: to the natural world, is this law governed realm that 117 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 2: only scientists can understand. When they do understand it, the 118 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: laws are inevitable, they can never be changed, and so 119 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: the best you can do is just kind of struggle 120 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: to get by, or if you happen to be in 121 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: the top one percent, like you mentioned, you can maybe 122 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 2: congratulate yourself and feel occasional pity for other people. If 123 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: that so the target of a lot of critique, both 124 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: within academic economics, but also you know, by people in 125 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 2: the private sector and the public sector who are actually 126 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 2: pulling policy levers running businesses. I think at some level 127 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 2: the target of critique is this inevitable view that the 128 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: economy is a realm where morality has no place, and 129 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: all we can do is follow laws that are akin 130 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: to the laws of physics. So, you know, in the book, 131 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 2: I talk about a lot of people within academia who 132 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 2: are trying to reform economics education in order to kind 133 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: of expand our political imagination to say, actually, you know, 134 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: a lot of key decisions about sort of distribution of resources, 135 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: labor markets, quality of jobs, impacts on other people in 136 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 2: the natural world. These are fundamentally moral and political, and 137 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: to regard them as just sort of like the mechanistic 138 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: model that a lot of neoclassical economics has used is 139 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,119 Speaker 2: a mistake, and it's also a mistake that really benefits 140 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 2: entrenched interests. 141 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: You know. 142 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 2: Also, I agree with you that basically COVID was this 143 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: little opening, a kind of clearing in the clouds where 144 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 2: people had a sense that the gaps in the system, 145 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: the fallacies and the reasoning were a little bit more 146 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: present and salient maybe than they had been in previous years. 147 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: I love when you said, like, open up the imagination 148 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: and this idea that the way that we've thought about 149 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: the economy has been like, oh, well, then there's gravity 150 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: there's capitalism, there's gravity, right like the you know, it 151 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: is just what it is. And anytime there is any 152 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: type of movement to think about this structure differently who 153 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: it is created for the system and who it's created for, 154 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: who benefits, who doesn't, who's left behind? How most of 155 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: us are one emergency bill, one emergency visit to you know, 156 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: the hospital, away from you know, bankruptcy, except we can't 157 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: actually eat apply from bankruptcy, right Like you're not a 158 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: corporation uberwealthy, right, So for the average person, there's no 159 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: way out. What I think about is interesting and someone 160 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: I want you to offer up some of the suggestions 161 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: that you provide and solutions that you offer in the 162 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: book through your analysis. Is what it seems to me 163 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: is that in order to make a change, though, there 164 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: needs to be a will to do so. And I'm 165 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: not certain that the people that are in power, that 166 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: are controlling the levers of power that are tilted towards 167 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: their favor outside of there being some type of moral 168 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: compass which I just have not seen over the past 169 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: ten years, let alone the entirety of my career in politics, 170 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: that there is a will that is there that they 171 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: are incentivized by just feeling good about not hoarding all 172 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: of their resources at the top and seeing that well workers, 173 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: these people are just expendable. So I'm wondering where will 174 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: comes in to the solutions that you offer, and please 175 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: do share some of the communal ways of operating and 176 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: being like you did with examples of Patagonia and others. 177 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, you know, I think you're right that there 178 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 2: are certainly some folks for whom moral motivations are not 179 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: particularly strong, and there's not a lot of will you 180 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 2: know that being said, Within the book, I try to 181 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: bring some sort of some nuance to the analysis of 182 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 2: like the private sector, for example, because there are people 183 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: with a range of motivations and kind of my goal 184 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: is to spotlight some of the people doing really interesting 185 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 2: and powerful work. So to give you a few examples. 186 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: You know, people talk a lot about retiring business owners. 