WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 41 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:28.600 can make your own decisions. Uh, welcome to it could 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:32.760 happen here a podcast about things falling apart and how 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.720 to deal with that and hopefully take care of yourself 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.800 and your people. UM. Today we have a returning guest, 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:44.200 Carl Casarda from Enranged TV. UM. Now, Carl, every time 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:46.879 you and I have chatted on a show together, it 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:50.640 has been about firearms, which is obviously your passion and specialty, 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:52.760 well one of your specialties. But today we're not talking 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.560 at all about guns. UM. I mean maybe here and there, 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.240 but today we're talking about the thing that is has 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.880 been your your career, uh for what most of your 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.360 working life. Fair to UM, you want to kind of 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.160 walk through your background, he because we're gonna be talking 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:09.880 about information security and like sort of the future of 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.520 threats that are going to be like coming uh throughout 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:17.119 like the next few years of our lives. Obviously this 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:19.399 year in particular, there's been a bunch of stories about 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:22.600 like Russian attacks on digital infrastructure and vice versa. And 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.399 that's always, like pretty much has been something that's in 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.800 everybody's backburn since we got the Internet, usually through like 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:33.319 questionable films with Sandra Bullock. Um, I think net that 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:37.720 was net right? Um? The Net? The Net? Yes, exactly, Yes, 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.040 where they somehow hacked a car and nineteen or something. 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:43.560 You gotta do that when you're flying through cyberspace with 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:48.160 your right yea. Um. But yeah, you want to walk 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.400 everyone through kind of what your actual background is in 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.960 this industry first. Yeah, totally. So if anyone watches in 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:55.800 Rangers watched it for a long time, you'll see this 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:57.760 reflected in some of my content because I do deal 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.560 with some of this intermittently on the channel. It's definitely 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.520 influenced how I approach my work there with the social 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.680 media and all that. But so way back when I 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.080 was like one of those kids that was in the 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:10.480 hacker space, and I grew up like trying to make 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:12.800 computers and technology do what it wasn't designed to do, 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:14.440 and learn to make it do things it shouldn't have 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.120 done for my own interests or others around me, Not 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:19.240 not in any really negative way, but like just a 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:21.760 deep curiosity and how does this stuff work? And being 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.840 part of the early online community. We're talking pre internet, 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.400 where you have like an acoustic coupling jack modem and 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.799 you would dial in like war games, yea, literally plug 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.560 your headset into the fat. I was on boards like 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:37.040 that way back when whatever should have gone past those days. 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:40.280 Doing things wirelessly was such a mistake, Like I'm so 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.560 piste off that when I like sit down to research, 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.320 I'm not like jacking into a gigantic box um like 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.480 it that makes me live it Like shadow Run promised 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.399 me that I was going to be like using one 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.440 hand to shoot at the approaching corporate security guards and 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.760 have another hand on my like keyboard that I wear 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.120 around my neck that I like plug into the wall 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:05.080 to hack buildings. Well, hey, maybe someday we'll have neurological 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.680 implants or wet wire implants brought to us by Monsanto 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.040 that'llually the RM and will just get shut off in 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.720 our own rooms right from the mouth to God's ears, 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:15.560 Carl absolutely, who doesn't want that? Who doesn't want my 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:19.399 neural tissue tied directly to a corporation? But that fuck yes? 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:22.520 But anyway, so I grew up in that space, and 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.919 it actually, back then it naturally turned into a career. 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.040 It wasn't like now nowadays you pretty much have to 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.840 go get a bunch of certificates and a college degree 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.840 to even start looking at an infract career. But back then, 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:36.280 if you kind of had like skills with a Z 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.040 at the end of you could get a job. And 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.280 I landed up doing like help desk at this one company. 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:43.760 Landed up they noticed that that's where my interests were, 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.600 and I ended up becoming their information security architect over 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:48.960 a couple of years, and that turned into a multiple 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.480 decade career pretty much culminating and working at a Tier 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:57.160 one Internet backbone provider doing sub seed fiber optic like routing, 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:01.200 networking and de DOS mitigation and bought neck control search 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.360 and destroy. So it really turned into a really wide career, 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:07.680 not only like when I started off backbone Internet, but 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:11.520 like encryption, firewalls, application layer controls across the board for 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.080 multiple corporations. So it was a weird and interesting space. 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:17.720 But I don't really do that much anymore except on 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.040 the side, but I've had a pretty exciting career with it. 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:24.240 So I think probably a good place to start is 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:26.360 just in general, because folks are always interested about this. 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:28.880 What what do you What is your recommendation for people 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:30.600 ask like, what should I be doing to kind of 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:36.919 protect myself as I forced my head under the constant 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:40.279 stream of sewer water that is social media these days? Well, yeah, 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:42.760 you know, the simplest thing and everything, an infosec is 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.200 always controversial, just like anything life or any any recommendation 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:48.880 makes someone's gonna be like but otherwise or anyways, or 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.800 there's a better solution, and there always is a better solution. 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.000 But the realistic thing is when you talk to the 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.840 average person, the average person isn't gonna sit there and 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.000 hack a Linux box to have a better social media experience. 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.320 That's just not realistic. So the best thing anyone can do, 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.920 the simplest, best thing, is to get one of the 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.840 trusted password managers. There's a number of them out there. 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:10.839 I'm not going to recommend an individual one right now, 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.560 because anyone I recommend someone's gonna go. But there's another one, 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:15.640 but there's a few of them out there. Having a 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:20.600 password manager and having a unique, difficult, complex password for 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.560 every account you log in onto on the internet is 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.159 the first number one thing you can do as an 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.120 individual to protect your interest. Because if you're logging in 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:33.080 with the same password monkey to Facebook, Twitter, and your 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.760 bank account, that is a disaster waiting to happen. So 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.880 the first thing you can do password manager passwords you 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.719 yourself can't remember. As a result, I allow the password 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.120 manager to generate like twenty four character long alpha numeric 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.480 crypto nonsense. You put a gun on my mouth to say, 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:49.280 what's your password to your bank and I don't know. 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:51.479 I can't give it you. I have no idea. And 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.440 so that right there is the first thing any basic 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:57.719 individual can do to protect themselves on the Internet that, 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:01.200 uh is totally sensible. Um, I don't I'm not great 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.720 at password managers, but I never know what my passwords 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:05.560 are and they're all different, and so my life is 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.720 this constant stream of like needing to figure out what 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.480 my password was, failing and resetting it. But it does 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.520 mean that I change passwords regularly, right, But what's so 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:17.880 great about password managers. You can have passwords that you 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.240 could never human remember, and you can have neak ones 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.359 per website, every website you log in, you could be unique. 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.320 And by having it in this database that's properly encrypted 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.040 with a key phrase or even dual factor, then at 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.119 that point means you literally just can cut and paste 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.760 your passwords into things you don't yourself know what they 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.039 are and if depending on your privacy levels, you can 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.720 do that locally with local solutions with files like on 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.159 your own machine. But frankly a couple of the cloud 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:45.240 based solutions, as much as the cloud freaks people out, 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:47.480 is the better one because it'll work on your phone, 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:50.760 it'll work on your black top, it'll work on everything everywhere. 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.080 That makes total sense. Um. I think Another good thing 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.000 to get into while we're on this subject. We just 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.880 started talking about passwords, and obviously it is important to 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:02.440 keep and secure though is um I think one thing 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.839 folks don't often think about, especially people who are activists 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.960 um who who may foresee or have engaged in things 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:13.040 that are legally questionable, don't think about enough is social 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:17.000 media networking um as, and by which I mean having 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.200 social media that like it is possible to find your 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.120 other social media by like knowing you know, like having 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:26.560 the same name and Twitter and on Instagram and stuff. Um, 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.880 having social media that like can be tracked across accounts. Um. 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.000 Most people would be surprised at how easy it is 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.560 to do that. A hug and melanct a huge amount 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.840 of tracking. Nazis tracking even like a ton of the 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.520 what the work I did not do, but my colleagues 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:45.880 did to like doc docs Russian like secret service agents 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:48.720 and stuff. Was like, oh, we found them in you 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.720 know somebody, uh, their their bosses wedding, Like they're tagged 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.560 in this thing in VK And from that we were 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.720 able to like find their their account on this other 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:00.840 site and like from that, like now we have this 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:02.920 like map of everywhere they've been for the last like 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.040 three weeks, and we can build this social map of 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.160 their entire life. Yeah. No, by list by just literally 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.560 existing in modern space, you're constantly leaking some form of metadata, 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.000 right you are. You are always leaking metadata, And the 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:17.200 more of you allow to exist in the world, the 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.520 more that's the case. So, like there's also you've got 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:21.360 to think about what the threat is and what the 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.800 risk is. Right, there's the risk of the individual having 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.560 a pair of social relationship with the Internet like I 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.360 do as a content creator is one thing. People, there's 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.320 always someone that wants to delve into your private life. 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:35.199 But that's a very different risk than a nation state actor. Right, 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:37.320 those are two different things. And when it comes to 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.760 a nation state actor, quite honestly, unless you're real good 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:42.560 and I've been doing it for a long time, the 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:47.920 individual bluntly is kind of fucked word. As a general rule, 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.800 your best security as an individual in that situation is 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:55.320 the anonymity of the crowd. But when we're also not 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.640 talking about most people who are threatened to kind of 0:08:57.679 --> 0:08:59.840 by the state and that situation are not being threatened 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:02.640 by the federal government, but they may have they may 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:06.600 like be attending protests and not want the Louisville Police 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.360 to like put together that they're in an affinity group 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:10.840 with people and like something you can do for that 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.280 is make sure you're not like, if you have a 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.960 personal account that's under your name with your friends, that 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.760 account shouldn't be liking and sharing things from like a 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.080 political account that you have, or from the account of 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:23.160 like a group that you're a part of, or something 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:26.240 like that like, just try to think about and look 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.880 at your your digital footprint from the outside and think, 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.280 is it possible to connect me to people I don't 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.720 want to be publicly connected to through this And the 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.280 minute you've breached that connection once it's gone forever. Right, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.760 this is the forever. Yes, this is the same thing 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:41.720 as like with phones, like someone will have like their 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:43.760 regular phone, which, by the way, all these smartphones are 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:46.719 just surveillance devices in our pocket. Right, Let's let's say 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:48.559 you go get a burner so that you don't want 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:50.480 to be connected to the device that you normally use 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.560 on on a level that's one step above the regular 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.760 individual level. If you ever have those two devices emanating 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:58.680 at the same time, they're now connected in a way 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:02.079 that like, let's say, the authorities can associate them together 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.560 because of triangulation and seeing a burner phone and your 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.240 phone coming from the same house, you've breached all the 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.400 privacy you would have had from your burner phone for example. Now, Karl, 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.000 do you have much to say on the subject of 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:14.960 because I know one thing I have seen people do 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.600 people who are you know, having conversations that they're concerned 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.120 about is put bags in Faraday cages. And I've heard 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:24.760 mixed things about how reliable Faraday bags and stuff are 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.000 for actually stopping signals. Do you have much to say 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.240 on that matter. My experience with that is not all, 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:30.920 not all bags that you can just buy off the 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.840 internet are made equally um So what you want to 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:35.439 do is tested, and you can only test it to 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.000 a certain degree. But the really simple tests are you 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:39.480 put it in the bag and you try to darn 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:41.880 dial the darn thing or use any WiFi connections to it. 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:43.960 And that's a simple test. Now is it as good 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.360 as like? Is it as good as not having the 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:48.640 thing on you? Of course not leaving or else is 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:52.520 always the best answer, but it properly In my opinion, 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.600 a properly built Faraday box or cage or bag that 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.760 you've put some testing into is a pretty reliable solution. 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.600 And it's you know, there are so a problem that 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:05.480 you might encounter is um or that I have. So 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:07.559 one thing I have heard people talk about it is like, well, 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.280 in order to have kind of a private conversation, we 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.120 like drove to a specific location and we left our 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:15.280 phones off in the car and then went on a walk. 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:17.280 And the problem with that is that Now you have 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.760 both just driven to a location with those phones, and 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:23.120 those phones are associated with each other, right right, Well, 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:24.360 so first of all, you got to think of a 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.640 world where all of this metadata is being collected at 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.280 all times. So these phones and their associations in physical 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.680 proximity to one another is stored somewhere at all times, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.320 whether or not it's going to be resourced or accessible 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.480 to the powers that be when they wanted to be. 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.000 It's all there. My phone next to your phone, next 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:43.840 to that guy's phone. Those associations all exist. They're all 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.600 talking to the same cell phone towers in the same area, 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:50.360 giving them not only GPS coordinates but triangulation data, which, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:51.680 by the way, if you go way back to the 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.080 hacker Kevin Mitnick, that stuff was going on back then 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.880 before they had triangulation data to get him, right, So 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.080 that stuff is all still happening, and those association does occur. 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.520 In regards to saying I turned my phone off, how 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.200 do you know that's off? Most of the moderate phones, 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:12.720 what does off mean? And yeah, okay, pull the battery maybe, 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.160 But even then, I would not trust any of these 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:19.960 devices in the regards to them quote being off, especially 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:23.040 things like phones that have unremovable or not removable batteries. 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:27.800 Off is more like sleep it is, right, Yeah, I mean, 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:29.720 I think one of the worst things that's happened for 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.440 personal security is the end of the phone where you 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:37.080 can remove the battery, Like being unable to actually cut 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.080 power to it without you know, disassembling it is a 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.800 real issue. One could argue that there was like that 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.080 that's a much much more insidious reason they did that, 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.000 or one could argue that it was just one of 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:50.120 design and comfort, And it's like hard to say. It 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.640 doesn't really matter if it was insidious or not. Reality 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.800 kind of a poor Knolos dose situation, right totally is 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.520 so when now that we're talking about phones, here's another 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:59.120 thing that's been near and dear, and I think you've 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.080 seen some posts from me out this um. Everybody really 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.720 likes the convenience of things like biometrics, thumb authentication, fingerprint 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.439 i D, facial identification. And here's the reality of that. 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:11.920 We know this already and there's legal this exists in 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.320 legal space already. But the reality is that you can 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:18.400 be coerced to provide biometric data against your will. So 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:20.600 if your phone is authenticated to you with a fingerprint 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:22.839 I D or your facial i D. They can pretty 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.680 much say you must give us your thumb to unlock 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.319 this phone, or for that matter, frankly, they could hold 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:30.880 the phone in front of your face in certain circumstract circumstances, 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.480 even against your will, and it will unlock the device, 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.560 and that is considered not a violation of your rights. So, 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.720 for example, if you had a long, strong password on 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.840 the phone, they cannot coerce you to give that up 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.120 because that would be a violation of your own rights 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.760 and Fifth Amendment, which is interesting um so. But at 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.360 the same time, one could also argue that at certain 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.600 circumstances where there's a lot of cameras that are not 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.160 necessarily watching everything you do. But you could also consider 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.800 that pass phrases could be dangerous, like saying an airport 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.360 because all those members could see you plugging in your 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:03.720 pass code. So it's a matter of if, when and 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.520 where right, So what's the right solution at the best time. 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:07.920 But I would say that if you were going to 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.160 be in a place that was contentious, um it is 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.680 almost always better to make sure you do not allow 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.280 for any biometric authentication on device. Yes, I never like 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.840 never turn on don't even like ever have had it 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.920 in the like ideally you have never turned on facial 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.600 recognition on your phone, like even if you like deactivated, 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.840 I don't know, I don't, I really that was That 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:31.120 was one of the first I used to be in 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.360 tech journalism. Right, obviously I'm not an expert on any 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:37.320 of this, but like the worst thing in terms of 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:39.960 like my personal comfort with devices was when they were like, 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.800 everything's gonna read faces and fingerprints. Now I don't. I 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:48.360 don't love that, um, but you know it's it's inevitable, 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.400 right because it is and I had in the past. 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.680 I did a fingerprint unlock earlier in my life, and 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.240 I do not have any devices that unlocked that way anymore. 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.080 But you do like that it is more convenient, right, 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:00.920 You miss it when you need to get to your 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:03.480 phone quickly and you can't do it. But like, I 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:05.200 don't even I don't even let my phone have just 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.720 like a four phrase like password anymore. Like it's eight 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:10.520 characters for me. It's a little bit of a pain 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.760 in the ass, but it comes with fewer risks and 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.320 one of the things that's challenging to every individuals, they 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.640 have to look at what their threat profile is. Right, 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.600 So like, for example, UM, soccer mom driving her kids 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.000 to school and stuff, she might be really good, well 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:28.200 off with a bottometric authentication on her phone, frankly, because 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.040 if she didn't use that, maybe she wouldn't even use 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.280 a proper four character pass phrase. And if she's not 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.320 concerned about being at a protest, for example, and having 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.280 some authoritarian take her phone away from her and authenticate 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.880 to it, maybe she doesn't need to worry about that. 