1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is you and me both. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: I know you may not want to hear this, but 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving is just around the corner, and with it comes 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: lots of cooking, lots of eating, and at least in 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: some households, lots of warnings about what topics we can't 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: bring up with guests around the dinner table. You know, 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: now more than ever, disagreements over everything from climate change 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: to what books kids could read, to you know, just 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: name it. Everything seems to derail what should be you know, 10 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: pleasant festive gatherings. So what are we supposed to do? 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: Talk about the weather all night? Fortunately, there are people 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: out there who are highly skilled at navigating difficult conversations, 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: and today we're going to hear from two of them. Later, 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: I'll be speaking with United States Ambassador to the United Nations, 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: Linda Thomas Greenfield, who's been doing the incredibly delicate. 16 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 2: Work of diplomacy for decades. 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: But first, I'm talking to a mom of three kids 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: from Paducah, Kentucky, who co hosts a podcast that's all 19 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: about tackling divisive topics. Sarah Stuart Holland started the Pantsuit 20 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: Politics podcast with Beth Silvers back in twenty fifteen. When 21 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: they began, Sarah was a self described progressive Democrat and 22 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: Beth was a registered Republican. Now together they've waded through 23 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: the last two presidential elections, the COVID pandemic, Harrius culture wars, 24 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: sometimes agreeing, sometimes disagreeing, but always bringing honesty and empathy 25 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: to the conversation. They've also written two books. The first, 26 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: which has become a book club standard, is called I 27 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: Think You're Wrong, But I'm Listening, A Guide to grace 28 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: filled political Conversation. They followed that one up with now 29 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: What How to move forward when we're divided basically about everything. 30 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 1: I happen to know Sarah because she was an intern 31 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: on my first presidential campaign, and I'm delighted to be 32 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: speaking with her again. 33 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: So welcome to the show. 34 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 3: Sarah, thank you for having me. 35 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: We know each other because you interned on my two 36 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: thousand and eight campaign for president. Then you went on 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: to work for a United States senator. But then you 38 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: left Washington, DC for your hometown in Kentucky. I've been 39 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: to your hometown. You and I have seen each other 40 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: there in Paducah, Kentucky. First, what led you to move 41 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: back there and Secondly, can you describe Paducah For people 42 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: who've never been there, have no idea where it is. 43 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 4: Well, first of all, everybody should come visit. It's a 44 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 4: fabulous place. Paduca sits on the confluence of the Ohio 45 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 4: and the Mississippi River, and so we you know, I 46 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 4: can be in Illinois, I can be in Missouri, I 47 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 4: can be Tennessee at any moment. And Paduca is a 48 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 4: very interesting place. So I know, you know some of 49 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 4: this history. We had a gaseous diffusion plant built in 50 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,679 Speaker 4: the fifties and sixties. 51 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,399 Speaker 3: That really changed our community. It brought in a lot. 52 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 4: Of workers to build the plant, and then it brought 53 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 4: in a lot of higher educated people to run the plant, 54 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 4: and you know, they sort of demanded these parts of 55 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 4: the town that didn't exist before, Like we have a symphony. 56 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 4: This tiny little town in Kentucky has a symphony. And 57 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 4: those factors really I think changed the fabric of the 58 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 4: town over time. The plant has now been closed down, 59 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 4: as you know, it's the long, decades long process to 60 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 4: close up something like that. And in the nineties, I 61 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 4: think because of some of those those affinities from the 62 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 4: plant were closing, they had this artist relocation program where 63 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 4: they would offer artists from around the country a chance 64 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 4: to move to Paduca and buy a house for a 65 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 4: dollar and people said. 66 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 3: Yes, I would like to do that. 67 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 4: So we had this influence of artists. We have a 68 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 4: big quilt festival that happens every year, and they really 69 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 4: changed the town. I think that was seen as like 70 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 4: a transactional thing, and there is not this anticipation that 71 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 4: you invite an artist community into your town. And in 72 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,119 Speaker 4: the same way the plant changed the town, they changed 73 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 4: the town. And so we are in a very red state, 74 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 4: but Paduca proper, the city itself is pretty blue. And 75 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 4: you know, when I moved back, I think your book 76 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 4: It Takes a Village was way ahead of its time. 77 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 4: I really feel like it's having its moment now. But 78 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 4: that's what I wanted. I wanted a village. I wanted 79 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 4: to have children, and I wanted to feel that support. 80 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 4: I grew up with great grandparents and grandparents and you know, 81 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 4: church community just wrapping its arm around me and rooting 82 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 4: for me my whole childhood. 83 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: And I wanted that for my children. And so I 84 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 3: was like, you. 85 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 4: Want to move back to Paduca And he was like, 86 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 4: I don't know if I do. And I was like, well, 87 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 4: I'm gonna go, so I hope. 88 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: You joined me, and he did. He did. 89 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 3: I moved back six months pregnant. 90 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: Was he also from Paducah? 91 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 3: No, he's from Atlanta, Okay. 92 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 4: And so we moved back in two thousand and nine 93 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 4: when I was six months pregnant with my first son, Griffin. 