Speaker 1: Really now, really.
Speaker 2: Really now, really hello, and welcome to really know Really
Speaker 2: Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, who remind you that subscribing
Speaker 2: to our show means you are never ever truly alone.
Speaker 2: But speaking of being truly alone, NASA plans to send
Speaker 2: humans on a scientific round trip to Mars, potentially as
Speaker 2: early as twenty thirty five. Beyond the technical challenges, the
Speaker 2: big question is whether human beings would be capable of
Speaker 2: dealing with the long period of isolation and loneliness necessary
Speaker 2: to make the journey. Anxiety, depression, cognitive decline, emotional dysregulation,
Speaker 2: weakened immune system, and even hallucinations and delusions are just
Speaker 2: some of the effects of isolation, none of which are
Speaker 2: exactly ideal when sending people to a distant planet with
Speaker 2: sketchy odds of a successful return, and that's why scientists
Speaker 2: have begun researching isolation in some of the most remote places.
Speaker 2: Honor Doctor Beth Gely is not only one of those scientists,
Speaker 2: she's also a research guinea pig. She studies the effects
Speaker 2: of extreme isolation in Antarctica at the Space Flight Research
Speaker 2: Center Concordia, otherwise known as White Mars. We spoke with
Speaker 2: doctor Heely about which human traits are best suited for
Speaker 2: handling isolation, how she has personally dealt with it, and
Speaker 2: how befriending of volleyball like Tom Hanks did in the
Speaker 2: movie Castaway, is an actual phenomenon. Really, no, really, And
Speaker 2: now here are two guys whose friendship I value almost
Speaker 2: as much as my volleyball, Jason and Peter.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question.
Speaker 3: Now, this is we're gonna we're gonna talk about isolation today.
Speaker 3: And here's so, this is the one that I asked
Speaker 3: you about. I had read a thing about you know,
Speaker 3: they're talking about isolation on the long space flight to Mars?
Speaker 3: Can we survive it? And then you know, and then
Speaker 3: not only is it the flight, but then you're on
Speaker 3: an uninhabited Atlanta in another world. I still, to this day,
Speaker 3: I have trouble spending long periods of time alone. I'm
Speaker 3: not good alone. I thrive on social interactions. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: it doesn't. And honestly, I was finding COVID. I turned
Speaker 3: to my wife after three months of basically just being
Speaker 3: with her, and I go, this is good. I'm happy.
Speaker 3: I'm very happy with you. You're a great company. But alone
Speaker 3: would be challenging for me. Are you good alone?
Speaker 1: I'm really good alone? Are you really I am really
Speaker 1: good alone? I don't have any trouble occupying myself. You
Speaker 1: know what like the fun of this show for me,
Speaker 1: Believe or Not is researching and going down rabbit holes
Speaker 1: to find it, because every question when you research something
Speaker 1: leads to another question. I did that and talk greater fears.
Speaker 1: I love I talk? Were you in talk right now?
Speaker 1: I love? How long were you in talk right now?
Speaker 1: It's about thirty years?
Speaker 3: When people say you're kind, but I just well you
Speaker 3: you got to me about how I say, can I
Speaker 3: ask you a question?
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, how many times do I have to
Speaker 1: hear it when it right? So they can I ask
Speaker 1: your question? How long will you talk right? I'm sorry
Speaker 1: to interrupt.
Speaker 3: I want to answer until I interrupted you in talk
Speaker 3: right now?
Speaker 1: You go down here and you go isolation, and then
Speaker 1: you find out what kind of personality does well in isolation,
Speaker 1: whether personality rates because our guests has gone to numerous
Speaker 1: places that are isolated. She's a research scientist to specialize
Speaker 1: in this. I get it, But what's your brain that
Speaker 1: you go? This is what I want to do and
Speaker 1: I constantly want to go to these places which are challenging. Isolated,
Speaker 1: it's dark for three months, there's no no day, it's
Speaker 1: it's all right. And the challenge is that I don't
Speaker 1: want challenges. I don't even want to go camp. We
Speaker 1: used to camp when we were kids. If I can't
Speaker 1: plug in a hair dryer and a mini fridge and
Speaker 1: order something for take, you know, I'm not going.
Speaker 3: It's the longest. What's the longest you ever been all alone?
Speaker 1: Really alone? Intensive care? But people are around. God, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know how long I've been around
Speaker 1: when people in vacation. I'm home alone, but there's people outside,
Speaker 1: there's somebody delivering mail. You're never really I've never been
Speaker 1: in isolation. Yeah, I would say.
Speaker 3: You know, the longest is when my parents went away
Speaker 3: the first time, left me alone in the house for
Speaker 3: a week and I was sixteen, I think fifteen or sixteen,
Speaker 3: and I did something stupid, you know what I did.
Speaker 1: There's no way to start isolation. Friday.
Speaker 3: They left on Friday morning, so I go to school,
Speaker 3: I come back in the world is mine. It's my house,
Speaker 3: my house. Friday night, I stay up really late and
Speaker 3: I watched the original. I'd never seen the original Night
Speaker 3: of the Living Dead. Oh a choice, and I'm I'm petrified.
Speaker 3: Bad choice. And I go up to the bedroom and
Speaker 3: as I'm getting ready for bed, there's something in the basement.
Speaker 3: There's noises coming out of the basement. And don't I
Speaker 3: don't know what the hell it is. I don't know
Speaker 3: what it is? And what do you do?
Speaker 1: What are you doing? Those things?