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:42.400 But for a lot of us in the world's we 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.960 live in, that's a different risk profile, right. We got 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.680 to think about what our risks are as individuals and 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:49.960 what makes sense. So if your passphrase is going to 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.400 be one, two, three, four or use a thumb print 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.440 I D. For most people they'd be better with the 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.200 thumb print I D. But for someone like myself, no, 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.960 it's not a good idea. Yeah, and that's m Yeah. 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.560 I think that kind of brings us to uh, probably 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.200 the last part of this, which is UM, do you 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.880 have specific advice on like VPNs UM? Obviously I recommend 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:15.320 everybody you signal I I just firm messages in general, 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.600 But like a specially stuff that is secure. Don't if 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.840 you if you like number one first rule of any 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:26.880 kind of this sort of security, don't ever put anything 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.040 on your phone ever that's legally questionable if you can 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.920 avoid it, like conversationally, like right, do not don't send 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.840 it over a phone if it's something you would not 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.960 be able to survive having read d you in a courtroom. Yeah, 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:42.920 for the audience, a lot of the audience may not 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.200 know what signal even is. Right, So signal ism is 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.240 a is a text messaging alternative. So like for example, 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:49.760 on your phone, you've got regular text or if you've 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.960 got an iPhone, you've got I message. Signal is an 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.280 end end encrypted solution that you install as an app. 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.360 And because it's end end encryption, it means that it 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:03.160 passes the wire in theory not decryptible by the parties 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.800 that are passing the data packets in the middle. So 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:07.639 that's a man in the middle the decryption. Right. So 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.239 for example, I message is encrypted theoretically end to end, 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.600 but Apple ultimately has the cryptographic keys, so there is 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:17.480 while they might say one thing, there is nothing really 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.399 preventing them from being man in the middle and being 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.440 able to read the message in transit from a to 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.480 be But if the keys are stored on your device, 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.159 which are then protected with your passphrase or whatever your 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.520 authentication mechanism is, and those keys are not archived or 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:35.440 kept by some hierarchical man in the middle authority, if 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.679 it's done right, which Signal is done pretty well, it 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.080 means that your data in transit is probably not decryptable. 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:44.679 And that's why signals a good solution, and it's a 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.600 good one for the average person. Install the app. It 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.359 works just like testa text messaging, but you can have 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.600 a pretty good level of a knowledge that the data 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.640 you're passing is not being decrypted or caught in transmission 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:02.880 or in the path. So I would say get get Signal. Um, 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.920 it's it's your best bet, right Like and again we said, 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.680 I said, you know, you don't want to ever say 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.840 anything over a phone that is something that can get 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.680 you in trouble. But also like life is life, and 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.919 that's not always realistic for people in certain situations. So again, 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.920 signal is your best bet. Nothing is perfect. And again, 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.119 if you're putting it on your phone, there's a number 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.080 of things that could go wrong every single time you 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.359 do that. But um, that that's one of your better 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:32.080 things that you could do. And then of course we 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:36.560 talk about VPNs. Yeah, so so VPN to those like, 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.159 I'm just gonna go with the basic levels because I 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.320 don't necessarily know the level of knowledge that people are listening. 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.199 VPN is a virtual private network. So what that is. 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.720 You connect to this virtual private network and it passes 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.920 your data through an encrypted tunnel to an exit point 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.280 somewhere else on the Internet in theory masking the source 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:59.200 and origin of your requests. So like, for example, let's 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:00.879 say you were looking up something on the Internet that 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.800 you didn't necessarily want people to know you're looking up. Yeah, like, 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.879 let's say you're researching the truth about the assassination of 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.800 President John F. Kennedy by Bernard Montgomery Sanders. Um, and 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:13.919 you know that the n s A is looking for 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:17.200 truth seekers who are who are finding out the reality 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:19.640 of that situation. You know, you don't necessarily want them 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:23.600 to know that you have have become pilled. Right, So 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:25.920 if you were to do this from your computer at home, 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:28.040 But what happen is to people that don't know how 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:29.760 this all works, you would be coming from an I 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:33.239 P address that's associated with your account that you're connecting to, 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:37.040 whether it's Verizon or Comcast or whatever. And you go 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:39.240 and search up that truth and the n s A 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.600 finds you with a keyword search for JFK and the truth. 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.600 And therefore, because of that keyword search, they go to 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.800 Comcast or to Verison and say, hey, we are requesting 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.440 you tell us who did this search. They will get 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.680 them essentially a request that's a legal request for information, 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.399 and then Comcast or Verizon will provide the n s 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.920 A this is the IP address account of the person 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.520 that did that. What VPN does is you connect to 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.760 the vp and service first, the connection from your machine 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.840 to the VPN services then encrypted. Now does the VPN 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:15.000 service know your IP address? Yes, but when you actually 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:16.840 type in that information or go to the Internet to 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.000 request that data, it actually goes through the VPNs Private 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.520 Tunneling network and egresses from somewhere else on the Internet, 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:28.720 thus masking your actual I P address and in theory 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.639 your origin of source. Now that's not true, but what 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:35.600 that does is mean that if someone if say the 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:37.600 n s A I wanted to know who's doing this 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.720 truth search, they would then find an eat IP address 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:45.680 that actually came out of let's say Joe's VPN service, 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:47.919 and they would have to go to Joe's VPN service 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.720 and go we noticed this emanated from your network? Who 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.479 did this? At that point, you have to trust Joe's 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:59.040 VPN service to not disclose their account information about you. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.159 So what you've done is you've changed it. We know 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:05.879 the telecoms will communicate with the government or whoever if 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:09.119 they need to, they always will have You don't necessarily 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.520 know if Joe's VPN service will. You've changed your trust 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:16.439 model from your telecom to your VPN service. So if 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:18.359 you're gonna pick a VPN, you have to do a 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.120 little bit of research to know that it's a trustworthy 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.480 resource that won't just give you up at the lightest 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:27.320 form of interrogation. Yeah, and none of them again, there's 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:30.679 nothing perfect and often like we did find out what 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:33.240 was it last year that one of popular vpn was 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:36.560 like run by the FEDS, Like it's yeah, that's not 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.480 an impossible thing. Um. I know a lot of folks, 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.320 particularly journalists, use proton Um, which is I think based 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.520 in Switzerland, and you will get given up if you 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.240 if the Swiss government is angry at you right, you 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.440 brought up a very good point. Uh, services that exists 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:57.840 outside of the KNUS, the continental US mean that they 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.040 are under different legal jurisdiction the ones that exist wholly 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:04.600 within the KONUS. So as a result, if something from 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.320 the United States government comes as a request to the 0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:11.000 Swiss company, there's a much like like higher chance that 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.400 a Swiss company would be like, we don't really care 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:17.080 about your reports. That's worth considering. Also, think about this, 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:18.720 This actually works in reverse. And I don't want to 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:20.639 get too deep into this, but when you're working at 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:22.800 a tier one internet back one provider, you should know 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:27.880 that sometimes traffic strangely gets pushed offshore and then back 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:30.199 to the United States for analysis that would normally be 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:34.800 let's say, not necessarily constitutionally legal in the United States. 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:40.360 So there's a lot of shenanigans going on. Yeah, and again, like, 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:43.400 I think protons are generally a pretty good service. I've 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:46.880 had no problems with it um, But we should should 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:49.120 be clear here none of these are perfect solutions. There 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:52.440 is no perfect solution. The only perfect method of digital 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.359 security is not putting things on the Internet or like 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:58.280 through you know, the mobile networks and stuff like that is, 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:02.159 if it stays between you someone else, Um, that is 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:05.720 your best bet of it not being you know, intercepted 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:08.520 or something. A conversation that you have in the woods 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:11.560 without phones anywhere near you is the most secure kind 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:14.600 of conversation. Let me second on proton I agree, it's 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:16.040 a good service. There are others out there. We're not 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.119 trying to pick on one in particular or pick against 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:20.359 anyone in particularly. There's a bunch of at work. Yeah. 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:22.560 Another thing that you need to consider in this sort 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:25.119 of thing is also what you're dealing with. Like so 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:27.520 for example, on I put up a post a while 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:29.399 back because there was a bunch of stuff going on 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:32.440 in Ukraine with with people posting photos that got their 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:35.919 locations add things happen that I mean, that's and that 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:38.240 has been happening for a decade in that war, like 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:40.159 a well almost a decade as long as it's been 0:23:40.160 --> 0:23:42.520 going on, And I posted something about it. And one 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:44.800 of the recommendations I made on there was a contentious one, 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:46.119 but I'm gonna back it up in a minute. As 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:49.159 I used I mentioned pour the onion relay. So the 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:54.000 tour is essentially it was originally created as a as 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:58.160 a way to deal with the dark web quote unquote, 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.240 and to also relay traffic in a way to mask 0:24:01.320 --> 0:24:04.320 the origins, very much like a VPN service. Now there 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:05.680 are a bunch of these. So what it was is 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:08.639 there's these Onion relay nodes all over the Internet, and 0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:11.160 when you connect to the to the Onion network, your 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:14.159 traffic bounces through three, four, or five, six, seven of 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:16.520 these nodes. You can sort of dictate what you want 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:18.600 depending on the client you have. And so let's say 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:21.840 you connect to an Onion router network node in Arizona 0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:24.960 and then you egress somewhere in France and you've jumped 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:27.399 through six nodes in the process. Well, one of the 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:29.520 things that's a well known fact is that a number 0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:32.880 of these Onion relay routing nodes are owned by nation 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:36.240 state actors, whether it's the United States or others. So 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:38.480 so one of the things I got taken to task 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:40.199 for and I want to explain this is people like, well, 0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:43.159 that's not the compromise network. It doesn't mean that it's useful. 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:46.600 Actually it does, because depending on what you're trying to do, 0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:50.240 may matter. If you're trying to mask the origin of 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:54.879 your data source or your upload or your search for 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:57.879 a short duration of time, this will still help you 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:00.800 jump through six nodes. They've got to relay back six 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:04.120 nodes to figure out the origin of the person connecting 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:07.280 to the relay network. And that's assuming that there was 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:10.800 a compromise node in the process. So that means if 0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:13.280 you're passing data through a compromise node, does that mean 0:25:13.320 --> 0:25:17.080 the data in transit is safe? No? But is the 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:21.160 Is the anonymity of the origin of the poster safer 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:24.720 for a longer duration of time? Yes, So these things 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:28.120 get really complex, real fast, and this is again one 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:30.000 of the best things you can do, because there's no 0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:33.520 single perfect solution, but stacking, so not just going through 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:35.880 tour but also tour into VPN at the same time, 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:38.800 and you're I think one of the better ways to 0:25:38.800 --> 0:25:42.680 think about security is kind of the way Sebastian Younger 0:25:42.760 --> 0:25:46.200 describes how insurgent war works, which is it's all about 0:25:46.240 --> 0:25:49.640 creating friction for anybody trying to spy on your ship. 0:25:50.080 --> 0:25:52.640 There's no perfect answer, but the more things you can 0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:54.960 make be a pain in the ass, the better your 0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:57.439 odds that you will not have an issue. Right Like, 0:25:57.520 --> 0:26:00.280 that's all you can do is make it potential really 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:04.679 more annoying and more difficult for for whoever might be 0:26:04.720 --> 0:26:07.959 looking right like it. The more friction you can create, 0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:11.520 broadly speaking, the more secure you're going to be. Absolutely 0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:13.479 now another thing to think about, and we're getting kind 0:26:13.480 --> 0:26:14.840 of deep in the weeds too. This is above and 0:26:14.880 --> 0:26:17.280 beyond the average person, right, the average person, get a 0:26:17.320 --> 0:26:20.680 password manager, don't use your same passive everywhere, and don't 0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:23.040 use biometrics unless you're forced, like pretty much have to 0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:25.720 and move on with your life. But once you're beyond 0:26:25.720 --> 0:26:27.920 the average person, this is what we're talking about now. 0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:29.840 So like if you're if you have a computer and 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:32.840 you use it as your normal day to day operating system, 0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:35.200 talking to your friends, doing dot dot dot dot dot, 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:37.359 but then also need to do something else a little 0:26:37.359 --> 0:26:41.160 more privacy inclined, you should not trust that device. So 0:26:41.200 --> 0:26:44.200 at that point, your web browser may have all sorts 0:26:44.240 --> 0:26:47.200 of cookies and metadata and storage in it that, even 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:50.080 if you're going through a VPN, still may be able 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:53.239 to reveal your identity a spell as mac addresses and 0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:55.399 other stuff. So if you really want to get pretty 0:26:55.400 --> 0:26:57.119 into the weeds with this, you have to do something 0:26:57.160 --> 0:27:01.359 like use an ephemeral operating system install that it has 0:27:01.359 --> 0:27:05.000 no legacy data on it. One example of that that's 0:27:05.000 --> 0:27:07.639 a Linux based when it's called TAILS. You essentially use 0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:10.399 it like a live USB drive. You boot off of 0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:12.680 that only, or you use a machine dedicated for this, 0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:15.680 and you burn the OS down every time you're done, 0:27:15.720 --> 0:27:19.159 because there's no legacy information or data that can be 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:22.639 pulled out of your web browser or your cookies or 0:27:22.680 --> 0:27:25.720 your Mac dress information that can associate it with you, 0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:29.000 regardless of if you've done everything right to mask your 0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:32.880 IP address of origin. God, that's the hot girl shit. Um, 0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:35.000 when you're when you're when you're doing when you when 0:27:35.000 --> 0:27:37.639 you're doing that kind of stuff. Um. And again I 0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:39.639 think at this point, I think, up through most of this, 0:27:39.760 --> 0:27:42.440 it's been kind of like people being like that's too much, 0:27:42.480 --> 0:27:44.560 and people being like, Okay, yep, this is exactly what 0:27:44.600 --> 0:27:47.400 I already am or need to be doing. Um, this 0:27:47.480 --> 0:27:50.600 is probably very few people need to be concerned about 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:53.720 that sort of thing, but um, you know it it is. 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:55.840 I I've know I note Like again, I worked at 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:58.360 Belling cat Um. I had a number of colleagues who 0:27:58.359 --> 0:28:01.200 were like personal enemies of the Rush in state who 0:28:02.320 --> 0:28:06.800 had to do stuff like this, um, and it's you know, paranoia. 0:28:06.840 --> 0:28:09.440 I mean, and here's the thing going above. So again, 0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:11.640 like if you're a normal person, you probably don't need 0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:15.040 to be you know, doing stacking a VPN, you know, 0:28:15.440 --> 0:28:19.399 getting signal and all this stuff. But also why not, right, Like, 0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:22.119 there's no harm in in the additional security. It is 0:28:22.119 --> 0:28:24.919 a little bit frustrating. But here's one of the things 0:28:24.960 --> 0:28:27.600 I think people don't often think about enough. You're not 0:28:28.280 --> 0:28:32.320 engaging in that kind of security stuff purely because there's 0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:35.080 a threat now, but in part because you don't know 0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:37.080 what the future is going to bring. And one of 0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:39.480 the things that I would point out for that is 0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:42.440 a lot of people right now have been having for 0:28:42.560 --> 0:28:46.400 years conversations about a thing that may soon legally be 0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:50.680 murder on a federal level, you know, um, abortion, right, 0:28:51.160 --> 0:28:54.880 And so it is possible that overnight an awful lot 0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:58.720 of conversations a bunch of people have had legally will 0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:01.600 suddenly be very illegal conversations. And then you may be 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:04.920 glad that you took greater care with your your personal 0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:07.280 security prior to that point. Yeah, I mean, like, so 0:29:07.400 --> 0:29:09.960 think of the I mean, I'm not a person that menstrates, 0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:12.120 but on menstruation tracking app is very useful to a 0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:14.760 lot of people who do and those tracking apps, now 0:29:15.280 --> 0:29:18.720 that metadata in there at some point could be extremely 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:23.880 dangerous or incriminalized or incrim criminalizing, incriminating excuse me, to 0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:27.320 someone who otherwise was doing nothing more than trying to 0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:30.160 maintain their natural health. And so that is a really 0:29:30.240 --> 0:29:32.720 dangerous concept. So at this point, I mean, within the 0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:35.320 United States, I hate to say this, those apps are 0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:38.800 probably dangerous to the individual because that data could be 0:29:38.880 --> 0:29:42.040 easily used by a government resource to uh, to do 0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:45.240 something bad to someone who's done nothing wrong. So I 0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:46.920 think we should move. I mean, at this point, I 0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:49.040 think we've covered the basis that you could kind of 0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:52.280 responsibly the advice you can responsibly give someone in a podcast. 0:29:52.360 --> 0:29:54.880 And and folks, should it be able to add let 0:29:55.080 --> 0:29:57.640 me throw one thing out real quickly. So you mentioned like, 0:29:57.680 --> 0:29:59.760 for example, we don't you don't necessarily have the risk 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:02.800 actor that requires using VPN or signal. Let me see 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:05.200 this way back when gosh, when I was doing crypto 0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:09.280 work decades ago, I was what you mean cryptography and 0:30:09.360 --> 0:30:12.520 not we should specify these days? Oh yeah, excuse me, 0:30:12.520 --> 0:30:16.760 cryptogracryption work. Yeah, yeah, I I had the opportunity. We're 0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:19.200 Phill Zimmerman of p GP, and actually p g P 0:30:19.320 --> 0:30:22.760 pretty Good Privacy, which was one of the fundamental UH 0:30:22.880 --> 0:30:25.840 security project or projects way back when, was actually written 0:30:25.880 --> 0:30:28.400 for human rights violations. He wrote it because people were 0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:32.640 doing research of like warlords were getting their laptops taken 0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:34.120 away and then finding out who spoke to them and 0:30:34.120 --> 0:30:36.560 getting people killed. So p GP was like this human 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:39.760 rights thing right from the beginning. And cryptography back when 0:30:39.760 --> 0:30:42.360 I was young and naive, I always thought to myself, 0:30:42.600 --> 0:30:44.240 this is what we need. This is the future when 0:30:44.280 --> 0:30:47.880 everyone gets proper crypto will blind the government will blind 0:30:47.920 --> 0:30:51.520 the corporations. We're gonna have this crypto anarchist future where 0:30:51.520 --> 0:30:54.520 the government and corporations can't get us. And the reality 0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:57.440 is most of that God who served. And the truth 0:30:57.480 --> 0:30:59.760 is cryptography is too hard for most people to use, 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:02.000 and as a result we don't. But here's what I 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:04.520 will say. The more people that do something simple like 0:31:04.800 --> 0:31:08.120 you signal or use a VPN just to browse the Internet, 0:31:08.240 --> 0:31:11.360 not because they're doing anything various, just because their privacy 0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:15.960 like conscious, because it makes it normalize and that means 0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:17.920 that the person that's using it because they need to 0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:21.960 for like, let's say, to protect human rights doesn't stick 0:31:22.000 --> 0:31:25.160 out like a needle in the haystack, because everybody's already 0:31:25.160 --> 0:31:28.760 doing something sane in the first place. Normalizing proper privacy 0:31:29.040 --> 0:31:33.280 and cryptography is better for everyone. Yes, yes, absolutely agreed. 0:31:33.840 --> 0:31:35.920 This is a nice segue because you were just talking 0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:40.080 about the past and how beautiful and bright it seemed. Um, 0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:42.280 let's talk about what you see as kind of the 0:31:42.280 --> 0:31:47.760 future of info security threats. Well, I mean, so there's 0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:49.640 so many levels to that. First of all, if we're 0:31:49.640 --> 0:31:52.680 talking nation state level, I personally strongly believe that all 0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:56.640 of the big players have already compromised everyone's network. Everybody 0:31:56.720 --> 0:32:01.160 got everybody has got us. China's about us, We got China. 