1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: This is Latino USA, the Radio Journal of News and 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Kurturre Latino US. 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 2: Latino USA. I'm Maria Inojosa. 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: We bring you stories that are underreported but that mattered 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: to you, overlooked by the rest of the media. 6 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: And while the country is struggling to deal with these. 7 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: We listen to the stories of Black and Latino Studios United, 8 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: Latino Front, a cultural renaissance organizing at the forefront of 9 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: the movement. 10 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: I'm Maria Ino Jossa. 11 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 3: You know, if there's anything that my parents taught me 12 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 3: is that writers should be at the vanguard of change. 13 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 3: You know, we are the dreamers of the future. We 14 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 3: are the dreamers of a present that we don't have, 15 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 3: of rights that we don't enjoy. That is our duty, 16 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 3: at least in Latin America, at least in That's how 17 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 3: it is. 18 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: From Futu Media and prex It's lat You know USA. 19 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm Marie jo Josa. Today a conversation with Salvador and 20 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: author Javier Samora on the role of a writer in 21 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: today's world. Javier Samora is a writer, but as a writer, 22 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: he believes he has a particular responsibility to understand and 23 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: also change the world through words. 24 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 3: There is always violence, and it's at the hands of 25 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 3: those in power. We can begin to call that out 26 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 3: and to say stop and never again, and to truly 27 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 3: mean those words. 28 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: In his work, Aviyet has shared some of the most 29 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: intimate and traumatic parts of his own story. He migrated 30 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: as a child from to the US, and he first 31 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: captured that difficult experience in a poetry collection called Unaccompanied. 32 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: You might remember javied from one of Latino USA's most 33 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: listened to episodes. It's called The Return. 34 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 4: It's June tenth. I'm alone at home, I have impact. 35 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 4: I leave tomorrow. 36 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: We followed Javid as he was forced to return to 37 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: El Salvadod after almost two decades of living in the 38 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: US in order to apply for a new visa so 39 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,119 Speaker 1: that he could legally stay. 40 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 4: In the United States. 41 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: After that return, Javier started to work on Solito, his 42 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: memoir recounting his journey to the US as a child. 43 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 3: Abilita kisses me, Nils to hug me. Then Miley and 44 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 3: Abilita hug me at the same time. Only now I cry. 45 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 4: This is it. 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: He goes into detail about those eight weeks he was 47 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: alone making his way through Watemala, and then Mexico. 48 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 3: Grandpa isn't here to talk to me before falling asleep 49 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 3: to go out for walks and explore the town. The 50 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 3: adults don't really talk to me besides good morning, good night, 51 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 3: past the food, wake up, and I'm too shy to 52 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: talk to them. 53 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: There was fear, There was anguish, but also wonder and 54 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: occasional joy. 55 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 3: I didn't see the sunrise in the desert last time. 56 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 3: I was asleep when the truck surrounded us. All of 57 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 3: the colors are amazing. Some still linger at the edges 58 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 3: of the sky, but when sunrise was at its peak, 59 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 3: it felt like we were walking in a painting. 60 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: And all of this told from the perspective of nine 61 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: year old Javier Solita, became a New York Times bestseller. 62 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: In this episode, Habyt and I talk about what it 63 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: was like to go back to one of the most 64 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: difficult moments in his life, and also about the complicated 65 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: relationship he has with his birth country, El Salvador. Here's 66 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: our conversation. Javier, welcome back to Latino, USA. It's been 67 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: a while. 68 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 4: It's been a while, but thank you for having me back. 69 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: I remember back in twenty eighteen, our producer say OK, 70 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: worked with you to document this moment in your personal 71 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: history when you returned to El Salvador twenty years after 72 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: leaving as a child. 73 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 3: So when I land and I go through the checkpoint, 74 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: and I get a whiff of the humidity, and I 75 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 3: get to the road, my Grandpa's waiting. 76 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: There, and so we were there when you met your 77 00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: abuelo and abuela. 