Speaker 3: Every time we see people in horror films going going
Speaker 3: to the thing, go you idiot, you idiot? Here I am,
Speaker 3: so I grab a kitchen knife and I grab something
Speaker 3: else and I'm now standing outside the basement door, listening,
Speaker 3: and there is something in my basement. There is someone
Speaker 3: down there. And I don't know where this came from.
Speaker 3: The adrenaline and I throw open the door and I
Speaker 3: flick on the light night and I yell out.
Speaker 1: Something like I'll kill you.
Speaker 3: I've been trying to think that I would scare the
Speaker 3: psychomaniac that's down there. A squirrel ran across the floor.
Speaker 3: I had a heart attack and died. This is not
Speaker 3: me anymore. I died at age sixteen. Squirrel outside the
Speaker 3: basement door. And by the way, I was paralyzed for
Speaker 3: the weekend. I couldn't go to the to the bottom
Speaker 3: floor of the house, didn't know what to do. Stay
Speaker 3: stay upstairs. And somehow this rabbit squirrel was going to
Speaker 3: chew through the basement door, find me and attack me
Speaker 3: for calling him names. So all right, so today we're
Speaker 3: talking about isolation. Let's introduce our guest, Beth Heally, doctor Bethiell,
Speaker 3: doctor Beth Heale, excuse me, an emergency medicine doctor who's
Speaker 3: worked for several years in the NHS and a variety
Speaker 3: of international settings. She is worked all over the world
Speaker 3: in a number of extreme and remote environments.
Speaker 1: Valdbard, I didn't even know that was. I looked that
Speaker 1: up to see if it was a joke, and they
Speaker 1: just screwed that in.
Speaker 3: A place Svalbard, Siberia, Greenland, Antarctica of the North Pole.
Speaker 3: She's a research MD for the European Space Agency. She
Speaker 3: has wintered in Antarctica at the Spaceflight Analog Concordia, otherwise
Speaker 3: known as White Mars.
Speaker 1: YEA, they recreate Mars. That's the closest thing. That's what
Speaker 1: they send people to see if they can hack it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or Mar.
Speaker 3: She has researched the effects of isolation and extreme environment
Speaker 3: on the psychology and physiology of her cruise. And she's
Speaker 3: so she's been there, She's been in the true does it?
Speaker 1: She puts herself through this voluntary.
Speaker 3: And so hopefully she'll join us because I know she
Speaker 3: likes to be alone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're larning her out with the pieces. They got
Speaker 1: someone on a screen now trying to get So let's
Speaker 1: say hello to doctor Beth Heally. So the big question
Speaker 1: first say hello to a person. Oh, doctor Healely, how
Speaker 1: are you great to see you? So Jason talked about her.
Speaker 1: I have to teach him man, he's not a on
Speaker 1: people a lot, doctor Hilling. I like isolation, but I wondered,
Speaker 1: if we are built a man has evolved over the
Speaker 1: thousand years to be who we are and live the
Speaker 1: way we are and adapt to our surroundings. We're asking
Speaker 1: man not to make a giant leap because we're going
Speaker 1: to send you to another environment. And I understand it
Speaker 1: would be like a three year trip back and forth.
Speaker 1: Whatever are we capable from what you know in studying
Speaker 1: isolation and living in isolation to do that? Is that realistic?
Speaker 1: Or do you sit back going Oh are these.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's it's a really interesting question because,
Speaker 4: of course, as you say, we are developing the technology
Speaker 4: required to take us on these longer duration missions. But
Speaker 4: I really do think the biggest challenge is going to
Speaker 4: be the human side. That's really what we were studying
Speaker 4: in Antarctica Concordia Station where I was working, so I
Speaker 4: was working for European Space Agency, and what we were
Speaker 4: doing there is really researching the effects of isolation as
Speaker 4: an analog for these long durations faceplight missions that it
Speaker 4: is really going to be a huge challenge to get
Speaker 4: us there safely, with good mental health and as a
Speaker 4: web forming team.
Speaker 1: You get that smirk as you're saying that, by the way,
Speaker 1: it means challenging. Did you see the wink on challenging
Speaker 1: because she's well, you've I should say, and I know
Speaker 1: you want to. You've done this repeatedly at different places
Speaker 1: where you put yourself in isolation and also where the
Speaker 1: environment's dark all day, where it's months and months of
Speaker 1: no daylight.
Speaker 3: But just so just so people listening have context, how
Speaker 3: when you go to Concordia, which is in Antarctica, is.
Speaker 1: That correct exactly?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's on the Jame Charlie Plateau. It's closest neighbors
Speaker 4: like Busto Conciple.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, And when when you're there and you're embedded
Speaker 3: with these research teams, how long a period of time
Speaker 3: are you are you all basically in that kind of
Speaker 3: isolation when you're doing a research study.
Speaker 4: So I went to Antarctica and Concordia for fourteen months
Speaker 4: when I was there, and then the isolation period of
Speaker 4: that is like a nine month period where you're over
Speaker 4: wentering and so that's where you've got. So we were
Speaker 4: a crew of thirteen people for those nine months, and
Speaker 4: we were considered completely inaccessible for that period even in
Speaker 4: case of emergency. And we also, as you mentioned, had
Speaker 4: like long periods of long polar night, so we went
Speaker 4: for one hundred and five days without any sunlight at all.
Speaker 1: Wow. So does that.
Speaker 3: I just want to equate that to the intended Mars mission.
Speaker 3: Are they talking about sending that many people in one mission?