0:32:01.440 --> 0:32:03.880 Anybody right now could go in and pretty much funk 0:32:03.920 --> 0:32:08.200 up the grid on someone else like that, And there's yeah, 0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:10.920 and that's not actually the least that's that's safer than 0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:13.880 other possibilities, like because there is a level of of 0:32:13.960 --> 0:32:16.440 mutually a shared destruction there where it's like, yeah, man, 0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:18.880 Russia could take down the grid, but like that wouldn't 0:32:18.880 --> 0:32:21.960 be good for them, and vice versa. You know, yeah, no, true. 0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:24.600 So the reality is though everybody's and everybody's network, those 0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:27.800 days are over. Um. When it comes to the individual 0:32:27.840 --> 0:32:31.160 and I'm gonna have a the audience, there might be 0:32:31.160 --> 0:32:33.000 people in the audience to feel differently, and it still 0:32:33.000 --> 0:32:34.640 doesn't mean that we don't try. So one of the 0:32:34.680 --> 0:32:36.640 things I want to say is you're gonna hear some 0:32:36.760 --> 0:32:38.760 skepticism here because I've been doing this career for a 0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:41.840 long time and I've seen things go wrong more than right, 0:32:42.160 --> 0:32:44.760 and so in that regard, this is gonna sound kind 0:32:44.800 --> 0:32:46.720 of cynical. But when it comes to the idea of 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:51.280 individual privacy, in my opinion, with the exception of when 0:32:51.280 --> 0:32:54.840 you're taking a very active effort in something very specific 0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:57.240 that you want to keep private because that's something you're 0:32:57.240 --> 0:33:00.680 working on personally, the reality is individual to all privacy 0:33:00.760 --> 0:33:03.720 is dead and gone, and we're just starting to smell 0:33:03.800 --> 0:33:09.200 that corpse um. Whether it is credit card data transactions, 0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:12.280 your cell phone history, your phone numbers, what you've done 0:33:12.280 --> 0:33:14.840 on the internet, what you've done on social media or 0:33:14.880 --> 0:33:17.160 not done on social media, whether you have an account 0:33:17.200 --> 0:33:20.120 on Facebook or not, doesn't even matter. The metadata and 0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:23.320 the trailer you're leaving behind you is all aggregated, all 0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:26.960 of it behind big data corporations, all of it compromised, 0:33:27.120 --> 0:33:30.240 all of it searchable. Even stuff the government has on 0:33:30.320 --> 0:33:32.920 you has been sold to large corporations because I can 0:33:32.960 --> 0:33:35.000 tell you that some of the data that they kept 0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:37.360 for like let's say D m V or m v D, 0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:40.320 they decided to sell it off to a corporation and 0:33:40.360 --> 0:33:43.680 they themselves access it through a third party when doing 0:33:43.720 --> 0:33:46.440 research on you. So all of that big data, there's 0:33:46.440 --> 0:33:48.959 a law of physics. The more you aggregate, the more 0:33:48.960 --> 0:33:55.959 it will get compromised. Um, geez, I'm sorry, that's the truth. No, no, no, 0:33:56.040 --> 0:34:02.840 I mean yeah, you're you're you're like, it's this Uh, 0:34:02.920 --> 0:34:05.800 there's this frustration because I can remember the days when 0:34:06.600 --> 0:34:10.239 the privacy hounds. And I don't say that in a 0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:13.799 negative term. We're like warning everybody about, Hey, you don't 0:34:13.800 --> 0:34:16.239 want to be aggregating all of these different social media 0:34:16.280 --> 0:34:17.799 things together. Hey you don't want to be using all 0:34:17.840 --> 0:34:20.239 of these services. Hey there's actually some like real downsides 0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:23.120 like all of what's happening. Like part of why things 0:34:23.120 --> 0:34:25.120 are so cheap on Amazon is you know that that 0:34:25.239 --> 0:34:27.480 your data there is is one of the assets that 0:34:27.520 --> 0:34:31.839 they have, And um, those people were absolutely right, and 0:34:31.880 --> 0:34:37.080 they lost harder than anyone has ever lost at anything like. So, 0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:39.080 Like when I was back there at that company doing 0:34:39.080 --> 0:34:41.840 all that cryptography work, we were trying to give crypto 0:34:42.000 --> 0:34:45.160 like to the average general population of the Internet, I 0:34:45.200 --> 0:34:46.920 had this, like I said, this naive view of like 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:49.200 the future that was gonna be this place where we're 0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:51.080 gonna have the Internet where everyone was connected, and it 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:53.719 was gonna be not only would we have personal privacy 0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:56.640 through cryptography, but we would be able to transfer information 0:34:56.680 --> 0:34:58.640 to one another in a way that would make the 0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:01.560 Shenanigans impossible. Well, to some degree that's been true what 0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:04.040 we've seen some of that, But to another degree we 0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:08.400 also have Snowden dropping the bomb on revelations about what 0:35:08.440 --> 0:35:11.040 the government has done to the individual and how they've 0:35:11.080 --> 0:35:13.800 broken the law with all of our privacy and data 0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:16.880 and what came of that a man in exile in 0:35:16.960 --> 0:35:22.439 Russia and pretty much fucking nothing, Yeah right, nothing, And um, 0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:26.279 I was sitting at a Defcon presentation where General Alexander 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:29.040 was on the screen talking about what they weren't doing, 0:35:29.320 --> 0:35:33.040 while Snowden was dropping revelations proving him to be lying, 0:35:34.000 --> 0:35:36.680 and nothing comes of it, right, nothing really comes of it. 0:35:37.080 --> 0:35:40.000 And one of the things that's so real. And so 0:35:40.239 --> 0:35:44.040 whether it's the tribal level, your neighbors across the street 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:47.600 or the internet tribe, we as a people in the 0:35:47.680 --> 0:35:51.600 aggregate are always willing to give up our rights to 0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:54.680 something bigger for convenience. And we've done that and it's 0:35:54.680 --> 0:35:59.239 called Facebook and Twitter and social media. And in the process, 0:35:59.520 --> 0:36:02.760 what was going to be an amazing resource has become 0:36:02.800 --> 0:36:08.000 the trap. Uh. It's such a it's because you know, 0:36:08.160 --> 0:36:11.160 you know Garrison, I I my my friend who is 0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:14.400 much younger than me, Um has grown up with the 0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:19.200 Internet being being what it is now right like this 0:36:19.200 --> 0:36:21.759 this kind of like nightmare trap. You know that that's 0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:24.279 sucking us all in this like giant squid that has 0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:27.520 us in its tentacles. Um. And it's I get I 0:36:27.600 --> 0:36:30.799 sometimes like dissociate talking with them about certain Internet things 0:36:30.840 --> 0:36:35.120 because in my heart it's still the Promised Land. Yeah, 0:36:35.280 --> 0:36:37.799 I wish, I I guess my I wish I felt 0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:39.600 that way. It doesn't feel like that way to me anymore, 0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:41.600 to be honest, I mean, it's it's not right like 0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:44.719 and what I mean that in like sort of I 0:36:44.800 --> 0:36:47.319 have this I don't know. I've never entirely been able 0:36:47.360 --> 0:36:49.160 to like let go of the vision of like, oh 0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:50.960 it could have been There's so many things that could 0:36:51.000 --> 0:36:53.680 have been. Well, it's like, you know, it's like all technology, 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:56.719 anything can be remponized, right right, Like an a R 0:36:56.800 --> 0:36:59.480 fifteen can be used for good or for evil, a 0:36:59.560 --> 0:37:01.440 knife to be used to make a beautiful meal or 0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:04.400 to commit a murder. And the Internet is technology, and 0:37:04.400 --> 0:37:07.160 it has been weaponized. It's been weaponized against us. But 0:37:07.200 --> 0:37:09.120 at the same time, if we just turn a blind 0:37:09.120 --> 0:37:11.279 eye to it and then not learn how to use 0:37:11.320 --> 0:37:14.080 this technology to our advantage, we're allowing them to do 0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:16.400 that unabated. And that's where like the kind of hacker 0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:18.399 mindset comes from, which is like, how do I make 0:37:18.440 --> 0:37:20.520 this thing do what I wanted to do for me 0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:23.640 while not letting someone else do it for them. And 0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:26.920 unless we take control of the technology for ourselves, like 0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:30.920 I said earlier, normalizing using signal and even basic VPN 0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:33.920 and cryptography, then we're just giving it up. We're not 0:37:33.960 --> 0:37:35.960 even making it a challenge. We're just like here, you 0:37:36.239 --> 0:37:38.839 go have it. And Uh, that's something that I think 0:37:38.840 --> 0:37:41.839 that's more important as a community. Maybe as people grow 0:37:41.920 --> 0:37:44.279 up on the Internet versus seeing it becoming something that 0:37:44.600 --> 0:37:49.040 I saw become something maybe either a they'll just accept 0:37:49.200 --> 0:37:51.160 which I hope isn't the case that the reality is 0:37:51.200 --> 0:37:54.560 privacy is dead, or maybe they'll approach the Internet differently 0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:57.440 than say someone at my age did. We're frankly, we 0:37:57.520 --> 0:38:00.600 kind of messed up and we didn't realize the Primrose 0:38:00.640 --> 0:38:04.360 path was actually trapped, and that's a like that was 0:38:04.400 --> 0:38:07.440 a mistake and maybe we can kind of like evolve 0:38:07.560 --> 0:38:10.200 beyond that. But like you're asking, where is info set 0:38:10.239 --> 0:38:12.920 going now, I I don't have good notes for that. 0:38:12.960 --> 0:38:15.080 Like when I first started working in the career, it 0:38:15.200 --> 0:38:17.640 really felt like a great thing. We were doing important stuff. 0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:20.000 We were doing the DOS mitigation. We were going into 0:38:20.040 --> 0:38:24.200 hospitals and making sure that insulin pumps weren't compromised as 0:38:24.200 --> 0:38:28.280 a DIDOS host believe it or not, hospitals are infosect nightmares. 0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:31.319 And we were doing stuff that felt good. And then 0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:33.839 later in the career I realized, wait a minute, I'm 0:38:33.840 --> 0:38:37.080 not doing anything to secure anybody's personal information or make 0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:40.400 the Internet safer. I was just protecting some corporate coffer 0:38:40.880 --> 0:38:43.640 and the reality was that the private information that we 0:38:43.640 --> 0:38:46.919 were supposedly protecting. The debate would turn into calls which 0:38:47.040 --> 0:38:51.200 was what's more expensive losing the data or the lawsuit 0:38:51.280 --> 0:38:54.920 for losing the data. Literally, those were the conversations and corporations, 0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:58.160 and those are the conversations that corporations have now about 0:38:58.160 --> 0:39:02.799 each and every one of ours personal information. Now when 0:39:02.840 --> 0:39:07.160 you when you think about because so I obviously I'm 0:39:07.200 --> 0:39:09.759 in a different was in a different field. But when 0:39:09.800 --> 0:39:12.000 I was doing a lot of the research on terrorism 0:39:12.040 --> 0:39:14.399 that I was doing, I had these things that were 0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:17.200 like sort of the this kind of attack is going 0:39:17.239 --> 0:39:18.959 to happen at something I feel that very much about, 0:39:19.000 --> 0:39:22.000 Like drones. There's going to be like a mass killing 0:39:22.040 --> 0:39:25.680 of civilians not in a war zone by a civilian 0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:28.160 weaponized drone at some point in the not too distant 0:39:28.160 --> 0:39:29.799 futures going to happen. It's going to be done. It's 0:39:29.840 --> 0:39:34.719 absolutely inevitability. Um that kind of stuff. Do you what 0:39:34.800 --> 0:39:36.680 are you when you think about kind of the the 0:39:36.800 --> 0:39:42.359 digital equivalence of that, like, what are you looking towards? Well, 0:39:42.400 --> 0:39:43.799 I agree with you about the drone, Like you can 0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:46.320 see stuff. God, yes, you plot the you plot the 0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:48.120 dots and you know what's going to occur, right, It's 0:39:48.160 --> 0:39:51.080 it's not it's not possible to avoid. We unleashed that 0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:55.040 out of the cage, and it's going to happen. Quite honestly, 0:39:55.080 --> 0:39:58.000 I think we're seeing it already. We're seeing we're seeing 0:39:58.040 --> 0:40:01.600 the level of privates see invasion that I don't think 0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:04.719 people already know has happened. Like I know some of 0:40:04.800 --> 0:40:07.200 us realize that, we talked about that, we rant about it, 0:40:07.239 --> 0:40:10.440 but like, I don't think people realize the level of 0:40:10.480 --> 0:40:14.640 the incursion that has occurred to the point where all 0:40:14.680 --> 0:40:16.840 of this data aggregated to the point they know what 0:40:17.000 --> 0:40:20.279 toilet paper you prefer to buy. Like I'm talking like 0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:24.239 people like Facebook knowing that um or the size of 0:40:24.280 --> 0:40:27.279 the corporate oligarchy that controls the Internet, whether it's the 0:40:27.360 --> 0:40:32.000 small like Alphabet, Core, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft's becoming a smaller 0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:34.680 player weirdly. But when you think about those big names, 0:40:35.600 --> 0:40:39.200 they kind of like control everything and every piece of 0:40:39.320 --> 0:40:43.759 data about you and everything you move, and say that, 0:40:43.840 --> 0:40:45.480 I think, I think, what's the end of that. I 0:40:45.480 --> 0:40:47.160 don't think we got to the end game of that, 0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:50.080 But I don't know how we roll it back. And 0:40:50.120 --> 0:40:53.480 that's the thing. So what's the prediction My prediction is 0:40:54.040 --> 0:40:56.200 it's gonna get worse, and we're gonna get to the 0:40:56.200 --> 0:41:00.759 point where there isn't room to move without that surveillance 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:03.080 tracking you. And like so, for example, you think of 0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:06.120 things like Sci Fi Minority Report, you walk to the 0:41:06.160 --> 0:41:09.120 mall and there's facial idea happening everywhere you go with 0:41:09.560 --> 0:41:13.600 targeted advertising at the mall. Oh, that's coming. I guarantee 0:41:13.840 --> 0:41:17.600 that's coming. And all of that's happening already, and that 0:41:17.680 --> 0:41:21.400 facial recognition stuff that's going on is happening currently now 0:41:21.760 --> 0:41:24.919 we're just not that aware of it happening. The cop 0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:28.000 cars driving down the road and every license plate is 0:41:28.040 --> 0:41:32.759 being measured with the cameras being o CR optical character recognition, 0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:35.719 and that's coming back, and they're tracking every car they're 0:41:35.800 --> 0:41:37.920 driving by on the highway even though there's not a 0:41:37.960 --> 0:41:43.880 GPS unit on your car. The ability to not be 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:50.399 tracked will soon be impossible. How's that? Yeah, I mean allegedly, 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:55.160 when I was younger, they were like certain stupid petty 0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:58.000 crimes I would commit just because like people will not 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:00.160 be able to do this in the future, and I 0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:02.839 have a moral responsibility to steal the light bulbs from 0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:04.600 in front of this bar and throw them in the thread. 0:42:04.600 --> 0:42:06.680 It's like, what, one day that will be a thing 0:42:06.680 --> 0:42:09.080 that people can't do without getting caught. And so like 0:42:09.120 --> 0:42:12.040 I just I had to, you know, there are like 0:42:12.120 --> 0:42:14.640 some bright spots because I I think you're absolutely right, 0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:17.800 there's no on like a broader scale, there's no turning 0:42:17.840 --> 0:42:20.520 back the clock for stuff like facial recognition and how 0:42:20.520 --> 0:42:22.279 funked up it's going to get. There are states like 0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:24.400 where I live in Oregon, where like they have passed 0:42:24.440 --> 0:42:27.040 laws that are just like you, public facial recognition is 0:42:27.080 --> 0:42:30.320 not a thing that is legal in this state. Um. 0:42:30.400 --> 0:42:34.200 And I definitely support more attempts like that because again, 0:42:34.719 --> 0:42:37.160 anything you can do to sty me them, to reduce 0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:40.080 the spread of the grid, to reduce the profitability of 0:42:40.080 --> 0:42:45.520 these things, even though it's again overall a doomed cause. Right. Um, yeah, 0:42:45.560 --> 0:42:47.880 I don't know. I mean I obviously I think that 0:42:47.880 --> 0:42:49.560 that's a good law, But I don't know that laws 0:42:49.719 --> 0:42:53.440 stop corporations when the corporations have more power than law, yes, 0:42:53.480 --> 0:42:57.480 of course. Um. And it's like, I mean, obviously you 0:42:57.520 --> 0:43:00.200 can you can ban it for police to you and 0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:03.120 stuff which does something to the extent that you know 0:43:03.280 --> 0:43:06.080 they follow the law, but none of this is I 0:43:06.120 --> 0:43:09.000 don't know, like I That's one of the things that 0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:13.040 makes me most depressed about the future is the thought that, like, 0:43:15.360 --> 0:43:18.399 the space for this is not like a major issue, 0:43:18.440 --> 0:43:20.000 I guess, but like the space for kids just like 0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:23.840 funk around and do dumb ship when they're nineteen is 0:43:23.880 --> 0:43:25.839 going to get so much smaller. I mean, I would say, 0:43:25.840 --> 0:43:27.520 I mean, I think the thing is like, as a 0:43:27.640 --> 0:43:30.920 natural human being, whether you're doing anything wrong, even if 0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:34.080 you're not doing anything wrong, the nature to feel like 0:43:34.120 --> 0:43:37.000 you have a private space that's to you, your private 0:43:37.000 --> 0:43:39.600 community space. I'm not even talking about wrong or right here, 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:42.600 We're just talking about just that feeling that at this moment, 0:43:43.000 --> 0:43:46.400 this is my space where I'm not being watched. Is 0:43:46.440 --> 0:43:51.160 a natural, healthy need of the human orgasm or organism. 0:43:51.440 --> 0:43:56.879 Um and interesting, uh, but no, it's it's a it's 0:43:56.880 --> 0:43:59.239 a human need. And I think we're gonna find those 0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:03.239 spaces because the smaller and smaller, And I think when 0:44:03.239 --> 0:44:04.840 you said, what's your prediction, I hate to say it, 0:44:04.840 --> 0:44:07.520 but I think the prediction is it will become impossible 0:44:07.560 --> 0:44:10.480 to not be tracked. Now, the bright side of that, 0:44:10.560 --> 0:44:13.000 the bright side of that maybe maybe there's a bright side. 0:44:13.520 --> 0:44:17.080 Maybe at some point when that's the reality, it could 0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:21.480 somehow also affect the people that are powerful and the 0:44:21.520 --> 0:44:24.360 people that are small. And we all realize that humans 0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:28.239 are humans, and therefore the failings that sometimes we have 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:30.800 as all human beings, we just kind of acknowledge it 0:44:30.800 --> 0:44:33.520 and be like, oh, yeah, of course that's just what 0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:36.280 people do. Like maybe we just realize people are people. 0:44:36.600 --> 0:44:38.480 But the idea that there's never going to be a 0:44:38.520 --> 0:44:40.960 space to not get tracked, I don't know. To me, 0:44:41.360 --> 0:44:44.920 I find darkly disturbing. It is disturbing. I do think 0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:47.000 it kind of to pivot off of what you were saying. 0:44:47.000 --> 0:44:49.239 The other aspect of that that is more positive is 0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:53.680 that all of this stuff, all of this surveillance shiit 0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:56.640 um or at least not all, but quite a bit 0:44:56.680 --> 0:45:00.160 of it is you know, in a way, it's can 0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:03.320 knife fight. There's no way that both parties don't get cut, 0:45:03.440 --> 0:45:05.759 and you know, the ones wielding the knife might get 0:45:05.800 --> 0:45:07.799 cut less, but they're still going to get cut. And 0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:10.799 part of what that means in this situation is that 0:45:11.560 --> 0:45:14.200 the prevalence of all of these different ways to surveil 0:45:14.280 --> 0:45:18.799 and track also allows us to track in the same 0:45:18.800 --> 0:45:22.720 way that like police law enforcement watches people through their phones, 0:45:22.760 --> 0:45:24.600 but also a hell of a lot of cops are 0:45:24.600 --> 0:45:29.680 getting filmed doing fucked up ship now right now. Again, 0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:32.640 the balance of the cuts I don't think is going 0:45:32.680 --> 0:45:34.400 to be work out in our favor, but it's not 0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:36.680 going to be nothing on them either. And and and 0:45:36.760 --> 0:45:39.239 you're right, I think there are there are some things 0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:41.879 that we will learn in the future about the people 0:45:41.960 --> 0:45:44.120 in power in the world that would it wouldn't have 0:45:44.160 --> 0:45:46.160 been possible for us to learn in the past or 0:45:46.200 --> 0:45:50.200 may not be possibly even right now. And that and 0:45:50.239 --> 0:45:52.000 if we learned that about people in power, then they 0:45:52.040 --> 0:45:54.000 can't weaponize it as much against the people that aren't 0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:56.120 in power. Right yeah, Yeah, you know one thing that 0:45:56.200 --> 0:45:58.719 I'm because I'm thinking a lot about the fact that 0:45:58.960 --> 0:46:03.080 a bunch of folks the reproductive healthcare industry have pointed 0:46:03.120 --> 0:46:09.120 out that right wingers have started using drones to follow 0:46:09.200 --> 0:46:11.239 people home from like planted parrot hoods and follow them 0:46:11.239 --> 0:46:13.160 to their cards to like build databases of the people 0:46:13.160 --> 0:46:16.960 who are going to places to potentially like do that 0:46:17.040 --> 0:46:21.040 kind of reproductive healthcare that these folks don't think should exist. Um, 0:46:21.400 --> 0:46:23.920 the other side of it though, is that Um, it 0:46:24.120 --> 0:46:28.920 is also possible to surveil them. Um. And it will 0:46:28.960 --> 0:46:32.799 be possible to track the people doing that sort of thing, 0:46:32.840 --> 0:46:34.560 and it will be possible to do that in terms 0:46:34.600 --> 0:46:36.640 of like legal accountability. And it will be possible to 0:46:36.640 --> 0:46:41.120 do that for the people who embrace h questionably legal 0:46:41.239 --> 0:46:46.320 tactics for for frustrating those efforts, um or illegal tactics 0:46:46.360 --> 0:46:50.160 for frustrating those efforts. They have access to the same technology. Um. 0:46:50.520 --> 0:46:53.200 And again it's it's it is a knife that will 0:46:53.280 --> 0:46:57.040 cut everybody, um. And I guess that's better than just 0:46:57.200 --> 0:47:00.320 one person getting cut in this situation. That's that's the 0:47:00.360 --> 0:47:02.319 concern I have, right, I agree with that. Like I said, 0:47:02.360 --> 0:47:05.160 technology goes it's a weapon and as weaponized in all directions, 0:47:05.200 --> 0:47:06.799 depending on how to use it for good or for bad. 0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:08.719 And so this is the same place I come to 0:47:08.800 --> 0:47:10.719 when it comes to the gun control argument. I mean, 0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:16.759 we can do no, no, no, the same the same problem, right, 0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:21.480 because if we allow only one side to have all 0:47:21.560 --> 0:47:23.920 of the control and power and understanding of the technology, 0:47:24.280 --> 0:47:26.640 then we at ourselves are at a huge deficit. We 0:47:26.800 --> 0:47:30.200 cannot defend ourselves or fight back. So when it comes 0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:32.800 to this kind of data and technology. Knowing the basic 0:47:32.880 --> 0:47:35.560 fundamentals of what you can do to protect yourself, understand 0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:38.960 the reality of what the surveillance state or corporation is, 0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:41.319 and then doing your best to not make it easy 0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:43.839 for them is at least one step forward. But if 0:47:43.880 --> 0:47:46.879 we don't own this technology, if we don't own the tech, 0:47:47.440 --> 0:47:50.120 someone else will, and they will use it against us. 0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:52.879 It's as simple as that. And like they're super simple 0:47:52.920 --> 0:47:54.279 stuff Like I was gonna bring us up with like 0:47:54.880 --> 0:47:56.640 you can't see video because it's a podcast, but like 0:47:56.680 --> 0:48:00.160 there's these cool glasses from doctor are called reflectacles, but 0:48:00.239 --> 0:48:03.400 I'm showing you Robert, and it looked like regular sunglasses. 0:48:03.480 --> 0:48:06.880 But when you put them on, they do they reflect 0:48:07.040 --> 0:48:10.920 i R light and actually mess with cameras in a 0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:12.719 way that your turns are diet face into a ball 0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:15.399 of light. So you can wear these, you can wear 0:48:15.400 --> 0:48:17.359 the cold reflectacles. You can wear them and just walk 0:48:17.400 --> 0:48:20.080 around the mall and all the cameras get blown out 0:48:20.160 --> 0:48:23.160 by your by your glasses. Like doing that just because 0:48:23.239 --> 0:48:26.160 you can. It's kind of fun. That's the hot ship. 0:48:26.520 --> 0:48:29.319 That's the ship I was promised that that at least 0:48:29.400 --> 0:48:32.759 does exist. It's not everything I had hoped it would 0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:34.680 be in terms of its ability, But it is like 0:48:34.800 --> 0:48:37.000 that kind of stuff rules and I will be picking 0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:39.520 up a pair of those. UM. Well, we should probably 0:48:39.560 --> 0:48:42.080 close out. I did want to note because I mentioned this, UM, 0:48:42.200 --> 0:48:43.640 I got something a little wrong when I was talking 0:48:43.680 --> 0:48:46.719 about the facial recognition ban. Um. It is in an 0:48:46.920 --> 0:48:50.520 ordinance in the City of Portland itself. Um. It's the 0:48:50.600 --> 0:48:53.000 first city that has done this, and it prohibits the 0:48:53.120 --> 0:48:57.480 use of public facial recognition technology by all private businesses 0:48:57.520 --> 0:49:00.759 in the city. UM. So that is the scope of 0:49:00.840 --> 0:49:02.680 the band that a band that exists in Portland. I 0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:04.600 recommend looking it up. It is the kind of thing 0:49:04.680 --> 0:49:08.399 that I would support everyone pushing forward in their city. UM. 0:49:08.760 --> 0:49:11.759 Because again, the more holes you can make in this thing, 0:49:11.960 --> 0:49:13.960 the better. Yeah. I don't want to put that down. 0:49:14.040 --> 0:49:15.719 That's a good thing. But the challenge of this is, 0:49:15.760 --> 0:49:17.880 just like I mentioned earlier, moving the data out of 0:49:17.920 --> 0:49:20.920 the konas and back the minute photos from Like I 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:23.120 take my iPhone and scan the crowd and then put 0:49:23.160 --> 0:49:25.880 that picture up on the internet. It's not under their 0:49:25.960 --> 0:49:31.160 jurisdiction and all that happens on every face in that yep, 0:49:31.760 --> 0:49:34.160 and that is again, well, we'll do another episode at 0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:35.920 some point about things that you can do to just 0:49:36.040 --> 0:49:39.480 get like there. That's a whole different bag of tricks. Um, 0:49:39.640 --> 0:49:42.040 But this has been really useful and really valuable. Carl. 0:49:42.200 --> 0:49:44.000 Do you want to plug anything before we roll out here? 0:49:44.800 --> 0:49:46.719 Not much, just my normal thing. If you're interested in 0:49:46.760 --> 0:49:49.160 this kind of content, but with a more firearms oriented thing, 0:49:49.200 --> 0:49:51.400 you can find me an en range dot tv. But 0:49:51.520 --> 0:49:54.160 you'll also find some information security stuff there as well. 0:49:54.239 --> 0:49:57.360 I cover that intermittently when it applies to both topics. 0:49:57.440 --> 0:50:00.640 So if you, if you even if you disagree, but 0:50:00.719 --> 0:50:03.360 appreciate my approach to this, come check me out. I 0:50:03.440 --> 0:50:07.319 appreciate it. Awesome, Check out Carl, check out in Range tv, 0:50:08.080 --> 0:50:11.759 and continue to listen to podcasts because the only thing 0:50:12.960 --> 0:50:16.560 that will save us is podcasts. When I didn't the 0:50:16.560 --> 0:50:37.919 same Ryan, but good for business. Oh it could happen here, 0:50:38.320 --> 0:50:41.800 Um is the podcast. We're talking about things falling apart. 0:50:41.960 --> 0:50:45.560 And you know a place where things have fallen apart 0:50:45.640 --> 0:50:48.600 a bit is large chunks of Ukraine due to a 0:50:49.000 --> 0:50:52.920 Russian invasion. Um. And you know we've chatted about this 0:50:52.960 --> 0:50:54.600 a bit on the show. We've had some interviews with 0:50:54.680 --> 0:50:56.520 some folks who are living and fighting over there. And 0:50:56.600 --> 0:51:00.319 today we're going to talk with Jake Hanrahan Uh friend 0:51:00.400 --> 0:51:03.760 of the pod Um who has been over a couple 0:51:03.800 --> 0:51:08.120 of times this year, including since the more expanded conflict began. 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:10.880 It has just released a new documentary on the popular 0:51:10.960 --> 0:51:15.040 front YouTube called Ukraine's Anti Fascist Football Hooligans Fighting the 0:51:15.120 --> 0:51:18.759 Russian Invasion. Jake, how you doing, Thanks for having me back, 0:51:19.080 --> 0:51:22.560 Thanks for being on now, Jake. First off, I guess 0:51:22.600 --> 0:51:27.960 we can get into YouTube censorship stuff, but um, I 0:51:28.000 --> 0:51:30.920 want to chat about like how this story came about 0:51:31.000 --> 0:51:33.720 and when you kind of got in contact with these people, 0:51:33.800 --> 0:51:36.840 because kind of in brief, what you have, you know, 0:51:36.960 --> 0:51:40.440 the clips notes that you hear from like folks who 0:51:40.640 --> 0:51:42.320 have kind of an ax to grind is that like 0:51:42.960 --> 0:51:45.960 you know, Ukraine is all neo Nazis and the government's 0:51:46.000 --> 0:51:47.960 all run by neo Nazis. And the reality is that 0:51:48.080 --> 0:51:51.560 Ukraine obviously has a substantial Nazi problem. And as with 0:51:51.719 --> 0:51:55.000 any country where you have a substantial Nazi problem and 0:51:55.440 --> 0:51:58.239 some degree of freedom in terms of you know, your 0:51:58.280 --> 0:52:01.719 ability to organize for their political purposes, you also have 0:52:01.800 --> 0:52:03.839 a shipload of people who are anti fascists and who 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:07.240 have been fighting those fascists in the street, um, often 0:52:07.320 --> 0:52:10.680 with intense levels of violence. UM. And this is a 0:52:10.760 --> 0:52:13.840 story about a group of those people, um, who have 0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:17.680 now kind of retooled their organization and capacity towards fighting 0:52:17.719 --> 0:52:21.400 the Russian invasion. Yeah, man, exactly that I mean, so 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:23.320 what I wanted to do with Popular Front. You know, 0:52:23.560 --> 0:52:27.360 I've been reporting from Ukraine since sixty and I've been 0:52:27.400 --> 0:52:29.160 there more than ten times on the ground in the 0:52:29.239 --> 0:52:32.279 bombas like way before you know, people were focused on 0:52:32.320 --> 0:52:35.000 the area and before the invasions, so I was very 0:52:35.040 --> 0:52:39.120 aware of. Yeah, there is a significant fascist element to 0:52:39.320 --> 0:52:42.560 the militias out there, but it's the same. Any country 0:52:42.560 --> 0:52:44.480 in Europe that would have a war would have the 0:52:44.560 --> 0:52:46.560 exact same thing. Trust me, if we had it in Britain, 0:52:46.920 --> 0:52:49.520 we would have a similar issue. You know, Eastern Europe. 