78 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 4: My grandma opens the door. 79 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 3: She's in her nightgown and she looks around to see 80 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 3: if anybody's looking, and she doesn't get out of the house. 81 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 3: She waits for me to get in, and she is 82 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 3: way different than what I remembered. 83 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: So I actually wanted to take a moment to just 84 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: hear your thoughts about that experience of documenting the return. 85 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: What do you remember about those moments of making this 86 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: into an audio production. 87 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: Well, I was scared, you know, and having somebody in 88 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 3: this instance, Sayre and also Latino USA care about me 89 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: returning to my country acted like how a therapist acts, 90 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 3: which in we externalize our feelings because we want our 91 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 3: feelings to be held by somebody else. Today I went 92 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 3: to the doctor's appointment, and so in hindsight, I really 93 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 3: appreciate a book that I had my phone in a 94 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 3: very literal sense, I had my phone and my recording 95 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 3: app to record how it was feeling in perpetuity, and 96 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 3: then he begins asking me about drugs. I don't listen 97 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 3: to the episode. I mean I listened to it once 98 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 3: and once was enough. 99 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 4: Had I been stopped or arrested? 100 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 3: And I said no, because I could just hear how 101 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 3: scared I was, And I was scared. I didn't feel 102 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 3: comfortable leaving my grandparents home because my hometown wasn't safe. 103 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 4: I feel down. I really hope that I can go 104 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 4: back to the United States. 105 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 3: I think what was heartbreaking for me in the process 106 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 3: is that I realized that giving the option, I wouldn't 107 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 3: have liked to stay in or and that even saying 108 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,799 Speaker 3: that out loud right now makes me feel a certain 109 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 3: way because this is where I was born. Yeah, and 110 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 3: I always critique the United States, but at that point, 111 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 3: after being back for nineteen years, I was like, well, 112 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 3: I don't feel safe here. Ironically, I feel safer in 113 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 3: the United States, so please let me go back to 114 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 3: the United States. And that is something that I'm still processing, 115 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 3: you know, in the two short months that still has 116 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 3: been the longest that I spent in my country since 117 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 3: getting a green card. I got the sense that my 118 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 3: ideas didn't fit. And it's about it. 119 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: I'm wondering how you see that, the fact that you 120 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: know what is ke kippo. Even though I'm a product 121 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: of this place and it produced me because there are poets, 122 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: so many poets from miss al Bador, the political reality 123 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: of this place is so different than what I knew 124 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: of in the eighties. 125 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: And that what you grew up with. 126 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,119 Speaker 3: I think it isn't it isn't. I think it goes 127 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 3: back historically. My country is a country that hasn't had 128 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 3: one genocide, but multiple. The very first one was in 129 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 3: eighteen thirty two, and literally one hundred years later with 130 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 3: a different part of the country, indigenous and black part 131 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 3: of the country, there was another genocide in nineteen thirty two, 132 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 3: and fast forward, we're about to approach two thousand and 133 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 3: thirty two, and I don't know what's going to happen. 134 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 3: But we are a very small country, a country of 135 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 3: at the time in the eighties, I think it was 136 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 3: only five million people. And how I like to put 137 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 3: it is that the left was asking for a lot 138 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 3: of things, and one of the things that came out 139 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,079 Speaker 3: of the war was something closer to gender equality. 140 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 4: And now fast forward. 141 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 3: To the year twenty twenty three, in which my country 142 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 3: still has one of the highest femicide rates in the 143 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 3: entire world. We're still very and I can say this 144 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 3: backwards regarding sexuality. You know, we're not pro LGBTQ plus. 145 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 3: So these are ideas that I have had the privilege 146 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 3: of going to a university in the United States in which, 147 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: in a side way, I have understood and learned humanity. 148 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 3: And it is not my people's fault in asal Balor, 149 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 3: but I think the loss of life has been so 150 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 3: rampant that we don't value life. And I don't think 151 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 3: it's only a problem of El sal Balor. I think 152 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 3: we're seeing it all over Latin America. And what I'm 153 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 3: really talking about is colonization and also use imperialism, and 154 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 3: we have internalized that and we have taken it out 155 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 3: on our home populations, which is why the home populations migrate. 