Speaker 3: Or is that considered a large group for a space mission?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's sort of larger groups than what's anticipated
Speaker 4: for a Mars mission, although obviously if then you start
Speaker 4: to get colonies, for example, on the lunar plant, lunar
Speaker 4: surface or the Martian missions, that it could end up
Speaker 4: being a bit longer, like realistically for the spaceship to
Speaker 4: get two Mars, that's a higher number than what we expect.
Speaker 4: The thing is, they're not just relying on one analog
Speaker 4: program alone. So Concord is specifically looking at long duration spaceflight,
Speaker 4: but it's also looking at it in the context of
Speaker 4: a real mission in so much just to say that
Speaker 4: the crew in Antarctica are completely isolated and really extreme conditions,
Speaker 4: then so it's considered safer to have that number of
Speaker 4: people on that specific environment platform. So that's why we
Speaker 4: have thirteen, not because it necessarily reflects what we would
Speaker 4: be doing for longeration missions, but we also do other
Speaker 4: analog platforms which more accurately look at the sort of
Speaker 4: size of the crew. So for example, Males five hundred
Speaker 4: would be a good example of that. Whether they had
Speaker 4: a six person crew on a simulated Martian mission, but
Speaker 4: that was done in a much more controlled environment, so
Speaker 4: it's done in like a Russian car park essentially, so
Speaker 4: they sort of built the space ship, had a crew
Speaker 4: of six people, did a fully like simulated mass mission,
Speaker 4: and they had a lot more control over simulating, for example,
Speaker 4: and accidents happening there, being like emergencies for the crew
Speaker 4: which they had to deal with, and having that kind
Speaker 4: of like high fidelity simulation.
Speaker 5: But what it missed is what Concordia can actually offer,
Speaker 5: which is.
Speaker 4: That real life danger of being in an isolated and
Speaker 4: remote environment. And so I think actually, personally, I would
Speaker 4: have found it much harder to have gone on the
Speaker 4: Mass five hundred mission, which is the car Park one,
Speaker 4: because I think for me, like a lot of the
Speaker 4: stress that I had was actually during the summer time
Speaker 4: in Antarctica, where I still had the choice to leave,
Speaker 4: and it's actually really stressful kind of period because at
Speaker 4: that point you still have that choice, and so I
Speaker 4: spent a lot of that time thinking, you know, is
Speaker 4: it a good decision to stay here, What's going to happen?
Speaker 4: Like should I go on the next plane home and
Speaker 4: actually just quit? Whereas actually it was kind of almost
Speaker 4: like a relief when the last plane left and you
Speaker 4: suddenly were like, Okay, I'm doing this, and your mind
Speaker 4: actually like psychologically switches to different mode because you know
Speaker 4: that you can't even so actually the worries and sort
Speaker 4: of anxieties, you have a different and so I think
Speaker 4: if I've been in that other simulated mission, that the
Speaker 4: psychological challenges are actually quite different. So I think it's
Speaker 4: really important to have all these different types of animals
Speaker 4: looking at lots of different aspects get you much like
Speaker 4: for a bigger picture.
Speaker 3: So we're going to dig into this, but I just
Speaker 3: want to jump to the big picture question in your
Speaker 3: professional opinion, are.
Speaker 1: They going to be able to pull this off? Or
Speaker 1: is this is.
Speaker 3: This a hope to Christ kind of thing I can do?
Speaker 3: You think, based on what you've seen in experience, that
Speaker 3: there are enough people who could actually endure this kind
Speaker 3: of isolation and this kind of stress successfully and accomplish
Speaker 3: the intended Mars mission.
Speaker 4: So I think we'll do it, but I'm not sure
Speaker 4: if you're ready yet. I think that's kind of how
Speaker 4: I feel. I think like a lot of these programs
Speaker 4: are doing really valuable research and like looking at the
Speaker 4: challenges that we're going to face and trying to put
Speaker 4: in character measures to try and help prevent those challenges
Speaker 4: that we've researched that the team are likely to experience.
Speaker 4: But I think that there still needs a lot of
Speaker 4: research in this area to help optimize the team most effectively,
Speaker 4: like in terms of team selection, preparing the team, making
Speaker 4: sure that you have the right composition of team and
Speaker 4: that you're preparing them well in terms of the appropriate
Speaker 4: counter measures in place, and also monitoring of the team
Speaker 4: performance during that mission to make sure that it's successful.
Speaker 4: I think, I think it's wrong to think that we
Speaker 4: can just you know, just pop a crew on a
Speaker 4: Mars mission, like all of this training. But I think
Speaker 4: that there is a lot of this research taking place,
Speaker 4: like the Concordia platform, like last five hundred, like lots
Speaker 4: of other research projects that are going on, and I
Speaker 4: think that these are really valuable, and I think that
Speaker 4: we really have to like continue to do that to
Speaker 4: make sure that we're ready when the technology arrives, to
Speaker 4: make sure that we can safety send a team.
Speaker 1: So doctor Hilly, what I got to know, A who
Speaker 1: are you that you love going to these places? What
Speaker 1: personality you And as part of that, you've got to
Speaker 1: pick the right personality traits for these people who are going.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're going to make sure that they can
Speaker 1: live in that environment. And are the tests you get
Speaker 1: people to say this guy is going to go he's
Speaker 1: gonna hit crazy about day thirteen because looking at us,
Speaker 1: I'm guessing day three Are you and I going together?