94 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 5: Wow. 95 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: Well, you're an eighth generation Kentuckian, but you're also a 96 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: progressive Democrat. And as you say, you're living in Paducah, which, 97 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: as we have seen all across the country, more urban 98 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: areas are often blue in a much larger suburban, exurban 99 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: rural region that is red. And so you differ politically 100 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: from you know, a lot of your fellow community members, 101 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: even members of your own family. You've talked about, you 102 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: know the fact that your father is a Trump voter. 103 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: And how have you navigated your political differences with somebody 104 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: that you really love? Has anything changed in your views 105 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: or his? 106 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 3: It's been a long journey, you know. 107 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 4: I think the zenith of our difficulty was definitely the 108 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 4: twenty sixteen election. 109 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: Like you live that too, it's obviously. 110 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember that, yeah, for sure, And I think 111 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 4: it was a lot of people's experience, right. I mean 112 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 4: at one point he tried to unfront me on Facebook, 113 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 4: and I said, We're not We're not going to do that. 114 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 3: We're not going to do that. 115 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 4: We're going to stay in relationship with each other. And 116 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 4: that's what we talk about all the podcast, and you know, 117 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 4: that's what we work through with our listeners, like this 118 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 4: is a long game. We are trying to influence each other, 119 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 4: not shame or in one conversation, debate each other into agreement, 120 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 4: because it never works like that. I tried it for 121 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 4: so long, for twenty years. I tried like sending the 122 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,559 Speaker 4: Atlantic long read in the policy paper and being like, see, 123 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 4: this is how it should be, and thinking that's what 124 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 4: was going to convince people. With my my dad, you know, 125 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 4: my dad is loving and supportive, and he was thrilled 126 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 4: that I was coming on this podcast to talk to you, 127 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 4: Like it's just you know, he thinks I think he 128 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 4: is so proud of me, which which fuels that connection 129 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 4: and keeps the trust and keeps us focusing back in 130 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 4: on each other because politics is not the entirety. 131 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: Of our relationship exactly, and it shouldn't be the entirety 132 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: of anybody's relationship, But of course that requires either both 133 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: individuals or both groups of people to do what you 134 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: and Beth advocate, which is spend time with people that 135 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: you don't agree with, try to develop trust between you, 136 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: find other ways of relating. 137 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: But it's hard. 138 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: It is hard in it. 139 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 4: You know, we get listeners and people in our community 140 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 4: and you can hear like, just can you just tell 141 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 4: me the math equation for when it actually is okay 142 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 4: to unfriend my uncle on Facebook? Like can if he 143 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 4: comments this thing and he says this word, is it 144 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 4: okay for me to cut him off? 145 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: Right? 146 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 4: And we always say like, we can't give you that. 147 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 4: You know, we wrote I think you're wrong, but I'm listening, 148 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 4: and I joke like people would go okay, but I 149 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 4: listened and I still think they're wrong. 150 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: Now what do I do? 151 00:07:59,080 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 3: So our other book? 152 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 4: Now, what is when we really try to say okay, 153 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 4: but what are we talking at? What relationship are we 154 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 4: talking about? Are we talking about a stranger you're fighting 155 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 4: with on Facebook? Are we talking about your dad? Are 156 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 4: we talking about your coworker? Because all that different context 157 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 4: of connection really matters, and we don't want it to. 158 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 4: We want like the overarching thing to fuel the whole conversation, 159 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 4: and we'll just debate it and obviously this is what's 160 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 4: wrong or you're wrong, and it just can't be like that. 161 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 4: If we want to work on each other, that's what 162 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 4: we're doing. We're not trying to change each other. We're 163 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 4: just trying to work on each other. And I have 164 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 4: My dad has worked on me, and I have worked 165 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 4: on him. What if my like most intense moments in 166 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 4: the pandemic is when he decided to get vaccinated, which 167 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 4: he was vehemently opposed to. 168 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 3: But it wasn't just me. 169 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 4: These circumstances of his life were working on him right, 170 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 4: But he knew I was there to say this is 171 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 4: the right thing. Like when he made that call for himself, 172 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 4: he knew he could call me and I would say, 173 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 4: I'm so glad you're doing this right. 174 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: We're taking a quick break, stay with us. What do 175 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: you think that people on both sides of this divide 176 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: get wrong about the other? You know, people whose experiences 177 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: are more like yours and mine? What do we get 178 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: wrong about people like your dad and so many others 179 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: who are good, decent, honorable people. I'm putting aside the 180 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: malicious ones, the bad actors or bad actors, and what 181 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: do those folks get wrong about people like us? 182 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 4: We all know the stereotypes that democrats are elitist and 183 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 4: overly intellectual and judgmental and don't really care. And then 184 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 4: I always say on our podcast, we all just sort 185 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 4: of default to you don't care if the other side dies, 186 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 4: Like that's like the that's where. 