0:52:49.520 --> 0:52:52.920 Obviously it's a little bit more hardcore, um, but that's 0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:54.800 the way it is. That's Eastern Europe for you. And 0:52:54.880 --> 0:52:56.520 I will mention just at the top as well, I 0:52:56.600 --> 0:52:59.600 would argue that Russia has a much worse neon Nazi problem. 0:52:59.719 --> 0:53:04.799 They Um, more than fifteen people were killed between by 0:53:04.840 --> 0:53:08.680 an actual Neo Nazi serial killer gang in Moscow that 0:53:08.840 --> 0:53:12.080 filmed these attacks. They have a massive neo Nazi party. 0:53:12.800 --> 0:53:15.640 Um you know they they're they're exporting Nazis all across Europe, 0:53:15.680 --> 0:53:18.560 and we know there is several, um, you know, well 0:53:18.640 --> 0:53:21.400 trained neo Nazi battalions fighting for the pro Russian So 0:53:21.440 --> 0:53:23.719 it's neither here nor there. Yes, there's Nazi problems in 0:53:23.719 --> 0:53:25.719 the region, but I didn't want to constantly be on 0:53:25.800 --> 0:53:28.279 this back foot like no, actually, yes there's a Nazi problem, 0:53:28.280 --> 0:53:30.560 but not this, not that. I was like, how can 0:53:30.640 --> 0:53:32.680 we do a documentary that's kind of a positive way 0:53:32.719 --> 0:53:35.320 to be like, well, instead of saying no, not everyone 0:53:35.480 --> 0:53:37.400 is this, or having to film with a unit and 0:53:37.480 --> 0:53:40.080 then being like, actually, these guys are fascists. How can 0:53:40.160 --> 0:53:45.000 I show, you know, like they're uncomfortable. Yeah right, like 0:53:45.160 --> 0:53:49.520 oh a total cough again. Like it was like, how 0:53:49.640 --> 0:53:51.680 how can I kind of put a doc out there 0:53:52.160 --> 0:53:54.920 where it's like, oh, no, actually, like here's a different 0:53:55.000 --> 0:53:57.480 side to it, and you know, this group obviously as 0:53:57.520 --> 0:54:00.880 soon as the war started again. Ukraine is a country 0:54:00.920 --> 0:54:03.360 of forty four million people and it's a very diverse, 0:54:03.680 --> 0:54:08.000 a very smart, very open country in terms of people 0:54:08.000 --> 0:54:09.879 will tell you what they think, and they will argue 0:54:09.880 --> 0:54:12.319 with you and you won't be you know, you can 0:54:12.400 --> 0:54:15.520 have like really serious discussions with people about politics there 0:54:15.560 --> 0:54:19.080 and not fall out. You know. Um, so they're very 0:54:19.200 --> 0:54:21.600 I think, like a very clever people, are really nice people. 0:54:21.640 --> 0:54:24.759 I love Ukraine. I love Ukrainians, So so it's to me, 0:54:24.880 --> 0:54:26.680 it was I knew about the players, Like, yeah, of course, 0:54:26.719 --> 0:54:29.640 there's a massive anti fascist element in Ukraine. Okay, it's 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:33.320 definitely smaller than the fascist element, but already since the 0:54:33.400 --> 0:54:36.879 war started with there's Eco Platform, there's Harky hardcore, there's 0:54:36.920 --> 0:54:40.640 the Resistance Committee Let's hold towards Klan. There's Operations Solidarity, like, 0:54:41.080 --> 0:54:44.480 there's a nest the Macno machine gun repair unit, Like, 0:54:44.560 --> 0:54:49.120 there's so many different anti fascist left wing elements to 0:54:49.200 --> 0:54:50.960 the to the conflict. They just get a lot less 0:54:51.000 --> 0:54:54.680 attention because the fascists have got really good at propaganda 0:54:54.760 --> 0:54:57.080 over the years, and and let's be honest, a lot 0:54:57.160 --> 0:54:59.360 of the fascist groups are fighting in the East and 0:54:59.520 --> 0:55:03.080 right now it's kind of can't back. Yeah, well, it 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:06.040 all hands on deck, right, It's like everyone's like, yeah, okay, 0:55:06.560 --> 0:55:09.520 we don't really care, like we just want to not die. 0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:13.879 Which is understandable. So my point is, Um, I looked 0:55:13.920 --> 0:55:16.239 at this this group, the Resistance Committee, which is this 0:55:16.360 --> 0:55:21.840 kind of anti authoritarian um, you know, coalition of various 0:55:21.920 --> 0:55:25.600 different units. They have Red Deer under their wing, which 0:55:25.719 --> 0:55:27.400 is an anarchist group in Ukraine that I made a 0:55:27.440 --> 0:55:29.759 documentary with a few years ago. So I was looking 0:55:29.760 --> 0:55:31.399 at maybe we'll do a doc n of Deer again 0:55:31.440 --> 0:55:33.400 now that they're fighting on the front. But then I 0:55:33.440 --> 0:55:36.000 see this other group with them put towards Klan and 0:55:36.080 --> 0:55:38.239 it's like what who? Like? Firstly, the name is kind 0:55:38.239 --> 0:55:41.600 of weird in the US. That brings up some unpleasant 0:55:41.640 --> 0:55:44.879 connotation in the US. Yeah, I mean it didn't really 0:55:45.080 --> 0:55:47.840 click to me, But what does what does like hoods? 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:51.040 Hoods mean? So basically, when they would go and do 0:55:51.239 --> 0:55:53.279 you know, when they would go and beat up fascists, 0:55:53.719 --> 0:55:57.400 they'll be like, right, hood's up because you're you're like 0:55:57.480 --> 0:55:59.360 putting your hoodie up so you don't get like spotted, 0:55:59.480 --> 0:56:03.279 right because act the goods up. Um. There's totage of 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:05.400 them beating up Nazis as well, chanting they had a 0:56:05.480 --> 0:56:08.319 chance Dodds, like you know, to put the fucking fear 0:56:08.360 --> 0:56:11.719 into them like a yeah, yeah, and then clan, I 0:56:11.760 --> 0:56:14.480 mean the Ukrainian translation of Plan. It's with the K. 0:56:15.080 --> 0:56:19.800 It's not about the you know, it's just also anglicization 0:56:19.920 --> 0:56:23.720 can lead to some unfortunate things, right right, But also 0:56:23.840 --> 0:56:26.200 you know, they're smart guys, and at first I thought 0:56:26.239 --> 0:56:27.600 this wasn't true, but then I spoke to me it 0:56:27.719 --> 0:56:30.000 was true. They were kind of aware. They're like, yeah, 0:56:30.160 --> 0:56:33.680 h h K who towards clan. They're kind of trolling KKK, 0:56:34.000 --> 0:56:36.320 Like it's like a second meaning because in Ukraine that 0:56:36.400 --> 0:56:38.680 you know, they've got that culture. They're very cheeky. They 0:56:38.760 --> 0:56:40.759 think it's very funny to be like ha ha, you know, 0:56:41.040 --> 0:56:43.120 fuck you. Um, So for them, they were like, yeah, 0:56:43.160 --> 0:56:46.120 we're basically trolling the fascists, like they hear who towards 0:56:46.160 --> 0:56:49.160 clan and they're like surprised, Sorry, we're anti fascists, you 0:56:49.200 --> 0:56:52.200 know what I mean, your head's broken. So it was 0:56:52.280 --> 0:56:54.000 kind of that vibe, and you know, they didn't really 0:56:54.040 --> 0:56:55.840 think about it. And when I asked Anton, you know, 0:56:56.160 --> 0:56:58.080 he's like the kind of the fact old leader. He 0:56:58.239 --> 0:56:59.920 was like he told me this and then he was 0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:02.480 I just kind of wanted to piss people off as well. Um, 0:57:02.680 --> 0:57:05.080 and you you gotta remember these guys started over ten 0:57:05.160 --> 0:57:08.200 years ago, before you know, politics was as online as 0:57:08.280 --> 0:57:10.760 it is, um, and they started off in the hardcore 0:57:10.840 --> 0:57:13.040 punk scene. Now you know, I'm sure you know, Like 0:57:13.120 --> 0:57:15.279 you know, hardcore punk, especially in Europe is like a 0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:20.040 very very exciting, very fun, very happy and like Gnari 0:57:20.280 --> 0:57:22.360 fucking scene. So for them, it was like yeah, with 0:57:22.440 --> 0:57:24.160 a hood towards clan like you know what I mean. 0:57:24.280 --> 0:57:27.280 But but unfortunately some people in America like why they 0:57:27.320 --> 0:57:29.200 go to hood to clan. I don't believe that they're 0:57:29.200 --> 0:57:32.560 empty fast. It's just like mate, there's over seventy videos 0:57:32.600 --> 0:57:36.880 of them beating up Nazis successfully. But it's a whole 0:57:36.960 --> 0:57:39.920 continent that doesn't have the same history as the United States, 0:57:40.040 --> 0:57:42.800 right you can't. I mean yeah, I mean even if 0:57:42.840 --> 0:57:46.080 you said in England like KKK, like now, people would 0:57:46.080 --> 0:57:48.520 be like who oh yeah, like yeah, I've heard of that. 0:57:48.600 --> 0:57:50.640 It's not like we didn't have it here like that. 0:57:50.760 --> 0:57:52.880 You know. Yeah, it's one of those So, I mean 0:57:52.960 --> 0:57:55.480 one of the things that um, that's interesting here that 0:57:55.600 --> 0:57:57.800 you you hit on a new documentaries like these folks, 0:57:58.200 --> 0:58:01.160 the that that these are not just like um, anti 0:58:01.200 --> 0:58:04.840 authoritarian folks, they're they're very much committed to anti racism, 0:58:04.920 --> 0:58:08.240 which is, um, you know, a place like Ukraine where 0:58:09.640 --> 0:58:12.160 the history of their being, you know, folks who are 0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:15.080 not white is not quite as extensive as it is 0:58:15.120 --> 0:58:16.800 in a lot of places. It's really interesting to me 0:58:16.840 --> 0:58:19.840 to have people who are kind of organizing specifically for 0:58:19.920 --> 0:58:23.040 that purpose. Um, and I think, really cool. Yeah, yeah, 0:58:23.120 --> 0:58:24.880 it is really cool. And it's for them. What I 0:58:25.000 --> 0:58:28.240 found very fascinating is it's just natural. So, you know, 0:58:28.480 --> 0:58:30.560 I said, you know, their political I geology. Some of 0:58:30.600 --> 0:58:33.000 them are like, well, some of us are anarchists, some 0:58:33.160 --> 0:58:35.800 of us are kind of anti fascists, but otherwise kind 0:58:35.840 --> 0:58:38.840 of a political and you know, when it's very simple 0:58:38.920 --> 0:58:40.680 for them, it's like why are you I asked, how 0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:42.520 come you guys are anti fascists and they're like, well, 0:58:42.840 --> 0:58:44.760 we just see life differently, like you know, it's like 0:58:45.200 --> 0:58:49.200 obviously like there was no big political theory. It was 0:58:49.240 --> 0:58:51.240 just like, no, it's just basically they were like, it's 0:58:51.280 --> 0:58:53.920 just wrong, you know, like fascism is just wrong. And 0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:57.000 we're tough guys, you know, and we joined we were 0:58:57.080 --> 0:58:59.040 we wanted to be the ones that said no, we're 0:58:59.080 --> 0:59:02.280 not the fascist of the anti fascists, and luckily for them, 0:59:02.360 --> 0:59:05.080 they had a really good friendship group and a very 0:59:05.200 --> 0:59:07.400 solid group who were all very good at combat sports, 0:59:07.960 --> 0:59:10.240 and like in the dock, you know, Anton says, our 0:59:10.360 --> 0:59:13.760 enemies is almost every other Ukrainian football firm in the 0:59:13.800 --> 0:59:17.240 whole of the country. But you will ask even their enemies, 0:59:17.440 --> 0:59:20.040 they will tell you like, yeah, unfortunately, those guys are tough. 0:59:20.200 --> 0:59:24.280 You know, they can fight. You know, they have to be. Yeah, exactly, 0:59:24.360 --> 0:59:25.840 they had to be. They were like we had to 0:59:25.920 --> 0:59:28.760 be you know. So I mean, I I do my research. 0:59:28.840 --> 0:59:32.640 I found um kind of a fascist football ultras for 0:59:32.840 --> 0:59:37.120 Hum in Eastern Europe that banned any mention of Houdswood's Klan, 0:59:37.680 --> 0:59:39.480 and it kind of boiled down to the fact they 0:59:39.520 --> 0:59:42.040 were just so embarrassed that so many of the fascist 0:59:42.080 --> 0:59:45.640 groups were getting beaten up like by by anti fascists 0:59:45.640 --> 0:59:47.760 and often outnumbered. You know. It even got to a 0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:50.760 point where Hudsward's Clan weren't allowed to they wouldn't even 0:59:50.800 --> 0:59:53.640 talk to them to do like arranged fights anymore in 0:59:53.680 --> 0:59:56.560 the field. So instead of quitting, Hudson's Clan said, Okay, 0:59:56.640 --> 0:59:58.200 then when we see you, we'll just beat you up 0:59:58.240 --> 0:59:59.840 in the subway, we'll beat you up in the street, 1:00:00.480 --> 1:00:02.280 you know, And a lot of people might say, oh, 1:00:02.320 --> 1:00:04.480 well this is violent. So for me, the football Luganism 1:00:04.600 --> 1:00:07.200 side of it, I don't see an issue with it personally. 1:00:07.280 --> 1:00:10.240 I mean, they're not attacking anyone innocent, they're not attacking 1:00:10.320 --> 1:00:12.600 by standards. It was all very contained. It was all 1:00:12.760 --> 1:00:15.240 very you know, it was that was their thing, you know, 1:00:15.440 --> 1:00:17.600 so that that to me is whatever. And when you're 1:00:17.640 --> 1:00:20.680 talking about neo Nazi groups that were i mean in Ukraine, 1:00:20.720 --> 1:00:25.240 that they've stabbed up the Roma community, they're destroying LGBT events, 1:00:25.840 --> 1:00:27.800 and you know, the clan were just like, no, we're 1:00:27.800 --> 1:00:29.560 not about that, we don't we don't think you should 1:00:29.600 --> 1:00:31.800 do that. And so they formed and for ten years 1:00:31.840 --> 1:00:35.040 they were fighting. But now they have called a truce 1:00:35.280 --> 1:00:37.640 because they're like, you know, Anton explains in the dock. 1:00:37.720 --> 1:00:41.280 He says, look, there's a bigger problem now because Ukraine 1:00:41.320 --> 1:00:44.000 is actually not a Nazi jump as the Kremlin says. 1:00:44.240 --> 1:00:46.640 It's actually quite easy to kind of you know, it's 1:00:46.640 --> 1:00:49.560 a very small subset in the in the relative size 1:00:49.600 --> 1:00:52.240 of the actual military, so you know, it's actually for them. 1:00:52.280 --> 1:00:53.880 They said, well, yeah, it makes sense. We put all 1:00:53.920 --> 1:00:57.480 our other political differences aside, because this is way bigger. 1:00:57.520 --> 1:00:59.720 You're talking about one of the most powerful militaries on 1:00:59.800 --> 1:01:03.120 earth invading our country and killing our people. I mean, 1:01:03.160 --> 1:01:06.120 we've seen the massacres in Boucher and up in Um. 1:01:06.200 --> 1:01:09.880 You know, people killed civilians, hands behind their back, executed 1:01:09.880 --> 1:01:12.480 in the street. M thirty of the people killed in 1:01:12.520 --> 1:01:15.880 Butcher with children, like you know, this is just insane. 1:01:15.960 --> 1:01:17.840 So for them they were like, yeah, we we can, 1:01:18.200 --> 1:01:20.520 we can call the truth. You know, we don't like them, 1:01:20.800 --> 1:01:22.440 but right now we're not going to beat each other 1:01:22.600 --> 1:01:24.960 up on the front line. Um. But I think it 1:01:25.040 --> 1:01:28.160 really kind of shows the testament of how serious too 1:01:28.200 --> 1:01:31.040 towards Clara about the anti fascism that even whilst in 1:01:31.120 --> 1:01:35.840 the truth, most of them actually still joined the resistance Committee, 1:01:35.840 --> 1:01:39.160 the anti authoritarian groups, so they're not just directly next 1:01:39.240 --> 1:01:42.520 to fascist battalions. But again, you know, a lot is 1:01:42.600 --> 1:01:44.360 changing out there on the front now. I think, yeah, 1:01:44.400 --> 1:01:45.680 I don't know. Anton said to me, he was like, 1:01:45.680 --> 1:01:47.240 I'll be honest with you, Like we didn't put this 1:01:47.280 --> 1:01:48.600 in a DoPT, he said, I'll be honest. I think 1:01:48.640 --> 1:01:51.240 after this war, a lot of these far right guys 1:01:51.360 --> 1:01:55.520 might change their minds because now we see what totalitarianism 1:01:55.640 --> 1:01:58.080 brings death, you know what I mean, whether that whether 1:01:58.160 --> 1:02:00.760 however that's which we're thinking or not, I'm sure, but 1:02:00.960 --> 1:02:03.560 you know what I'm saying because obviously, like the I mean, 1:02:03.600 --> 1:02:06.520 I I would obviously I would hope that that's that's 1:02:06.560 --> 1:02:08.880 what happens, but I tend to do it. But yeah, 1:02:09.000 --> 1:02:11.040 the thing that scares me, of course, is there's just 1:02:11.240 --> 1:02:13.720 as at least as much a chance that you know, 1:02:13.760 --> 1:02:17.080 they get more powerful. Um, which is again part of 1:02:17.160 --> 1:02:19.880 why it's important for folks like Hudson's plan to be 1:02:20.080 --> 1:02:24.520 organizing and getting weapons and being prepared because like, yes, 1:02:25.200 --> 1:02:28.000 that if that conflict comes after the war, you know, 1:02:28.320 --> 1:02:31.439 you don't want the fascist militias to be the best 1:02:32.360 --> 1:02:35.880 armed and most organized. Yeah, and this is the issue, 1:02:35.880 --> 1:02:38.080 you know. But I think for them it's like, okay, 1:02:38.160 --> 1:02:39.880 we'll deal with that when it comes, you know. Like 1:02:40.280 --> 1:02:43.560 I think they're very aware that this war is going nowhere, 1:02:43.760 --> 1:02:46.400 you know, and you know they say, and our dog, oh, 1:02:46.480 --> 1:02:48.480 we just want to go and kill Russian pigs. I mean, 1:02:48.640 --> 1:02:51.120 you know what they mean is I mean some people 1:02:51.160 --> 1:02:52.800 are like, ooh, that's really bad. I was like mate, 1:02:52.960 --> 1:02:56.320 you're talking about that. They were It's a war, right, 1:02:56.760 --> 1:03:00.080 they were. They were guarding the areas where the massacres happened. Know, 1:03:00.520 --> 1:03:03.360 Hood towards Klan got shelled trying to get civilians out 1:03:03.400 --> 1:03:08.360 of Boradanka when Russians were shelling. You're talking women and children. Yeah, 1:03:08.360 --> 1:03:11.720 I'm surprised they said that mildly, you know, like yeah, 1:03:11.800 --> 1:03:13.320 like you know, it's a woman, it is what it is. 1:03:13.600 --> 1:03:17.680 And also their football hooligans they're wild people, you know, Yeah, 1:03:17.760 --> 1:03:20.680 it's it's um. I mean that is kind of interesting though, 1:03:20.720 --> 1:03:24.720 I'm curious, Um, do you have kind of, ah an 1:03:24.760 --> 1:03:27.480 assessment of what kind of numbers they're looking at, like 1:03:27.560 --> 1:03:29.800 how many folks they've actually got in the field on 1:03:29.840 --> 1:03:33.680 a regular basis. Yeah, so the resistance Committee is I 1:03:33.720 --> 1:03:37.080 don't know, like fifty hundred right now. Good towards Klan 1:03:37.200 --> 1:03:40.080 they have like maybe twenty to thirty year there guys 1:03:40.240 --> 1:03:42.760 in that group. But then they also have other people, 1:03:43.240 --> 1:03:46.440 um that join different units in the East. So they 1:03:46.480 --> 1:03:48.600 were like already military, so they didn't have to go 1:03:48.800 --> 1:03:50.920 you know, former militia, they just joined the military. So 1:03:51.000 --> 1:03:55.760 there's like quite a strong hood towards Clan Um mortar group. UM, 1:03:55.920 --> 1:03:57.720 and I know that. So. So one of the footage 1:03:57.760 --> 1:04:00.920 we included in our documentary where um, a Russian tank 1:04:01.000 --> 1:04:03.040 gets blown up like very close core as he gets 1:04:03.080 --> 1:04:05.000 hit with the javelin, he's like a hundred feet away. 1:04:05.320 --> 1:04:07.040 That was a hood Toude clan attack. That was one 1:04:07.040 --> 1:04:09.560 of their guys doing it, you know. So yeah, so 1:04:09.720 --> 1:04:12.960 that there's they're all over the place. Um. Unfortunately, due 1:04:13.000 --> 1:04:15.920 to various bureaucracy within the Territorial Defense, I do think 1:04:16.000 --> 1:04:19.440 that the Resistance Committee might have to split up to 1:04:19.560 --> 1:04:21.200 actually get to the front, you know what I mean, 1:04:21.280 --> 1:04:23.240 Like they're they're probably gonna have to join other units 1:04:23.440 --> 1:04:26.439 because there's some issues that the you know, various people 1:04:27.040 --> 1:04:28.720 they're just not sending them out there. It's not because 1:04:28.720 --> 1:04:30.560 they're anti fascist or anything. It's nothing to do that. 1:04:30.680 --> 1:04:33.520 It's it's because you know, it's corruption, man. There, there's 1:04:33.560 --> 1:04:36.600 there's some corruption emerging. Some some commanders just want to 1:04:36.640 --> 1:04:38.640 sit sit around and not actually have to go to 1:04:38.720 --> 1:04:42.160 the front. Um. Whereas you know, the fighters themselves are 1:04:42.200 --> 1:04:44.480 desperate because they're like, you know, our people are dying. 1:04:44.600 --> 1:04:46.600 We want to avenge them and we want to stop it. 1:04:46.920 --> 1:04:49.720 So you know, right, nowhoods Planner essentially on their way. 1:04:49.960 --> 1:04:51.720 They're doing a lot more training right now. They've been 1:04:51.720 --> 1:04:53.560 given the go ahead. Yeah, they're going to the east. 1:04:54.000 --> 1:04:55.800 Um and as far as I know, they're they're kind 1:04:55.840 --> 1:04:58.720 of on route obviously stopping off doing training. I think 1:04:58.760 --> 1:05:00.840 they have an upeat. They're going to be an APG unit, 1:05:00.920 --> 1:05:02.720 so they'll be a very close cause, you know what 1:05:02.760 --> 1:05:04.800 I'm saying. So it's going to be Narlie for them. 1:05:05.160 --> 1:05:07.000 These guys, as you stayed at all, kind of started 1:05:07.000 --> 1:05:08.920 out as a friend group, right, Like they weren't. This 1:05:09.040 --> 1:05:13.200 isn't a political party, These aren't like these guys didn't 1:05:13.200 --> 1:05:15.640 start as ideological comrads. They were like buddies who are 1:05:15.720 --> 1:05:18.120 into the same team and into the same kind of 1:05:18.160 --> 1:05:21.200 combat sports. And now they're you know, they're going to 1:05:21.320 --> 1:05:23.040 be some of them are gonna be dying in front 1:05:23.040 --> 1:05:27.240 of the others, which is like a difficulty I think. Um, 1:05:27.640 --> 1:05:30.680 I'm interested in kind of how how are they actually 1:05:30.880 --> 1:05:33.440 organizing sort of in the field or is it just 1:05:33.680 --> 1:05:36.040 as I've heard of a number of like militia units 1:05:36.120 --> 1:05:38.160 kind of along the lines of the Ukrainian military, or 1:05:38.200 --> 1:05:41.680 have they have they kind of adopted different organizational styles 1:05:41.760 --> 1:05:44.040 in their their hoods, hoods units as befits sort of 1:05:44.800 --> 1:05:48.960 their unique kind of origins. Yeah, that's a good question. Well, 1:05:49.000 --> 1:05:52.520 I mean it's kind of trickly because essentially there, you know, 1:05:52.680 --> 1:05:54.640 I guess, I guess they phoned as a militia. You know, 1:05:54.720 --> 1:05:57.200 as soon as they stir they got guns. But then 1:05:57.360 --> 1:05:59.560 you know, Anton was like, we have everything from the 1:05:59.600 --> 1:06:02.560 anti ashes networks, everything we need apart from the weapons. 1:06:02.880 --> 1:06:05.120 So they had to sign up as a part of 1:06:05.800 --> 1:06:08.800 the territorial defense the weapons. So they're under the territorial 1:06:08.840 --> 1:06:11.400 defense as are you know, a hundreds of different people 1:06:11.480 --> 1:06:14.800 that did the same thing. Um. So luckily forward towards clan, 1:06:14.880 --> 1:06:17.400 I think because they're so close friends. I mean you 1:06:17.440 --> 1:06:19.120 can see it in the Dock, you know. I even 1:06:19.320 --> 1:06:21.360 the subtitle of our Dock is like, you know, this 1:06:21.480 --> 1:06:25.080 is a film about friendship, m violence and resistance, because 1:06:25.120 --> 1:06:27.160 that's essentially what it is, you know. So they're very 1:06:27.200 --> 1:06:30.120 close friends. So commanders have recognized that that, Yeah, this 1:06:30.280 --> 1:06:32.520 is a group that is disciplined as well. A lot 1:06:32.560 --> 1:06:35.240 of them are straight edge, which is actually a discipline 1:06:35.280 --> 1:06:37.600 in itself, you know what I mean. So they're very 1:06:37.640 --> 1:06:40.120 well disciplined. They're very good. You know, the training is 1:06:40.240 --> 1:06:42.320 very good. They know what they're doing. But they have 1:06:42.480 --> 1:06:46.360 like a commander that is from the Territorial Defense if 1:06:46.400 --> 1:06:48.240 you like. It's not he's not hood towards clan. He's 1:06:48.440 --> 1:06:51.640 never been assigned a commander sort of thing. Um, So 1:06:52.080 --> 1:06:54.600 they're being taught just the same kind of tactics as 1:06:54.600 --> 1:06:57.400 anybody else. As they're an RPG unit. I think, you know, 1:06:57.520 --> 1:06:59.400 there will be a lot of close quarters stuff, but 1:06:59.440 --> 1:07:02.480 they're just doing a lot of a lot of arms training. 1:07:02.880 --> 1:07:05.240 There's you know, Constantine and the dark. One of them 1:07:05.360 --> 1:07:07.240 is like, I just want to get better faster. They're 1:07:07.280 --> 1:07:10.720 just they're very they're very focused on being like not 1:07:10.800 --> 1:07:12.640 an elite unit, but they want to get it perfect. 1:07:12.640 --> 1:07:14.360 They're not just like, yeah, let's go and kill. They're like, 1:07:14.440 --> 1:07:16.040 now we have to be good, you know what I mean. 1:07:16.120 --> 1:07:17.840 We have to go in there and have the same 1:07:17.920 --> 1:07:20.920 discipline and organization as we had in the streets when 1:07:20.960 --> 1:07:23.120 we were fighting. There was a reason that they were 1:07:23.200 --> 1:07:25.800 renowned as being a good street fight in football, looking 1:07:25.880 --> 1:07:30.520 firm despite being completely outnumbered. It's because they had good discipline. Um, 1:07:30.840 --> 1:07:33.600 they're tough, they trained and also because they're good friends. 1:07:33.720 --> 1:07:35.800 They will have each other's back. It's it's not hobby 1:07:35.840 --> 1:07:38.920 for them as a lifestyle, you know. Um, yeah, it's 1:07:38.920 --> 1:07:40.600 just so much went into it, you know who plan 1:07:40.680 --> 1:07:44.640 started off the back of um anti fascist punk punk 1:07:44.680 --> 1:07:48.200 hardcore in Ukraine, and then that itself was a scene, 1:07:48.240 --> 1:07:50.320 and then the football organism and then yeah, and now 1:07:50.440 --> 1:07:52.680 it's it's crazy, really, it's it's honestly one of the 1:07:52.760 --> 1:07:56.640 most fascinating stories I've covered. Now they're fucking frontline unit, 1:07:56.680 --> 1:07:58.720 you know. It's it's sad and I hope to guard 1:07:58.840 --> 1:08:01.120 nothing happens to any of them. Probably the nicest guys 1:08:01.160 --> 1:08:04.760 are filmed with you know. Um and yeah, it's it's, it's, 1:08:04.880 --> 1:08:06.920 it's it's a good question on it. It's very tricky 1:08:07.000 --> 1:08:08.840 to know how it's going to happen for them once 1:08:08.920 --> 1:08:11.280 they're on the front. I mean, Anton, the main guy, 1:08:11.360 --> 1:08:15.040 he has served before, joined the militia to fight in 1:08:15.080 --> 1:08:17.439 the dom Bus. So they do have some experience, you know, 1:08:18.200 --> 1:08:20.880 and it does seem like um kind of their natural 1:08:21.200 --> 1:08:24.479 the skills that they've been developing, because there's there's broadly 1:08:24.520 --> 1:08:27.560 speaking from my understanding, kind of two main types of 1:08:27.960 --> 1:08:31.960 combat going on in Ukraine. There's the what you're seeing 1:08:32.000 --> 1:08:34.560 a lot in you know, the Don Boss, which is 1:08:35.040 --> 1:08:38.240 this kind of like meat grinder like frontline ship, and 1:08:38.280 --> 1:08:40.120 then there's sort of the seek and destroy kind of 1:08:40.160 --> 1:08:42.960 stuff where you've got people sort of hunting convoys and 1:08:43.120 --> 1:08:45.840 and doing ambushes. And it does strike me like these 1:08:45.880 --> 1:08:48.680 guys talents would lend themselves more to the ambushes then. 1:08:48.720 --> 1:08:51.200 I mean, there's not really any talent that helps you 1:08:51.320 --> 1:08:54.240 in the in the sitting in a trench meat grinder 1:08:54.320 --> 1:08:56.920 kind of ship. But obviously you don't have that choice 1:08:57.000 --> 1:09:02.519 when you're when you're serving under you know, the national military. Yeah, yeah, 1:09:02.600 --> 1:09:04.760 it's I think you're right, like they would be much 1:09:04.960 --> 1:09:09.920 better um placed as like you know, I guess like 1:09:10.000 --> 1:09:13.080 a kind of shooting scoot kind of unit exactly. Yeah, 1:09:13.200 --> 1:09:14.800 And I think they will be because you know, the 1:09:14.920 --> 1:09:17.880 train with RPG UM some of their fighters already have 1:09:18.000 --> 1:09:22.479 javelins on the front um and and laws. So yeah, 1:09:22.520 --> 1:09:24.280 I think that's where it would be if they just 1:09:24.360 --> 1:09:26.120 put them in some kind of meat grind of position, 1:09:26.200 --> 1:09:28.479 which very much could happen, you know. I mean, it's 1:09:28.520 --> 1:09:31.160 bad for anybody, let's be realistic. It's getting very bad 1:09:31.200 --> 1:09:35.479 in the don Bass right tonight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, 1:09:35.760 --> 1:09:37.479 I mean, and that's one of the there's been posts 1:09:37.520 --> 1:09:41.080 and stuff from people talking about like, um, you know, 1:09:41.320 --> 1:09:43.880 the a lot of the funk ups that are happening 1:09:44.160 --> 1:09:46.800 because you know, Ukraine started this war with everyone being 1:09:46.880 --> 1:09:50.960 kind of overwhelmed by the competence of their military effort, 1:09:51.000 --> 1:09:52.920 and now that things in in the Don Boss have 1:09:53.040 --> 1:09:56.519 turned into this kind of ugly slug Um, there's been 1:09:56.640 --> 1:09:59.439 some you know, oh the you know units getting hit 1:09:59.479 --> 1:10:01.240 by their own our hillary fire, the kind of messy 1:10:01.320 --> 1:10:04.080 stuff that happens when you have a fight like this, 1:10:04.360 --> 1:10:06.960 right like it is it is unavoidable, um, when you 1:10:07.080 --> 1:10:10.719 have like a situation like has developed in the Dan Boss. 1:10:10.800 --> 1:10:15.400 But that doesn't make it any less unpleasant to endure 1:10:15.479 --> 1:10:18.240 as an actual soldier. Like it's just it's one of 1:10:18.280 --> 1:10:21.280 those I mean, there's only so much that like competence 1:10:21.320 --> 1:10:23.759 and training can do if you wind up getting squeezed 1:10:23.760 --> 1:10:26.960 into that kind of position. Yeah, And and there's this 1:10:27.160 --> 1:10:30.360 is why a lot of people are even Ukrainian has 1:10:30.360 --> 1:10:33.760 actually had a conversation with Ukrainian friend yesterday that was saying, like, 1:10:34.040 --> 1:10:36.200 you know, the situation is so bad in the East. 1:10:36.960 --> 1:10:40.280 We really need to be honest about this because you know, 1:10:40.360 --> 1:10:42.320 if people think it's going better than it is, Okay, 1:10:42.360 --> 1:10:43.960 it's good for morale, but it's not good for the 1:10:44.000 --> 1:10:45.960 guys on the ground, like they're not going to get 1:10:46.000 --> 1:10:48.800 what they need. And the reality is that it's getting 1:10:48.840 --> 1:10:51.680 really bad and it's not anything to do with incompetence 1:10:51.760 --> 1:10:54.360 from the fighters. It's just the war. The level is 1:10:54.439 --> 1:10:57.080 being so hot, and you know, Russia has learned from 1:10:57.120 --> 1:11:00.160 its mistakes unfortunately from the start where they can be 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:02.519 funked up. But now you know, things are getting a 1:11:02.560 --> 1:11:06.360 little bit Harry, Um, Ukrainians are doing like an incredible effort. 1:11:06.880 --> 1:11:10.600 But again it's like, yeah, you're talking about decades and 1:11:10.760 --> 1:11:15.759 decades of armor and you know, um weapons that Russia 1:11:15.840 --> 1:11:17.920 has and it's all very well, us being like, oh 1:11:17.960 --> 1:11:21.200 it's their armor is blah blah. I doubt it, you know, 1:11:21.280 --> 1:11:23.920 I very much doubt that. Um, it doesn't look like that, 1:11:24.120 --> 1:11:26.160 certainly from when people I'm talking to in the East. 1:11:26.200 --> 1:11:30.040 You know, so I think again, when when you know 1:11:30.240 --> 1:11:32.599 Ukrainians are like, well we do need more weapons, it's 1:11:32.600 --> 1:11:34.519 because they need more weapons, you know what I mean, 1:11:34.600 --> 1:11:36.920 they really do. Well, this is like one of the 1:11:38.000 --> 1:11:40.759 This is uh one of the things that's that's difficult 1:11:40.760 --> 1:11:43.599 to I think get across to people, um, because there 1:11:43.720 --> 1:11:46.280 is such a you know that we are dealing with 1:11:46.400 --> 1:11:50.240 the legacy of decades of shipping weapons places, um, and 1:11:50.400 --> 1:11:52.519 not having that helped the conflict in a lot of 1:11:52.800 --> 1:11:55.759 in a lot of ways, um, in decades of stories 1:11:55.840 --> 1:11:57.519 like you know, all the weapons that got sent to 1:11:57.600 --> 1:11:59.800 the Iraqi government and then wound up in isis is 1:12:00.040 --> 1:12:02.920 Marie and ship um, which creates kind of an easy 1:12:03.040 --> 1:12:05.439 narrative for folks who are like, well, you know, you're 1:12:05.479 --> 1:12:07.800 just trying to prolong the conflict in making it worse 1:12:07.880 --> 1:12:10.880 by shipping and weapons. But the reality is one side 1:12:10.920 --> 1:12:14.160 of this war has a substantial percentage of all of 1:12:14.240 --> 1:12:17.439 the artillery that exists on the planet. Yeah, and the 1:12:17.520 --> 1:12:21.160 other side does not. Yeah. And I do understand the 1:12:21.280 --> 1:12:24.439 argument though, Like I totally get it, but it's it's 1:12:25.080 --> 1:12:27.080 I lived through the early two thousand's as well, I 1:12:27.200 --> 1:12:30.640 understand it. It's like war isn't a template. It's not 1:12:30.720 --> 1:12:33.719 like does this happened there, this will happened there or whatever, 1:12:33.800 --> 1:12:35.800 And it's like you have to weigh up no matter 1:12:35.920 --> 1:12:37.960 what bad is going to come from this, Do you 1:12:38.040 --> 1:12:41.240 want the bad to be Okay, there's a problem with 1:12:41.600 --> 1:12:44.720 arms in Eastern Ukraine, which the Eastern Europe, which there 1:12:44.720 --> 1:12:47.160 already is, and it gets worse. Or do you want 1:12:47.479 --> 1:12:50.280 the bad problem to be Russia has taken over the 1:12:50.320 --> 1:12:54.000 whole country, massacred everybody and is unlike undoubtly going to 1:12:54.080 --> 1:12:57.040 try and move into other countries. Do you want aids 1:12:57.400 --> 1:12:59.600 or do you want cancer? I don't know, you know 1:12:59.680 --> 1:13:01.920 what I mean? Indeed, do you want the Do you 1:13:02.000 --> 1:13:04.599 want the lesson from this to be that if you're 1:13:04.640 --> 1:13:07.360 just willing to burn a couple of hundred thousand human 1:13:07.439 --> 1:13:11.639 lives as a state like Russia or any other state, 1:13:11.800 --> 1:13:15.920 you can easily gain access to, you know, a pile 1:13:16.000 --> 1:13:18.519 of wealth right in the shape of a country. Um, 1:13:18.840 --> 1:13:21.880 which isn't a positive. It's not like a good lesson 1:13:22.040 --> 1:13:23.960 for anyone to take out of this. But like if 1:13:24.600 --> 1:13:28.639 if that's the lesson, right, yeah, yeah, no, that's the reality. 