156 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 3: I do consider myself Salvadoran, and I do miss and 157 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 3: I am a part of Arsavalor, which doesn't mean that 158 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: I can't critique it. I very much love it, and 159 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 3: I very much would like my country to be a 160 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 3: country in which I feel completely myself. 161 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: Let's talk for a moment about the book Solito. Your book. 162 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: You write it as a nine year old, and I 163 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: think this is why it became the New York Times bestseller. 164 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: That did it because you didn't say, I'm Haabir Samoda, 165 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: the poet, and I'm going to tell you what it 166 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: was like. You were like, I am the nine year 167 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: old boy. I am going to tell you exactly what 168 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: I'm feeling the first time I have to use a toilet, Because, 169 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: as you said, you're from El Campo, right, what did 170 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: you do to get to that place of being able 171 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: to write like that nine year old? 172 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 3: And the second meeting that I ever had with my therapist, 173 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 3: who is an immigrant from the dr, she mentioned something 174 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 3: along the lines of what would it look like if 175 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 3: you step in the shoes of this nine year old kid? 176 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 3: And by that point she knew from my first session 177 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: that I was a writer. And then her next sentence was, 178 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 3: what would it look like if you wrote from the 179 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 3: perspective of this nine year old kid? I was already 180 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 3: attempting to write Solito, and, like you mentioned earlier, Solito 181 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 3: was gonna be a memoir told from my twenty nine 182 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 3: year old self at Harvard trying to convince people to 183 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 3: care about the hard is. 184 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 4: Eight weeks of my life. 185 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 3: And I'm a sincere believer of this, that it is 186 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 3: so easy for people to dismiss adults, especially if they 187 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 3: are of color, and especially if they are men of color. 188 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 3: That in a way, what Catro told me, my therapist 189 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 3: told me, it acts almost like a trick. Now, it's 190 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 3: not an adult telling you this story. It is a 191 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 3: nine year old boy. So if you don't listen to 192 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 3: this boy, you're going to look like not a nice person, 193 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 3: Whereas if you were to not listen to it adult. 194 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 3: Everybody does that every single day. 195 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: One of the things that you break open for us, 196 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: and of course this is nineteen ninety nine when you 197 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: do this travel and as a Mexican immigrant, this for 198 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: me is particularly heartbreaking. The way you felt being treated 199 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: by other Mexicans traveling north as a little boy brown campecino, 200 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: and the fact that Mexicans Mihindi would insult you, call 201 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 1: you mohado, which is the slur. 202 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 2: Went back. 203 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: There's the conversation that you want to have about Please 204 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: don't be mistaken. There are divisions among Latinos and in 205 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: this case, Latin Americans. Why is it important for you 206 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: to say, yeah, we're going to talk about these. 207 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 3: Divisions as a non Mexican and you know, all of 208 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 3: us have to get through Mexico to make it here. 209 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 3: And once we make it here, in my opinion, there's 210 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 3: a lot of emphasis at the US Mexico border, and 211 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 3: there's a lot of discussion of the amount of people 212 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 3: that die at the literal border. Every year it keeps 213 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 3: getting higher and higher of the non Mexicans and Mexicans 214 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 3: themselves that die within Mexico trying to make it to 215 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 3: the United States at the hands of either cartels or 216 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 3: the authorities themselves, and so knowing that as an adult 217 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 3: and feeling that as a nine year old child, this, 218 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 3: for lack of a better term, this racism, this xenophobia 219 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 3: towards immigrants, is not that dissimilar to the xenophobia that 220 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 3: white Americans or US citizens have towards immigrants. US citizens 221 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 3: are finally being beginning to accept that Latinos are not 222 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 3: one umbrella term. And I think also Latinos ourselves don't 223 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 3: want to do the hard work of acknowledging that we 224 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: are not a race. We are an ethnicity made up 225 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 3: of a lot of things, and some of us present 226 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: very white, and some of us present indigenous, some of 227 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 3: us present black. And we have to have those hard 228 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: conversations because a lot of the racism that I have 229 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 3: heard is from within my own family, you know, And 230 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 3: we have to tell our parents, our deos, our siblings 231 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 3: that hey, don't say that, let's be better. And the 232 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 3: only context that we have to fall back on is 233 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: our nation state. So yeah, you mentioned no Mexican against 234 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 3: Watemalin and Salvadorans. 