Speaker 1: Because it's day one? Who goes in first, who goes
Speaker 1: in second? Were the engines are firing? Wait a minute,
Speaker 1: Peter's here. Peter's so yeah, if you can wrap that
Speaker 1: all into one, your personality, the personality traits of the
Speaker 1: people going, and how they test that. So you know,
Speaker 1: louis going crazy J nine here, I'm not going with him.
Speaker 1: How do you figure that out?
Speaker 5: But that's it, I mean, and it's not only just
Speaker 5: is that person okay? But are they in the right team?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: As well?
Speaker 4: You know, it's like so you could have six of
Speaker 4: the right people, but just not the right composition and
Speaker 4: like having clashing perfities. And you know, like when we
Speaker 4: went on to Concordia, like in fact that our whole
Speaker 4: crew didn't even make it to Concordia because you we
Speaker 4: were like de selected at the training stages.
Speaker 5: So we did lots of training before we went down there.
Speaker 4: We had like TESTA and people were sort of de
Speaker 4: selected before you even made it. And I think that
Speaker 4: was really important for our crew. And it's going to
Speaker 4: have to obviously be even more strict to go on
Speaker 4: these longer duration missions. Yeah, so I mean it's interesting
Speaker 4: as well about like who is the good person? You know,
Speaker 4: So in some ways you want sociable people because they're
Speaker 4: going to be able to get on with each other,
Speaker 4: because you know, you talk about isolation, and while you
Speaker 4: are isolated, you're also super in close proximity with your
Speaker 4: crew as well. So it's kind of this weird thing
Speaker 4: where you need to be sociable but not too sociable
Speaker 4: that you're going to be able to get on well
Speaker 4: with the team, but then you're also not going to
Speaker 4: miss too much having that social interaction back at home.
Speaker 5: And so there's lots of different factors.
Speaker 4: And then it's also about understanding your crew as well,
Speaker 4: and so we did lots of training at the European
Speaker 4: National Center before we went, which is sort of human
Speaker 4: behavior performance training, and a lot of that was focused
Speaker 4: on really understanding and how your crew react in different
Speaker 4: situations and how you react in different situations. And from
Speaker 4: having that better understanding and knowledge of how people reacting
Speaker 4: these stressful situations, you're able to kind of predict how
Speaker 4: people are feeling before they might even realize it themselves.
Speaker 4: So just to give you an idea, you know, when
Speaker 4: I'm super stressed, I go really quiet. That's how I react.
Speaker 4: And so if people notice in the crew that have
Speaker 4: gone really quiet, they might pick up on the fact
Speaker 4: that I'm not feeling good or like that, that something's
Speaker 4: up with me before I might even notice myself. And
Speaker 4: whereas other people, you know, get much more light and
Speaker 4: much stress in when they're upset as well. I mean,
Speaker 4: that's a very basic thing. And then also obviously on
Speaker 4: top of that, you've got sort of cultural understanding as well,
Speaker 4: because it's probably quite likely that a mission is going
Speaker 4: to be a multicultural mission, and then also on top
Speaker 4: of that sort of genders how that composition is going
Speaker 4: to be and nationality and the cultural differences that come
Speaker 4: with that as well, or going into malting pot, and
Speaker 4: so it's hard to predict at this stage what and
Speaker 4: who that mission is going to be. I mean, is
Speaker 4: it going to be a commercial mission, is it going
Speaker 4: to be a governmental mission? Is going to be a
Speaker 4: mix of everything that we and which nationality we don't
Speaker 4: really know at this point, but it's exciting.
Speaker 5: To think that.
Speaker 3: So what I want to follow up on when Peter
Speaker 3: asked you, though, what is it as far as you
Speaker 3: can assess, what is it about your emotional or character
Speaker 3: makeup that has made this doable for you? I mean,
Speaker 3: I understand that you're interested in the study, but you
Speaker 3: have to be in it in order to do it.
Speaker 3: So how did you know that you would be able to.
Speaker 1: Function like this?
Speaker 4: It's a funny question that I get a lot, and
Speaker 4: it's not that I had ever really honestly plan to
Speaker 4: go and do it. I guess for me, like, so,
Speaker 4: my background is I love skating, and so that had
Speaker 4: taken to me to like lots of sort of extreme
Speaker 4: remote places like for example, I've worked a lot in
Speaker 4: Greenland already, I've been up to the North Pole, I've
Speaker 4: done lots of of extreme environments stuff.
Speaker 5: And that really stems from a real interest in.
Speaker 4: How our bodies perform in these kind of extreme environments
Speaker 4: and also like high performing teams, sports teams, that kind
Speaker 4: of thing, and that's really what got me interested in
Speaker 4: the project. And yeah, I guess when I first first
Speaker 4: waked to Easter about the project for European Space Agency,
Speaker 4: they were like, oh, yeah, it's going to be like
Speaker 4: you know, like nine months maybe ten months and then
Speaker 4: suddenly you're there for fourteen months. And I guess, like
Speaker 4: for me, like personally, like I really like sort of
Speaker 4: new experiences. I've been really interested in antartica and kind
Speaker 4: of my whole life really and but the real thing
Speaker 4: that sort of pinched it for me is that I
Speaker 4: feel like, really passionate about exploration, and I really think
Speaker 4: that sort of spaceflight is the next frontier of exploration,
Speaker 4: and I think that as researchers we can well, you know,
Speaker 4: while I'm I'm very unlikely to be on the Mars
Speaker 4: mission myself, I think that, you know, when we do
Speaker 4: step foot on Mars, I feel that by having anticipated
Speaker 4: in the research and helping to sort of further our
Speaker 4: knowledge on this subject, it really feels that you can
Speaker 4: sort of be part of that. And for me, that's
Speaker 4: really exciting and I want. That's what really sort of
Speaker 4: matanated me to go down into it.