1:13:28.760 --> 1:13:31.479 Like it's all very nice having a fifty tweet Twitter 1:13:31.560 --> 1:13:34.000 threat about why this that and referred should or shouldn't happen, 1:13:34.720 --> 1:13:37.240 But that's just completely removed from real life. I mean, 1:13:37.360 --> 1:13:39.160 a real life is it's going to be very bad, 1:13:39.320 --> 1:13:41.920 very nasty, no matter what happens, and you just have 1:13:42.040 --> 1:13:44.320 to weigh. Oh I don't like natso oh I don't 1:13:44.360 --> 1:13:46.599 like this. Yeah, I mean either, but I care about 1:13:46.640 --> 1:13:49.000 people that die for no reason, you know, Like I 1:13:49.080 --> 1:13:51.720 think that's the real issue. Um. I think people need 1:13:51.800 --> 1:13:53.840 to stand with the people, you know, and if that 1:13:54.000 --> 1:13:57.640 means okay, use the tools that you have, Okay, Like, 1:13:57.920 --> 1:13:59.519 oh I don't like nats. We yeah, but they're going 1:13:59.560 --> 1:14:01.640 to give them. What do you think that Ukrainians like 1:14:01.800 --> 1:14:04.800 having Russian firearms? Probably not. But they also don't give 1:14:04.800 --> 1:14:07.280 a ship because they shoot. It's it's that simple, you know, 1:14:07.760 --> 1:14:10.960 kind of coming back to the subject of your documentary. Um, 1:14:11.360 --> 1:14:13.400 if weapons are going to be going over there, and 1:14:13.520 --> 1:14:16.439 by god they are, um I I would hope that 1:14:16.680 --> 1:14:18.680 as many of them as possible are going into the 1:14:18.760 --> 1:14:23.360 hands of people like the Hoods Hood's client, right, yeah, 1:14:24.040 --> 1:14:28.080 um yeah, I mean that is that is a yeah, 1:14:28.200 --> 1:14:31.200 a lot. There's definitely this isn't from them telling me, 1:14:31.280 --> 1:14:34.240 but it's just from research I've done. There's definitely a 1:14:34.320 --> 1:14:37.720 discrepancy in terms of which groups get what weapons. And 1:14:38.360 --> 1:14:40.960 it's not based on ideology, but it's definitely based on 1:14:41.560 --> 1:14:44.000 some serious paroxy that needs to be sorted out. You know. 1:14:44.200 --> 1:14:46.720 I have some some Western volunteers that I know that 1:14:46.800 --> 1:14:49.240 are on the front right now, and they're saying, like, 1:14:49.439 --> 1:14:51.680 for some reason, you know, one unit that is not 1:14:51.800 --> 1:14:55.960 an RPG unit, for example, will have more rockets than 1:14:56.040 --> 1:14:58.560 the RPG unit, you know, And it's like, what like, 1:14:58.800 --> 1:15:00.360 And that's not because they've used the more. It's it's 1:15:00.439 --> 1:15:03.799 it's supply lines are again. It's it's not even corruption. 1:15:03.840 --> 1:15:05.920 Often it's just supply lines are wrecked or whatever. But 1:15:06.320 --> 1:15:07.880 it has to be addressed as to be looked at. 1:15:07.880 --> 1:15:09.880 I mean, I'm no tactician. I don't know anything about 1:15:09.920 --> 1:15:12.160 that side of things. I'm just basing on what you know, 1:15:12.240 --> 1:15:14.000 people are telling me, because you know, I like to 1:15:14.040 --> 1:15:16.840 talk to them and hear what's happening. Yeah. Um, I 1:15:16.880 --> 1:15:19.680 think we should move into you know, when I when 1:15:19.720 --> 1:15:23.080 I pull up your documentary on YouTube, which is again 1:15:23.200 --> 1:15:26.599 for folks at home, titled Ukraine's anti fascist football Hooligans 1:15:26.680 --> 1:15:29.120 Fighting the Russian Invasion, the first thing that I see 1:15:29.240 --> 1:15:36.280 is this video maybe inappropriate for some users. Um yeah's yeah, well, 1:15:36.320 --> 1:15:38.880 and it's We've talked a lot on our various shows 1:15:38.920 --> 1:15:41.519 on this network about all of the fascist propaganda that 1:15:41.600 --> 1:15:43.720 you can find and not even find on YouTube that 1:15:43.760 --> 1:15:45.559 will be like spoon fed. Do you if you wind 1:15:45.640 --> 1:15:49.439 up like watching a video game review or something. Um, yeah, 1:15:49.640 --> 1:15:51.679 this is something that you've been dealing with, unpopular front. 1:15:51.720 --> 1:15:53.640 Somebody seems to have like an ax to grind with 1:15:53.760 --> 1:15:56.000 you guys. I don't know. Maybe it's just the algorithm, 1:15:56.160 --> 1:15:59.800 but I'll be honest, I I felt like it was 1:16:00.000 --> 1:16:03.120 to the algorithm until this recent one. Right. So so yeah, 1:16:03.160 --> 1:16:04.640 like you said, if people want to fight, I mean 1:16:04.680 --> 1:16:06.880 the dogs called front Line who looking? But yeah, the 1:16:07.360 --> 1:16:10.479 for s c O. Um, yeah, it's it's Ukraine's anti 1:16:10.520 --> 1:16:15.320 fascists fighting Russian invasion. Um. But yeah, the second it 1:16:15.439 --> 1:16:17.680 was uploaded it got age restricted. Now that to me 1:16:17.880 --> 1:16:19.880 is very odd. I don't get why there's no gore 1:16:19.960 --> 1:16:22.880 in it. Um. Okay, yeah, there's violence, but there's a 1:16:22.920 --> 1:16:26.120 guideline where you can show violence in if it's relative 1:16:26.160 --> 1:16:28.800 to report in, which obviously it is because it's an 1:16:28.840 --> 1:16:31.880 anti fascist football looking firm fighting Russia. So of course 1:16:31.920 --> 1:16:33.920 we're going to show what that looks like. But there's 1:16:33.960 --> 1:16:38.120 there's no there's no gore. Um, there's no there's there's 1:16:38.200 --> 1:16:41.800 just it's just lads hanging out talking about their lives 1:16:41.880 --> 1:16:44.040 now they've been tipped upside down and how they really 1:16:44.160 --> 1:16:46.840 dislike the far right. Now. To give you an idea 1:16:46.840 --> 1:16:49.240 of how messed up this is, UM, there's a real, 1:16:49.439 --> 1:16:53.400 a real parasite YouTuber. It's called Danny Mullen and he 1:16:53.600 --> 1:16:56.720 has a video on YouTube where him and his his 1:16:56.880 --> 1:17:00.559 friend both for them scoundrels go to the con border 1:17:00.840 --> 1:17:05.679 and the whole video is trying to get with quote 1:17:05.800 --> 1:17:09.280 like hot Ukrainian refugees. Now, it's the most disgusting thing 1:17:09.320 --> 1:17:11.439 you've ever seen. They're praying on young girls, some of 1:17:11.520 --> 1:17:15.040 them are very clearly underage. UM. And that is monetized. 1:17:15.160 --> 1:17:18.640 That is monetized, and it is even on the algorithm. 1:17:18.720 --> 1:17:21.360 I found it because I was watching Ukraine war stuff 1:17:21.400 --> 1:17:24.640 and it was put onto my recommended. Now, these are 1:17:24.640 --> 1:17:27.280 the biggest parasites you've ever seen in your life. UM. 1:17:27.360 --> 1:17:29.920 And they have hundreds and hundreds of thousands of subscribers 1:17:29.960 --> 1:17:33.320 and they're making money from content like that that is 1:17:33.439 --> 1:17:36.320 not age restricted. There is no censorship thing, There is 1:17:36.400 --> 1:17:39.480 no message saying this might be offensive. But a documentary 1:17:39.479 --> 1:17:44.120 which is one journalistic covering anti fascists fighting one of 1:17:44.160 --> 1:17:47.920 the worst invasions we've seen in Europe is suddenly deemed 1:17:48.640 --> 1:17:51.320 inappropriate and his age restricted on YouTube. Tell me what's 1:17:51.320 --> 1:17:53.560 going on there that doesn't seem right to me. So 1:17:53.760 --> 1:17:55.840 basically you tube by doing that as saying we're actually 1:17:55.920 --> 1:17:59.920 happy to make money off of people that exploit under 1:18:00.080 --> 1:18:03.439 rage Ukrainian refugees, but we're not happy for people showing 1:18:03.439 --> 1:18:05.600 the world a different side to the war. That to 1:18:05.720 --> 1:18:08.080 me is madness, Like it doesn't make any sense to me, 1:18:08.200 --> 1:18:10.559 you know, And it's nothing but soft censorship. Some people 1:18:10.560 --> 1:18:12.720 are tell him it's not it's not censorship. Of course, 1:18:12.760 --> 1:18:15.479 it is censorship. This is the way the world works now, Yeah, 1:18:15.560 --> 1:18:17.840 because I mean a huge chunk of the success or 1:18:17.880 --> 1:18:20.840 the visibility of anything that you're putting on YouTube is 1:18:20.920 --> 1:18:23.479 whether or not the algorithm is going to like suggest 1:18:23.560 --> 1:18:26.120 it to people, even people who have watched you or 1:18:26.160 --> 1:18:28.519 other like that. Not even talking about like suggesting it 1:18:28.560 --> 1:18:30.560 to somebody who's never heard of popular front, but like 1:18:31.000 --> 1:18:33.439 people who have watched multiple things that you've done and 1:18:33.560 --> 1:18:36.719 are just on YouTube. The thing that would make sense 1:18:36.920 --> 1:18:38.400 is for when you put out a new thing them 1:18:38.439 --> 1:18:39.880 to get like YouTube to be like, hey, we know 1:18:39.960 --> 1:18:41.800 you've watched the ship check out this, but that's not 1:18:41.880 --> 1:18:43.760 going to happen for a lot of folks because of 1:18:43.800 --> 1:18:47.320 this kind of thing, which is yeah fucked up, Yeah 1:18:47.680 --> 1:18:50.240 yeah right. And it's like it's not just me that 1:18:50.360 --> 1:18:52.639 like I mean, it's other people it's happening as well. 1:18:53.520 --> 1:18:55.559 And basically what it is is if we wanted somebody 1:18:55.600 --> 1:18:58.400 the doc somehow be allowed to be monetized or not 1:18:58.439 --> 1:19:00.439 even monitored. I don't even want the monetizes the whole 1:19:00.479 --> 1:19:04.160 channel is demonetized. I just want it to not be restricted, 1:19:04.280 --> 1:19:07.040 because that is an algorithm torpedo. And you know, it's 1:19:07.040 --> 1:19:09.960 like I would have to rec the whole documentary essentially 1:19:10.040 --> 1:19:13.040 sense of myself, my own journalism, make you excuse me, 1:19:13.360 --> 1:19:16.400 make the integrity of the doc weaker, just to be 1:19:16.560 --> 1:19:19.040 able people to see it like this is war, this 1:19:19.240 --> 1:19:22.000 is real life. I just it's just really depressing, you know, 1:19:22.200 --> 1:19:25.360 And this is something I mean, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook have 1:19:25.439 --> 1:19:27.680 all been guilty of degrees of this, but there's this 1:19:28.360 --> 1:19:31.599 of all other things that don't that that are allowed 1:19:31.640 --> 1:19:34.720 to spread unchecked on those platforms, they have this consistent 1:19:35.720 --> 1:19:38.800 maybe because it's it's easier to algorithmically go after But this, 1:19:39.040 --> 1:19:43.439 this consistent pattern of going after war journalism, um, and 1:19:43.600 --> 1:19:46.080 like your you know, what's happening to your documentary is 1:19:46.160 --> 1:19:48.719 a piece of this, But like the much scarier pieces, 1:19:48.840 --> 1:19:51.880 a tremendous amount of documentation of war crimes in places 1:19:51.960 --> 1:19:55.800 like Syria have been deleted um kind of automatically over 1:19:55.880 --> 1:19:58.559 the years, which means that like again, evidence of crimes 1:19:58.600 --> 1:20:01.240 against humanity has been lost forever because of these kind 1:20:01.320 --> 1:20:05.600 of like purges of of war content that um, I 1:20:05.680 --> 1:20:08.720 don't think are actually protecting anybody from anything, but are 1:20:08.840 --> 1:20:14.160 are perhaps even making things worse. Yeah, of course, and 1:20:14.240 --> 1:20:19.000 it and it allows um, look Russian propaganda or whatever like, 1:20:19.400 --> 1:20:20.960 people are going to seek that out and they're going 1:20:21.000 --> 1:20:24.200 to digest it whatever way they can. So then surely 1:20:24.240 --> 1:20:26.880 you should say, okay, take the brakes off. Let's you 1:20:26.960 --> 1:20:28.680 know if you care, which I mean YouTube is a 1:20:28.760 --> 1:20:31.240 media platform. You would think that they would say, okay, well, 1:20:31.600 --> 1:20:34.280 this is kind of our duty to balance it out, 1:20:34.360 --> 1:20:37.080 to allow all the free information. I'm not even saying, 1:20:37.439 --> 1:20:40.000 oh yeah, through all Russian propaganda. I think people have 1:20:40.080 --> 1:20:42.040 a choice to see whatever they want to see, even 1:20:42.080 --> 1:20:44.720 if it is completely ridiculous but the fact that they're 1:20:44.920 --> 1:20:48.000 they're censoring the stuff that you you would think is 1:20:48.080 --> 1:20:51.880 okay to see because for for for I know, you 1:20:51.920 --> 1:20:53.720 know our content that you won't find a lie in 1:20:53.800 --> 1:20:56.439 that documentary. You know, we're very honest, very frank with 1:20:56.520 --> 1:20:59.840 the situation. We're not white washing fascism in Ukraine. Um. 1:21:00.000 --> 1:21:02.600 And we're certainly not putting out Russian propaganda. We're just 1:21:02.680 --> 1:21:05.880 telling an interesting journalistic story. So you would think as 1:21:05.920 --> 1:21:08.120 a media platform that would be like yeah, right up 1:21:08.120 --> 1:21:10.000 there street, but it's not really a media platform is 1:21:10.000 --> 1:21:12.360 a money making platform, and you know, they just they 1:21:12.479 --> 1:21:15.920 just survived for adverts yep. Um. And I think that 1:21:16.360 --> 1:21:19.080 is kind of where we're gonna We're gonna leave off 1:21:19.160 --> 1:21:20.559 for the day unless you have Do you have anything 1:21:20.600 --> 1:21:23.760 else you wanted to get into on your documentary, Jake, no, man, 1:21:23.840 --> 1:21:25.360 I just I guess the last thing I would say 1:21:25.400 --> 1:21:28.000 is I want people to kind of know that there 1:21:28.040 --> 1:21:31.760 are many different factions out there. This isn't you know. 1:21:31.920 --> 1:21:33.840 I saw some comment being like, oh, you found the 1:21:33.880 --> 1:21:37.160 only fascists and anti fascists in Ukraine. It's like, no, 1:21:37.400 --> 1:21:40.200 there's there's literally I've been documenting them. There's thousands there's 1:21:40.240 --> 1:21:43.519 so many, you know, and not just like oh, anti fascists, yeah, 1:21:43.560 --> 1:21:46.080 we this is what we believe, like people forming units. 1:21:46.120 --> 1:21:50.960 There's a whole pipeline of um anti authoritarian activists there. 1:21:51.080 --> 1:21:55.560 There's loads and generally like Ukrainians um happy. You know, 1:21:55.640 --> 1:21:57.000 they'll they'll take that out they can get. It's not 1:21:57.040 --> 1:21:59.840 like Ukrainians are like god damn those anti fascists. Not 1:22:00.400 --> 1:22:01.760 they love them. They love them the same way they 1:22:01.800 --> 1:22:04.240 love anybody that's defending the country. You know. It's it's 1:22:04.280 --> 1:22:06.479 just normal and I think people should really, you know, 1:22:06.680 --> 1:22:08.240 if they want to watch our doctor as well, like 1:22:08.360 --> 1:22:10.639 if they can share it, that would be great because 1:22:11.040 --> 1:22:13.360 it's just very it's a struggle to get people to 1:22:13.360 --> 1:22:16.080 watch it now because of because if it's been torpedo 1:22:16.200 --> 1:22:18.280 on the algorithm. So if they go to YouTube dot 1:22:18.320 --> 1:22:21.479 com slash popular Front, they'll find it's the first dot there. 1:22:21.520 --> 1:22:23.960 But yeah, people can share it. I'll be great, all right, 1:22:24.080 --> 1:22:27.200 We'll check it out again. The title is Ukraine's anti 1:22:27.240 --> 1:22:30.719 fascist football hooligans fighting the Russian Invasion on the Popular 1:22:30.760 --> 1:22:33.599 Front YouTube channel. We're also going to have a link 1:22:33.680 --> 1:22:35.960 in the bio. If you are someone who doesn't like 1:22:36.240 --> 1:22:39.920 the type things. Yeah, thank you, Jake. All right, everybody, 1:22:40.120 --> 1:22:57.400 that's the episode. Welcome to Tack. It happen here, a 1:22:57.520 --> 1:23:01.920 show that is currently taking lace in the death abortion 1:23:02.080 --> 1:23:07.800 rights in the US. And yeah, it's not good. Um 1:23:08.680 --> 1:23:12.439 with me to talk about this is sharene Is Sophie, 1:23:13.280 --> 1:23:19.080 is Garrison, and is Robert Evans And okay, So what 1:23:19.240 --> 1:23:21.200 one of one of the things that's been happening in 1:23:21.320 --> 1:23:25.559 the immediate wake of the Supreme Court decision that has 1:23:25.800 --> 1:23:28.519 destroyed Review Wade is there's been a lot of discussion 1:23:28.520 --> 1:23:31.240 about the abortion rights movement in Mexico. And by discussion, 1:23:31.360 --> 1:23:34.719 I mean in sort of classical American fashion. People saw 1:23:34.880 --> 1:23:38.560 exactly one meme and reposted it and that's now the 1:23:38.720 --> 1:23:42.519 sum of like all American knowledge about the abortion struggle 1:23:42.560 --> 1:23:45.600 in Mexico. So to try to get a deeper understanding 1:23:45.720 --> 1:23:48.000 of what's been going on in Mexico and how the 1:23:48.040 --> 1:23:52.160 struggle for abortion was one there, we're talking to Erica Yamada, 1:23:52.240 --> 1:23:54.800 who's a feminist and human rights activist born and raised 1:23:54.840 --> 1:23:58.679 in Mexico. Erica, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, 1:23:58.760 --> 1:24:02.800 thank you, and you so much. Chris sharing so figures 1:24:02.880 --> 1:24:06.560 and and Robert I'm so honored and excited to be 1:24:06.760 --> 1:24:10.280 here and very grateful to be considered to share about 1:24:10.360 --> 1:24:15.719 the struggle for abortion rights in Mexico. So before starting 1:24:15.840 --> 1:24:18.519 this discussion, I would like to share a little bit 1:24:18.600 --> 1:24:22.360 about myself and the organization I work in to have 1:24:22.880 --> 1:24:26.920 some background about the experiences and data I will be 1:24:27.120 --> 1:24:32.200 communicating in this space. UM I have been involved in 1:24:32.439 --> 1:24:36.479 many agendas for girls and women's rights for approximately eight 1:24:36.680 --> 1:24:40.679 years now. I am currently part of the Woman Delivered 1:24:40.760 --> 1:24:43.559 twenty twenty class and I also work in the non 1:24:43.640 --> 1:24:50.280 governmental organization Gender Quality, Citizenship, Work and Family that has 1:24:50.360 --> 1:24:54.880 over twenty five years of experience working for sexual and 1:24:55.120 --> 1:24:59.960 productive rights in Mexico, particularly for the access to leave 1:25:00.000 --> 1:25:05.840 goal and safe abortion. Our organization promotes and advocate for 1:25:05.960 --> 1:25:12.960 the sexual and reproductive health and right of use through 1:25:13.120 --> 1:25:15.720 that They Said. That They Said is the network for 1:25:15.920 --> 1:25:19.960 sexual and reproductive rights in Mexico that has presence in 1:25:20.120 --> 1:25:25.880 tolve states and we focus mainly on marginalized communities. We 1:25:26.000 --> 1:25:32.120 support children, use women and advocate for change at local, regional, 1:25:32.400 --> 1:25:37.960 and national level and their access is contributing to the 1:25:38.080 --> 1:25:43.839 criminalize abortion, guarenting access to to health services and generate 1:25:44.800 --> 1:25:49.880 a favorable public opinion about women's right to decide. We 1:25:50.000 --> 1:25:54.000 are also part of the National Court Choice Alliance in 1:25:54.160 --> 1:26:00.880 Mexico and effort of bi organizations General Equality, the Population 1:26:01.040 --> 1:26:06.679 Council EPAS Central America, Catholics for the Right to Decide 1:26:07.080 --> 1:26:13.040 and heat It, each with different expertise regarding abortion. Together 1:26:13.479 --> 1:26:18.280 we have worked on comprehensive strategies that include the legal, 1:26:18.560 --> 1:26:28.360 the social, religious, ethical and investigation aspects of abortion and well, 1:26:29.200 --> 1:26:32.560 I would like to start up like sharing some of 1:26:32.680 --> 1:26:37.560 the context and the legal situation of abortion in Mexico 1:26:37.720 --> 1:26:44.240 if it's okay or or in our country, Voluntary abortion 1:26:44.960 --> 1:26:50.599 UH during the twelve weeks of pregnancy is legalized only 1:26:50.920 --> 1:26:55.800 in certain states. Mexico City, the capital, was the only 1:26:55.920 --> 1:26:59.840 state in the whole country that they criminalized abortion into 1:27:00.000 --> 1:27:04.880 two thousand seven. Twelve years later, in two thousand nineteen, 1:27:05.280 --> 1:27:09.400 the state of of Wahaca became the second state twenty 1:27:09.439 --> 1:27:15.240 sure access to this health service. Afterwards, two thousand twenty 1:27:15.320 --> 1:27:20.559 one was historic. It was a very very historic year. 1:27:20.600 --> 1:27:27.640 It was for states Evaluo Vera, Cruz Bacca, California and 1:27:27.880 --> 1:27:33.240 Polyma also the criminalized abortion. Then this year two thousand 1:27:33.360 --> 1:27:38.000 twenty two, three other states have been added to this 1:27:38.240 --> 1:27:45.320 list Sinaloa, Guerrero and California. This means nine out of 1:27:45.479 --> 1:27:50.200 thirty two states have the criminalized abortion. In the other 1:27:50.840 --> 1:27:55.559 states of the Mexican Republic, abortion is only allowed under 1:27:55.800 --> 1:28:01.800 certain grounds established by the law of each entity. For example, 1:28:02.040 --> 1:28:06.240 if it was a companeous abortion, if the pregnancy was 1:28:06.360 --> 1:28:11.479 due to non consensual insemination, if the woman's life is 1:28:11.560 --> 1:28:17.800 in danger of death, if the product pas serious genetic alterations, 1:28:18.800 --> 1:28:24.760 if the pregnancy causes health effects, among other reasons. It 1:28:25.240 --> 1:28:30.519 depends on each Plano code of each state. And I 1:28:30.600 --> 1:28:34.320 also must add that pregnancy due to right is the 1:28:34.520 --> 1:28:40.120 only indication that permits legal abortion in all states. And 1:28:40.360 --> 1:28:44.320 now coming back to what Chris said that there was 1:28:44.439 --> 1:28:49.040 like a meme. I think, uh, you refer to the 1:28:49.280 --> 1:28:54.960 name of the public protests. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the black 1:28:55.040 --> 1:29:00.080 clad female protesters attacking is it? I couldn't tell. I 1:29:00.120 --> 1:29:02.080 don't recall it's a city hall or a police station 1:29:02.200 --> 1:29:07.040 or something. I I have also seen some of these 1:29:07.120 --> 1:29:12.040 media reports that that they say that we achieve legal 1:29:12.160 --> 1:29:17.600 abortion thanks to these radical public demonstrations, and well, it 1:29:17.800 --> 1:29:22.720 is undeniable that among the most significant achievements is the 1:29:22.920 --> 1:29:28.200 pro mobilization of feminists and women to eradicate violence and 1:29:28.520 --> 1:29:35.520 learn justice Mexico. Mexico has demonstrated the world the revolutionary 1:29:35.640 --> 1:29:39.760 progress with the mass feminist protests and this image is 1:29:40.000 --> 1:29:44.959 from two thousand nineteen. It was a huge feminist protest 1:29:45.520 --> 1:29:50.040 that are condemned violence against women, especially sexual and feminist 1:29:50.080 --> 1:29:55.519 side violence, police brutality, and the intunity that permeates the 1:29:55.640 --> 1:30:00.799 governmental system. We received a lot of internet national media 1:30:00.800 --> 1:30:04.800 attention and it has been one of the like the 1:30:04.920 --> 1:30:10.720 recent highlights of the feminist movement in our country. But 1:30:11.240 --> 1:30:16.720 like the struggle for abortion entails so much more, and 1:30:17.200 --> 1:30:21.120 yes it did have some influence. For example, in two 1:30:21.240 --> 1:30:26.559 thousand twenty, feminists in two states, Quintana and Puebla took 1:30:26.720 --> 1:30:31.240 their local congresses and demanded the discussion of abortion initiatives, 1:30:32.000 --> 1:30:36.320 and they have put this agenda on the table. It 1:30:36.560 --> 1:30:41.880 is worth mentioning that the struggle for abortion that it 1:30:42.080 --> 1:30:48.320 goes back so many years. Feminists have been fighting for 1:30:48.439 --> 1:30:53.160 reproductive rights, including the access to legal abortion for that 1:30:53.400 --> 1:30:59.040 it's now the progress regarding this struggle has unfolded historically 1:30:59.360 --> 1:31:04.479 during the recent years. For many other reasons, One thing 1:31:04.560 --> 1:31:06.880 I want to go back to a little bit to 1:31:07.000 --> 1:31:11.000 talk about is you were talking about the protests being 1:31:11.080 --> 1:31:15.439 pro abortion protests but also talking about antifemicide and anti 1:31:16.640 --> 1:31:18.400 violent stuff, and I was wondering if you could talk 1:31:18.400 --> 1:31:22.240 about the anti femicide it campaigns too, because that's been 1:31:22.280 --> 1:31:25.080 a really big part of this that gets basically no 1:31:25.240 --> 1:31:30.960 coverage in the US. Well, in Mexico, eleven women are 1:31:31.080 --> 1:31:37.600 murdered every day. We have a huge femicide problem that 1:31:37.760 --> 1:31:43.160 has been silenced by the government, even by the president 1:31:43.280 --> 1:31:49.920 who minimizes this horrible situation. So in two thousand nineteen 1:31:50.479 --> 1:31:58.280 there was a UH emblematic case where police officers rape 1:31:58.439 --> 1:32:04.320 and tortured a row and that's how this protest UH 1:32:04.840 --> 1:32:10.200 started and since all the two thousand nineteen, like most 1:32:11.040 --> 1:32:20.720 feminist protests, have been regarding the violence against women. But UH, 1:32:21.960 --> 1:32:26.200 I would also like to add about the struggle for abortion. 1:32:27.360 --> 1:32:31.280 I think that in the global cells the mare, the 1:32:31.439 --> 1:32:38.680 green type it played like the most fundamental roles. UH. 1:32:38.960 --> 1:32:42.280 This movement, which came from Argentina, is one of the 1:32:42.400 --> 1:32:48.120 main successes that strengthened the struggle for abortion rights and 1:32:48.240 --> 1:32:53.599 even the feminist movement in Mexico. It expanded in many 1:32:53.720 --> 1:32:58.200 countries including Mexico. Here we have a national Green Type 1:32:58.320 --> 1:33:01.759 and many local Green type in all of our space, 1:33:02.840 --> 1:33:07.240 and these collectives have played a large role demanding social 1:33:07.360 --> 1:33:13.400 and legal thecuminalization of abortion across the country. And there 1:33:13.560 --> 1:33:20.400 is also an increase of networks that provides self managed 1:33:20.479 --> 1:33:26.719 abortion information and accompaniment services, which have contributed to fighting 1:33:26.800 --> 1:33:31.479 the stigma that still surrounds abortion. And the Green Tide 1:33:31.640 --> 1:33:36.360 and the feminist movement, it's it has become like how 1:33:36.439 --> 1:33:41.840 do you say it's been merged merg and like feminist 1:33:41.960 --> 1:33:46.639 movements and the Green Tide fight for legal and safe abortion, 1:33:46.720 --> 1:33:51.200 but also to radicate the violence against girls and women. Yeah, 1:33:51.280 --> 1:33:55.400 that makes that makes sense. And about the Green Tide, 1:33:55.880 --> 1:33:59.200 I have two questions about the Green Tide. One is 1:34:00.160 --> 1:34:03.280 what kinds of tactics have Green Tide groups been doing? 1:34:03.520 --> 1:34:08.720 And also how how linked have the international movement has been? 1:34:08.880 --> 1:34:13.240 Like how how close how closely have these organization has 1:34:13.280 --> 1:34:19.760 been communicating across and working together across the different countries? Okay, uh? 1:34:20.080 --> 1:34:24.960 Since the Green Tide came from Argentina like the most, 1:34:26.960 --> 1:34:31.759 how do you say the the communication comes from regional 1:34:31.920 --> 1:34:36.479 countries in Latin America and Mexico has been learning from 1:34:36.720 --> 1:34:41.240 these Latin American countries the experiences we have seen the 1:34:41.439 --> 1:34:46.920 feminist movements, the protests also more in the South and 1:34:47.720 --> 1:34:54.080 the the green handkerchief has this very very powerful symbol 1:34:54.560 --> 1:34:58.800 of legal and safe abortion, and these have also contributed 1:34:59.000 --> 1:35:03.920 to the social be communalization of abortion. And wearing the 1:35:04.800 --> 1:35:11.400 green handkerchiefs and in the protest also means demanding this 1:35:13.200 --> 1:35:18.599 health service. And one of our tactics is of course 1:35:19.240 --> 1:35:25.840 pressuring the government. In Mexico. Political will, primarily from the 1:35:26.560 --> 1:35:32.840 left leaning ruling party, has been fundamental for for the becommunalization. 1:35:34.360 --> 1:35:37.439 With the new government that I wade in two thousand 1:35:37.560 --> 1:35:47.080 eighteen headed by Andreo, we have more allies and progressive legislators. 1:35:47.800 --> 1:35:53.519 So due to the majority uh that this political party 1:35:53.640 --> 1:35:59.559 has in many local converses, the feminists of each state 1:35:59.760 --> 1:36:04.080 have been able to pressure and work with these legislators 1:36:04.520 --> 1:36:10.719 and keep pushing this agenda. That's awesome. I think something 1:36:10.760 --> 1:36:13.080 that I'm still stuck on is that at the very 1:36:13.200 --> 1:36:18.280 least all the states agree that abortion is okay if 1:36:18.280 --> 1:36:20.679 it happened from from rape. Is that what you said earlier? 1:36:20.760 --> 1:36:25.080 Like that's the one we we have a federal lot. 1:36:25.560 --> 1:36:31.640 It's the zero forty six met official Mexican norm that 1:36:32.080 --> 1:36:36.519 states that abortion is legal if the pregnancy is due 1:36:36.600 --> 1:36:41.960 to rape, and all the states, all the public officials 1:36:42.040 --> 1:36:47.960 have this obligation to to ensure that this that this happens. 1:36:48.040 --> 1:36:54.000 But sometimes, um, like we we have so many prejudices 1:36:54.320 --> 1:37:00.320 that sometimes even doctors don't respect the law. But by 1:37:00.439 --> 1:37:03.559 not it should be legal. And it's not that they 1:37:03.600 --> 1:37:08.519 all agree, it's the it's the one. Yeah, it's just so, 1:37:08.960 --> 1:37:12.160 I mean, it's definitely has its flaws and people with 1:37:12.200 --> 1:37:17.160 their own biases. But like here, usually the rapists will 1:37:17.160 --> 1:37:19.800 have more rights and protection than the person that got raped. 1:37:19.880 --> 1:37:21.840 Like there are the family is allowed to sue the 1:37:21.920 --> 1:37:25.839 person that got an abortion, for example. It's it's insane, 1:37:26.080 --> 1:37:29.320 but so for then here, a lot of it, a 1:37:29.400 --> 1:37:32.519 lot of the biggotry comes from like Christianity and religion. 1:37:32.640 --> 1:37:34.479 Is it the same, like is that the baseline for 1:37:35.040 --> 1:37:41.520 the opposition there too? Yes, because Mexico is a predominantly 1:37:41.760 --> 1:37:47.160 Catholic country and abortion and feels many controversies due to 1:37:47.320 --> 1:37:51.080 the different positions that are come from this. Religious stances 1:37:51.200 --> 1:37:56.040 is stances that ignore and deny the access to this 1:37:56.240 --> 1:38:01.440 service and deny it's a human rights issue. And religious 1:38:01.880 --> 1:38:06.519 anti rights groups or how how do you say anti 1:38:06.800 --> 1:38:11.960 choice groups have a powerful presence and are actively hindering 1:38:12.280 --> 1:38:17.920 law proposals regarding this topic. The prejudices and stigma are 1:38:18.040 --> 1:38:25.400 present even amongst healthcare providers and sometimes uh the religious people. 1:38:26.080 --> 1:38:31.840 They pressure these healthcare providers, the legislators. For example, every 1:38:31.960 --> 1:38:36.040 time there is a line on local congress. There are 1:38:36.280 --> 1:38:42.599 so many religious groups outside the Congress. They are how 1:38:42.680 --> 1:38:48.200 do you say, like bothering the legislators. They even get 1:38:48.280 --> 1:38:54.799 their personal numbers and they are harassing them. Yes, harassing 1:38:55.000 --> 1:39:00.080 is the work. They're harassing them. So yes, they have 1:39:00.600 --> 1:39:04.280 a lot of power, a lot of money, and these 1:39:04.400 --> 1:39:11.120 effects even the states where abortion is legal, because as 1:39:11.160 --> 1:39:17.280 I said before, sometimes doctors denied it even if it's 1:39:17.360 --> 1:39:24.160 requested under the legal indications. So yes, it's a problem. 1:39:25.880 --> 1:39:30.000 I'm curious what you see as kind of the value 1:39:30.080 --> 1:39:33.320 of the street actions that were carried out as opposed 1:39:33.360 --> 1:39:37.240 to um kind of the the actual organization on the 1:39:37.360 --> 1:39:40.120 legislative side of things, Like what what degree do you 1:39:40.200 --> 1:39:44.479 think both contributed to, you know, the successes that you 1:39:44.479 --> 1:39:50.440 all have seen. I think both were very very important 1:39:50.520 --> 1:39:58.800 to the recent successes. The public demonstrations help the feminist 1:39:59.080 --> 1:40:07.200 movements strengthened. Like it is like yes, this recent protests 1:40:07.280 --> 1:40:11.280 have been the what do you say? It has been 1:40:11.520 --> 1:40:15.519 where the most women have gone out to the streets, 1:40:15.840 --> 1:40:19.799 taken the streets, and it has helped because the government 1:40:19.920 --> 1:40:25.360 has responded to some of our request. But also it 1:40:25.560 --> 1:40:33.680 is extremely important too to talk about the organization. And also, Uh, 1:40:34.000 --> 1:40:37.320 something I didn't mention and that I would like to 1:40:37.400 --> 1:40:42.320 emphasize is that in two thousand twenty one, the Supreme 1:40:42.400 --> 1:40:47.320 Court of Justice in Mexico ruled favorably in four abortion 1:40:47.400 --> 1:40:53.400 related cases, and this provided us with with progressive jurisprudence 1:40:54.040 --> 1:40:59.880 and legal interpretations in favor of recognizing an increasing abortion right. 1:41:00.640 --> 1:41:05.639 So this has how do you say, this has served 1:41:05.800 --> 1:41:13.400 our movement and all the argumentation to push the decriminalizations. 1:41:14.520 --> 1:41:18.799 And well, about the four cases. In the first case, 1:41:19.240 --> 1:41:26.040 the Supreme Court declared that limitations to access legal abortion 1:41:26.320 --> 1:41:30.760 after it must be removed. In the second case, it 1:41:30.920 --> 1:41:40.120 declared that the absolute criminalization of abortion with consent is unconstitutional. Uh. 1:41:41.520 --> 1:41:47.240 And in the third case is it declared that the 1:41:47.479 --> 1:41:52.080 protection of life from the moment of conception is unconstitutional. 