235 00:14:55,680 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 4: But it's precisely the nation state that is at fault here, ABYI. 236 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: You dedicate your book to Patricia Garla Chino and all 237 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: the migrants you met along the way. These are people 238 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: who actually traveled with you, strangers who sometimes helped you, 239 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: and you know, in many ways now we've seen that 240 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: in the US media, these kinds of people are categorized 241 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: as human smugglers, as trafficants, as dangerous people. But as 242 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: we know, and as your book shows, it's a much 243 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: more complicated story than that. Why was it important for 244 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: you to write about them and to dedicate your book 245 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: to Patricia, Garla and Chino. 246 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 3: I owe my life to Patricia, Carla and Chino. I 247 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 3: wouldn't be here without them. And for twenty years, from 248 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 3: ages of nine to twenty nine, when I started writing 249 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 3: this book, I was doing the thing that survivors do, 250 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 3: is that I tried my heart is to remember my trip, 251 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 3: but in particularly these three individuals, because the moment I 252 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 3: allowed myself to even remember their names, I was going 253 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 3: to accept that everything that happened to me actually occurred, 254 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 3: and that, again, as a Latino man, would make me cry, 255 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 3: and in this society, we are not allowed to cry. 256 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 3: And so instead of crying, I went to anger, and 257 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 3: so I was a very angry person. And so it 258 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 3: has taken me twenty years to really allowed myself to 259 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 3: remember them, to fill them up with their own lives 260 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 3: and their actions which helped me survive. And my biggest 261 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 3: fear was that I wasn't going to do them justice, 262 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 3: that I wasn't going to get people to care, not 263 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 3: about me, but about them because I haven't seen them 264 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 3: since June eleventh of nineteen ninety nine. 265 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 4: And I love that. 266 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 3: If you like, google my book, the first question is 267 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 3: have yet been reunited with Patrisa Carlentino, and the answer 268 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 3: is no. And I have gotten so many offers by journalists, 269 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 3: by people have given me pro bono offers to search 270 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: for them, but I've turned them down because I'm also 271 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 3: reminded that what I am writing is very difficult, and 272 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 3: I'm talking about trauma. And as a nine year old kid, 273 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 3: I remember things differently than nineteen year old Gino, than 274 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 3: thirty year old Patricia, then twelve year old Carla. Their 275 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 3: story would read a lot different than mine. And so 276 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 3: I can understand if they know that I wrote this book, 277 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 3: and if they are alive, and if they are in 278 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 3: this country, I can understand why they haven't reached out. 279 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 3: It is on their terms, not mine. 280 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: Coming up on Latino USA, I continue my conversation with 281 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: Jaber Samora. He talks about what he hopes the role 282 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: of poets and writers should be in these turbulent times. 283 00:18:26,960 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: Stay with us, Yes, hey, we're back. We're going to 284 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: continue the conversation now with Salvador and poet and author 285 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: Hibier Samora. Your personal decision to actually step away from 286 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: the places where you've lived, like in California, New York City, 287 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: in Cambridge, at Harvard or at Stanford. You made the 288 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: decision to actually go to Tucson, Arizona, just north of 289 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: the desert where you crossed into the United States. You've 290 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: not only gone back to that place, you're actually working 291 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: at Sara Vision, which is a nonprofit organization working on 292 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: the ground with asylum seekers, migrants, travelers, retourneys just like you. 293 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 2: So talk to me about the decision to go there. 294 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 4: I wouldn't call it working. 295 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: I volunteer. My job now is just to be a writer. 296 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 3: So whenever I have time, I volunteer with Salva Dision. 