Speaker 3: So I'll ask this of you, but I guess you
Speaker 3: can extrapolate it into people who participate in this. So
Speaker 3: you said, oh, I thought it'd begon eight nine months,
Speaker 3: and it turn I'd be fourteen months.
Speaker 1: What happens to all your.
Speaker 3: Relationships, your friendships your parents, your siblings, your significant others
Speaker 3: or whatever.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're in isolation, are.
Speaker 3: You allowed to be in contact with them at all?
Speaker 4: Or you?
Speaker 1: It's just all on hold.
Speaker 5: It's a funny thing actually, because.
Speaker 3: Your friendships, your parents, your siblings, your significant others, or whatever.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you're in isolation, are you allowed to
Speaker 3: be in contact with them at all?
Speaker 1: Or you?
Speaker 6: It's just all it's a funny thing actually because so
Speaker 6: we did have contact, So we had like really slow internet.
Speaker 5: So it's a bit like darl up.
Speaker 4: You could go and like put like a Weber dress
Speaker 4: into the Internet and then like come back in like
Speaker 4: five minutes of pup of tea and it would have uploaded.
Speaker 4: So you couldn't just like rise unless you have you know,
Speaker 4: patients of the same. It's just like really slow. Having
Speaker 4: said that, like if you pick like the right kind
Speaker 4: of time of day. So we had a really limited
Speaker 4: internet connection and a lot of that was used sort
Speaker 4: of the bandwidth was used for uploading data, but if
Speaker 4: you've sort of put it in the middle of the night,
Speaker 4: you could get a really good like zoom call, for example,
Speaker 4: with friends and family back home. It was kind of
Speaker 4: weird because actually, I think if you were too much
Speaker 4: in touch with your friends back home personally, it made
Speaker 4: me feel really homesick. And also you could get like
Speaker 4: anxious about different things going on, like world events and stuff,
Speaker 4: because you're not able to actually, you know, if something
Speaker 4: does go wrong, if you have a friend or many
Speaker 4: members that's sick, like you're not able to go back
Speaker 4: and see them, and so like it was always a
Speaker 4: bit of a balance, you know, like some days it
Speaker 4: was really good to kind of take a step back,
Speaker 4: like speak to your friends, like it kind of put
Speaker 4: a good perspective of life in the station. You know,
Speaker 4: like at one point, everyone's getting it really upset because
Speaker 4: we've run out of taking napkins.
Speaker 5: And like at the time, it seemed like the biggest
Speaker 5: problem in the world.
Speaker 4: And then you like call home and everyone's just like
Speaker 4: what baf what are you on about it? Like it's
Speaker 4: really not an issue, And then it was actually really helpful.
Speaker 4: But at other points, you know, you'd be like sat
Speaker 4: on like Saturday night, like we were friends going out
Speaker 4: in like London, and you're just like, oh, what am
Speaker 4: I doing here? Like start in the middle of nowhere
Speaker 4: and made you a bit jealous, So I think I
Speaker 4: think it's important to like have a bit of a limit.
Speaker 4: And it's an interesting question for like long deration space fight,
Speaker 4: especially because you know, if you have just unlimited access
Speaker 4: of communication to friends and family back home, then we're
Speaker 4: not able to like monitor what's coming in, and so
Speaker 4: we're also not able to monitor like bad news and
Speaker 4: so like historically on Antarctic stations, all the messages used
Speaker 4: to come through the station leader. Through that that they
Speaker 4: were also able to like monitor to some extent what
Speaker 4: information was coming and so if there was, for example,
Speaker 4: of fatality or like someone was breaking up, there's somebody
Speaker 4: then they would have a better understanding of what might
Speaker 4: be going on in that person's life and also be
Speaker 4: able to support them through that.
Speaker 5: Some of those a guy who was engaged.
Speaker 4: When he came down to the station and didn't tell
Speaker 4: anybody that actually they're completely breaking up that halfway through
Speaker 4: the mission.
Speaker 1: Can you explain? Because this I found fascinating third quarter syndrome,
Speaker 1: and as it relates to if you've been out of
Speaker 1: society for a while and this is your society, you
Speaker 1: don't really have somebody giving feedback on what's appropriate anymore
Speaker 1: in society it's whatever this society you created says is appropriate.
Speaker 1: What do you do? What do you do with third
Speaker 1: quarter syndrome? When people are getting weird or weird or
Speaker 1: weirder and that kind of stuff happens and you're in
Speaker 1: total isolation. Who you calling?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's pretty wild.
Speaker 4: But I guess in reality, I think actually people were
Speaker 4: more cautious about relationships and that kind of thing. And
Speaker 4: you know, you could of It's not that you go
Speaker 4: out and like Saturday night and be a bit loose
Speaker 4: because because you're going to see the person the next
Speaker 4: day and for the rest of the mission.
Speaker 5: So actually, I think if anybody.
Speaker 4: Actually had feelings for someone, then they would kind of
Speaker 4: be a lot more slow, a lot more thoughtful about it.
Speaker 4: And and I mean in reality, there wasn't it wasn't
Speaker 4: really that much possi in terms of relationships. You know,
Speaker 4: you're stuck with it. It's not that much choice. So
Speaker 4: but I mean they have been relationships happening, and there's
Speaker 4: also obviously been breakups as well, so it is a
Speaker 4: difficult thing to manage, and I think crews do find
Speaker 4: it difficult.