187 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 3: We go immediately. You don't care about it. I don't 188 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:00,719 Speaker 3: care about that. Like that's how we know. 189 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 4: We've gone off the cliff is because suddenly we're all 190 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 4: psychopaths and so we you know, we do that with 191 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 4: each other, and I, living where I live, cannot do that. 192 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 4: Like back to the twenty sixteen election, there was a 193 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 4: woman in my child's daycare and she loved my baby just. 194 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 3: It brings to yours mud. 195 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 4: She loved my baby, you know, well, she loved Donald Trump, 196 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 4: just loved him so much. I could not decide what 197 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,599 Speaker 4: she was and put all that characterization, that two dimensionality 198 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 4: that we do on her. It was impossible to me 199 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 4: because I was handing my child to her into her 200 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 4: loving arms two days a week. 201 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 3: Right, But I couldn't do it. 202 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 4: And I think that's what happens when you live in 203 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 4: a place where where everyone politics are not closely aligned 204 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 4: with your politics, because you just don't have that luxury 205 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 4: of saying everybody feels this box. 206 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 5: You know. 207 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 4: In twenty sixteen, I was on the ballot too. I 208 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 4: ran for my city commissioner race and I won. It 209 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 4: was a very very bittersweeted night that election night, and 210 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 4: I thought, I know, there are people who voted Republican 211 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,119 Speaker 4: and then went down the ticket and voted for me, knowing. 212 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: My politics, because they knew you, they understood where you 213 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: were coming from. 214 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, you know. 215 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: What you just said reminded me of one of the 216 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: interviews that my daughter Chelsea and I did for our 217 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:25,119 Speaker 1: Apple TV plus program Gutsy. We interviewed a African American 218 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 1: woman firefighter in the fire department of New York. There 219 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: aren't very many of them, and there sure aren't very 220 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: many who are African American, and we just absolutely adored 221 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: her because she was funny and smart and very clear 222 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: about why she was doing what she did and how 223 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: she was trying to break down barriers for other women 224 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: to come behind her. And she said to me one time, 225 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: she says, you know, I've been in the FDNY for now. 226 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 1: I think as I recall like fifteen sixteen years and 227 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: I've moved up the ranks, and I'm in firehouses where 228 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: I'm the only woman and often usually the only black person, 229 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: And you know, I hear things and I see things. 230 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: But I'll tell you one thing, if I or anybody 231 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 1: else was ever in trouble, these guys would break down 232 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 1: the door to save me or anybody anybody. 233 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 2: And so part of. 234 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: This is trying to hang on to the understanding that yes, 235 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: we have different political views, but we are all human 236 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: beings and we've got to make sure that doesn't get marginalized. 237 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: And that's what you try to do in your podcast. 238 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: You know, for our listeners who may have family members, friends, 239 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: co workers who they disagree with politically or have had 240 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: a disruption in their relationship because of politics. What are 241 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: some of your tips, What are some of the ways 242 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: that you can try to restore some grit to your 243 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: relationships and conversations. 244 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 4: Well, you know Beth Silver's this is the best Silver's original. 245 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 4: She always says, just remember you do not have to 246 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 4: leave the Thanksgiving table with draft legislation, like let's just 247 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 4: lower the expectations for these conversations, like, no one's looking 248 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 4: for that from you and your coworkers or your family members. Right, 249 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 4: So there's a lot of phrases that we've used that 250 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 4: you know, I think really just helped to keep in 251 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 4: your pocket. And this is another Beth original. Or she'll say, 252 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 4: can you tell me more about that? When you're just 253 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 4: in it and you're like, have we stepped into another planet? 254 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 3: What's happening? 255 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 4: Because that's a question we get a lot. This all 256 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 4: sounds lovely. What if we can't agree on reality? 257 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 3: What do we do then? 258 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 2: Right? 259 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 4: And what we always say is just say that, say 260 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 4: isn't it interesting that you and I grew up in 261 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 4: the same home and we can't even agree on this 262 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 4: basic reality? 263 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: Right? 264 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 4: Isn't that interesting? Not that makes you bad and me good? 265 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 4: Isn't that interesting? Because it is interesting if you're a 266 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 4: student of human nature, that is interesting. 267 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, it is. 268 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 2: How did that happen? 269 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 3: How did that happen? 270 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: What are the reasons? Right? 271 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: You know, one of the biggest issues caught up in 272 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: political debate is of course abortion, and this is such 273 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: a difficult, hot button issue for most people. So how 274 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: do you talk about that in you know, conversations with neighbors, 275 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: people in your community, people at church. 276 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 4: What I have learned for my time in Paduca. And honestly, 277 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 4: the story I really always tell people is when I 278 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 4: knocked on doors, on on five thousand doors in the 279 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 4: election of twenty sixteen, which is an exercise in humanity, 280 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 4: a lovely one. I had such little negative to extra. 