297 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 3: Sometimes I go across the border to work at the 298 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 3: Quinot Initiative, which is an Albertague, a similar albertgue that 299 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 3: gave me food back in nineteen ninety nine. And so, 300 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 3: having lived in New York City, having lived in San Francisco, 301 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 3: having lived in Boston, I think it is easy to 302 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 3: forget that people are still coming across the border, even 303 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 3: for myself, a person that came across the border and 304 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 3: almost died in the desert, and so as a survivor 305 00:20:52,359 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 3: of immigration, I think it was important for me to 306 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 3: be in the literal landscape in the Sonoran desert that 307 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: almost took my life in order to begin to build 308 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 3: happier memories. I moved there with the intention of only 309 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 3: being there two months. My wife and I in twenty twenty, 310 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 3: and we have no plans of leaving, and we don't 311 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 3: want to leave because whenever you go at the Tucson 312 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 3: Airport and you see somebody with a yellow envelope, that 313 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 3: means that's a immigrant who has just gotten refugee status 314 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 3: and they're taking the first flight of their lives, and 315 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 3: you get to witness that, whether you want to acknowledge 316 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 3: what's happening or not. But there are so many immigrants 317 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 3: at the airport, and that is something that I haven't 318 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 3: seen as much in other airports. So immigration is always there, 319 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 3: like I don't ever want to forget, and I did 320 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 3: trick myself into forgetting, but now I'm not allowed that privilege. 321 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 3: Immigration is all around me. That landscape that will stick 322 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 3: my life is where I live, and so for me, 323 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 3: it's very important to stay there as long as I can. 324 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: Last summer, you published an op ed at the La Times. 325 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: You were calling out the Pulitzer Prizes because of their 326 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: restrictions in their submission process, because they don't accept authors 327 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 1: who are not US citizens, and the Pulitzers had reached 328 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: out to you asking you to be a judge in 329 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: the competition, and that's when you found out that actually 330 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: you wouldn't even be able to compete for the Pulitzer Prize. 331 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: So you wrote that op ed, you started a petition 332 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: asking in general the writing community to demand that the 333 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: Pulitzers changed their position on this. 334 00:22:59,160 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 4: And have yet. 335 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: You know when you asked me to sign that petition, 336 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: you know it took me a moment because I wasn't 337 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: born in this country. I am a citizen now and 338 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: I did win a Pulitzer and I didn't think that, frankly, 339 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: that that even mattered when judging my work with that petition, 340 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: I have to say, have yet, I did something that 341 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: I never do, and that's that I added my name 342 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: in this case. I am public about it, but I 343 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: was very moved by what you were saying and doing 344 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: because you decided to take action and essentially call them out, 345 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: not just writing the op ed, but actually starting this 346 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: petition and rallying support. So why was it important for 347 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: you to do that? And in the end, what's changed? 348 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 3: First, So thank you for signing that petition and spreading 349 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 3: the word. It takes a lot to make it to 350 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 3: the table of power, and remember that you weren't there before. 351 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 3: And in my opinion, a lot of people forget once 352 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 3: there a loud into the power room, if we want 353 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 3: to call it that. And for me, it is always 354 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 3: important to just speak the truth. 355 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 4: You know. 356 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 3: If there's anything that my parents taught me is that 357 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: writers should be at the vanguard of change. We are 358 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 3: the dreamers of the future. We are the dreamers of 359 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 3: a present that we don't have, of rights that we 360 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 3: don't enjoy. That is our duty, at least in Latin 361 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 3: America or at least in a lot That's how it is. 362 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 3: That's how it was. And I don't know, I'm going 363 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 3: to sound like I don't know. I don't care about awards. 