187 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 2: Estimates vary, but everyone agrees that a huge percentage of 188 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: American GDP is represented by folks who are in their 189 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: sixties and seve and these folks are on the point 190 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: of transition. Now, transition can take multiple forms. You could 191 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 2: sell your company or your business to private equity. You 192 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: can make a lot of money doing that. But then 193 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: private equity may fire half of your staff. They'll certainly 194 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 2: prioritize return on investment over wages and benefits for workers, 195 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: or say, donations to organizations that support environmental causes. Now, 196 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 2: a sale to private equity is not the only option 197 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: for retiring business owners. One chapter in my book, I 198 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 2: look at people who are converting the ownership structure of 199 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 2: their businesses to a legal vehicle called a perpetual purpose trust. 200 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 2: And just like the name suggests, it exists in perpetuity, 201 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: and it stipulates a purpose as the sort of defining reason, 202 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 2: the basic motivation of the business. So rather than profit maximumation, 203 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 2: your purpose might be, well, I talk about a bakery 204 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: here in Oakland, California, where the purpose is to hire 205 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: folks who are formerly homeless or incarcerated and to do 206 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 2: profit sharing with employees. So now you know, anyone who 207 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: wants to buy this business in the future has to 208 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 2: respect that purpose. So it's sort of protecting a social 209 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 2: mission above the kind of standard profit maximizing one. And 210 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: you know, there are enormous businesses doing this, like you mentioned. 211 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: Patagonia is one example. So there's three billion dollar business 212 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 2: using a purpose trust model. But there are also lots 213 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: of smaller businesses, you know, people who might do three 214 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: to five million dollars of revenue annually, all the way 215 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: up to mid range, say fifty to one hundred million dollars. 216 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: And you know, if you aggregate this, it's it's it's 217 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 2: not a trivial part of the American economy. And so 218 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: I think there is some optimism with that kind of 219 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 2: purpose trust model, although like you say, ultimately this hinges 220 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: on a previous will, a previous moral commitment. So I 221 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: agree with that point. 222 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: I wonder too, there there are and I think that 223 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: you also do examine in other countries and other spaces 224 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: where there is more of a communal sense of being 225 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: right that if you know, and I have worked inside 226 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: of movements that want to create a movement around you know, 227 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: this idea that we're not all islands onto ourselves, that 228 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: it isn't about you know, this one wealthy person over here, 229 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: because if everyone around you right is suffering, then how 230 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: wealthy are you truly? And is there a way to 231 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: have a shared sense of responsibility? And you can look 232 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: at countries that you know, we talk about on this 233 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: show that have you know, robust healthcare systems because the 234 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: money that was being drained out by taking care of 235 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: those that were ill. It's just like, well, we can 236 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: create this, like we have the resources and the tax 237 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: dollars to do this. Again, to me, though, it comes 238 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: back to the sense of who is the collective weed 239 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: that we want to do right by? And if we were, 240 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, if America was a homogenous type of place, 241 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: then I could see, oh, yeah, let's move into this 242 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: economy that is more of a shared economy, as people 243 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: have said, where the workers get to have a piece 244 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: and that incentivizes them. Didn't we have something like that 245 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: where businesses offered pensions. You put in this amount of 246 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: time for us, and then we're going to take care 247 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: of you. 248 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know, one thing I talk a lot about 249 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: in the book throughout is worker ownership, and they're different 250 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: models and different companies that are really trying to expand 251 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: the percentage of American workers, but also workers around the 252 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: world who own equity in the companies for which they work. 253 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 2: And to your point that there used to be a 254 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: more widespread embrace of this model. You know, something I 255 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 2: mentioned in the book. If you think about seers department stores, 256 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: a once mighty American brand. You know, if if Amazon 257 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: today had the same level of worker ownership that Seers 258 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 2: department stores did in the nineteen fifties, Amazon workers and 259 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 2: this is actually from twenty eighteen, so the figures would 260 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: be higher now. But Amazon workers in twenty eighteen, each 261 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: one would have owned about three hundred and eighty thousand 262 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 2: dollars of equity and Amazon so, you know, think about 263 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 2: folks delivering packages, driving forklifts around warehouses. If all of 264 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: those folks had, you know, today, it would be closer 265 