281 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 4: It's a great experience, it really, and you know what 282 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 4: I always tell people, it is the building blocks of 283 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 4: mental health. You are outside, you are moving your body, 284 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 4: You're engaging with humans exactly. But everybody thinks it's so scary, 285 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 4: but I'm like, it's not. But obviously I was a 286 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 4: nonpartisan race in theory. In reality in twenty sixteen, everybody 287 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 4: wanted to know who I was voting for, and I 288 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 4: would say, well, I worked for Hillary Clinton, and that 289 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 4: wasn't It just diffused it because what are they going 290 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 4: to say, No, you didn't right, No you didn't like 291 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 4: I guess I did. So that experience, and that's absolutely 292 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 4: my experience with talking about abortion. So often when I 293 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 4: get in conversations about abortion, I either talk about my 294 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 4: time working for a Planned Parenthood or I talk about 295 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 4: my own pregnancy loss where I had a pregnancy at 296 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 4: twenty weeks where the fetes didn't have a heartbeat. Oh 297 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 4: and I wrote a post actually before, right before the 298 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 4: election in Kentucky where we defeated an abortion amendment that 299 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 4: I said, like, if this, you know, this was not 300 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 4: that long ago, but if it had happened now, I 301 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 4: don't think I would have been able to get the 302 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 4: surgery I got. I would have had to get sick first, 303 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 4: you know. And it and I think women have gotten 304 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 4: so open and transparent because of the work of generations 305 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 4: of people, including yourself, making this conversation more open, making 306 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 4: this conversation more transparent. And there's so many women standing 307 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 4: up and saying, this is what happened to me. You 308 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 4: can't argue with this, This is what happened to me. 309 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 4: Would you want this to happen to you? 310 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: That is so well said. 311 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: You know, I can tell what you're going to answer 312 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: to this question, but I'm going to ask it because 313 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: I feel it's important for people who, like so many 314 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: right now, are confused, unsettled, angry, worried, all of those emotions. 315 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: But based on your experience day to day in your community, 316 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: do you feel optimistic about the future of our country. 317 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: You know, I do, I know, but I want everybody 318 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: else to know you do. 319 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, you know. 320 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 4: I I feel like this is a conversation I have 321 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 4: with my thirteen year old all the time. You know, 322 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 4: I jokingly say, when I got pregnant, I said, no, 323 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 4: alex Pekeaton's allowed. 324 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 3: I did not expect to become the Alex pe Keaton. 325 00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 3: That is what happened. 326 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 4: He went further left of me, and he gets so, 327 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 4: you know, in that way that you do when you're young. 328 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 4: It feels like how this is all terrible? Like how 329 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 4: is any of this gonna get better? We were just 330 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 4: having this conversation about climate change, and I said, hey, 331 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 4: we just passed once in a generation climate change legislation 332 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 4: that matters, and I know we don't feel it instantaneously, 333 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 4: and that this work is long, but I you know, 334 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 4: I believe in the beloved community. I believe that I 335 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 4: drink from a well that I did not dig, and 336 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 4: that people on the other end in front of me 337 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 4: will hopefully benefit from things that I'm doing that I 338 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 4: don't get to experience, and that connect. That's It's back 339 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 4: to what we were talking about from the beginning. That connection. 340 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 4: I believe in that. I feel it every day. I 341 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 4: have seen it play out in the lives of others, 342 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 4: including you, and I just try to tap that as 343 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 4: much as I can, to be present with people and 344 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 4: not try to talk them out of what they're feeling. 345 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 4: You can't talk a thirteen year old out of how 346 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 4: they're feeling. I don't know if you've tried. It is 347 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 4: not a worthwhile endeavor. And so I just say, hey, 348 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 4: I understand. I felt that way at times too, But 349 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 4: I'm here with you and I'll stay with you, and 350 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 4: we're on the same team, and I feel that way 351 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 4: about humanity for the most part, and we will keep 352 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 4: taking steps together and we don't know where it's going 353 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 4: to go, but I do believe that we'll keep moving forward. 354 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 2: Well. 355 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,479 Speaker 1: Amen, Amen, you and I are on the same page 356 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: about that, and I am thrilled to have this chance 357 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: to talk with you. 358 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 4: And you are welcome on Pantsu Politics anytime. 359 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 2: You know what, let's add that to the list. I'd 360 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: love to. 361 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 3: I love it. 362 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: Listen to the Pantsuit Politics podcast wherever you get your podcasts. 363 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: If you think talking to your uncle or your next 364 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: door neighbor is challenging, wait until you hear from my 365 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: next guest, Ambassador Linda Thomas Greenfield has represented the interests 366 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 1: of the United States in some pretty difficult places, from 367 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: Liberia to Afghanistan, and as we'll hear about now in 368 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: her seat on the Security Council of the United Nations 369 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: as our Ambassador to the UN. Over the course of 370 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: her thirty five year career with the Foreign Service, Linda 371 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: has served as Ambassador to Liberia, Assistant Secretary of State 372 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: for African Affairs, Director General of the Foreign Service, and 373 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: Director of Human Resources, and held posts abroad in Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, 374 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: and Switzerland, to name a few. I know how difficult 375 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: diplomatic work is, the delicate balancing of knowing when to 376 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: listen and learn and when to push back. And I've 377 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: seen Linda in action, and she does it masterfully. She 378 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: has great stories to share from her experience on the 379 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: high wire of international diplomacy, but she also offers us 380 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: all an example for how to handle difficult interactions in 381 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: our own daily lives. I'm so delighted she could join 382 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: us on the podcast. 