364 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 3: I care that everybody is considered because I am a 365 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 3: believer in equality across everything. What a word to do 366 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 3: is do this weird thing that they take people and 367 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 3: compare them to each other. And when you compare writers 368 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 3: and then you leave other writers out, that. 369 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 4: Doesn't make sense to me. And so as a. 370 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 3: Immigrant, somebody who is not a citizen, it is very 371 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 3: clear for me to call out stupidity. And it is 372 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 3: stupid to hold people accountable because they weren't born in 373 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 3: the United States or because they haven't pledge allegiance to 374 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 3: the flag. That doesn't make sense. And if you're really 375 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 3: about the art, if you're really about the writing, then 376 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 3: include everybody. And I saw calling out the Pulitzer that 377 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 3: was founded by an immigrant. You know, Pulitzer was an immigrant. 378 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 3: I think from Hungary. Full circle it is to call 379 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 3: that out, but not only for writers and writing's sake. 380 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 3: I think this is a moment to show the rest 381 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 3: of the United States and the world, because we are 382 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 3: in the Empire, that if something happens here, it shows 383 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 3: the rest of the world that it can happen there 384 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 3: as well. It shows the world that birthright doesn't matter, 385 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 3: It shouldn't matter, that we are all about humans for 386 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 3: who they are. There is and should be freedom of mobility. 387 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 3: That should be a human right. That it is, but 388 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 3: these quote unquote developed countries, these quote unquote first world 389 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 3: countries have forgotten. And that to bring a full circle 390 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 3: with awards, and once you get a position of power, 391 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 3: don't be a white man about it. You know, white 392 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 3: people left Britain and they said, oh, I can immigrate 393 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 3: and I can come here, But once they get here 394 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 3: and they get wealth, they're like, now I'm closing the door. 395 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 4: Nobody else can come in behind me. Don't be like that. 396 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 2: It's kind of like, why you're not that insecure? 397 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 4: Right? 398 00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 2: You're not that insecure? 399 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: So what ended up happening because of your work on 400 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: pushing the Pulitzer prizes. What they said is that they 401 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: expanded their eligibility to include permanent residents and quote those 402 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: who have made the US their longtime primary home. So 403 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: they have fallen short of openly saying that they'll accept 404 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: submissions from undocumented authors. Are you satisfied? No, So what 405 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 1: do you want the Pulitzers to do now? 406 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 3: Just to say that it doesn't matter? There are it numbers. 407 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 3: If they're so worried about. 408 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: Taxes, Individual Tax Identification gentification number. It's a way in 409 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: which you can pay taxes without being a citizen or 410 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: a resident of the United States. It's basically saying I'm 411 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: here undocumented, I'm giving you my address, and I'm giving 412 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: you my taxes. 413 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 2: So have you. 414 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: I couldn't not do this interview without talking about the 415 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: nWay weill Central America, the region that birthed you right, 416 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: And for those of us who were learning about it 417 00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: in the eighties, we were learning and reading the poet Oh, 418 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: it's the great revolutionary poets of Central America, like rocqued 419 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: Alton or Amala Libertad in Nicaragua, Giaconda Velli, Claribela Legrilla, 420 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: and these are poets that we understood. They were power brokers. 421 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: They understood that they wanted to change the world into 422 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: a just place. I'm wondering about this tradition of frankly 423 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: revolutionary tupaiste de la rechion. How you understand that experience 424 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: because you are, in fact a poet. 425 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: In the US. 426 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 4: I mean, I was born in the Saba. 427 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 2: But the activism that you're doing now is here. But 428 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 2: absolutely yes. 429 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 3: You know, in my country there's like Henra Prometida of 430 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 3: nineteen thirty five, Manueto and rocqued Alton, Clydevella, all those people. 431 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 3: And I think in the time that my parents grew up, 432 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 3: which is the seventies and eighties, everybody knew those writers. 433 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 3: And we come from a small but rich literary country 434 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 3: in which my parents have memorized poems, not any poems. 435 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 4: But radical poems. 436 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 3: And even though I immigrated, and even though most of 437 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 3: my life I spent in the United States, those are 438 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 3: my roots. Those are the things that I heard from 439 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 3: my parents. A writer, how I've understood it, and I 440 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 3: have of als understood it. A writer should speak truth 441 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 3: to power, should always imagine a better and brighter future. 