1:41:53.520 --> 1:41:58.520 And in the fourth case, the court ruled that legislative 1:41:58.560 --> 1:42:04.200 reforms broadening the boundaries of conscientiens objection in that federal 1:42:04.320 --> 1:42:10.160 health law are unconstitutional. And the Supreme Court is the 1:42:10.640 --> 1:42:16.840 highest court of justice in Mexico and all judges should 1:42:16.920 --> 1:42:22.920 respect what they established. And well, unfortunately it doesn't happen 1:42:23.240 --> 1:42:28.360 in all states. And what it is like the most 1:42:28.439 --> 1:42:32.560 important president we we have right now, and it is 1:42:32.760 --> 1:42:40.200 fundamental for our argumentation in local congresses. I have has 1:42:40.240 --> 1:42:42.439 the national government done anything at all to try to 1:42:42.520 --> 1:42:47.080 force the states who are like not following the rulings too, 1:42:48.120 --> 1:42:54.519 like except the rulings. No, because our president uh he 1:42:56.080 --> 1:43:00.920 he is very neutral in this topic, and he has 1:43:02.120 --> 1:43:08.160 spoken against feminist movements and he thinks that any protest 1:43:08.439 --> 1:43:15.200 means like uh, conservators against his liberal government. So now 1:43:15.520 --> 1:43:22.919 we we don't have this this support from the national government, 1:43:23.120 --> 1:43:27.680 although assignmenttioned before. We have a lot of allies and 1:43:28.080 --> 1:43:35.200 in many instances that have helped to pressure state state 1:43:35.439 --> 1:43:39.639 public officials too to respect a law and to keep 1:43:39.680 --> 1:43:48.439 pushing this agenda. Is the president. I'm just curious and 1:43:49.280 --> 1:43:52.439 I'm ignorant that is the president? Like, well, how is 1:43:52.479 --> 1:43:55.320 he received by the general public, Like what people's like, 1:43:55.800 --> 1:43:57.880 is he neutral because he needs a coward because there 1:43:57.920 --> 1:44:00.960 wasn't one of the rockety votes? But what all right, 1:44:01.040 --> 1:44:05.800 what's the response for the public. He he still has 1:44:06.200 --> 1:44:11.760 a lot of support from from the majority. He he 1:44:12.080 --> 1:44:17.639 is one of the the first how do you stay 1:44:17.760 --> 1:44:23.719 progressive presidents, Although we have been very disappointed by many 1:44:23.840 --> 1:44:29.519 of his actions, for instance the increase of militarization and 1:44:30.080 --> 1:44:36.559 the communalization of feminists, of human rights activists, of journalists. However, 1:44:37.400 --> 1:44:41.280 it is the first time in so many years that 1:44:41.720 --> 1:44:48.960 a president talks about poor indigenous people that uh sends 1:44:49.000 --> 1:44:53.840 support to rural communities. So he still has a lot 1:44:53.960 --> 1:45:01.000 of support. M UM. One thing that I don't know 1:45:01.080 --> 1:45:03.160 how much. I don't know how much you want to 1:45:03.200 --> 1:45:06.559 get into it, but UM we talked to some people, 1:45:08.240 --> 1:45:09.840 Oh god, I don't remember how many months ago now, 1:45:10.040 --> 1:45:12.080 but we talked to some people a while back who 1:45:12.200 --> 1:45:17.920 were UM doing trans rights organizing in Mexico, and they 1:45:17.960 --> 1:45:22.960 were talking a lot about how UM that they were 1:45:22.960 --> 1:45:31.200 talking about how I guess like anti choice conservative groups 1:45:31.240 --> 1:45:35.080 have been using UM have been using sort of organized 1:45:35.120 --> 1:45:38.479 transphobic groups as a way to sort of different attention 1:45:38.520 --> 1:45:41.679 away from the abortion struggle, in the femicide struggle into 1:45:41.960 --> 1:45:47.000 stuff that doesn't like challenges that is quo And yeah, 1:45:47.000 --> 1:45:48.439 and I was wondering, I just wanted to talk about 1:45:48.439 --> 1:45:50.880 that a little bit. Yes, thank you so much for 1:45:51.200 --> 1:46:00.320 talking about this transphobia and in the feminist movements is horrible. 1:46:00.520 --> 1:46:10.520 Like the Transforbaic feminists have been getting to conservative public officials, 1:46:10.840 --> 1:46:16.200 they have been approaching religious groups, and they have even 1:46:16.520 --> 1:46:21.800 affected the abortion agenda because some of our laws include 1:46:22.000 --> 1:46:27.960 people with the capacity to get pregnant. So these health 1:46:28.040 --> 1:46:34.680 services include ah, trans meant and non binary people. But 1:46:34.920 --> 1:46:40.360 this Transforbaic feminists have been how do you say, obstaculizing. 1:46:41.240 --> 1:46:47.519 There's this struggle because of these prejudices, and it is 1:46:47.880 --> 1:46:52.960 very very sad. And some of are some of the 1:46:53.360 --> 1:47:00.280 main and most famous reference references and feminism have been 1:47:00.800 --> 1:47:06.320 signing this transphobic side. And yes, they are approaching to 1:47:06.520 --> 1:47:11.320 the ultra right, and they they have been hindering not 1:47:11.520 --> 1:47:18.639 only trans people's rights, but now women's rights. In Gentlemary, Yeah, 1:47:18.680 --> 1:47:22.360 I think was it. I'm trying to remember off top 1:47:22.400 --> 1:47:23.800 of my head. I think that there was there was 1:47:23.840 --> 1:47:25.920 a picture that was going around. That was some of 1:47:26.000 --> 1:47:29.840 the organizers from one of the Lake trans phobic feminist collectives. 1:47:30.280 --> 1:47:37.320 I like taking pictures with sleeping held around. Yeah, I 1:47:37.400 --> 1:47:39.479 think I think it was sleeping held around. Yeah, but 1:47:42.040 --> 1:47:46.560 I don't know. I haven't seen that. But there was 1:47:46.960 --> 1:47:52.080 a forum some weeks ago. It was a forum in 1:47:52.200 --> 1:47:56.680 the National Altonomous University of Mexico, and it was a 1:47:57.160 --> 1:48:02.280 feminist on discussion and most of the familists who are 1:48:02.600 --> 1:48:06.679 so so famous in all Latin America started to say 1:48:06.760 --> 1:48:15.040 some transpulbic points. So, yes, this anti rights movement is 1:48:15.280 --> 1:48:20.320 very present and in feminism. Yeah, I guess. The other 1:48:20.439 --> 1:48:22.280 thing on that point that I was wondering is how 1:48:22.360 --> 1:48:26.479 have like pro trans feminists been sort of fighting back 1:48:26.520 --> 1:48:31.479 against these people. Has that been happening a lot? Uh, well, 1:48:31.560 --> 1:48:37.080 we're trying, but it has been very, very difficult because 1:48:38.000 --> 1:48:43.480 literally there are transpolic people everywhere everywhere, I mean government 1:48:44.320 --> 1:48:50.000 and non governmental organizations and institutions, and the majority of 1:48:50.120 --> 1:48:57.960 the people are not well these says um socially conscious 1:48:58.080 --> 1:49:05.080 about about trans right, so transport with people who have 1:49:05.400 --> 1:49:12.280 so much more power, but uh, sometimes we we denounce 1:49:12.400 --> 1:49:19.880 it in social media. We reported to two international organizations 1:49:20.840 --> 1:49:24.640 and like, we have all the human rights narrative and 1:49:24.880 --> 1:49:30.479 argumentation in our favor, but it is difficult because there 1:49:30.520 --> 1:49:36.599 are so many trans transports everywhere. Um. We have also 1:49:38.600 --> 1:49:44.759 contacted international organizations to to publicly say that, for example, 1:49:44.880 --> 1:49:47.640 if you want to access a certain grant, you have 1:49:47.840 --> 1:49:55.840 to have an inclusive position. What other ways, uh, we 1:49:57.280 --> 1:50:02.519 like the trans movement has strengthened so much since two 1:50:02.640 --> 1:50:09.400 thousand nineteen because in Mexico City, um uh, the a 1:50:09.600 --> 1:50:18.240 lot to recognize trans children and adolescents was pushed for 1:50:18.400 --> 1:50:23.439 the for the first time, like via the ministative way. 1:50:24.520 --> 1:50:30.160 So there has been how do you say, a commission 1:50:30.240 --> 1:50:38.519 of of trans organizations collectives. So I think that is 1:50:38.640 --> 1:50:45.200 the the most noteworthy thing progress. Yeah, I guess there's 1:50:45.240 --> 1:50:47.920 been a lot of people like looking to the green 1:50:48.000 --> 1:50:51.679 tide and looking to sort of the broader Latin American 1:50:51.920 --> 1:50:55.720 feminist movement for sort of inspiration and also for sort 1:50:55.720 --> 1:50:58.960 of tactical advice. And I was wondering, what, like, what 1:50:59.080 --> 1:51:01.360 advice would you give people in the US who are 1:51:01.439 --> 1:51:05.240 coming into this fight now, and where would you send 1:51:05.320 --> 1:51:08.840 people to learn more stuff about it? Mm hmm. There 1:51:08.960 --> 1:51:14.800 some some key points I consider relevant is firstly the 1:51:15.520 --> 1:51:20.920 visibility of the pro choice agenda and the social ecommunalization 1:51:21.080 --> 1:51:25.640 of abortion. When we talk about Lettle abortion, we we 1:51:25.800 --> 1:51:30.800 have to emphasize a lot also on the social the communalization. 1:51:31.200 --> 1:51:37.040 It is very important to work on strategies to to 1:51:37.240 --> 1:51:42.960 reduce statema and demonstrate that abortion is a common reproductive 1:51:43.200 --> 1:51:48.680 event that must be approached using gender perspective and the 1:51:48.920 --> 1:51:56.839 human rights framework. We we encourage public dissemination of the legal, 1:51:57.320 --> 1:52:02.960 medical and social information with with hard sustained data from 1:52:03.200 --> 1:52:09.200 international organizations that position abortion as a as a human 1:52:09.360 --> 1:52:14.280 right and an essential health service. And related to this 1:52:14.640 --> 1:52:21.439 first point, the narrative and the argumentation, we have to 1:52:21.600 --> 1:52:26.519 focus um the access to save from legal abortion as 1:52:26.600 --> 1:52:31.440 a human rights issue, which means it's a governmental obligation 1:52:31.680 --> 1:52:36.360 to ensure access to this service. On our case Mexico 1:52:36.560 --> 1:52:42.519 as nationally and international commitments regarding girls and women's rights, 1:52:42.600 --> 1:52:47.120 and I'm pretty share the United States also has this commitments, 1:52:47.360 --> 1:52:52.000 so it's their obligation, it's the government's obligation to to 1:52:52.200 --> 1:52:59.200 ensure and also regarding their narrative, we have to work 1:52:59.400 --> 1:53:05.519 on naturalizing abortion and encourage people to stop using this 1:53:05.720 --> 1:53:11.360 word as a crime. Abortion is a human right and 1:53:11.880 --> 1:53:15.960 it is a reproductive event in the life of women 1:53:16.200 --> 1:53:19.960 and people with a capacity to get pregnant. And it's 1:53:20.000 --> 1:53:25.240 a reproductive event that has always existed and will always exist, 1:53:25.400 --> 1:53:33.000 either naturally or induced. And some of the organizations that 1:53:33.320 --> 1:53:38.479 I know of here that that can provide information are 1:53:38.920 --> 1:53:45.439 the Poor Choice Alliance, organizations, Catholics for the Right to Decide. 1:53:45.560 --> 1:53:50.720 They can give the religious and ethical arguments. UM my 1:53:50.960 --> 1:53:57.760 organization Gender Quality, we have the social argumentations. We re 1:53:57.880 --> 1:54:02.320 a company and work with with the girls and women. 1:54:02.600 --> 1:54:05.400 We we are in twelve states and we are in 1:54:05.479 --> 1:54:10.720 the mobilizations. We are in the state on the local congresses. 1:54:11.960 --> 1:54:21.880 Also Heated Heated in Spanish is utiful informers. They have 1:54:22.280 --> 1:54:29.000 all the legal expertise UH and they worked this reforms 1:54:29.120 --> 1:54:34.760 and lost with the criminalized abortion. We have EPAS. EPAS 1:54:35.160 --> 1:54:40.280 is an international organization and they are medical experts and 1:54:40.640 --> 1:54:46.840 they provide all types of data and information regarding this 1:54:47.080 --> 1:54:53.080 part and the Population Council. They are the experts on 1:54:53.840 --> 1:55:02.480 monitoring and investigation and they have many research papers and well. 1:55:03.160 --> 1:55:09.240 There are also like other pages that that can give 1:55:09.320 --> 1:55:16.080 information for example about these they self induced abortion the 1:55:17.360 --> 1:55:22.320 health organization has a protocol. It's a public protocol for 1:55:23.200 --> 1:55:27.560 for self induced abortion, and it is completely safe to 1:55:27.640 --> 1:55:35.720 do it at home. Well, I really appreciate all the information. 1:55:36.240 --> 1:55:40.080 Uh yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much. 1:55:40.200 --> 1:55:44.120 I think it's really helpful to hear um what other 1:55:44.200 --> 1:55:46.520 countries have done in the same struggle. It's like so 1:55:46.680 --> 1:55:49.440 similar but different, the say at the same time, because 1:55:49.480 --> 1:55:51.680 we've dealt with the same similar things like turfs and 1:55:52.600 --> 1:55:56.720 religious like opposition and everything. So it's really helpful, I think, 1:55:57.680 --> 1:56:01.760 to see to realize that first of all, it is 1:56:01.840 --> 1:56:04.040 a basic human right, like it's not even it's like 1:56:04.120 --> 1:56:07.640 internationally an issue. And then just to see how other 1:56:07.680 --> 1:56:11.840 people have organized it's really important, I think, yes, And 1:56:12.400 --> 1:56:16.760 now I believe that we have like kind of a 1:56:16.880 --> 1:56:24.360 similar situation whether well, it's a situation of legal discrimination 1:56:24.880 --> 1:56:28.880 in which only women who live or have the resources 1:56:28.960 --> 1:56:32.760 to travel to the states that have the criminalized abortion 1:56:32.880 --> 1:56:38.080 can exercise the right who a voluntary legal interruption of 1:56:38.160 --> 1:56:43.920 their pregnancy? Am I right? Because I like, I don't 1:56:43.960 --> 1:56:47.480 know much about the situation and the United States, but 1:56:47.600 --> 1:56:52.240 I know that it is legal in some states, right, yeah, yeah, 1:56:53.880 --> 1:56:57.440 some states. And then like in contrast to that, it's 1:56:57.520 --> 1:57:02.040 like legal even in case of rape, and like the 1:57:02.440 --> 1:57:04.480 people that have been raped can be suited. It's like 1:57:04.520 --> 1:57:08.520 a very like up and down kind of balance. Um. 1:57:09.240 --> 1:57:11.920 But yeah, there's definitely both that exists, and I think 1:57:11.960 --> 1:57:16.760 that's where it becomes really hard to extinguish the bad side. 1:57:17.680 --> 1:57:21.080 It's part part of our struggle to be criminalized abortion 1:57:21.160 --> 1:57:25.520 in the other states is because woman who who live 1:57:25.600 --> 1:57:29.840 in poverty and marginalized conditions, who want to have an 1:57:29.880 --> 1:57:34.720 abortion but reside in other states where it's illegal, kind 1:57:34.720 --> 1:57:40.680 of do so under legal circumstances. So it's also a 1:57:41.800 --> 1:57:48.920 class problem. Its yeah, definitely. And also in Mexico there 1:57:48.960 --> 1:57:53.040 are some states that even criminalize us contaneous abortion. It 1:57:53.360 --> 1:57:59.360 it wasn't even induced and instead of calling an ambuments, 1:58:00.040 --> 1:58:03.920 some people called the cubs when when a woman is 1:58:04.080 --> 1:58:12.280 dying because of christ containous abortion. So yes, and this 1:58:12.520 --> 1:58:18.680 has caused also a public health problem affecting girls and 1:58:18.800 --> 1:58:23.000 women in more vulnerable situations who live in the in 1:58:23.120 --> 1:58:29.880 the most restrictive context rural and indigenous communities, also migrants, 1:58:31.000 --> 1:58:37.680 girls and women victims of of sexual abuse, women with disabilities, 1:58:38.040 --> 1:58:45.880 among others, and always, always, always the most vulnerable. Vulnerable 1:58:46.000 --> 1:58:52.720 women are more susceptible to get an unsafe contesting abortions, 1:58:52.840 --> 1:59:00.320 which can get to infections, camorrhaging, uh, injury to to 1:59:00.480 --> 1:59:06.880 internal organs. And even there there are some places like 1:59:07.160 --> 1:59:11.800 in communities work there is not even access to to 1:59:12.040 --> 1:59:17.720 internet or or to basic health services. And m h, 1:59:18.920 --> 1:59:24.800 you're awesome. Women are still buying betool once safe abortions. Yeah, 1:59:24.880 --> 1:59:31.600 and they are like a hundred percent preventable this. Yeah, no, totally, yeah, 1:59:32.360 --> 1:59:37.040 thank you, you're even amazing. Um, but it's interesting because 1:59:37.080 --> 1:59:39.720 that's true. I think regardless of the country, the most 1:59:39.840 --> 1:59:42.320 vulnerable are the most affected. Whether it's I mean it's 1:59:42.360 --> 1:59:45.360 a class issue, it's a race issue, it's a disability issue, 1:59:45.400 --> 1:59:48.960 it's like all these things that I mean, rich people 1:59:48.960 --> 1:59:52.800 will get abortions either way, like privileged people will always 1:59:52.840 --> 1:59:56.160 have a route to take care of themselves. Um. So 1:59:57.160 --> 1:59:59.680 it's just I don't know, it's unfortunate for seeing how 1:59:59.800 --> 2:00:06.920 like humans have functioned regardless of the country that they build. Yes, 2:00:07.360 --> 2:00:13.800 sad and criminalizing abortion does not reduce its practice. I 2:00:13.920 --> 2:00:19.720 think that prohibiting it will like and its practice, and 2:00:20.080 --> 2:00:25.520 it only increases the probabilities of decent, safe procedures, and 2:00:25.880 --> 2:00:31.560 it increases the stigma and prejudices, and it even strengthens 2:00:31.720 --> 2:00:37.320 this empty rights and choice groups. But when abortion is 2:00:37.440 --> 2:00:41.120 performed in a in a safe and important matter, it 2:00:41.280 --> 2:00:47.600 is even less risky that childbirth among other interventions. And 2:00:48.720 --> 2:00:52.720 us for example, it is much safer for for our 2:00:52.800 --> 2:00:57.360 goal to have an abortion than to what you said, 2:00:57.520 --> 2:01:02.840 than to continue with with when when the pregnancy is 2:01:02.920 --> 2:01:08.240 like threatening her life. Ye yes, um, well, that's why 2:01:08.440 --> 2:01:13.640 we have to keep fighting for people. I was really 2:01:14.160 --> 2:01:18.760 getting down there. Yes, and here in Mexico, like bills 2:01:18.880 --> 2:01:24.080 continue to be promoted in different states, we keep forming 2:01:24.240 --> 2:01:29.720 and strengthening alliances, and we have to strengthen these alliances 2:01:29.920 --> 2:01:33.960 with all types of sectors. And that's why the the 2:01:34.080 --> 2:01:39.440 alliance work, for example, because we are the religious sectors 2:01:39.720 --> 2:01:45.240 that we work also with legislators, with doctors, health care providers, 2:01:45.880 --> 2:01:52.480 even in schools, and with the public general. So uh, 2:01:52.880 --> 2:02:01.800 it is a collective effort and the collective commitments mm hmm, yeah, 2:02:03.200 --> 2:02:06.360 very true. I have nothing to add. That's a good 2:02:06.400 --> 2:02:09.280 better than that. Um. So, thank you so much for 2:02:10.520 --> 2:02:14.000 joining us, and I'm going to step away now. Thank 2:02:14.080 --> 2:02:18.840 you asually, of course, yeah, and I guess uh. The 2:02:18.960 --> 2:02:20.680 last thing, well, do you do you have anything else 2:02:20.720 --> 2:02:24.040 you want to say? And then b I where can 2:02:24.080 --> 2:02:27.000 people find you on the internet like if they want to? 2:02:27.440 --> 2:02:30.160 And do you have other organizations and stuff do you 2:02:30.200 --> 2:02:35.080 want to promote? H? I'm like Erica Yamava. You know 2:02:35.320 --> 2:02:41.040 my social media and the organization I work in, it's 2:02:41.240 --> 2:02:47.520 I Giva the Middle Silvavania, Bravai from herere but the 2:02:48.080 --> 2:02:52.400 the National Network for Reproductive Rights where we are intolves states. 2:02:52.760 --> 2:02:58.600 It's called they said, but it's B B E, S 2:02:58.880 --> 2:03:03.960 E R. And you can find those uh in most 2:03:04.040 --> 2:03:10.000 of these states. And we can provide information regarding abortion 2:03:11.160 --> 2:03:15.040 if you write to us. And also something I would 2:03:15.080 --> 2:03:19.120 like to say is that even after it's even nice, 2:03:19.280 --> 2:03:23.560 one must continue to to ensure that these abortion services 2:03:23.640 --> 2:03:28.160 are are when they say, our implement that, and that 2:03:28.480 --> 2:03:33.080 they can reach to all girls and women. That it 2:03:33.200 --> 2:03:40.200 must be guaranteed in paper and in practice. And yes, 2:03:40.360 --> 2:03:47.560 the emphasis in reaching the most underserved and vulnerable populations. 2:03:48.360 --> 2:03:52.760 M hmm all right, well, uh, I think that's probably 2:03:52.800 --> 2:03:54.960 going to do it for us today. Erica, thank you 2:03:55.120 --> 2:03:59.879 so much for talking about It's a wealth of information. 2:04:00.000 --> 2:04:05.200 It's really valuable. Thank you, Yeah, and thank you all 2:04:05.360 --> 2:04:23.440 for listening. That's your episode for the day. Welcome to 2:04:23.640 --> 2:04:27.520 it could happen here. I'm Garrison with me today is Chris, 2:04:28.240 --> 2:04:31.240 and today we'll be talking about something that I was 2:04:31.360 --> 2:04:34.160 wanting to do for Pride Month but time kind of 2:04:34.240 --> 2:04:38.360 got away from me. But we'll be talking with Noah Adams, 2:04:38.600 --> 2:04:42.760 who does research into the kind of crossover between autism 2:04:42.960 --> 2:04:46.040 and being trans I know we've we've briefly mentioned some 2:04:46.200 --> 2:04:49.400 like rhetoric around this on our War on trans People 2:04:49.560 --> 2:04:52.920 series episodes, and Noah was kind enough to reach out 2:04:52.960 --> 2:04:56.120 to me to be willing to discuss this more in depth. 2:04:56.360 --> 2:05:01.120 Of greetings, Hello, thank you. It's it's always Pride Months 2:05:01.160 --> 2:05:04.960 somewhere in the summer. So that's true. That's true. Um So, 2:05:05.280 --> 2:05:07.960 I guess let's I first want to kind of hear 2:05:08.160 --> 2:05:10.600 how you how you personally kind of got into this 2:05:10.720 --> 2:05:13.280 field of research, and then maybe kind of clarify what 2:05:13.600 --> 2:05:19.600 what exactly your your field of research is? Sure, Um, well, 2:05:19.800 --> 2:05:21.960 I guess where do you start? I mean, I'm I'm 2:05:22.000 --> 2:05:25.760 a trans person and I'm also autistic, so it's sort 2:05:25.760 --> 2:05:29.440 of a natural yeah crossover for me. Um, I got 2:05:29.560 --> 2:05:36.760 started in trans research uh or transactivism doing suicidality work. 2:05:37.560 --> 2:05:41.720 Um in such a long time ago now, but in um, 2:05:42.160 --> 2:05:44.560 I think two thousand and six, myself and my best 2:05:44.600 --> 2:05:49.280 friend cycled across Canada to bring awareness for trans suicidality 2:05:50.000 --> 2:05:53.480 um and in memorandum of a person, a friend who 2:05:53.840 --> 2:05:58.320 who committed suicide. UM. So you know, we went to 2:05:58.360 --> 2:06:02.440 a lot of different communities in Canon, including Saskatoon, did 2:06:02.560 --> 2:06:05.600 talks about you know, did talks with local trans communities 2:06:05.600 --> 2:06:09.560 about suicide, audy prevention and stuff. Uh and met a 2:06:09.600 --> 2:06:13.120 lot of great people. Um. And then I came back 2:06:13.360 --> 2:06:17.160 and I did my Master of Social work also on 2:06:17.280 --> 2:06:20.560 trans suicidality research, kind of looking at how there's a 2:06:20.560 --> 2:06:23.280 lot of different research out there and who knows, you know, 2:06:23.640 --> 2:06:25.440 there's a lot of different rates that are given all 2:06:25.560 --> 2:06:28.240 high and and where are we supposed to you know, 2:06:28.400 --> 2:06:31.560 fall on that? Um. And then I finished that and 2:06:31.840 --> 2:06:36.360 I was kind of tired of doing suicidality work. Yeah, 2:06:36.800 --> 2:06:39.600 speaking it's a little bit a little bit exhausting. UM. 2:06:39.920 --> 2:06:42.800 And kind I have a I have a much darker 2:06:42.880 --> 2:06:46.760 sense of humor than I used to. Yeah, um so 2:06:47.800 --> 2:06:51.760 a friend I was kind of drifting into autism work, 2:06:51.880 --> 2:06:56.240 and a friend who, uh Jake Pine, who who's a 2:06:56.320 --> 2:07:00.960 professor now at your university, UM, suggested I kind of 2:07:01.320 --> 2:07:04.320 move into that area. And and here I am so 2:07:04.560 --> 2:07:07.600 with the kind of crossover between being trans and have 2:07:07.800 --> 2:07:11.240 and and uh, I guess I'm not the best I 2:07:11.440 --> 2:07:14.600 don't I don't know, I consciously don't kind of know 2:07:14.720 --> 2:07:17.800 all the what the most appropriate languages would you say 2:07:17.800 --> 2:07:20.040 that you would you prefer to say that you like 2:07:20.360 --> 2:07:24.440 have autism or you are artistic? Um? I mean I 2:07:24.560 --> 2:07:29.240 think it's pretty universal in the autism community to uh 2:07:29.480 --> 2:07:32.920 talk about identity first language. So yeah, exactly, logism kind 2:07:32.960 --> 2:07:36.800 of leads and and that's yeah. I mean I guess 2:07:36.840 --> 2:07:41.400 i'd say I'm autistic. Most people don't say person with autism. Yeah. Yeah. 2:07:42.800 --> 2:07:46.200 So with that, how have you kind of what what 2:07:46.320 --> 2:07:48.840 initially got you to? You know, because we see a 2:07:48.880 --> 2:07:53.360 lot of propaganda and stuff trying to almost like take 2:07:53.400 --> 2:07:58.400 away people's agency around both being trans and and and 2:07:58.840 --> 2:08:02.760 um with and how and being autistic? Right, there's a 2:08:02.840 --> 2:08:05.560 lot of a lot of propaganda, especially from the Turfs 2:08:05.600 --> 2:08:09.160 in the UK really started this out and really accelerated 2:08:09.200 --> 2:08:12.680 on this point. Um. And I mean we're not. There's 2:08:12.760 --> 2:08:17.000 a whole bunch of basically autism exterminationist groups out there, 2:08:17.640 --> 2:08:19.040 um and a whole a whole bunch of other kind 2:08:19.040 --> 2:08:24.600 of problems around this. How when when these kind of 2:08:24.680 --> 2:08:27.840 crossovers start happening, where did you kind of what what 2:08:27.960 --> 2:08:29.840 kind of prompted you to see this and be like, Hey, 2:08:30.120 --> 2:08:32.840 here's this thing that needs to be researched, and here's 2:08:32.840 --> 2:08:35.200 how I'm going to go about it. Because you see 2:08:35.200 --> 2:08:37.560 a lot of people talk about this thing, but it's 2:08:37.600 --> 2:08:41.400 always generally to like attack trans people, um or attack 2:08:41.440 --> 2:08:45.000 autistic people. I mean, you know there's a lot there. 2:08:45.120 --> 2:08:47.960 I mean I would say, you know, my sort of 2:08:48.480 --> 2:08:51.720 seedling of interest is is I just really don't like injustice. 2:08:52.440 --> 2:08:54.640 I really, I mean that's such a broad thing to 2:08:54.680 --> 2:08:58.160 say that I really, you know, injustice against people for 2:08:58.240 --> 2:08:59.600 the sake of who they are really just kind of 2:08:59.640 --> 2:09:03.400 pisses me off. Um. And you know, I mean, when 2:09:03.440 --> 2:09:05.400 you pick a research topic, you've kind of pick something 2:09:05.440 --> 2:09:08.320 that you're willing to spend hours and hours and hours 2:09:08.360 --> 2:09:12.560 in a library or you know, um a virtual library. 2:09:12.760 --> 2:09:14.960 What have you just kind of plowing away at it? 2:09:15.720 --> 2:09:17.960 And and it seemed like I was piste off enough 2:09:18.000 --> 2:09:20.200 at the injustice of the way autistic people, in the 2:09:20.240 --> 2:09:22.640 way trans people are treated, and especially the way I 2:09:22.720 --> 2:09:25.360 think I think we're ignored by both the theaters, by 2:09:25.440 --> 2:09:29.600 both you know, for for turfs and trans exclusionary folks. Um. 2:09:31.120 --> 2:09:34.080 I really feel like we're an easy target where you know, 2:09:34.160 --> 2:09:36.760 autistic people or or for that matter, people with the 2:09:36.840 --> 2:09:39.840 volment of disabilities or people with with any kind of 2:09:40.320 --> 2:09:44.600 um and I'm using having finger pots on as any 2:09:44.680 --> 2:09:48.040 kind of impairment based disability feel like a soft target 2:09:48.320 --> 2:09:51.640 for people that just want to attack trans folks, right like, 2:09:51.680 --> 2:09:56.520 because they're they're a group that are so it's incomprehensible 2:09:56.560 --> 2:09:58.760 to them that we would be able to speak for ourselves. 2:10:00.280 --> 2:10:03.480 So so they're you know, I mean, I don't even 2:10:03.600 --> 2:10:08.360 think that they I don't think they care about autistic people. 2:10:08.400 --> 2:10:11.000 But I don't think they even even occurs to them 2:10:11.040 --> 2:10:13.880 that autodic people might have and trans autistic folks might 2:10:13.920 --> 2:10:18.440 have something to say for themselves. So, what's kind of 2:10:18.640 --> 2:10:22.960 the scope of your research been the for however however 2:10:23.040 --> 2:10:26.240 long you've been working on this for it's it's for 2:10:26.880 --> 2:10:31.040 a PhD program, correct, Yeah, Well, I started doing I 2:10:31.120 --> 2:10:34.280 wrote a book on trans authentic folks. That's sort of 2:10:34.320 --> 2:10:39.560 a series that interviews with folks um and you know, 2:10:39.800 --> 2:10:42.160 I mean I just asked them like about their lives 2:10:42.240 --> 2:10:43.800 and what it was like to be trans and what 2:10:43.880 --> 2:10:45.520 it was like to be autistic, and what it's like 2:10:45.640 --> 2:10:48.160 to you know, try to transition as an autistic person, 2:10:48.200 --> 2:10:50.000 and a lot of stuff came out of that around 2:10:50.440 --> 2:10:52.600 you know, how difficult it can be for folks that 2:10:52.680 --> 2:10:55.520 are their boat to access trans healthcare and to sort 2:10:55.520 --> 2:10:58.360 of navigate their way in the world. Um. And this 2:10:58.920 --> 2:11:01.200 is for my PhD work. It's sort of an outgrowth 2:11:01.240 --> 2:11:06.360 of that. So I'm looking specifically at how trans autistic 2:11:06.520 --> 2:11:10.720 community groups sort of grassroots group formations are are forming 2:11:10.880 --> 2:11:15.440 and and what their goals are. How do you, like, 2:11:16.680 --> 2:11:19.160 how do you go about like ethical research into this topic, 2:11:19.200 --> 2:11:22.360 because definitely the like, you know, there's a certain way 2:11:22.360 --> 2:11:24.440 to like, there's a certain way to be like, I'm 2:11:24.480 --> 2:11:28.160 researching autism and trans people to be like, huh, that's 2:11:28.200 --> 2:11:30.200 a little bit of a side I right, because because 2:11:30.240 --> 2:11:32.160 of how some of because of how like the turf 2:11:32.200 --> 2:11:34.760 groups talk about it. Obviously you're treads and autistic and 2:11:34.840 --> 2:11:38.800 that's two completely different. But like, definitely Yeah, I was 2:11:38.840 --> 2:11:42.040 definitely wondering, like, is there, like how what what types 2:11:42.080 --> 2:11:44.960 of like ways does ethical research go about so that 2:11:45.040 --> 2:11:47.920 you actually understand people when you're when you're talking to them. 2:11:47.960 --> 2:11:50.880 It's not it's not about like here, we need to 2:11:51.040 --> 2:11:53.680 we need to like solve these problems, because they're not 2:11:53.720 --> 2:11:56.560 problems to be solved, But it's it's research into living 2:11:56.640 --> 2:12:00.600 people who are like having lives. Yeah, mean, that's that's 2:12:00.600 --> 2:12:03.880 a great question. Um. I'm sort of starting through that 2:12:04.040 --> 2:12:06.560 myself right now because I'm just you know, working through 2:12:06.640 --> 2:12:11.840 my ethical research proposal. Um, but I think you just 2:12:11.920 --> 2:12:14.640 have to be really honest and open and and really 2:12:14.680 --> 2:12:16.440 write all this stuff out, like how are you going 2:12:16.480 --> 2:12:18.120 to contact people and what are you going to talk 2:12:18.160 --> 2:12:20.880 to them about? And showing other people what you're doing 2:12:21.440 --> 2:12:25.880 and being very open to that process, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, 2:12:26.840 --> 2:12:30.120 In what types of ways do you see the crossover 2:12:30.280 --> 2:12:33.720 kind of between ableism and transphobia and like what how 2:12:33.880 --> 2:12:36.920 how have you seen that crossover be used to kind 2:12:36.960 --> 2:12:39.480 of hurt both trans people and people who are artistic 2:12:39.560 --> 2:12:42.880 and people who are both you know, I mean I 2:12:42.960 --> 2:12:46.880 think the most explicit way has been I you know, 2:12:46.960 --> 2:12:49.800 I see a lot of articles by the Guardian or 2:12:49.880 --> 2:12:53.480 the Daily Mail, you know, bring up the specter of 2:12:53.760 --> 2:12:58.800 autistic people and being overrepresented, overrepresented again in finger quotes, Uh, 2:12:59.720 --> 2:13:02.880 I'm the trans population going to gender clinics and and 2:13:03.120 --> 2:13:06.560 there isn't ever any explanation after you say that that 2:13:06.680 --> 2:13:11.960 the scaremongering is just saying there's artistic people supposedly overrepresented 2:13:12.120 --> 2:13:16.760 among trans folks. Oh no, but as if it doesn't 2:13:16.800 --> 2:13:20.880 need saying. It's it's assumed that that's that's appalling, you know, 2:13:20.960 --> 2:13:24.200 but I like a little bit more explanation. There's there's 2:13:24.360 --> 2:13:26.760 there's a lot said by how they how there's how 2:13:26.840 --> 2:13:28.560 they frame it and how they and like what they 2:13:28.600 --> 2:13:32.200 don't say, um really fright, Like the it's all framed 2:13:32.320 --> 2:13:36.360 as if this is, you know, something that everyone recognizes 2:13:36.480 --> 2:13:40.800 as like a problem. Um, and countering that is really 2:13:40.840 --> 2:13:43.760 challenging because it is. Yeah, because like again you're you're 2:13:43.760 --> 2:13:46.520 doing research into this in this into this specific crossover, 2:13:47.120 --> 2:13:49.760 and what kinds of stuff have you kind of learned 2:13:50.040 --> 2:13:54.600 throughout your research about about this. I mean it's interesting, 2:13:54.720 --> 2:13:58.440 like it's that attitude is also represented in the academic literature, 2:13:58.520 --> 2:14:01.400 like over the last I bet I'd say over the 2:14:01.520 --> 2:14:05.600 last five years, the literature on the crossover of of 2:14:05.720 --> 2:14:09.240 autism and trans folks has like skyrocketed, Like in I 2:14:09.320 --> 2:14:13.200 always say, in to twenty alone, something like a hundred 2:14:13.240 --> 2:14:16.760 and fifty articles were published, whereas two years before that 2:14:16.960 --> 2:14:21.760 maybe twenty UM and and the vast majority of them 2:14:22.160 --> 2:14:27.800 are mentioning the um the co occurrence uh in passing. 2:14:28.080 --> 2:14:30.320 So they're saying, oh, well, we read these other things 2:14:30.680 --> 2:14:33.960 where autism and trans identity co occurs, So thus you 2:14:34.000 --> 2:14:37.720 should be very careful prior to providing trans healthcare because 2:14:37.800 --> 2:14:39.760 they might be autistic. Yeah, That's the only thing I 2:14:39.800 --> 2:14:43.440 wanted to talk about was like people medical gatekeeping aspect, 2:14:44.160 --> 2:14:47.560 and like you especially you see this like turfs. You know, 2:14:47.600 --> 2:14:50.480 there's a lot of like infantilization with the turf Frederick 2:14:50.560 --> 2:14:53.360 around this, and then that kind of leads to this 2:14:53.480 --> 2:14:56.760 type of medical gatekeeping. Yeah, I just think, you know, 2:14:56.880 --> 2:14:58.440 I see I see this. I saw this in a 2:14:58.520 --> 2:15:01.120 book with the interview as I did, and I see 2:15:01.120 --> 2:15:04.040 it in so many other places, and especially conversation with folks. 