383 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: Welcome Linda, Thank you very much. 384 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 5: I'm delighted to be here with you. 385 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: Well I've been looking forward to this, and I want 386 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: to start by talking about your work at the United Nations, 387 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: because I know that maybe some of our listeners don't 388 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: know what does the US Ambassador to the United Nations 389 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: do on a daily basis. 390 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 5: You know, first and foremost, I represent America to the world. 391 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 5: At the United Nations. There are one hundred and ninety 392 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 5: three country member states there, and I have to engage 393 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 5: with all of those member states because when it comes 394 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 5: to voting in the General Assembly, it's one country, one vote, 395 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 5: and so I spend a lot of my days in 396 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 5: aging with every single country. But also I attend meetings 397 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 5: of the General Assembly and meetings of the Security Council, 398 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 5: and then I do things like what I'm doing with 399 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 5: you today. 400 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: Well, I know how important it is to have that 401 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: one on one personal contact, building those relationships between you 402 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: representing the United States and the representatives of other countries, because, 403 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: as you say, oftentimes. 404 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: We need votes. 405 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: We need votes to do things that we believe are 406 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: in our interests and furtherance of our values and obviously 407 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: protecting our security. 408 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 2: So let's take a step back. 409 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: You were born and raised in Baker, Louisiana, north of 410 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: Baton Rouge. 411 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 2: How did you end up. 412 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: In the foreign service as a diplomat representing our country? 413 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: Was there somebody who inspired you or something you learned 414 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: that made you interested in international relations? 415 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 5: You know, every time I'm asked that question, I recall 416 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 5: something different and new that I didn't recall before. And 417 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,959 Speaker 5: most recently, I've talked about the fact that when I 418 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 5: was in eighth grade, Peace Corps came to my community. 419 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 5: There was an old HBCU Leland College and it closed 420 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 5: down and Peace Corps came there in the mid sixties 421 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 5: to train volunteers who were going to Somalia and Swaziland, 422 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 5: and that was my first engagement with the world outside 423 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 5: of Baker, Louisiana. They reached out to the community, it's 424 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 5: a poor rural community and invited young kids from the 425 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 5: community to come over and learn the languages that they 426 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 5: were learning, and I started to learn Suswati wow when 427 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 5: I was in eighth grade. I can't repeat a word 428 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 5: of it now, but it was interesting to me. And 429 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 5: then fast forward, I ended up going to the university 430 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 5: was Constant Graduate School, and one of my graduate classmates 431 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 5: was the Siswati teacher Glory Mamba, and so I kind 432 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 5: of rekindled that interest. I'd gone to Madison to get 433 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 5: a master's degree in public administration. I didn't have any 434 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 5: interest in international relations, but that moment rekindled that interest 435 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 5: in learning more about the world, and I ended up 436 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 5: in the PhD program studying African politics and got the 437 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 5: amazing opportunity to go to Liberia, where I met people 438 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 5: who worked at the embassy. One of them happens to 439 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 5: be my husband, and that's all she wrote. I took 440 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 5: the Foreign Service exam, and here I am. Forty years later. 441 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: You joined in nineteen eighty two. You started representing the 442 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: United States, and you've had one of the most interesting, 443 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: impactful careers that I personally know of. But when I 444 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: was Secretary of State, you served as Director General of 445 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: the Foreign Service, which is a very prestigious post within 446 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: the State Department, and you also served as the director 447 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: of Human Resources, so you had a lot to do 448 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:26,719 Speaker 1: in stewarding the global workforce of seventy thousand personnel. In 449 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: your view, what makes a good diplomat. 450 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 5: You know, first and foremost, you have to love what 451 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 5: you're doing, and the most important skill is the ability 452 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 5: to listen to people. It's communication skills. So we teach 453 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 5: people they have to write well, and that's important. We 454 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 5: teach people to develop contacts. But in developing those contacts, 455 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 5: they have to develop relationships. And if you develop those relationships, 456 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 5: you can be a good diplomat no matter where you 457 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 5: are assigned, because you develop the relationships that help you 458 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 5: to understand where other people are coming from, even those 459 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 5: people you might not agree with. 460 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: I was wondering if there's also either teaching or role 461 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: modeling about what to do when you're asked to execute 462 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 1: a policy you don't agree with personally, because you know 463 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: you serve different presidents. Obviously, you know there's different policies 464 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: depending upon who's sitting in the oval office. How does 465 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 1: a diplomat come to be professionally able to say, Okay, 466 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: I disagree with this, but I serve the president and 467 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: the country. 468 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 5: You know. It takes experience and it also takes a 469 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 5: commitment to the profession. I had an experience early in 470 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 5: my career when I questioned whether I wanted to be 471 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 5: in the Foreign Service and whether I could continue to 472 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 5: serve give a particular policy, and it related to Liberia. 