442 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 3: And it is not ironic that, like all immigrants, I 443 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 3: had my assimilation phase in which I tried to reject 444 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 3: all things Latin America and all things Salvadorn. But what 445 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 3: took me out of that face was Ernesto Chayavada, And 446 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 3: ironically it was the Motorcycle Diaries, and it was around 447 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 3: the time that the movie came out to and in 448 00:29:54,600 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 3: that book, I learned that there is a richer, larger 449 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 3: history to us in our continent than the history that 450 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 3: gets taught by the winners, mostly white men, not only Americans, 451 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 3: but there's a lot of white men that have been 452 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 3: running our Latin American countries for far too long. And 453 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 3: so if that is my foundation, if I have the 454 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 3: privilege to live a long time, I want to continue 455 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 3: to speak for myself. And who I am is a 456 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 3: kid from a very small and often forgotten coastal village 457 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 3: that only had one asphalted road, and that road was 458 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 3: built because we grew cotton and we grew sugar cane. 459 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 3: Then we still grow sugar cane, ironically now for the 460 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 3: Bacardi Company. And so we have to be more than 461 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 3: just a place where people extract resources from us. We 462 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 3: should be the brightness and the precious stones and like 463 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 3: gems as human beings, and we should be considered as 464 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 3: important as our resources. 465 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: I love poets because you believe that with your words, 466 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: the few of them, not about length, but about the 467 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: power of putting words together and how this can really 468 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: change lives, change the world. And it's also a way 469 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: in which you help us to process an increasingly violent 470 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: world all around us. I'm thinking where you're from, it's 471 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: about the history, the profound violence, and more recently what 472 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: you've been talking about in terms of Palestine were calls 473 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: for justice, for calling what's happening in Palestine at genocide. 474 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: I wonder if you can help us understand what is 475 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: the role of poetry in processing the world that we're 476 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: living through right now? 477 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 3: You know, I just go back to a Palestinian poet 478 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 3: who was taken by the IDF and was released on 479 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 3: November twenty first, a few days after capture. 480 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 5: We begin today's show with the celebrated Palestinian poet Mossab Abutoja, 481 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 5: who was recently jailed and beaten by Israeli forces. He 482 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 5: was detained at a checkpoint in Gaza as he was 483 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 5: headed towards Rapha with his family. 484 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 3: He's just one of thousands of Palestinian prisoners that is 485 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 3: real jails, not only because of October seventh, but it's 486 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 3: a common practice by the Israeli state outside of the 487 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 3: United States and outside of the developed quote unquote world. 488 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 3: We're in the Global South. Poets writers are doing the 489 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 3: thing that I want poets to do in the United States. 490 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 3: Not that there aren't in poets like that don't exist 491 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 3: within the United States, but more should. And it is 492 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 3: very telling that the idef with nuclear weapons is afraid 493 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 3: of poets, of doctors, of writers, of thinkers of philosophers, 494 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 3: because you cannot kill an idea, you cannot kill the 495 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 3: want and the yearning for true freedom, for true liberation. 496 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 3: And so once they begin to do that, and they 497 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 3: meaning the people in power, the cowards in power, that 498 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 3: means that they. 499 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 4: Have already lost. 500 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 3: And everybody should remember what began to occur to some 501 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 3: on October seventh, but to most of us from the 502 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 3: global South, we understand that this conflict didn't begin on 503 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 3: October seventh, because we have lived similar conflicts where we 504 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 3: come from. 505 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 4: It's always violent. 506 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 3: There is always violence all around the world, and it's 507 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 3: at the hands of those in power. And as a writer, 508 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 3: we can begin to call that out and to say 509 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 3: stop and never again, and to truly mean those words, 510 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 3: and to say that we don't stand for violence. One 511 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 3: life doesn't matter more than the other. To turn it 512 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 3: back towards me again, as a previously undocumented person in 513 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 3: the United States, as a nine year old border crosser, 514 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 3: A lot of politicians and even presidents have told me 515 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 3: that my life doesn't matter as much as somebody who 516 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 3: was born in this country, and you internalize that and 517 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 3: you begin to believe it. And I want others to 518 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 3: never believe other people ever again, because our lives matter equally. 