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: to a million dollars. I think Amazon stock has close 266 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: to double since twenty eighteen. If all of those folks 267 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 2: had hundreds of thousands of dollars of equity, that would 268 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: go a long way towards creating a middle class. If 269 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 2: you expand that model to the top one hundred businesses 270 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: in America, you know, I think that that would be 271 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 2: a pretty extraordinary change. And it's it's just worth remembering that, yes, 272 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: pensions used to be widespread, worker ownership used to be 273 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: much more common. There's no sort of physical law akin 274 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: to gravitation preventing this from being the case. Again. You know, 275 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: another thing that comes to mind is the model of 276 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 2: the Mandragon cooperatives in Spain, which I'm happy to talk 277 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 2: about it. 278 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: Yeah please please, yeah, unpack that for us. 279 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 2: Yes, you know, so, mandra Gon is really fascinating to me. 280 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: There a network of co ops in the northern part 281 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: of Spain and a huge range of industries are all 282 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: organized in this cooperative manner. So you know, they do 283 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 2: everything from manufacture of injustice components like parts of jet 284 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 2: engines or elevators, to serviced oriented things like there are 285 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: grocery stores organized according to this cooperative model. The basic 286 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 2: feature of the model is really two elements. One is 287 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: a six to one cap of highest to lowest worker pay. 288 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 2: So if you're the CEO and I'm the lowest paid worker, 289 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 2: you can never make six x what I do. So 290 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 2: that's a key component of their model. Another key component 291 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 2: is democratic governance. You know, people often talk about workplace democracy, 292 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 2: so what does that mean. It means that every worker 293 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 2: gets a vote on key decisions, and these can be 294 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 2: really impactful decisions like during the pandemic, should we decrease 295 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 2: our hours to protect our long term interests or should we, 296 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 2: you know, should we consider a new acquisition, do we 297 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: want to buy another company, one worker, one vote on 298 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 2: these decisions. So it's a kind of radically democratic model, 299 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 2: and it's also a model that limits wealth inequality. You know, 300 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 2: one thing I really like that you said earlier is 301 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 2: that wealth alone is sort of inadequate to give someone 302 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 2: a good life. I quote in the book an engineer 303 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: at Mandragon who had actually declined some competing job offers 304 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 2: elsewhere in Spain where he would have made a lot 305 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 2: more money, And what he said to me was, you know, 306 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 2: I'd rather live here with a lot of friends than 307 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 2: live alone like a king. I think the American dream, unfortunately, 308 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 2: is closer to living alone like a king. What I 309 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 2: like about his comment is the suggestion that that's actually 310 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: sort of a nightmare, right, that doesn't respond to sort 311 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: of a basic aspect of humans, which is we like community, 312 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: we like other people, and radical wealth inequality tends to 313 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 2: erode those common bonds that make for a good life. 314 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, what your thoughts then? In 315 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, in the summer, you know, we had 316 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: so many different industries were on strike, right, You had 317 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,959 Speaker 1: the writers, you had the actors, you had you know, 318 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: the auto industry, you had. You know, all of these 319 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: different groups were going on strike, and unions are seeing 320 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: a resurgence in a way right to increase worker protections, 321 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: pay and all of these things. How does that pair 322 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: into again, not just asking for the bare minimum, right 323 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 1: like bathroom breaks right like, you know, not just asking 324 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: for the bare minimum. But how does that kind of 325 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: movement pair with what you're offering in your book, which 326 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: is this robust alternative, multiple alternatives. We don't have to 327 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: live this way under this system. 328 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 2: I think unions are an essential part of winning some 329 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: of these concessions, you know, whether that's living wages or 330 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: actual equity ownership in companies, more humane working conditions, more 331 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 2: meaningful and satisfying jobs. You know, collective bargaining has been 332 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: crucial to keeping wealth inequality in check. We know that 333 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 2: from the middle decades of the twentieth century, when union 334 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 2: rates were high and inequality was relatively low. There are 335 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: strong legislative headwinds, it's tough to organize. The field is 336 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 2: kind of tilted against unions at this point. I think 337 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: on doing that would be a great sort of policy goal. 338 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 2: You