Speaker 5: And and there were obviously sort of.
Speaker 4: Interactions within the crew, which were sort of based on
Speaker 4: that as well, which was sometimes challenging, especially as being
Speaker 4: a female DYNA. So we have three girls and ten guys,
Speaker 4: so that's like quite a big wow.
Speaker 1: Well, can you explain that as a relate? So I
Speaker 1: mentioned third quarter syndrome, can you explain to people there
Speaker 1: are things that happen at different points and you need
Speaker 1: to be aware of what's going to happen at those
Speaker 1: different points and it's pretty standard, correct, Yeah, And I mean.
Speaker 4: So of course, it was just like it was really challenging,
Speaker 4: Like I was, I was surprised by high challenging. It
Speaker 4: was because you kind of cruised through the first two
Speaker 4: what is and like, you know, the first quarter is
Speaker 4: super exciting. You're in an out there for me my
Speaker 4: dream to go down there, and there's a lot going on.
Speaker 4: There's a lot to like keep you busy or like
Speaker 4: setting up all the experiments. And then you kind of
Speaker 4: come into the second quarter and you've still got like
Speaker 4: little bits to do, but you're kind of getting the
Speaker 4: hang of being there and you're kind of getting used
Speaker 4: to it, and you know, it's like when you go
Speaker 4: on holiday, you know, the environment feels kind of crazy
Speaker 4: to start with but then you kind of get used
Speaker 4: to it wherever you are in the world. And you're
Speaker 4: also going into like the long polar night, so that
Speaker 4: has its novelty as well. With like you know, firsh
Speaker 4: you like walk out the door in the middle of
Speaker 4: the day and it would be like you look at
Speaker 4: the milk away and it.
Speaker 5: Was like it's pretty special. It's kind of cool time.
Speaker 4: And then you come to midwinter, which is like kind
Speaker 4: of like Christmas in Antarctica, and that time also is
Speaker 4: kind of nice because you're like you're interacting with all
Speaker 4: the other stations, like only obviously not in person, but
Speaker 4: like over a messenger and stuff, and wishing each other
Speaker 4: like happy midwinter, and like having celebrations as a crew,
Speaker 4: which you're all kind of actually importantly all working together
Speaker 4: on the same task, which is actually really good for
Speaker 4: the team dynamics, you know, having these like communal things
Speaker 4: that you're working on. And then it's over and everyone
Speaker 4: just feels completely lost. You're like exhausted. You haven't seen
Speaker 4: the sun for like over a month. You feel like
Speaker 4: you've been in Antarctica forever and it's still exactly the
Speaker 4: same amount of time left to go, and people just
Speaker 4: get really really down, really tired, really forgetful, Like I remember,
Speaker 4: I would start because because of FT three syndrome as well,
Speaker 4: you just get really forgetful and a bit confused, and
Speaker 4: like you'd be trying to put like the wrong shoe
Speaker 4: on the wrong foot.
Speaker 5: I would start doing a task and then.
Speaker 4: I forgot that I've done that and start doing something else,
Speaker 4: and then like turn around me and realize that, like
Speaker 4: the SUSI has been going for like hours. You're like, oh,
Speaker 4: so it was just it was a really confusing time
Speaker 4: and and yeah, and everyone did struggle. That's definitely where
Speaker 4: a lot of the arguments kind of came up. I
Speaker 4: think in terms of arguments, it was kind of interesting.
Speaker 4: I thought that it would be like more fiery because
Speaker 4: I was on a French Italian station. We've got Italians everywhere.
Speaker 4: You think it's going to be like a bit more hectic,
Speaker 4: But actually it was like this weird kind of Nobody
Speaker 4: wanted to be like the bad guy, and so nobody
Speaker 4: wanted to be visually seen as being obnoxious or annoying
Speaker 4: or like as being.
Speaker 5: Mean to someone else, and so just keep me an idea.
Speaker 5: There was one person that didn't particularly like me on
Speaker 5: the crew and instead of like being openly unpleasant to me,
Speaker 5: they would just like hide all my things.
Speaker 1: Constantly hide all your things.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'd go to go outside, like obviously you
Speaker 4: need loads of gear to go. It's like it's like
Speaker 4: minus eighty centigrade really really cool, and.
Speaker 5: Like my glove would be gone and you're like, where's
Speaker 5: my glove? Got?
Speaker 4: Like and then the next day again, then my boots
Speaker 4: would be gone and it would be like hidden somewhere
Speaker 4: in the station.
Speaker 5: It just dave you not. It was just like this
Speaker 5: weird like underlying thing going on the station.
Speaker 1: Are you then allowed to write down? This man should
Speaker 1: not go to Mars? Are you allowed to report? How
Speaker 1: about this man should not be out of this room
Speaker 1: tomorrow if you took my boots? What are you kidding me?
Speaker 1: How do you go to the next day if he did? Okay,
Speaker 1: it's small.
Speaker 5: Thing to do, but it drives you crazy, Like.
Speaker 1: It's not small. That's not small.
Speaker 3: I mean you need that just like hiding the toilet paper.
Speaker 6: That's not all the chocolate in the roof as well, that.
Speaker 1: I would do. What do you do to have people? Well?