519 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 4: And I don't want. 520 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 3: Other little javiorcitos to suffer because somebody like me didn't 521 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 3: speak out. And it's our duty to speak out and 522 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 3: have your set, you have your seat test, have you 523 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 3: see you have to see this. 524 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: I'm glad that we're laughing for one quick moment, have you, 525 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: because I actually want to end the interview thinking about joy. 526 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: I mean, as a poet, you cannot live without joy. 527 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: So I want to ask you what do you do 528 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: to find joy nature? You know, I grew up in 529 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: a beautiful, beautiful country. You know. 530 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 3: I like to tell people that when I couldn't go 531 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 3: back to us at about it, I would watch Planet Earth. 532 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 3: I would watch it like in college, or like whenever 533 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 3: it came out. I think I even bought the DVDs, 534 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 3: and watching those DVDs, I had believed that things like 535 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 3: that didn't exist in my country where I was from. 536 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 3: And I remember there's this fish that walks across like 537 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 3: it can walk on land and go back to another stream. 538 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,280 Speaker 3: And the first time that I went back, when twenty eighteen, 539 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 3: I took a boat ride and lo and behold, we 540 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,439 Speaker 3: have those freaking fish in my coastal town. 541 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 4: And we have Arakari's. 542 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 3: We have our national birds at Torogos, was called the 543 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 3: mot Mott and it's the most beautiful bird. We have anteaters. 544 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 3: We used to have better soso sloths. And so this 545 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 3: is the world that I grew up in. Without a 546 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 3: color TV because I didn't have a color TV until 547 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 3: I was six. I had black and white TV. YE 548 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 3: had the Nature TV, so I had Nature TV. And 549 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 3: it was in nature, in that in my backyard where 550 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 3: brightness and colors occurred. And that has stayed with me. 551 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 3: And if you read the book, you know that is 552 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 3: my coping mechanism. And it became a coping mechanism in 553 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 3: the eight weeks that it took me to make it 554 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 3: to this country, and it has stayed with me. And 555 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 3: I am so happy that it has stayed with me 556 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 3: because I'm always that person that is looking up at 557 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 3: the trees looking for a particular bird. 558 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: Have yet thank you so much for spending some time 559 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: with me. I really appreciate it. I'm so glad that 560 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: you are in the world. I'm so glad that you 561 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,359 Speaker 1: made it to the United States, and I just want 562 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: to say thank you, which has as Yes. 563 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 3: Oh. 564 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,280 Speaker 1: That was Habir Samora, Award winning and best selling author 565 00:37:52,560 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: of the poetry collection Unaccompanied and the memoir Solito. This 566 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: episode was produced by Victoria Estrada, who was edited by 567 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: Marta Martinez and mixed by Julia Caruso. The Latino USA 568 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: team includes Renaldo Leanos Junior, Andrea Lopez Cruzsado, Filoni mar Marquez, 569 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: Mike Sargent, Nor Saudi, and Nancy Trujuio. Benilei Ramirez is 570 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: our co executive producer. Our director of engineering is Definitely 571 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,879 Speaker 1: le Beaux. Our marketing manager is Luis Luna. Our theme 572 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: music was composed by Zenia Rubinos. I'm your host and 573 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: executive producer Maria Jojosa. Join us again on our next episode. 574 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: In the meantime, look for us on all of your 575 00:38:53,719 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: social media. I'll see you there and remember note mayas Bye. 576 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 6: Latino USA is made possible in part by the Heising 577 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 6: Simons Foundation Unlocking Knowledge, opportunity and possibilities. More at hsfoundation 578 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 6: dot org. Michelle Mercer and Bruce Golden and Agnes gund. 579 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: Hibiid you and I were in a place together in 580 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: the summer of twenty twenty three, the Sun Valley Writer's Conference. 581 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: You were staying where my idol my guy earnest hemiway, 582 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: you were staying at his former house where apparently you 583 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: saw his ghost. 584 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 4: Right, I felt his ghost. 585 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 2: You felt his ghost