2:15:04.760 --> 2:15:07.960 Is that, you know, the problem seems to be if 2:15:08.080 --> 2:15:12.600 you tell an unexpected narrative to the person in charge 2:15:12.640 --> 2:15:15.480 of gate keeping you for transgender healthcare, you're going to 2:15:15.560 --> 2:15:18.320 make them nervous. And if you make them nervous, they're 2:15:18.320 --> 2:15:21.080 they're not necessarily gonna say no, but they're gonna say 2:15:21.920 --> 2:15:24.400 to themselves at least, oh, let's wait and see. And 2:15:24.640 --> 2:15:28.960 for for autistic folks, waiting and seeing might mean forever, right, 2:15:29.000 --> 2:15:31.600 Like I talked to folks in the book, uh that, 2:15:32.680 --> 2:15:35.760 you know, without without mentioning actual cities, because of the 2:15:36.320 --> 2:15:39.080 you know, the particular situation of this person. But let's 2:15:39.160 --> 2:15:42.760 let's you know, let's say he lived in New Orleans, uh, 2:15:42.880 --> 2:15:45.200 and he wasn't able to access trans healthcare and New 2:15:45.320 --> 2:15:49.720 Orleans because it just wasn't available to folks who were autistic, 2:15:50.320 --> 2:15:54.160 And so he ended up moving to Chicago, which which shows, 2:15:54.280 --> 2:15:57.000 you know, he moved to Chicago specifically to get trans healthcare, 2:15:57.040 --> 2:16:00.800 which shows a level of capacity that there implying in 2:16:00.880 --> 2:16:03.080 the context of trans health care in New Orleans that 2:16:03.200 --> 2:16:05.800 he's not capable of. But you know, he can upbroot 2:16:05.840 --> 2:16:09.240 his whole life, move across the country, find a doctor. 2:16:09.280 --> 2:16:12.080 And then he talked to the doctor in an informed 2:16:12.120 --> 2:16:15.680 health clinic in Chicago and and they were like, oh, yeah, 2:16:15.800 --> 2:16:17.640 we knew that you were from this city, and we 2:16:17.720 --> 2:16:19.800 do that you were autistic before you told us, because 2:16:19.840 --> 2:16:23.080 there's this whole pipeline of autistic trans folks making the 2:16:23.200 --> 2:16:27.280 migration to Chicago from this particular city because they can't 2:16:27.280 --> 2:16:31.080 get healthcare. I mean, like, you know, I'm also thinking 2:16:31.120 --> 2:16:34.680 about you know, like kids trying to come out as trans, 2:16:35.600 --> 2:16:38.640 um who have autism or have any other kind of 2:16:39.680 --> 2:16:44.280 you know, quote unquote developmental disability UM, and like just 2:16:44.760 --> 2:16:47.360 all of the ways that that can be used to 2:16:47.520 --> 2:16:51.840 gaslight kids about their gender identity. UM. I know in 2:16:51.959 --> 2:16:54.680 your book you mentioned stuff around like self discovery and 2:16:55.000 --> 2:16:58.480 coming out and issues with family. UM, what kind of 2:16:58.600 --> 2:17:00.680 what kind of things have you heard heard about that 2:17:00.760 --> 2:17:06.160 in terms of how how kids that that the kids 2:17:06.200 --> 2:17:10.400 are figuring figuring out gender stuff while also having this 2:17:10.480 --> 2:17:13.400 whole other thing that people use to kind of, you know, 2:17:13.680 --> 2:17:17.000 add on to their experience. I mean, I think, you know, 2:17:17.120 --> 2:17:19.800 one of the things I noticed, especially in you know, 2:17:20.040 --> 2:17:23.600 sort of trans autistic autobiographies, is that you know, gender 2:17:23.680 --> 2:17:26.280 doesn't really make an inherent sort of sense do a 2:17:26.320 --> 2:17:28.840 lot of autistic folks. I mean, it doesn't make sense 2:17:28.879 --> 2:17:31.120 to do. But I mean I have I have something 2:17:31.200 --> 2:17:33.000 going on in my brain. I don't know what it is. 2:17:33.040 --> 2:17:36.920 I don't think it's autism, but yeah, genders never made 2:17:36.959 --> 2:17:40.240 sense to me either, And I think like where you 2:17:40.879 --> 2:17:43.240 for autistic people, especially where you come across things that 2:17:43.320 --> 2:17:46.800 don't make an inherent sort of sense, it's difficult to 2:17:46.879 --> 2:17:49.560 accept them. Like so much in the world doesn't make 2:17:49.600 --> 2:17:51.840 inherent sense. But that can be a real sticking point 2:17:51.879 --> 2:17:55.040 for autistic folks. So, you know, what I see, what 2:17:55.120 --> 2:17:57.480 I seem to see a lot of is that by 2:17:57.560 --> 2:17:59.720 the time folks come out, well, first of all, it's 2:17:59.720 --> 2:18:02.200 see was like, although you know, I don't want to 2:18:02.280 --> 2:18:04.240 quote any particular kind of research on it because I 2:18:04.280 --> 2:18:06.480 think the jury is still out, but it seems like 2:18:07.160 --> 2:18:10.400 autistic people are more likely to identify as non binary 2:18:11.480 --> 2:18:15.040 um or to just not identify with gender at all. Um. 2:18:15.480 --> 2:18:17.720 And it does seem like by the time folks come 2:18:17.760 --> 2:18:21.840 out as trans, whatever you know, permutation of that there 2:18:22.000 --> 2:18:25.200 is for them, um, They've they've tried just about every 2:18:25.240 --> 2:18:28.320 other identity they can, you know, they can try out 2:18:28.920 --> 2:18:32.480 like especially you know, I mean, we're aware that there 2:18:32.520 --> 2:18:37.440 are social stigmas and and and social expectations around gender. 2:18:38.280 --> 2:18:41.280 So I think for for a lot of autistic folks, 2:18:41.360 --> 2:18:43.920 they're going to try to fit that, even though it 2:18:43.959 --> 2:18:45.520 doesn't make sense to them, They're going to try to 2:18:45.600 --> 2:18:48.160 fit within that because they know it exists, and that 2:18:48.320 --> 2:18:50.520 by the time they come out as as trans, like 2:18:52.160 --> 2:18:56.280 or main or female or what have you, like, we 2:18:56.440 --> 2:19:01.520 pretty well know. Is there any any kind of sense? Yeah? No, 2:19:01.640 --> 2:19:03.480 I mean I think that there's a lot of misconceptions 2:19:03.520 --> 2:19:07.160 people have about about i mean, both being trans and 2:19:07.320 --> 2:19:11.800 big autistic. Let let a load being both of Is 2:19:11.840 --> 2:19:16.320 there any like, yeah, like, what's the common misconceptions about this? 2:19:16.440 --> 2:19:18.800 Only kind of on like a broader level. Would you 2:19:18.879 --> 2:19:23.640 like to dispel? Um? Sure, Yeah, I mean I think 2:19:23.640 --> 2:19:27.000 a lot of people get told, you know, you can't 2:19:27.040 --> 2:19:30.200 you can't be autistic because you're too you're too articulate, 2:19:30.720 --> 2:19:32.440 or you know, you have too much of an opinion. 2:19:32.480 --> 2:19:35.400 Autistic people can't have an opinion of themselves, of their 2:19:35.440 --> 2:19:38.720 own life. And yeah, that's gross. I'm paraphrasing, but I 2:19:38.760 --> 2:19:43.320 think that's what it is. Yeah, absolutely, Um, And then 2:19:43.840 --> 2:19:46.720 you know, trans folks get told It's not uncommon to 2:19:46.760 --> 2:19:49.680 get told, oh, well, you can't be autistic because you're trans, 2:19:50.640 --> 2:19:53.879 so you're sort of in this this no, no person's land. 2:19:55.640 --> 2:19:59.120 That's such a it's such like an ontological attack on 2:19:59.240 --> 2:20:03.680 someone's being. It's so really like that's you know, like 2:20:04.879 --> 2:20:08.240 you know already like again just being solely trans or autistic, 2:20:08.320 --> 2:20:10.480 you get some of that, and then together it's like 2:20:10.600 --> 2:20:12.640 it's just attacking every kind of part of you that 2:20:12.720 --> 2:20:15.760 you're trying to figure out. Um well, I mean, I 2:20:15.840 --> 2:20:18.760 mean in terms of attacking people rhetorically, it's sort of 2:20:19.200 --> 2:20:22.120 the perfect weapon because you can make autistic trans people 2:20:22.160 --> 2:20:27.040 into whatever you want to be convenient to you. What 2:20:27.320 --> 2:20:30.200 kinds of stuff do you think people should know about 2:20:30.280 --> 2:20:33.320 this to help kind of either you know, to help 2:20:33.360 --> 2:20:35.400 either like counter some of like the rhetoric around this, 2:20:35.840 --> 2:20:39.480 or just to gain better like personal understanding, right if 2:20:39.520 --> 2:20:41.080 they have if they have you know, people in their 2:20:41.120 --> 2:20:43.800 lives who are like this, or maybe they suspect that 2:20:43.959 --> 2:20:47.120 they're that they're trans and they're autistic. Like how what 2:20:47.240 --> 2:20:48.720 what kinds of what kinds of stuff would you like 2:20:48.920 --> 2:20:53.160 people to be more aware of about this intersection? Well? 2:20:53.280 --> 2:20:55.920 I guess I remember a story someone from the book 2:20:55.959 --> 2:20:59.680 told me about how you know he was He had 2:20:59.800 --> 2:21:02.000 his best friend is is trans and autistic as well 2:21:02.200 --> 2:21:05.080 and has a number of physical disabilities, and he was 2:21:05.160 --> 2:21:07.440 kind of he's sort of the caretaker for him. Um, 2:21:08.120 --> 2:21:11.000 and he was kind of talking to him about how, oh, well, 2:21:11.120 --> 2:21:12.720 I don't know if I'm trans, and I don't know 2:21:12.800 --> 2:21:14.440 if I should you know, if I should use that 2:21:14.640 --> 2:21:17.680 label or like, you know, maybe it's not the right 2:21:17.760 --> 2:21:21.080 thing to do or it's bad or something. And his 2:21:21.200 --> 2:21:23.520 friend was like, well, you know you're not You're not 2:21:23.640 --> 2:21:25.840 a hormone of vampire. Like you're not gonna like suck 2:21:26.200 --> 2:21:28.840 the hormones out of somebody else and and hurt them 2:21:28.879 --> 2:21:31.440 by taking away their testosterone. Like, oh I wish is 2:21:31.959 --> 2:21:36.959 I wish it worked like that? Um, you know I would. 2:21:37.000 --> 2:21:41.320 I would be a trans empire. Um, this is about 2:21:41.360 --> 2:21:43.960 you and what makes you comfortable. It's not about like 2:21:44.120 --> 2:21:47.120 you're not hurting anybody else being yourself. And I think 2:21:47.840 --> 2:21:52.959 you know, autistic folks like anybody else you know, worry 2:21:53.040 --> 2:21:57.760 about I mean, we're we're just as susceptible to the 2:21:57.879 --> 2:22:01.800 attacks on trans folks. Yeah, is anybody else right? Like 2:22:01.920 --> 2:22:04.040 and you worry that, like, well, maybe this isn't the 2:22:04.160 --> 2:22:06.440 right thing to do, but like what are you hurting 2:22:06.640 --> 2:22:09.800 by by exploring it? That doesn't mean you have to 2:22:09.879 --> 2:22:12.160 be trans or you have to transition, or or you 2:22:12.200 --> 2:22:15.120 can't change your mind like, but it doesn't. It doesn't 2:22:15.160 --> 2:22:18.200 hurt anybody, even though you to just be open to it, 2:22:18.480 --> 2:22:23.000 even just like temporarily trying out different names or pronouns. Right, 2:22:23.040 --> 2:22:25.959 it can can be like such a big deal, um, 2:22:26.800 --> 2:22:30.200 and it can be very incidental. Like it doesn't. It 2:22:30.240 --> 2:22:33.200 doesn't need to be so cataclysmic. Right, that's something that 2:22:33.280 --> 2:22:38.000 you can experiment with and it's fine. Right, you never yeah, 2:22:38.280 --> 2:22:41.320 you don't lock yourself into anything. Um, but of course 2:22:41.360 --> 2:22:43.840 you know what it's about, your personal sense of identity. 2:22:44.120 --> 2:22:47.240 Of course it feels much bigger. Well, I think I 2:22:47.320 --> 2:22:49.760 think people worry about what other folks I mean, obviously 2:22:49.800 --> 2:22:52.840 people worry about what other folks will think and mean 2:22:52.959 --> 2:22:56.040 for them. Um, I don't know what I mean. It 2:22:56.080 --> 2:22:58.960 seems like a strange comparison to make. But I don't know. 2:22:59.040 --> 2:23:03.480 If you've seen Crimes of the Future, I've not yet. Oh, 2:23:03.560 --> 2:23:06.800 it's it's really good. It's it's the most recent David 2:23:06.840 --> 2:23:10.240 Cronenberg movie. And there's this great I'm going to give 2:23:10.280 --> 2:23:13.000 away the end of the movie, so spoiler boilers. I 2:23:13.120 --> 2:23:16.000 know we're giving this into a movie podcast what I've 2:23:16.000 --> 2:23:19.000 always wanted. There's this great scene at the end though, 2:23:19.040 --> 2:23:22.120 where Vigo Mortison is like in this he has this 2:23:22.240 --> 2:23:25.440 special like very David Cronaberti bone chair that he has 2:23:25.520 --> 2:23:27.480 to like be in to move him around what he's eating, 2:23:28.200 --> 2:23:31.000 and he finally is convinced by his partner to like 2:23:31.480 --> 2:23:35.000 try the plastic chocolate bar that's you know, supposed to 2:23:35.080 --> 2:23:37.440 be like it's a whole digestive thing. I will get 2:23:37.480 --> 2:23:40.080 into it. But you know, there's this moment of realization 2:23:40.160 --> 2:23:41.960 and like he's been avoiding this for the whole the 2:23:42.000 --> 2:23:44.280 whole movie, and he like tries it and he's eating 2:23:44.320 --> 2:23:48.720 it and and suddenly there's this this realization moment in 2:23:48.800 --> 2:23:52.280 his face where he's like, oh, this didn't have to 2:23:52.320 --> 2:23:57.600 be so difficult, Like, I society doesn't want me to 2:23:57.680 --> 2:23:59.520 do this, and it's it's seen as a crime, and 2:23:59.600 --> 2:24:02.760 it's see is as terrible. But actually, when you cross 2:24:02.840 --> 2:24:08.000 that rubicon, it wasn't as bad as you thought. Yeah, 2:24:08.200 --> 2:24:11.320 I mean, especially if you if you're even even if 2:24:11.320 --> 2:24:14.200 you're not like coming out to everybody you know at 2:24:14.200 --> 2:24:16.000 the same time, right, you can start you start off 2:24:16.040 --> 2:24:17.480 with a smell group of people that you know are 2:24:17.920 --> 2:24:20.000 gonna be with you, and you try it out with 2:24:20.080 --> 2:24:22.920 them and if you like it, then great, that's that's 2:24:23.000 --> 2:24:25.160 a really good sign if you if you start it 2:24:25.200 --> 2:24:26.840 and you're like, and this doesn't feel right, then you 2:24:26.920 --> 2:24:28.680 don't need to commit. Like it's not a thing. Right. 2:24:29.600 --> 2:24:33.480 That rubicon can feel so big sometimes, yeah, and it 2:24:33.600 --> 2:24:36.680 feels like you're you're jumping across a giant like the 2:24:36.760 --> 2:24:39.560 Grand Canyon. But really all it is is you're stepping across, 2:24:40.200 --> 2:24:43.040 you know, a small stream and you can step right 2:24:43.080 --> 2:24:47.320 back across there if you didn't like it. Yeah, So 2:24:47.560 --> 2:24:49.440 what kind of things we like to see happen around 2:24:49.520 --> 2:24:53.119 like the medical gatekeeping so that it's less fucked up? 2:24:54.040 --> 2:24:56.520 I mean, I know a lot of I'm actually act 2:24:56.720 --> 2:25:01.840 a conference in Belgium right now for trans health sort 2:25:01.840 --> 2:25:07.000 of medical trans health stuff. Um, and you know, I mean, 2:25:07.040 --> 2:25:08.720 I think one of the things I keep coming back 2:25:08.800 --> 2:25:11.920 to is you don't need to treat autistic people in 2:25:12.000 --> 2:25:14.280 the realm of trans healthcare any differently than you do 2:25:14.360 --> 2:25:18.360 anywhere else, like anyone else, Like, especially in the gate 2:25:18.440 --> 2:25:22.440 keeper model, we have like either you have the capacity 2:25:22.520 --> 2:25:25.680 to consent or you don't like that that test is, 2:25:26.280 --> 2:25:29.600 and I have lots of thoughts about that if that's 2:25:29.640 --> 2:25:32.480 for another day. But you know, whether you meet those 2:25:32.560 --> 2:25:34.640 tests or not, it should not be any different just 2:25:34.720 --> 2:25:38.120 because you're autistic. UM would like to, I guess talk 2:25:38.560 --> 2:25:42.320 briefly about your book. Um, you know, what's it like? What? 2:25:42.600 --> 2:25:44.320 What what the scope of it is? Where people can 2:25:44.400 --> 2:25:49.760 find it? Um, trans and Autistic Stories from Our Stories 2:25:49.760 --> 2:25:53.920 from Life at the Intersection by Jessica Kingsley Publishers. UM. 2:25:54.440 --> 2:25:57.240 It was out in I think people can find it 2:25:57.280 --> 2:25:59.760 on Amazon or wherever you buy books. I'm sure Paul's 2:25:59.800 --> 2:26:05.040 book store over there in Portland has it. Um. Yeah, 2:26:05.160 --> 2:26:07.360 it's it's a series of interviews with folks who are 2:26:07.600 --> 2:26:10.640 trans and artistic. I sat down with folks and and 2:26:10.920 --> 2:26:13.200 asked them about their life and and what's going on 2:26:13.320 --> 2:26:15.880 and what that looks like. And then I sort of, uh, 2:26:17.000 --> 2:26:19.879 you know, try to transcribe that into into a text, 2:26:19.959 --> 2:26:21.959 into a narrative form and put that in a book. 2:26:22.000 --> 2:26:25.280 And here we are. That sounds wonderful. Um. I see 2:26:25.320 --> 2:26:27.359 the I see that, I see the listing on Amazon 2:26:27.520 --> 2:26:31.240 dot c A for our for our Canadian Canadian folks 2:26:31.280 --> 2:26:35.480 as well. UM. Yeah, thank you so much for talking 2:26:35.560 --> 2:26:38.240 about this. Um, is there any other kind of random 2:26:38.320 --> 2:26:39.880 thoughts that you would like to you would like to 2:26:39.959 --> 2:26:44.480 mention that we haven't that we haven't brought up yet. Sure. Um. 2:26:45.320 --> 2:26:47.800 You know, I always like to plug groups Walsh's work, 2:26:47.959 --> 2:26:50.680 which looks at you know, they do a lot of 2:26:50.760 --> 2:26:54.440 work in trans autistic stuff too, and they kind of 2:26:54.520 --> 2:26:58.400 look at why more people may be trans and autistic, uh, 2:26:58.520 --> 2:27:01.520 And one of the things they've they found is that 2:27:01.640 --> 2:27:06.600 it may be that uh, autistic people are both less 2:27:06.640 --> 2:27:09.960 capable of hiding the fact that they're trans and less 2:27:10.640 --> 2:27:14.240 less capable of caring um or caring about hiding it, 2:27:14.800 --> 2:27:20.720 so it may be more obvious that there is a concurrence. 2:27:20.760 --> 2:27:25.280 They're not an actual overage of a concurrence, let's say, yeah, 2:27:25.320 --> 2:27:27.720 of course. Yeah, that means that was definitely in the 2:27:27.800 --> 2:27:33.080 back of my mind. Yeah, huh. Well again, no, thank 2:27:33.160 --> 2:27:37.160 you so much for coming to talk with us. Yeah, 2:27:37.879 --> 2:27:39.440 can I can I plug a couple of things? Is 2:27:39.560 --> 2:27:46.320 that plug? Plug away? This is still still your time, okay. Um. 2:27:46.800 --> 2:27:50.640 So I'm leading a refugee sponsorship group for a group 2:27:50.720 --> 2:27:53.480 of five for a trans guy from the Middle East, 2:27:53.920 --> 2:27:57.920 and we're raising funds through the Metropolitan Community Church in Toronto. 2:27:58.360 --> 2:28:00.640 We got to raise a certain amount before we can 2:28:00.720 --> 2:28:03.760 put the application in and I can give you that link, 2:28:03.879 --> 2:28:07.360 but it's at Canada helps dot org. And the Navy 2:28:07.520 --> 2:28:13.760 is trans Proud, trans Proud, trans and proud you are ill, 2:28:13.840 --> 2:28:15.959 but it's kind of long. I will I will put 2:28:16.040 --> 2:28:17.400 if you send me that link, I will put it 2:28:17.480 --> 2:28:21.560 in the description for people to click on. Awesome and 2:28:21.680 --> 2:28:25.280 you can find me at no atoms on Twitter because 2:28:25.280 --> 2:28:28.119 I got in early enough to get my name. Yeah. Wow, 2:28:28.720 --> 2:28:31.520 March two thousand nine, just right right on the cusp 2:28:32.320 --> 2:28:35.879 right well again, thank you so much for reaching out 2:28:36.080 --> 2:28:39.520 to talk about this intersection. Hopefully if anyone was interested 2:28:40.000 --> 2:28:43.199 what we were talking about, UM, please check out Noah's book, 2:28:43.879 --> 2:28:47.400 UM to just read a whole bunch of stories from 2:28:47.680 --> 2:28:53.080 from from people about this. Yeah. Awesome, thank you, Yeah, 2:28:53.200 --> 2:28:55.480 all right, everyone that does it for us today it's 2:28:55.480 --> 2:29:14.480 the on the other side. Oh yeah, Sophie, that's how 2:29:14.560 --> 2:29:18.480 we opened the episode. I didn't think anything could be 2:29:18.640 --> 2:29:20.600 more appalling than that other thing that you said that 2:29:20.680 --> 2:29:23.240 I want. What I was talking about, Brett Kavanaugh and 2:29:23.320 --> 2:29:27.720 Clarence Thomas wrapped together so tightly that they can't tell 2:29:27.800 --> 2:29:33.120 who's where one person's skin begins in the other. I 2:29:33.280 --> 2:29:37.080 walked you right into it, just like Neil Gorsch walked 2:29:37.200 --> 2:29:39.440 right into that and then decided, you know what, in 2:29:39.600 --> 2:29:43.680 for appendy, in for a pound of um? This is 2:29:43.760 --> 2:29:47.800 it could happen here the podcast about serious problems, where 2:29:47.879 --> 2:29:51.920 we talk about them seriously, and sometimes about the Supreme 2:29:52.000 --> 2:29:55.920 Court having a threesome like that, like that, like that 2:29:56.000 --> 2:29:57.960 cruise ship where there was a threesome and then a 2:29:58.000 --> 2:30:01.320 giant six fight. How's everybody doing today? I think the 2:30:01.400 --> 2:30:05.000 opening will work better if we just believe out and yeah, yes, 2:30:05.160 --> 2:30:09.280 always bleep outcome um except for right there. So I 2:30:09.320 --> 2:30:12.960 I feel like today we should chat about one of 2:30:13.040 --> 2:30:16.960 the many things that's that's a problem, which is a 2:30:17.040 --> 2:30:20.640 specific piece of disinformation that is spreading and not quite 2:30:20.720 --> 2:30:24.280 like wildfire. It's more spreading like in the background, like 2:30:24.440 --> 2:30:27.640 monkey pops on the internet. This is not like the 2:30:27.800 --> 2:30:32.520 number one piece of of of of like conspiratorial nonsense 2:30:32.600 --> 2:30:34.720 that's getting around, but it's getting around deeply, and I'm 2:30:34.760 --> 2:30:36.880 seeing it on the left and the right. You have 2:30:37.080 --> 2:30:39.440 if you spend any time at all on social media, 2:30:40.080 --> 2:30:44.080 which statistically you do, you've probably seen a bunch of 2:30:44.240 --> 2:30:49.680 stories and like freaked out posts about fires and arson 2:30:50.120 --> 2:30:54.560 at agricultural facilities and factories of food factories is often 2:30:54.600 --> 2:30:57.480 how it's phrased. I think the post I saw about 2:30:57.560 --> 2:31:01.160 it that was sort of most emblematic with someone being like, hey, 2:31:01.480 --> 2:31:05.640 you know, uh, you're probably not aware that some huge 2:31:05.720 --> 2:31:08.040 number of chickens died in this fire recently and a 2:31:08.080 --> 2:31:11.240 bunch of cows died in this field. But if you were, 2:31:11.360 --> 2:31:15.280 it's the only thing you'd be talking about. And the 2:31:15.440 --> 2:31:18.520 idea kind of that people are pushing when they when 2:31:18.560 --> 2:31:24.720 they uh, catastrophize this is that there's this massive rash 2:31:24.879 --> 2:31:29.480 of attacks on American food infrastructure, UM at a year 2:31:29.560 --> 2:31:32.760 when we're already due for a food crisis because of 2:31:32.840 --> 2:31:36.520 the Ukraine, and um, it's going to be this this big, 2:31:36.959 --> 2:31:40.160 like looming disaster and some like shady group is trying 2:31:40.240 --> 2:31:45.080 to starve everybody. UM. And we brought in a friend 2:31:45.240 --> 2:31:47.600 to talk about this because it's it is not at 2:31:47.640 --> 2:31:50.720 all what what people who are kind of catastrophizing or 2:31:50.720 --> 2:31:53.640 saying UM. And I wanted to introduce Carl to the show. Carl, 2:31:53.959 --> 2:31:57.039 how are you doing, buddy? You know, living living life 2:31:57.080 --> 2:32:02.039 in a one party state. Yeah yeah, Um, I don't know, man, 2:32:02.080 --> 2:32:03.960 there's a lot of parties these days, like the one 2:32:04.000 --> 2:32:07.520 on that cruise ship. Uh so, or is the Forward 2:32:07.680 --> 2:32:15.440 Party our our favorite? This is a big Yang Gang podcast. Um. Now, Carl, 2:32:16.000 --> 2:32:17.800 you and I had buddies on the old Twitter for 2:32:17.879 --> 2:32:20.080 a while. You were the origin of one of the 2:32:20.280 --> 2:32:24.760 terms that that that we use a lot on this show. Um, 2:32:26.120 --> 2:32:28.520 and uh yeah, I wanted to I wanted to talk 2:32:28.560 --> 2:32:31.160 to you because this is this is a pretty potent 2:32:31.240 --> 2:32:35.440 piece of weaponized on reality. Um. You have been tracking 2:32:35.520 --> 2:32:38.920 this for a while on kind of your Own. Yeah, well, 2:32:40.080 --> 2:32:42.480 this is one of those ones that's it sits in 2:32:42.680 --> 2:32:46.000 between a lot of the other conspiracies, right so, like 2:32:46.240 --> 2:32:50.880 you said, it's it's kind of the background operating thing 2:32:51.080 --> 2:32:56.280 right now. Um. And you know, so when we think 2:32:56.320 --> 2:32:58.920 of the big conspiracies right now, they kind of revolve 2:32:58.959 --> 2:33:02.200 around what they always did, depopulation, weird n W. We 2:33:02.480 --> 2:33:07.080 like secret Society stuff, the Q, the Q brand of that. However, 2:33:07.120 --> 2:33:08.720 we want to look at this is a little bit 2:33:08.840 --> 2:33:14.720 different because this is more overtly political, right So, this 2:33:14.959 --> 2:33:19.279 is this is looking to not just dig the hole 2:33:19.800 --> 2:33:22.920 of well, everyone's out to get us Bill Gates is 2:33:22.959 --> 2:33:25.520 buying all the farmland, you know, the crazy stuff we 2:33:25.640 --> 2:33:27.960 normally I mean, you know that's right in this, but 2:33:28.120 --> 2:33:32.920 it's not the center part um. And yeah, I've been 2:33:32.959 --> 2:33:36.680 looking at this for a few months now since I 2:33:37.000 --> 2:33:39.400 first saw it, and I first saw kind of traces 2:33:39.440 --> 2:33:44.440 of this right after the invasion of Ukraine started, so 2:33:44.840 --> 2:33:50.040 early March. Things started to kind of shift and nothing, 2:33:50.520 --> 2:33:53.000 you know, post here and there that are now missing, 2:33:53.120 --> 2:33:56.160 stuff like that, the kind of classic Well, let's test 2:33:56.200 --> 2:33:58.800 the waters. Let's see how people accept the idea that 2:33:58.959 --> 2:34:02.400 maybe something out you know, in the in the conspiratorial 2:34:02.480 --> 2:34:07.039 way is going on just asking questions type yeah, exactly exactly. 2:34:07.120 --> 2:34:09.720 It's the just asking questions It said, just well maybe 2:34:09.760 --> 2:34:13.400 think about it kind of thing. And those those pique 2:34:13.440 --> 2:34:17.200 my interest because those tend to be test balloons, and 2:34:18.160 --> 2:34:20.600 for this kind of thing, I had a weird you know, 2:34:21.040 --> 2:34:23.480 they're weird feelings you kind of get when you watch 2:34:23.600 --> 2:34:30.960 some of this as much as we do. Yes, yeah, 2:34:31.520 --> 2:34:33.760 and you think kind of sense when the thing has 2:34:33.879 --> 2:34:37.560 enough ingredients to catch on exactly, and especially when they're 2:34:37.600 --> 2:34:41.800 super kind of inflammatory ingredients, right, you know, the Bill 2:34:41.879 --> 2:34:45.199 Gates um buying all the farmland is a good example, 2:34:45.320 --> 2:34:49.200 not quite as inflammatory, but catches on because people, you know, 2:34:49.320 --> 2:34:53.600 it's it's the social paradelia thing. There's always like, there's 2:34:53.600 --> 2:34:55.720 always this, I mean, and this is something again that's 2:34:55.760 --> 2:34:57.920 a broader thing with conspiracies. There's always a germ of truth. 2:34:57.959 --> 2:34:59.800 The germ of truth with that is that Bill Gates 2:34:59.879 --> 2:35:02.039 is on a lot of farmland. Now, if you compare 2:35:02.080 --> 2:35:04.800 it to the total quantity of farmland he has bought, 2:35:04.959 --> 2:35:07.760 very it's like, yeah, it's a fraction point oh three 2:35:08.320 --> 2:35:10.400 or something. I mean, it's an absolutely tiny amount of 2:35:10.440 --> 2:35:13.400 the total, right, Yeah, Because this this country is I 2:35:13.480 --> 2:35:16.680 don't know, if you've looked at him, appresently pretty sizeable country, 2:35:16.840 --> 2:35:20.040 the United States of America kind of a big place 2:35:20.720 --> 2:35:23.920 when you actually look. Yeah, and so the kernel of 2:35:24.040 --> 2:35:28.640 truth is there there. There are fires right there, industrial accidents, 2:35:28.760 --> 2:35:32.760 there are weird stuff happens in big industrial situations. We 2:35:32.879 --> 2:35:36.040 have a large industrial farming situation in this country. So 2:35:36.120 --> 2:35:39.000 you see it. And I think part of what makes 2:35:39.160 --> 2:35:41.560 the kind of the idea that oh, this is suddenly 2:35:41.680 --> 2:35:44.960 happening and it's suddenly like a massive problem easier to 2:35:45.000 --> 2:35:48.360 sell to people is that most Americans know next to 2:35:48.520 --> 2:35:50.720 nothing about the food supply and how it works. Like 2:35:50.800 --> 2:35:53.680 if you have because I grew up in and around farms, 2:35:53.680 --> 2:35:56.040 I've been a lot of my life in agricultural areas. 2:35:56.920 --> 2:36:01.640 Farms and things related to farms catch on fire fucking constantly. 2:36:02.200 --> 2:36:05.200 You may not be Yeah, they're they're like I think 2:36:05.240 --> 2:36:09.120 they said there are five thousand annually annually, about fifteen 2:36:09.160 --> 2:36:13.840 a day. I mean, it's it's giant fields of dried grain. 2:36:14.080 --> 2:36:17.000 It's deeds of dried grain, and it's shipped like silos 2:36:17.080 --> 2:36:19.920 full of like flour and stuff, which is like there's 2:36:20.040 --> 2:36:25.320 nothing like, yeah, silos explode like like the like a 2:36:25.480 --> 2:36:29.920 a silo full of grain is slightly less explosive than 2:36:30.080 --> 2:36:33.560 like a military like missile or some ship. Like they're 2:36:33.959 --> 2:36:36.560 like they detonate if you catch them at the right 2:36:36.600 --> 2:36:39.320 way exactly. And like I know here in Minnesota a 2:36:39.400 --> 2:36:41.600 few years ago and there's video of a floating around. 2:36:41.640 --> 2:36:43.720 You know, there was a you know, a corn, a 2:36:43.800 --> 2:36:47.560 corn silo split and the dust goes out and something 2:36:47.680 --> 2:36:50.040 you know, a car or engine because it's hot, sparks 2:36:50.080 --> 2:36:52.320 it off and it's a fireball. You know, So these 2:36:52.360 --> 2:36:56.440 things happen, and I can remember there was one of 2:36:56.480 --> 2:36:59.000 the last things I saw and I went and covered 2:36:59.040 --> 2:37:01.560 in Texas before I moved, was there's this little town 2:37:01.600 --> 2:37:04.280 called West which is not in West Texas, it's in 2:37:04.360 --> 2:37:09.200 North Texas. It's in between, um, Dallas and Waco, which 2:37:09.320 --> 2:37:12.800 is in between Dallas and Austin, because no, Waco is 2:37:12.840 --> 2:37:16.240 not a destination. And they had this big god it 2:37:16.360 --> 2:37:19.680 was some sort of what was the I'm gonna google 2:37:19.720 --> 2:37:23.400 what the facility was, uh, but it was it was 2:37:23.520 --> 2:37:27.160 this like, um yeah, it was a fertilizer factory and 2:37:27.440 --> 2:37:29.920 it caught on fire. There's a terrifying video of this 2:37:30.000 --> 2:37:32.400 guy with his daughter watching it and it goes off 2:37:33.080 --> 2:37:36.600 like like a fucking fuel air bomb, the massive exploit. 2:37:36.640 --> 2:37:40.040 It killed the entire town's fire department, like all of 2:37:40.120 --> 2:37:46.240 them dead in a second. It was basically fucking anfo 2:37:46.400 --> 2:37:49.959 And because it happens this is like two, I think, um, 2:37:50.160 --> 2:37:52.600 it never it's just this big tragedy. If it had 2:37:52.600 --> 2:37:54.440 happened a couple of years later, there would have been 2:37:54.520 --> 2:37:58.080 like a conspiracy attached to it. It was just yeah, 2:37:58.240 --> 2:38:01.800 it was just slightly to r a but like this 2:38:01.879 --> 2:38:03.840 ship happened. I mean, the point of making is that 2:38:04.240 --> 2:38:06.080 and that we're making here is that like this ship 2:38:06.200 --> 2:38:08.520 happens all the time, and to the numbers we were 2:38:08.560 --> 2:38:13.000 quoting earlier, there's no evidence whatsoever that there are a 2:38:13.200 --> 2:38:16.959 higher number of of these events this year than there 2:38:17.040 --> 2:38:19.800 ever are. Um. Basically, one of the things that we've 2:38:19.879 --> 2:38:22.160 seen is as of like the spring of this year, 2:38:23.360 --> 2:38:28.039 a list has been compiled, um, mainly in places like Gateway, 2:38:28.080 --> 2:38:30.800 Pundit and zero Hedge, where they've got like a hundred 2:38:30.879 --> 2:38:34.160 different events too, and and it it looks very compelling 2:38:34.160 --> 2:38:36.440 when you just see this list of and there's this fire, 2:38:36.480 --> 2:38:38.680 and this many chickens died here, and this many cows died, 2:38:38.720 --> 2:38:41.199 and there was this explosion. But again, if you actually 2:38:41.240 --> 2:38:44.240 look at the number of events that are expected in 2:38:44.320 --> 2:38:47.320 a year, there's nothing abnormal about this, and in fact, 2:38:47.400 --> 2:38:50.600 it's pretty middle of the road for any year. And 2:38:50.760 --> 2:38:53.560 like the bird, the bird calls right, like that's a 2:38:53.600 --> 2:38:57.000 great example of this being just absolutely out of the 2:38:57.160 --> 2:39:00.120 park conspiracy land. I mean, there's a massive eight and 2:39:00.240 --> 2:39:03.840 flu epidemic going on right now that's killed more birds, 2:39:04.160 --> 2:39:08.000 you know, than the last ten years. And so when 2:39:08.040 --> 2:39:10.360 you start talking about you know, three hundred you know, 2:39:10.480 --> 2:39:14.720 three hundred million birds worldwide being called whatever the massive 2:39:14.800 --> 2:39:19.440 numbers that funny how avian flu does that, and that's 2:39:19.440 --> 2:39:23.040 a response. But when you get into the zero hedge, 2:39:23.400 --> 2:39:26.920 who is really pushing this right now world that's one 2:39:26.959 --> 2:39:28.800 of the top ones on the list. And it also 2:39:28.920 --> 2:39:30.920 makes you know they have their little maps up right 2:39:30.959 --> 2:39:33.720 now with all the drop tabs that show right they 2:39:33.879 --> 2:39:37.439 love doing and there's a you see this in other conspiracies. 2:39:37.440 --> 2:39:39.400 I think one of the big ones that that kind 2:39:39.400 --> 2:39:42.080 of was a little I don't know, on the edge 2:39:42.120 --> 2:39:45.640 of of of getting mainstream recently was like the conspiracy 2:39:45.680 --> 2:39:49.800 about people disappearing at national parks where it's like mapped, yeah, 2:39:49.959 --> 2:39:58.360 exactly like it, yeah, and it's like, yeah, man, um people, 2:39:58.520 --> 2:40:01.600 there's three million p in the United States, Like and 2:40:01.879 --> 2:40:04.280 also people go missing while hiking and one of the 2:40:04.520 --> 2:40:06.680 like a bunch of stuff isn't on that list, like 2:40:06.720 --> 2:40:08.800 the number of those people who were found again and 2:40:08.879 --> 2:40:11.120 what exactly a lot of people just like slip and 2:40:11.240 --> 2:40:13.360 fall and never a seat again because they falled out 2:40:13.360 --> 2:40:17.280 a cliff. Yes, national parks are kind of dangerous, funny 2:40:17.360 --> 2:40:20.880 enough once you're off, Yeah, that's why they're fun Yeah exactly. 