know, one thing I talk a little bit about 339 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 2: in the book, though, is that just like you said, 340 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 2: it's sort of it's one thing to win a bare minimum, right, 341 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,959 Speaker 2: like maybe just enough of a wage increase that folks 342 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 2: can pay the rent, that they can afford food. But 343 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 2: if you actually think about the kind of financial necessities 344 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 2: in our current economy, given the cost of housing, the 345 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: cost of a college education, wage increases alone are pretty 346 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: unlikely to ever build up the sort of generational wealth 347 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 2: that would allow people to buy a home in most 348 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 2: parts of America to pay for college education for their 349 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 2: kids or their grandkids. I think for that level of 350 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: wealth accumulation, we need to be thinking about more than wages. 351 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: We need to be thinking about worker ownership, where value 352 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: creation doesn't just flow away to shareholders, it goes directly 353 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: to people who are day in and day out doing 354 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: the work, whether that's at an Amazon or really anywhere else. 355 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: Last question for you is a political one, you know, 356 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: a deeply political one. Is that you know, we're in 357 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: the midst of the beginning of a most consequential presidential 358 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: election this country I think has ever seen. And you know, 359 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: we're have one party that is hell bent on you know, 360 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: authoritarianism right and a king right and holding up in 361 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: the recreation of a king and another that is struggling 362 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: to find a message that resonates. And we always say, oh, 363 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: it's the economy, it's the economy. But how we talk 364 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: about the economy and what we say about the economy 365 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: doesn't from a political sphere, doesn't ever seem to land 366 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: with workers in an a layman space. And so if 367 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 1: you were offering up right to Biden, like we need 368 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: to break open and have like you said, deep imagination, right, like, 369 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: give people who are suffering from hopelessness a sense of 370 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: what is possible, what would you say. 371 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 2: Well, that's a tricky question, but I guess you know, 372 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: my advice would be to focus on some of these 373 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: core economic issues. And you know, two things in particular 374 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 2: come to mind. One is bringing industrial jobs back to America. 375 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: You know, the Inflation Reduction Act with a pretty impressive 376 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 2: distance in that direction. But I think there's a sort 377 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 2: of a lot more to do, both in communicating and 378 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 2: sort of celebrating what's been achieved, but also in actually 379 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 2: achieving more. You know, I think that really since NAFTA 380 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 2: in the early nineties, the Democrats have not worked particularly 381 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: hard for the working class. They've cared much more about 382 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: the sort of wealthier sectors of the economy. So one 383 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 2: key element I think is actually creating industrial jobs here 384 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: in America. This is potentially bipartisan as well. Right, there 385 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 2: are folks on the right who, whatever you think of 386 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 2: their motives, they're concerned about supply chain security, they're concerned 387 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 2: about national security, they want more production onshore. So that's 388 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 2: kind of one point. And then I guess the second point, 389 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 2: not to be too much of a broken record, would be, 390 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 2: you know, to make say, corporate tax breaks, if you 391 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 2: have to have them, what if all of those were 392 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: contingent on extending worker ownership to all employees. So again, 393 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 2: if we think about the one hundred largest companies in America, 394 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 2: if they adopted even modest levels of worker ownership like 395 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 2: Sears had in the nineteen fifties, you know, we could 396 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 2: have millions of workers with hundreds of thousands of dollars 397 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 2: in equity. And I think that's the sort of change 398 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: to folks circumstances that the Democrats, if they could point 399 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: to that and say, well, look, now you have four 400 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars we believe in the working class, that 401 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 2: would not be a hollow message, right, That would be 402 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 2: a real achievement. 403 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, Nick Romeo, thank you so much for making the 404 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: time for WOKF folks. The book is the Alternative How 405 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: to Build a Just Economy and it is out now, 406 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: so get it Nick. I hope that you come back 407 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: and join us again. This was a really illuminating conversation 408 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: for me on how to think about the economy and 409 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: talk about it differently. So appreciate you. 410 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. 411 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on WOKF 412 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: as always, power to the people and to all the people. Power, 413 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.