473 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 5: I was in Liberia in the late seventies. I left 474 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 5: Liberian seventy nine after some very violent Rice riots, and 475 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 5: in nineteen eighty there was a bloody coup and the 476 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 5: person who carried out that who committed atrocities beyond our 477 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 5: imaginations at that time. And I joined the Foreign Service 478 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 5: in eighty two, and one of the first meetings, I 479 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 5: think maybe in eighty three that I was aware of 480 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 5: the White House having was a meeting between President Reagan 481 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 5: and Liberian President Doe, who'd carried out this horrific and 482 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 5: very bloody coup. And I thought it was wrong for 483 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 5: the President to meet with this guy, and I voiced 484 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 5: it to a more senior officer, and he said, Linda, 485 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 5: if you quit today, nobody will pay attention. If you 486 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 5: want to make a difference, you have to be in 487 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 5: a position where your voice is heard, and right now 488 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 5: your voice will not be heard. And I will tell 489 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 5: you later in my career I was in a position 490 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 5: where my voice made a difference in our policies and 491 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 5: I was able to affect change. And I very much 492 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 5: appreciate the advice that I was given at an early 493 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 5: age that just quitting will make me feel good, but 494 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 5: it will do nothing for our government. So that's advice 495 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 5: that I give to young people today. 496 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: I think that's such important insight and advice because you know, 497 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: our conversation today is really focusing on how do you 498 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,640 Speaker 1: talk to people you disagree with? And I think it's 499 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 1: fair to say you and I have a lot of 500 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of time shocked up to trying 501 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: to do that. But if you don't listen to people 502 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: with whom you disagree, there is absolutely no chance of 503 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 1: finding any sliver of common ground. You still may not 504 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: find it, but you've got to start from some point 505 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 1: of understanding what does this person, what does this government want? 506 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: And is there any way to reach some kind of 507 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: better outcome. 508 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. 509 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about two areas that 510 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: you really have fascinating experience in one in Liberia. 511 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: Tell the listeners a little. 512 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: Bit more about when you went back and it was 513 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: still a very violent, conflict ridden country. 514 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 5: You know, I went full circle. I started in Liberia 515 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 5: in seventy eight, seventy nine, and then went back to 516 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 5: Liberia in two thousand and eight as the ambassador, and 517 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,959 Speaker 5: Liberia had just come out of a horrific era of 518 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 5: civil war. In two thousand and six it had elected 519 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 5: the first woman president and it was extraordinarily challenging for 520 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 5: her and for the entire country. And I remember going 521 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 5: in the Secretary of State at that time was Kandie Rice, 522 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 5: And as you know, you give us a secretary's letter 523 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 5: of instruction to go into a country, and my letter 524 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 5: of instruction to Liberia, it's said a lot of things, 525 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 5: but one thing stood out. Your job is to help 526 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 5: this country to succeed. And so that was the approach 527 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 5: that I took. When I arrived at my embassy, I 528 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 5: shared the letter of instructions with the entire embassy and said, 529 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 5: this is what we're here to do. We're here to 530 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 5: help this country. Then, through decades of civil war and conflict, 531 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 5: people are traumatized. We have a president who started out 532 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 5: with a budget of sixty million dollars to run a country. 533 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 5: It's pocket change for most countries. How do we help 534 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 5: her to succeed? And my approach to her, and I'm 535 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 5: still friends with her, is mana president, I'm going to 536 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 5: be the one person who will always tell you the truth. Yes, right, 537 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 5: even when it's not something you want to hear. You 538 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 5: can trust that I will always tell you the truth 539 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 5: about the people around you, about you. But I also 540 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 5: engage with everybody in the country, the good guys and 541 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 5: the bad guys. I spoke to everyone. I went into communities, 542 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 5: I spoke to market women, I spoke to unemployed teachers. 543 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 5: I got to know the country from the grassroots so 544 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 5: that I could be in a position to help the 545 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 5: country succeed, inform our own policies about what we needed 546 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 5: to do from the Washington side, but also advise the 547 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 5: president and her government on what they needed to do. 548 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 5: And I found it to be extraordinarily effective. One thing 549 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 5: that happened the first year I was there, the local 550 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 5: newspapers vote on the diplomat of the year, and I 551 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 5: was voted the diplomat of the year, but called the 552 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 5: people's ambassador. And that was extraordinarily important to me because 553 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 5: people recognize that they would see me in the markets, 554 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 5: they would see me in the coffee in tea shops 555 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 5: talking to unemployed youth. They would see me in rural 556 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 5: areas talking to local people, farmers and getting a sense 557 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 5: of what the country needed to survive and help the 558 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 5: country to succeed. And I think we did an extraordinarily 559 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 5: good job. And two of my successes, Madame Secretary, was 560 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 5: to get you to come to lib Aurea twice. 561 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: I know. 562 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: And as I was listening to you, Linda, I thought 563 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: about going to president to Ellen Johnson, Sirleive's second inaugural 564 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: after or she'd gotten herself re elected, which was equally amazing. 565 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: And she asked me to speak to the Parliament. Remember that, 566 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: and she told me, she said, now I need you 567 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: to go speak to the Parliament, but you're gonna be 568 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: standing in front of an audience it includes war criminals, coupplotters, 569 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: all kinds of you know, very uh dangerous and difficult people. 570 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 5: And my job was to keep you from taking a 571 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 5: picture with idioms. 