Speaker 4: So like so I mean a lot of work has
Speaker 4: been done on this particular period to try and like
Speaker 4: try and make improve it. And I mean one of
Speaker 4: the one of the biggest things which I just touched
Speaker 4: on there was about having these team tasks because actually
Speaker 4: as a crew, you all go down because you have
Speaker 4: your own skill or skill set. Because they can't have
Speaker 4: many people on the station. They want to have as
Speaker 4: few people in the station as possible to make it
Speaker 4: all work properly, and so you're all quite individually quite
Speaker 4: different in terms of what skills you're bringing to the station,
Speaker 4: and so as the virtue is that you end up
Speaker 4: all having quite different jobs and tasks on the station,
Speaker 4: and you're not often working collaboratively on lots of things.
Speaker 5: And so one of the big things.
Speaker 4: That they found has been really effective in improving team
Speaker 4: cohesion is having these like shared goals within the team.
Speaker 4: And so there's a big focus of that during that period.
Speaker 4: And it's kind of interesting because like actually Concordia, which
Speaker 4: is that station the first over winter, the station wasn't
Speaker 4: quite ready to be to be overwintered in a lot
Speaker 4: of it still hadn't been finished, like the kitchen wasn't done,
Speaker 4: the like sinning area wasn't done, and there was a
Speaker 4: big kind of question over whether or not they were
Speaker 4: going to winter or not, and in the end they
Speaker 4: decided that they would, but that the crew would help
Speaker 4: kind of build the station during that winter, and it
Speaker 4: was actually the most effective winter that they ever had
Speaker 4: because the crew were all like working together on all
Speaker 4: these shared tasks trying to build everything and try to
Speaker 4: make everything, and it was.
Speaker 5: Actually really good for the dynamics team.
Speaker 4: And so we try and like replicate that as well
Speaker 4: in future over winters, to try and put these kind
Speaker 4: of artificial tasks in place where people have to work
Speaker 4: together effectively for and that's been fun to be really useful.
Speaker 1: How about this test and we found my freaking book. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go back a step. Wait, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: because I'm trying to understand.
Speaker 3: So you said there was one person on the crew
Speaker 3: who decided that he didn't you said, like you or whatever?
Speaker 1: But did they? Did they? At what point did he
Speaker 1: realize that? I mean?
Speaker 3: Did would they have sent you in if if they
Speaker 3: knew that that somehow somebody irritated somebody going in? Is
Speaker 3: that part of the researcher I'm trying to figure out
Speaker 3: what the hell you could have done to this guy?
Speaker 1: I would they not have screened for that or something.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: Well, the chef actually from the winter before, so he
Speaker 4: was like coming out of his winter when I was
Speaker 4: going into my winter.
Speaker 5: We had like a bit of overlap during the summertime,
Speaker 5: and he.
Speaker 4: Actually wrote to Easther and said that he thought that
Speaker 4: I was an experiment that being put into the project
Speaker 4: because I was like a young girl and thought that
Speaker 4: it was Easter trying to mess with the dynamics station
Speaker 4: and that I should be like removed from the program
Speaker 4: before we even Oh it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1: That wasn't a red flag for Captain whoever.
Speaker 3: They think it's like an episode of Big Brother, you know.
Speaker 1: So we gotta wrap like two questions. Do you have
Speaker 1: locks on the doors? No, okay, I don't. That's something
Speaker 1: I'm bringing. I'm bringing a padlock. That's number one. But
Speaker 1: I also wonder too about the answer morphizing If I
Speaker 1: got that right, like and castaway. I understand with like
Speaker 1: seafaring guys who were lost and seeing whatever they start
Speaker 1: doing that that that Wilson the volleyball is not an
Speaker 1: unusual story.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so when I arrived again, so when I arrived
Speaker 4: during the summer, the overwintering crew from before just leaving,
Speaker 4: and one of them had like all the fresh fruit
Speaker 4: and vegetables and everything comes in during the summer on
Speaker 4: the flight, and one of them had like find like
Speaker 4: a lettice leave with like a slug on it and
Speaker 4: like it kept it as like a pet because like
Speaker 4: we and I was like, this is staying up. So
Speaker 4: I like come from like London like May and but
Speaker 4: actually like by the time I got to the end
Speaker 4: of my winter, I can kind of relate to it
Speaker 4: because it's strange, like at Congoria, there's no path, there's
Speaker 4: no other animals living. We haven't even found bacteria to
Speaker 4: be able to survive in the environment outside because it's
Speaker 4: just so extreme, and so you just get this weird
Speaker 4: thing where like everyone's kind of the same age more
Speaker 4: or less. But you don't see old people, you don't
Speaker 4: see young people, you don't see any animals. You don't
Speaker 4: see like you don't get to like jump and submerge
Speaker 4: yourself into water because it's all frazen. You know, like
Speaker 4: if you like throw a hot cup of tea outside,
Speaker 4: the window vaporizes before and there's these weird simple things
Speaker 4: of life that you really miss. Just like the smell
Speaker 4: of trees, there's no mud or dirt or anything like that,
Speaker 4: and so there is something different and there's something special
Speaker 4: about being off for sure, which makes you kind of
Speaker 4: trip a little bit.
Speaker 1: I think, doctor bethewly, thank you so much. Are you
Speaker 1: going back into some sort of crazy situation or are
Speaker 1: you done with that?
Speaker 5: We'll see. I'm always you know, I'm somewhere remote, but
Speaker 5: maybe not.
Speaker 1: And if you see the butter, if you're out in
Speaker 1: the of and you see I'm the boot stealer, do
Speaker 1: you go? I mean, yeah, something waiting now right here.
Speaker 1: We're going at it right now, thanks very much.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Now I'll go to the moon. You take me
Speaker 5: to the moon. I think that's really all right.