2:40:21.360 --> 2:40:23.480 There was there was a whole four wh one documentary 2:40:23.520 --> 2:40:25.440 made a few years ago about this person who went missing, 2:40:25.480 --> 2:40:27.800 you like were they were They dropped into a secret 2:40:27.840 --> 2:40:31.480 underground government bunker where they abducted and they like a 2:40:31.600 --> 2:40:33.560 year later they found his body at the bottom of 2:40:33.600 --> 2:40:36.680 a cliff. Yeah, and like it it doesn't you know, 2:40:37.000 --> 2:40:40.400 that doesn't talk about the horrible stuff done with like 2:40:41.000 --> 2:40:44.199 especially in Canada with all of the missing indigenous women. 2:40:45.360 --> 2:40:47.960 Is actually it is actually a big problem. But I 2:40:48.040 --> 2:40:49.560 mean to back to back to the fact, back to 2:40:49.760 --> 2:40:51.640 the farming thing. I think what all of these you 2:40:51.680 --> 2:40:56.000 know stories show is just the innate holder of industrial farming. 2:40:56.400 --> 2:41:03.039 It's actually the scar Yeah, yeah, it is absolutely scary, um, 2:41:03.800 --> 2:41:07.119 but it's also like normal scary. Like the thing that's 2:41:07.120 --> 2:41:11.120 scary is that the system of industrial farming is incredibly dangerous. 2:41:11.160 --> 2:41:14.000 And like, if you actually want to be properly horrified 2:41:14.040 --> 2:41:17.080 about something relating to food production, look at how many 2:41:17.200 --> 2:41:20.160 people die because they get sucked into bogs of pigshit 2:41:21.879 --> 2:41:25.560 or drowning grain stile or drowning grain sile. I mean people, legit, 2:41:27.480 --> 2:41:30.800 whole families. One person will fall in the grain silo 2:41:30.840 --> 2:41:33.240 and they'll try to get him out the whole families. 2:41:33.600 --> 2:41:36.200 I know, I know people who have who have died 2:41:36.240 --> 2:41:40.879 that way because I grew up in the very agricultural area. Yeah, 2:41:41.560 --> 2:41:43.440 a lot of this is just like people don't know 2:41:43.560 --> 2:41:46.920 the country, but sharine, yes, um so industrial. I mean 2:41:47.000 --> 2:41:49.640 like yeah for me, for me someone that hasn't growed 2:41:49.680 --> 2:41:53.959 up in any agricultural area at all, and this is yeah. 2:41:54.720 --> 2:41:58.520 Grain is like so it's like quicksand it sucks you in. 2:41:59.120 --> 2:42:01.320 It takes you to that bottom. If you don't spread 2:42:01.320 --> 2:42:03.440 out immediately, you're going down and there's really no way 2:42:03.520 --> 2:42:06.880 to save somebody. It's stay pretty, stay the funk away 2:42:06.959 --> 2:42:10.080 from grain silos. Yeah, do not play around grain silos, 2:42:10.879 --> 2:42:13.480 around with the grain silo. It is it is. It 2:42:13.600 --> 2:42:15.840 is killed entire families because people will try to save 2:42:15.920 --> 2:42:19.720 each other then they get sucked down and it's it's pretty. Yeah, 2:42:20.000 --> 2:42:24.520 it's bad when you have livestock livestock poop, and sometimes 2:42:24.560 --> 2:42:26.480 that poop is super useful. Chicken ship's one of the 2:42:26.520 --> 2:42:29.720 best fertilizers ever. You can make. Chicken ship very very useful. 2:42:30.200 --> 2:42:33.600 Pigshit is like nasty, it's toxic. It is very hard 2:42:33.640 --> 2:42:36.920 to do anything. It's it's in the ground long enough 2:42:36.959 --> 2:42:39.200 it's a bio Well theoretically, if you were to like 2:42:39.360 --> 2:42:41.480 really care about it, you could you could make a 2:42:41.640 --> 2:42:44.360 use of it given enough time. But there's so many 2:42:44.480 --> 2:42:47.280 pigs because our hunger for bacon is insatiable that you 2:42:47.360 --> 2:42:51.440 wind up with this this massive tox of massive toxic sludge. 2:42:51.480 --> 2:42:53.080 So there's the chunk of the country in which most 2:42:53.120 --> 2:42:56.080 of the pigs come from. There are these huge pigshit 2:42:56.240 --> 2:42:59.640 bogs that are like there are countries smaller than bogs 2:42:59.680 --> 2:43:01.520 of pig ship that we have in the United States, 2:43:01.600 --> 2:43:03.320 and people die in them all the time. They get 2:43:03.320 --> 2:43:06.720 sucked down into the big ship or you suffocate because 2:43:06.760 --> 2:43:08.840 you get one of them bursts. I mean, there's so 2:43:08.920 --> 2:43:11.080 many weird things because it's a meth their methane and 2:43:11.200 --> 2:43:14.800 hydrogen sulfide scences. So it's just like bad things around 2:43:14.879 --> 2:43:19.240 farms all the time, and that's just that's just farming 2:43:19.640 --> 2:43:22.520 and what we're ultimately what we are seeing here. If 2:43:22.560 --> 2:43:24.680 you want to like actually analyze the thing that is 2:43:24.720 --> 2:43:29.160 happening um with all of these conspiracies, it's it's what's 2:43:29.160 --> 2:43:32.360 called the frequency illusion, which is the idea that like 2:43:32.760 --> 2:43:35.199 if you've ever I don't know, if somebody when somebody 2:43:35.280 --> 2:43:37.600 like teaches, like you learn a new word, right, or 2:43:37.600 --> 2:43:39.480 you like you hear about a historic event, and then 2:43:39.520 --> 2:43:45.160 you keep seeing everywhere. This is something that's an author 2:43:45.240 --> 2:43:48.160 that Garrison and I quite like Robert Anton Wilson played 2:43:48.200 --> 2:43:50.280 with a lot um. It's why, like twenty three is 2:43:50.440 --> 2:43:53.240 one thing you'll notice in like Hollywood movies and TV 2:43:53.360 --> 2:43:55.960 shows if you look out for twenty they're fucking everywhere 2:43:56.000 --> 2:43:58.160 because a whole bunch of people who got into Hollywood 2:43:58.160 --> 2:44:00.879 are fans of the same guy. And there's this conspiracy 2:44:00.920 --> 2:44:02.720 with the number of twenty three people sticking. It's all 2:44:02.760 --> 2:44:05.440 over the fucking wire. It's in a bunch of ship um, 2:44:06.120 --> 2:44:08.840 and it's it's yeah, at the base of things like right, 2:44:09.080 --> 2:44:12.520 humans are paradelium, right, So we're looking for patterns and 2:44:12.600 --> 2:44:15.880 static that's what we do. It's part like in my mind, 2:44:15.920 --> 2:44:19.520 it's part of our like ancestral uh, you know, deep 2:44:19.560 --> 2:44:23.200 in the past protection, right, how we cont me? Yeah, 2:44:23.560 --> 2:44:25.920 exactly what's that? And it's how you look for monsters 2:44:25.959 --> 2:44:28.080 in the woods, you know. It's like when we're looking 2:44:28.240 --> 2:44:31.480 for eyes in the dark. That's part of it. And 2:44:31.640 --> 2:44:35.400 so you know, we tend to find meaning in points 2:44:35.920 --> 2:44:38.600 and then try and connect them because that's how we work. 2:44:38.760 --> 2:44:41.840 And so this is a great example of this because 2:44:41.879 --> 2:44:44.800 it hasn't gone full Q level yet where it's just 2:44:46.440 --> 2:44:50.280 absurd to be absurd. The shield itself, like you can 2:44:50.360 --> 2:44:54.000 see where people are trying to pick together points that 2:44:54.320 --> 2:44:58.320 normally are just industrial accidents. And you know, some of 2:44:58.360 --> 2:45:01.240 the stuff I saw early on, for like the cow 2:45:01.360 --> 2:45:05.160 death posts and the stuff related to climate change, what 2:45:05.320 --> 2:45:09.520 you really were seeing was people trying to make order 2:45:09.959 --> 2:45:13.320 out of what is just chaotic accidents and now and 2:45:13.440 --> 2:45:19.640 now yeah, yeah, no, it's it's it's something you rarely 2:45:19.720 --> 2:45:24.119 actually see in the cascade of you know, conspiracy theory 2:45:24.200 --> 2:45:27.560 like this so overtly and it's been really interesting for 2:45:27.640 --> 2:45:31.640 me watching that because you know, as someone who's far 2:45:31.800 --> 2:45:36.400 too into watching people melt their brains. UM. This this 2:45:36.600 --> 2:45:39.120 kind of lays out some of the ways that this 2:45:39.280 --> 2:45:42.480 works for all of us, UM, and I think it 2:45:42.520 --> 2:45:45.720 also offers a roadmap in certain ways to like see 2:45:45.800 --> 2:45:48.640 past it and be able to correct it for yourself 2:45:48.760 --> 2:45:51.480 so you don't get into the same Oh there are 2:45:51.480 --> 2:45:55.320 a thousand points a light here, let's fall all of them. Yeah, 2:45:55.640 --> 2:45:57.960 it's UM. One of the things that's interesting. So, like 2:45:58.480 --> 2:46:03.160 we just called it the the recency bias or the 2:46:03.240 --> 2:46:06.120 frequency illusions, is also the recency illusion, which is like 2:46:06.200 --> 2:46:09.400 the belief that things that you have like noticed only 2:46:09.520 --> 2:46:12.280 recently are a recent phenomena rather than things that go 2:46:12.400 --> 2:46:14.640 back a long time. There these are kind of inter related. 2:46:14.720 --> 2:46:17.720 But this, this sort of phenomena that we're seeing is 2:46:17.760 --> 2:46:22.120 often called the bottom mine off phenomena. And that's so 2:46:22.440 --> 2:46:25.560 so the bottom I'm pretty yeah bottom the bottom mine 2:46:25.560 --> 2:46:29.360 Off group was a it's also called the German Red Army. UM. 2:46:29.520 --> 2:46:33.120 It was a yeah, it was a West German terrorist 2:46:33.280 --> 2:46:37.600 organization from like seventy years ago. Like this is not 2:46:37.879 --> 2:46:41.720 a recent thing, but there was an article about them 2:46:41.879 --> 2:46:45.680 in like a Minnesota St. Paul newspaper in nineteen four 2:46:45.840 --> 2:46:47.680 that happened to be one of the first newspapers with 2:46:47.720 --> 2:46:53.280 an online comment page. Oh no, well yeah, so this 2:46:53.440 --> 2:46:55.199 is like you'll always here referred to as the bottom 2:46:55.200 --> 2:46:57.040 mine off phenomena. It has nothing to do with this 2:46:57.200 --> 2:46:59.800 terrorist group other than the fact that one commenter on 2:47:00.480 --> 2:47:03.720 saw an article about them, um within a couple of 2:47:03.800 --> 2:47:06.520 hours of someone else in their life telling them about 2:47:06.560 --> 2:47:09.080 the group, and so they named it in the common 2:47:09.120 --> 2:47:12.320 section the bottom mine off phenomena because yeah, like it's 2:47:12.360 --> 2:47:16.200 it's which is an example of the phenomena. Um, but 2:47:16.440 --> 2:47:19.400 like that's it is. It is. It's a thing that 2:47:19.480 --> 2:47:22.880 people do for again good reason. Like like you said, 2:47:22.959 --> 2:47:26.640 like if you're a fucking hunter gatherer and you notice that, like, oh, 2:47:26.760 --> 2:47:29.560 after a rainstorm is when the big cats come out 2:47:29.640 --> 2:47:31.600 and hunt. And like if somebody, if one of your 2:47:31.640 --> 2:47:34.800 friends gets eaten by like a tiger, it's probably after 2:47:34.959 --> 2:47:38.720 a rainstorm. You associate after the rainstorm with danger, which 2:47:38.760 --> 2:47:43.359 is like good, right, Like I live inside urban environments, 2:47:43.480 --> 2:47:46.960 the usually usually less. This becomes useful as relating to 2:47:47.040 --> 2:47:52.080 more of our like instinctual practices. Learning to recognize this 2:47:52.280 --> 2:47:56.520 like first step of delusion is really important. Um, I 2:47:56.560 --> 2:48:00.560 don't think decisions in the future, right, But I think 2:48:00.600 --> 2:48:03.119 it's much more similar than we realized to like how 2:48:03.200 --> 2:48:09.120 people think of religion, because even religions people are Yeah, 2:48:09.160 --> 2:48:12.600 like what you're saying is like there's so much chaos. 2:48:12.720 --> 2:48:15.040 People can't make sense of the world. And just like religion, 2:48:15.080 --> 2:48:18.360 you're trying to make order out of disorder and look 2:48:18.400 --> 2:48:20.320 for signs, to look for patterns. It's like an element 2:48:20.360 --> 2:48:23.760 of magical thinking where yes, you look for reasons that 2:48:23.959 --> 2:48:27.080 this has meaning, so I understand where they're coming from. 2:48:29.000 --> 2:48:31.240 And so the problem, again, the problem is not with 2:48:31.360 --> 2:48:33.800 your brain, because this is not like a bad thing 2:48:33.920 --> 2:48:35.520 your brain is doing. It's just a thing your brain 2:48:35.680 --> 2:48:38.840 is doing. The problem is that this is one of 2:48:38.920 --> 2:48:42.560 the easiest ways that bad faith actors can take advantage 2:48:42.600 --> 2:48:45.240 of you and other people, and so in terms of 2:48:45.320 --> 2:48:49.040 protecting yourself and others from it. And again, one of 2:48:49.080 --> 2:48:50.640 the problems with this and one of the things that 2:48:50.760 --> 2:48:54.840 makes it so so much more difficult twenty years ago 2:48:55.040 --> 2:48:57.439 the batter mind how obviously the bottom line how phenomenon 2:48:57.560 --> 2:48:59.200 was as much of a thing as that dude in 2:48:59.240 --> 2:49:03.440 the fucking Commons page that Minnesota paper proves, But there 2:49:03.560 --> 2:49:06.120 was less ship coming at you, so you kind of 2:49:06.200 --> 2:49:08.080 had even if you might get caught for a little 2:49:08.120 --> 2:49:10.040 bit and they're like, oh, is there something weird going 2:49:10.080 --> 2:49:14.000 on with this this German terrorist group. Um, you kind 2:49:14.040 --> 2:49:16.840 of had the space in your head and the space 2:49:16.920 --> 2:49:19.720 in your media diet to like actually parse that out 2:49:19.840 --> 2:49:22.960 and calm down. But today it all comes with you 2:49:23.040 --> 2:49:24.959 with a flood. There's like three new fucked up Supreme 2:49:25.000 --> 2:49:27.480 Court decisions. Oh, and now all of the food factories 2:49:27.520 --> 2:49:29.480 are on fire and all of the chickens are dead, 2:49:29.520 --> 2:49:33.400 and this war in Ukraine is actually elevating the food prices, 2:49:33.440 --> 2:49:36.600 and it all compounds on itself. If you when you 2:49:36.800 --> 2:49:40.800 start seeing something new like this come into your media 2:49:40.879 --> 2:49:43.640 diet that seems scary, one of the first things you 2:49:43.680 --> 2:49:46.760 should do is just try to get a handle on 2:49:47.600 --> 2:49:52.520 the raw numbers this Well, this is a complexity Yeah, 2:49:52.600 --> 2:49:54.720 you know, you know, this is a complexity issue. That's 2:49:54.720 --> 2:49:56.640 how I like to look at it. And that's exactly 2:49:56.680 --> 2:49:59.039 one of the great ways to to kind of get 2:49:59.200 --> 2:50:02.560 disrupt the complex nature of this and the amount of 2:50:02.600 --> 2:50:05.240 it you're taking in is just to start breaking it down. 2:50:05.360 --> 2:50:07.720 Numbers are great, right, Like if you can look and 2:50:07.800 --> 2:50:12.520 see their eighteen thou instances of industrial accidents leading to X, 2:50:12.720 --> 2:50:15.360 y or z and five thousand fires, you start to 2:50:15.440 --> 2:50:18.800 really get yourself into a better position to understand what's 2:50:18.800 --> 2:50:21.680 being thrown at you. Yeah, but I don't think most 2:50:21.720 --> 2:50:26.080 people can actually understand what those numbers mean. Like there's 2:50:26.200 --> 2:50:28.680 like they're large numbers, but I don't think people understand 2:50:28.800 --> 2:50:30.879 like that means a lot of that stuff is happening 2:50:31.040 --> 2:50:33.560 versus just like one or two things you hear about 2:50:33.640 --> 2:50:35.920 and you don't realize that probability wise, that it's like 2:50:36.040 --> 2:50:39.480 insignificant because I don't think those numbers makes sense. I 2:50:39.480 --> 2:50:42.040 mean even to me sometimes I can't. I can't picture 2:50:42.200 --> 2:50:45.320 so many things, So I think it's I don't know, 2:50:45.520 --> 2:50:48.400 maybe it's just like a deficit and how our brains 2:50:48.440 --> 2:50:50.640 would you be able to understand why the numbers exist. 2:50:50.760 --> 2:50:54.920 But you can try to compare them two previous years, right, 2:50:54.959 --> 2:50:58.560 you can't exactly, you can't expand what you're relating to, 2:50:58.760 --> 2:51:00.760 right if you're if you're looking from is everything from 2:51:00.840 --> 2:51:04.360 March to June two, you're like, whoa, this is a 2:51:04.400 --> 2:51:06.320 lot of stuff just in these few months that if 2:51:06.320 --> 2:51:08.800 you compare that to every preceding year for the past 2:51:08.840 --> 2:51:11.680 few years, like, oh, this actually isn't a regular this 2:51:11.879 --> 2:51:14.280 is this is this is still fucked up, but it's 2:51:14.280 --> 2:51:17.520 actually kind of normalized. Um, and it's not. It's not 2:51:18.400 --> 2:51:22.000 an abnormal phenomenon right now. And so even if you 2:51:22.120 --> 2:51:24.360 can't like understand what the numbers are, you can still 2:51:24.400 --> 2:51:27.080 compare them to previous things. But but yeah, I mean 2:51:27.200 --> 2:51:29.360 that does require more work than just like looking at 2:51:29.400 --> 2:51:31.240 a meme, right, And the reason why this stuff works 2:51:31.280 --> 2:51:33.880 is because people know how to exploit this part of 2:51:33.920 --> 2:51:36.960 our brains really well. Not not not not not in 2:51:37.040 --> 2:51:41.160 this part of this brain is useless, right, It has uses, um, 2:51:41.400 --> 2:51:44.279 you can play with it, but it's also is exploitable. 2:51:44.520 --> 2:51:46.440 And and that's the thing that you want to be 2:51:47.000 --> 2:51:50.520 aware of, is trying to be cognizant of if the 2:51:50.640 --> 2:51:54.080 information you're taking in is exploiting this pathway and then 2:51:54.400 --> 2:51:58.680 choosing how how you want to be be circumvent some 2:51:58.800 --> 2:52:01.000 of those mental effects act like well, and we have 2:52:01.160 --> 2:52:03.360 such I mean, as humans, we have a real issue 2:52:03.400 --> 2:52:06.440 with this kind of brain hacking, and it's something we're 2:52:06.520 --> 2:52:09.400 just all kind of getting up to right now and understanding. 2:52:09.520 --> 2:52:11.800 And we still don't fully understand some of this. But 2:52:12.000 --> 2:52:15.160 you know, I UM a lot of the stuff I 2:52:15.440 --> 2:52:18.440 I kind of initially worked off of for the concept 2:52:18.520 --> 2:52:21.920 of weaponized unreality kind of talks about social engineering in 2:52:22.000 --> 2:52:24.520 the way that like freaking was done and hacking back 2:52:24.560 --> 2:52:27.280 in the day was done, and this is so similar 2:52:27.320 --> 2:52:30.120 to that in certain ways that it's kind of shocking, right, 2:52:30.240 --> 2:52:34.080 Like it's a conspiracy, but it's also a management tool 2:52:34.400 --> 2:52:37.240 and it's a it's a memory management and and you know, 2:52:37.360 --> 2:52:41.840 ultimately a reality management tool and giving it numbers looking 2:52:41.879 --> 2:52:44.520 at context like that does take time, but some of 2:52:44.600 --> 2:52:47.959 these are like gonna gonna be hard and fast rules 2:52:48.000 --> 2:52:52.680 probably going forward to like interact with the digital world, 2:52:52.840 --> 2:52:54.560 because this is gonna be how it is for a 2:52:54.720 --> 2:52:58.640 long while. There's a book that was kind of considered 2:52:58.680 --> 2:53:01.400 to be like the foundational text of or at least 2:53:01.400 --> 2:53:04.720 strategic document of the Islamic State, called The Management of 2:53:04.800 --> 2:53:08.040 Savagery Um. And the title gives away what what you're doing, right, 2:53:08.080 --> 2:53:11.400 you're carrying out You're you're engaging in acts of savagery, 2:53:11.560 --> 2:53:14.920 terrorist attacks that that that kill innocent people, that are 2:53:15.120 --> 2:53:19.120 that exists to disrupt um the state that you're in 2:53:19.400 --> 2:53:22.640 in order to and you're attempting to like you're attempting 2:53:22.720 --> 2:53:25.880 to build kind of a melieu of savagery, which then 2:53:26.040 --> 2:53:29.120 provides you the opportunity to take an exert power. And 2:53:29.240 --> 2:53:32.560 what we're seeing here is like the management of cognitive biases, 2:53:32.720 --> 2:53:36.600 right exactly, the management of like these weird little evolutionary 2:53:37.200 --> 2:53:42.480 holdovers in your brain, um that that don't quite work 2:53:42.600 --> 2:53:46.720 in the modern world. But if you understand what what's happening, 2:53:46.800 --> 2:53:48.920 you can take advantage of them, and you can you 2:53:49.040 --> 2:53:52.000 can trick people into thinking things are happening that aren't. 2:53:52.040 --> 2:53:54.600 It's the same. You know, you can see this. The 2:53:54.760 --> 2:53:56.800 right does this very effectively in a lot of the 2:53:56.840 --> 2:54:01.240 anti trans stuff they've been doing, obviously with gay you know, 2:54:01.360 --> 2:54:03.560 if you look at the population trans and of gay people, 2:54:03.959 --> 2:54:07.360 some number of people in that community are going to 2:54:07.520 --> 2:54:10.480 do things that are bad, right, because it's a population 2:54:10.560 --> 2:54:14.440 of human beings, um, and because the country is large enough. 2:54:14.480 --> 2:54:17.320 If you get people hyper focused on here's a story, 2:54:17.440 --> 2:54:19.600 here's another story, here's two, here's three stories. Now, is 2:54:19.680 --> 2:54:21.720 that does that mean that there's any kind of actual 2:54:21.760 --> 2:54:25.080 systemic problem. No. Um, that community is no more likely 2:54:25.160 --> 2:54:27.240 to do things that are bad than any other community. 2:54:27.480 --> 2:54:29.560 But if you get people focused on each of those 2:54:29.640 --> 2:54:33.080 stories in their head, they feel like there's they feel 2:54:33.120 --> 2:54:35.040 like there's an epidemic, and like, well, we have to 2:54:35.080 --> 2:54:36.920 get a handle. It's the same thing that that gets 2:54:36.959 --> 2:54:39.760 done with like Islamic terrorism, right where it's like, yes, 2:54:39.840 --> 2:54:42.920 since nine eleven, actually not that many acts of Islamic 2:54:43.040 --> 2:54:46.080 terrorism in the United States extremely fucking uncommon, much less 2:54:46.120 --> 2:54:49.600 common than right wing terrorism like homegrown terrorism, but the 2:54:49.720 --> 2:54:52.680 media doesn't really cover one of those kinds of terrorism 2:54:52.760 --> 2:54:54.879 and loves to cover the other. So you get people 2:54:55.000 --> 2:54:58.440 periodically tricked into thinking that they're under direct threat from 2:54:58.480 --> 2:55:01.280 the Islamic State or whatever. The right well, and I 2:55:01.360 --> 2:55:03.800 think it's you know, I think going to that point right, 2:55:03.840 --> 2:55:07.360 like it's almost u I mean, it's a reality filter, right, so, 2:55:07.560 --> 2:55:10.280 like it's a way to selectively filter out things that 2:55:10.320 --> 2:55:14.160 would counter the narrative that you're trying to overall push. 2:55:14.240 --> 2:55:17.200 And I think that that's something that's what's interesting me 2:55:17.280 --> 2:55:19.119 about this in a lot of ways is that we're 2:55:19.320 --> 2:55:23.040 seeing a filter being set up that only allows people 2:55:23.080 --> 2:55:26.560 into one lane of this thought. And we've seen what 2:55:26.680 --> 2:55:29.440 the end result of that is with radicalization and things 2:55:29.680 --> 2:55:33.560 that come along with these kind of conspiracies. But it's 2:55:33.600 --> 2:55:37.840 really it's been very wild to watch since the you know, 2:55:37.959 --> 2:55:42.240 the nineteen April till now where we're seeing it. You know, 2:55:42.360 --> 2:55:45.040 Serovich is doing it, every any one of the guys 2:55:45.080 --> 2:55:48.280 you can think of doing it, Yeah, exactly. Tucker ran 2:55:48.720 --> 2:55:51.119 a couple of things on this and kind of interspersed 2:55:51.160 --> 2:55:54.720 it with his you know, white male virility ship. It's 2:55:54.760 --> 2:55:56.840 the we're we're we're in a weird place where these 2:55:57.080 --> 2:55:59.080 are starting to be able to be played with and 2:55:59.280 --> 2:56:02.840 on each other, and that kind of filtering, you know, 2:56:03.000 --> 2:56:08.600 starts to get people onboarded from a conspiracy into you know, 2:56:08.720 --> 2:56:10.880 what we're seeing now is kind of the white nationalist 2:56:11.000 --> 2:56:16.280 Christian nationalist movement. That's that's become that that thing. And 2:56:17.000 --> 2:56:19.560 you know, for me, that's where my interest stems from 2:56:19.680 --> 2:56:22.320 because of this idea of weaponizing on reality, seeing what 2:56:22.440 --> 2:56:25.520 happened in Russia when that happened, and seeing this kind 2:56:25.560 --> 2:56:28.600 of thing which is so similar to that filtering and 2:56:28.800 --> 2:56:32.680 that narrative shift and building that goes on in that world. 2:56:32.800 --> 2:56:38.040 It's it's been you know, staring into a void feels bad. 2:56:38.160 --> 2:56:40.040 Sometimes this is just one where it's like, oh this 2:56:40.200 --> 2:56:43.680 is terrible, and it's just the beginning of it. Every 2:56:43.720 --> 2:56:45.800 once in a while, the void stares back and you're like, 2:56:45.920 --> 2:56:48.720 oh boy, oh yeah no, and that's exactly I mean, 2:56:48.840 --> 2:56:51.520 that's uh, that's the problem is sometimes it just stares 2:56:51.560 --> 2:56:54.200 you right in the eyes and tells you, yeah, I'm here, 2:56:54.760 --> 2:56:59.080 and that's a bad feeling. Yeah. Well, I think that's 2:56:59.120 --> 2:57:02.600 more or less we needed to talk. That would be like, 2:57:02.800 --> 2:57:04.480 you know, like one of the one of the ways 2:57:04.520 --> 2:57:07.160 to combat this, if you can, is honestly, creating your 2:57:07.200 --> 2:57:11.240 own memetic graphs is really useful because these things spread 2:57:11.280 --> 2:57:15.080 so fast when they're in images. Images of of dates 2:57:15.160 --> 2:57:18.680 and instances spread like wildfire. Um So, if you can 2:57:18.920 --> 2:57:22.440 make your own which compares it to previous years, say hey, 2:57:22.840 --> 2:57:25.200 this actually isn't a new pattern, that's something that's been 2:57:25.280 --> 2:57:27.560 this is this is just what happens in industrial farming. 2:57:28.280 --> 2:57:31.800 I think spreading it via memetic images is one of 2:57:31.879 --> 2:57:34.720 the if there is a way to combat it, that's 2:57:34.760 --> 2:57:37.000 probably one of the core ways to go about it, 2:57:37.520 --> 2:57:40.680 just to get how fast those things spread. And again 2:57:40.800 --> 2:57:43.240 you can see I've seen some useful people have been 2:57:43.240 --> 2:57:45.600 trying to push back against you know, this idea that 2:57:45.680 --> 2:57:49.000 there's been this like massive crime surge in San Francisco 2:57:49.000 --> 2:57:52.320 and stuff, and they it's uses the same tactics, right, yeah. Absolutely. 2:57:52.680 --> 2:57:55.000 You have like a couple of videos of people shoplifting 2:57:55.160 --> 2:57:57.520 or something, and then you make and and is there 2:57:57.680 --> 2:57:59.880 is that kind of crime actually up? Well no, it 2:58:00.040 --> 2:58:03.920 really isn't. But like it doesn't matter because um or 2:58:04.040 --> 2:58:06.080 is it any higher there than it is in someplace 2:58:06.160 --> 2:58:08.440 like Duluth where no videos are coming out like no, 2:58:08.640 --> 2:58:12.840 it's not, but um, it's uh. If you have to 2:58:12.879 --> 2:58:14.520 be aware, the first thing you have to be aware 2:58:14.560 --> 2:58:16.920 of is the phenomena is like the way in which 2:58:16.959 --> 2:58:20.120 they're taking advantage of you. And then you have to 2:58:20.760 --> 2:58:22.160 you have to kind of deter and you have to 2:58:22.320 --> 2:58:24.680 use the tactics they're using against them. And one of 2:58:24.760 --> 2:58:28.080 the things that is effective is these these graphs with 2:58:28.240 --> 2:58:30.520 kind of like numbers and dates and ship on them. 2:58:30.840 --> 2:58:36.880 People love to feel like they're looking at research. But yeah, 2:58:37.040 --> 2:58:39.520 at the same time though not to not to be like, 2:58:40.120 --> 2:58:43.200 I don't know negative about this at all, but in 2:58:43.320 --> 2:58:46.040 my mind, this is like a modern day version of 2:58:46.080 --> 2:58:48.480 someone starting your religion and make people like making the 2:58:48.560 --> 2:58:51.320 sheep of this like following and then having them turn 2:58:51.360 --> 2:58:54.040 into like whatever it is, whether it's Christian nationalism or whatever. 2:58:54.520 --> 2:58:57.279 But just like in religion, if people are presented with science, 2:58:57.280 --> 2:58:59.680 they don't care, you know what I mean, You'll present 2:58:59.720 --> 2:59:02.160 them with like, I don't know's there's some people that 2:59:03.680 --> 2:59:06.040 it's it's it's not science. It's about everyone wants to 2:59:06.120 --> 2:59:11.320 have access to special, secretive, secret knowledge. Everyone wants to 2:59:11.360 --> 2:59:14.039 have esoteric knowledge that no one else has so these 2:59:14.080 --> 2:59:16.120 graphs are still compelling in the first place because you're like, oh, 2:59:16.560 --> 2:59:18.520 no one else knows all of these things. No one 2:59:18.520 --> 2:59:20.200 else has laid it out in this manner. So if 2:59:20.240 --> 2:59:23.320 you could present your information in that same style, say hey, 2:59:23.840 --> 2:59:25.720 no one knows that this is actually part of this 2:59:25.959 --> 2:59:28.880 overall thing that's been going on for years and it's 2:59:28.879 --> 2:59:31.440 about industrial farming, then you hope that that will spread. 2:59:32.200 --> 2:59:34.840 That Then that spreads because because it infects the same 2:59:34.920 --> 2:59:37.640 point in someone's brain. Right, want to we want to 2:59:37.680 --> 2:59:39.680 feel smart, we want to feel unique, we want to 2:59:39.760 --> 2:59:42.480 have like esoteric knowledge. So if you can, if you 2:59:42.560 --> 2:59:45.720 can frame it to to fit that same mold, then 2:59:45.800 --> 2:59:49.039 it's not science. It's just playing with the same tactics 2:59:49.160 --> 2:59:52.359 that got them convinced of this in the first place. Exactly. 2:59:52.879 --> 2:59:58.280 People that's different. Yeah, I think I think it's true that, like, 2:59:58.440 --> 3:00:01.160 if somebody is a committed believer in in whatever, like 3:00:01.560 --> 3:00:05.680 like Mike Sernovitch or something, you're not convincing them. The 3:00:06.080 --> 3:00:08.520 danger The thing that they're doing that's dangerous is there. 3:00:08.600 --> 3:00:11.199 They're quote unquote pilling a lot of like random people 3:00:11.240 --> 3:00:15.200 into the problem that scares those people. And when those 3:00:15.240 --> 3:00:18.360 people get scared, they're willing to accept ship they wouldn't 3:00:18.360 --> 3:00:22.800 otherwise scare. And I think those people you can push 3:00:23.320 --> 3:00:25.840 get to step down from the ledge because one thing 3:00:25.920 --> 3:00:28.120 we do want this is also a problem. But like 3:00:28.200 --> 3:00:30.400 you think about like climate change, right, and how much 3:00:30.480 --> 3:00:33.760 of the denial of climate change is not based around 3:00:33.800 --> 3:00:37.400 getting people to reject the idea entirely, but getting like 3:00:37.600 --> 3:00:40.080 when people bring up a specific problem being like, well, 3:00:40.360 --> 3:00:42.720 but look at this weird new piece of technology that 3:00:42.840 --> 3:00:44.880 some kid developed, and like, this is going to fix it, 3:00:44.920 --> 3:00:46.720 and then you get to not worry about it. Right, 3:00:47.160 --> 3:00:51.400 So if somebody suddenly starts freaking out about agricultural fires 3:00:51.440 --> 3:00:53.440 for the first time and you're like, actually, they're lower 3:00:53.520 --> 3:00:55.680 than they are in normal years, this isn't a problem, 3:00:56.040 --> 3:00:58.720 then maybe their brain, maybe you can get their brain 3:00:58.800 --> 3:01:00.480 to go like, Okay, that I won't worry about that 3:01:00.560 --> 3:01:02.960 because I don't want more things to worry about. I 3:01:03.080 --> 3:01:07.320 just have been given them. Um, that's targeting the ledge people. 3:01:07.800 --> 3:01:11.160 We're talking. Yeah, you're not getting to true believers. You're 3:01:11.160 --> 3:01:13.280 not getting to true believers at this point of any 3:01:13.320 --> 3:01:15.120 of this stuff. For the most part, you know that 3:01:15.240 --> 3:01:17.840 takes a wholly different level of work. I mean, that's 3:01:18.120 --> 3:01:20.879 that's in the ballpark in my mind of the radicalization, right, 3:01:21.000 --> 3:01:24.000 like you're you're in a wholly different ballpark. And if 3:01:24.040 --> 3:01:26.240 you can target the people who are thinking about jumping 3:01:26.280 --> 3:01:30.000 into the pool too, they tend to if you do 3:01:30.240 --> 3:01:34.599 change their mind, they become some of the biggest proponents 3:01:34.879 --> 3:01:37.200 of trying to get other people off the ledge that 3:01:37.360 --> 3:01:44.520 they might know. And that's something well, it's something, yeah, 3:01:44.600 --> 3:01:47.520 it's it's it's it's very similar, and it's something I've 3:01:47.520 --> 3:01:49.600 seen even in my friends circles, you know, talking to 3:01:49.680 --> 3:01:52.640 people who five years ago, we're fully you know, in 3:01:52.760 --> 3:01:55.240 the all let's do Donald Trump for the lulls thing. 3:01:55.760 --> 3:01:57.640 You know. Now those are the same people who are 3:01:57.680 --> 3:02:01.200 telling their friends, oh shit, we have a Christian nationalist 3:02:01.280 --> 3:02:04.280 movement that's trying to overthrow democracy. And that's a huge 3:02:04.400 --> 3:02:08.840 you know, like that's a huge help, um to everyone. Right. 3:02:08.959 --> 3:02:11.720 You want more people saying the truth to people who 3:02:11.840 --> 3:02:15.520 might not hear it from someone like us um and 3:02:15.920 --> 3:02:21.600 can internalize it and infiltrate. There's you know, the truth 3:02:21.680 --> 3:02:25.480 takes a lot more work than fiction, unfortunately, but once 3:02:25.520 --> 3:02:28.760 it starts to work, it's a compounding thing. And the 3:02:28.840 --> 3:02:32.480 truth tends to really set people free. As corny as 3:02:32.560 --> 3:02:35.360 that is. If people find out they've been lied to, 3:02:36.000 --> 3:02:39.040 they get they want to know why it worked, and 3:02:39.160 --> 3:02:41.800 that works in our favor and the truth's favor, and 3:02:42.879 --> 3:02:45.879 reality is the thing we you know, we gotta protect 3:02:45.920 --> 3:02:50.000 this at all costs because we're getting tidle weight by 3:02:50.720 --> 3:02:53.320 unreality and that's a problem for all of us for 3:02:53.400 --> 3:02:58.560 different reasons. That's the more uplifting note I think than 3:02:58.800 --> 3:03:02.760 a couple of minutes ago. Yeah, all right, well there 3:03:02.879 --> 3:03:10.720 there we go. Um go, I don't know, fix it. Yeah, 3:03:11.480 --> 3:03:14.840 go fix things. Yeah, go fix things. Don't go swimming 3:03:14.920 --> 3:03:19.360 in grain silos, and uh, avoid grain silos. Always avoid 3:03:19.440 --> 3:03:26.040 grain silos. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes 3:03:26.200 --> 3:03:28.680 every week from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:03:29.280 --> 3:03:31.600 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:03:31.879 --> 3:03:34.520 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:03:34.560 --> 3:03:36.640 cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 3:03:36.720 --> 3:03:39.240 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3:03:39.320 --> 3:03:41.800 listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could 3:03:41.800 --> 3:03:44.760 Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com 3:03:44.879 --> 3:03:46.720 slash sources. Thanks for listening,