572 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I know it. 573 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: But that's like a perfect story, Like, Okay, you had 574 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: been spending your time day in and day out talking 575 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: to everybody, including you know, people that maybe we would 576 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: not choose to, but that was part of the mission. 577 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: And then I was speaking to a full audience that 578 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: included some of those same people. But it just goes 579 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: to remind us that you don't make peace or progress 580 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: just with your friends. I mean, you've got to have 581 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: a big enough tent that you bring all kinds of 582 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: people of influence in a society together. And one of 583 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: the most fascinating parts of your career, Linda, is you 584 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,719 Speaker 1: were among the very first Americans ever to meet with 585 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: and negotiate with the Taliban. And that happened, you know, 586 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: not in the last couple of years, but back in 587 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 1: the nineties. Could you just describe the circumstances you were 588 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: in Pakistan, what happened that made you cross the border 589 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: to meet with the Taliban. 590 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 5: So I was the refugee coordinator in Pakistan, and the 591 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 5: refugees in Pakistan all came from Afghanistan. And when I 592 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 5: was sent out there, I was sent to basically close 593 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 5: the refugee camps and start supporting people returning home. I 594 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 5: got there in August of nineteen ninety six and the 595 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 5: Taliban came in in November, and that changed my job description. 596 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 5: So I was engaging with the Taliban on the issues 597 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 5: of women's education, on issues of human rights, on issues 598 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 5: of the poppy and drug trade. It was not my intention. 599 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 5: I literally was going in to assess the work of 600 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 5: the NGOs and the UN the work that they were 601 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 5: doing in Afghanistan because we were the largest funder. So 602 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 5: my initial goal was to work with those organizations, but 603 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 5: those organizations were having difficulty working with the Taliban, and 604 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 5: I recalled in one meeting with the Taliban minister of 605 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 5: health who'd made a decision that women could not work 606 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 5: in hospitals, they could not provide medical care and lock 607 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 5: any access of women to medical assistance. And I went 608 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 5: in to meet with this guy. I had a very 609 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,479 Speaker 5: lightly covered veil on and as I started to talk 610 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 5: to him, he said, you are trying to impose your 611 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 5: culture on me on us, and I said, this is 612 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 5: not my. 613 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,440 Speaker 1: Culture, pointing to your head with her into. 614 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,439 Speaker 5: My head with the veil, and I removed the veil. 615 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 5: I said, I wore it out of respect for you, 616 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 5: but this is not my culture. And all the angos 617 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 5: were like up in arms because I'd remove my scarf, 618 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 5: but I said, I need to understand your culture. So 619 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 5: if I understand correctly, when women get sick, the only 620 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 5: outcome is that they die. So if your mother, your sister, 621 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 5: your wife, your daughter all gets sick, they have no 622 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 5: access to a doctor because they can't see a male doctor, 623 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 5: and you're blocking them from seeing a female doctor. And 624 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 5: he sat there, he didn't say anything and Finally the 625 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 5: meeting ended. Everybody was upset with me because they thought 626 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 5: I'd been a little pushy, a little over aggressive. And 627 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 5: I discovered that his mother was seriously ill and he'd 628 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 5: been pushing for one of the NGOs to fly his 629 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 5: mother to Pakistan for medical treatment. 630 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 2: And he thought that I knew that. 631 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 5: And the next day he made the decision to allow 632 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 5: women to go back to work. It was not I mean, 633 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 5: we rejoiced at the decision, but they also had to 634 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 5: have a male relative accompany them, and the male relative 635 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 5: could be their two year old son, right, but women 636 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,240 Speaker 5: were allowed to go back into the hospital to work. 637 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 5: And I thought, you know, I engaged him. I didn't 638 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 5: think I was being aggressive. I was like, I need 639 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 5: to understand your culture. Good for you, Linda, and I 640 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 5: engaged regularly with Afghan women. And one of the things 641 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 5: that women told me which really impacted me, is you're 642 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 5: pushing for our girls' education, and we want our girls 643 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 5: to be educated, but you have to educate our boys too, 644 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 5: because if you don't educate our boys, they're going to 645 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 5: be forced to marry ignorant men. And it changed my 646 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 5: approach as well, because I began to understand yes, we 647 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 5: have to demand that girls be educated, but we cannot 648 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 5: ignore the education of boys, because otherwise these boys will 649 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 5: be become taliban who don't understand how to support the 650 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 5: rights of women. 651 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: I think that's such an important story because so many 652 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: people in our country today don't want to talk to 653 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: anybody they disagree with, whether it's the right, the left, red, blue, Democrat, Republican, 654 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: whatever it might be. Yeah, I mean that is diplomacy 655 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: kind of in a nutshell, and yet it often seems 656 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: to move so slowly. It takes a lot of patience. 657 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: How do you keep the resilience? You know, I have 658 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,720 Speaker 1: a little bit of experience of getting knocked down, having 659 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: things not work out, and you do have to call 660 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: on something deep inside. And I know that in your 661 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: career you've had to do that time and time again 662 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: because you've been in some very challenging positions. So talk 663 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: a little bit about what it takes to keep talking 664 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: and working under difficult circumstances as you have. 665 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 5: You know, you always have to approach any of these 666 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 5: discussions with an unrealistic. 