Speaker 1: How you would go to the moon?
Speaker 3: Probably the yeah, yeah, don't wait for me to go
Speaker 3: on that mission.
Speaker 1: If you want to get that. He's not even going
Speaker 1: up to the council to go.
Speaker 3: That would be the worst part for me, is going
Speaker 3: into the There's no way. Yeah, that would be well,
Speaker 3: good luck.
Speaker 1: I hope you get your dreams and wishes and maybe
Speaker 1: we'll talk to you after the moon mission. So do
Speaker 1: you know what God meane? What I realize is after
Speaker 1: a certain period of time become seinfall because firshing a yelling,
Speaker 1: she stealing. It's like that's I read about that third
Speaker 1: quarter syndrome where like the first half you're excited and
Speaker 1: then you're just not and then you get aggressive. I
Speaker 1: don't need to be a guy underpants.
Speaker 3: Well, the other thing I wanted to tsk that we
Speaker 3: didn't ask is you know, would it be better or
Speaker 3: worse if you sent actual couples or if you spent
Speaker 3: very close friends.
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 3: Is it gonna be Is it gonna help the situation?
Speaker 3: Or are they gonna Are they gonna fall apart?
Speaker 1: We kill each other in the first third because they're
Speaker 1: already knowing each other.
Speaker 3: Here's the other thing. This is the real thing I understand.
Speaker 3: I'm sure the excitement of exploration. I would I listen
Speaker 3: if if we suddenly are sending a mission to Mars.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna be listening to that story in Celan because
Speaker 3: I think it's fascinating.
Speaker 1: But what do we do?
Speaker 3: And they go, well, we have to get to Mars
Speaker 3: to get beyond. Beyond is worse.
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you something else. You're my closest friend
Speaker 1: in the world. We've spent over thirty some years. We
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time together. I love you. You're
Speaker 1: in that thing with me. I'll kill you. I'll kill you.
Speaker 3: We haven't shared a hotel room. You and I would
Speaker 3: kill you. You're in the room next door.
Speaker 1: Are your mother? You hid my sod? So stopping you?
Speaker 1: Can you imagine you hid my glove? I can't go
Speaker 1: outside because things that annoy us. Now that we go outside,
Speaker 1: we joke about what annoys is now in part of
Speaker 1: our friendship. Right months five in isolation, it's over. Where's Jason?
Speaker 1: I don't want to say, is that his blood on
Speaker 1: your shirt could be Google high.
Speaker 5: I have her glove.
Speaker 1: And we're out. Good night, everybody.
Speaker 3: You've convinced me that isolation may be best for something
Speaker 3: some people, and I can clearly say not choosing me
Speaker 3: from Mars.
Speaker 1: Goodbye now by everybody.
Speaker 7: As another episode of really no really, he comes to
Speaker 7: a close. I know you're wondering who holds the record
Speaker 7: for being in isolation the longest. Well, I will share
Speaker 7: that answer with you and you alone in a moment.
Speaker 1: But first let's thank our guest, doctor Beth Heally.
Speaker 7: You can follow her on Instagram and x where she
Speaker 7: is at Bethaheally or on her website betheely dot com,
Speaker 7: although of course her actually contacting you back is unlikely.
Speaker 7: Find all pertinent links in our show notes, our little
Speaker 7: show hangs out on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and threads at
Speaker 7: really No Really podcasts, And of course you can share
Speaker 7: your thoughts and feedback with us online at reallynoreally dot com.
Speaker 7: If you have a really some amazing factor story that
Speaker 7: boggles your mind, share it with us, and if we
Speaker 7: use it, we will send you a little gift. Nothing
Speaker 7: life changing, obviously, but it's the thought that counts. Check
Speaker 7: out our full episodes on YouTube, hit that subscribe button
Speaker 7: and take that bell so you're updated when we release
Speaker 7: new videos and episodes, which we do each Tuesday. So
Speaker 7: listen and follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts
Speaker 7: or wherever you get your podcasts. And now the answer
Speaker 7: to the question what is the longest a human being
Speaker 7: has lived in self inflicted isolation? Well, the current record
Speaker 7: seems to be held by Beatrice Flamini, an extreme athlete
Speaker 7: from Spain. Her comparison, the previous record had been held
Speaker 7: by an Italian sociologist named Maurizio Montalbini he spent two
Speaker 7: hundred and ten days completely isolated from everyone and everything
Speaker 7: in a cave in nineteen eighty seven. Ms Flamini, however,
Speaker 7: blew that record away when she isolated herself in an
Speaker 7: underground cave from November of twenty twenty one till April
Speaker 7: of twenty twenty three, for a grand total of five
Speaker 7: hundred days, more than doubling the record. She spent much
Speaker 7: of the time exercising.
Speaker 1: Drawing, reading, and knitting.
Speaker 7: She could send text messages out, but could not receive
Speaker 7: messages back. She was sent supplies but never saw or
Speaker 7: interacted with her supply team. After emerging from the cave,
Speaker 7: she said she basically enjoyed her time alone and felt
Speaker 7: she could easily have gone another five hundred days without
Speaker 7: any emotional problems, Which leads me to think, what with
Speaker 7: all the problems in this world, maybe the answers we
Speaker 7: just moved back to the caves. People Who's with me?
Speaker 7: Or more relevantly, who's willing to leave me alone?
Speaker 4: M hm?
Speaker 7: Really? No, really is production of iHeart Radio and Blaise
Speaker 7: Entertainment
Speaker 2: M