667 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 2: Degree of hope interesting. 668 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 5: That you are making a difference, and that even when 669 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 5: you fail, you achieve something and so I approach situations 670 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 5: that are clearly very challenging, very difficult, that I probably 671 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 5: know in my hard hearts that I'm not going to 672 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 5: win on. But something is going to come out that 673 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 5: will make a difference, will make a difference in the 674 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,919 Speaker 5: lives of people who who are engaged, or people who 675 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 5: just need to see the US there. They want to 676 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 5: see us at the table, and when they see us 677 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 5: at the table, it gives them strength. So it's also 678 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 5: about giving others the strength to engage on these issues. 679 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 5: And I just know every single day, and this is 680 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 5: that unrealistic part of me. Every single day I know 681 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 5: that something I'm doing, although it may look like failure 682 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 5: to everybody else, is making a difference to someone somewhere. 683 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 1: I like that because I think that is a way 684 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: that people like you and I do keep going. Is 685 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: that somehow this ripple effect is going to mean something. Yes, 686 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: And before we close, do you have any reflections about 687 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,840 Speaker 1: how some of what you've learned through your forty years 688 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: of diplomacy could be applied in our own country, which 689 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: seems so divided, so at odds with each other, where 690 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: people are more interested in scoring points than solving problems. 691 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: Do you have any advice you want to give our 692 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,839 Speaker 1: listeners and others who are trying to figure out how 693 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: do we get back together, how do we have hope 694 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: that we're going to work our way through all of 695 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 1: these controversies and problems. 696 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 5: You know, what I see and what has worked for 697 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 5: me and what I see not working now is people 698 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 5: have lost their sense of compassion. They've lost their sense 699 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 5: of kindness, they have lost their sense of respect for 700 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 5: other people's differences. So I can sit with someone that 701 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 5: I have differences with and listen to them long enough 702 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 5: to find a common thread. And sometimes it takes a 703 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 5: lot of patience to do that. It's sitting and listening 704 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 5: to somebody spout off something for two hours that you 705 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 5: totally disagree with. But suddenly a light goes off and 706 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 5: there's this thread and you find a connection with that person. 707 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,720 Speaker 5: And so we've lost our sense to patients, yes as well. 708 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:10,839 Speaker 5: So my advice is listen, respect, show kindness, and look 709 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 5: for the commonalities that are there that if you didn't 710 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 5: have the patience to wait, you wouldn't find those commonalities. 711 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 5: It may be that you have grandchildren who are the 712 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 5: same ages, and you spend fifteen minutes, a very valuable 713 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:31,959 Speaker 5: time talking about your two grandkids. And then I can 714 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 5: use that bring it back around to say, if you 715 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 5: want a future for your grandchild, then you need to 716 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,919 Speaker 5: rethink what you're doing here. And so it does take 717 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 5: patients because you go into these meetings. You got thirty minutes. 718 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 5: Lucky if you got sixty minutes and you got three 719 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 5: pages of talking points and everybody waiting for you to 720 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 5: go through each point because ten different entities within the 721 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:00,040 Speaker 5: government want. 722 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 2: You to make their point. 723 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 5: Yes, right, and so you have to go through the 724 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 5: talking points, but you also have to listen, and you 725 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 5: have to connect with the person. So I always start 726 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 5: my meetings connecting and so then you've established that relationship 727 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 5: that allows you to reach back to that person again 728 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 5: and again and again. And that's when you know you've 729 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 5: succeeded as a diplomat when you have those relationships that 730 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 5: work even when you disagree with each other. 731 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: Boy, amen to that, Linda, Well, you could give a 732 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 1: masterclass on diplomacy. And you have given us a lot 733 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: to think about in this conversation. And I'm just so 734 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: appreciative of your taking your time, but more than that 735 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: of your steadfast, stellar devotion to the work you've done 736 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 1: on behalf of the United States, and I just hope 737 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: your words resonate with our lis and beyond so that 738 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: people will talk about that. 739 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 5: Well, I'm not going to let you in with that 740 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 5: because you have been such a role model for all 741 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,720 Speaker 5: of us, and during your term as Secretary of State, 742 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 5: you really gave us the guidance and the support that 743 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 5: we needed that allowed us to do our jobs, and 744 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 5: you gave us the example that we needed. So I'm 745 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,240 Speaker 5: going to thank you for what you have done as well. 746 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:28,799 Speaker 2: Well. 747 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for everything. It means the world 748 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: to me. 749 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 2: Thank you. 750 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. 751 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subren, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, 752 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: with help from Khuma Abadeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsey Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, 753 00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: Laura Olin, Lona Vlmro and Lily Weber. Our engineer is 754 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: Zach McNeice and the original music is by Forest Gray. 755 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: If you like You and Me Both, tell someone else 756 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: about it. And if you're not already a subscriber, what 757 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: are you waiting for? You can subscribe to You and 758 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: Me Both on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 759 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,839 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and I'll see 760 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: you next week.